The Holderness Family Gets Real About Perimenopause

This episode contains references to child loss and death. Some listeners may find it distressing. Please listen with care and step away if you need to. He is the world's most sensitive understanding husband ever. He's like, don't need to explain it. We're good. Just go lay down and go for a walk, whatever you need to do. So everything, like, felt like I was being chased by a bear. And I really thought something was wrong with me. So that started before any of the physical stuff started. Yeah. And I was relieved to hear that, like, oh, that happens in Perry menopause. I just thought I was going crazy. So when did you hear that, though? Like, when did someone say, hey, it's my baby? You told me on the internet, which is like going to make me cry. Yeah. I mean, even the postpartum depression stuff, like there weren't women talking about it. They were talking about, like, how wonderful it was to have like a newborn baby. And I was like, I can't even walk them stairs without like fear of tripping. And it was, it was so hard. And then Perry menopause hit. And I just thought I was going crazy. I'm like, I'm so sorry you married me. The views and opinions expressed on on pause are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. There's some people who feel special to you even before you ever meet them in real life. I know it sounds strange, but if you've spent years laughing with them, learning from them and seeing your own life reflected back at you in their content, well, that connection is real. And Kim and Penn Holderness are absolutely those people for me. This husband and wife content creator team have had me and pretty much all of their followers laughing for years with their parodies, skits and blogs that tap right into the realities of family, relationships and life. They are bestselling authors, award-winning podcast hosts, and they were the winners of season 33 of the Amazing Race. Through the miracle of parasocial relationships, I felt like I knew them long before we ever met. And then about a year and a half ago, we finally met in person at the South by Southwest Film Festival. Then right after that, I promptly left my phone in an Uber, which honestly just tracks for me. Penn somehow managed to figure out how to track it down, contact the driver and get it delivered back to me. I'm not sure I could have done that by myself. He said it was because ADHD is a superpower, because apparently, leaving your phone behind all the time comes with a skill set in person. They were exactly who they are on camera. Warm, sharp, funny, real, no performance, no polish beyond authenticity. Then we discovered something else that made the night even more surreal. We both had books publishing on the exact same day. And for those of you who've never published a book, when two books come out on the same day in the same category, that usually means competition. The same lists, same ranking, same pressure. Kim and Penn with ADHD is awesome, and me with the new menopause. And yet there was never even a whisper of rivalry. We cheered each other on from the very beginning. When the New York Times bestseller list was announced, I was on vacation and intentionally limiting my social media. But then Kim texted me with the news. We had taken the top two spots on the list together. I honestly could not have written a better ending to a story if I even tried. I was screaming from the rooftops for all of us. Over the last few years, I've watched them navigate midlife, perimenopause, ADHD, and marriage. And we're going to dive into all of that. So today's conversation with them feels like a long time coming. It feels personal. It feels joyful. And it feels deeply aligned with what unpaused is all about. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board-certified obstetrician-gionicologist and certified menopause practitioner. I'm also an out-run professor of obstetric-signal oncology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to Unpaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. You know that moment when you catch yourself in a mirror halfway through the day and your makeup just looks faded? It looked great this morning. So what changed? Here's the truth. Most makeup isn't built to last with your skin. It's built to cover it. And over time, it breaks down, it settles, and it gets heavy. So instead of layering more on, what if you just changed what you were using? That's where OG comes in. 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And so we worked the night, so we did like 11 o'clock live shots, and then TV news business, local news, it's very incestuous. So like we would all like collapse our, you know, live shots, and then we'd all meet out at a bar somewhere. So, on like a Tuesday. On a Tuesday. Yeah. So I thought his name was Ben for like the first two weeks in U.M. and then I saw him do the worm at a nightclub, and I was like... Pretty typical story. Back off, ladies. That man is mine. So was it love at first sight or this might be a mistake, but I need to do this. Me was love at first sight, but then he had a girlfriend, and then I had a date like three guys named Steven Arowe, and so it took us a little while, but once we like decided it was, it was pretty quickly. I think we were engaged within like nine months and then married nine months after that. So we kind of found. Oh, wow. Yeah, we started out friends, which I just thought would be like a smart way to get to know her better because I never... It was cool. I always... I wanted to be, but she was on her Trampage that she was describing with the three consecutive steves. And so, you know, I was a sounding board for some of that, and I was dating people too. This is a menopause podcast, and he just said Trampage. Okay, anyway. You're the one who taught me that word. Yes. I am going to have to steal that. So, you know, ladies, you got to kiss a few frogs, and then... And that's okay. Yeah, but once we started dating, it was very obvious that it was it, and then we... there was this history. So you fall in love, get married. Are you still working as TV reporters at your respective stations? I took a job as a correspondent at Incident Edition, and so we moved to New York. Oh, wow. And then he was working for ABC Sports, the SPN, and so we lived there. So our daughter was born in New York, and then we ran out of money and space. So he took a job in North Carolina. So that's where we are today. So when did all of the internet stuff start? We had two small kids. He took some convincing, but then we did it. And then we did this Christmas Jammies video just sort of announced to our local... Like our friends, our family, like, yeah, I thought that maybe like my Aunt Linda would like share it on Facebook and we'd get a few phone calls about it. It was a slow news week, which like remember those. And I think every, like the Today Show, Good Morning America, CNN, like everybody ran that video. It got 17 million views in a week. And so that sort of changed everything. We tried to use that video as the opportunity to, hey, let's reach out to other companies and we can help produce and do what the amazing people in this room are doing to edit and shoot. And like, because we really were interested in that part. And the blowback kept being like, great, so when are you going to come in and your Christmas Jammies? And we're like, no, it's not, I don't know what we're going to do. It was very early in the influencer years. And there wasn't really like a handbook on how to do it. Most of the people who were doing it were that we talked to, it was like vloggers who really let people intimately into their lives and showed their children like all the time and the fights they got in. And those were most of the people we got exposed to. And that wasn't something that either of us were interested in. I mean, yes, our children were in these videos early, but we wanted to give them like agency and choice, which we didn't for the first one. We didn't realize it was going to be this big deal. Right, you're just like making a family video that went viral. And I'll go ahead and answer the question. Like we're still worried that we're going to screw our kids up and we probably already have. And they'll let you know. But that wasn't the kind of content we wanted to put out there. So it took a while to figure it out. We talk very openly that we did not know what we were doing. We put our kids on the internet before they had the ability to consent. Any criticism of that from them or anybody else is very fair. We have asked our kids and it is open. I'm like, we will delete any video, the Christmas jammies, any video you want and we're logged in, hit delete. And they are like, no, it can stand. I do think it's tough to be a kid in high school and have your teacher say, oh my gosh, I saw your parents' video like in front of the whole class. And that's happened a couple of times. So I think that was not their favorite. But they also know it comes with a lot of good. So your videos, I love because for multiple reasons, and I love that you're really leaning into the menopause, perimenopause space with the videos and your experiences. They don't feel like comedy about people. They feel like comedy with people. You know, like you're not making fun of the experience. You're like actually talking about the experience in a different way. What's that been like for you guys? Well, I think that just in general are sort of family motto or business motto is giving people permission to laugh. So that's at the core of what we do. And also we never punch down. And if we're going to make fun of something, we're going to make fun of ourselves. But also with the perimenopause and menopause stuff, it's hard because I don't want women to look at these characters I'm playing, maybe, or what we're doing and be like, oh, they're not capable of doing anything because they have brain fog. Because women are capable of a lot. And I don't want to weaponize menopause and make it seem so terrible. You're not at all. It's just relatable. It's just, but there's like a fine line. We've deleted videos that we've edited because I'm like, God, this makes women seem like they're just incapable of handling life because menopause is so bad and we still have to handle life. Yeah. So it's kind of like a needle worth threading there. What are you seeing in the comments like on those videos? For the most part is thank you for helping me feel seen and understood. And do you have a camera in our house? And then the second most common thing is my doctor bleep this up. Like those that, right? That would be number two. And that was like really eye-opening to me because I'd heard you say it. I'd heard her say it. But then hearing it from the general population and we didn't even mention a doctor in the video. But that's like one of the main comments between that and meeting all of your great friends in Austin. That was very eye-opening about like a real deficit in the world when it comes to healthcare. So on this podcast, we've had a ton of clinicians, a ton, mostly clinicians. We had two males so far. You're the third. Let's go. I'm a doctor. Yeah. That's why I have this square on my blazer. Okay. So my on Instagram, we all look at our demographics, right? That's our bread and butter. And on Instagram, I am 98.5% female. Yeah. And you don't want that. You don't want an echo chamber, right? No. But nice because the podcast we just started, shameless plug, is 40% male. So we got dudes listening. So like you're talking to, you know, what about y'all? Like what is your breakdown on your demographics? We're not quite 98.4. That's amazing. I think we are like 85% women. We are on our main platforms. YouTube, it's a little bit different. And like every platform has its own like favored gender. Yeah. It's so funny though. Like there's a reason why we're 85% female. Do you want to know? Tell me. Okay. Well, first of all, Kim is amazing and she's the star and I'm totally okay with that. But second of all, men don't know how to do social media in general. I'm just going to be stereotypical of the 40% here. If you guys, like if men like our videos, like if my friends like our videos, they'll text me. Dude, your video was really funny. Thanks. Did you hit that little heart button? Do you know anything else? Comment. No. I'm not going to let people know that I watch videos. Like, okay. So that's how we as a business spread and grow into the algorithm. When we made male friendly content, I'd get lots of text messages from my buddies, but it wouldn't do well because it wasn't making the algorithm because no one was commenting. We were on vacation with like some of our best friends. We had a video we'd pre-shot and it came out that day and our friend, he goes, yeah, that's really funny. I took his phone and I hit the heart button. He goes, are people going to see that I liked that? They are, Chris. They are. I'm like, because you liked it. He goes, I have to hit a heart button. Like it wasn't masculine enough or something. I mean, should we have like a little brew button or a dude button? Like a big muscle? Like a big strong man? Like a rucksack. But the truth is, like when it comes to our business, on the engagement side, men don't feel compelled or even comfortable sometimes doing that. We talk about all kinds of stuff. Usually it's relationships. Most of the time when men come up to us in airports and stuff, they say, even if they, I think there's some of them relying rather than saying, man, I love your videos. They're like, man, my wife really loves your videos. This one, this one, this one. And this one, I'm like, it sounds like you know about our videos too. Well, Chris, my husband is obsessed with you guys in a very healthy way. He talks about videos I've never seen. I love it. Oh, yeah, we do. And it's like the bro videos that you do with the other guys. Yeah. You know, like the algorithm is serving him completely different content than me. Like the spontaneous stuff is like your bro videos that he loves. Yeah. He has a crew of bros. He gets to hang out with us. So when you decided to do some menopause focus concept, perimenopause focus content, because you're doing your actual real lives, like, were you worried, were you scared, were you like worried about pushback or? It's interesting because we had an agent at one point. I was turning 40 and we started doing a lot of like, I'm 40 content. This was almost 10 years ago. And this agent said, you really shouldn't be telling people how old you are. Because if, if, you know, part of what we do just to be completely transparent is like, we partner with brands and that, you know, brands are really turned off by that. So we got new agents because what am I going to do? It's like hide the fact that I'm aging. We did have a discussion and because it is, it is very sensitive and people get uncomfortable when women freaking age and we just decided our channel, we focus on what's happening in our lives and we try to make it funny. What was ruling our house at the time was my Perry menopause and bless his heart. He came up with a name for her, Perry. And he's like, Perry's here, huh? And like, and so he even like wrote those sketches. Yeah, I wrote the first skit and I was that therapy for you. So here's what it was connection to me. So it was, I'm like, honey, some of this stuff is funny. She's like, yes, I know. I'm like, well, listen, I'm going to create this character. It's not you. It's not you. It's Perry. It's Perry. So Perry's not you. And she's like, I love it. Let's do it. So I wrote it in very few notes from the, from the first draft. Kim is so, so, so good at poking fun of herself. She's the most self-aware woman I've ever met. I said, I think that was like one of the things I said in our vows. Like, I knew this very early on. She is a wonderful woman who looks at herself occasionally as a hot mess and is super aware sometimes even real time when she's, when she's acting irrationally. She'll say, yeah, I'm acting irrationally right now. And it is, it's great. And I've tried to be more about, more like that myself. So in these videos, like letting there be Kim that we all know and also this other part of Kim that has to do with everything that's Perry menopause. Yeah. And may or may not have been terrorizing your household. Right. And like, let's face it, it was Kim. Yeah. That was Kim. But we, before we even put it out, we laughed at it and we felt connected. I wasn't fed up by it, but I was confused. Yeah. About some things that were going on. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that because I think we have a very large audience that is not a woman, you know, listening to this podcast, which is new for what I put out there. And I know every guy out there who's, has a wife who's starting or in the middle of this is like hanging on. So now you're the subject expert. Okay. What was it like? Like you guys are in your thirties living your best life, two kids, you're doing all this, you know, building this life together. And what, what, what was changing? The first things I noticed was there were moments that I think in the past she would process in real time and move on from. And I think she was just having a difficult time processing some of those things. And a lot of them weren't really even things that were going on in her body. It was empathy. She was feeling for other people or for the world around her. Because peri-menopause begins in the brain. Yeah. And that resilience change, that mental health, that, you know, processing change. So yeah, I love the way you put that, the way she was processing things was, was different. How did you, did you notice that? Cause you don't, when were you're in it? Yeah. You know, you're not observing it. You're in it. You have to be able to zoom out. And so it's, I couldn't for a long time. Well, he was wrong. Well, I, I knew that for a long time, here's, here's like my emotional capacity in my, my, my cup. And I could handle everything that was being poured into this. All of a sudden my cup felt so small. It felt like I was like, there was a fire hose being poured into like my capacity to deal with anything. I mean, I was like driving down the street shaking. I remember I was like in a whole foods and I was shopping and it was like grabbing the spaghetti sauce. And for whatever reason, like that trick, spaghetti sauce, right? Like marinara, like it was nothing. I put it down. I called Pan. I'm like, I'm coming home. I'm leaving my grocery cart and aisle three. And he's like, okay, got it. And I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me. And I've had panic attacks before, but I was like, this was usually around triggered by something. This was freaking marinara. And he, he is the world's most sensitive understanding husband ever. He's like, don't need to explain it. We're good. Just go lay down and go for a walk, whatever you need to do. Everything like felt like I was being chased by a bear and I really thought something was wrong with me. So that started before any of the physical stuff started. Yeah. And I was relieved to hear that like, oh, that, that happens in Perry menopause. I just thought I was going crazy. So when did you hear that though? Like when did someone say, Hey, you told me on the internet, which is like going to make me cry. Yeah. I mean, even the postpartum depression stuff, like there, there weren't women talking about it. They were talking about like how wonderful it was to have like a newborn baby. And I was like, I can't even walk them stairs without like fear of tripping. And it was, it was so hard. And then Perry menopause hit. And I just thought I was going crazy. I'm like, I'm so sorry you married me. Like you deserved like somebody who's like happy and can handle life. And I'm so sorry. And I was like apologizing to my kids. I was like, you're, you have a mom that like can't deal. And then I went to my doctor, bless her heart. She's like, yeah, this is normal. And, but I walked out with nothing. You know, normal means common, not, not you should deal with this. So because I have a husband who like, sorry, don't like, I'm trying to like get them back into my eyes. They're not going to run. Like, thank you. I would have given you this, but it's totally fake. I just like, I just reached for it and was like, well, shit. This must be a cheap blazer. What's the point of it? Sorry, like back to you. This is not about me. Well, because we, you know, have the access. I booked an appointment with like a functional. Right. Anybody, anybody like a phone. And so we could pay for that. And that pissed me off too. Cause I was like, our family, like he's like, absolutely do what you need to do, pay for what you need to pay for. But not everybody can do that. And so now it's being talked about. People are getting it covered by insurance, but like four or five years ago. And then she, um, this sweet angel of a doctor gave me progesterone. And I was like, like, I was like, I didn't feel like stabbing people all the time. There was more to it. A couple of years later. Yeah. A couple of years later, I ended up, she recommended I go talk to a psychiatrist. We unpack some stuff. I am on like a wonderful combination of medicine there. I'm loving life. Everything is great. But without that, I just look at women walking around this world that are being told this is normal and walking out of the doctor's office with a pat on the back. The most likely time for a woman to commit suicide is between 45 and 55. That feels right. Like that feels awful. There's a reason. But I have to say, like I was, have the happiest marriage. I have healthy kids. I have a wonderful life. And I'm like, I want out of here. Like I can't, I hear it. It happened to me. I hear it not to that degree. But I, I've heard this in patient. I have a good life. Everything's great. I've been living this life. I built the life of my dreams and I'm not okay. Yeah. And so I'm here because of some good pharmaceuticals and a loving husband. Sponsored by Pfizer. Sponsored by whoever wants to sponsor it, right? Whatever I'm taking. And I got on my journey and it got to the point where we were able to see the funny in it. And that is sort of what we do is that we get to look around at our lives and say, like, is that funny? And when you zoom out and you're out of crisis and I was out of crisis at that point, I'm like, it is kind of funny what we're going through here. And, and anybody my age is probably going through this in their marriage because it becomes a family issue at that point. If your skin or your nervous system feels a little overwhelmed lately, this may be your sign to simplify. 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If your skin is changing, your skin care should change too. With Alloy, you counsel with a doctor and receive expert guidance and have your treatment delivered right to your door. Head to myalloy.com and use code MCH20. That's MCH20 to get $20 off your first order. So tell me your side of this. She did not conceal any of this, I don't believe. I think we talked about it pretty openly. I think part of me was trying to help her diagnose because there is a lot of questionable, like what's going on. So just medically, you'd had some pretty intense menstruations throughout most of your life to the point that you thought you might have endometriosis, or now it's endometosis or whatever it like. I've had endometriosis. Endometriosis is an evil twin. Right. So I had been trained with some moments that you even said. Shits going down. This is happening right now. This is really heavy. I'm feeling. To the point where he's like, it was Shark Week. I know when Shark Week was. I get that. I will say that as this is all happening, as a man who wants to feel connected and to feel intimacy, like that's going to ebb when this happens. And so I felt like I could be useful and helpful, but also lonely because I can't super relate to what she's doing. And I've got to give her more space than I'd like to. I think that's like stuff that it's all passed and gotten a lot easier. And I've learned that like intimacy means something different from when you're 20. It's just all the time. That's exactly how we did it. But like all of that was hard. Like actually feel for men who say the same thing because I think that there's shame that comes with it. And that limits communication and intimacy. And there's also just like fear. Like is this what it is, what she is, what we are. What would be your advice? I mean, there's guys listening going, okay, bro, you know, you're the only dude talking about this on the internet. So let's, you know. I think finding new connection points. Like this is a really good opportunity to do that. I think that our Disney Prince nature of wanting to like sweep someone off their feet and be the solution. This is going to be the time that you learn that that's not what you do. This is where you listen and you empathize and you're there for her in ways that you're not normally there for people. And like that's really strengthened our relationship. I think me learning that. Also, I got a really good piece of advice. We had this guy on who does like, he's a guy who's on TikTok talking to other husbands about perimenopause. Oh, I think on who that is. He's amazing. Yeah. So he said something about intimacy. I'm not just talking about sex, like intimacy and connection that like it really only works when the woman is relaxed. For guys, we could be skydiving. Yeah. And it's, and everything's going to work. But like imagine all the things that's going on in their body and understand how impossibly difficult it is to just be relaxed. And so that was like a really cool piece of advice to me as well because I was feeling that. Do you feel like this was the hardest season of your marriage? I do believe for Penn, his love language is physical touch. And when I was in my feelings, I did not want to be touched at all. And so he, I had to communicate to him, this has had nothing to do with my love for you. I love you so much. I'm, because he wants to, when he sees me in panic, in crisis, he wants to, and there are moments, I love that. There are moments I want, like just like wrap me up and hug me. But you usually like three to six feet. Yeah. You're like COVID. You're like that sort of amount of social distance. I want you here, but I don't want you touching me. Right, exactly. And once he sort of realized that that's the way I could operate, I will say our relationship is deeper and better. I think we're closer now than we have been. But yeah, there were some bumps in the road because it's hard not to take it personally, right? Because you do go from like having like a very nice regular sex life to, you know what, I just can't be touched right now. Or any sort of, not just like having sex, but any sort of that intimate feeling when you have true connection with your partner. Because sometimes I just needed to be alone. And I think he got it quickly and he learned not to take it personally. But yeah, it's hard not to take it personally. So here's the toughest part. Like she's been incredibly communicative about it. And I believe her. Like I don't think, the first instinct you get when something like this happens is it's me, right? Every guy, they get that. And then in the next instinct, which you don't want is somebody else. Like is there something else that would make her happy? Right, right. Does she maybe want to be with women? Like, you know, that's. I mean, sometimes. Right, why not? I'm taking this here. And so like I'm completely at peace with trust and totally understand that she's saying what she believes. But then my subconscious has no control over that. So I have like crazy dreams like from time to time. And I can't do anything about that. But for men that I would guess is the biggest challenge. And there are a lot of men out there and in Penn hears from them that do not believe whatever is happening here. Yeah, that's a whole different thing. And that's a divorce waiting to happen. And like that's a different podcast, but he there are some men that have walked up to me like, yeah, that menopause stuff, right? Like she's full of it, some stuff like that. And Penn is a good ally, ladies, because he will say actually, and he'll throw some science at them. So. Do you feel like you're on the other side now? Of what? I guess we're never going to get to the other side. So I didn't know I was going through perimenopause when I was going through it. Like we learned how to pronounce it in medical school and residency and like it's a transition. What's that? I'm still having periods. I don't know, but like I couldn't stand for him to hold my hand. I was aggravated with everything and it was an inflection point and a lot of things. My parents were starting to get old and need us more. Kids were becoming teenagers like, like, you know, like many of us in the stage, there was all of this other stuff. And then my resilience wall was coming down. You know, my brother was dying and I do feel like now, now we're totally empty nested. Okay. And he's retired from his job. He's now helping me in our, but you know, I just feel like we're lifers now, right? You know, but it was in that perimenopause. Time and figuring it all out that I felt like that was the furthest apart we were in those times where I was like, are we going to make it? Got it. Like, am I better off not in this relationship? That did bubble up a few times. I do believe we are on the other side of whatever that was. I still very much am aware of what's happening. I'm very peri right now, like a very perimenopausal. I am medically really like tapping my foot waiting for actual menopause because I'm hoping that it's coming. I promise. So you guys want it to come? It's, it's like as a clinician, it's treating a woman in perimenopause. Yeah. It's like pinning the tail on a moving donkey. Right. And you know, you get that tail on the donkey goes over here and then you got to switch this and whatever. Like once they're postmenopausal, it is so much easier for me as a doctor. Is there like, do you, how do you know? Is there a blood test? Like, you know, medically. The candy can goes off outside your vagina. Yeah. The close for business sign goes up. And that's good. So as far as what's going on hormonally, you flat line and that's like easier to resuscitate. So blood test. Then so blood test and listening to symptoms. But you know, the brain stuff calms down a lot. So my patients who like their main complaint was the mental health or cognitive stuff. That is much easier to kind of manage in postmenopausal. And then the bleeding stops, you know, and so the, the. Okay. So it's just your period. Stop getting your period. Right. That's the, and that coincides with subsiding some of these wonderful traits than like love you, but things that you don't like very much. Oh yeah. Right. And so, you know, once we kind of put out the fire, the manager, the management and stuff, you know, once women are postmenopausal, we're focusing on the next 30 years. Like at that point, her whole focus shifts to keep me out of a nursing home, you know, like, The longevity stuff. Like I got, yeah, look, I don't want to break. I don't want to lose my independence. So like, and I know I have a wonderful opportunity here to set myself up for success for the next 30 years. So that's like the funnest part of my job. The most difficult part is helping her manage perimenopause. Got it. Which wasn't even a thing. Like that was not a thing. We couldn't treat a menopausal patient until she was a year past her last period. So we just let her like wing it. I feel so sorry for my mom and people, my mom's generation because they were told to get off estrogen and freaking deal with it. My mother was sedated. Like, I remember the butasol pills, you know, that I had to go get when she was having a moment of crisis. And so, you know, I go get her little pills and butasol and like go bring them to her. And, you know, it was probably a placebo effect because like she take one immediately. Everything was better. So, you know, I was in medical school and that memory bubbled up because we were in pharmacology. And I was like, what? What was she doing? This is something they gave for seizures. Like, yeah, butalbutol. It is a cousin of phenobarbital. I mean, and if, and if I weren't on all the medicine I'm on right now, I would say give it to me. Is there like a connection between like how strong someone's menopausal symptoms are with like how like how much empathy they're like how much empathy they're feeling in the world around them? Like how much, you know, no one's looked at that. What we know is if you had a really rough postpartum, like if you had postpartum depression, postpartum, you know, anxiety, any of that stuff, you were like, you are a ringer for having a rougher menopause. The healthier you are. Now, I hate to say this because I have triathletes, you know, who just get gobsmacked through the menopause transition. But it tends to be the healthier your diet, the more you exercise, the more your, you know, symptoms will be worse. But I mean, you know what? Throw that out the window. It is what it is. But I don't think anyone yet is looking at if you're more empathetic person, then all of a sudden your resilience, they pull out the carpet from under your feet. Like if you're going to suffer worse menopause, then we have estrogen receptors, progesterone, antistatum receptors everywhere in our body. So someone's top priorities might be her joint pain. She is not functional, you know, but her mental health is fine. You know, it is such a cornucopia of like how this might hit you. So what I've learned through just taking care of menopause now is like, what are your goals? For you, it was mental health. It sounds like, you know, like, you know, you're an athlete, you're, you're, that's not an issue for you. Like physically, I mean, besides wild periods, there's not, not for some, it's like, I can't be bleeding through a meeting, right? You know, and changing a diaper, you know, with the bleeding or anemia. Yeah, like I'm totally fine. 15% of us won't have hot flashes. So, you know, just your thermal regulatory center is fine in the brain. But, you know, we see across, historically across the menopause transition, we double the amount of women who need an SSRI. And what we're learning now is we probably should start them early soon and often on estrogen, progesterone, whatever combination to stabilize mental health. And they may need something, an SSRI, SNRI, you know, one of the antidepressant, anti-anxiety meds still, but we probably were over treating. With some of these meds, when really what they needed was estrogen, you know, or some hormone support. I believe it. I had really wild postpartum anxiety, depression, and then that's when I first got diagnosed with OCD. I'm probably glad I didn't know that a wild postpartum experience would have made, because I think I would have been anxious about that. About that. So, well, we've ripped the Band-Aid off and now we're telling the world. Sorry. Sorry, guys. Talk to me some more about that, because I had remembered in medicine back when I, this was when the Andrea Yates thing happened and it was, it was right by where we were training. So she was in Clear Lake 20 miles from Galveston. You remember this? Andrea Yates drowned her children. She had postpartum hallucinations and her voice is telling her to drown her children. Anyway, so like it was that or you were fine. I was not taught anything in between. We had screening. Like we didn't want to miss the woman who was going to hallucinate and like destroy her family. You know, so we were screening for like the most severe symptoms. Really, it was like, you'll be okay. This will pass. You know. Yeah. So I remember having intrusive thoughts with Catherine, my oldest of her drowning. She's in a carrier. She can't like swim, you know, like there's no. We're not in your pool. She's fine. Yeah. So I remember being like at my six week appointment, I was asked like, are you, are do you have visions of hurting your children? And like, oh God, no, like that wasn't it. That's how we were screening. Are you thinking about hurting yourself or someone else? Okay. No, check. Move on. Move on. And it was actually our pediatrician. I think it was like our, my like a 12 week appointment or something with my son and Penn was there and I was having trouble nursing and I wasn't sleeping and like there was just so much going on. And the doctor came in was like a can of formula and it was like, you need to take care of yourself. You were there and looked at him like she needs to get some help because I was just like, he wasn't gaining weight and then, and it was this whole, and I was just, could not handle it. And the doctor asked, how are you doing? And I, he was there because I couldn't drive because I was so afraid. I had visions of semi truck hitting our car. I couldn't walk downstairs holding him because I would like sit on my button, scoot down because I would never hurt my head visions of the opposite. So it wasn't until the pediatrician flagged it. And then he drove me to a psychiatrist. Should there be a better way to ask that question in the screening? Yeah. I mean, probably is better now, but you know, the way we were, this happened, we had no screening before, right? We knew about postpartum depression, but like, you know, it's so shameful. Like, like the patients were so reluctant. I remember like people bringing in their husband coming with the wife and like, she's not okay. But you didn't want to be the Andrea Yates. You didn't want to be thought of like, I could hurt my kids. Cause you know, it should be crazy. School of medicine. And that's like when mommy bloggers were like a thing and it was like 2008, 2009. And I was desperately seeking a voice that's would saying like, this is really hard. And I think women were afraid to say it was hard because they didn't want to be thinking like, oh, I'm going to go hurt my kid. And it sounds, it sounds unnatural. Sounds incriminating. Right. Right. Especially if you ask it that way. It, maybe something like, were you really surprised to get this thought that you quickly pushed away, but it's not what you really believe in. Yeah. That's probably a more accurate thing or the best of the doctor was like, you know, I had this thought when I was, because again, empathy is this way. Making you feel normalize it. Empathy is how this movement is growing. Yeah. It's you guys sharing your stories and feeling not broken, not alone. And like there's a way to get out of it. I think that's the internet good and bad as we've all learned. It's allowed the sharing of experiences that were kept hidden before and people going, oh, that's me. Yeah. You know, I feel seen. Right. Yeah. Many of you know, I've spent my career pushing for better medical standards for women. Midi health is on that same mission, delivering the kind of care women have always deserved. For too long, women have been told to just deal with perimenopause and menopause symptoms. Your labs are normal. This is just a part of aging. Eat less, work out more. That approach failed us. And it's exactly why both my work and midis exist. Midlife and menopause aren't the beginning of the end. They're a critical window of opportunity. But education is only half the battle. Women need access to clinicians who actually understand the science of female aging. That's the gap. Midi was built to close. Midi is focused on health span, not just lifespan. That means looking at your metabolic health, bone density, cardiovascular risk, and cognitive function. It's the kind of proactive evidence-based care I've always believed women deserve. And it's exactly what Midi delivers. And here's what matters most. 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To dry to damp hair before drying, it helps smooth, soften, and enhance shine, leaving hair looking polished. What makes this routine stand out is just how simple it is. Just two steps that work together to create a sleek, glossy look without extra products or extra time. Because getting ready should feel easy, not like a chore. Go to launchhair.com and use the code UNPAUSE to get 20% off your first order. That's L-A-N-G-E-H-A-I-R dot com and use the code UNPAUSE for 20% off at checkout. So you got diagnosed with ADHD as an adult? Yeah. Not as a kid. I was 21. How? College? How? Do you want to know what happened? Yeah. So I, first of all, I was on academic probation twice in college. On purpose? He had an awesome time in college, you guys. I had the ability to go to classes more than I actually did, but no. I mean, my Ritalin was my mom growing up. But way before anyone knew what ADHD even was, she helped regulate my emotions and she helped me get my homework done. She knew that I was smart but that I needed some self-starting skills, which she tried to instill in me. And then when that didn't happen, she just kind of said, here, come on, I'm going to hold your hand and do this with you. And so I was getting some bad grades in college, but I still was having an awesome time. I was at my grandmother's funeral in between my junior and senior year. And she was like the first time I had no grandparents on one side of my family. So there was this big beach trip that our family took for two weeks and it was the most important week of the year, two weeks of the year for me because I really felt at home. And I think everyone had ADHD there, probably. We all got along great. And so the family was having this talk about what we were going to do next in this room in Tarburn, North Carolina. And I started daydreaming about all the great times we'd had and what are we going to do now. And all of a sudden, my aunt, Zell, she says, Penn, I'm sorry, none of us can concentrate because you're chewing on a used fly swatter. So I picked up a fly swatter. There's a lot of flies in Eastern Carolina in the summer. And while I was thinking, I put it in my mouth and I started chewing on it with no idea that I was doing it whatsoever. But it was like whatever. That was a fidget for me, right? Right. And that was gross. And everyone laughed. I did not laugh. I felt like I went from, you're a space cadet, you're an adorable space cadet to is there something fundamentally wrong with me? So I drove myself to a doctor and he diagnosed me very quickly. And did you even know that was a thing? Yes. I had heard of it before. Okay. And did you feel like an alien? Before or after? I guess both. I felt like an alien most of my childhood. Okay. I mean, I would chew on my shirt to the point that there was a saliva circle that went all the way around here. I had a lot of like acquaintances, but not a lot of close friends because I did not know how to let people finish their story without jumping in. I had wild creativity and understanding of music that most of my friends didn't have. But when I was asked to take piano and a recital and sit and look at music, I couldn't read the music and didn't want to read the music. I just wanted to hear the sounds and just reproduce them. So like in some ways, good alien, but in a lot of ways, just kind of bad alien. Most important thing was I cried all the time. Like if something didn't go my way, it flooded me emotionally and it went on way, way later than most kids. Like it happened to me in high school sometimes. So that was probably in the playground society that I lived in, probably the most alien that I felt. And then after you got the diagnosis, you felt you had a you had a name. Yeah. But no one explained the emotional side of ADHD in the 90s. And I think they're just barely doing it now. I just felt like it was like all in reference to how you were doing scholastically. Right. Yeah. You know, that was the measure of not how you see the world or this was we need you to do well in school. That's why I did it. And I they gave me drugs. I took them. They gave me something called dexadrin, which apparently is like a myth. Yeah. Yeah. You can cook it. So I was on meth my senior year and I cut better grades. This is amazing. They gave me no behavioral interventions or systems or anything. Understandably, like this was it was a medical model. They looked at a problem and they tried to fix it. And so it actually took quite a while to to realize a that I the medicine personally was stunting my creativity and all the music that I heard in my head. I didn't hear it anymore. And then much later, after I'd found a job that actually worked for ADHD, which is if you're watching us on any device, like most of us have ADHD because it just is conducive, but much later, a lot like a woman who starts getting overtaxed with a family and a job, like stuff started falling through the cracks for me in my mid forties. And that's when we started working on the book. How's the book going? And you guys have a new book, right? We do. The book is growing great. It continues to just sell. People are interested in it. And we didn't expect it. And the book is. Oh, it's called sorry. It's called ADHD is awesome. And we have a children's book. Yep. And we have a new children's book this year, too. I know we're writing a bunch of books about ADHD, which wasn't the direction we thought we were going to go in. But much like you, we thought we had like a hopeful, positive message around it. And do ADHD menopause have so much in common? They've been and I'm not even talking clinically, like they're they both need to be destigmatized. Yep. They're both underdiagnosed. They're in a lot of times not perfectly understood by health care and by doctors. Yeah. Right. There's there's deniers out there who say it's not a thing. You're just complaining. And then on top of that, apparently menopause gives you ADHD. So it makes you feel like you've got you've got ADHD. Is the term we're using now. Yeah. So, you know, your your resilience drops, your coping skills drop, your whatever. And you, you know, it's a spectrum, right? I'm on the other end of it where I can hyper focus and shut the whole world out. And that's great when you're a doctor and studying for medical school is horrible when you have children who are like, mom, mom, mom, mom. And you're so focused on what you're doing. But it's exploding right now, the conversation around. Changes in cognition and attention and focus in the menopause transition. And so what have you guys seen on your social media? It's really complicated because women are under diagnosed with ADHD, like more way or so. It took like my kids both have it. Right. Yeah. And it's because y'all are tougher than us. You're you're you're better at internalizing your difficulties. So when you're a kid, the time that it's most often diagnosed, it's my kids were well behaved. It's masked because they were pleasantly staring out the window and not causing any distractions. We're allowed and we're doing karate in the middle of church. And so like we get diagnosed. And then for women, they become they become women, they become moms. They have to do so like they have to do sign up genius. And that's like the low key kryptonite for ADHD. And for some reason, like every time I'm on sign up genius, I'm the only dude who's on there. But I think those executive functioning challenges really happen when you become a working parent or even a parent, right? And so then they're getting diagnosed at a later age. Yeah. Kind of close to perimenopause. I think those waters are muddied for us. We've like that book was written largely for parents who have kids with ADHD and for maybe teenagers or 21 year olds, young adults who've been diagnosed. And so the parents are reading it and going, whoa, wait a second. So many people. We have we had a girlfriend and she's 50. She read it just because she was like being supportive of us. And she's like, holy shit, Penn, I think I've ADHD. As you went and she did the full diagnosis with the psychiatrist, she did everything she goes, my childhood makes so much more sense. And a lot of women are being diagnosed when they're kids diagnosed because they're filling out the questionnaire going, holy crap, that's me. That's not normal. And I think it's such a relief for women just to have a name for it. Yeah. Right. And you could be gentler on your nine year old self, right? Like looking back. We love being part of the conversation on ADHD. And finally, finally, there are studies being done on women and girls now. Yeah. Because all the other ADHD studies, it was mostly male participants. This is all of medicine. And all of medicine. Unless you're pregnant. And so I know it was Duke University. They have a women's center for ADHD. And so they're awesome. Yeah. But you know what? Medical studies, the good ones take a long time. So we would love to get a megaphone and talk more about women with ADHD. But the studies are are just lagging. What we do know is that genetically, women are just as likely to have ADHD. But they're chronically underdiagnosed. And we've been, you know, we get to go to these book signings and we meet. We met so many people and the moms that come and hug pen for their kids to be seen. But they have tears in their eyes because they just got diagnosed. But then they'll put the audio bug on. The husbands will listen to it and just be gentler. And I think when there's like an understanding, because when when there's the mom, the who's ADHD in the house is sort of like falling apart, it's really easy to like blame her, you know? And if there's an explanation for it and if there are systems that could be put in place. Listen, like when you give a kid or an adult or anybody, whatever the condition is, an understanding of what's going on in their brain, like they immediately are more likely to want to get to work and try to make it less than an excuse to like try to try to make the world around them bend to its will. I loved your book because as a parent, as a doctor, I was one of the not naysayers. But, you know, I really felt like people who would medicate their children this was a cop out. You just need to love them through this, you know? And then I tried to love my daughter so hard through it and got you lovers and a lot of screaming at the table. We went over this question 75 times. You still got it wrong, you know, whatever. And then finally, a couple of her teachers were like, you should go get her tested, you know, and my older daughter had had some dysgraphia. And, you know, we had gotten her all the stuff. But my youngest had these this core group of friends she's still best, best friends with. It's the most beautiful relationship. And they were all straight A perfect, perfect, perfect grades, all the things. And my daughter was always on the struggle bus, you know? That's so hard. And she was growing up with this thought of I'm not smart. And we took her to the pediatrician and she said, let's get her tested. And I think you're going to be able to give her a gift. That's a really great way to put it. And I burst into tears because all of my prejudice and bias and everything I felt about this diagnosis and me as a failure as a parent and I didn't love her enough and I didn't provide the right structure or whatever she needed. You know, this she's like, let's give her a gift. How to turn out. She's fabulous. She's perfect. Her grades shot up immediately, which, you know, that's again, another problem, parental thing of like, if my kids are making good grades, I'm a good mom. It doesn't equal well being. Yeah. Yeah. And then my older daughter was diagnosed much later. She coped and had skills, you know, whatever until the MCAT. That was her breaking point of I need some help here because I can all these systems I had in place aren't working to for me to get through this next level. And then, of course, she's been on meds through med school and doing great. Everything, everything is fine. But like, God, you know, in reading your book, I sobbed because I wish I would have had that as a parent, you know, when they were little and I didn't get it and I didn't understand, even though I was a doctor and I wasn't a pediatrician, but, you know, it just would have been so much easier for my kids. And I would have brought them in sooner and just been a better resource for them. And I mean, listen, we're not against medication at all. Medicine's been graced, but there's a lot of things that are just don't require Medicaid. Yeah. And in our school system, it's like hard to get extra time. Our kid has ADHD and he has a learning plan. Extra time is like really hard to get. But I'm like, wait, if they if if he can get a hundred on the test, if he has extra time, like, why does it what what what job is he going to have to recite all of like pre-calculus in like 30 minutes as opposed to 45? Anyway, it's yeah, that whole timing thing is it's wild. It's wild. Amazing. Now it's time for the midi pause. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, host of the podcast, Unpaused, bringing you a word from MIDI Health. Today, we're facing the truth. Aging is inevitable. But how you age, that's completely in your hands. This stage of life is not an end. It's an evolution. And with the right strategies, you can reclaim control over your body, your mind and your future. I call it my menopause toolkit. And it starts with six foundational pillars. Nutrition focused on anti-inflammatory foods, protein and fiber. Movement, especially strength training and daily activity, protecting your sleep because it is the backbone of your hormonal and cognitive health. Working with a knowledgeable provider on personalized pharmacology, managing stress through mindfulness, gratitude and embracing progress over perfection. And finally, community, because no one of us should be doing this alone. That's exactly what MIDI Health is built around. Care for women that focuses on maximizing health span and helping you with your menopause toolkit. Living longer, more active lives, not just longer ones. MIDI offers personalized care that leverages evidence-based interventions tailored to your life. It's never too early or too late. Wherever you are in your journey, MIDI Health will meet you there with the solutions you need. Women come to MIDI to address the symptoms they experience every day. MIDI partners with you to find the right treatment, whether that's HRT or a non-hormonal solution, giving special attention to the four areas that matter most as we age. Hormone optimization, specialized nutrition, resistance training and targeted therapies. Progress starts with a personal plan. That's why the MIDI approach centers on a holistic combination of solutions from medications to lifestyle changes with a care plan built for your body and your needs. By doing so, MIDI Health is setting a new standard for healthcare. As the nation's fastest growing women's telehealth company, MIDI provides accessible insurance covered services designed by medical experts. Building on its leadership in perimenopause and menopause, MIDI fills the critical health gaps women face at every age and life stage. If you want a clinician in your corner who truly understands what your body and brain need right now, that's exactly what MIDI is built for. Go to joinmidi.com, joinmidi.com and connect with one of their clinicians today. Now you are half empty nesters. Yeah. How's that going? You were texting me a few times, giving me a heads up. I was not prepared for how sad I was going to be. You told me, but like until you live it. So my, my daughter's off to college, my son's at home. I think the lack of estrogen in the house, I felt like it's just like, I'm just very aware of how much testosterone there is in my house right now. I'm obsessed with my son. I love my son so much. But when she left, I was very unprepared for how sad I was going to be. And it's just cruel that this happens during perimenopause. Yeah, that's a lot going on at the same time. It's a lot going on at the same time. How do you keep your relationship from turning into a shared Google calendar since you're working together so much? Oh, that is such a funny question. Like who makes the decisions on what you're going to do? I know you have managers and all that now, but. We're more like the, the making the content. Creative. So that's been really useful. Still, the question is a good one because it's a good one. The question is a good one because it's, it's hard to be off sometimes. Like even when everyone's done, you go to work unemployed every single day because whatever it is that you put out is out. And then whatever is next is, it's, it's, it's not like a six month lead time, like a movie, it's one or two days. Like what's next? And so for that reason, we've talked about this, like the challenges of going to dinner and like not talking about work. I think we were a lot better about it. I think we are still married because we have Emory Sam and Desmond who work with us and they take a lot of the, just the work part of it out so we can stay married. Because when it was just the two of us, it was, that was really hard. And it was all we talked about. So now we challenge ourselves, like we go out to dinner and we don't talk about like work, but now our next challenge is to go out to dinner and not talk about word, word, kids. Yeah, that's what we're going to talk about. Yeah, like, what? I literally bought conversation cards. No, those are great. It was great because I asked a couple of questions and it got off of, I'm like, we've been married long enough that I need conversation cards. But it was. It's like conversation Viagra. No, seriously, like it's. It got things going. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, it was. Yeah. And it was, it keeps, it keeps the dinners from spiraling into like, OK, but then he has a basketball game when we get back, but then we have to leave town on Saturday night. Yeah. OK, this is going to end like he's 16. I know. And then what are you going to talk about? I mean, so the big things you talk about at dinner are work, kids, extended family, just like other people, parents, our parents or whatever. I get like, if she asks me, I can talk about space and science fiction for six straight hours, but that's a one sided conversation. Yeah, I actually pulled out my camera because we were having a dinner. It was like no work, no kids. And then I asked him about sure. I'll talk about quantum entanglement. He's the book he's reading and I just he is talking for so long, he didn't realize I'd taken out my phone and hit record because he was just if you need filler on a podcast, he can come on and talk about space for a really long time. So but I try to be interested in it because he's interested in it, but I'm this is a lot. I know, I know. So but it's a good question. But honestly, when she got the conversation things, even like the book of questions, I think everyone who ever went to a camp where they were trying to hook up with a girl at a Christian camp, but you wanted to ask him a question, like you probably have like, wait, that was too much information. There's this thing called the book of questions that would like is a really good way to get to know people better. How many girls do you hook up? I was unsuccessful at the time. You guys have got to make your own set of conversation cards for middle aged, like over the hump. Yes. You know, that's a good idea. We're going to call it conversation by any commission on this conversation by Agra, like, you know, for those of us who make it over the hump, make it over the hump. I mean, and then what are we going to talk about for the next 30 years? Honestly, I'm very excited. I'm going to do this. I know I'm obsessed with my son. I'm going, you're going to have to like peel me off the floor when he goes to college, but I am looking forward to that time in life. All right. Thank you so much for coming on on pause. Well, I'm very thankful for you and all the work you're doing. I, and I'm just, it makes me so sad that my mom didn't have a you, you know, way back when. So thanks for what you're doing and thanks for having us here. And I'm glad to see you haven't lost your phone. Thank you, my hero. Yeah, he's good like that. Well, thanks for having us. All right. You can find more information about Ken and Ken's books, podcasts and social channels at theholdernessfamily.com. You can find full episodes of I'm paused on YouTube at Dr. Mary Claire. I'd love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Mary Claire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness and navigating midlife at the pause life.com. My new book, the new Perry mental pause is available now everywhere you buy books. If you're loving this podcast, I have an important request. Please take a moment to follow. I'm paused on your favorite podcast app. Following and listening is what pushes this information to more women who need it. So if this podcast has helped you feel seen, understood or supported, pick follow right now. So you never miss an episode. Thank you for being here with me. Let's keep going. Un paused. Un paused is presented in conjunction with pod people. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on un paused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. 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