Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm here with the one and only Andrea Canning. Hi, Andrea. Hey, Blaine. Good to see you. We are here to talk about your episode, Take Two. This case truly has just about everything, an undercover sting, hidden cameras, a murder-for-hire plot, and a twist that investigators say that they almost never see. So if you haven't listened to this episode yet, it's the one right below this one, or you can go watch it on Peacock. So go there, watch or listen, and then come right back here. And when you come back, we'll play a moment from Andrea's interview with detectives that didn't make it into our broadcast. All right, Andrea, let's talk Dateline. Let's do it. This one was, I mean, I think we say this at every talking Dateline, but this one truly was, this was wild. This was all over the place. I didn't know what to expect almost from the very first second the episode started. This one was insane. It really was. I mean, yeah, this is like what you call like a wild roller coaster, you know, of a case. And it really felt like a movie. So, Andrea, just in case folks haven't seen it or before we get into our discussion, just kind of summarize this for me. Give me a quick version of what happened in this episode. Yeah, I mean, this is about a couple, Susan and Ira Bernstein, who had troubles in their marriage for quite a while. They have three kids. And Ira claims he's working like crazy to pay the bills because they have an extravagant lifestyle. Then he is reunited with a patient, Kelly Gribaluk. Kelly is eclectic career, mortician, former mortician, model. Now she's like selling shoe orthotics. So she comes to Ira and she says, I want you to help me with this shoe business. They start an affair. Next thing you know, they are plotting to have Susan killed. And they went to the wrong person. They went to Markenzie because Markenzie decided, you know what? I'm going to bring you two down because this is wrong. So Markenzie was responsible along with the police for stopping the plot to have Susan killed. Ira and Kelly go off to prison. Ira comes out. And what does he do? He starts talking about killing his wife again. Insane. Yeah. And also chooses again someone who does not want to be a part of this, a landscaper. He's like, no. Thankfully, Ira picks badly for assassins. So let's just break down everything that you just said right there. One, this is such a different type of Dateline episode because there is not actually a death, right? Like we're talking about two murder plots, but they never actually come to fruition, thankfully. And I think a big piece of this is thanks to Markenzie the first time around, right? Oh, yeah. Like the fact that somebody comes to him and says, hey, do you know how to kill somebody? I mean, some people could have just said, no, I don't know how to do that and just gone about their business, right? Not gotten involved with the police to try and bring this person down. It would be scary to, you know, if someone's serious about that. But also, Blaine, would you be like a little offended if someone thought that either you could kill someone or that you have friends who kill people? I feel like, wait, is there something about me? Like, why are you picking me to, you know? Well, I thought about that with Mark Kinsey because he, and you asked him, you're like, why did you say something maybe that made her think? And he said something like, oh, if you're not happy, like we can help or I know someone who can take care of it. Something like that. But it was a rather large leap to get to. I think so. And, you know, I've gotten to know Markenzie a little bit, you know, through this story because now, you know, I re-interviewed him. And he's such a nice man. Like he's really – I just found him to be really sweet. He's a father. You know, he's – for me anyway, he's not somebody that I would like first instincts peg to be someone who's going to find me a hit man. Right. Right. Right. He seemed I was really just struck by how much time he spent trying to bring this case down. There were so many meetups. He had to have his car wired. And then you said not only did he go and meet up with her repeated times in these parking lots, he had to go meet with investigators like 45 minutes beforehand. So we're talking about a dad of kids like that's a big chunk of time to kind of devote. It was a lot of work. And not only that, he's really putting himself in danger, too, because if these people are willing to have someone killed, you know, now you're messing around with people capable of murder, right? And then there's that moment that everyone, I feel like, talks about with this story. And it's that moment where Ira turns in the car and he sees a camera or something. Was that a camera? And it's like heart pounding, right? Because you're like, oh my gosh, he's about to figure this out. And Markenzie, thinking on his feet, is like, oh, it's for the kids' games or whatever. And Ira totally buys it. Markenzie was brilliant, by the way. He was the right person for this. I mean, there were multiple times when he really thought on his feet. He did. And also, like, it shows you, like, Ira really doesn't trust his gut. He sees this thing and he's on the right track that something's amiss, but he ignores his gut. He's like, oh, well, maybe it's fine. It's fine. You know, I have to say, you described this as a movie at the beginning. This is maybe the first one in a while that I can remember that I really felt like I was watching a movie. Like I had that kind of pit in my stomach or like that kind of nervousness or like, oh, my God, what's going to happen next? Is he going to get found out? And that was just I mean, that was present throughout almost the entire thing. Yeah. And I love hearing it from your perspective as someone who's seeing it for the first time, you know, because we get so close to our stories. And this is the second time I've done it because we had this major update. So for me, I know everything that's coming. So I love hearing it from you, you know, as a first time viewer to really feel those like twists and turns. And, I mean, imagine being Susan. You know, we talk about this like, oh, it could be a movie and, you know, all these twists and turns. But, like, poor Susan. You know, just she had a target on her back twice. And the fear that you would have, you know, looking over your shoulder and going to sleep at night. And it's real, you know. A target on her back from her husband, mind you. I mean, that's just the worst feeling. I want to – you brought up a good point. I want to kind of like bring in for our viewers who don't necessarily know how we do our stories. I mean, we are always so busy with our stories of our own at many different times that a lot of times we don't know what each of us has going on. Right. So a lot of times it's a big surprise for us, too. And I have to say that when I was watching just the previews in the very beginning, I knew that it took place over some amount of years because I saw your hair change. I watched I saw the difference. Oh yes Oh yes And I when I had to watch it again I was like oh is that good Is that is that bad I like you know you just kind of have that like what was I thinking I don know I mean it not the worst but I think my hair probably looks better now They were not they were not bad at all It just one of those things that I feel like you and I only have and like the guys don have to deal with when they do stories over the course of however many years I don think their hair has ever changed So, yeah. Exactly. No one could tell. No one could tell. But in watching it, that was kind of my first tell of like, okay, this took place over an amount of time. Can you just talk a little bit, though, about what it's like to follow a story for that long and then have such a major update as you had in this story? And Blaine, I've had datelines with multiple pregnancies. That's how many years are passing. We talk about hairstyles, but let's talk about babies, too. It's just interesting how, like, things change. You know what I mean? Like, so many things change, but you're still on the case. And in this case, when our producer, Lynn Keller, told me that Ira was accused of trying to kill Susan again, my jaw dropped. To hear something like that, it's like, what are you thinking? And then when I confronted him at court for the sentencing for the second one, he says to me, like, you know, I asked him if he wanted to stop and talk. And he says, why would I talk to you? You screwed me over the first time. paraphrasing. I can't remember exactly what he said. But like, really? I screwed you over? How about you screwed yourself over, buddy? You can never get inside the minds of folks, but the interview was very fair. Like he gave him a chance to say everything that he needed to say. He got his side out. I mean, look, you know, we are journalists. We try to stay neutral and, you know, unbiased. But I can honestly sit here and tell you, Ira considers himself like a victim forever. He is always the victim, right? He blames other people for everything. It's just he, everybody, even what in his sentencing, and by the way, funny story about the sentencing too, I was sitting there in the courtroom and I'm, you know, I'm kind of on my phone waiting and just looking at my phone and someone like passes me or whatever. And I honestly was like really engrossed in like something I was reading. And I look up from my phone and I'm in the front row and And I look up and Ira's sitting right next to me in the courtroom. What? Yeah, he's right beside me. It was just so weird. And we both looked at each other. Did he say anything? No, but he'd already made that comment, like, outside going in, you know? And something else, as he was actually, we were waiting for him, obviously, at the courthouse, right? We knew his sentencing was at 2 o'clock. and I see these two men walking and I'm like pretty far away. But I was like, that's not Ira. Like those are like two attorneys or something. Like there's no way that's Ira. And then I see Logan, our associate producer, running and I'm like, okay, wait, Logan knows something I don't. Like what? Wait, guys, go outside now. Like Logan's running. So we run outside and then I'm looking and I'm looking and I'm like, I actually have pretty good eyesight from far away. And yet I still didn't know. And it was Ira. And he had gained weight. He had dark glasses on. His toupee was gone. So they were like scrambling and, you know, he comes up and then, of course, he made his nice little comment to me. Sorry, I got off track because, oh, yeah, I was talking about him being, you know, playing the victim because even in his statement, during his sentencing, he blamed the landscaper, that it was all the landscaper's fault. And I'm thinking, what? You know, take some responsibility. Yeah, yeah. When we come back, we'll hear a moment from Andrea's interview with detectives that reveals another shocking idea investigators say Ira had for targeting Susan. You know, I think what's – you talked about his victim mentality and that was so apparent. That was so apparent really from the first moment that we heard him speaking because I was just floored at the way that he described Susan. Like, oh, she's lazy. She doesn't do anything. She just takes care of the kids. I'm the one who's out here working. I'm the one who's keeping up our lifestyle. And I'm thinking to myself, like, this man has a very low understanding of just what it takes to raise kids and what it takes to keep a household. You know what I mean? Being a stay-at-home mom. Like, the whole thing was just so – he had such a clear contempt for her from the very beginning before we even knew what his role in all of this was. Absolutely. And you just hear in her – through her words the pain that it caused her, you know, the fear that she lives in, like, with 24 hours a day. I mean, she basically said, like, you destroyed our life, this life that we had. And he did. Divorce is hard enough on children. But not just divorce, but then dad's trying to kill mom. And it also shows that he didn't learn his lesson. So even after he gets out of prison, especially after, it's like, okay, might he come back for a third? He's not somebody who is easily dissuaded from this thing that he wants to do. The judge called it mind-boggling. The judge said that he was confused how someone could do this. I think we all are. Like, why would you do this again? Yeah, yeah. There were a lot of twists in this one. I mean, in addition to just that in and of itself. But let's talk about Markenzie. When you sat down and talked with him, it was clear that you all had such a great rapport, that you really got to know each other well, but that he had this kind of sense of, I just want to do what's right no matter what. did he ever give any sense? Like, was he nervous during this process? Like, just kind of what were his inner thoughts being part of this? Yeah, he seemed pretty cool about it. He just has kind of a laid back vibe to him. So there really was none of that where he's like, you know, I thought my life could be over at any moment or it wasn't, it was, he's pretty cool under pressure. I was gonna ask where, if he was still selling cars or there were just so many skills of his that came out that he would be really good at undercover work or so many other things. I know. Maybe he should have like become a private investigator or something. Yeah, he's still in the car business. It was good to catch up with him again. Of course. Let's talk about just this notion of an undercover operation, right? I mean, the wiring of the car, the having to meet up, the realization. I think what was interesting is that he could walk up to the line, but he couldn't do too much because he couldn't, you know, try and convince them to do something. How fascinating are those sting cases to you? I know that you went undercover in an episode yourself, right? Oh my gosh, yes. Wow, that was a long time ago. Oh my gosh, yes. I was pregnant for real and it was an adoption story. And it was myself and AP who both pretended to be pregnant to meet with this adoption lady who worked for an adoption agency And I was trying to basically sell my baby And I was saying you know what if I using drugs Do I have to put that on the application And she like no you can leave it off. Oh, my gosh. So that was I was nervous, though. You want to talk about heart pounding? My heart was pounding like during the during the adoption undercover. I was like, yeah, like the thump, the thump, the thump. And she knew, though, what was interesting, kind of just like Ira, you know where his instincts were sort of like halfway there? Something's that way. This woman, she was halfway there. She knew something was up. Interesting. Wow. I'm curious. What happened with that? Well, we ended up telling her we were from Dateline and she got up and she like went away, like went to her car. And then the crazy thing is, though, she actually came to New York and did a follow-up interview. What a wild story. Yeah. Wow. So I know that for me, just watching undercover operations on TV in your episode in movies, I get nervous. So I can't imagine actually doing one of those. I mean, it really was heartbreaking, though, because people were being promised children. And Blaine, we're moms. Like, what would be more heartbreaking than you're expecting to get, you know, your child, to bring your child home? And then this woman. After years of disappointment. Right. And then this woman is saying, oh, sorry, they chose someone else. Meanwhile, it's all a scam. You know, it was really, that's why we called it Hope and Heartbreak. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, this, I mean, people should go back and watch that one as well. Yeah. So let's get back to podiatrists. Let's talk about Ira himself. I mean, we talked about him a little bit, but I think the funniest thing, I actually laughed out loud when you revealed that he was the official foot doctor, official podiatrist for the police department. I mean – And both of these guys had been patients of his. And the meetings are happening in the parking lot next to the police department. It's so funny because the morning our original show aired. um i so i was on another dateline where i'd injured my like ankle foot getting out in a snowstorm getting out of a police car and um it just wouldn't heal so finally i broke down and made an appointment with the podiatrist and it happened to be the morning that our show was airing and so i took a picture with the podiatrist and like put it on twitter and i accidentally this is so bad i accidentally called him ira bernstein in the in the in the twitter post like i just somebody like quickly corrected me but i was like oh my gosh sorry like right like please don't sue me um i messed up just a normal good doctor yeah that's hilarious what a coincidence for a timing i know for your appointment timing oh my goodness but let's talk about kelly the dynamic between kelly and uh kelly and ira but just kelly herself right i'm i'm curious what it was like for you to sit down with her. I don't even know how to explain her. Like, I've never met anyone like her where she did such a bad thing. And then it was almost like it wasn't that bad or something with talking to her and also her loyalty to Ira where, you know, she's like, no, we're in love and this is happening and he's like my guy. And then he makes her sit in jail for four months. Well, he bails out in like four days or whatever. Right. It was strange to me. I mean, a number of things, but one, just watching her be the one to kind of be this, I mean, she was like his shield, right? Like she acted as his protector, this kind of like, well, we just need to be sure. And, you know, clearly she was the one sticking her neck out and he was kind of, you know, staying in the background. But just this notion of like there's this successful, clearly very well-off doctor. And she's the one doing all of the dirty work, right? Yeah. It's so wrong. I know. And she was so in love with him. But she, from what I understand, you know, from her attorney is really trying to get her life back together and, you know, her relationship with her children. I think she's hopefully learned her lesson. If Ira hasn't, hopefully Kelly has. Yeah. Yeah. And then let's talk about Susan. I think the thing about the story that just at the very end when we finally heard from Susan, but that she asked even in the courtroom that there were no cameras on her. That just broke my heart because I just thought about, gosh, what this woman has gone through and to just try and hide. Right. Like she hadn't asked for any of this. She really summed it up in her victim impact statement, what her life has been like and how horrible it is for her, for her children. I mean, there are so many pieces and so many different people in all of this. Let's talk about the landscaper. Because he was somebody who, again, kind of going back to this kind of trail of people who just have been wronged in some way by Ira. I mean, this is a gentleman who lost his business, essentially, or the control of his business, right? Right. Right. And Susan actually called not only the landscaper, but Markenzie her angels, you know, for saving her. And by the way, Susan and Markenzie are friends, which is really cool. But the landscaper, yeah, I mean, and I said to the detective, I said, like, doesn't he watch Dateline, the landscaper? Like, why would he want to get into business with someone like that? And she said apparently he knew. And Ira told the landscaper that it was all Kelly, that he got sucked into this thing because of Kelly. And so he, again, is a victim. And so the landscaper trusted him and then got burned. Gosh. Yeah. Let's talk about – there is an extra clip of an interview that you did with Detective Peggy Braddock. That didn't make it into our broadcast, but I want to listen to a little bit of it here. she kind of describes this conversation that Ira had with that landscaper we were talking about, sitting around, drinking wine, eating cheese. Yes. And Ira floated this idea. I mean, just the whole thing is just so outside the realm of reality. Yes. Let's listen to it. And as the conversation went on, they started talking about things that weren't involving business. So they were telling some funny stories about their childhood and their past. And the landscaper told a story about a friend of his who was, I believe, in business with somebody and felt he had been done wrong. So when this person was driving, he called the police and told them that this person had drugs in their car and they were stopped and were ultimately arrested for having the drugs in the car. So Ira said to the landscaper, do you think we can do this to Susan? So as they talking over wine and cheese he says well my wife drives an Audi and the landscaper says well my cousin a distant cousin works for Audi And he like well you think you can make a key And the landscaper like well how would you do this He's like, what does Susan do? And he's like, well, she goes to book club, she goes to cooking club. And the landscaper's like, what are you, crazy? Who's going to think that a woman who goes to book club and to cooking club is carrying a kilo of drugs in her car? That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. What's wrong with you? And he just, like, puts a kibosh on the conversation. So plant the drugs in Susan's car and have her arrested. It only escalated from there. It definitely escalated from there. But it just shows that even back then, he was still thinking of ways to get to his wife. The wheels were turning. Wow. He's like the wily, what is it, coyote, you know, that keeps coming back, like the bad. With weird plots, yes, exactly. I should say, Blaine, we're laughing because of the absurdity of some of these things that we're talking about and hearing. It's not funny. Susan, this is her life. This is not funny. But it's hard not to laugh at moments of the absurdity of Ira Bernstein. It just defies reality. It defies logic, right? It's outside of the realm of what anyone would ever think that another human being would come up with. Yes. It's hard to imagine them sitting over wine and cheese and being like, let's plant a kilo of drugs in her car. Yeah. You know, I think that one thing that really stands out to me about this episode, and I recently, I just a couple of weeks ago did a talking dateline with Keith on his Murder in Magnolia's podcast series. And it was the same thing, this plot for hire to kill someone that fortunately never came to fruition. I am just stunned by how easily people can sit around and kind of hatch these ideas or talk about the notion of killing someone, paying to kill. I mean, it comes so easily in these discussions. And it's unbelievable, really. It is unbelievable because, like, number one, you have to be willing to take someone's life, okay? But then you have to think about what if I'm caught? I'm going to go to prison for the rest of my life. And what will happen to my children and all these different things? And then you still think it's a good idea? Still. Going through all these things. And the dumbest thing about Murder for Hire is that now you're involving another person. This person that you bring or people that you're bringing into this plot are not going to turn on you or tell someone else or like that's a lot of trust to place in someone. Yes, truly, truly. Well, there was so much in this episode. And coming up after the break, we will answer some of your questions from social media. As you can imagine, we have lots of social media. Yeah. Comments, questions, thoughts. We can go through a few of those. My favorite part. I love hearing from our faithful viewers. Well, listen, as you can expect, people had thoughts about this episode. Lots of thoughts. So let's go to the first one. Okay. At Rayford 512 asks, was Kelly a real mortician that did embalming or did she just sell caskets at the funeral home? Great question. When I asked Kelly about her role as a mortician, she went to school, learned how to embalm, but she didn't actually do embalming because, I guess, because of the Jewish faith, they do not embalm. Okay. So she had the skill. She just didn't put it into practice necessarily. This is from Fran Mackin. Okay, this is a good one. I would have liked more discussion on his comment to Andrea questioning why would he talk to her slash Dateline again after what they did to him the first time. Did he feel he was portrayed badly, edited badly? So he never said. He just kept walking and I kept, you know, calling out some more questions to him and then he was gone. And then even when I was sitting next to him in the courtroom, nothing, just silence. So, you know, only Ira would know what he is upset about. What he was thinking there. Okay. Here's one from Jamie Walsh Honeycutt. I know the doctors make a lot of dough, but his wealth seemed even more beyond that. What's the full story? Where did his money come from? Did he come from money? I'm not sure what his family situation was with money, but he had different centers, like foot centers. And he also, if I recall correctly, was buying properties, like real estate. Okay. So I think the money was coming from different places, but they lived in a beautiful house on a beautiful property. I have to say, when I first saw that aerial shot, like early, early in the episode, I said, oh my gosh, like what is his, what's this person's story? Because yes, that goes far beyond any just normal doctor wealth I've ever seen. And they had a lake, their own lake. I mean, it was beautiful. It was quite the estate. Yes. Yes. I'm curious, aside from, I mean, his prison and the divorce, did Susan get any other money from him? Just like a financial kind of penalty for trying to have her killed? Susan sued not only Ira, but Ira's sister as well for damages. And that is unresolved. Okay. Got it. Here's a question from at pennypumpkin33. Love it. Right. Was Markenzie getting paid to help with this investigation? I hope so. Not that I'm aware of. I think he just did it because he wanted to help and save Susan. Out of the goodness of his heart. Yeah. And here's one. This one's a comment. It's from at Eric T. Purser, who writes, wow, how do you get two easy sentences for attempted murder? I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing. Ira never actually pled guilty to conspiracy to commit murder. He pled guilty to tampering with evidence. and so you know there's only so much prison time that comes with a crime like that it was different from the first time around it was a trickier trickier case yes i think a lot of people would agree with that one absolutely well andrea this was a fascinating episode um i mean a case you followed for a long time and it was just really really just interesting to watch so thank you so much and thanks for talking Dateline with me. Thanks, Blaine. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Thanks so much as always for listening. Remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can always DM us your audio or video questions on social media at Dateline NBC, or you can leave us a voicemail on the telephone. The number is 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here on a Talking Dateline podcast. And don't forget to listen to Josh's new podcast, Trace of Suspicion, available now wherever you get your podcasts. And you can get early access to subsequent episodes and listen ad-free to all Dateline podcasts by subscribing to Dateline Premium. That's all for us now. We will, of course, see you Friday at 9, 8 central on Dateline on NBC.
