An Epic Spurs-Thunder Series, Cleveland Survives, and the Knicks' Moment Is HERE With Zach Lowe

! All right, Bill Simmons podcast live on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. We thought we'd be starting after the Cavaliers pistons game, but the pistons had other ideas and so did the Cavaliers. I wanted to mention new rewatchables coming on Monday. We did Borat. It was me and Kyle Brand. It's turned into politically incorrect comedy month on the rewatchable. So we have that. Zach Lowe is going to be Tuesday morning, Thursday morning, as we head into an absolutely awesome round three. I'm very excited. The Knicks might make the finals. Don Jinks might die hometown. Spurs and Thunder. We're going to talk about where this matchup ranks for us, but we'll start with Cavs Pistons. So wrote down great win for Cleveland and Donovan Mitchell fans and supporters. Decent win for James Harden, truthers. Great win for the Knicks because they now have home court in the Eastern Conference finals. They have one, two, five and seven. Where do you want to start with those? What truth? What truth do the James Harden truthers subscribe to? That he's one of the 40 best players of all time, that he's actually come up big in some playoff games. They just all happen to be in series that his team eventually lost. Bad luck against the Warriors a couple of times. Four conference finals. I don't know. What else would they say? I think we should start with Donovan Mitchell and getting over the hump into the conference finals. I mean, he had the stats are not overwhelming, but I thought he played awesome. And the seven assists is to me the defining stat of the game for him. I just thought he like slowed down, played with a better pace, kept his dribble alive a little bit longer on the pick and roll, looking actively for the big guys instead of like that overhead carry he does. It used to be like a once a game kind of thing. And it became like five times a game as he was searching for his own points and playing a little frazzled. And I thought he was just under control, got the big guys involved. Game seven, Jared Allen showed up as a result. Evan Mowgli played, I think, his fourth really nice game in a row. And just like we get Cleveland Knicks, which is like the road not taken for Donovan Mitchell. The road not taken for the Knicks after acquiring Jalen Brunson and flirting with pairing him with Donovan Mitchell, who allegedly always dreamed of playing for the Knicks. He's from here. His family is still all in the Northeast. His dad works for the Mets on and on. So we get like that road not taken. JB Bickerstaff doesn't get to avenge his firing from Cleveland. And, you know, like the calves paid a high price for Donovan Mitchell. Like Lowry Markinon, the gap between Mitchell and Lowry Markinon and whatever your play ring, he's shrunk dramatically since that trade and the three pigs and the two swaps. And I think now you have to look at it as you paid full freight. But here you are in the conference finals with like a Knicks team that I think is going to be the favorite. I will pick them to win the series, but they're not unbeatable. But Cleveland, Cleveland has a chance in this series to get to the finals. Yeah, I had Mitchell as the top story to nine years, 77th playoff game tonight. Never made conference finals, which becomes a weird list. When you've had a really good career and you've made some small MBAs, but you've never made it past round two. And I don't know who the most famous player on that list is, but I always take a Dominic Wilkins when I think of lists like that and all the what ifs with his career and how like if the Lakers had just taken him over James Worthy and if he'd been able to get by the Celtics once or the Pistons, anybody had this awesome career, but never even got to be in the final four. It felt like we're heading that way with Mitchell. Friday night, I just was stupefied by Friday night. I thought for sure the Cavs are going to win. I don't know what happened to them. They looked lethargic, the Pistons, they had so many turnovers in that in the Friday night game. And then today we were texting during that near the end of the first half that Cavs had two turnovers with like four minutes left in the second quarter. Honestly, that felt like part of the difference because Detroit's offense was so iffy. They really needed that energy stuff and they needed like the two on ones and the blocks and going the other way. And they just didn't get any of those today. And it's just a lethargic game all the way around. Cade wasn't good. Mitchell was the best guy on the floor. The point you made about the getting the big guys above, I almost wonder did they look at the tapes of the first six games and notice that every time they drove to the basket, the Pistons, Biggs and Thompson were just flying at those guys trying to block the shots. And like they told Mitchell, when you go to the basket, look for Al and look for Mowgli because those guys over and over again were rolling and they seemed like they were unimpeded. So it almost felt like a football strategy flip of like they keep doing this, zag this way and Mitchell bought in. Because the thing with Mitchell, it was a storyline that he was averaging what 2.9 assists to the playoffs. That's terrible. He's supposed to be the guy who makes everybody else better and he wasn't, but he did tonight. I think if they lost this game and he had another game like that, the number one takeaway, I mean, all the big takeaways would have been the big picture calf stuff that we don't have to discuss now. Like what are they going to do? Is this the team of the future? Who do they trade? Can he act? All that stuff is stable. But the biggest basketball takeaway would have been what happened to Donovan Mitchell's playmaking? Like I thought this was going to develop into a real strength of his game and it kind of had just disappeared in the playoffs. He was not making passes that were there to be made. He was not looking for them. He was just playing. I keep using the word frazzled. He looked a little sped up and just not in his normal state of mind. And tonight he was really, really under control and really good. A little black coalish before tonight. I felt like not that fun to play with would have been my take. And out of sync sometimes with Hardin. I mean, gradually starting in game three and excluding the just inexplicable egg they laid in game six, three, four, five, seven, you started to see the Cavs figure out some ways to. It wasn't pretty. It's not always artful, but to loosen up their half court offense a little bit. It was sometimes hunting mismatches for John and Mitchell. It was using Mowbly more in the pick and roll and they started to get like the Mowbly to Allen, big to big passing going on. It was finally, I thought, probably a little overdue starting streus tonight and playing Meryl Moore and just having more shooting on the floor. Meryl like probably should have let the thing with the same Meryl who came in and completely changed the game. I've been calling for it all series. I don't know why they weren't playing him more. Do you think he was, was he hurt? Like he seemed like such an obvious person to play more. He did miss the game. I thought the streus adjustment was going to come sooner. And in Kenny's defense that line, the initial starting lineup with Wade had had like a better plus minus than I had thought of in the playoffs. But it's just the offense was so clunky. I didn't like it. Wade was not bringing enough defensively to really justify it. I thought they could have reorganized their rotation a bit. But so what happens in the playoffs, man, you shrink your rotation, you got to stretch for answers. This is, you know, the calves for as ugly as it's looked at times, seven games and seven games and they're here. And they had to negotiate two of the five best defenses in the NBA this year. It's like not always going to look pretty, but they found just enough to squeak those series out. Yeah. So the big adjustment was starting macho man, Maxi Streus. I saw you. I saw that. That was fun. Macho. Yeah. Hopefully that'll keep going in the, in the next series, but other than that, it just looked like they took care of the ball and Mitchell played better. Those were, those were really, that was really, cause Friday night was, I was really surprised and stunned, but Detroit did seem like they got the read, the read during combo going. And then today it was gone again. And we'll talk about Detroit later and what Dernsworth and all that stuff, but for ugly loss for Detroit. What wild, like just a reminder that it's a little as predictable as the NBA is compared to other sports leagues in terms of who generally wins and advances game to game. It's like, wait, Cleveland won three games in a row and just got obliterated in game six in the most dispiriting way possible at home. Detroit's riding high. They're going back home. You know, they're like game seven and they get obliterated at home. It's like, it can swing in wild ways, even if it doesn't seem that way sometimes. Yeah. It's turnovers and threes basically seem to be when you have two teams that are, I think a notch below the highest level that we have going in the league right now. Who the hell knows? For Detroit, how bad was that loss for you? If I gave you a scale of one to the 2022 Mavs Suns game. That's 10. That's 10. I'll go six and a half. I mean, I think we saw in the first round that this team was, it's regular season win total probably inflated a little bit how good they really were. And all the sort of concerns we had about their viability as like a real finals championship team came to bear in the series against Orlando, which by the way, I think Orlando probably wins if Franz Wagner doesn't get hurt. And also they blew a horrendous game six of their own at home. So I think we win because we did that podcast with the scariest ceiling playoff teams and we had Detroit 11th and their fans and media got mad at us. Well, I mean, and just I'm going six and a half, maybe seven because it's a young team. It's a rising team in a lot of ways. Like again, this is a team that had it over under, I think in the high forties before the season started. And here they are going toe to toe with Donovan Mitchell and James Harden and Evan Mobley and Jared Allen in the second round. It's great season. But Jalen Duren, another invisible game Tobias Harris, Ofer from the field. He's a free agent. You've really got a tough question, tough, tough discussion to have with him. And just the center rotation completely fell apart again at the word after Jalen Duren looked reinvigorated. We were texting over the weekend, like the biggest, the biggest possible positive sign for Detroit going into game seven is maybe Jalen Duren got over whatever mental hurdle or whatever was happening to him. He did not. And then missing laps and everything around the basket. And then Isaiah Stewart for what felt like the fourth time in the series is just throwing guys like Judo throwing guys at the foul line and picking up these crazy fouls and J.B. Bigger stuff's like, dude, cool. You're the tough guy in the team. Can you play basketball? Cause if you're not going to play basketball, we're bringing in Paul Reed. Six minutes for Isaiah Stewart tonight. So I would go higher than six and a half for the pistons for three reasons. One, you have this impossible to figure out during contract thing though. I mean, I don't know. He just got outplayed by Jared Allen who plays, who makes, you know, 28, 29 million a year. Right. So you can't pay during more than that, even though I voted for him for an OMBA team. I don't know. You, we've seen this in, in, in football and we've seen it in basketball where if you overpay somebody who's not a dominant guy, that's the quickest way to screw your team up for three, four years. It's AK, the Bradley, the Bradley Bill Paradox, Paradox, Paradox, PIP, Dilemma, whatever, whatever. Bradley Bill Paradox. I just couldn't, in good conscience, pay that guy more than 33 to 34 a year. Oh, I think if you're, I think after this series, if, if you're a jail endurance agent, you, you might pretend to protest what you just said, like, oh, that might, might place a phone call to Bill Simmons being like, oh, I gotta do the thing where I protest. But secretly you're like, I would take that. Like that's like, we, I was, so. So, Dan said Daniel is 25 a year. Jalen Johnson signed for, I think we all felt like it was a little low, right? 38 years. I think five for, five for 150. So he's somewhere in there, but I wouldn't feel good about going over 30 for him after that series. I don't feel good about paying that for centers in general because I think the perimeter guys are more important unless it's Yoke at your Wemby. I will say, I thought his defense was pretty solid throughout the series. Offensively, he was exposed, is kind of not ready for the, for the playoffs at the level that the Pistons need him to be ready, which is a really high level second round against a really good team. Like you, it's got, it's high level stuff. And, you know, the perimeter, the perimeter game, like every time he takes a mid-range jumper, it's a win for the other team. And I think he'll get better at that. He's only 22. You can't repeat that enough. But like, I don't know what the market, I mean, the bulls are the team with cap space that has the obvious hole at the position, but I just don't know that anyone is blowing Jalen Dern's market away with any kind of offer sheet. Now agents, as we saw with Miles Turner are super creative of like magicing up sign and trades and crazy deals. But, you know, I, it, the center horse, Lakersy, Lakers-ish. I mean, we'll see if they have any cap space. They have this $50 million possible cap space and it depends on a lot of different things. LeBron, Rui Hachimura, how quickly they send Reeves and all that. But he would be, I mean, at the very, very high end of what the Lakers could, could go after. So that was my first thing. I have two more things for being bummed out of from the Pistons. The second is what happened to Isaiah Stewart, where I think he became a liability as the playoffs went wrong. He was one of my favorite bench guys in the league this season. And I don't know if since the fight, it never felt like he got his impact back the way it was before the fight, where it felt like he was coming in and just swinging in games and adding on to Dern. And I just thought he got worse than the playoffs to the point. It seemed like he came at it. It seemed like he was yelling at a couple of coaches and they cut away from it. But I think he's an obvious trade piece for them making 15 million a year. There's great rim protection things for him. Maybe he needs to play more. But just in general, I thought that was a guy that seemed like he was one of the better contracts in the league and just was MIA. So that's two. And then the third one is just that they punted on the trade deadline, which we talked about at the time. Their big move is Kevin Herter, who didn't play tonight. Who didn't really play our series. And I don't add an injury in fairness. But yeah, there was no universe in which Kevin Herter was going to suddenly be playing 22 minutes a game off the bench in this series. But he even he wasn't he didn't play one minute this year. He got in at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, whatever. So they kind of punted on that. And we talked about it and we said, Hey, they, you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint. They're using the same press the logic of let's try to build and we're we'll pounce when we pounce. I don't know if you have a chance to get into the final four, that means you're four wins away from the finals. I certainly think they they've had a lot of success against the Knicks and they really needed that second score, which is what we said in February. You're putting all your bricks and the you print all your eggs in the Tobias Harris basket. And he was 0 for six today. And they did not have that other score they could trust. Lavert had the one hot game in the series. You know, they'd have Jenkins would hit three every once in a while. Robinson, who did not seem healthy to me. I know he made a couple threes, but I felt like he had some back thing. I was watching him. He's walking. He looked 100% to me, but they were just missing that second, whoever it was. And I don't know if I was a Pistons fan. I'd be mad about that. Yeah. I mean, you know, I was talking about this with some people at the combine and you hear this like, well, I mean, ironically, they got they get to swap picks with the Timberwolves in the first round of this draft because they took on Mike. Conley and the initial salary dump or said they were involved in that. And it ironic, I say, because you hear a lot of people say, well, I mean, like they could have gotten in for Kobe White or I would assume newer guy like that. I mean, they could have. Is that getting them over the hump? Is it worth it? But it's definitely would have given them a better shot in this series because we like we all knew they were light on secondary creators. And I think honestly, like, I think it, it, it, Cade had to have been exhausted by the end of this series because he just has to do everything. And the calves, I think probably switched too easily against Cade. Like they gave him hard and they gave them Donovan Mitchell, they gave him Meryl, they gave him whatever matchup he wanted. They'd never really trapped him when he got those matchups. And a lot of where people were calling for that. And I understand that. And I think they could have done a little bit. I bet what they were thinking was, look, we're just going to make him dribble eight times and take a 14 footer. And yeah, it's going to be over Donovan Mitchell or Sam Merrill, but we're not giving him the easy stuff and the easy passes. We're just going to wear his ass out. And like what he was doing, what is he's, he, no one in the league is carrying a bigger load. I don't think then Cade cutting him in the playoffs. Two MVP votes from people today for him. First place, first place. First place MVP votes. Yeah. So I have a lot of Nick's fans in my life. I know you have even more. And they've been asking me for two weeks, who, who do I want to play? Do you want to play the Cavs or the Pistons? And my answer, at least for the last week is you're going to be the other team. It doesn't matter. But I would rather play the Pistons because I, the Cavs still have this ceiling thing that they, the potential of what they are is still more dangerous than what the Pistons are to me, which is a team that just has too much trouble scoring in the Thompson piece of it. Thompson who, you know, steals and blocks some offensive rebounds, three incredible defensive plays a game. Like clearly somebody who can be one of your best five guys on the floor and be really impactful. But if you don't have enough scoring and especially this was a Pistons team, if they fell behind 15, it felt like 50, you know. And I just feel like if I'm the next, I would have much rather played that team because I'm better than many way I could just outscore them. Cleveland, who knows with the two bigs. You mentioned Mowgli earlier. The last, the three of the last four games, I thought he was really, really, really good. Like as, as much as I've enjoyed watching him play, just total package, like defending the rim, some good passing was aggressive, wasn't afraid to shoot his three. Did you feel like he went up a tiny notch or am I crazy? No, I mean, look, the scoring numbers are, I don't think he cracked 20 unless he did tonight. I haven't checked the final box score in any of those games. I just thought he played really solid all around basketball. And I think the series started to turn when the Cavs had him more involved in the pick and roll and like used him as a passer more and used him as a hub more. And I think like that's not going to be sexy statistically, but I thought he made all the right plays and it got him just, it got the ball moving a little bit. And for a team that was like 29 assists tonight, they've been dead last in assists rate in the playoffs for most of the playoffs. It just got the ball moving a little bit more and it invigorated him. Like there was a moment, I think it was in game four where he dunked on Isaiah Stewart, like dunked on him hard. And I'm like, where is this every other game? Like why is this a rare thing? Like this level of nastiness and aggression and he played that way. The rest of the series, I kind of agree with you. The Pistons swept the Knicks in the regular season. They blew them out, if not all three times and at least two out of the three, there are guys missing on both sides in most of the games. But they, their physicality bothered the Knicks. They just beat the crap out of the Knicks. The Knicks were not ready for how physical Detroit played. Obviously in the playoffs, your state of readiness and your willingness to engage and that kind of stuff is going to be way higher. The Cavs, like you love the trick or treat analogy for players. The Cavs have a little bit of that in them where they for a quarter will find this groove where the hardened Mitchell thing is more complimentary than it is. Like they amplify each other a little bit more than they do usually. The Bigs are rolling, Streusel, Merrill are making shots. You're like, oh my God, this team is awesome. Defending the rim. Yeah. And then the next two quarters, it'll just be a little bit sluggish. So they do have that kind of like, oh, if that team pops a little bit more than off, than not, then yeah, they have a chance. They've also really, I think Merrill, Sam Merrill has really emerged as a possible like MSG playoff villain. I can see him going in and being unafraid and hitting shots. Shrooder, who was plus 12 today, was at least two turnovers. Shrooder was a turnover machine in the last couple of games. So the point that he almost seemed like unplayable in game six. Like I was surprised they kept him out there. But you know, with Macho Man, Maxi Streus, Hardim, Mowgli, Allen, Mitchell and Merrill, at least know I have six guys and then Wade's like a six and a half. At least he has some size. They'll be able to land some punches on the next. But if I'm the next, this is, I mean, this is easily, easily their best chance to make the finals since 1994, I think. It's not, it's not close. They're way better than, they were way better than either of his teams. What do you think the line is for the series? I'm going to Fandor right now. Before I look, I'm going to say Nix minus 300. I was going to say 250 or 230 or something like that. So, okay. The answer is minus 240. Okay. Plus 190 for the Cavs. You win that one. I win. That's why you're Mr. gambling. And I win. I win. Me and house had nine different bets going on this game tonight. That's what I do. And I won by prices, right? Rules, which I respect in my house. Yeah, he did. Like, but my wife does not respect prices. Right. Well, she says that's stupid. It should just be who's ever closest. I respect the institution that is the prices. Right. I like prices. Rights rules as well. Brunson minus 170 for final for conference MVP. Mitchell's three to one towns plus nine 50 hard and 20 to one. Oh, geez. 22 to one. And then Evan Mowley sitting there at 33 to one. Right. Not against it. Got to get, get my app. Get my app up. Not against that one. Cause I, in my opinion, Mowley will be the, uh, that's the Cavs guy to watch in a series like this. Yeah. He's awesome. That's a, that's a differentiator for them. I'm going to dig in a little bit tomorrow. Obviously it's a quick turnaround game. One is Tuesday in New York. Hopefully be there. Um, and, uh, but I, I'll dig in on the matchups a little bit, but the Knicks, Ogn and OB practiced and said he's feeling much better. And this does not like the hamstring injury from two years ago. That's a huge thing. I just think they're better. I think they're a better team. They, they, they, I think we're two and one or three and one against the Cavs this year. Now I will say the last time they played, I've said this over and over again. I think the Cavs figured out a little bit something on who should match up with who and how all that should work defensively and, and gave the Knicks a little bit of trouble. And I think they, they discovered a little bit of, of that kind of stuff, but the Knicks are just better. And like to your point, I'm surrounded by Knicks fans. They are absolutely giddy. And I'm like, you should be giddy. This is by far the best chance. I like, I'm, I had never thought I would ever have a hometown finals as long as I would be doing this. So finals where I didn't have to travel for half of it. I just never even deemed it possible. I just never, which of these teams is going to suddenly be competent enough to actually win three playoff rounds. This is by far the most likely it's ever been to the point that if the Knicks don't win this next series, I think it's going to be absolutely crushing for their fan base and that they're, they're a whole organization. I don't know how crushing it will be because they had the will to live for the rest of their lives crushed out of them by the Halliburton shot and that Pacers come back. So they're, they're already dead inside. I can't believe you, you have to mention that. Like they're, they're dead inside. They have, they have no emotion left. How about the Paul Reed shot, by the way, can we just from a, from, from game six, it hung on there. It was like a golf shot that just hung on the lip for five seconds. It was like a Tiger Woods where he's doing the fist pump after we're going to take a break, a couple more storylines for that calves, Knicks series in one second, one second. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandall. The conference finals finally is here. We are down to four teams. Take, you know, to go down, take your shot with Fandall, get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, Fandall, the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason, build the same game, Parley for a shot at a better payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off or just follow me and my picks. 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So one thing I was thinking about with the Knicks and the Cavs and it's off of Minnesota falling short in their series about these little windows that teams have. The can't get over the hump teams. The teams that they win a few playoff series, they might even make a conference finals. They have like a three or four year window and they just can't make the finals, right? And I think the most my favorite example of this team ever was the Mark Price Cavaliers that with Doherty and Nance and all those dudes, I thought those were really, really good teams. It's really unfair that they never made a finals. They had some bad injury luck. You know, they obviously cross pass with Michael Jordan at the worst possible times and the Pistons and then price got hurt. But I just thought that was a really good team. You look back and you're like, oh, that was an error, but they never got over the hump. And I think the Knicks and the Cavs are like that right now where the Cavs, they've had this Mitchell little mini era here where they were able to get lucky with the Mowgli being there and being able to draft him. And then the Jarrod Allen trade, you're basically getting him for nothing. And then, you know, Garland initially turned him in hard. But this is their window right now, I feel like. And then the Knicks same thing where they went all in with the bridges. They were able to dump Randall at the perfect time. We're going to talk about him later. They get towns. That trade turned out really well. And this is the window right now for them. And this is why when I think about this series, like, for one of these teams, whoever loses this, I don't think it'll be a, well, we made the conference finals. I think this is like, this was our fucking chance to make the finals. So there's real stakes here that not that there isn't always stakes for the conference finals, but I feel like this is like a four year round. It's like a four year road to this series. Yeah. I mean, look, if you're right, and one of these teams comes out feeling disappointed to the point where they view change as necessary. Like, certainly the Bucks are hoping for just maximum disappointment around the top, whatever teams in the league, including these two teams. And it is like, I talked about this last week, like imagine if Cleveland comes back and wins the series and they did, like, what does that mean for Hardin's future with the team? It seems to solidify. Right. Does it solidify Mitchell's? But like, you're right, if they just get rolled, if one of these teams, it's different if you go to seven and it's just like both teams played really, really well. It's a heroics awesome series. Like just in there, like, you know, it's a tip your cap kind of series. But if it's four one and we get exposed on the glass, like Mitchell Robinson four years ago exposed us on the glass or four one and Kat has another existential crisis week. Like the Kat thing goes back this way where he's fouling and like all of a sudden you just can't recapture whatever it is you had against Philadelphia and at the end of the Atlanta series. Like, you're right, there could be, there could be certainly disappointment to the point of like, all right, we got to pivot. I mean, we'll see how it goes, I guess. The problem with some of this stuff, I remember you talking about this when Dame was leaving Portland about like, they made the 2019 Western finals. That's a win. They were one of the four, you know, teams left. But the whole Dame era in Portland, I don't look at it as like, oh man, they were rolling, you know, we go back and we, we look at that Western finals. It's like, I was a little fluky. The Houston and Golden State was really the Western finals that year. But that was an era. And I was thinking about the get over the hump teams. The Gritt and grind Grizzlies is a great one. Made the finals. I mean, made the conference. Made the conference finals, right? They put some series together. They had some upsets was the distinct era. They could never get over the hump. Lob City Quippers, Paul George Pacers, your favorite, the coach, Bud Hawks, Blazers. The Heart and Rockets is probably the most successful example of just a ton of success, but never actually made the finals. The Celtics pre COVID Celtics, basically 16 to 20, where they made the Eastern finals. I think four to five times that whole era in the Eastern Conference. Yeah, it should just be, it was just Cleveland and a bunch of whatever. Yeah. So and Nick's and Cavs now, and then, and then the wolves. And we'll talk, we'll talk about the wolves later because I want to do what do you do. But sometimes like being one of the final four teams is okay. I think we just overreact to where it's like, we didn't win the title. What do we do? And it's like, I don't know, man, there's 30 teams in this league. There's a lot of good players. Like if I'm the Cavs, I'm like, all right, this was pretty good. We were down two, oh, in the second round, we made it. Like maybe let's cool the jets on, on all the panic stuff. Now, if they had lost tonight, I would have had five trades for you. I totally agree. Making the conference finals is really hard and there's only four teams left and you're one of them and you've learned something about yourself. You're going to be better off for it the next year when you're in the playoffs. And you know, you were doing the hump thing. Like I was like, where's the hump? Cause a lot of these teams you were mentioning made the conference finals, but not the finals. And I guess that is the finals. I mean, that's like, and again, like, what are you going to tear down a conference finals team? Cause now you have decisions to make and the salary cap forces you to make decisions and all that kind of stuff. But it's, it's hard to get that far in the playoffs. And, you know, I mean, the West is just a completely different animal. Like Minnesota loses to San Antonio in the second round of the playoffs. I'm supposed to panic about now there are things to panic about. Like Julius Randall disappearing is a thing to panic about. Rudy go bear kind of sneakily disappeared in the last two or three games. Well, I mean, easy. That was a catastrophe. Okay. I was trying to be nice for Rudy. Cause everyone just, it's just, he's just a punching bag at the NBA. No, I know it's a punching bag, but I'm trying to be nice. I'm trying to be nice. You're being bullied. He's been bullied too long. I'm trying to be nice to him. Putting that aside, if I'm Minnesota, I'm really scared that one of the people I have to go through in my conference, Victor Rambinyama, just completely annihilated by center to the point to do with that, to the point. And Stan was making it on the broadcast that they were, they, and I had talked about it last week too on my pod. They were rejiggering their rotations. The wolves were to have Rudy in the game only when Wemby was not in the game. Not good or a limit. Yeah. So look, but it's hard to make the conference finals. The calves are pretty young and yeah, I don't know. There was something else I was going to say and I forgot, but it's, it's, it's, it's hard to make the conference finals with the trade. So we talk about, they're obviously not panicked. They're young during 22 Kates in his mid twenties. There's a trade for a second score. Let's, let's try to get Kate some help. No question. There's probably a, there's probably a Kauai Leonard conversation. There's probably a, we don't have enough to get Jaylen Brown conversation, but let's at least kick the tires. There's a, Hey, do we make our version of the Desmond Bain, um, Mckell Bridges trade for Trey Murphy and see if New Orleans is interested in that. But I think it's somebody like that. I think it's, I think they have to find a reliable second score that is not to bias Harris. Not that to bias had a good season. Um, and I actually really like the way he played the regular season, but the, the playoffs speak for itself. The question that you're going to have to face is what's the salary that you're throwing in? I mean, you can throw in all your picks, I guess, and that's pretty valuable. Throw in all your picks, all your swaps, they got everything, but I got to get up to a number, right? Like if I'm the names you're mentioning, I got, I got to get up to even trade Murphy, but big number. They have Robinson who's 16 a year, the next two, but he's only 2 million guaranteed this year. So they can get out of that. Um, they can, I think they could trade Stuart pretty easily. And I think that's somebody that just throw, but just throw Jaylen, you just threw Jaylen Brown's name in there. The Boston Celtics are not trading finals MVP, Jaylen Brown for Isaiah Stewart, Duncan Robinson, and a bunch of Detroit first round picks. Like that's, you're not getting a guy like that. They're not. And the problem is they're not getting Kawai or trade Murphy for what they have to trade anyway. I think I don't, I don't, I, unless Thompson is involved in some sort of capacity. They're not doing that. And that's the other thing they have to figure out. Do they, do they extend Thompson? Do they give him, you know, do they jump the gun on the RFA season and, and take it out basically? I mean, look, we could get a lot of pretty unc, I mean, we had the four guys who just hung in restricted free agency forever last year because there just, there was nothing out there for them. We've seen the Rockets already play pretty tough with some of their internal free agents and just say, we're not giving you the max. How about this? And if you don't take it, we'll just be happily negotiating against you in restricted free agency. Yeah. And I think more teams should do that. I mean, I hate restricted free agency. It sucks for the players, but it's a rule. And I don't think teams have adequately taken advantage of it. And I think it's really like, if you can chip eight to 10 million a year off some of these contracts, again, it sucks for the players, but it's, it's a weapon that you're, you have collectively bargain to have. And I like a Sarkomson. It also really hurts the flexibility of being able to fix your roster. Once you do that extension, you're, you're poison pills. These are just the rules. I have to live in the unit. I can think about other rules, but these are the rules that it takes now. And under those rules, like I'm not extending a Sarkomson now, unless he's willing to take a pretty big discount. And because if I'm, and if I'm a Sarkomson's agent, I'd say like, oh, no, I want the max. It's 25%. And like, then we're not negotiating. Then we'll go to, we'll take it to restricted free agency. If, if a Sarkomson's agent asked that or said that, I would cut a 45 minute video of him missing eight footers and be like, we're not giving you the max. And here's our 45 minute answer on that. Well, I think that would be. Can he make an eight footer? I think that would make an eight footer. I don't know if that would go over well. I think that would be perceived as rude. What, what, what were the backyard basketball one on one games between the Thompson twins? Like ferocious. I wouldn't want to be a part of those games. Just incredible. Def, is that why they both can't shoot? Because the other one was so great defensively, they never figured out how to make an open shot. Just four hour games. And people like, we got to eat dinner. I know it's two, two to 11, but we get her is ready. It's getting cold. Can we just call it a three? It's like two cheetahs just fighting, unable to gain up or ground on each other. I'm going to just quickly give you my, I had some Cleveland content in case they lost about what would happen. I was really excited about some of this. I wrote down in all caps, LeBron is looming. I think we can close the door now for the LeBron comes back to Cleveland. Hey guys, I'm a former champ. I'm here to help. What if they lose? What if they get swept? I don't think they would. What if it's four, one? And it's just, it ends like with a whimper really just closing it or just closing it. What's the golf like in Cleveland? Because I think that's going to be the number one determiner for him. Probably not great for a large percentage of the year. I think he has stay in California. Yeah. I had some Mitchell trades though. Okay. Let's say how about this? If Mitchell gets swept, if they, if the calves get swept, I'm just trying to figure out what his value is fourth picture cargo is Chicago's not doing that. Right. I would, I would think not new GM, new, new lease on life. Let's get it. Let's get a cornerstone. You guys, young guy, but Brooklyn six pick, which I think is for sale. They were the, they were the first team that came to my mind when you just started six pick triary and a future first call it in Sacramento, seventh pick with Levine. And I get another Sacramento pick and then, and then Atlanta eighth pick with Dyson Daniels, something there. He'd be very good on Atlanta. I mean, he'd be very good anywhere, but there would have been a really interesting discussion to be had of Donovan Mitchell of almost 30 eligible to sign just a, one of these extensions. That's just going to be a just gigantic amount of money. If it's a max extension going into his mid thirties with a playoff record that I think, by the way, has been a little bit underrated as he's come under some scrutiny in this series. I think he's been pretty goddamn good in the playoffs. And there's been a couple of series, the last two years for the calves where he felt like the only one, he was like the bus driver and just, just, just the only one that was really up for a fight. Orlando game seven was a good one too. And he was great tonight. And, and, but there still would have been interesting discussion, like, you know, small guard 30 plus 30 into 33, 34, 35 on Pam 70 million. And he's never made the conference finals in that discussion is at least four stalled for now. The bigger issue for me with that kind of money is do you make anyone better, which he was not doing during the playoffs, but he did tonight. I did get, uh, got an email earlier today from Alex Taylor. This was before we knew the result who said being a calves fan is a lot like having an elderly relative you're taking care of. I always have to watch and I'm rooting for them, but I kind of can't wait for this shit to be over with. That's a dark email. That is, um, yeah, I think that's where the calves, that's where the calves fans are mentally, I guess I needed a trigger warning for that. That was awful. Alex Taylor. Geez, Alex Taylor. Um, and then this one I got before game seven from Brit Pierce about, um, watching James Hart and push off on every drive and flop all over the four. The best playoff moment this year has to be Dean Wade slipping on hard and sweat spot. And Tobias getting the run out dunk. The referee should be embarrassed for letting the ship for two decades. That would have been if the calves had lost, that would have been the signature play, but they won and now nobody will remember it. It also would have been like, I'm sure there was an understanding between James Harden and the Cleveland Cavaliers about what would come next when he has this player option for next year. And the Clippers, there was clearly an understanding about what would and would not come next with the Clippers. And when there's an understanding of that nature, James Harden tends to change teams and find one where he finds it better understanding. But if they had just flamed out in this series, and by the way, he was two of 10 today, it's not like he covered himself in glory in this game. He just didn't turn the ball over a lot. I thought he was good. Two for 10 was deceiving. I do think, and again, I'm sure they've already kind of talked about it, but I, like, I would have been like, you just opt into your player option and we could just wash our hands of this because he's getting old in front of my eyes. I don't think that's what happens. It's, I think the player options 43. Yeah. No, it's, it's what's going to happen is he's going to opt out and get a longer deal. I'm saying if he, if they flame out in this series and he goes down like he's gone down at other game sevens before, if I'm the calves, I'm like, I don't know, man. How many more years of this? Like, I know we traded garland. Don't you want to do, what if it was like 27 and 27? Is he going to take that? I guess, I guess he would. What draft was he in 2009? He's old. He's getting old. It's just him and Curry from that draft now, right? Is there anybody else from that draft? I don't know. You're better at the draft stuff than I am. I think that was. You do get to, you do get to have him as a trade ship in case you have one of those meetings that doesn't go well and then he gets traded to another place. Well, the question is, is this the third straight team? He felt like he was wink, wink, promise something that then did not materialize. Yeah, I did. I didn't sense, I didn't sense a lot of empathy for Darryl Mori from the James Harden camp when the news of Darryl Mori's firing was rippling through the combine in Chicago last week. I want to invite Darryl on my podcast and just pour truth sermons to him, get him to tell all kinds of stuff. With the painting of Harden being the background, do you think he still has the painting? Remember the Ramona Shelva wrote that piece and it was like, sit in the living room stands this painting of commissioned from this artist for this amount of money and it's James Harden doing this and then it's a quote from Darryl being like, yes, he is my muse. We will be forever connected. We hugged on the tarmac all those years ago. Well, when he has his podcast on the ringer, maybe James will be one of the first guests on the Darryl Mori show. The Darryl and Doc show? The Darryl and Doc show would be amazing. I don't think that one will happen. I don't know if there's a lot of… The mismatch part two, the mismatch 2.0? Yeah, that would be more than a mismatch. I don't see those two getting together for a pod. All right, Nick's, Nick's Cavs. Let's do it. Well, you'll do Tuesday morning, so you'll be able to do a pick on that series. So I won't step on your podcast. Listen to Zach's pod. I'm going to pick the Knicks. There's no amount of film study or whatever that I'm doing tomorrow that is going to make me pick the Cavs. I'm picking the Knicks. It's just a matter of how many games. I would lean right now toward Knicks and Five just because I think Mitchell will have one game when he goes nuts. That's usually what happens with him. If we'll have one game where everything goes right, would be my guess, but I don't. I just think the Knicks, it's weird. We have three classes of teams this year, not two as we get into Final Four because we have this OKC San Antonio all the way up here. I think we have the Knicks here, but Punisher's chance of being able to hang in a series against either of those teams. No question. And then probably the Cavs here. I think those are the three levels. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think the Knicks could win the championship. I wouldn't pick up. I'm not going to pick them over either of the Western Conference teams, but if you told me it's a 25% chance they could win one of those series, that sounds reasonable to me. I think the Knicks winning the championship. This is going to get cut out in no social media video. I'm fine with it. I think the Knicks winning the championship is the biggest thing left in any sport other than the Bills, Vikings or Detroit Lions winning a Super Bowl. And I probably left out another team where their friends are going to be mad at me. But when you think about the Knicks not winning since 73, but the generations of fans and the drought of 20 years and there's just so many parallels to me with the Red Sox pre-04. The just the emotion that will come out of that we cannot. I don't think there's another basketball team that would have it. There's some that it's unrealistic because like the Sacramento Kings, as long as they have the current owners will never win the title. So we can't even be like, oh, in Sacramento, it's like, we'll never know because they're not going to win. Phoenix a little bit just because of all their tough losses. But other, I just think the Knicks have the most fans. New York's the biggest city we have. Generations of fans going back to the fifties and grandfathers and great-grandfathers. And I just think it's the biggest thing we have. Well, look, I mean, outside the arena is already a complete shit show after every game. And I mean that mostly affectionately, but also like leave JR Smith alone and leave poor Brian Winnors alone this year if he comes to town. It's already insane there. And yeah, I mean, they're the Knicks. I mean, this is they are an absolutely iconic team there in New York's team in New York is a big gigantic city. I would throw out like the Timberwolves Vikings two for in Minnesota would be pretty huge. Well, how about this? Minnesota hasn't won a title of any kind since 91 and I don't even think the twins. I don't even think they've been in the finals in any sport since 91. I'm pretty sure that's true. I mean, my North star history is a little muddled. But the thing is, like, I know there's been a bunch of teams that have had droughts or have never won at all. Like the Maple Leafs fans are listening to me right now. Like what about us? So just the Knicks are the biggest city in America. Like they have the most fans. The point is like they've had 53 years of just getting their teeth kicked in and they have just a shitload of fans. So that's that's why I would make that argument. Can I give you one more? The Knicks are at 40, by the way. I'm aware and we beat the Yankees today and come from behind the bottom of the 10th win to take the subway series yet again. Can I just throw one other team at you? Yeah. I am curious to know what modern Atlanta would feel like if they got a team that they really felt like this could be a championship team. Like the but the but Hawks, I think everybody knew they're going to run into the Cleveland buzz saw at some point. And this was like a very fun team at a very fun story for like the basketball seat, right? Like, oh, they passed the ball. They do all this cool stuff with Corvair. Like what if they got a cool ass dude like jail in, I mean, Trey Young was, but they like Anthony. Like Anthony Edwards, whatever. Don't don't do that. Like University of Georgia, Georgia Native Anthony Edwards. But it had and had a team where you like actually believe that it's that seems like they would go crazy there. That would be a pretty good one. Hey, listen, lots of teams have a one Indiana get back there after the Halliburton coming so close and Halliburton going down like that would be another one. But I just think the Knicks have the they've so many fans and some but you and I mean, it's a little less. Fair for you because you're in the vicinity. I mean, the Heartlands. We just I just know so many next and it's like all they want. This is it. Um, all right. I'm going next in five. Okay. This is my pick. I don't know what the odds are. Let's uh, let's talk Spurs. Okay. See, oh my God. You, um, you were asking me what I thought the most anticipated series. The series has been since you and I have known each other, which was 2011. I tried to hire you. It didn't work out. And then you finally, finally came to Grantland the next year. Um, you sent me all these series that you thought were in the running for most anticipated playoff series trying to try to get my headspace back into what it was. What it felt like before those series started. Yeah. Kirk and I talked about this for a scratch on Tuesday and I said that I felt like this was the biggest series in eight years. But I didn't really put a ton of thought into it. And then when you and I were talking about it, I think the weirder thing to me is that we haven't had like a mammoth series like this in eight years. And I don't really know all the reasons for that because I do think we have a lot of talent in the 2020s. Um, I don't know if it's bad luck or I don't really have an answer, but I know that this is, this feels like the single biggest series we've had at least since the first Cavs Warriors one. But what would you, what would you go? Like what, what was the top five that you landed on? So first of all, my theories as to what you just, the void that you just talked about, I have a few theories. Let's hear it. No, let's go. Let's dive into it. I'm curious. I think the pandemic fucked up like two and a half seasons. They just didn't, not that they don't, don't, don't Lakers fans. I'm not saying that it just didn't, they didn't, the games didn't feel the same. Obviously. I'll say it. Oh no, don't be. The games are in a fucking bubble with cardboard cutouts of fans. Like that was insane. And then the next season there was attendance restrictions all over the league. And then I think the parody, like we've had seven champions in seven years, we just haven't had these like two colossuses who are rising next to each other and meeting in the playoffs over and over again, 60 plus win, just like juggernauts. And now we're going to have that. I'll give you my top five. I made my top five. Before you give me the top five. Yeah. I have a point off your point because I'm glad you brought the COVID. I think that would have been the best and biggest and most anticipated series, but we didn't get it because COVID would have been Lakers Clippers first Kawaii year, second LeBron year. They were the two best teams in the league. And we were headed that way. And I remember the weekend before all the COVID shit happened. And I think they might have even played that weekend and it just was clearly, I remember doing a podcast that Sunday and it was like, this is it, man, we're headed. We've never had the LA versus LA collision course. This is fucking happening. Kawaii was the reigning finals at BP LeBron had his fastball back like Davis was there. We were heading for it and it didn't happen. Street lights over spotlights. They had the Clippers had the whole ad campaign that was like, we're the anti Lakers of LA. It was great. And it just immediately was over for, for two plus years. We never had the awesome nuggets kind of, oh my God, nuggets series either. And probably the closest was that, that first battle with the Timberwolves and the Timberwolves ended up beating him in game seven. But there wasn't the anticipation for that, like with the Spurs. Anyway, the nuggets are in a bunch, like a bunch of my honorable mention, top 20 anticipated series. Like I think Thunder Nuggets last year was like, that was a pretty hot series. But again, it wasn't like it was earlier. No, you need like, it needs to feel like this is the finals right now. There's big legacy altering stuff. I have two of, hopefully the two best guys in the league, but at least two of the best three or four. Like you got to check a lot of boxes with this, which is what this series does. So what do you got? My top five, I did this from LeBron signing in Miami until now. Top five most anticipated series. I sent you a list. I have like 20 finalists. My top five were I'll go in reverse order. Number five, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Western Conference Finals 2012. It was like the old guys versus the young guys. The Spurs had acquired D out at the end of that, like a middle of that season, and they were on like a 20 game winning streak going into that series or they killed the Quippers killed them. They, I think they had won 20 straight games after going up to in that series. And then the Thunder were like, Oh, we're just younger and more athletic and we're actually ready. And they just wiped the Spurs out for Nero. So that was number five. By the way, on that 2012, which was a great basketball season and it was right after the lockout. So it was all condensed sped up and there was just a lot of basketball happening. And the thing that sucked is we lost Eric Rose at the beginning of that playoffs, but we had Chicago Miami Boston on one side. And then we had this lob city team that came out of nowhere because Chris Paul and up on the Quippers, you had this proud Spurs team trying to get their throne back. You had OKC ascending. And then you had, was there was one more, right? OKC, Quippers. No, that's it. Those three. So we had 16. Great and Grind Memphis was like floating around there. Yeah, kind of lurking. But, but yeah, that was a, I thought both of those Thunder series because Heat Thunder in the next round was also really great. But I like the non-finals for this. Okay. I'm with you on that one. Number four, most anticipated series, Warriors Thunder Western Conference Finals 2016 ends up being the Clay Thompson Game Six series. Just so I had that higher. I had that second on my list. Okay. Number because it was 73 and nine. It felt like it was Durant's last. Maybe he was getting out of there. Maybe he was going to Washington. Maybe he was going to Boston. The Golden State buzz had started, but most people didn't know whether to believe it or not. But it just felt like there was something momentous happening ahead of us. I'm not done with that team that year yet on my list. Great. Number three out of a bunch of candidates from this two year era, the 2014 finals, Heat Spurs 2. Oh, yeah. I think just the happiest I've ever been covering basketball was being at the back to back Heat Spurs finals. Just so many awesome players, awesome storylines. The vengeance storyline in the second one, the 2014 one after the Ray Allen shot, dear before it broke to Spurs hearts. He'd favored for that series too, which people forget. I think that's the air conditioning game is in that series, where the air conditioning goes out. Honorable mention, I just think the Spurs Thunder Conference Finals from that year is also awesome. That's my number three. By the way, Clippers Thunder that year was awesome too, right? Wasn't that 14? Honorable mention, not so awesome for the Clippers, but honorable mention. The Clippers had quite a dramatic playoff run that year with Donald Sterling happening right before. Number two, the 2016 NBA Finals, 73-win Warriors, LeBron and the Cavs, just the rematch after the first one had Kyrie injured, Kevin Love injured, and it ended up being not quite a fair fight as the Warriors won their first title. And number one, just slightly over that 2018 Western Conference Finals, Warriors versus the Rockets team with Chris Paul and James Hardin, and they switched everything and were built to beat the Warriors. It actually had them on the ropes, the Durant Warriors, the invincible Warriors that had gone 16-1 in the playoffs the year before. I think that was my number one. It's a great list. I had five of the six bolded. The one you didn't mention that I think has lost the history and was fucking awesome was Warriors Rockets 2019 when Durant was hurt. And it felt like it was, we were headed toward the end of this Warriors run. That was awesome. Probably weren't getting Durant back. It was Houston's best chance to take them down. And then Curry had that incredible second half. I think it was game six. What do you have like 30 in the second half? I think it's zero. I think you might have had zero in the first half. And it's also not just one of my favorite Curry games. It's one of my favorite Curry and Dremont together games because they just run the same two man game on the right side of the floor over and over again down the stretch. But they do six different things out of it in six different possessions. And the Rockets just don't even know what the hell hit them. And it's one open shot after another. 18 Western finals is a great one because it kind of did feel like the finals that LeBron had nobody left on the calves that season. That weird Celtic team that didn't even have Kyrie and Hayward almost made the finals came with a couple of mysteries and a couple. We had a thousand mysteries. But we also had the Chris Paul. Could this be it? And then he gets hurt in game four. That was an awesome series. For this decade, you you wrote down Clippers Mavs 21, Bucks Nets 21, Nuggets Suns 23, Sixer Celtics 23, Wolves Nuggets 24, Nuggets Clips 25 and Thunder Nuggets 25. The only one I think could be in the discussion is Bucks Nets. But I can't remember when the injuries started, but it was Yannis coming off two straight MVPs. It was your greatest theoretical team of all time, the Nets. It kind of felt like whoever won that series was making the finals. And as it turned out, it was the correct assumption because the other series was Hawke Sixers, which was the end of Bensonman's career as we knew it. But Bucks Nets was, I think we were excited for that. And then the injuries just started coming. Yeah, we were. I was trying to remember trying to put myself back into the space of like, I must have been pretty pumped for that series. COVID was back at that point. It was just that 21 was weird. I don't really remember a time. And by the way, I now remember as I'm going through the whole list of my honorable mentions, the very first one on my honorable mentions list chronologically is the 2011 NBA Finals Heat Mavs. And we were talking before about how making the conference finals and losing should not be treated as some catastrophic failure where I have to upend my entire team and pivot in a different direction. And what I forgot to say and now remember to say is that Maverick's team is the quintessential example of that. Yeah, they tweaked here and there, but they failed in the playoffs over and over and over again with Dirk, often in high profile ways. And they just took the attitude of it's not that bad to be a 50 to 58 win team every year and just be good and good and good and maybe hit great in the right year where we get the right matchups, the right chemistry, whatever. And maybe we'll win a title and they won the title and it's one of the most beloved title teams of the last quarter century. The NBA, they are the poster team for you don't always have to like blow it up or trade three people when you're running into a wall in the conference finals or wherever over and over again. So what are the 22 Warriors the poster boy of there because they won the title anyway, even though they should have made trades and they didn't because they were doing the two timelines bullshit. Well, I think they're the poster thing of like if you have a top 12 player of all time, wherever you think Steph is like you go and he's in his prime, just like just keep trying to win and they did. Basketball was really good from 12 to 14. We just had a lot of good teams and a lot of good players. I think the 2010 South the Glakers rematch. Dorff solved these. I think for a variety of reasons that also feels like it feels like the end of basketball and the start of this new era of basketball. Ironically, in this new decade when the three started to come in and the new Durant moved up and Curry and all these LeBron went to Miami. It just feels like basketball shifts as a sport and that's out the Glakers series. Incredible anticipation, but also feels like the end of a specific generation at the same time. I remember thinking at the time and I was not at this is 17 years ago, whatever 16 years ago, not as well versed in like the early, early history of the NBA as you were then I am now. So you can talk about the 69 finals, whatever. I remember I remember thinking at that time, could you make the argument that this game seven is the biggest game in the game? In the history of the NBA Celtics, Lakers, Lakers trying to close the title gap, Kobe, the big three Celtics going for one last ring when it felt like they should have had another one and never did. And just I don't think that was a crazy. I mean, I'm sure we could go back and find other candidates for such a lofty designation, but it had to be up there. Yeah, there's a couple of finals that I think levitate above the rest of them. 2016 is definitely like that. I mean, that's you could argue that that might be the biggest one. No, I'm just saying at the time in 2010, I was thinking is this one game. Obviously, yeah, 2016 that that was. No, but I'm saying going into certain series and being like, wow, they're the stakes just feel higher right now. That's why like if we get a game seven in this first under series. Oh my God. I think we're going to feel that way. Right. Because fun this. I know when he's 22, but I don't care, man. He's seven foot seven. You got to take a year by year when somebody's got that kind of size. And I just I'm always nervous about injuries with him. And then okay, see, you know, you just never know. It's really hard to just put title seasons together. It's hard to keep everybody happy. They've done a great job of it. Presti famously. And some of the stuff starting to come out a little about how he approaches player evaluation stuff, but really thinks about personality, chemistry, wanting to build these guys that are all going to pull for each other. That's why he sees somebody like Jared McKay and he just grabs him. There's like a certain type of person that he values. And they probably had the best chance of anyone of having a long, long run with a tail without any disease or more stuff happening. But well, you talk about stakes like Shay just won his second MVP in a row today. It was announced. Yep. If he they go, if they break, Sean somehow scooped everybody, but was it a scoop? Did anyone think Shay was not winning the MVP? Is there one person? I'm sure. No, I mean, I don't think it was a surprise, but I'm sure the league and its broadcast partners preferred that to be or the other broadcast partners preferred that to be out in a different way. Yeah, that wasn't great. But if they break the no repeat streak in the NBA now and he wins another finals MVP and they're still pretty young. I mean, like the historical stakes for him and for the Thunder team are now very big and they will begin to put if they win another title and they break the no repeat run, they will begin to put themselves into position with another title, whether it's next like if they win three out of four or four out of seven or something, they will get into some pretty big historical discussions. And like that starts now that starts with like this title and this is the first time they mean they it feels like they've barely participated in the playoffs. It's been so easy for them and now we're here. Yeah, back to back finals MVP Jordan Hakeem Shaq Kobe LeBron and Durant. That's the entire list. And then back to back regular season MVP's Russell will Kareem Moses Bird Magic Jordan Duncan Nash LeBron Curry, Yannis and Yokech. The Yannis second MVP. Got to got to re-investigate that one at some point. Well, look, no one reinvestigates an MVP race like you. I mean, you got a whole team under you. I think I voted for Yannis, but I but now it's like when they always talk about the LeBron one enough MVP's that might have been the shaky one that he should have taken. I think he finished second. I got I'd have to look back. Yeah, I don't know. I remember voting for Yannis both times. So anyway, the people who have done the back to back regular season and finals MVP, it's not a not a long list. Also, speaking MVP Yokech got second place. He officially top two MVP six straight years, Him, Bird and Russell. That's the whole list. Wow. I thought it would be a little closer in the in the voting than it was. Yeah, 83 first first placeers for Shay, 10 for Joker and five for Wemby. So you thought Joker would get more votes. Who do you think was going to get more votes? I thought Yokech would would snag like 10 more first place votes or would just be a little bit less of a route than it was. I have a segment I didn't tell you about called Spurs, OKC legacy check. Okay. Well, let's check some legacies out. Just mentioned Shay. Okay. He's really going for something unique here with the back to back and finals MVP and run VP. Chet has there's seeds of the Wemby feud going really since like 2023. It's like is something's here that doesn't seem like these there's a lot of love between these two guys and now they have a chance to really go at it. He's I think he's solidified himself as the second best under guy. Probably the second best defender in the league, second best center. He's their best chance to maybe nullify Wemby a little bit. I don't know if Wemby can be nullified. It might be impossible. Well, he's definitely not. Chet stuff here. He's definitely not the second best center in the NBA. I'm sorry. Joke. Yes. Third best center. Yeah. I mean, this goes back to before, you know, we're even in the NBA, the international basketball scene. There's a lot of there's a lot of Wemby Chet history. I'm just going to say like just let's see how Jalen Williams looks before. I mean, it doesn't really matter. They're both awesome. But before we definitively say that Chet has now surpassed him as the second best player in the Thunder, I mean, this was a dude who was like, oh my God, is he going to steal finals MVP at the last minute here? He's still in the league? Yeah, he's going to play. He's ready. Oh, I forgot what he looked like. Well, you get ready. He's going to look. You're going to see him again. He was on my legacy list. I wrote Jalen Williams hyphen. Were you here? I guess he was there. Do you not remember the finals last year? He was unbelievable. I know he was awesome. I had him. I had him like 12th of my ring 100. Just like to see him play. Can you play? Can you play some basketball? Legacy. See him. Presti. Okay. I think a title getting by this series and then the next series. I think officially he becomes one of the great GMs of all time. I think it's just official. Yeah, I don't. You're talking RBAC and West and Riley and Jerry Krause pick anyone, but to put that whole Durant run together, not have a quick get there and then do what he did with this decade. He's certainly been the best GM in the league for how many years now? The one that people point to. Yeah. I mean 15. I don't know if it's quite that long. It's very long time and there's indisputably he's in the, going to go in the pantheon of the best ever to do it. Yeah. AJ Mitchell. Best contract in the league. Bordering on one of the best this century with the way he's playing. Making $3 million a year. Ridiculous trade bait or keep bait for them. And in my opinion, hold on to your horses, Zach Lowe. Yeah. The single most important Thunder player in the series. Thunderer? Single most important Thunderer for this reason. The Spurs are going to go small and do that three guard thing and try to do speed and unleash their pit bulls and they need Mitchell to be really good. They need to be as good as he was the last two rounds. They're going to have to play lineups with him and SGA together and a defender and might even have to go a little smaller and he's just going to have to be good. He's going to have to do what he's done. And we haven't seen him do it at this level. We've seen him do it in the regular season. We've seen him do it against in series where they were much better than the other team. This is a whole other level. So we're going to find out. I love that you brought him up and I think you did for exactly the right reasons. I think it's very much worth noting that he missed three out of the five games the teams played this year and you felt his absence in the games he wasn't there. Just the secondary ball. The more ball handling you could I mean the dispersed secret sauce against the thunder was we have a ton of ball handling and enough that we can get into the pain against your defense and be not collapsing a hail of turnovers because we have reliable guards and that's what you feast on. But the thunder can play similar lineups now that AJ Mitchell has become AJ Mitchell to this degree. And I think we're going to see like I've been waiting for the Thunder death lineup all year and we've barely seen it. It's Shay AJ Mitchell Caruso Jalen Williams Chet Hongren at the end of some games or crunch out of some games. We've had glimpses of it. One of the glimpses was in one of the Spurs games. I was rewatching all of it. I think that's an awesome lineup that if we if we see everyone healthy we'll see a little bit more of it hopefully in this series and we've seen what's the lineup again. Shay Mitchell Jalen Williams Caruso Chet. It's like I want to I want to close. Can I close? So I haven't had defense with Caruso Chet. But I have a little more offense than three AJ in the dork spot. Three super dynamic ball handlers in Mitchell Shay and J Dubb. And just I just think it's like look there's no dork so you lose a little heft right. And there's no case in Wallace who's sort of your defensive ace in the hole at all times. But just something to watch for. Because the other thing with the Spurs is this is a fun series for them because they can play the Wemby with smaller guys lineup. They can play with three guards and a swing you know play with three and a half guards whatever they want. And it's not like OKC would be like OK we're going big and you're making it there just not to be able to do it. So I do think the guards versus guards thing which was a huge advantage for San Antonio. OKC has the guards. So I have Mitchell Alex. Alex Caruso role player Hall of Fame is like in reach now for him. Absolutely. This would be three titles for him. I think they really need him in this series specifically because I want to see who do you think guards Harper for them. I mean I think it's good. All of these are just going to be a combination of tons of different people depending on who else is in the game. So let's say let's say end of the game they go Fox Harper Castle Bissell and Wemby. I mean they rarely play that they Spurs rarely put all three of the guards on the floor together. It just it just hasn't happened very much this year. But sure we can we can they were doing a little more in the playoffs though just a little but not very much because Champaign plays a ton. Keldon Johnson plays a ton. Yeah. And yeah. But so and like I well this is the I mean this is the interesting chess match of the series is right. Like I think we would the Thunder are awesome in any configuration and we have not seen hardly any of Hartenstein and Holmgren together against the Spurs with Wemby on the floor. So those those two the double big the best double big they have that you can't you got to play shooters. They've only played 33 minutes against the Spurs in five games in a Brazilian only in three games. And if you go back and watch a lot of them were against Cornette and Harrison Barnes because Wemby came off the bench into the games that they played. And so they start and Wemby comes in and like it when it's Wemby is the only big man on the floor for the Spurs and Chet is the only big man on the floor for the Thunder. I just think the chess match that's going to evolve over the course of the series is going to be fascinating starting with do they guard each other. And if so how often because the Thunder have put Chet on you know Harrison Barnes Keldon Johnson basically not Wemby and the Spurs have kind of toggled between Wemby sure you can guard Chet you can guard anybody but we like you have like guard Caruso and Roeve guard Dort and Roeve like I just think that chess match is going to be super interesting. And will Dort guard Wemby. Everyone got that what happened. Dort guarded Fox a lot so their base their base alignment when it was one big versus one big if they had one that was used the most frequently it was like Dort on Fox and Jalen Williams on Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and then they would have to go to Wemby and I think that gets narrowed down I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think they look at as do we try him at the five a little bit or we like his shooting at the four next to Chet. He guarded Wemby a bit. I wonder if he's a guy that is going to get a shot to play a little bit in the series. Wemby, I have for legacy as this would be the single craziest ascent since 1977, Bill Walton. Pretty much. If you're just like, hey, I'm going to actually win four straight series and take the title here at age 22. Harper is definitely moving into that 1981, Mikhail, 83 worthy, 88 Pippin, 2003 Manu and Tony, where this is just a guy at the beginning of his career who was also a huge chess piece. And it's somebody that I genuinely think he has a chance to be a Hall of Fame like top 50 guard. There's a house that I were talking about the other day. Like it, like I was talking there when young Jason Kidd showed up and you know, some of the best guards are the last 40 years I've seen in the beginning stages. I just think he has it. Like I would bet anything. I don't think that's a daring bet. He absolutely has it. He's going to be a star. There's a world in which this was a popular debate question. I was meeting everyone at the combine was a best player from that draft in five years and 10 years. Is it automatically Cooper or is it Harper? Those were the two. Can't say automatic anything. I think people would defer to the size that Cooper has, but I think Harper being the best player in the draft is in play. And by the way, all the love Harper's getting is incredible. Like he's incredible in the jnobly comparisons. They're lefties. They come off the bench. Noblee's mentoring him. It's an amazing story. He has totally stepped up in the playoffs. Steph Castles averaging 26 and five on 49% shooting and 44% on three. And just being a gigantic pain in the ass to everyone at every position on defense and he's going to guard SGA a lot. And like, I just can't, I just can't wait for that. What a show that's going to be. I had Castle as the next legacy guy. I wrote down horrific haunting of the 2024 top three draft. Oh my God. What a slide. It's just horrific at this point. The Reed Shepherd stuff. I mean, for teams that have All of them. I had them first. But for teams that have massively high stakes, like are ready to win big right now, the rockets and the spurs. The spurs didn't quite know that they were going to be ready this fast. That's a huge sliding doors moment in like the coming history of the West. Brutal. Cornette and Barnes. I was going to say, what are we going to say? When are we going to get to Cornette's second title? When is that? Barnes. How about Barnes? Well, but you, okay. Darren Fox escaped from Sacramento. This guy was playing on the Vivec, Rated dive, Kings 18 months ago. And now it's in the best series in 10 years. I just watched the jailbreak deal, the jailblazers documentary on Netflix. Yeah. Escape. Escape from Sacramento sounds like the next Netflix or Amazon basketball mini doc. Mitch Johnson versus Dagnall, the most boring, great coach matchup in NBA history. Sure. Can anyone name three things about either of these guys? Mitch Johnson went to Stanford and Mark Dagnall coached the Tulsa Blue. Mark Dagnall with Levenson Massachusetts. Levenson Massachusetts. I know that. Mitch Johnson, son of John Johnson, NBA champ, Seattle, ended up on the Celtics in 1976 and something got screwed up. And I can't remember what happened. The trade got voided or the signing, something weird. And they actually had to trade them again to Seattle. But during that brief time, looked at my mom and dad's condo, came into the condo because we were selling the condo, moving to another house. And John Johnson, you remember the Celtic, he walked through the condo and six year old me almost had a heart attack or seven year old me, however old I was. What a, what a. That's, that's my most exciting Mitch Johnson story for you. It's a lot of information about Mitch Johnson's dad. How long could somebody spend with Mitch Johnson and Dagnall together drinking beers before something fun happened? Oh, I bet. Two hours? No, I bet not that long. I like. Because the Levenster is going to come out of Dagnall at some point. Everyone get, you get a couple people, a couple beers in it becomes a fun time. One of my college roommates was from Levenster, Chuck LaPasta. LaPasta? Chuck LaPasta. Shout out Chuck. And then last one for me for legacy check, Adam Silver. OK, the Spurs Nick series is sitting right there. This is your biggest rating series since 2016. Whenby vs. the Knicks. What? What? Pull some strings. Remember when the Spurs were the boring killers of ratings, even when they were like, yeah, not anymore. Just immaculate. Yeah, basketball team. And now they have freaking like, nobody can take their eyes off this dude. For people who know nothing about the NBA are asking about him and watching these games. And by the way, I'm like, we're we've barely scratched the surface of just how awesome this series could be. I mean, we were texting like I looked it up because I'm like, man, the Spurs. Every loss they've had in the playoffs has been like whenby got a concussion. No, they have three Astros losses. Whenby got ejected. And I looked it up in the last since February 1st. And look, everything says the Thunder should win, right? It's experience versus youth. The Spurs haven't taken their lumps back to back champs, number one seed, all of that stuff. And their records incredible. And it's absolutely terrifying to not pick the Spurs because since February 1st, the Spurs are 37 and three playoffs in regular season. Whenby plays at least 15 minutes in a game, 37 and three in half a season. It's they just don't lose when he plays a real game. They don't lose any games anymore. Feels like they're just up 20 all the time, but you could say the same about OKC. Yeah. I'm picking the Spurs. OK. They are what? What is there? What are the odds for this right now? Let's see. So they are. Plus two twenty for the series. I'm taking it. I would do Spurs in five, 50 to one or Spurs in six plus five, 50 for these. These are bets. Are you just picking them to win the series? No, I'm picking the Spurs to win. I'm just saying that the value I like are those two. Think what I think asking the Spurs to win a game seven with how young their team are is in OKC is a little ambitious. I think it has to be in six. I like Van Godney mentioned it today. It's a great point. I thought Van Godney has been really good. The whole playoff shout out to him. Two man booth, clearly his destiny for broadcasting. Three man didn't like him. Two man great. Made a great point about the rest of this thing. We see this every year. We always forget the team that's been playing and is in the groove and, you know, can just go from one to the other. They always have an advantage in game one over the team that hasn't played. So I think the Spurs. I really think they actually have to win game one to win the series as goofy as that sounds. And I think they are going to win game one. And so that one on Fandall Spurs to win game one in the series is plus four 50. So I like that bet too. But I think the Spurs are going to win Zach. I just think they've caught lightning in a bottle and this feels like 77 blazers to me. I'm tired of thinking about the teams from the past and how you got to learn and take your lumps. And I just don't think it matters. They have a seven foot seven guy who's out of control and a bunch of pit bulls. And they absolutely struck oil with the still and Harper thing. Like this is to get those three guys and back to back drafts. This is the kind of fluke you need to win a title when your best guys are 22, 21 and 20. And I think it's going to I think they're going to win. I said it on Christmas. The Spurs can win the championship and they absolutely can win the championship. I forgot one more thing in my my pick. OK, the Jaylen Williams thing is I know he's going to be back and they feel good about it. But I think it's a weird variable to introduce into the biggest series of the year. And I don't think it's going to be seamless. And I do think OKC is too many guys. I don't know about all the roles with all those guys and they can. I know they have great chemistry and all that stuff. But I don't even think they know who their best five to seven guys are. Whereas I think San Antonio knows. I think they know exactly who they are, what lineups work and don't work for them. And I just think they're going to win. These are all great reasons to speak to Spurs. You don't even need great reasons to speak to Spurs. They won 60 whatever games, 37 and three in their last 40 games when Wemby plays more than 15 minutes. I mean, it's an unimpeachable pick. They can absolutely win the title. I'm going to pick the Thunder and seven. The jail. I respect it. The jail in Williamson is not a worry to me other than is he going to get re-injured again? I think he probably could have come back earlier had they felt any kind of pressure at all for me. The sons of the Lakers and they got to sit him out for a long time. I do. I still will defer a little bit to the experience factor and having been through these moments of like big total stress. Although the Spurs seem completely carefree to the point that Wemby was like, I'll kick a game by elbowing Nas, read in the head. Like, I don't really care. We'll lose this one. We're going to be fine. I just want to elbow Nas, read in the head because I'm fucking annoyed at everything. And I look, they have a lot of guys. They have a ton of continuity. So I don't think reintroducing J Dubb is going to be that big of a deal. And they're just going to have to make some decisions. Maybe it's a big versus small decision. Maybe it's like not an Isaiah, as a Joe series. Maybe it's whatever they've already done it with Aaron Wiggins, too. And whatever 37 and three you can make. There's a similar record sitting out there for Oklahoma City and it's last like 40 games with Shay or something like that. It's scary. This is what the Spurs did to them in the regular season was legit. I went back and watched all the film. You can definitely see Shay looking uncomfortable, looking like this is my pet. This is my pet jump shot. This is the pet move I do every game. And I don't have it anywhere. But the guy on me is a pretty good defender. And like I see that the giant arm there and I know he can jump really far and get to. And like you would see him pull out of shots that he makes in his sweep. But I think. I look these are two awesome teams. I think Oklahoma City has home court advantage. They're more experienced. And I do think they probably have a little bit of an extra gear that they've been waiting and saving and reserved for a series like this. So I'm going to defer to the champs and pick Thunder. Totally respected. And my second, as long as we're being full disclosure, my second backup pick would be Thunder and Six. Like this is not a case where I'm picking Thunder and Seven, but I kind of don't. It's wishy washy and it's 50-50. I would I'm picking the Thunder to win the series. So I think I would go Thunder and Seven, Thunder and Six. Maybe Spurs and Six is the third most likely outcome, but I'm going Thunder. We both a really long series. Six games is plus two ten on Fando and plus two 20 is seven games. And that's another way to just bet both. What's sweet, plus 1200 or something like that? Oh, my God. Spurs sweep is 25 to one. Thunder sweep is plus five 50. I just don't see that's lower than I would have expected. OKC in five is plus two 90. OKC in six is plus four 70. It's pretty strong, actually. Um, can I just give Mitch? Can I just give Mitch Johnson a little love for this? Yeah. I mentioned how, like, the teams have obviously all season gone back and forth with putting their their centers not on Webby. And Oklahoma City has done that quite a bit. And Castle is now like the guy that they try to do this with. And Castle has just been like, you think this works like this isn't going to work. How about I just shoot 45 percent of three and when I'm not doing that, how about I just barrel to the rim with all the space you're giving me? And I'll score 32 points in elimination game. But he's been the guy that like clinging guarded Castle and on and on. Midseason moving Harrison Barnes to the bench in favor of Julian Champagny. I mean, it's one of the most important midseason adjustments that coaches made in a long time. It completely changed the Spurs because Harrison Barnes was the safest guy to put your center on. And Mitch Johnson had to go to Harrison Barnes, who was having a nice year and making a ton of corner threes, but starting to slow down, be like, hey, man, and is a is a bigger, better defender than Julian Champagny, bigger for sure, better in certain situations and say, we're going to we're going to start this unproved, like relatively unproven shooter over you because we just have to maximize Webby and you're too safe of a hiding spot for these other centers. They can roam off you. They don't have to guard him. And our goal just has to be we're going to make it as hard as possible for you to finagle the matchups with where your center is on the floor. And like it's Julian Champagny. It's not like some like 10 year veteran with a track record. And Harrison Barnes ate it and he took it and you remain productive. And now he's barely playing because that's what happens in the playoffs. And it worked. And it was like not a gutsy move, but it was like it was a big like seismic shift in how the Spurs are guarded, I think. It's a good one. Minnesota quick. This is another thing for my San Antonio case. I think Minnesota was really good. And I think San Antonio just kind of broke them as a series went along, specifically Randall, who just his brain broke during that series. So rough, rough playoffs. Edwards was at 100 percent. They used some stuff against Minnesota. You know, obviously they were lying on calmly a little too much. Go Bear. Go Bear. Was eradicated in that series. But I actually thought it was a more impressive six game when because they really should have just swept them, you know, when he gets kicked out of the one game. I don't know that that game one looking back like they if Champagny just hits the three, they maybe they win that. But I really like that Minnesota team, which brings me to what do you do with them? Minnesota. Randall has 36 this year or this upcoming year and 33 the next year. Go Bear is 36 and 38. They asked them to figure out IO and Defenschenzo is 12.5 expiring next year. I don't think Edwards or McDaniels goes anywhere. Do you buy anything that this team got a little screwed up holistically when everybody was getting shot for three minutes there when they thought they had a chance to get Yanis? Not really because you didn't hear a lot of that when they were kicking the shit out of the nuggets in the first round. Like it wasn't a problem then against a team with, you know, one of the two or three best players, minimum two best players in the world. And that when you lose, then it becomes a problem all of a sudden. But against that team was a problem. What's a problem is Julius Randall's been in the playoffs four times in his career, and three of them have been complete disasters. And one of them, like I said, one of them was a disaster and one of them last year was we thought, OK, got over the playoff hump after just I think he came in to last year shooting like 30 percent for his career in the playoffs and had a great playoffs and he reverted right back to what he had been in the first two runs of the playoffs. That was that. Is that because of the trade stuff? I don't really I don't really buy that. I think what really submarine them was and the Edwards was 100 percent. I always 100 percent. Even Chenzo towards Achilles and they stopped playing Bones Highland. Like they just kind of ran out of ran out of guys and then go there had four points combined in the last two games of the series. I think it's a good showing for them with all that injury stuff to take two out of the spurs, I think is a perfectly fine showing. Doesn't feel good. So they can they can put together Randall and deep and Chenzo's expire. He's not going to play next year. If he plays, he won't be back till April. And you could take back somebody else's big money problem if you want. OK, but you could be like, all right, we'll take Zachlevine's last year. Well, why is that? Why? What is that doing for me? I'm just I'm just pointing out they could put those contracts together. If they wanted to change something, they could think about something like that. Somebody's big expiring, which would give them more trade flexibility in December, January, February, maybe than what they have. I don't know what you do about Go Bear. After that spurs series. And who knows? It might be a get over the hump thing like we talked about earlier, where they had their run and this is kind of where they are. And now they're clearly just going to be behind Saint Antonia and OKC for the rest of the decade. And that's where we are. You know what? Though I get again, like this is a franchise that from the last couple years of Garnet to the one Jimmy Butler year just sucked, sucked continuously and sucked in every possible fashion. I mean, like a little flirting with like we're all we're 500 with Rick Rubio and Kevin Love were like a fun team to watch. Nicole Peckovich, but like they just weren't good. They did nothing in the playoffs. They had the one Butler year they losing the first bad injury luck with Rubio, bad injury luck without Jefferson. And just like everything goes wrong. And then they but the Butler thing goes haywire. And then you're back not quite to square one, but back to like, we got to figure out what the hell we're doing with this team. And now you've been in two straight conference finals and a conference semifinal where you win two games off Victor Wimidyama. Like this is just indisputably an awesome three years for the Minnesota. Like all of their fans should are elated by everything that's happened. With all that said, you can't bring Randall back. Well, what are you going to do? You have to figure out how to trade him for somebody else. Well, this was the, this was always the mystery of like, they're in on Yanis. They're in on Yanis. They're one of the teams that's like in last 72 hours, still in contact with Milwaukee. And I never got how that was going to happen because they don't have any. They have very minimal to know first round picks to trade. I never believed it. I never understood how they were getting them. But I, I believe that. But McDaniels would have had to have been in the trade for them to have any sort of assets to think about for Yanis, I think. Well, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Again, I don't know how, but yes, if there's a person on their team who's getting you multiple good first round picks, that's who it is. And, you know, I don't, I just don't know how they're going to do it. But if they were trying then they'll surely try again. God, I hate bringing this up. Can we talk about Yanis's trade value for a second? When you, this is your favorite, one of your favorite topics. So go ahead. Well, we're going to be talking about it for the next four to five weeks. He was in the news this week because Miles Turner gave that interview talking about. That was, that was pretty, I have no problem saying this because he's not going to be on my team like next year. So here's some tea. I'm going to spill. Um, or it's just like, Hey man, they paid me $25 million a year where I didn't have a lot, a lot of other options. I'm just happy as a clam. This is all great for me. I know. He's stunk this year though. Um, I can't really find the team for Yanis. I thought this was going to be a lot easier. Last year, if we were doing this a year ago, I think we had multiple suitors and, just, just kind of talking to people and hearing from different people about this. I'm really surprised how lukewarm the market is for him. I don't think people feel like this is a home run. This will change my franchise. I will now have a chance to win the title. It was telling that San Antonio and okay, so you wanted no part of them when they had the most assets. It seems to me that the team that would trade for Yanis would be a team that needs to take a little bit of a hail Mary or as a really short window. And that rules out a lot of teams. I, you know, my dad and I have kind of landed the, we hope it's not the Celtics. That's where I've landed after looking at this from every direction. I don't, no, Simmons colon awful announcing tomorrow Simmons. Oh, Jesus. I don't want Yanis in Boston. Get that guy fucking out of here. I don't know. I went through all the stuff what two months ago about the year 14 and after big guys and how, how kind of creepy the stats were and how few guys even had a lot of money. How few guys even were able to put up 2010s and the injury history hit in the last five years. And it just doesn't, something's just telling me to stay away. And I know some teams will talk themselves into it, but I just don't know what he's worth. I don't, I can't figure it out. So what have your, as you talk to people in the league, what are you hearing? So I mentioned this last week when I got back from the combine that it, like the thing comes out from Shams that the bucks are quote open for business, which we already knew that they're going to be open for business. Jimmy Haslam came out and said, we're going to be open for business. Again, we wanted to do it before the draft, if we're not going to sign him or if he's not going to sign, whatever. And it just like there's a, it's an interesting paradox because there's a general, I mean, everyone was in Chicago. I saw a million people. Yeah. There's a, there's a general assumption that he will get traded because that's just what happens, right? Like when the toothpaste is as far out of the tube. Yeah. And yet no one can really identify the team that fits the right, the right package of like, we have stuff, a lot of stuff that's going to entice Milwaukee and we're going to be good enough to justify sending out all that stuff when Yanis is here. And I said this, I had, I met up with a very high powered agent who knows things and we were just shooting the shit. And I said, so what's your bet on Yanis? And he said, yeah, I'm just, I'm going no trade. I'm in the contrarian zone. I think I'm going no trade. I think he's going to be on the box. And I was like, really? Why? He's like, I just don't know what the team is. Who's the team? Go through all the teams, find the team. And it was like a fairly convincing argument that I still, but didn't sway me. Like I think he's going to get traded still. And that's why I said after all that, if I just had to bet, if you made me like pick a team that is, if I just had to guess if he's traded, where is he traded? I would put Miami as my number one guest team because they fit the Hail Mary thing you just said because they have just enough stuff that if they threw it all together, the bucks could sell it as like, yeah, we got, we got a lot. And maybe we can reflip this one guy we got and like get another thing. And, but I don't feel great about that package, whatever it is, if I'm Milwaukee. Portland would be the other team. And I don't even know if he'd want to go there. The other thing is at least he's not a two way player. So he can travel to all the games. I think he's fixing that though, Dundon. He didn't, he went on game over with Richard Maxx and said, he thought, he thought it was more like hockey. I saw that. I saw it. I didn't realize all the players went to the games. Yeah. Well, he learned, he learned a valuable lesson. Some of the stuff we keep hearing, everybody seems terrified about the injury history and the miles on the body, right? Using almost like a running back in football or a car that has a ton of miles on it that's gone cross country. Just wondering if I get Giannis, how many years left am I actually getting? There's also the stylistic thing. If you already have a best player in your team, how is that person going to fit with Giannis, the guy who likes to have the ball, who likes to be at the top of the key? How do you, how does that fit with somebody like Jason Tatum? Right. And then, you know, I think everybody loves Giannis, the guy. I think everybody thinks he's a great guy. But there's some, there's some stuff that comes with Giannis, right? He's got multiple agents. He's got, he's got the two brothers. He's been the superstar in a, in his own team now for 11, 12 years, probably used accustomed to certain treatments. And it's just, it's risky to bring somebody in like that. We've seen it not work in the NBA where it's like, I'm a big star, I'm walking in, this is now my new team. And sometimes it doesn't work great. Even when Dame came to Milwaukee, it was rocky there for a year. It was a similar situation. So I think we're, I think we're both looking at the same team and the same kind of Hail Mary situation. Would you say you still expect him to be traded though? I do. I do too. Because here's what I think has changed. I think it's become acrimonious with him and the GM. I think him not playing at the end of last year. I don't think it's on good terms. Well, look, I mean, the Miles Turner stuff got kind of a chuckle from people, but that was real shit. And he was basically saying the dude was never on time ever without saying who it was, but we knew who he was talking about. And like, I mean, I didn't realize it. I did not say who it was. Did he not? Did he just say it's the best player or whatever? Yeah, he, there was some dancing around, but you could tell who he was talking about. I mean, that's that certainly wasn't kind to doc either. That kind of stuff annoys whoever it is annoys players. Like I've heard stories about we had to hold the plane because this guy was late and everyone's grumbling because they have dinner plans when they get to the city or like the guy, the guy was late for his massage table appointment and it like had created this whole backup that ruined everybody's days. And when the guy, if it, if he's talking about, you know, honestly, when the, you just, if you're the best guy on the team and you're the franchise guy, you can't do that stuff is not acceptable for someone. You have to be the other way. You have to be the guy who sets the standard for the rest of the team. There's one other team that I think we have to mention and it ties into another theme that I've been wondering about if there's going to be punishment against the Clippers. Should they be moving fast right now and trying to trade their picks in case they're worried that they might get taken away? And if you're going to do that, like, do you just, could you just trade the number five pick for Yanis right now? And just we're trying to win a title with Kawhi and Yanis and Garland and, yes. I think they would have the cap space to do it. They could put a couple of expirings there to make it, to make it work and basically try to jumpstart if they feel like a punishment's coming because I think that the feeling is we're going to have a verdict pretty soon. That would shock me if only because I mean, I was there when it happened and I saw other people they just feel like they got a new lease on life with this pick. I mean, just a new, that it completely changed everything about their franchise and it would just absolutely blow me away. So who were the other Hail Mary teams then? I guess you could say if Cleveland gets annihilated by the NICs, maybe they're in that zone. Well, that's what I was going to say is like, would you trade Mowgli for Yanis straight up at this point with the injury history? Because I don't think I would. I'd be, I don't think that's a smart move. It'd be, I don't know if I would do it honestly, but if like a couple of years of Mitchell plus Yanis is interesting enough. Yeah, you're short hair, two-year, yeah, that's like a classic two-year window. I would be very nervous to do that. So yeah, how the playoffs play out is a big part of it, right? We haven't mentioned Houston and then you have the other kind of older Hail Mary teams who may not have enough to get it done like the Lakers and the Warriors and teams like that, right? But who else? That's it. That's it. Rockets, I mean, would you trade Shangoon and another contract for Yanis and throw some picks in? I don't know if I would do that. The only other one I could think of is Brooklyn. I do not, as we said before, I don't think they're keeping their six pick. And is it like a two-part move where move one is Yanis, move two is something else, and you go in on two stars and now you're in the mix in the east? Well, that's the thing with Brooklyn is like, they've been floating around the rumor mill like this with Yanis for a long time. And the question has always been like, who is Yanis going there to play with? And given his age and his injury history, you don't get a year to be like, we'll find another guy. Like that year, you have to have your team ready to compete at the highest possible level. The six pick is super interesting. Like I haven't heard a lot of buzz about the Nets in the six pick yet, but they're just in the range where everybody's a guard and they just drafted a million guards. And not all of them are like, your guy Burry is not a point guard. So maybe he would fit there, but it is an interesting place for them to land in the dry. A Cup for Waggaur has to be six. They just have the most value and they don't need either of those guys. I also think all the intel I've gotten is that they don't want to have another rebuilding year. Like they want to be good. They're tired of this. And the Nets aren't a weird spot. The Si family, who I think everybody thinks are great owners and it's like a first class team, they have this awesome WNBA team situation where they sell out, people love it, there's real energy in the arena. And then they have this Nets team that's just punted and they're playing in the same city as a team that's about to make the finals, barring something crazy happening. So I don't see how they don't try to. I had someone make the best possible pitch to me about the Nets at the six pick. And he was just, I don't even remember who it was. It was a front off Skyline and their team. He was just, he didn't know anything concrete. He was just saying, this is what they should do. He was like, I don't even care who they took in the last draft. They should take a cuff because he would just be like the ultimate draw. Like the hipsters would be like, this kind of is a cool undersized guy who does cool stuff. Like he would just fit what they just give them a buzz, give them some hipster, like street cred, like he would do. He was just like, fuck all the guys they just picked. Maybe they'll develop, maybe they want, they should take a cuff no matter what, if he's still there. I agree with that. Cause he has real Kyrie potential and you have to investigate it. But yeah, so if we're talking, you know, the draft's still five weeks away, but I do feel like we're in range now, it's May 17th. The draft is in five weeks. And I think some trade stuff is, is starting, you know, the Celtics are certainly looking at it. I think the Celtics, whatever, I've talked about this already, but whatever they decided to do a Jalen, I think would be, I don't think it's a Yannis move. I think it's more of a, can we get two pieces for Jalen, some salary, a cap relief, and maybe somebody that makes less money than him two years from now type of thing. But I would say they're way more likely to keep them than trade him. You know, I would, I do think it's more likely to use on the team next year than not. Yeah, I don't, I don't know anything more than that. So we'll see. It's a weird situation. All right. Well, it's past midnight, your time and you have to get up early tomorrow. So we have to go. Anything else? We cover everything? I think we covered everything. What was the best thing you heard in Chicago that you didn't talk about in your podcast? Oh God, I talked about a lot of it on my podcast. Seemed like a lot of people were there. It was crowded. It was, it was, everyone's always there. It's one of the grits like Vegas, but in a shorter period of time and in a normal city, and not Vegas, which I do like Vegas a lot actually, but I'll have to think about that. I had nothing. All right. So we have, we have Nix and we have spur. I have the spurs you have. Okay. See, and we both have Nix. Yeah. Okay. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo. Thanks to Zach Lowe as well. Don't forget new rewatchables for me tomorrow. Borat. Very nice. Really fun one. And then I'll be back on Tuesday night. Zach's going to have a new podcast on Tuesday morning after game one, spurs, Thunder, which should be an all-timer. Zach, great to see you as always. It's, it's going to be a blast. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and president DC, Kentucky or Wyoming game, prom, call 1-800-GAMBO or 1-800-MY-reset. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 seven sport in Massachusetts or call 877-8 HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York for Louisiana. 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