S3 Ep145: Tamla Horsford | Was This A Cover-Up? (Part 2)

If you work in university maintenance, Granger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip-off and Granger is your trusted partner. Offering the products you need all in one place, from HVAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more, and all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRANGER, visit Granger.com or just stop by for the ones who get it done. Hello everybody, welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Lavasser. So today we're diving into part two of the Tamela Horsford case and Derek and I talked about this a little bit on Crime Weekly news and we talked about it a little bit over the past week. Great response to the first part. Crazy blew up, went crazy. Appreciate you guys being here. It's such an important case. And like I said, I think that a lot of people saw it kind of come and then go and they didn't look deeper into it. I was one of those people, I'm sad to say. I'm so glad that I'm looking deeper into it now because there is so much there and we're going to talk about it today. People have been weighing in on the comments on the social media posts and also it seems, and I guess I'm just old, but what I'm seeing a lot in the comments, the reason that the video did so well, at least on YouTube, audio is different. And you may be familiar with this, but people are hyping it. You know what that is? I see hyping things, but I don't know what it means. So essentially, because I saw it and I'm like, what are we doing here? What is this? What's happening? And essentially you guys... Derek's like, why are you hyping me? Yeah, why are you hyping us up? And essentially, if you're watching on YouTube right now, you have the ability to hype the video for free. And by doing so, for smaller creators, which relatively speaking, we're a smaller creator on YouTube, you can hype the video, which allows it to be seen by more people. So if you feel inclined to do so, hype the video. And that's what happened on this last episode, which is why, compared to some of our other recent cases, this one did exponentially better because you guys basically promoted it. And that's what led to more exposure. So thank you for that. Now I know a new thing, hyping. Hyping is a thing. Hyping. Hyping on YouTube. If we show... For an audio, just leave a review, leave a rating, that's what helps get the... Or go to YouTube and hype. Yeah, I do both. How about that? Can we be greedy and just do both? Yeah. If you will hype us, we shall hype you. We will hype you, yeah. So we have a lot more to talk about today. We're going to dive into it. Is there anything you want to say before we do? No, I was trying not to be influenced by you guys because when you go read the social media comments, you guys are ahead of us or ahead of me, I should say. So I try not to be... I try to stay as impartial as I can. I think I did a pretty good job. So I'm right there with you in the story where we are, where we last left off. And I know I asked you, all of you, but specifically Derek, don't look into this yourself. So we can kind of unfold it. He didn't. And I know he didn't because I talked to him about it. So let's just dive right in. Let's go back to the morning of November 4th, 2018, when the body of Tomla Horsford was found face down in the backyard of the home of Jean Myers. Jean's quote unquote aunt, Madeline Lombardi, was the first person to see Tam. And the Forsythe County Sheriff's Office interviewed her formally on November 7th. Now we remember that Bridget Fuller, who I'm glad everybody agrees with me, is sketchy and off because I thought I was kind of being mean just because I get impressions of people and I'm like, ugh, I don't really like this person. Not saying she's guilty of anything, but... Well, that's the thing, right? Like it's one, you can acknowledge that she's off and not, you're not inferring that she's guilty. Like two things can be true here where you could agree that her approach and her mannerisms are suspicious as hell. And yet it may be unrelated to what happened at Tamla. So that's, that's where I draw the line as well. Like you can still feel a certain way about her and not think she's guilty of murder. I don't know where I sit on it right now, but I think anybody with half a brain would acknowledge that her behavior and her response to all of this, minimal, it's suspicious. Yeah. And just the, just the way she lives her life, right? Wearing a necklace with Xanax and giving them out like tick tax to everybody. We had multiple people in the comments on YouTube who were like, listen, I have severe anxiety and I'm someone who needs Xanax or something else at the ready, but I'm not walking around with a bunch of pills in my necklace. That's just not standard. Now, it feels very high school to me. Like, like I'm a girl in high school and I need everybody to know that I have anxiety kind of thing. Can I give my opinion? I per, and again, I have nothing to substantiate this. I'll steal your phrase allegedly. It seems to me like Bridget felt a little cool and she might have been the local who had a prescription to Xanax and would give it to her friends when they asked for it, when they went out. And you know, I've had, I've been in circles where, especially in like college where someone might have access to something and that's the person you go to. It seems like in her friend group, it was a known thing that Bridget had access to Xanax and she embraced that role by carrying it around in the necklace. That's just my opinion. I don't think she was doing that for herself. Like what kind of necklaces this? I would love to see this net, did it have like an X on it? Like what, what are we doing here? It was probably one of those like you see in the movies where it's a cross. I thought you had said it was a cross. I don't, that would be, if it was a cross, like you mean like a Sarah Michelle Galler's character and Cruel Intentions where she kept cocaine in her cross necklace? Yes. So maybe I was just, and maybe you didn't say it and I was just correlating the two, but you, I've seen multiple movies where it's like a cross necklace and they open it up. Squid games had something like that as well where they had like a necklace. I don't think it was a cross, but it opened up and it had like pills inside of it that, you know, you could sneak into different places and that would be wild to me. If it was a cross, I'm, I'm dead. Oh my God. That's next level. All right. So maybe I was just envisioning that and you didn't actually say it, but but that's what it reminds me of, right? That character and Cruel Intentions. She's like some high school girl. She thinks she's so cool. She's so dark and so edgy and she's like, yeah, I'm just known to have this cocaine cross necklace. I feel like it was probably an inside thing is like, did you bring the necklace Bridget? I feel like it was a thing. But anyways, Bridget Fuller, man, all I'm saying is if I was invited to hang out with Bridget Fuller, I would very quickly and wholeheartedly decline the invitation. Okay. This is a person I would not get along with. She feels uncomfortable around certain people. She feels uncomfortable. You know, I and she's, she's the mother hen and people only love me because of what I do for them because I clean up after them. I was on my laptop. I just couldn't even be. I looked at Jose and I was like, take this off my hands talking about a human person. Get out of here, man. Oh, you're just so elevated. You're so evolved over everybody else, but you're the one with the necklace full of Xanax. So anyways, Bridget Fuller, remember, she told the police that every time Tam went out for a cigarette, someone was with her. They never let her go out alone. Even though Jose said that he believed Tam had always gone out to smoke alone and he never saw anyone with her because he just always saw her coming back inside alone. So Aunt Madeline, she said that on the evening of November 3rd, she had made gumbo and she was encouraging everyone to eat it all night. And she said when the boys, Jose Barrara and Tom Smith came up from the basement at halftime, she told them that they could eat first, but then they had to go out and get ice because they were all out of ice and everyone was still drinking and mixing drinks. Now at that point, Madeline went outside with Tam and Stacey Smith. Tam smoked a cigarette, then Stacey got up and went back inside and then Madeline and Tam went inside. Tam then asked Madeline if there was any ice left and Madeline said she did have some. She had an old fashioned ice cube tray down in the basement. So she went and got that ice so that Tam could make a drink. Now the last thing Madeline said to Tam was that she liked her Dalmatian pajamas and then she went down to the basement where remember her bedroom was. Aunt Madeline lives in the basement. So Madeline said that while the guys were gone getting ice, she took a bath and then she turned on her TV and she watched it for a little bit until she felt herself getting tired and then she turned some thunderstorm nature sounds on using her Bose speaker. She said she used the Bose speaker because she could hear people upstairs. They were loud and she wouldn't be able to go to sleep with all that noise coming from upstairs. Madeline said that after that she never got up a single time, but she did turn the speaker down sometime in the early morning hours because at that point she was worried that maybe her Bose speaker might be bothering the people upstairs who were trying to sleep because she had it up so loud. Madeline said she didn't hear a thing all night. At around 8 30 a.m. she started looking at the clock thinking it was time to get out of bed and get going, but she lingered in bed for about 15 minutes before actually getting up. So that puts Madeline Lombardi getting out of bed around 8 45 a.m. and at that time she said she started getting things ready with her coffee maker which was downstairs in the basement. She talks about how the coffee maker is an espresso maker. So there's a bunch of things you have to do to make coffee. It's not just like a normal drip coffee maker. You have to empty out the grinds from the day before. You got to grind the beans, etc. etc. I went get the coffee maker started and I went stand by the window and I was just staring out the window and I saw those Dalmatian pajamas. Damn, but I couldn't remember her name because that was the first time I'd met her. So I didn't start the coffee. I got on my knees and I said a prayer and then I ran upstairs and I knocked on the door and I thought I heard water running and I thought maybe Jose and Jean were taking a shower. So I went downstairs because I was like thinking I should I shouldn't wake up. Maybe she's up. So I went downstairs and I looked out the window again and then it was just like I couldn't believe my eyes. I was saying saying inside my head she's not moving. She's not moving. So then I went knock on the door louder. You never went out there. You just went out the window, right? No. And that's when I told Jose that I knocked on the door. Jean said come in and he was sitting up in bed and I said Jose and I looked at Jean and I said I just want to talk to Jose. I want him to come downstairs with me and Jean said why? What's wrong? And I said your friend, your friend from the islands is laying in the backyard and she's not moving. And then that's when Jose went out and Jean went out right behind them. I don't even know which door they went out of. I came back in here and I guess we woke up Jean. Okay so Madeline said that Jennifer Morrell was sleeping in the only room on the main floor. Tom and Stacy Smith had been sleeping in one of the upstairs bedroom near where Jean and Jose's room was but they had left earlier in the morning because they had kids. We'll come back to that. Madeline said that at the point when she woke up Jose and Jean, Jennifer Morrell was the only person still there. Now we know that technically Tom and Stacy hadn't left that much earlier. According to them they'd left around 8 30 which was exactly when Madeline decided it was time to think about getting out of bed and starting her day. Now at this point in the interview with Madeline, you're going to hear another voice and it belongs to Jean Myers. I'm gonna start charging y'all a ring. Get out of my head. Look and I just went and got y'all gift cards. Oh what are you gonna be bringing them on? I told them I just made them cookies. But then I was told that shouldn't because then it could look bad if I give you something before the case is closed. Oh pretty bad way. So. And it's very stereotypical because I figure all cops would be like you don't. You may have something. Do you need me or can I go upstairs and get ready for this interview? Go do your thing. Okay. Perfect. All right so if just in case anybody couldn't hear clearly Jean says I'm about to start charging y'all rent. So she's implying she's been seeing a lot of these police officers. Yeah right yeah and these police officers are Mike Christian and Tyler Sexton. So she also says that she got the detectives Dunkin Donuts gift cards but then she was told she probably shouldn't give them the gift cards. Yeah probably a wise idea. But you know before the case was wrapped up because it would look bad. Right. Yeah I don't like this interaction. It doesn't mean they're guilty of murder but I just don't like the implication of it like the idea that hey this is already a foregone conclusion that this is going to go nowhere. We're not being looked at as persons of interest. We'll give you some gift cards when you're done concluding that this was a tragic accident. It's almost like an assumption is being made where it may be innocent but it doesn't look great and I least from so far in the story it seems like they weren't given any type of gift which if the police officers had accepted anything including a gift card when they're investigating a potential murder that ethically and morally would have been wrong and also against policy. So I just don't like the interaction. It's just it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah and she just seems very like flipping laissez faire about the whole thing. You know now when you wrap this up you know maybe then you'll get your gift cards. I know Dunkin Donut gift cards like donuts. I just don't like it's not even the gift cards more of just like the playful interaction like the familiarity. Yeah someone died in your backyard. Yeah and keep in mind this is November 7th. Yeah it's a serious thing. It's very soon. It's not it's not only just three days after one of her quote unquote friends died at her house but it's also the day of Tam's wake. Yeah she said can I go upstairs and get ready for this funeral. Get ready for this funeral. Now you hear Jean mention at the end she's like do you need me or can I go get ready for this funeral. It wasn't the funeral. It was the wake. In reality the funeral was the following day and and it's just like you know she's clicking around in her heels like hmm do you need do you need me. It's a familiarity and I feel like I think it was my Christian's voice where he's like get out of my head woman like you know. It's also the demeanor right like you're going you're getting ready for a wake. It sounds like kind of like a formality like ah I gotta go get ready for this wake. I gotta go get ready for this funeral. This funeral yeah I don't know. No somber yes. Right yeah like you're about to go to the wake of a woman who died in your home after your party. Right right I don't like it. I don't like it. And you can also hear that Aunt Madeline made the detectives cookies so these cops are being treated pretty well when they go to Jean Meyers home. Now you want to get off on a crime just give me some cookies. Now if the cops are accepting the cookies when they're there yeah what's that what's that feeling to you. Is that okay do you think. I just don't like it like I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm on this you know high horse where I haven't been in situations before where while interviewing someone someone else there may have offered me a drink or you know a cookie and I not even a cookie I don't think I've ever been a muffin cookie but something where maybe more than likely I declined but I don't want to get called out by a former guy who's watching this going yeah remember that time we accepted sandwiches listen if I'm trying to calm these people down and build a rapport with them where they open up to me as a tactic I may say sure let's yeah let's have some some cheese and crackers on the table whatever cookies I've ever had yeah these are great you know you get them to open up to you where they feel like your friend it could be a tactic so I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm I'm above them but I just don't love the overall the demeanor of it doesn't sound like they're investigating a potential murder that's what I don't like about it. So after this you're you're going to start hearing some sort of classical music being like blasted in the background I don't know what the classical music is from but if you asked me and I had to guess I'm pretty sure it's Jean playing this music while she's getting ready even though she knows there's two detectives in her home conducting an investigation conducting an official on the record interview of her fake aunt can I can I also put one more thing out there and we talk about this in all these cases as investigators when we go into a crime scene like this you start with worst case scenario it's always easy to dial back the investigation if evidence presents itself that would dictate that being a necessity but you go in there treating the crime scene and everyone involved as if this was a murder that's the top level and then if it doesn't appear to be that you can you know you can reel it in and go the direction you have to go but you can't treat it as an accident and then decide halfway through oh this might be a murder because now it's too late especially from a forensic from a crime scene perspective so I just don't like that this is this early in the investigation and there doesn't appear to be more of a seriousness at least on behalf of the investigators yes as far as their approach almost to set the the tone like okay you guys are treating this like a joke this is no joke we need you to know that a woman's life is gone yeah and we're here to figure why we're not here to eat your cookies and have and have playful banter with you you guys at minimum are all persons of interest right now and we want that to that we want that tone set at minimum you guys drop the ball here you're in you're drinking partying doing stupid and someone is dead not a laughing matter exactly so Madeline and Madeline she went on to say that Tam didn't seem really all that drunk or intoxicated on the night of the third she said Tam and another woman were actually having a really lucid discussion about how they were both from Florida and they've never changed their Florida's driver's licenses because they both love Disney World so much and having a Florida ID gets them a discount when they bring their families to Disney World and if you know how much it is to bring a family especially a large family like Tam's to Disney World you would absolutely support that decision I would do the same and she said this conversation was happening pretty late in the night in fact I believe the conversation was happening right before Madeline went to bed when they were out on the balcony but you know before she came in and got the ice for Tamla and she said Tam wasn't slurring or having a hard time keeping up Madeline was then asked if there was anything she could think of that the detectives didn't ask her is there anything that you can think of that I didn't ask you that maybe I should um yes what okay uh when Tam went out to a smoke pot I went out with did she smoke marijuana here yes okay that's fine yeah what time was that right um I guess from from in between the time that she arrived in the um the time that the game started okay somewhere's in between that picture okay yeah what else do you know I don't that's the only thing okay that's the only thing because uh to hide anything or try to conceal anything would be so deceitful and I wouldn't be able to lay my head on a pillow tonight because I've just been praying for God to reveal reveal some answers in this case because it's uh it's it doesn't make any sense well said it doesn't make any sense from a person who was there if that's not the overall feeling of this case and why people are so attached to it I don't know what is person from inside the building who was there that night saying it just doesn't make sense she's not the only person that says this by the way we're going to go into it but a lot of people at the party were like there's no way that she fell yeah they were there at the party and they're like no she didn't there's no way it doesn't make sense right as far as Madeline's interview again it's going off just basically voice analysis which I'm not an expert in but she seems to be somewhat truthful at this point appears to be composed appears to have some type of moral compass where she's like hey you didn't mention this but I think I should yeah because she was smoking pot with her right but and but now that and I was just going to say that that could be taken as covering your own ass or it could be like listen in spite of the fact that it's going to make me not look great I wanted to put this out there and I wanted to be truthful so I guess it could be taken both ways yeah but did you notice Derek she's like Tam went out and it was smoking pot and I went out with her she says I went out with her she didn't say I smoked with her do you notice there's no follow-up questions from the detectives such as like well when you went out to with Tam and she smoked weed did you also smoke weed yeah it should have been the follow-up question I took it as her way of admitting she was out there smoking weed with her without saying it like that's what I'm writing down when you're a cop that's not that you can't do that I'm writing it on my notepad it should have been a follow-up question but that's something where you'll have someone who is around for something like this and it's their way of kind of skirting the truth so I think that maybe that would have been a follow-up question but then John's ass pops back in and she's like screaming down to Madeline she's like are you picking up the kids and Madeline's like yeah you know I'll pick them up what time and she's like and John's getting all frustrated and then the police are like okay we're just gonna wrap this this interview yeah the music playing in the background super annoying to me I would as a cop I would have been like hey can you do me a favor can you shut the effing music off yeah I'm here trying I like I can't think what am I in a freaking am I in a Panera bread right now geez we could do this at the station as well you know that's also an option I'm trying to help you guys out and then do it in your home to make you comfortable and what are we what are we supposed to believe the genre is just so like classy that she's putting her makeup on and she's like I'm listening to Mozart yeah I know I don't I don't like that's what I listen to I don't like it but yeah no I mean it would have been a follow-up question it sounded I read between the lines where she's admitting I was smoking weed with her on the porch but yeah you could have confirmed it by saying this is what happened maybe she's using that those words specifically to try to give her self an out yeah and and first of all another follow-up question would have been to clarify the timeline which they didn't do because maybe Aunt Madeline sounds like she's being genuine to you but her timeline at this point is completely off because remember Madeline said Tam was smoking pot sometime after she got there and before the game started but we've already established that the game started at 8 p.m. and Tam didn't get there until after 8 p.m. so that timeline doesn't make any sense you know like she started she smoked pot sometime after she got there and the game started Tam didn't get there until about 30 to 45 minutes after the game started so what is what are you talking about yeah are you inferring that she was smoking before she arrived at the location like what it wouldn't know because she went out and smoked with her so the cops never clarify hey you you said that she she was smoking pot after the game after she got there and before the game started but in your first interview and earlier in this interview you said she didn't get there until later and the game had already started yeah these are questions you have to ask and it could be because there's something more nefarious going on or it could be what I've experienced a lot which is just people being horrible witnesses and not having any sense of time especially when alcohol and or drugs are involved it's a tough one but you that's why you have reoccurring interviews that try to nail down what actually happened and to see if somebody's story changes or their timeline changes which it did and you didn't follow up yep okay so Madeline is then going to be asked what does she think happened remember because the last thing you heard from her is this doesn't make sense let's take a quick break and then we're gonna hear from Aunt Madeline what she thinks happened this episode of crime weekly is brought to you by wild grain and I we love wild grain we talk about all the time they don't even need to pay us to promote this stuff it's one of those things that quietly upgrades your life without you even realizing it at first and it's definitely been elevating my meals wild grain is the first bake from frozen subscription box for 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or you can use our promo code crime weekly 30 and check out okay we're back from our break as i said before the break the detectives are like hey Madeline Lombardi you say this doesn't make sense what do you think happened well you know at first when when i saw her it was crazy i just thought why is she sleeping out there you know and then my brain was just like that's not a natural way to be sleeping what she was laying you know with her face down it was like that's not natural and then i started thinking it's cold out there that ground is cold right yeah and then after i i guess the only speculation i would have had is that she went downstairs and that she tripped over that metal piece because i'm tripped over that metal piece so after this Madeline was then asked well you know knowing what you know now which it's like why the hell does she know anything now she shouldn't know what the cops know but knowing what you know now what do you think happened and then as she starts to answer that's when Jean interrupts the interview again what do you know now what do you think happened it's a bathroom yeah it's a bathroom if you can yeah she can so you heard Madeline say or try to say before Jean just starts rudely yelling like are the cops still here yeah bitch they are man you were just here five minutes ago but anyways Madeline says it's baffling it's baffling yeah so the police never return to Madeline to let her finish her answer to that question Jean keeps talking and eventually you hear one of the detectives say we're ending the interview which they're probably overstimulated by these people by now all right so i want to go back to something we talked about last week which was Bridget Fuller's claim that when Tam was walking her out to leave Tam had mentioned also wanting to leave now Bridget is not the only person who talked about this because both Tom and Stacey Smith also mentioned this in their interviews with the Forsythe County Sheriff's Office Tom Smith was asked about how everyone was getting along at the party and he said there were no signs of friction he said Tam was not that kind of person she was nice to everyone Tom said he and Stacey had known Tam and her husband for about four years their boys played basketball and football together and one of Tom and Stacey's sons were pretty close friends with Tam's oldest son so out of all the people there that day i would say that probably Tom and Stacey Smith knew Tam the best and the longest so Tom said that within the last year Tam and Stacey had gotten a lot closer and he always knew Tam as a sweet person who was going to tell you the truth whether you liked it or not and she would do anything for anybody Tom also said that when he and Stacey left he was happy to see that Tam's car was still in the driveway and he was happy because quote we had talked about her driving or not driving the night before and i had mentioned to Tam that she should stay sleep it off and go back the next morning end quote Tom's wife Stacey said something similar in her Forsythe County Sheriff's Office interview remember Stacey Smith had known Tam longer than anyone else at that party she was also responsible for helping to plan the party and deciding who was going to be invited and she was also the one hitting Bridget Fuller up for Xanax the day that Tam was found dead Tam is kind of like the weekend before she had been in the house and she had had wine and i told her not to drive not drive driving and i mean i don't know what else you can do and she shouldn't have drove home and she did yeah and so i was very adamant about her not driving home and so Tom had told her you know he did not drive so when i got up the next morning i was so proud of her because i saw her phone and i saw her stuff there because i was terrified that she would drive all Tam's stuff sitting there her bag and her phone and i was so proud that she stayed and i figured she was sleeping didn't think to look in the room and i didn't right and i've kicked myself for that um for a lot of it i kicked myself for not going out with her and i i don't know it just broke some heart and then we left and got home and i got in the shower and my husband called to the answer the phone because Jean called and he just looked at me and said we gotta go back and he wouldn't tell me he said Tam's hurt yeah and then i came back and this has been a whole hot mess since i don't understand like i don't understand any of it i don't understand how it happened i don't understand how like i don't get it at all like i don't get how you fall off of the deck i don't understand like i mean i've looked at the pin on that deck a million times like i've looked and i've tried enough i don't understand i don't understand like i thought maybe if she was got sick or something and was vomiting and maybe she was leaning over maybe that's how she did it i seriously don't get it i don't understand any of it and i'll tell you we don't we don't either i wish somebody had a camera or or something just so we know but i mean how the stuff like this happened like this is just just free things happen i mean like you said and if she leaned over was trying to throw up or thought she was gonna throw up maybe she sat up on the rail and smoking or just who knows i mean she wasn't healthy out of it she was she wasn't acting sick she wasn't i mean you're laughing i mean like she was just not acting out of the norm like i mean and all she would i mean she would always tell us i can handle my alcohol i can handle my alcohol and i'm like well you can handle so much better than me because this girl's got to get up in the morning right and you know we had to actually get up i mean i'm just like i don't understand i don't i don't well that's what we're going back and interview and everybody's make sure we understand completely but you may not ever know exactly what happened but everything points that she went over that rail how that happened this the confusion and i know we had the gas tank because we tried to light the fire pit that night and we couldn't figure it out and i'm not sure oh i just i don't get it done because i mean that hosay said maybe she stood on that for some reason or i think we just all racked our brains just trying to figure out how this is gonna happen to our friend and now it's like all of us are like yeah no parties we're not no no i guess we're gonna all have to sleep in a palette if we ever do it go hang out again i just she wasn't acting sad or no angry or no i don't know just don't understand i don't understand how this happened in a sleepover like i get how you go to a restaurant people have drinks and then if they drop irresponsible i get how bad things happen like that but i don't get that and that was the goal of the whole thing was everybody's gonna be responsible and have fun and just and just be girls and that's what we wanted to do was be silly and laugh and dance and and we did i just i wish i would have went out there with her and not my her god by herself but i honestly did not know that she was that bad off i didn't know that she had i knew she had drank but i wasn't keeping up sure with it and so she had actually said you heard her say something about going outside right before you went to bed yeah she told me she was gonna have to smoke before she went to bed okay and i said okay we'll go outside smoke and go to bed i'm not a smoker yeah i'm like this anti-smoker actually and so she came up and i i mean she came up and hugged me and told me she was on smoke and so i somehow saw her sometimes just things happen there's just no explanation for it but you can't blame yourself it's hard all right so a couple things i'll make it short that i that stand out to me here first and i'm going to be really focusing on the investigators because that's why i was hoping so yeah that's why i'm here and this is not what you're supposed to do very simple i know right you're you're you're you're going over theories with a potential suspect i don't understand it i'm shaking my head as i'm watching it and i don't like it and i think in hindsight uh if these guys are on the up and up they would do that over again because putting out there what you believe happened that this was some freak accident you're giving them out you're giving them ammunition to use as part of a collaborative effort to hide something that may be more than just a tragic accident so that's number one but and also he's saying like you can't blame yourself you know like he's like comforting her what the hell is this i don't mind the comforting as much i i hate the the discussion of potential theories with with people who are witnesses at minimum i i hate that because now again at minimum you're influencing what they may remember that's not where you're supposed to do tell me what you know not what you believe that's the number what how often do i say that to you right and they're like we may never know we may never know and you're also telling them where you are it's your job to find out yeah there isn't a responsibility as the interviewer as the interrogator as the investigator however you want to put it to create a level of uneasiness where the person you're speaking with doesn't know what you know right so as they're sitting there if they have more to hide they're consciously wondering how much does he know right does he already does he already know what happened are they on to us so maybe they they'll they'll break but when you're just showing your hand basically saying we got nothing we don't know what happened we were still at cameras that puts them in a position of power i'm talking about the interview where they now know your grasp and that straws so that's one thing another thing that i want to address and we're going to get to it in the end of the series but as far as potential theories as we start to kind of break them down and the potential that they that's what occurred when we're talking about a freak accident it's still on the table of course but when we think about what could have caused her to go over for me at this point unless you throw a curveball at me and tell me that there was vomit underneath her body i've kind of ruled out the possibility that this was due to her throwing up over the railing because due to anecdotal experience i think every one of us out there has experienced this once in their life when you're going to throw up and it comes on out of nowhere unexpectedly if you're going to assume that she ran over to the railing because she had to throw up and the momentum carried her over the railing sure you're going to find vomit on the ground somewhere out in that yard that's basically as soon as she's running to the railing she's almost throwing up as she's running to the railing or leaning over it and so you would you would expect to find vomit on the ground the fact that you haven't found any of that at this point in the story i basically ruled that out as a cause as a reason for her going over if that's what occurred here so that's off the table for me the only other thing i wanted to mention which i kind of glanced over last episode not understanding the layout there is a photo of the balcony where you i think i referred to it as a table but if you look closer you can see that it's that's the grill that's the fire pit that they're referring to it's not like your traditional fire pit it's like a gas propane powered fire pit that we've all seen in the middle of a table that kind of goes up in the middle there and that's where you can see the propane tank near the railing itself so i just wanted to clarify that but that those are my initial thoughts and did you hear he asked her like well did she seem sad at all almost like suggesting maybe she intentionally threw herself off the off the balcony like what it's a fine line but again i don't like the questioning because you're giving them outs if they're trying to figure out a way to get you off the scent you're giving them options which i don't love at this point it should be more about gathering information not providing it but it's almost like oh he said at one point it was just a freak accident you know you can't blame yourself but then he's also asking questions to make it seem like well maybe she did this to herself what did she seem sad would you say it's fair to make the observation that early on initially during these first interviews the foresight county sheriff's office was not actually treating these party goers as if they were potential suspects or persons of interest i'll take it a step further they didn't treat this as a potential homicide period they were treating it as a freak accident which it might not be but as you have said multiple times you can't go into a crime scene or an investigation already ruling out something until you've investigated it is very possible to treat it as a homicide and gear it down you know transition to an accident it is impossible to start off as an accident and then transition to a homicide you can try it but i can guarantee you the investigation is going to be flawed and probably if it goes to trial you got no shot because you didn't treat it like it should have been at first so yes looking at what we've looked at so far and just listening to these interviews you can tell that the perspective of these detectives going in their initial thought was oh man tragic accident these poor people had to witness this how terrible for them and there's another option right maybe not a tragic accident that no one saw and everyone's confused maybe not an intentional murder but maybe an accident that more than one person at that party witnessed and they freaked out and tried to cover it up right we've heard multiple mentions of tam wanting to leave right how often have you or i or anybody else been in a situation where a friend or family member has had too much to drink and they want to go drive home or they want to go somewhere where you know it's not good for them and you're almost getting in a physical altercation with them to prevent them from leaving yeah like hiding their keys yeah all these different things we've all been there don't act like you haven't we've all been there they're all mentioning this right there could be the secret sauce but then they all go to bed and leave her alone which would have given her the opportunity to leave a perfect opportunity to leave of course someone would have been monitoring her at that point instead of going outside to smoke a cigarette she would have grabbed her keys and walked bridge it out the door and then like all right i'm going home i think it's an important point that you make where there's a gradient here it's a spectrum the bottom being a freak accident an anomaly a once in a lifetime thing that just happened to occur makes sense to nobody right the other end is a premeditated homicide right and then there's somewhere in the middle where it may just be a tragic accident but involved multiple people who are now trying to cover their tracks so they even you know i want to go back to and we had talked about this i think last night on the phone somebody said you said you saw a theory where tam had been walking down the stairs from the top level of the balcony down and that maybe she fell as she was going down the stairs there's no railing there or something like that there's no railing however there's also no dirt or anything on her white deletion pajamas except for that one spot on her butt so then that one spot on her butt it makes people say well what if she was sitting on the railing and then fell off i would venture to say why the hell would she be sitting on the railing when she's alone out there number one when there's chairs all over that balcony you can see them yeah wouldn't be a smart decision i would almost wonder because the the dust and the debris was wiped off the top of that oil tank or that gas tank the one that they keep talking about yeah they keep talking about that tank it was it was wiped off so the the tank itself was dusty but the top wasn't maybe she perched herself on that and she was sitting there and that's how her butt got dirty but i don't think she fell down the stairs because you'd see different areas of dirt on on her on her body and the the injuries on her shin or both of her shins they they wouldn't add up with that kind of fall because they do line up with that landscape divider i guess my question to you would be because you know more about it than me but just looking at the photos is it possible that she goes down the stairs she's injured significantly and there's not a lot of dirt on her onesie or her pajamas because for the most part she's kind of on that concrete pad before falling onto the the dirt itself which is after that landscape track that's there that madeline mentioned tripping on in the past is that possible i don't know if the injuries on her shin would be that extensive from a ground level fall onto that landscaping thing yeah and and also i i mean if she fell down the stairs you wouldn't assume that she would come to a landing at the bottom of the stairs on her feet right you wouldn't no she'd probably fall on her knees maybe even you know on her side or something like that and then she'd have to stand up again in order to like stumble to be able to fall over that landscape divider yeah if that's what happened here that would fall in the category of just a once in a lifetime thing now you and i were talking on the phone about this and then that's something i said where there are and in these cases are far and few between right it's not the norm where something did occur that is just an anomaly just like it's such a rarity it's almost hard for the human brain to comprehend because it's so unlikely but i think everybody out there would acknowledge that yeah those circumstances do exist so the question we all have to ask ourselves what do you mean what are you saying that she fell off the balcony unaided just accidentally in a freak accident for some reason that is like the anomaly you're talking about that would be one yeah and or or some other just perfect set of tragic circumstances where she did somehow go down the stairs because there was no railing and the injuries that were inflicted because of it left certain damage but not others that you would expect and due to a severe concussion and multiple fractures she succumbed to her injuries as she reached the the grass i again i'm acknowledging very unlikely so the injuries happened from the the injuries happened from the fall down the stairs down the stairs yeah and there's no blood there no blood no blood and these are things that you would expect right so i'm trying to stay balanced also no blood where her body came to rest yes allegedly well there wasn't a lot of lacerations from what you described to me right like it was a more internal injuries correct there yeah there were lacerations on her face yeah lacerations on her face but not significant right they were more superficial the injuries to her face yeah i i wouldn't call them superficial but yeah i i guess you're not going to leave a pool of blood you're not a pool of blood yeah but if you have this this hemorrhage that she had different types of hemorrhages would you think that given the time they believe it happened and the time that her body was found that some blood would come out of her mouth her nose you would expect it yeah yeah i think i think my bigger issue with this case is not so much in this in what we're speculating about kind of place to this which is why i'm bringing it up it seems like a lot of time was spent by the lead investigators interviewing potential suspects that they didn't treat like suspects i think there should have been a lot more emphasis placed on using her body to determine what happened right don't go to the people who could be involved biomechanical engineers pathologist people of that nature coming in and trying to recreate what potentially happened because once you figure that out then you know the line of questioning you want to ask so you haven't mentioned to me at any point during this story that some type of biomechanical engineer was brought in to recreate this crime scene to try to understand based on those injuries what potential theories are in play yeah to try to recreate the potential things that could have happened based on the injuries right that would have been the main emphasis of my investigation there's always an opportunity to go back and question everybody you still want to do it in a timely manner there should have been a documented history of investigators bringing in experts who could take her injuries and then give us a list of potential theories that would be aligned with her injuries and there wasn't and so that's that's a problem it seems like from day one they were kind of writing it off as an accident I mean even I agree I agree hardly she fell over the landscape divider and then the the ME was like no that's not possible it's more likely she her injuries are more consistent with falling off the balcony and my christians like okay then that's what happened and the and the number one question I would ask is was the pathologist out at the scene no they were not and and from what I understand I personally believe pathologists are great you need a biomechanical engineer I think there was somebody from the ME's office there but not the person who did the autopsy because my christian had to explain to them like how high the balcony was and this isn't that yet I know I'm gonna say it a million times biomechanical engineer all day long to tell based on the body how it works how the hinge points are where she was found what's around the area what potential theories are we looking at what are physically possible right not speculation not conjecture what theories are actually possible based on how the body moves simple it sounds like common sense but bring someone in let them tell you yep based on her injuries based on how she was laying this theory is possible that theory is possible this one's possible that wasn't done okay so we we heard from stacy smith she's seems very broken up about this she like aunt madeline she's like how could this have happened I don't understand it doesn't make sense and this is also the same interview where stacy admitted to having a puff of tam's weed even though remember she's I I'm so against smoking I miss non-smoker you know she's very much like Bridget like I would never drink I would never act like a fool and stacy said that marcie and aunt madeline may have also smoked the weed because they were out on the balcony with tam for a long time while she was smoking now this is interesting because earlier madeline said that it was stacy who was out on the balcony with them and stacy's like well I was out there for a minute but marcie was also out there and it's just everybody's kind of trying to like act like their you know mother chorises in this so then stacy was asked how much tam had to drink and earlier in the interview she had told the police that when tam got there and opened the tequila she smelled tam's tequila and she was like oh this smells gross it was it's too much for me so stacy stuck to her vodka and sprite stacy also said quote there was a lot going on with that bottle end quote meaning I guess that she didn't really know how much tam had consumed of the bottle or who else may have you know had tequila from that bottle yeah that's my interpretation yep yeah she also mentions that she knows that marcie took at least one shot from the tequila but other than that she didn't really see anyone else drink any tequila so like I said stacy seems really at a loss for how this could have even happened she doesn't understand how someone can just fall off a balcony like that the police detectives seem equally confused they actually say I don't know if you heard it but they're like yeah we don't get it either oh yeah they're like I wish we had cameras insinuating we got nothing yeah now I want to ask you because obviously all of these interviews are happening days after the incident and clearly all the people at the party have had a chance to talk and speculate about what could have happened and we know that because stacy mentioned the propane tank and how jose said maybe she stood on that for some reason and they were all racking their brains now given how things went down and also given how the police are admitting to stacy that this does not seem like an open and shut accident should the people present at the party have been allowed to talk so extensively before sitting down for formal interviews with law enforcement no you would have advised them to keep your distance until we have an opportunity to speak with you ideally in a perfect scenario there would have been a reconstruction going on at the house almost immediately right bringing people in who are impartial witnesses who are experts in those field recreating potential scenarios to see which ones were more most likely based on the injuries to tam's body at the same time if again perfect world simultaneously you would have taken initial interviews from each and every person there understanding that at minimum their witnesses but they're also potentially suspects so you'd want those two things going on at the same time but preferably i would like the reconstruction to be completed and have those results so that i can use those tools to my advantage during the interview process okay so we're going to talk about this later but according to a neighbor all of these party people went back to john mires house like every day for two weeks after this happened and they were all talking all the time yeah and you could look at that multiple ways but at minimum now you're getting you're muddying the water right you want independent accounts of what occurred and now they're hearing from other people and that could influence their perspective on what they remember and how they remember it so on one end it's bad from a witness standpoint on the other end if there's some type of collaborative effort going on to cover something up now they're getting the opportunity to kind of tighten up that story and make sure it aligns so let's say there's not a collaborative effort let's say one person at that party did something wrong let's just say it's hose for example sake okay hose goes outside after everyone goes to bed him and tam have a thing let's say allegedly he makes a move on her she she's mad he pushes her not me need to push her over the balcony she falls and now hose and the days after this happens she could have also pushed off of him yeah maybe but he's talking to everybody and he's like well maybe she stood on the pro painting from a witness standpoint of all these people now accurately telling the police the events in the timeline of that night that's muddied the waters by the one person yeah by the one person who has something to cover up and he's in everyone's ear like well maybe this could have happened and maybe this could have happened of course yeah so that's interesting shout out to the traders uh that's kind of the same thing right where you have traders there that are they're basically the murderers right amongst the faithful and they're spreading stories and rumors and all the sudden the faithful are regurgitating those stories believing that it's something they heard or saw at the round table again if you're not watching the traders you have no clue what I'm talking about but it's the same thing it's the same thing where you're right they can poison the well and now these other witnesses are relaying this information to law enforcement as if it's from their perspective as if it's from their perspective but it's not they don't even know that it's not completely agree yep absolutely and maybe that's where some of that confusion comes in right so in her interview with the georgia bureau of investigations so this is after the foresight county sheriff's office have closed out their whole investigation and then you know gbi takes over when when everyone's like this needs to be reopened so this is her interview with the gbi john mires also said that tamla wanted to leave the night of the third she said that when everyone started getting ready to go to bed tamla said she was going to go home that she felt okay and she was okay to drive right and john told tam hey you might feel like you're okay but you're not you wouldn't pass a sobriety test none of us would you know they're all convincing her to stay and john said that tom and stacey who were close to tam convinced her to stay in that drive home which we've heard pretty much the same thing from tom and stacey however i do want to take a closer look at the timeline in question because there's some things that don't add up and there's some things that were said in initial interviews that came out in further interviews and then interviews with the gbi that don't align with what was said in the initial interview so we're going to do that but let's take a quick break this episode is brought to you by iq bar our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor iq bar protein bars iq mix hydration mixes and iq joe mushroom coffees are the delicious low sugar brain and body fuel you need to win your day yeah and i feel like there are two types of people right the ones who have their day perfectly planned out and then the rest of us even if i try to plan my day out it never works and an everyday's chaotic and on those chaotic days which is every day if i don't have something easy on hand which i don't because i didn't plan it i end up making terrible food decisions and that's why we love iq bar it's just simple you grab it and you're good yeah and if 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office deputies that he and john went to bed around 1 30 a.m in her interview with the foresight county sheriff's office on november 9th 2018 john said that it was around 1 a.m when they started getting jennifer morell in bed because remember jen was wasted and everybody had to take care of her and marcie was getting jennifer morell to bed on the first floor and then everyone else went upstairs leaving john jose tom stacey bridget and tam downstairs on the main floor so around 130 john said she was going to bed because she was tired and tam started talking to stacey telling stacey that she was going to sleep with her and then stacey's husband tom said no she's sleeping with me john said bridget was there and she either made tam a bowl of gumbo or tam made it for herself and then bridget had called her husband gary to come pick her up john said that tam walked bridget to the front door because the door log shows the front door opening and closing at 147 a.m and so john assumed that this was bridget fuller leaving now foresight county sheriff's office spoke to jose on november 9th 2018 and remember we talked about this last time he said he turned the tv on in the main level bedroom for jennifer and marcie around 1 a.m he then went down to the basement to get his cell phone charger and when he came back up from the basement he saw tam in the kitchen he said he saw her by herself in the kitchen and then he went upstairs and this would have been about 130 a.m now unlike what we may have believed and what we were kind of led to believe during the the initial round of foresight county sheriff's interviews jose and john did not go upstairs to bed together at 130 a.m it was kind of made to seem like john and tom and stacey were talking to tam in the kitchen and bridget fuller was making gumbo and then jose ran down to the basement to get his cell phone charger and then when he came up he and john went up to bed together but that's not really what happened according to john's interview with the gbi so this is not her foresight county sheriff's interview this is her later gbi interview they initially did go upstairs together and they were talking to paula because paula's sleeping on the the upstairs where john and jose sleep but then jose remembered he needed to get his cell phone charger so he went down to the basement leaving john on the second floor of the house the bedroom floor now there is one bedroom on the main floor and that's where marcie and jennifer morrell are sleeping in that one bedroom on the main floor and that's also the floor with the balcony with the kitchen and the balcony yes around 1 1 30 to everybody kind of go to bed at the same time then yeah we all went to bed about the same time i went up stacey went uh stacey and tom went up paula was up jose and i were up there because we were actually in the room talking to paula about some other crazy stuff and uh jose said i have to get my charger when we all went upstairs bridget was cleaning she had heated up my aunt had made gumbo and stuff she was heating up gumbo so when i went upstairs bridget was cleaning the kitchen tam was sitting on the other end of the island eating a bowl of gumbo and she just bridget said gary's on his way and tam said i'm gonna eat this and then i'm gonna have a cigarette and then i'll be up we were upstairs jose said oh my charger's in the basement or something and he said he went down i saw him go down and then he came right back up there was like not a delay or a lag of him coming to bed and we finished talking to paula and we were talking about stuff jen her behavior and then went to bed and that's it okay so as far as your concern jose like the time it took him he went straight down the basement got the charger and came back up yeah he was pretty quick to go down two flights of stairs and come back um did he get up at all during the night no how about you did you get up at all no i get medley i was drinking i wasn't it wasn't like i passed out i went to bed right did jose say anything like when he came back up do you know if bridget was still there when he came back up she was i think so i think he's like bridget still cleaning or something like that yeah you can see what the investigator's trying to do there and by the way that's a good because it's the gbi yeah this is a good interview you can clearly see the difference in quality right it's very matter of fact it's to the point and there are also you can tell what they're trying to do and even even john can tell what she's trying to do right she's trying to isolate everybody to put down an opportunity where jose or somebody else was alone with tam exactly that's exactly what she's doing here these she's asking those questions to say hey was there ever a window even if only for a couple minutes where jose was unaccounted for by anybody bridget already being gone jose being downstairs alone with tam so you can see what the investigator's doing here which is what they're supposed to do now did you hear what john said because according to john when jose came back up he told her that bridget was still there and she was still cleaning yep which is critical to this case because that would give jose and alibi right he more than likely if he had went outside with tam bridget is the last person to see tam alive if tam is the one that walks bridget out the door before she leaves this would align with the timeline of bridget leaving at 1 47 a.m and being the last person to see tam alive if jose was upstairs and going to bed by 1 30 correct okay however those who have an issue with these contradicting statements point out that jose never told the foresight county sheriff's office that he saw bridget when he came back up from the basement he said he only saw tam in the kitchen and if that's the case these people say maybe jose came up from the basement after bridget had already left meaning he technically would be the last person to have seen tam alive pretty important right yeah so if if tam walks bridget out and bridget left at 1 47 a.m and she walks bridget out and then she goes back in the kitchen and she's eating her gumbo right and then jose comes up from the basement suddenly this changes the the dynamic game yeah yeah and this would be a simple question to ask bridget what it what would be a simple question to i mean how would bridget know if she left after jose came back upstairs but my my point being if jose went down to the basement and then on his way back up he sees bridget and tam in the kitchen and then goes up to the upstairs and says yeah bridget was downstairs cleaning still yeah yeah the interview with bridget would be hey while you were out there with tam making the gumbo cleaning up did jose come up from the basement and headed back upstairs and if she says yes i saw him come up from the basement he had his charger and then he went upstairs that would corroborate his story especially if john tells us he never went back downstairs after that so if she if bridget lays out the timeline that yes jose came up from the basement i saw him he had his charger and then a few moments later tam walked me out then that would corroborate his story well i'm gonna look for that in the interviews yeah you know it makes sense right yeah and i will come back to that but now if she says i never saw jose jose got a problem yeah i want to see if the gbi asked bridget that that would be interesting would seem like a commonsensical question right you're trying to verify jose's story if he said he saw bridget and tam well then bridget and tam would have saw him but listen jose and john went upstairs to bed and they were talking to paula and then that's when jose was like oh shit i forgot my cell phone charger downstairs and that's when he goes downstairs so bridget could have technically seen jose go upstairs and not knowing that he had come back down after right well yeah that that's what i'm saying so that would that would ruin jose's story because he's saying bridget was still there but if bridget was already gone then how would that happen am i are we saying the same thing yes i i mean yeah but i'm saying bridget could technically tell gbi oh yeah i saw jose go upstairs right but that would you're saying that would have been the first time yeah it could have been the first time and then she left and that's why when jose came up from the basement and he told foresight county sheriff's office i only saw tam in the kitchen yeah i mean it would be this is just a this would there's wishful thinking if bridget was able to to tell you yeah he had his charger cord his block the charger block in his hand that would obviously be a slam dunk that would help but what's the chances she's gonna remember yeah that she would remember and also who's to say that she would even say anything that would implicate jose who is somebody that she actually likes and his friends with right if it means if she thinks he's genuinely innocent and she doesn't want to say something that might potentially make him look not innocent because she believes he's innocent and she doesn't really like tam well let's take it a step further right john who is in a relationship with jose if you're to believe that jose somehow involved she's saying that jose came back upstairs and he never left the room fast yes if jose had gone back downstairs to put tam to bed and there was an accident where she's she doesn't want to go inside she wants to leave and jose is struggling with her and there's an accident how do we know jose didn't confide in john and say oh my god i'm going to go to jail for this and now john's covering for him so there's that's why you got to rely on the science that's why i keep going back to reconstruction everybody in that house has an incentive to potentially lie so we can't base off anything off word deducing from this off witness testimony because we're talking to witnesses who could also be suspects and also john might not even know because like she said well like i didn't like pass out or anything but i did have have stuff to drink i had some drinks yeah yeah so you fall asleep when you're drunk are you gonna notice yeah are you gonna notice if jose gets up after that at any point no i mean that's also possible but it like it would make more sense to me if we had a crystal ball and we were able to see what happened if i told you that john knew what happened and she was covering for jose because it was an accident and she didn't want to see the person she's in love with go to prison for a crime he didn't commit would it be reasonable to assume that she that she lied to law enforcement to help him no that wouldn't be great you wouldn't go oh my god i'm clutching my pearls i'm so surprised no yeah so i mean i think there are people even watching this channel who might say if we pose the question yeah i would do the same you know i mean so that's also on the table here there's so that's why i like if you thought it if you thought it was an accident and you thought yeah yeah if you but yeah that's how you justify it i'm lying to law enforcement not because jose is a murderer but because he was trying to help her he was trying to get her to bed and something went south now is that what happened no maybe that's what jose told her you know so there's so many scenarios here which again is why you gotta rely on the science not the testimony all right but let's go back to that very very slim timeline okay yeah so it's a small window of opportunity so there's a book by a woman named michelle graves michelle was tam's very close friend michelle was able to get the entire case file through a FOIA request and she wrote in her book search for the truth that the garage door opened and closed multiple times between 1 32 a.m. and 1 40 a.m. and john couldn't really account for why this had happened because remember everyone was going to bed at that time apparently according to john most people were upstairs by 1 30 now this was not included in the police investigation but there is body cam footage where john was asked about the garage door and she suggested that jose went out to get water from the garage and jose says who me because reportedly at that time according to jose he was getting his cell phone charger from the basement he was not getting water from the garage additionally john had told officer wall drop on the scene that bridget had left out of the garage door at 1 40 a.m. and then one of john's attorneys provided a letter to the gbi stating that bridget left through the garage door at 1 40 a.m. and we know she didn't she left out the front door so john was asked extensive questions about these time discrepancies along with information about her camera system and who may have had access to these things during her gbi interview let me ask you about what kind of switch gears a little bit your cameras which i know this has been a i camera they were chargeable arlo cameras they're not ones with batteries um i had gotten them when i was going through my divorce because my ex-husband come in the house when i wasn't there we were on good terms i have given my arlo login and password because they sent emails when they're um when they're dying or you need to set 10 percent or an outstanding recharge them and my aunt and her cleaning and organizing had misplaced that charger she didn't realize that it was for those cameras she just saw that it wasn't an apple and we all have apples so we don't know where she had put it and since things were fine with my ex and i i really wasn't concerned you know about what time it was that you were like around the time of like what month whatever that you were looking for the charger and couldn't find them i want to say probably august but i think the police for scythe county got the emails and everything okay i've turned all that over but i i want to say august okay so here is a screenshot of the email that john sent to mike christian of the four side county sheriff's office on november 19th 2018 the email says quote mike this is the last one i have i must have deleted the others i will see if i can somehow recover them i am not tax savvy if you would like to have a person or detective research it end quote and then she goes on to give the web address along with her username and password for the arlo camera system now the email sent to john from arlo happened on august 18th 2018 the subject says your arlo battery is tired and reads quote uh oh john your arlo is running low on battery you've still got about 15% of juice left but in order to maintain uninterrupted peace of mind we recommend charging up the device as soon as you can end quote so we had talked about this a little bit and you were talking about the cameras last time and what kind of batteries they took and so according to john they were rechargeable and because her aunt madeline just cleans everything so much the charger was misplaced and she couldn't find it and so she was getting emails saying hey your your camera battery is about to die but at that point her and her ex-husband were fine again so she wasn't really too concerned about recharging the cameras well first off as we're starting to narrow down potential scenarios even online i haven't seen much mention of a some type of premeditated murder right if this is a homicide i feel like what happened here was probably in the moment right and and so for these cameras not to be charged if we're believing that this is somehow connected to what happened to tim we would have to believe that they intended on killing her and they let those cameras run out intentionally i haven't seen anything to suggest that that this was the motive behind having this get together but am i going to sit here and say with 100 certainty it's not possible of course not i never do but when it comes to the cameras it seems like an innocent an innocent mistake and if there's anything that we collectively can take from this don't buy battery battery operated cameras like if i don't care what brand you go with we have recommendations for what systems we think are the best we've talked about simply safe numerous times on this channel i'll tell you with my personal security system without giving you guys too many details i have a bunch of hardwired cameras however there was there is one specific camera that i got with my set that's battery operated and i'm very disciplined about charging it because i'm a freak about those things but i will tell you if there's ever been a lapse or a day or two where that camera wasn't working it's because i didn't get the chance to charge it so for future reference if there's anything you take out of this case that's just you can apply to your own life make sure you don't buy the battery operated cameras i don't care what brand it is you're gonna forget it's gonna create a lapse in in the timeline not what you want in your house but i guess my question to you would be stefanie do you believe there's more to this do you believe that there's it's too much of a coincidence i think there is more to this because john says this is the last email i have and it's from august of 2018 so august time or something about three months before three months yeah so the cameras were up and running for about let's just call it two and a half months if they died after that 15% yeah i looked it up and they said that the arlo camera system about 15% battery would get you about three to four weeks so that would mean that at some point after that august 18th email arlo most likely sent her another email being like uh oh john you're at five percent you're at 10% you're at five percent uh oh john your your cameras are completely down now you are no longer protected anyway and john is saying oh i will see if i can you know get other emails i must have deleted them i'll see if i can recover them i guess my question would be if you know that the cameras are not operating well what's even the point in having them or did they charge them back up at some point after that august 18th 2018 email from arlo but then they deleted the emails that were saying afterwards like uh oh john in september you have 85 battery or you have and they just didn't want those emails to be seen by the police well yeah it's a it's a great question and one that would be answered very very easily that's a cloud-based system arlo has the ability to tell you how much battery life is left on the cameras themselves hence the reason they're able to send those emails they would also be able to tell you if they were recharged at any point because once you recharge them you no longer receive those notifications so i again would not take the word of the people involved as the investigating agency i would have gone to arlo i would have issued a subpoena a search warrant by a judge to determine the activity on those cameras not go off some email provided by persons of interest so you go to arlo and you find your answers right so here's the thing john gives the foresight county sheriff's office my christian she gives him her arlo username and password yep that email that she sent him is included in the case file as far as i can tell there's no follow-up with the foresight county sheriff's office of whether they signed in and actually followed up or just took her word for it if they didn't sign in it's a again a misstep and a egregious misstep because you could easily confirm not by logging in because you again i don't know if things can be deleted on that end i would go directly to arlo and i would have an administrative subpoena or search warrant issued where arlo would provide me with any activity on those camera devices for the past four months and we would easily be able to determine within a day or two after getting those results back if those cameras were last charged on the date in question and probably the gbi wanted to do that but the fact of the matter is they are investigating this a year and a half later and as we know from cloud-based systems that data may have been deleted it may have been overwritten i hope that wouldn't be the case i don't have the answer to that i would like to think that they would still have it but you're right it could be like a three month window before that they can no longer retrieve that data well here's some more questions that the gbi had for john which when we're done listening to this i want you to tell me whether you think the gbi went to arlo or went to arlo and were unable to get the data and that's why they're asking these questions and all the other times on the door that was all from the xfinity security system okay so those are two different systems yes ma'am that was more to monitor my kids not sneaking out and all the xfinity passwords and everything i've turned over also because when we tried to call um i'm sure you've seen the first day screenshot of the times yes the first page in that binder um when we tried to call like later that night or the next day my christian and i had talked about getting a length more in depth picture of times everybody left but i could only pull up 30 a day like after 30 i believe was the number that then you have to go on the site or request it and so that's why i had given them the password and the login information for that so they could see exactly to match up the times i guess that the other people said they left okay i don't know if you know the answer to this question because there's been some discrepancy with the times and i know the time changed i know i know the time changed that night which makes it even more complicated um do you know if xfinity does that do they automatically update that time or i don't i don't because that's the screenshot from that night because that shows when she went out and then that's Bridget leaving and that's Bridget putting leftovers in the garage for her so i don't know i don't know i can't answer that who all had access to your arlo stuff like who got notifications me do you have access to that like have your passwords and stuff i don't know you mean before all of this yes yeah just what about the xfinity door time stuff you're the largest um was jose aware of did he have access to any of that was he able to log on to any of that or check your cameras anything like that did he know that your cameras weren't recording at the time do you know you had told him that they weren't they he had helped me try to turn the house upside down to look for the dang charger yeah so it's uh it's clear here they they weren't able to go back and and obtain documentation from arlo or xfinity to confirm any of this it's too much time has passed this at least is what appears like because in this interview you would have asked these questions and then you would have provided the documentation to say hey john it's interesting that you say this and that your cameras were last charged at this point because you know i have data from arlo saying that your cameras were charged after that days what do you think what do you think about that were you aware of that there would be follow-up questions to try to see if they had an answer for it so yeah unfortunate that's the case but if you will notice there's a common theme as far as my investigative approach which is whenever you have witnesses that you're relying on i try to take it out of their hands and rely on science and technology because that is impartial it's unbiased and it's going to tell me exactly what it can make out of the evidence that i have when you're relying on people they have the ability to be deceptive depending on their intentions depending on their motives so unfortunately with force scythe they clearly didn't do their job just from an investigative perspective and gbi is trying to play catch up with half the pieces to the puzzle that's my assessment up to this point in the story okay so just to clarify the arlo camera system was just the cameras and when she's talking about xfinity that's the system that's keeping track of when the doors are opened closed etc there are two separate systems that would be your magnetic sensors on the doors windows glass break sensors motion sensors depending on the system they had now it's interesting because the gbi agent is asking john did anybody else have access to your arlo camera system yeah the ability to delete things did hosei she's specifically asking about hosei and john is saying no and she also says before this you mean which leads me to kind of believe that maybe he did have access at the point that they're having this interview or at some time after that which means he could have had access before she just isn't going to admit to it however it's interesting because the gbi agent also says did hosei know that the batteries on your cameras were dead and john says yes well he was helping me look all over the place forward in august which is interesting because if we go back to that 911 call hosei says to the operator well there's cameras so you know it might have picked something up why would he say that if he knew the batteries on the camera were dead yeah see that to me is a compelling point right that is something that you can go back and you can cross reference and and you have now someone who's on his side and john telling us that hosei knew the cameras weren't working so why would he make that statement which i think was a slip up for her yeah she wasn't thinking about it correct and so hosei if you're looking at hosei you could take it as he's putting it out there as if he's under the belief that oh we have cameras we'll be good to go when he damn well knows that they're no longer working and he would be one of the few people who were the present that night that would have known those cameras weren't working not good for hosei from that perspective and so i guess another question would be if everyone was upstairs and going to bed by 1 30 a.m who was opening and closing the garage door between 1 32 and 1 40 a.m. that would have been tracked by the xfinity system and yeah and why were they doing that now john said something in this interview about bridget putting the leftovers in the garage refrigerator but if that was the case she didn't say that to foresight county sheriff's office so too much time had passed to verify that like they can't just open the garage refrigerator and see if there's actually leftovers in there or ask bridget if she put leftovers in the garage refrigerator and it would really only explain the garage door opening once and bridget has talked to the police several times and i don't remember her saying anything about going into the garage to put leftovers in the refrigerator there we heard her talk about it she said yeah she was eating her gumbo and then i was cleaning and then gary got there and then i walked out the front door tam walked me out and i left yeah so when did you i feel like that is something that bridget fuller would have put in like i was so responsible such a mother hen i made sure that the gumbo was wrapped up and and put in the refrigerator so it wouldn't go bad because everybody else was too drunk and acting like a stupid fool to worry about that and i didn't want that good gumbo to go to waste that's just who i am that's just who i am and just and just for clarification from not only myself but anybody listening or watching when you say garage door are you referring to the garage doors themselves or the door that leads to the garages the door that leads from the house into the garage okay that's what i was assuming but i didn't want to i didn't want to assume anything without getting clarification yes so there's this huge discrepancy of if everyone's tucked away in bed by 1 30 am like hosey said like john said like stacey said like tom said who's going in and out of the garage what are they doing this is multiple times i also want to add in there and this is anecdotal but i i'd like to get your opinion on it and also everybody listening and watching right now as the host of a party like this i know me personally i'm going to be the last one to go to bed i'm not leaving strangers or people that i have over in the kitchen to kind of fend for themselves i'm going to kind of be the overseer where i'm going to make sure everyone's tucked away everyone has what they need and then once everyone's down for the night i'll shut off the lights make sure the doors are locked and then i head up to sleep is that crazy for me to say that no especially if as john is claiming she watched tam take a bottle of tequila to the face that night and tam was trying to leave and everybody had to talk her into not leaving and now tam's like uh don't worry guys go up to bed i'm just going to have a cigarette and then i'll be up there too because remember tam was supposed to sleep on the second floor or the you know the the bedroom floor with everybody else because there was only one bedroom on the main floor and drunk as jennifer morrell and marcie were in there so wouldn't you have at least made sure that that last guest who was apparently according to you one bottle of tequila in make sure she's she's down for the night and so drunk and make sure she she's down for the night so you know she's not driving home but also you have a security system you want to make sure the doors are locked you want to make sure everyone's safe now it could be just a lapsum judgment but my common practice is i'm the last one to go down i want to make sure as a host everyone's all set everyone has what they need to sleep everyone's comfortable and then i can secure the building and make sure everyone's safe for the night yes exactly so now we are going to come to something that you asked me last week you said you would be curious to know if the police had talked to the neighbors and i will say that the foresight county sheriff's office did not talk to the neighbors yeah that's terrible but from this clip of john's gbi interview it seems that the gbi did did you ever tell anybody that you had a video of her following no absolutely not you didn't tell any of your neighbors that no i don't even talk to my neighbors that's funny did you talk to any of your neighbors after this happened like just kind of explain like look at others a lot of just the one elaine and shawm like if you were facing the house to the left um because when the news crews came she was so tired of it that she put her speaker out there and blasted cardy b so they could air and she said are you and the kids okay and i'm like we are and i know i i've said and i don't know directly to her but said i wish the cameras were recording i wish i would have had video because then this could all be put to rest but i've never said that we have video doesn't even exist to have did you know from the get go that there was no video yes or was it like a you forgot no knew from the get go because when they came they're like what about the cameras i'm like they're not charged and that did hose i know that too yes okay where the camera is inside and outside just outside your house just outside there's one at the front door one at the garage door there were four totals front door garage door and on the backyard there was one on the deck and then one at the basement every all the entry points and then one at the basement door would have been nice if those cameras were working wouldn't it would have been great yeah no i mean this is another laughter judgment i mean we're at we're at a point in the story where i can clearly say foresight police did not do a good job with this investigation and the overall theme is they were treating it as an accident from day one and once again they're asking john did you know when the police came to your house on november 4th that the cameras weren't working yes did did hosay know that yes and and the gbi's asking her this because they've already talked to the neighbors oh it's almost like they've done their job like i was saying earlier with getting the answers to the questions before you ask them exactly and they did this a year and a half after what a concept right so the gbi spoke to a neighbor across the street from john it sounds like this is the person that john was talking about she's like i don't even talk to the neighbors i mean i did talk to the people across the street even more reason i want to speak to him why don't they talk to you that's what i want to know yeah the gbi went over there they questioned him about that day and he said a lot of things by the way but he first said that when he and his wife were leaving the house on the morning of november 4th he said they were going to breakfast they noticed a man and a woman coming out of john's house with a crackpot and they saw this man and woman load the crackpot into the car and drive away now the man and the woman with the crackpot would be tom and stacey smith because in their interviews they say like yeah we had the crackpot we left we put in the car we drove away now tom and stacey smith said they left at 8 30 but this neighbor across the street he says that he and his wife were leaving the house at 9 a.m and that's when they saw tom and stacey with the crackpot he said later they found out someone had passed away that day and he was actually talking to his friend in alabama and he told the friend that he'd seen some of the crackpot leaving the house when someone died and he made a joke about a crackpot killer he was like yeah i mean i didn't see anything but i did see you know some something suspicious they were leaving the house with the crackpot and according to what we've heard you know she had died the night before so i was making a joke like oh i saw the crackpot killer he said a few days later the woman who lived at that house a.k.a. john came over to explain what had happened when she came over to explain like two days later she came over and uh she had a flurry of flames on the floor i said i had a friend's over for my birthday we watched the album the ls u football game we played cars against humanity and we drank some wine and we went to bed and then i look at the next morning and one of my best friends had passed away and we found her out that's the weird thing and i'm not i mean i just simply don't know anything but she said i just felt like i needed to come tell you because the lady over here works at silver city elementary school and she went to school saying a lady fell off my balcony and that's not true but she said so i think she was kind of looking at it like an insurance thing you're in trouble i don't know what i don't know what she had said to me so she said uh she had felt like that lady's on her mouth and i think it was i assumed it's this lady here in the silver people because she said she worked at day one and she said something about uh all we know is she went outside the smoke and she said all her video showed that she went outside the smoke and she couldn't really tell anything and then she said it looked she fell and didn't try to catch herself or something like she said she had video over yeah she told me it was on video so are you sure she said that she said the video on her door appears that she fell and couldn't didn't catch herself but she was like she was locked out we didn't see anything also i said two people leaving that morning with a crock pot remember what climb that was it was probably around nine i would guess because we were going to breakfast all right so i'm going to quickly summarize what he said yeah that audio was a little tough to listen to it's hard i think they have the recorder in their pocket by the way but we're going to take a quick break but then i want to discuss it because it's important so he says that a few days after tam died jon came over and she was like hey i just want to explain to you what happened because this woman who works at silver lake elementary school she's running her mouth talking saying that some woman fell off my balcony and that is not what happened and what it looks like is that according to my cameras i have video footage and it looks like she accidentally fell and didn't brace herself the woman who died and the guys like yeah i guess she came over to tell me because someone was like spreading rumors and she wanted to like nip it in the bud and maybe she was looking at this for like insurance purposes and she had the cameras so basically jon told her neighbor across the street this wasn't anything like nefarious we didn't do anything wrong it looks like this was just an accident my cameras captured it and that's why the gbi is asking jon did you tell your neighbor that you had it on camera and jon's like no i said i wished i had it on camera and then they're asking this neighbor are you sure she said that he's like yeah that's what she said she said she had it on camera so let's take a quick break and then we're going to discuss that all right so let me guess because i know you work out and you care about fitness and stuff you have a folder of saved workouts on your phone that you fully intended to do and never did that is true i'm definitely one of those people that'll be like i'll start that routine monday usually i just go down there and do whatever my body feels like doing and that's not the way to do it that was me for a long time i had all these random workouts saved no actual structure no actual motivation so i'd either skip workouts entirely or just do whatever felt easy that day like whatever i was used to doing and knew how to do and no surprise i wasn't seeing real progress and that's why we both have started using the ladder app yes it's awesome it's completely changed how i work out it's like having a personal trainer without having to coordinate schedules which is like the hardest part and shout out to my trainer from ladder brian we just did a workout this morning i kept it up here so i had it's called the pressure wash it was only 38 minutes and one of the things i love about ladder is the user interface the video is very high quality but up in the top or left or right hand corner you have the amount of sets the amount of reps you have to do he's working with you on them he's actually doing the whole workout as you're doing it and then one little side thing that i really enjoy and love is that it works with apple health so if you have an apple watch like i do you can connect your watch to the app to track your calories that you're burning so love ladder it's definitely a winner for me we'll be using it going forward yeah it's really cool because you can do it anywhere so you can do it at home or you can bring it to the gym with you and then you have a personal trainer in your headphones it's going to walk you through every set it gives you cues keeps you focused i don't have to think about what i'm doing anymore it's not on my shoulders any longer and it's really cool because it's a structured strength training plan that's designed by a real coach so every week is going to build on the last and there's different plans depending on how you like to train like i said at the home at the gym if you're a strength focus they have pilates whatever fits your routine so honestly you can remove the guesswork with ladder you can get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout no thinking everything's planned for you and if you have an iphone head to ladder.fit.crimeweekly and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan use our link and you're going to get a free seven day trial with no credit card required which is cool and then you'll get ten dollars off your first month if you join yep that seven day trial without a credit card is a great way to try it out without any obligations and i'm going to continue using the app brian i'll see you tomorrow. okay so we're back from the break now what do you make of this is john just telling the neighbor she has it on camera so she doesn't look bad it did she have it on camera and then she just got rid of it so that the foresight county sheriff's office and the gpi wouldn't find it what's going on here well first off let's start off with whether it's true or not i absolutely believe that john said this to the neighbor no doubt about it she absolutely did it the question is not whether she said it or not it's why right is it for public perception as you said you know was she just concerned about the rumor mill and people assuming that there could have been something more malicious going on here so to try to nip that in the bud she's lying to the neighbor in the hopes that they'll spread you know this rumor as well saying yeah there's video it was just it was clearly an accident it's you know slam dunk case but then why not tell that to the gbi when they ask you well because she's again now she's lying because now she knows by admitting she said that to the guy they're gonna be like well why would you say that you didn't have cameras because people were talking and i just i wanted to like you know that's what she should have did but she didn't and why she didn't your guess is as good as mine maybe she doesn't want to come off as a liar but there's no doubt she said it to the neighbor the neighbor has no reason to lie the question is why she said it now was she saying it just to kind of make them look better because she doesn't want them assuming that they're murderers or was she trying to do something else or did she have video the only thing about her having video if there were video and they didn't want anybody to know there was video it's not impossible but i would highly doubt she she would have told the neighbor that there was video because then that could get back to law enforcement and it makes her look bad right like if there's incriminating video why wouldn't why would she admit that to anybody why wouldn't she go to her grave with the under the assumption that yeah there was no video well there wouldn't be video if she had gone into the system and deleted the video and then if Forsythe County Sheriff's Office had followed up with the RLO system and signed in and they were like oh hey this video was deleted now Jean can just make up another thing like ah it must have accidentally been deleted i'm not good with technology she's gonna make up things as she goes along depending on what they find but she was banking on or hoping that that email and her just saying yeah the the cameras have been dying since august would be enough for the Sheriff's Office which as it turns out it was yeah it was it shouldn't have been like i said all of this is a lot of speculation it would have been easily to confirm or or discredit the idea that those cameras weren't running if law enforcement instead of relying on an email or someone's word went to the source and RLO would have absolutely been able to provide that information so as far as her saying there was a video we'll never know do i believe she said it absolutely which it's like okay you were either lying then or you're lying now or you're lying both times yeah she screwed she screwed either way because now she is lying if it was just a simple accident why lie well i mean listen that's a whole different can of worms they understand at this point that the gbi is looking into this because to them there's something that doesn't smell right and now they're lying left and right because at minimum that they're concerned about what what the ramifications could be i just feel like at that point it's like you know sheepishly yeah i did say that like yeah you should have said people were talking and i was worried about my reputation so yeah but i agree but you're still lied you doubled down even though you know the gbi probably talked to your neighbors which is why they're asking you this question correct correct it doesn't make any sense okay so the gbi also talked to another neighbor of genres her name is mary now the audio quality of this interview is very bad oh jeez compared to the last one yeah it sounds like they have it in their pocket maybe it's happening outside there's birds calling there's dogs barking so i'll tell you most of what mary said she said quote i mean i'm just throwing this out there but she was pushed off that deck and quote referring to tamla mary said that she and her family didn't have anything to do with the people who lived in genre's house because they were kind of shady and you know to be true when i i watched i watched when the whole thing i mean it's right there i mean i woke up in my husband and i woke up in the morning when i went i don't know what peck is going on but then when the officer came out and said i heard everything they said is that it was a terrible accident and then she just fell to the ground sobbing and i thought to myself that's such an act okay you know what i'm sorry to say this but that's how i feel i really feel that something bad went on there so you know that's my own personal opinion you can take a photo of what it's worth and you can probably talk to the other neighbors too don't go tell you the same thing did they think something happened over there okay now did you i got asked did you see anything happened that made you think that was just more of a feeling now you said you think somebody pushed her off the porch who do you think that's what i had i mean i'm just saying this to you you know but i just i feel that was the confrontation and she was pushed did you know um the young lady that passed away dammit i didn't know anyone in them they were all much younger than us and you know they're like the soccer mom you know kind of goofed at the heck that went on there and you said it's my own gut feeling okay so i mean you don't have to put it down that's fun i'm just i'm glad somebody's reopening it right he just bothered me and bothered me and bothered me okay so mary's saying listen something happened there i think she got pushed off i've had a bad feeling about it now mary also said that both john and jose gave her an odd feeling and she said that the people who were at the party the night that tomla died were at john's house every single night for like two weeks straight and mary said her and her husband talked about it and they were like yeah these people are trying to get their story straightened out because why are they at the house every single night for two weeks straight why are they all together there what's going on okay so while we're talking about jose berrera let's go deeper now at the time of tomla's death jose was employed by the solicitor general's office as a pre-trial officer for the foresight county court system tomla died at the beginning of november 2018 and by december 20th 2018 jose was fired okay so let's fast forward a bit to february first 2019 when tomla's friend michelle graves filed an incident report with the foresight county sheriff's office she was accusing jose berrera of accessing her personal information using his police access and then she said he provided that information to five individuals as i said michelle graves was one of tomla's best friends she'd been very vocal after tomla's death that something suspicious was going on with the people at that party so michelle was friends with a woman named diane who was also friends with tam and john and diane had known john her mother and her ex-husband for many years diane was actually supposed to be at that party but she had taken a trip to california so she couldn't be there that night michelle says that john and some of the other people at the party were texting with diane on november 4th the day they found tam the first message was from john to diane at 2 31 p.m and it said that tam had wandered outside in the night for a cigarette and died two minutes later paula seals texted diane and said quote we all went to bed tam fell down the back steps at 157 they think it's alcohol poisoning end quote now michelle says these two messages two minutes apart from each other saying two different things that weren't even you know what the police ended up determining happened it was highly suspicious michelle says the following day november 5th john invited diane to bring over some members of tomla's family including her husband lee and michelle says that john told diane you can bring over any of tam's friends family anybody who's curious we want to like put this to rest so michelle decided to go as well michelle said that upon arrival they were shown through the kitchen and out onto the balcony and this is where they were told that hosé had found tamla's cigarette butts on the ledge of the balcony michelle said quote i remember thinking that was odd because tamla wouldn't do that she would put them in an ashtray or throw them away especially at someone else's house end quote also keep in mind there was an ashtray out there on the balcony then hosé pointed out to them a body imprint on the grass below and told them that was where tamla's body had been john also showed them a wall on the ground floor and demonstrated how tamla must have slid down the wall and stumbled through a six foot section of gravel before tripping over the garden border john said there'd been a table with cleaning supplies that tom must have knocked over as she fell and suggested that tamla might have been having a medical event we're going to talk more about this later but essentially this is how michelle came to be on hosé's radar according to her she says she talked to foresight county sheriff's detective sexton on november 19 she showed him the text messages and she's like hey don't you think this raises a red flag like what's what's going on you know you've got to talk to these people and she was told that they could not interrogate people or just give them lie detector tests randomly michelle says that on november 23rd five false police reports were filed against her by people at the party claiming michelle was stalking them and basically they were saying like she wasn't supposed to be at the house on november 5th she invited herself over we feel scared blah blah blah and michelle said that's when she felt the police were working with these people because why would they come after her four days after she talked to the police on the 19th and how would they know that she had talked to the police or what she had said to the police because according to these police reports they were aware that she was basically making allegations against them it seemed they were aware of what she said to detective sexton so when michelle made a complaint against hosie borrara on december 20th of 2018 she also asked mike christian why he had helped the five partygoers file false reports on her we are going to come back to this there was a whole legal battle mike christian did help the people at the party file these reports against tam's friend michelle these allegations were eventually thrown out by the court but basically michelle is saying why is this detective who's supposed to be investigating tom was deaf why is he helping the people who haven't even been ruled out as being suspects or involved why is he helping them come after me the person who's asking questions and wanting the police to dig further yeah great question i think we're all asking that michelle so then michelle has some information and things are said during this this legal battle that makes her think these people at the party who filed these false reports on her they have information about her that they could only get through hosie's access through his you know police connected computer so what ends up happening is hosie gets fired now the foresight county sheriff's office spokesperson major joe perkins told the foresight county news that they had determined that hosie had not searched for michelle grave's personal information from his work terminal however the investigation did turn up evidence that hosie had used his work terminal to view several reports including a death report dated november 4th 2018 in which he was listed as a witness aka tomlah hoarsford's death investigation not only did he access that information but he provided it to five different people so what do you think about that terrible abuse of power obviously misuse of department access you know that's completely unethical which is why he was fired but why did he do it yeah yeah i mean that's the only he can answer that question i know what half of you were thinking i know what the other half are thinking one half is thinking hosie knows that they're on to him and he's trying to get in front of things before it all comes crashing down because he's responsible for tomlah's death on the other hand he knows that he's innocent and now these rumors are starting to swirl and he's trying to get in front of it because he's about to be accused for a crime he didn't commit who's saying that he's innocent and he's trying to get ahead of it no that's what hosie's perspective would be you said half of the people are saying this and half of the people are saying that i'm saying as far as people watching or listening to this you think every single person listening to this right now is in the of the belief that hosie killed her i'm not saying that i'm even up the belief that's what i'm saying so half of our audience is saying he's trying to cover something up the other half is saying he's trying to get in front of something what i'm saying is if you looked up this death investigation it means you want to know what the police know and as a person a witness of this potential crime you shouldn't know what the police know because then you can tailor your story around that right we're on the same page there my point being the question again it's always going to be why why is he doing it i just don't think a person who's innocent says this is going to make me look better if i do this no of course not but he didn't expect them to find out that he was doing it you know that's that's the whole thing if he knew that they were going to be able to figure it out he probably wouldn't have done it or he knew he had friends in the foresight county sheriff's office who might let it pass so that's what we're moving on because in his position with the county hosie barara of course came into contact with multiple law enforcement people and as we know when the foresight county sheriff's office deputy andy kalen arrived to john's house on november 4th he said he recognized hosie well as it turns out andy more than recognized hosie because before hosie was fired from his pretrial officer position in 2018 he was fired from his job with the state probation office along with another person a woman named alexis because apparently the two had lied about their relationship so this is before tomla died before hosie's getting fired for using his police credentials improperly he's fired from the state probation office now andy kalen would be interviewed by the gbi and they were mainly trying to clarify whether or not there'd been a phone call with hosie during which hosie admitted to checking tom was pulsing moving her arm we already talked about that remember andy said that he had called hosie to kind of verify the positioning and whether or not he touched her he said hosie admitted to it then hosie was asked by the gbi and he was like that's bullshit i never said that so that's what the gbi was talking to andy kalen about and as we talked about already andy admitted that this happened and when he asked why the call hadn't been included in any report he said he hadn't made a report of it or written it down anywhere because to him it wasn't of any significance they were just trying to find out if hosie took tam's pulse and where he had touched her so in the same interview andy talks about his relationship with hosie in this clip andy mentions someone named james dunne who at that time was the foresight county assistant district attorney so you wouldn't have just written that report to cover for somebody else touching her body or anything like that no of course not i don't do that i've been doing this too wrong i have no one to i have nobody to cover for and that's really why i was explained to you about our relationship because all this has nonsense has come out and uh you know i met him through being an investigator at the courthouse james dunne said he was a good dude and you know i said okay so i maybe talked to him two or three times over there and then he got fired from he and olexus got fired from their jobs with state probation um and uh you know james was like man he's a good dude you know if you could try to help him get a job so i did i talked to the sheriff about him i said look you know here here he's got a good reputation over there with the judges and the adas and and as a hard worker but here's what happened you know and i said he got fired for a lion i mean that was the bottom line sure i said no i andy i appreciate it but i'm not we would not take a guy and that's why i got fired from this whole case but then he got fired again then he was yeah so that was when he got fired the first from his first job that's when he got fired from state probation and then he was a then you know jay me hired him to have an ear and he was doing a fine job according i guess to jay me over there i don't know he wasn't doing you know it was not many issues and uh then this came about when did you get his cell phone number do you remember prior to this case yeah no no i'm just thinking of when it would have been sometime after he would have been fired from the state probation um so god kelly i i don't know the dates i don't want to tell you it was like 2014 and it was 2016 i don't know whenever he was fired from probation and i talked to james done about it you know that they were gone from the courthouse and they were fired he you know he yeah said man i'd be great if you you know this guy did james not give you his phone number did you yeah james gave it to me i think i got it through text and i don't think it's actually i don't i don't i doubt i even have it because i go through my phone occasionally and purge okay so just to sort of recap what we just heard there after hose they got fired from the state probation office the assistant district attorney of foresight county james done asked the foresight county sheriff's office detective andy katelyn personally to help hosey get hired at a job within the sheriff's office because hosey was such a good guy and a hard worker now the sheriff said no and eventually hosey gets a job through the foresight county court system as a pretrial officer and andy katelyn has had hosey's number far before toml hoarsford died and apparently hosey's always had a really good reputation with the judges and the adas to the point where one of these adas went out on a limb to personally try to get hosey a job now this is showing that hosey's got connections and i mean he's got an ada vouching for him trying to get him hired within the sheriff's the sheriff's office of foresight county and i mean if he hadn't you know lied and gotten fired from his previous job it may have worked hosey may have been hired as as a police officer so yeah i mean for sure let's just talk about andy katelyn for a second knowing what he knew right that he had made attempts to get hosey hired as a deputy sheriff as soon as this case came up he should have removed himself from he should have accused himself and said hey listen it's a conflict of interest yeah it's very minimal as far as our relationship however i don't want to jeopardize the outcome of this case regardless of which way it falls so i'm going to respectfully remove myself from this case because i have a pre-existing relationship with this person regardless of how a minor it might be i know this person i have his number i vouch for him to try to get him a job i shouldn't be investigating him and when you look at it from that perspective you would understand why because he's going to go into this if he's vouching for this guy he's automatically going to assume that he's a good person he's telling the truth and that he didn't do anything wrong which is a skewed judgment so he should not have been anywhere near this investigation now what do you think about hosey having friends in high places as far as the district attorney's office being close enough with ada james dunn where james dunn is going out on a limb to bring in andy kailyn and be like hey can you get him a job i feel bad this guy got fired he's such a good guy and a hard worker yeah no same thing right james if he was anywhere near this case whatsoever he should have recused himself as well listen i mean i work in rhodeland there are unavoidable situations where when we work cases somehow there might be a connection where you know someone because you're working with them but whenever possible if you know this person or have a previous relationship with them for the integrity of the investigation regardless of what level you're at you should remove yourself from it all right so what i'm saying is if the sheriff's office is investigating and this is the foresight county sheriff's office and they're going right off the bat like first of all andy andy kailyn's going in and being like yeah i recognized yeah he's a good guy you're not being honest about your your relationship with him in the initial police report number one number two you had a phone call with him to verify how tom was body was moved and all this you didn't make a report about it you didn't talk about it it happened on your personal cell phone not your work cell phone and now you're talking about the law enforcement portion investigating and usually when the law enforcement portion is investigating they'll bring it to the district attorney's office and be like here's what we found how should we proceed is this an accident is this nefarious should we press charges now if the district attorney's office already is kind of like friends with hosay they might be more likely to be like you know what it looks like an accident let's just wrap this up and make an announcement i mean it's a little bit of a leap because the district attorney's office is more than one person i understand where you're going with it i'm just trying to stay objective about it i mean having one person know them you can't assume that entire organization is going to be like well you know james said he's cool yeah but andy said he had a good reputation with the judges and adas yeah yeah of course talking about all of them right because in that capacity he was working hosay would have run into adas and judges on a regular basis all the time of course he would yeah he'd be he'd be walking those hallways every day yeah for sure and so it does create some complications at the end of the day they're still going to be involved that they're they're the district attorney's office they have to be right but you would try to minimize the relationship so what you would do in that particular case whatever ada was handling this particular case you would want to ensure that they had no pre-existing relationship with hosay or anybody for that matter in that household so that would be a question that i would have is okay we understand that the the district attorney's office has to be involved with whatever happens here were precautions taken to ensure that nobody with a pre-existing relationship was overseeing this case but to on a lighter note just to kind of just even talk about it just from a surface level right if there is people who know of hosay from the past and know of other people in that house from the past is it possible that they automatically assume this was was a bunch of good people who were involved in a tragic accident absolutely it could skew your judgment for sure good guy yeah he's a good guy it's it's derrick it's stefanie we know them they're good people no way they did anything wrong here so could that skew so that's already a a bias before you yeah of course yeah of course absolutely so you're saying at the worst maybe there's some like back talk you know behind the scenes talking at the at the least worst it's just i came in with some kind of bias already thinking this person yeah preconceived notion about this case because i know the people involved or i know of the people involved yeah but it does seem odd that he wouldn't that andy kalen wouldn't be upfront about his entire relationship with hosay yeah no that's a misstep there's no in the fact that he was such a big part of this case you know this is the why we're covering it and now it makes sense as far as why people are so interested in this case and there's a lot of people who have investment in it because like many cases that we cover wherever there is a lot of rumors and speculation surrounding what actually occurred when you really get to the root of the problem it usually comes back to the investigating agency and not doing their job and not crossing all their t's dotting all their eyes ensuring that there wasn't anything there that would bring into question their decision-making processes at a later date right their ability to stay objective that clearly wasn't done here you could stop the the series right here and we could come to that conclusion and by not doing that you're going to always have these concerns and questions about this case because the people who were in charge of investigating it had previous relationships and that should never happen all right we're going to take our last break and then we're going to come back and wrap this episode up but the most shocking is yet to come so stay 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All right so we're back by the time the gbi has their first interview with jose brahra on june 22nd 2020 and he's asked about text messages from november of 2018 he says he probably doesn't have any because he now has a new phone okay that's not suspicious not necessarily on its own so in 2018 when the foresight county sheriff's office was investigating tomla's death they did not search the phones of any of the partygoers they did not interview any of john's neighbors they did tell tamas family that they were going to check the camera of a neighbor but then later they told the family that what they had thought was a camera was actually just a light i don't know how you mess that up as a cop but they did apparently allegedly so additionally no sexual assault kit was done on tamla at the time of her autopsy no fingernail clippings were collected gbi public affairs director nellie miles said that it is standard policy to not test for illicit substances when the possible suspect is deceased as there would be no one to be held accountable if they were to find drugs present because they didn't test the tequila for any illicit substances remember so nellie miles public affairs director the gbi is like yeah it's standard policy to not do that because the possible suspect is deceased aka tamla and so there would be no one to hold accountable so i don't know if the gbi is saying that it wasn't possible for anybody to put anything in tamas tequila besides her that's essentially what they're saying yeah well that doesn't make any sense that's essentially what they're saying though right i mean they're saying hey listen if there was anything illicit found in her blood or found in her body we're not it would be because of her yeah that's essentially what they're saying yeah nellie miles also said that it was routine to not take steps in the case to like get fingernail clippings or do a sexual assault kit because there were no indications of foul play but once again how on the day the autopsy is happening which is within days of tamla being dead if you haven't concluded an investigation how do you know there's no signs of foul play as far as i know to this day they still can't tell us exactly what happened to tamla so how do you know that maybe by grabbing those clippings by doing a sexual assault kit maybe that would explain what happened to her just to me just to have it in case if you want to go back later yeah if you found out something two weeks or three months later that was like oh that's weird let's check the sexual assault kit let's check the fingernail clippings listen if you have a loose end in a case like oh could this have been an argument that was that turned violent and maybe there are some defensive wounds right wouldn't you want to tie up that loose end by saying yeah you know there wasn't and you want to know why i know there wasn't because we we had clippings and we tested them and there was no dna found out on them okay all right i can get behind that okay thank you moving on but you didn't do that so now that question is going to remain a question let's shine the spotlight on foresight county sheriff's office deputy mike christian who as we know was hugely involved in this investigation we can hear his voice on every single one of these initial interviews well we are learning tonight of foresight county deputy stepping down according to the sheriff's office an investigation revealed that he violated several rules while on the job that report which was sent to 11 alive shows that deputy michael christian had inappropriate contact with two women while working they say he neglected his job left unauthorized people in official cars and gave out confidential information christian resigned before the investigation was complete foresight county sheriff ron freeman says there is no room for this type of conduct and the citizens of foresight county deserve better uh mike christian he's got some ladies in his cruiser trying to act like a cool guy all right so you might be like well what does this have to do with tamela he's just a man why is everything to do with it he made miss ill it does actually it does because it just shows the type of person you're dealing with and what they're willing to do it's character so what exactly did mike christian do well one woman said she met mike christian after he was assigned to investigate a crime committed against her and she told w sb tv channel two quote the bottom line is i called 911 and the county set a sociopath into my life end quote she said the relationship went from professional to friendly and then became intimate and she would often meet with mike christian while he was on duty he would also call and text her for hours while on duty sending her unsolicited crime scene photographs personal information about victims and other sensitive information this woman said she was actually on the phone with mike christian when he got dispatched to john meyers house on november 4th 2018 she said he was sending her pictures of tamela's dead body a second woman also came forward and said she was having a relationship with mike christian at the same time and he was sending her pictures of the crime scene as well quote i know where she died how she died the toxicology reports so he was just throwing this information out there like it was nothing end quote so three screenshots of snapchat messages that mike christian sent to these women were obtained by the gbi so in this one we're putting up on screen it was sent the morning of november 4th and mike christian appears to be making a joke about how he is going to notify tamela's husband about her death quote hello sir i know we've never met but i'm here to tell you that your wife and the mother of your six children is dead oh yes i'm happy to report that she was really really drunk blended face down in the backyard and either through hypothermia or potential asphyxia or aspirated on her own puke not sure which one i know you have fun memories enjoy corralling those six boys who are now going ape sh** end quote it's not much to say here right it's despicable deplorable unethical bottom line he's an asshole and uh he just from a professional standpoint he's disseminating information to an independent party who has nothing to do with the case and if you want to take it a step further he's coming to a conclusion about this case before he's had the chance to investigate it so i have no kind words to say about michael christian and he doesn't seem to be very empathetic about what happened to tamela right he's an asshole oh she landed down faced on the backyard maybe asphyxied on her own puke not sure which one you're not even looking at this is something like hey this doesn't seem right well it aligns with everything we've talked about not only an episode one but also here tonight which is that they came to a conclusion before doing the investigation the minute they showed up based on the people that were there and how tamela was found they concluded that she did this to herself and so how do you have an independent investigation when the investigators in their minds have already figured out what happened i don't even know how you can do any kind of thorough or detailed investigation when you're so concerned with snapping pictures on snapchat of a woman's dead body to send your girlfriend and chatting with her about it right no it's a scumbag move it's an absolute scumbag move and you have to wonder about how many other cases he did this on apparently a lot by the way apparently it does answer my question when i was asking you earlier rhetorically saying you know why wasn't a biomechanical engineer brought in well now we know because when he got there he had already decided that she fell over the railing and that this was her doing and so he didn't feel the need to have an independent party an expert who actually knows what they're talking about come in and tell you what could have occurred but there's more than just my christian showing up to the scene that day yeah but he's one of the lead investigators right i mean he's one of the ones that's got his fingerprints all over it but there's detective sexton there's andy kaolin all these people are showing up a lot right i'm sure his feelings were probably mutual amongst amongst everybody there so on november 19th mike christian wrote to his girlfriend quote greetings from racist cracker bastard murder covering upland how are you it's a nice rainy day good for digging shallow graves by the roadside end quote now if you see in this screenshot the word graves is capitalized and it's believed that it's spelled with capital g because it's a reference to michelle graves who if you're remember had a meeting with the foresight county sheriff's office that same day and basically said something suspicious was going on with tomliss case and then all of a sudden mike christian helps these five party goers file false reports against michelle graves trying to scare her and shut her up so the gbi actually talked to one of these women mike christian's girlfriend's one of them and she said christian was obsessed with this case she said he talked about it all the time he called tomlap porch lady and much more now they have a filmed interview with this woman her face is blurred the audio is once again terrible i can't even use it however i can tell you what this woman told the gbi so this was the woman who was on the phone with mike christian when he got the call about tomlahorsford she said he told her there was a black dead lady in someone's yard he then got off the phone with her and then started snapchatting her she said he would do this with every call he had been doing it for years he snapped a picture of tomliss body and she said quote the story was that she fell off the porch but he didn't think that ever end quote mike christian told this woman that tomliss wrist was broken and he was trying to figure out why her body had been moved quote he was telling me that something didn't look right to him because he could tell her body had been moved and he said there's no way she fell off the porch if she was that drunk she wouldn't have braced herself and he said that he didn't think the wrist injury matched her falling off the porch end quote this woman said that over the years mike christian was obsessed with the case he talked about it every day and quote he said it ruined his life and his career end quote she said mike christian started having panic attacks he had to go back on his blood pressure medication because the case was stressing him out so much the woman said that mike christian told her that at some point he found out there had been calls made between hosea and andy calin before the 911 call and after the police left that day november 4th there were more calls made quote so then mike started freaking out and at the very end like before we stopped talking he told me that he was convinced that he didn't think she was murdered he said that something else happened to her he thinks her death is accidental but where he was getting frustrated was he said that he was convinced that maybe the people at the party panic and talked to andy calin and got a story together moved her body and then came up with this whole porch thing at the end mike was pretty convinced now at the beginning of the investigation he was just like i don't know what's going on you know like i don't know i don't think it's the porch i don't know what's happening but then i guess is he got more information but i don't know at the end he started having panic attacks and he was like i'm gonna go down you know if there really was a cover-up that i wasn't privy to that means my own officers set the scene up knowing i was coming to investigate it but not knowing that i was investigating something that was like laid out for me to investigate end quote well there you go right from the horse's mouth right self-explanatory right from the girlfriend of the horse's mouth yeah that's fair but what would be her incentive to lie to the gbi of all things yeah what would be the point of making all this up i mean listen we have to acknowledge that it's possible right that some people have access to grind and they could go out there and say all this but when you consider how this investigation was conducted it's pretty spot-on to what a lot of people think yeah and i mean i can see her because she did talk to journalists and obviously she talked to the foresight county's sheriff office she was one of the people that filed our report yeah she didn't think too kindly of my christian i could see her you know maybe elaborating or exaggerating but when the gbi comes she got on camera yeah there's a there's a recorded interview of her and she's saying all this i'm quoting directly from that recorded interview yeah damning for sure yeah it's pretty bad now according to this woman mike christian was panicking and scared that he was going to get in trouble that even though he had not done anything wrong he was going to go down for people who had done something wrong and this woman goes on to say that tomless family believes that mike christian was kicked out of the cid because of her case but it wasn't that it was because mike was going for a promotion to sergeant and tyler sexton got that promotion and mike called tyler a preppy bastard to his face and then remember last episode we talked about that other police officer i think his name was greg canon who got fired for drinking on the job and mike christian was removed from the tomlach horseford case halfway through because it it came out that he had covered up for greg so greg gets fired for drinking on the job then someone lets it slip the mike christian had known greg was drinking on the job the whole time and this is when he's removed from the cid which stands for criminal investigation division and then this is why mike christian is taken off tomlach horseford's case and he doesn't stay on at the entire time and this woman also said that mike christian called her freaking out about tam's friend michelle graves all the time and basically being like why is this woman like digging so deep why is she you know keep bothering us what what does she want here basically he he was feeling threatened by her which makes sense i guess why he then helped these five people who he was supposed to be investigating file police reports against her to try to shut her up and scare her yep absolutely all makes sense now now mike christian of course responded to all of this the thing to understand is he's caught doing all of these things and instead of allowing an investigation to happen he resigned from the foresight county sheriff's office kind of seems like he was running away from it right yeah good for you mike so after he resigned and everything came out he put out a public statement quote i am far from a perfect human i chose to end a long term extramarital relationship abruptly this person out of anger and hurt chose to go to share freeman with a list of alleged misconduct on my part in 2020 hindsight i would not have resigned but stayed for the investigation and taken what punishment was fitting up to termination as is the i a investigation lacks my side of the story and makes me out to be something i am not all the good i have done in 16 years of law enforcement is gone with this document end quote now of course he's saying this before the gbi does their investigation into tom lehorsford's case and produces these snapchat screenshots which clearly show that you're it's not alleged misconduct this was actual misconduct my friend so as to this woman's claims of what he told her about the tom lehorsford case mike christian had this to say to the gbi is there any reason that mandy would have told me that you felt like hosé may have called andy like that it was still an accident but that they panicked and hosé called andy and andy kind of helped him come up with a story on what to do and then that is so far out of left field i know uh so you never had any concerns that anybody ever messed with this scene prior to your arrival or that you were going to be caught up and get arrested and something that happened that you knew nothing about as far as the scene being messed with i don't know uh okay i'll get even further with that i have no doubt that she landed exactly where we found her and i think we've gone over this several times but but basically those two injuries on her shin corresponded with that piece of landscaping whatever and the dent i have no there's no doubt in my mind that she fell from that deck and landed where we found her he has such a stupid face i want to punch it i'm you know listen i'm no brad pit so i'm not going to say anything but no it's not even it's just the way he's like like no absolutely like come on dude and he keeps talking the the the injuries on her shins correspond wasn't it you by christian who initially said she had fallen and tripped over the landscape and that's how she got the injuries on her shins and now you're like no the injuries on her shins show exactly that she fell off the deck i have no doubt come on bottom line nobody there knew what happened and yet they were treating it as if there's no doubt this was an accident so this woman who we have been able to prove might christian center all sorts of things including basically making fun of notifying tom was husband about her death and being like have fun corralling those those five boys now and and he told her allegedly according to this woman that he always felt there was something wrong and maybe there had been a police cover up and he was afraid and he was stressed out but now he's saying absolutely not i never said that do you think it's just because he genuinely does feel like something happened but at this point he doesn't want to publicly say that on the record because well then maybe these other police officers would come after him maybe he'd have no shot of ever working in law enforcement again yeah it's absolutely absolutely possible you know we don't know i mean i can sit here and tell you sure yeah that's that's that's what happened here but i don't know i don't know what was going on behind closed doors i don't know what this woman what her agenda was if it was just to tell the truth and get it out there or if she had an axe of grind i don't know but everything you've talked about over these last two episodes now we're like six hours in my opinion is that there absolutely was something going on here where at minimum they had come to a conclusion the minute they arrived maybe even before they arrived that's something that i don't think is up for much debate at this point whether everything that that woman said was true there's no doubt in my mind that him saying oh yeah congrats you gotta go tell your five kids six kids whatever that they their mother's gone because you were drunk and you you know you aspirated on your own bomb and all these things right that to me is too much detail to be just something she made up and well she didn't make that up the gbi was able to verify that those those screenshots were true so yeah that that to me right there is there's obviously truth in that gbi was able to confirm it and so now we know that everybody involved in this case or at least the most of them the people who are calling the shots from day one believe this was an accident now was there a cover up for me personally i haven't seen any evidence of that yet was there assistance by law enforcement potentially especially when you consider andy kalin and the phone calls that happened i need i need more to go there but to me i don't need anything else to come to the conclusion that a decision about this case was made before they ever investigated the crime and that that's obviously one of the number one cardinal rules when investigating a crime of this nature so the allegation was that there had been calls between andy kalin and hosey before hosey and john call 911 yeah now of course the force heith county sheriff's office isn't going to investigate that they didn't take anybody's phone by the time the gbi tries to investigate that as you heard andy say oh well i i purge things all the time and hosey of course has a completely different phone and you know they'd have to go through cell phone carriers at this point and you know how difficult that is but it can be done by the way at the time if it would have been done correctly it could have been a year and a half later though maybe no more than likely not at that point yeah so at that point now the gbi goes to hosey and they're like will you take a lie detector test he's like yes they go back to him i think a few weeks later and they're like okay so you said you were gonna take a lie detector test he's like no i'm not gonna do that anymore yeah so and you know and they're like hey can i take can we take your phone and extract it he's like sure but of course it wasn't the phone that he had at the time tamela died so it doesn't matter so there's no way to prove whether those calls those alleged calls between andy and hosey before the 911 call ever happened and obviously hosey and andy aren't going to admit to that or fess up to that but that would suggest a cover up right a cover up on behalf of the people who were at the party if hosey called andy calin before he called 911 would you that suggest there's something that would suggest there's something why would you call your buddy andy i'm gonna look like a defender of law enforcement here but that call could have been hey andy i know i know you we found this woman outside what should we do and andy says you need to call law enforcement i i wouldn't go as far as what you're saying as far as oh he made that call to someone he knew in law enforcement therefore it's a cover up yeah but the allegation is that my christian told his girlfriend that he found out these calls that happened and that andy had helped them cover it up oh yeah that's his that's his opinion yeah i haven't seen any evidence of that yet from what you've conveyed to me um that's a big it's a big allegation to make and i would need more than incompetence and there's definitely incompetence here on behalf of everybody involved and also i would go as far as saying a bias an assumption made that this was an accident based on previous relationships but to go to the extreme of this was a a collaborative effort a cover up between all these people at the party and the law enforcement agency force like police department i'm not ruling it out but i haven't seen that yet i will say the call and the fact that he wasn't willing to take a lie detector test is highly suspicious so just to to kind of clarify my christian is saying i don't think this was a murder i think it was an accident she died and then they called andy kailyn and they were like panicking what do we do and andy gave them instruction of of kind of like how to go about this maybe what to say when they called 911 etc etc so that's not necessarily i guess we're covering up a murder but yes i'm advised by a law enforcement officer to try to make this go as smooth as possible for sure yeah absolutely that's it's definitely a play here there's no doubt about it i guess my as as a gbi investigator if i was working this i would want to know what time that call took place for example we have already determined based on the body that her death was approximately that time frame in which she kind of went off the radar maybe 1 30 2 o'clock in the morning based on how the stage that she was in rigor all of these things so we know she didn't die at 8 o'clock in the morning right so what i would want to know is when that call took place now it still doesn't mean that they didn't wait a few hours before calling andy but it would give us some some insight into when they discovered tamala right like if they called andy at 8 30 a.m so like if they were present when it happened if it was if it if the call took place to andy at 30 a.m there you go 30 a.m yeah now now we're talking a different ball game right we're talking a completely different thing and that's and then they don't make the call to law enforcement until 8 30 in the morning well what were you doing in that four hour window but yeah this is a horrible case and i understand now i get it i get why people are so passionate about this case and are so frustrated and so angry by this case because clearly without doing anything else regarding what transpired not talking about any other part of this tamala did not get the justice she deserved and i understand why lee and the rest of her family is so upset about this because maybe if a thorough investigation had been conducted by independent parties who were impartial to what had transpired here and didn't have pre-existing relationships and weren't on phone calls with potential persons of interest or suspects prior to calling dispatch maybe lee would have accepted the results of the investigation and said you know what it was done by the book they crossed every t they dotted every i i don't like it but it's a tragic accident but when you have all of these things in totality in conjunction with the behaviors of the people at the party yeah i'd be skeptical of the investigation as well and what actually took place that night i agree so next week we'll continue on with this case and uncover more but as of now i can't wait to hear everybody's comments about part two i look forward to reading them on youtube and discussing the case with you but do you have anything else to say before we sign off i would just change it up make it a little bit lighter uh congrats to the crime con giveaway winner congrats to our patreon winner and also i think we're able to say this we won't give any details but if you're coming to crime con stefinney and i were talking about it before we started recording this is a first for us we are going to be officiating a wedding like actually we are now ordained ministers someone in our crime weekly family is getting married at crime con in vegas and darryl and i are officiating the wedding we're we're marrying them yes and this person came up to me and i'm not saying her name because i don't know if she wants it out there yet i have a feeling anybody who's there from the crime weekly fam is going to be invited to come that would be my guess but uh we'll let we'll let them decide but she came up to me while i was in line at the lobby at crime con denver and we were talking and she said hey what if we got married next year would you do it and i was like sure it's not thinking yeah she was going to follow through on it and then and then he brought her over to me and he was like we're marrying them next year yeah and it i just i put it on my instagram story i just got my uh official certificate and let's just say i'm not going to spoil it here but your boy's going all out as far as the attire that's all i'm going to say um but that is that is my uh we'll post pictures yeah we'll have pictures and video for sure who anybody who can't make it but if you can and you want to be part of the first crime weekly wedding in vegas book your tickets but yes tragic case glad we're covering it completely understand why we're covering it it needs to be covered it's unfortunate that so much time is passed because a lot of the things that you'd like to do in this investigation you can no longer do but i mean not a lot of time is passed if you think about it in 2018 i'm speaking relatively from the perspective of of gbi from from going back and retrieving data like arlo cameras and cell phone data and text messages between parties gps coordinates whatever you could do also bringing a biomechanical engineer recreating the scene although you could still do that by the way you could still have someone at that property if it's still erect and i'm assuming it is and you could run through different scenarios with especially with ai and the technology that we have today to see based on her injuries what scenarios are actually possible right well they did they did another autopsy we're going to talk about it looking forward to it until then everyone stay safe out there we'll see you next week bye this is the story of the one as a procurement manager for a hospital system she keeps every facility in her network stocked and ready that's why she counts on granger to be her single source for thousands of products from disinfectants to lighting air filters and more and with fast dependable delivery granger helps her keep every facility stocked safe and running smoothly call 1 800 granger click ranger.com or just stop by granger for the ones who get it done hi i'm elinor just your average walking talking dancing singing puppet a 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