115 | Part 4: 4X Super Bowl Champ Jesse Sapolu Discusses Coach Dick Tomey's Legacy: Transforming Lives Through Football and Culture

This is Becoming Undone. From my earliest memories as a human being, I have always loved football. Not just appreciated it, not just watched it, not just enjoyed it. I freaking loved it. My dad was a mechanic who was born and raised in Northern Indiana. Before I was born, he and my mom packed up and moved to Los Angeles looking for a new life and new opportunities. I was born in Fontana, but before I was even a year old, they moved back to Indiana. And not long after that, they thought maybe they should move again. They decided it would be better to raise my sister and me somewhere safer, somewhere with better opportunities, somewhere with schools that didn't have metal detectors like they saw in California and Indiana. So they settled on Southern Illinois. You know, I appreciate the sentiment I do, but pardon me, has always resented the reality. Because it meant I never got a chance to play organized football. In all of my parents' 80-some-odd years of living on this planet, they spent exactly 12 of them at an address where the public school where they lived didn't have a football team. All the rest, football places. But 12 of them, no football. You guessed it, the exact 12 years I was in school. And it gets worse. Not only did we not have a high school team, we didn't have a middle school team. No pop-owner, no flag football, nothing. Even though my friends and I played two-hand touch almost every day of every recess in elementary and even middle school, we had nowhere to play real-life, pad and helmet tackle football, ever. Today, living in Central Texas and spending the previous 14 years in West Texas, I tell my friends this and they look at me as though, as Ralphie said in a Christmas story, quote, I had lobsters crawling out of my ears, end quote. They'd be like, no, seriously, what position did you play? I'm telling you, dude, my school didn't even have a team. They still don't. And they'd be like, stop lying. You went to school in America, right? No, I swear, no team, no chance, no lie. I guess the fact that I never could play football made it all the more worse considering how much I loved it. My first memory of seeing a football game was probably Super Bowl XV with the Raiders versus the Eagles when I was five. I can remember the logos a little bit, not a lot, but the first game I really recall watching and knowing enough about the game to actually follow was the 1981 NFC championship game between the San Francisco 49ers and my dad's favorite team, the Dallas Cowboys. Now I'm realizing right now that I never really asked my dad how he decided he would watch and follow the Cowboys being as he was a product of Indiana transplanted to California and ending up in Illinois. Come to think of it, I don't think my dad had ever some just set foot in Texas at that point in his life, let alone had any reason to really cheer for the Cowboys. Other than at the time, it was kind of the thing to do. America's team and all that jazz. Anyway, I don't remember all the details, so I had to look them up. January 10, 1982, a couple of weeks shy of my seventh birthday, Candlestick Park. The Cowboys roster featured names I'd soon come to memorize and hold as cherished childhood heroes. Danny White, Tony Dorsett, Drew Pearson, Randy White, Everson Walls, Ed Tutile Jones, and of course who could forget legendary coach Tom Landry in a sport coat in his signature fedora. The Cowboys held the lead deep into the fourth quarter, knew that if they could just hold on they'd play in the Super Bowl, although I still wasn't totally sure what that was, I still knew that it was good. I remember the game was almost over with my dad's and now soundly my team, the Cowboys ahead 27-21. I love that cool star on the helmet. Not long after that game, I spotted a replica Cowboys helmet in the leftover Christmas edition of the Sears catalog, the Wishbook. If you're a Gen X kid, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. This was a two bar face mask, single point chin strap, back in those days to order from Sears you had to go to the Sears store, put your money down, pay for it, and then wait however long it took for your order to arrive, usually a week or two. Once it came in they'd call you and you'd go pick it up. I waited what fell like months for it to arrive using what I recall for some reason was exactly $22 of saved Christmas and birthday money so that I could buy it. We lived like 20 miles from the store but when they called I went into a frenzy. It's here, when are we going to go get it? When can we leave? Can we go now? I think we should go now. Let's go. My helmet is in. There's remembering a moment and then there's not being able to forget it. This moment is so seared into my brain that I cannot forget it. I walked in the store in Harrisburg, Illinois, Parker Plaza shopping center. Eyes probably bugged out like it was some kind of tweaker looking for an illegal drug or something so they had my mom sign something and they go in the back and they bring it out. I'm telling you crystal clear, still remember this, translucent clear plastic bag. To this day I can smell the plastic smell. I can hear the bag crinkle as the lady behind the counter is carrying it. I was dizzy with excitement as she or my mom or could have been a would be child abductor handed it to me. It didn't matter. I didn't care. I just wanted that helmet. My helmet. I pulled it out of the bag and I swear I heard the angels in heaven hit high notes in unison. The white, blue center stripe. That blue, white, blue stardecow on each side. White foam padding inside the Rawlings logo on a ribbed single point chin strap with the adjustable buckles and a snap on each side. It was no lie. The single most beautiful thing I'd ever laid my seven year old eyes on with maybe the lone exception of Aaron Gray legendary space babe of my favorite television show Buck Rogers. You know something Buck Rogers. I'll be there. But other than Aaron hands down most gorgeous. Once I got it, I swear I wore it for weeks at a time. But I didn't want to scratch it. I wanted it to stay glossy and pristine. So I would only wear it in the house, which meant I pretty much always wore it in the house. If I was in the house, I had that. I would run around the living room tucking my nerve football tight in my arm crease just like Tony Dorsett. And then I swear to goodness run full speed, spearing head first, leading with the crown of the helmet into the back of our green velour couch. No lie. It is a miracle. I didn't break my neck. But seriously back to the game. I'll tell you the words that fit the way I remember it. You see how it compares to yours. If you know what I'm talking about or even reality either way, with less than a minute to play when the Cowboys I'm sure are going to win some guy by the name of Joe Montana was nearly sacked at least three or four times by like the entire Cowboys D line, all the starters, all the subs, like 15 dudes who are somehow in on the same play. Somehow Montana gets away and heaves this dying duck absolute prayer of a pass vaguely in the vicinity of the back corner of the stadium. Somehow even more miraculously, this big lumbering white dude with an 87 jersey Dwight Clark comes out of nowhere and jumps about seven feet high to high point Montana's pass, plucking it out of the sky and then dragging two toenails in bounds all before nearby number 24, Everson walls can intercept the pass and save the day for the good guys. 49ers touchdown. Extra point. 28 27 ball game. The Wikipedia entry says that the play happened with 58 seconds left in the game and there were still 55 seconds left to play when the Cowboys got the ball back. I didn't remember it, but they actually drove to within 10 or 15 yards of what could have been a game winning field goal before white was sacked and fumbled in the process. Jim Stuckey recovered the ball for the riders and sealed the deal. But I don't remember any of that. I recall being six years old, not quite seven. Imagine the first football game I could really remember actually watching and experiencing the emotions I'd soon associate with football for the rest of my life. But this time for the first time ever, those highest of highs when your team is about to win the lowest of lows when that gets snatched away in an instant, the emotional extremes pivoting on the result of a single play. I went from a lation at the thought of Montana being sacked at 59 seconds to play to being inconsolable beside myself with grief moments later after that extra point sailed through. As in full meltdown, crocodile tears kicking and screaming yelling no, no, no repeatedly. It was all so very bad. So they lost. Dad's Cowboys. Now my Cowboys, they lost. The heroes in silver and blue had victory snatched from the grasp by a team I'd vaguely heard about only a few hours before, but now and forever cemented as a lifelong nemesis. The San Francisco 49ers. Many would call the play later to be known simply as the catch as a turning point. You can Google the catch. There's a Wikipedia entry on the catch and some faceless, nameless Wikipedia author would reflect quote, the catch symbolized the end of the Cowboys domination in the NFC since the conference's inception in 1970 and the beginning of the 49ers rise as an NFL dynasty in the 1980s. End quote. That's about right. That's my luck. I'd missed out on Dallas's Super Bowls and the Stalbock years. I was a cowboy fan for all of about 3.9 quarters before the San Francisco 49ers, a coach by the name of Bill Walsh and a bright young QB by the name of Joe Montana would take charge and claim the decade of the 80s for 13. Meanwhile, back in Hawaii, a highly touted offensive lineman by the name of Jesse Sapolu was in the heart of his career for the University of Hawaii Rainbow Warriors. His team, coach by Dick Tomi, had just gone 9 and 2, by far their best showing since moving to Division 1. Just two years later, Jesse himself would be selected by Walsh and the Niners in the 11th round as pick number 289 in the 1983 NFL Draft. From there, he'd go on to earn four Super Bowl rinks, all with San Francisco in 1984 and 1988 under Walsh and two more, 89 and 94 under coach George Seyford. While Jesse's tied with 31 other players in NFL history with four Super Bowl rings, only Tom Brady and Charles Haley have more, with seven and five respectively. But before all that NFL success, even before being a top tier NFL prospect, Jesse Sapolu was by his own admission just a troubled Samoan kid with five Fs in school and a preference for hanging out at the beach over going to class. But somewhere along the way, he found football and not the pretend Sears Robuck ordered replica helmet torpedoed into the back of the couch kind of football. Real football. Eventually, that kid from Hawaii would capture the attention of a bright young coach who himself grew up in Indiana and hadn't played much football. But that coach found himself on the island, trying his best to keep Hawaii's best home grown talent from being poached by bigger name programs on the mainland. And although Jesse very nearly did sign with Arizona State, an 11th hour pitch to not just himself, but his entire family made all the difference. He opted to play college ball at home. Thanks to the love and care and compassion of Coach Dick Tell Me. The rest, as they say, is history. But before it was history, it was his story. And this episode, that's exactly what we're going to hear. As it turned out, Jesse wasn't there for the catch, but he was there for plenty of other beat downs of my Cowboys for much of the 80s and even part of the 90s. If you've stuck around this long, I guess it's worth mentioning that I'm Toby Brooks. In addition to being a professor, speaker, podcaster, back in the late 90s and early 2000s, I spent three years at the University of Arizona as a graduate assistant athletic trainer. And I didn't know it at the time, but I was part of the staff for Coach Dick Tell Me's final season with the Wildcats in 2000. In a world consumed with numbers, Coach Dick Tell Me stats simply cannot and do not tell the whole story. But if you talk to the people who played for Coach Delongside him or worked with him for a time, they'll tell you. I wouldn't shape them quite like Coach Dick Tell Me. Sadly, we lost Coach Tell Me to a brief, but valiant battle with cancer in 2019. But I'm thinking about that and him a lot lately. As I've grown up as a professional, I found myself aspiring to lead well and looking deep into the leaders of my own past that I'd like to emulate. And if you're like me, Coach Tell Me is at the top of that list. Famously, Coach was frequently quoted as saying, football isn't complicated. People are. I think the same could be said for just about any line of work. It's not the job that's complex, but the leading the people share is. I have not seen many do it better than Coach. In a profession dominated by wins and losses, Dick Tell Me created a legacy that endures decades after he coached his last game. It's that legacy that I've been thinking about ever since. How'd he do it? How'd he inspire so many to follow him, to believe in him and to carry his lessons forward, not just into their careers, but into their lives? These are questions I just can't shake. So I decided to do something about it. I decided to dive deep into the stories of one of the most transformational leaders I ever got the honor and pleasure to serve. With you joining me for the journey, we've already been able to hear from some of the people who knew him best, his players, his staff, his family. And these and future episodes will explore the moments that defined him, the values he instilled in others, and the lasting impact he left on the game. We've walked with him through those early years in Indiana, his first head coaching job in Hawaii, his time at Arizona, and his return to the sidelines at San Jose State. In the years in retirement, we kept on serving and loving and mentoring, not just the sport of football, mind you, but the people of it. And in this process with you by my side, I think we will both not only get a refreshing chance to remember a legend, we'll also learn what it takes to lead and to love and to serve our people better too. You're listening to Becoming Undone. And this, this is the life, lessons and legacy of Coach Dick Tomey. Tomey Brooks Passion Project. Joining me today is a man who knows all too well the power of a great leader, especially one like Coach Tomey. Because while I was running head first in my parents' valour couch in a plastic cowboy's helmet dreaming of a game I never got to play, Jesse Sapolu was out there actually living in. Not just playing, but thriving. Not just surviving, but overcoming. You know, I longed for the game, but never got the chance. Jesse had the game within reach, but nearly lost it. Not the injury, not the talent, but the choices, circumstances, and the very real possibility that football, his ticket to something greater, could slip away before it ever really started. Jesse's story isn't just about football, though that's the backdrop. It's about perseverance, about defying the odds, and about finding a place and a coach that believed in him. From growing up in Hawaii to anchoring the offensive line for one of the greatest dynasties the NFL has ever seen, Jesse's journey is proof that sometimes the right person, at the right moment, can change everything. And for him, that person was Dick Tomey. Fortunate enough to have Jesse Sapolu here joining us. Four-time Super Bowl champion needs no introduction, but Jesse, thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. Glad to get on and talk about Coach Tomey. Yeah, this is great. And I'm looking forward to digging in. I know you were one of the first high-level recruits that he was able to land. He was relatively young in his coaching career at Hawaii. His first head coach stop, as we've kind of talked about a little bit on the show. Tell me a little bit about your upbringing and your story and how Coach Tomey came into the picture for you. You know, I was kind of a troubled kid as a sophomore. You know, my grades were really good. And then I transferred from one high school to a high school where I ended up attending my second half of my sophomore junior and senior year at Farrington High School. And there was a coach there that I had coached at Farrington High School that kind of took me under his wing. You know, because when I came, the school that I came from, I had 6F in the first semester. And the reason not because I was dumb is because I didn't go to class. You know, I had low self-esteem and caught the bus to make my parents believe that I was going to school, but I was straight to weight the key to the beach and some of my friends. And you know, when that was the story and then finding my parents got called into the office and then he realized how bad my situation was. And you know, in the San Juan culture, you know, they spank you hard. So what I promised them that if I were just trying to transfer school, I would straighten up and try to change my life. So when I went to Farrington, you know, that was the number one thing is she used to get my grades up, went to summer school. And then I played my junior year at Farrington. It's the first time I got a letter from a college was the University of Hawaii. And then I saw coach told me towards the middle of my junior season, you know, and we talk about a kid having self-esteem from the lows of the low, you know, where I had 6Fs to where now there's a man that's telling me that if I continue to straighten up and do the right things, he would love to have me at the University of Hawaii. So it's the first time I've met the Tony there and then all of a sudden because they told me came to recruit me. A lot of the other big schools came over. Yeah, such a great story. And I have to think that for you, that external validation, a Division one coach Hawaii was a relatively recent D1 edition and having someone recognize that you had potential to play beyond high school had to be great. But you were, as you mentioned, pretty quickly, you rocketed up some, some recruit boards and became a pretty hot commodity. I read that you were all but salted away as going to heaven forbid Arizona State, but a final visit by coach told me changed your mind. What was it about that visit or his recruitment and his relationship building with you that convinced you? A lot of people might have thought that, you know, these mainland programs are higher profile and you've got a better opportunity if you go there. What convinced you to stay home? The first of all, I was on a state with number two in the nation at the time. You know, people don't know. They just beat Nebraska in the bold name and they had a coach named Frank Kurs, you know, and which they named us stadium after. So he was the he was a renowned coach. Tommy was coming to Hawaii and he was such a positive force. And the way he came across on TV is that he believed in himself. But he pushed the fact that Hawaii is no longer independent. They're about to join the Western athletic conference and, you know, the Western athletic conference will want to bring in some of the schools like BYU, Colorado State. Utah was in the was in the back then. So everybody was positive towards that. But when I went to Arizona State, the reason why that visit was was really good is because there was another high profile recruit from Hawaii that went with me on that visit. And you know, we talked among each other and said, and we had fun doing that visit. And we had some local kids from Hawaii that were already at Arizona State, including his brother, a kid named Wayne Napuna. And we came back saying that we were going to go to Arizona State and the local recruiter, you know, from Arizona State that had ties in Hawaii was already waiting for us in Hawaii and all the way back. In fact, there was a joke. There was a coach lump care that recruited me that was trying to was one of his schools on behalf of Coast Tommy, you know, Coast Tommy told him to go to the airport and wait for me to get off the plane. And he found me get off in a cowboy hat with a big A on it. Oh, and he told Coast Tommy, I think we've lost it, you know, and then Coast Tommy came over to the house. I think told me what's amazing about Coast Tommy is he took time to understand the culture and he understood how important culture was to the life of a palm region, especially a Samoan family. I know he spoke to there's a guy that I still see in Hawaii. He used to be the mayor of Hawaii for two terms. Mufi Hanaman, he had an older brother that was close to my dad. The Gus Hanaman that was he was the guy that kind of led the community. And at my Coast Tommy, you know, if you go to the support, we'll have you go sit on the floor. You know, it's the ultimate respect shown for Samoan family. So when Frank Kurs came to visit our house, he sat on my dad's recliner in the suit. And of course, in the Samoan culture, we go by cookies and coffee and stuff just to serve. But when Coast Tommy came in our culture, he just sat on the floor and I remember my sisters and my mom got off the couch. She dammed him up and put a silver on the couch. And that kind of stole my mother. I love this story that Jesse recalls and it's one we've heard before on this show. Hawaii at the time and later Arizona and even later still San Jose state were never known for being places that had top level resources relative to the other schools and their conferences. And as a result, none were known for consistently leading anyone's recruiting ranking boards, signing countless four and five star prospects. But that doesn't mean Coach Tommy was a poor recruiter. Quite the opposite, in fact. Jesse was one of the most highly touted local products coming out of Farrington High School in Honolulu. And as tempted as he was to sign within number two ranked Arizona state, it's a last minute sales pitch by head coach Dick Tommy that sways him to stay home. Not only was Coach Tommy the first head coach to recruit Jesse, it was the way he recruited him. He recruited the family. Ohana wasn't just a marketing ploy for Coach. It was a natural fit with his personality and his belief in coaching players with his whole heart. Unlike other coaches and suits and ties, Coach came in a loha shirt frequently in flip flops. He didn't make the mistake of sitting down in Jesse's dad's chair. He quickly learned the culture and in his efforts to be respectful of the Samoan culture, humbled himself and sat on the floor. It didn't go unnoticed. At the time, Jesse was around 18 years old. Coach Tommy just around 40, but trying to land his first big recruit since taking the reins of the Hawaii program just a few months earlier. Still learning the place and the job and the culture. I absolutely love that one of his first acts is to talk to locals about ways in which he can show respect to local athletes and their families. You probably wouldn't have guessed it, but as it turns out, Coach s Indiana born humility and family first personality meshes perfectly. It s a natural fit for the island s heavy Polynesian background. And the thing I love most and the lesson I take from it is he didn't just go there with the goal of trying to learn it so that he could manipulate people into doing what he wanted them to do. No, he did it so he could serve those under his charge better and love them harder. It was an example that made a deep impact on Jesse and his family, ultimately swaying his decision. It s not that Frank Kush was a bad man. They loved him too. But what Coach Tommy did was just connect the culture with how he was going to quote me if he was going to be the guy that was going to take care of me for the next four or five years. It was pretty much over. And because in fact, I already called the recruiter from Arizona State that was there getting ready to sign the both of us the next day that I was ready to sign with Arizona State. And Coach Tommy came the night before and I thought I s just as we were talking about coming to Arizona, visiting me in Tempe, everything. And then Coach Tommy turned the whole thing around that one night. And I remember him saying recruiting is never over until it s over. If you call a great recruiter because you never give up. And I m glad that I got to play under him and things worked out. Yeah. I think maybe I did coach a little bit of a disservice in the first episode because he s not renowned as a fantastic recruiter. If you look at five stars versus four stars versus three stars, he didn t routinely land a recruiting class that was ranked as high as the USC s or later in the career, Oregon of the world. But he recruited his kind of player, the blue collar, the family. And I saw that early in his career. I ve seen it at least at Hawaii. I definitely saw it at Arizona. You re 18 years old though at this time. What are your wildest dreams? Are you thinking if I go to Hawaii instead of ASU, am I going to be able to play in the NFL? Are you just thinking very next step college football? No question. I thought, like I said, I think Arizona was the biggest. I thought if I go to Arizona State, I m going to play in big bowl games and playing in big bowl games. And that s just an 18-year-old dreamer. And if I play in big bowl games and if yall is right behind me, I was confident in my ability. But it was just to see the tears in my mom s eyes that I knew she wanted me deep in her heart to stay. That s why I made my decision. And the fact that Coach told me, told her that he would take care of me, that he would create that family atmosphere. She wasn t sure what kind of atmosphere I was going to be in Arizona. To us, back then going past California was a big deal for kids. Right. And every game s a plane right away and hours and hours. You obviously were immersed in that culture your whole life. It s the only thing you had known at that point. But Coach told me, is this little white dude from Indiana. He s not Samoan, clearly. But I love this idea of he got there and he didn t put on air. He immersed himself in that. He learned what to do, what not to do. How do you think he was able to embrace that culture in Hawaii? And I saw it later in his career as well. But how did he incorporate that into what you all did in building a culture for the football program at UH? Well, I think that the fact that she put forth the effort, you know, to be the, you know, games in Hawaii start that eight o'clock in the morning. The NFL games, right? So what I would do is I would go to Sunday s school for a little bit. And it was a routine that I did. And then when church started, I sat back to our house because my dad was a minister and watched the game. My dad wouldn t know that I was missing because once church starts, you know, there s a lot of people, right? So I would think back and watch NFL games and not go to church after Sunday s school. So I m sitting there watching the game. All of a sudden I hear my sister calling my name. Look, you know, Justin. He was like, What the heck is she doing looking for me? Not knowing that. Coach Tomi was attending church on my dad s file, you know. And then when he saw Coach Tomi, he looked over to the choir where I usually sit. I was nowhere to be found. So he motioned to my mom, to where my sister come up. And now my sister s looking for me. And she goes, What are you doing? Coach Tomi s at church. I m like, Oh, gosh, you know. And so Coach Tomi attended church. And Coach Tomi still jokes about that because the church is conducted in the Samoan dialect. So you know, he s sitting there for an hour and a half not understanding what s going on already. Coach Tomi s standing there and my sister came at some point and she s quote, You know, you don t have to stay. They re going through the financial report now. He was just being respectful. He s trying to be respectful. He s saying, Here s these hounding guys sitting there having no idea what s going on. But it s that effort. You know, if I was in his position, if I was a coach and I go into a church with a foreign language that I have no idea what s going on, you know, I would have reservations going in because I m not as secure in that situation as Coach Tomi was. But he was there to establish himself with the community and he did. You know, what s funny about it, Coach Tomi is that four guys from my high school in that window of five years, four guys went on to the NFL to play significantly. You know, not just playing for one or two years. Right. Tremendous. The Noga brothers knew Faola, you know, he thought it was a running back. Yeah. Me. Yeah. It was an exciting time for Hawaii football. The move to the WAC, Aloha Stadium is brand new. 50,000 seats. I don t know exactly when the Pro Bowl started coming there, but definitely football in Hawaii became a destination. Aloha Bowl, Oahu Bowl. I mean, there were a lot of things that started during Coach Tomi s tenure there. I don t know if you remember, but the Hula Bowl, just right next to the senior bowl as far as popularity, the Hula Bowl was. When I played in the Hula Bowl, we had John L. Wade, Dan Marino. I played in that bowl. In fact, I was talking to Gary Kubriak, because he was one of our quarterbacks on my Hula Bowl team. When Coach Tomi came and Hawaii went to Division I and became part of a conference, they went five and six in Coach Tomi s first year. But we re hoping they went two games. Although they won five games, there were about three games that they really had a legitimate chance of winning it. Then the next year was my senior year, and we went six and five. Then the next year, we went eight and three. There was a two-year period, I think it was between my sophomore and junior year. We went eight and three in my sophomore year. We went nine and two in my junior year. We were on a one-yard line. Going there, we ran out of time. Drupal 10-1. That was the first time ever in the University of Hawaii was ranked in the top 20. We were, I think, 17th in the UPI, 18th on the AP, or something like that. Totally in those days, there was not a lot of ranking bodies. There was just two. He made it. If you made it, you really deserved to make it. There was no ESPN poll. That was a highlight too when Coach Tomi came. We started playing on national TV. I played in two national TV games. The University of Hawaii always played on Saturday nights, but when Coach Tomi came, we kicked off the ball at one o'clock in the afternoon because of the east coast time. Those are all the problems that he made as a coach. I see parallels between his career at Hawaii and then what happened at Arizona as well. For a coach to have the kind of lasting impact he had in people's lives, he never won a national championship. He tied for the Pac-10 title at the time in 93. It was actually a three-way tie, but no titles at UH. In the book, I had Lance Tominaga on for episode one. There's like some palpable regret. It's not being able to quite get over the hill with BYU, seem to be the thorn in the side for the longest time for UH. What do you think it was about him being so close to that edge, but not quite getting there that still led people? He's beloved. Arizona realized, I think, after the fact, after he left, winning eight or nine games is better than winning two or three. There were certainly, I think, some parallels where maybe he didn't quite beat BYU or for Arizona, maybe it was UCLA or USC, but he was still immensely successful, just not necessarily in the record book, but still successful in the record book. He came and took those programs and left it in way better shape than what he found. That's the legacy of Coach Tominaga. He just made relievers out of schools. I think Coach Tominaga was a great defense of mine. The teams that I played on under him are hard-nosed type of teams. I think the reason why we couldn't get past BYU is we didn't have quite the office to overcome BYU. Because some of those offices at BYU, you got to remember, in those days, BYU had a Heisman trophy winner. He had a Super Bowl winner or winning quarterback. Jim McMahon. I spoke with Coach Whittingham because me and him went at it. He was a middle linebacker for BYU. No question we had some great defensive teams, which kind of mirror what you said in Arizona because when I was in the NFL and I heard about the Deserts Forum, I was like, well, that's Coach Tominaga. I just, and the fact that when I went over to the Miners and I played on an innovative offense under Coach Bill Walsh, it crossed my mind, like, man, who did some of this stuff in Hawaii? We killed everybody because we had a pretty good defense. Yeah, sure. So I think that's the reason Coach told me, you know, coach some tough teams. But when we played against a team that was so talented offensively and had a wide open offensive approach, they got us. And, you know, not they blew us out, but they got us like, the game we played against BYU when we were 7-0, they fumbled into the end zone, they recovered it for their mid-tag. Yeah. So it was a defensive battle at the end of the day. But because I played in some of the best offensive teams put together with the Miners, I think back and I'm like, man, who can rest his offense with the Dichons, the Coach Tominaga, we blow everybody. Right. Right. Well, he was known as being fiercely loyal to his players. Is there a specific memory of that you have where he went to bat for either you or a teammate that really showed that aspect of his character? Well, Coach Tominaga wasn't afraid to play walk-ons that put up the effort. You know, some of those teams we had some walk-ons that make significant difference on our team. And part of that was because Coach Tominaga loved those type of players, the overachievers, you know, maybe guys that worked hard but didn't get the scholarship because they didn't run the 40 and 4 or 6. But the effort, sometimes you can run a 40 and 4-8 and go out there and play like you run a 4-7 out of effort. And Coach Tominaga loved those type of players. And what brought our team together is because we knew as, you know, I was a highly recruited guy, I knew that Coach Tominaga loved everybody. He just didn't love me because I'm just as the bone, that was his number one recruit. He loved Larry Gohuss, you know, Doug Kyle, hard-nosed guys that came to Hawaii to play just because they didn't want to give a full ball and ended up becoming a significant part of our success. And that forms a family when nobody feels like anybody's getting, you know, preferential treatment, which is a little bit different than when I came to the NFL. I realize he is a different culture there, you know. But what Coach Tominaga was able to build in Hawaii was a family-oriented team. And he believed in players that worked hard and players that put the team first. That's right. First, almost over any individual. So. 100%. Yeah. Looking back, how do you think your decision, that last minute change of heart to stay home, change the path of your life? I think it worked out well for me from the standpoint. Now, here's the thing. I had to earn everything that I earned in the NFL because I came in as a 11th round draft choice, winning for me to crack the starting lineup. I had to really outdo a lot of people before the 49ers got to me to go in the game and started playing. But I think the advantage is that I became a significant part of the 49ers. That's the West Coast team. We won a lot of Super Bowls. And the fact that I stayed home and played for a hard-nosed coach that brought the community together to believe that Hawaii's one program, you know, made it, made my life the way it is now. You know, we, I just got interviewed the other day and people say, why are the 49ers Hawaii's favorite team? I'm like, wow, because I stayed home when I had a chance to go off elsewhere and people always remember that, you know, the business people always remember that. Part of that is the fact that Coach Toby made people understand that, hey, you know, Jesse had a chance to go anywhere, but he sacrificed to stay home. And you guys need to appreciate that, you know, and I appreciate him for that. And I think that's the point that I think I'm going to be able to get out of doubt. In your view, what would you say is Coach Tommy's lasting impact on the game of football, Hawaii football in particular, and on the players that he coached? I think what Coach Tommy means to me is Coach Tommy brings people together. You know, you remember I talked about the walk on guys and the top scouts, you guys, I heard that I wasn't surprised when I heard that he was the first one to start these coaching meetings in the offseason. You know, he had a golf tournament where all the coaches come together to share ideas and get to know one another. That's what Coach told me, you know, but also Coach told me taught me to not be like when I when I came to the Niners, man, when when there were people that tap down and practice when I'm thinking, man, we'll just get started. And that hard nose, that hard nose approach by Coach Tommy, he he loved you for man. If you didn't do the right thing, you're like, you know, a thumb or a we still talk about it today with some of the guys. Moments when Coach told me got mad and he just called you out in the front of everybody. You know, I don't matter who you are. But for me, that's really what made me survive the tough games that I played in, even with the 49ers, like I said, they were when practice gets hard, man, those guys are tapped out. And I knew why they tapped out because they didn't practice very hard. You know, the way at least the way we practice at at Hawaii in the humidity. So the mental toughness, you know, it's funny because I I still carry myself from that hard nose approach of Coach Tommy. And, you know, Coach Tommy came to remind me for a year. Yeah. After the Jose, right. And then I just I just retired. I mean, while I was retired, but I was still looking for the team, you know, and Coach told me was like, he was an advisor, I think, coach. Yeah. And we sat in Seattle after we lost, you know, we weren't very good at the time. But and and he said something. And I said, well, coach, you know, that's not good enough. You know, it's almost like I'm reminding him on how his standard that he raised me under. And I was aware of what I just said. And I'm thinking, wow, you know, I've come a long ways. Reminding Coach, so we to hold these guys accountable for not winning football. Just that grittiness, that toughness, a lot of like rock fights, like seven to six games, you know, where just every now and matters, no finesse. It's all just smashed mouth football. Exactly. And how do you beat us is because they had some finesse to. You know, they they open up, they they spread out the field a little bit. But you're right, man. I mean, but that the one thing I did bring from Hawaii with me, man, might have me and my hard nose inside zone blocking was as good as anybody deniers that part of that is like you said, they knew what was coming, but we want to do it. Everyone's. Well, just he sadly, we lost coach, Tommy, in 2019, a brief bout with cancer. You spoke at an event to honor him. If you had a chance to sit down and coach today and say a word to him, what would you say? Oh, thank you. Thank you for challenging me at a pivotal time of my life that was showing corn and developing my life because I had three sons and I raised them not as hard. No, like coach told me, raised me and not as hard. No, just my parents raised me because obviously time changed. But but but I still raise them in the demanding way or the expectations of what they need to do. You know, and not settle for anything less, meaning the only difference between what coach told me did to me and what I did to my sons is I didn't scream at my sons and cast them out for but you know, I'm very thankful of that because honestly, told me I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that. It's true, and that's the honest truth. You know, I think I'm afraid that the kids are today can't handle this stuff. But for me, as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't be worried about today without there. That that challenge in North Africa. Yeah, completely get that one of the quotes I heard him say repeatedly, not just to players, but to his staff was you're either coaching it or you're allowing it to happen. And that's how a coach gets real. Like if you let something slide, if like you said, if if one of your teammates taps out and no one says anything, then the message sent is we quit. We are willing to shut it down before we have to. But if someone gets in their face, you really have to love somebody to call them out. And that's tough. And I don't agree with the way things are now, you know, but you know, social media has changed a lot of things through, you know, this. It's almost like we're not allowed to be that hard. But I just wish we could go back through the foundation of how it was because, you know, I mean, it's it's it's not for everybody, but for the majority of us. It's necessary, you know, yeah. And and I think Coach Toby, you know, when Coach told me after he gets through challenging you and calling you out and telling you the truth in their face, it the way he approaches you to let you know the day he did it because he loved you. Yeah. Just makes it all worthwhile. You know, Well, Jesse, I can't thank you enough. I am so thankful for your time. For sharing your heart. I know Coach Tommy means a lot to a lot of people. And I really appreciate getting your insights on on the man, especially early in his career. Well, thank you. Thank you, Coach. Peace. Hi, everybody. I'm Justice the Bulb. South Cisco 49ers University of Hawaii. And I am on that. Jesse's journey is one of resilience, redemption and relentless growth. He didn't just find his way in football. He found his way in life. And at a crucial moment when his path could have veered in an entirely different direction, it was coach Dick tell me who upset him straight. Not by promising easy success or guaranteed stardom, but by showing up, by understanding what mattered and by making Jesse believe that he was worth investing in. You know, I think that's what made coach different. He didn't recruit players. He recruited people. He didn't just build teams. He built cultures. He understood that sometimes the best way to lead isn't to sit in the highest chair in the room, but to meet people where they were, whether that's on a living room floor and a Samoan household and the heat of grueling practice or in hard moments when a player needed to hear the truth. And because of that, players like Jesse didn't just play for him. They carried his lessons with them long after the final whistle. Although we lost coach Tommy in 2019, his legacy is alive and well. And hopefully through reference like this show, it's even spreading. It's in the men he coached, families he shaped, and the way they carry his values forward in their own lives. Just like Jesse said, without coach, he wouldn't be where he is today. It really isn't that the truest measure of a leader, not just what they accomplish, but what they inspire in others. You know, I'm thankful to Jesse for dropping in today, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undunpodcast.com backslash EP115, see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Jesse Zappolu. Coming up on the show, got some great new stories and interviews for you to check out. Join me on Thursday, March 6th, when I sit down with then assistant coach, Rip Shear, who coached me in Hawaii, and who later go on to become a head coach himself at James Madison University and the University of Memphis. He was there on that original staff that coached Tommy inherited, and later joined him in Arizona. Rip will take us inside those early Tommy years, the highs, the challenges, the moments that defined his career before the world really knew his name. Then be sure to join me for another episode you won't want to miss, when I'll have a hilarious and still hardwarming discussion with former player and later assistant coach, Dino Babers, whom South would later go on to become head coach at Eastern Illinois and Syracuse. So stick with me, we're seriously still just getting started. This and more on Becoming Undone, the life, lessons, and legacy of Dick Tilney, a Toby Brooks passion project. Becoming Undone is a nitro-hyped creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Becoming Undone Pod, and follow me at TobyJ Brooks on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Check out my link tree at linkedr.ee backslash, TobyJ Brooks. Listen, subscribe, and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, or wherever you get your podcasts. Till next time, remember, your work isn't complicated, people are, and keep getting better.