Ep. 246: Dermot Kennedy | How an Irish Busker Became a Worldwide Phenomenon

Between busking me and me now, there's no difference. It's just like some shit went well for me. It took me a long time to have a career. Busking and playing in the street and stuff like that was, say, 15 years ago. I'm kind of the town crier for everybody I care about. You get me so often. I'll have songs that I'm not singing about myself. I'll be singing about my sister or my mom in ways makes it, to be honest, a lot more powerful for me because I have all these people with me essentially on stage. How do you build out your team? To be honest, I would look back and say I was quite lucky to not fall into a really bad deal because I was keen, you know, like I was super eager to succeed. And in my naivety, I was kind of like, OK, well, if someone's offering me a record deal, that's how you, that's a successful thing. So how did you learn about the business? You don't follow stats at all? Nowadays, I don't pay attention at all. Yeah, I would just check it every single day to see if it was going up or down, which is pointless. It's not good for my brain. What are things that artists can do to actually move the needle? This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association, champions of songwriters and publishers. Everyone, welcome to and the writer is I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's troubadour went from busking Dublin street corners to headlining arenas, which explains why his intimate lyrics can hold a crowd's attention, regardless of the size. I know I've seen him work up close. He's earned platinum records and billions of streams by mixing his Irish folk roots, heavy beats and stadium sized emotion all the way from the Emerald Isle. This family man makes music on his terms. And the writer is Dermot Kennedy. What's up? Good to see you. Hey. How's it going? Thank you for that. That was a lovely intro. Hey, for our viewers who don't know Dermot Kennedy. Yeah, what are some songs that you've written? Oh, I mean, yeah, it's funny even to hear you talk about busking and some feels like another life, but I don't know what's the biggest song outnumbered. Maybe a numbered better days. They feel yeah, better days, probably. But you know, I definitely don't know. You don't follow stats at all. I used to be mega clinical and obsessed. I'm one or the other nowadays. I don't pay attention at all. And I think it benefits me massively. Is that like you have to work at that? And no, it was just quite a clear cut decision. Like I remember like, yeah, I would just check it every single day to see if it was going up or down, which is pointless. It's not good for my brain. It is not. It's a weird thing when it's hard to explain this to people who haven't had songs out. But when you're sort of willing something to go forward or hoping it doesn't fall, and it's totally out of your control. Yes. It was like, yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's like, that's where I'm at now. I think I spent an awful lot of time trying so hard. And I'm at a point now where I don't mean this in like an apathetic way, but I just I like it's going to be what it's going to be. You know what I mean? Like the music is made. And I yeah, I think I don't think an awful lot of good comes from just like, like you said, like willing and trying so hard. I don't think good things happen. What are things that artists can do to actually move the needle? Oh, which I knew that quite like, I mean, stick to your guns. I think we we we kind of are constantly at different points within music. And I think now people value authenticity an awful lot, you know, I think for me, my experience is that I kind of I've always been quite ambitious. And so you have to kind of take that side of your character alongside the creative and the sensitive person. And you have to make them live together. And it was interesting because for me, the ambition side, what that looked like is kind of plain four nights in a row and being exhausted and thinking you should be, you know, and you should work that hard. And it's like it all made sense. And it's just like, I don't know. At some point I said this a while back, I think I could kind of sense that the audience could tell how hard I was trying. And it's just not cool. And I know that sounds like it's two percent like it's not cool. But, you know, we all warm to certain things because we think they're cool. It's not cool to kind of just be playing 200 shows because you think you're meant to, you know, they should be good shows. It should be it's quite a sacred thing, you know, you shouldn't rinse it. You think that the audience could tell the difference? Yeah, I think so. In every sense, you know, like it goes from like show production to like the songs you're playing to how you behave on stage. I like no matter how professional you are, I think at some point, if you're just playing hundreds of shows, there's going to be one or two nights where you're not phoning it in. But you know what I mean? Yeah, that's a really interesting thing because, you know, at least my experience of having performed, I would I would remember the word that I that I flubbed on. I would remember the melody that I made. And when you're in a crowd, you're just hearing noise. You're not necessarily like hearing every single word. No, you know, so it's like the stuff that you'd beat yourself up on on a bad show. What would that be? On a bad one? Yeah, be same sort of stuff. Like just if I didn't feel like my voice was good, if I felt I made certain mistakes. But like we went to see halfway last night here. And yeah, like when you're in the crowd, you don't care. You don't care. My perspective on stage is awful, like so bad. Do you beat yourself up while you're performing? Constantly. Yeah. I would say like the last two songs. I'm like, all right, cool. Like did a gig. What goes on in your head before you do a show? No, I'm not stressed before a show ever. It's funny because I often talk to artists who get really nervous and they say when the show begins, they kind of find their feet. Whereas I'm the complete opposite. I feel very confident and relaxed. And then when I'm doing it, I freak out. Yeah, not freak out, but I just like I'm very in my own head. Yeah. Do you ever lose yourself in the lyrics or anything? Well, yeah, it's not that they don't have meaning, but I'm never like I'm not. You know, there's some people that I go, my God, when I'm on stage, I'm just like in sort of tunnel vision. I don't have that feeling. Yeah, I'm so like I'm so hyper focused on what the next line is. And if I if I like lose myself like shit where I'm because I like I'm overthinking, then it's like it feels like, you know. Yeah. And sometimes I'm reluctant to say it because I don't want it. I don't want people to think that is not the most important thing in the world to me. But I'm certainly I'm not in like I'm not kind of just like breezing through it like in some kind of Zen state. It's very it's very kind of what's the word? Not cognizant. It's very yeah, I'm very within my own sort of thought. Is it torturous? Sometimes, yeah. Why do you do it? Because I'm very lucky to like even sitting here talking to you is like I'm at work. It's crazy. Like I'm not trying to be corny, but like I'm kind of like you talked about me busking and playing in the street and stuff like that was say 15 years ago. Like it took me a long time to have a career. So now that I have one, I'm very grateful, very grateful all the time. The last time we saw each other, I was I was looking it up was the very beginning of 2020. You saying on this song that I think is just like a 10. I've played I've I've played all the time. I play in meetings. I still like love it. And and and I'll play for you later because my assumption is that you probably haven't heard it since. No, I haven't. But it's so good. And what what's so impressive in it is that your performance in a day of demo was like your life depended on it. It seems like you don't phone in anything. No, I can't. Yeah, even like we did a kind of couple of live videos this year. And like my voice is kind of slowly waking up now. Yeah, I can't I can't take it easy for some reason. If you pick any song out of your discography to perform, what song do you perform? I have a song called an Evening I'll Not Forget. I probably always go to that one. Yeah, that feels like the most that feels like the most kind of me song that I've written. And it's just it's sort of, you know, there's not really a hook. It's kind of like a wandering long verse and the music kind of crescendos at one point. But it yeah, it feels like any influence I have like from songwriters to hip hop, it kind of it feels like it captures all that. So I love that. If only there was a guitar right behind you. It stinks on the guitar. If only there was a piano. It's all in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's tell a little bit of your story. Let's go from the beginning. Tell me tell me what day in the life of of of baby Dermot. Well, I was quite lucky because my best friends growing up who are my best friends now. We all kind of lived on different points of the same mountain. So instead of feeling isolated, my best friends were quite close by. So I had this kind of magical childhood where we just cycle around to each other all day and just hang out in each other's houses. How many people are in this clan? Three at that point. And then but the like kind of when we went to school and stuff, there was two more and kind of there's a group of five of us and that's kind of my friend group. Are you guys are you guys on the text chain now? Yeah, every day it's active. How inappropriate is that text? It's pretty bad. I forgot I'd be wrong. What was your household like? My sister played piano brilliantly. And so that was my intro to music. Yeah, my auntie. Did she still play? Yes. We would sing kind of songs like people get ready, Vecassi walk in a Memphis kind of song like piano like nice to sing. Yeah, same. And that's my karaoke song. Right. Yeah. So it was just like it was a lovely intro to music. But I would you know, I would sing like standing behind her and if she turned around, I would stop singing. And if anyone came into the room, I would never sing again. Why? Why were you? I don't know. I feel quite insecure even these days. I have lovely kind of confidence in terms of playing because I know I'm good. But I feel very insecure in other ways. Like I was thinking about this yesterday. Like for example, like say talking about pushing it when I sing and singing quite loud. Like when I analyze that, I think that comes from playing in the street. Because ultimately when you're playing the street, you're trying to get people's attention. So you've got the like capo on the guitar and you're just going up, up, up. Like as loud as you can go. And I think, you know, I was such a fan of artists like Glenn Hansard and I could see the way he would perform and just the fact that it like you said, like it means like you just it like it's do or die every time. And I was I was I'm very drawn to that. And so, so that's the way I would sing. And but yeah, now like I think ultimately it's almost like an insecurity. Do you know what I mean? Like you're trying to get as much attention as you can. It's kind of weird. But your sister got it, but no one else knew that you were doing that you were that I could sing. It was kind of the cliche thing of like back of the car singing and people are kind of like, hang on. Yeah, it's quite loud. Yeah, yeah. I always think about how I think I got a lot of solos in choir growing up because I just can't blend. Right. Like that, you know what I mean? Like it was like, we have to figure out somewhere to put this guy because you can't put him in there because that's going to ruin everything. He's not willing to be part of it. Give him a solo so he stops. Yeah. So I could speak that language. But at home, you know, there's a difference between, you know, playing quietly or maybe quietly, isn't the word loudly, but with no one around is different than, you know, maybe I maybe I should play in front of people. Yeah. What's the difference? What word is that switch? I think I was just quite determined. I think I had this lovely thing like playing football or soccer was like the main focus of my life when I was younger, like from say 10 years old to 18. How good were you? Not that good. I was OK. Like I was good, but it wasn't really like a like a potential career. I don't think it became like and then music kind of popped up when I was sort of 12, 13, 14. And but it was this lovely thing where like I remember playing in the school talent show to about 800 people when I was 11. And then I didn't play to that big a crowd again until I was like 24 or something, you know, like like selling 800 tickets when you don't have a career as hard. So school talent show is actually quite a crazy crowd to play to. And and so but I had this lovely initiation to it because I didn't think it was that important to me yet. So I wasn't intimidated. Does that make sense? Yeah. What did you perform at talent shows? They're Dancing the Moonlight by Ten Lizzie. And when you always, but always, but you know, like the tombo, tombo, tombo, and I would like play that in the guitar. It was horrible. What what music was played in the household? Do you know an Irish songwriter called Paul Brady? What did Paul Brady do? Paul Brady wrote songs for the likes of Tina Turner and stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But in terms of his own music, he's incredible. My dad is a huge fan of his. He's got a song called Nothing but the Same Old Story about Irish people, Irish immigrants in America and how they're everyone just assumes they're in the IRA and stuff like that. Like crazy songs. So good. Yeah, that's a weird thing. Do you feel like you carry around the, you know, the sort of ghosts of Irish past when you are outside of Ireland? Definitely. Yeah. Not like I don't think it necessarily makes a difference how I behave or who I am, but like I'm conscious of it. Definitely. Just like our Irish musical heritage. I think it's a powerful thing. Yeah. It's it's interesting when people don't realize the influence of Irish immigrants on American music that the whole appellation. What you think of as Americana is really Irish music. Certainly influence and like Scottish immigrants as well. And yeah, yeah, I think there's a museum in Ireland called Epic and it's all about like Irish people and how they went all around the world and like sort of just influence things. Like I think there's some mad fact that like I feel like I'm potentially making this up so I might have to cut this out. But you know, like the Luchador fighting masks and I think like an Irish guy designed the first one of those and stuff. Yeah, crazy stuff. Yeah. So you're 18 and you're like I'm done with my my football career. Yeah. Whatever version of that is. Yeah. Yeah. When do you start actually like maybe I should write some poetry. Oh, when I was like 15, I would I was writing songs and stuff. And then where we're in your bedroom. Yeah. And and like Dublin has a lovely kind of I'm not sure about lately. I'm sure it's still the same. But there was some lovely open mic nights where there'd be like 40, 50 people. And there's a really nice way to get to play to people for the first time. A very like supporting and encouraging environment. And so my dad would drop me in and obviously you're not meant to be in the pub. So I would, you know, they would let me in long enough to play three songs and then go home. Yeah. The I hope LA has that still because I think that that's everyone got so used to having TikTok be their open mic night. You know, where they just sort of that's where they they cut their teeth, so to speak. Yeah. And and that wasn't like troubling. I was in I was so confused. I was in Nashville recently and there was a guy playing at an open mic like a writers round. And he introed a song by kind of saying he was like this next song is about such and such. And I guess it did well enough on TikTok for my label to release it or something. And then he started playing it. And I was just like, I didn't realize that was a thing that you would have to reach a certain threshold for a song to even exist, you know, you don't have any of that pressure from, you know, Interscope or your no, no, never like, you know, hey, man, this song's really taken off on TikTok. We should know that's fine. I'm up for that. But also what I'm not up for is if I have a song that I'm like, I love this song. And they're like, no, it hasn't done well enough. And that's crazy. No, and I mean, you know, like, we'll get to funeral in a second. But, you know, like coming out with a song like that for like, here's a new album. And then here's my first single funeral is like either, you know, you have to have like a label that's like, yeah, let's go with that. I mean, because your lead single isn't market tested on TikTok. It's like something that you believe in. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I feel kind of lucky. It's not the word because I think I kind of planned it that way. But I feel quite like I'm pleased about it. We essentially, like any time labels and publishers and whoever started paying attention to me, I didn't sort of, I didn't, I didn't want to do that. Or I at least I postponed it for as long as I possibly could. So then whatever deals I would sign, I had far more leverage because I had played shows here. I played shows in New York. I had played shows like in the UK and Ireland. And where I do feel lucky on and I'm willing to say is like they were selling out. And I was like, oh, sweet. Now I've got a thing to chase. And I would genuinely say like to this day, I see it as like the first show sold out and I'm chasing that still. Like I'm building on that moment. Still. Definitely. Definitely. When you can sell 200 tickets, you're like, oh, shit, like this is the thing now. Yeah, it's a weird high that like you can't, it's like any other drug. It's like, how do you ever match that? Totally. But like the way you talk about TikTok and stuff like that, and there's so many different ways to form a career and kind of succeed. Whatever that means, it's kind of, for me, I'm no good at that. Like if I went into the industry today and they were like, we're thinking about this campaign, I'd be like, okay, cool. Like, the only thing I know how to do is play to people, you know, like and to be in a room. And like, I know if I go to an open mic this evening, there'll be at least a couple of people who are like, shit, man, I feel that, you know, and I know I can have that. So as soon as I started selling tickets, I was like, finally, I can just do this. If you gave advice to that 15 year old kid right now, what would you say how to make it in the music business in 2026? Oh, like if he was starting now, it's hard, right? Yeah. Yeah, like, I don't know how bleak that is, because it's not my experience, so it's hard to say. But I do think, yeah, I don't know. Like if it was me, I don't know, like it's not what you asked me, but like maybe I couldn't sort of have come up the way I did. Crazy. So let's go back to your 15. When you're performing at Open Mic, are you doing covers? Yeah, mixed with my own stuff. Yeah, mixed with my own bad song. What's your first song? I just got lost in the song. It's not that bad for like your first song ever, but it's definitely. How does it go? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Songs I wrote last week. Is that right? Yeah. How do you, how do you remember lyrics? Is it muscle memory or is it? Yeah, they're all in there. Yeah. If I start thinking about it, I'll freak out and then make a mistake. But if I just, if I can just walk on stage, they're all in there somewhere. But you knew how to, you knew what the song was. Yes. Was that the first song that you played for your family? We were like, hey, this is. No, I would never. I don't like my album is coming out in the 27th of March and no one's heard it. I don't play music to people. I don't want the feedback because if they say it's good, I'm like, yeah, I think so too. And if it's bad, that's what Christ is. Yeah, fair enough. Not of it does that good. But when you're 15 years old, somebody's saying like, I'll drive you to Open Mic. Yeah, my dad would go and he would, of course, he would watch it and like he comes to my shows now still. And. But I would never be like, did you think that one was good? Or what do you think? So when you were down with it, was he like, hey, you're pretty good at this? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. What about your sister? Did she support you in it? Yeah, of course. But I don't remember any chats of kind of like, I think I can do this. There was nothing like that. I would just kept playing. So what's the step from I open mics are hard to get into because I'm a child. You know, I'm gonna start busking because that was probably right around that time. Yeah. You know, yeah, exactly. Same time. I think the first time I went was I was 16. Um, what was the corner that you played on? Uh, well, the first place I went, I went to like a sea front, like a small town. And I was just like, oh, this is weird. So then I did the influence again was Landhansard because he left school early. Busking is how he completely figured out how to play to people and all that kind of stuff. So I was like, perfect. That's exactly what I'm going to do. And it's amazing because talking about like it's hard to sell tickets and all that sort of stuff, like you go on the high street in your hometown. It's like, there's thousands of people walking by us all day. It's like in an age of like trying to sort of like get people's attention and make moves is like, you've got people all day long. And if you're good, they will stop and pay attention and they'll be interested and they'll support you and all that type of stuff. So it just felt like a no brainer. Um, and it's amazing because you have all these kind of, you know, like. If your skin isn't taken, if you're not determined, like busking will kind of pull your pants down a bit. Like it's not easy. That's true. Did you bring like a mic and a PA system or are you sitting there with just a open? That was acoustic the first day. Yeah, it was bad. So you have to scream it out. Yeah, it was bad. And then I got an amp. I met an Australian guy called Maliki and he was like a busking genius. He kind of, all his stuff was on this crazy trailer and he would like skateboard into Dublin and yeah, he like, he was, he had this crazy idea of like, and I guess this applies to loads of stuff. He was kind of like, it's like a shopfront. Like I'm trying to get people to be curious before I even pick up the guitar. You know, he was good. I didn't know, cause I was really idealistic. I was kind of like, I want to sit here in a crap chair and have CDs with no artwork on them and I'm good enough that people will be like, I'm going to support him. But like you quickly learn out, definitely helps if I stand up and if the CDs look nice, you know, yeah, branding is a part of it, whether you like it or not. And it's hard. I think people think there was an era when artists didn't have to care about branding. And that's actually not true. Even when it was just radio and it's like, you know, 1920s or, you know, still Louis Armstrong has to be like a brand. And then it's like, once you get to TV, it's like Elvis stills a brand. And it's like you go down and, you know, people think like with modern technology, it's like, well, I don't want to deal with any of that shit. And it's like, yeah, but everyone had to deal with the shit of their time. Of course. And right now that shit is something different. But you can't totally ignore how essential it is to, you know, have a storefront. Totally. Yeah, it's foolish to not kind of adapt. So this Maliki guy, what was his storefront like? It was cool. He played like small sized guitars. I think ukulele sometimes and he would like loop stuff and all that. He was in his bare feet too. He was full kind of Aussie mode. So it was, yeah, it was just he was an interesting guy. But I mean, he would come to Dublin for three months in the summer and just like he'd make pretty wild amount of money for busking. What kind of money did you expect as in busking? Did it pay on a good day? Oh, it was the best. I would kind of like, because it started what I would do again, like being quite naive, I would just play relentlessly for like three hours, like Ben Howard covers and Glenn Hansen and all that type of stuff. And and you would make very little money. And then he was kind of like, well, what you're doing is really stupid. He was like, you should play like a huge song, get a crowd, play a half hour set and then sell CDs and then sit down for 45 minutes, let the crowd like regenerate and then go again. And he's like, you do that as many times as you want. So he was quite clever. Yeah, it keeps you. So. The fact that it's such such great muscle memory to go through that process of repeating your set and doing the whole thing. Oh, totally. You get so good at it. Yeah. But also, like even the idea, the act of kind of playing your last song and then you got your CDs here and I, you know, like some buskers that kind of picked them up and go around to people and be like, would you like CDs? Ba da da. Like, I just can't do that. And I'm like, I would say I'm 100 percent still that person. Like in terms of pushing your stuff is like, no, if it's good. Like someone will, I don't like kind of forcing it. That that era for you of. Buzking where you're you're now putting yourself in front of humans. Yeah. How did that chain of friends? How did they respond to you doing that? Were they supportive? Remember, yeah, always supportive. I think like, do they come and watch you? Yeah. I remember my friend, Ro, he, he came into town and we were like. Eighteen, I guess, or maybe I don't even maybe 21 or something. We had just finished either school or college and he had his job and I was buskin. I mean, I'm sure there must have been times when it was just them chatting and they were like, what is he doing? But they have a side change. They're most of it. But but I never experienced anything other than support, which is magic. But but yeah, I remember like I kind of told Ro. He was kind of like, what kind of money are you making? Buskin and I told him and he was just like, fucking hell, he was like, I'm like, that takes me X amount of time in my job. Yeah, that's crazy. Like and we were like me and him and another friend, we went to Boston, when we were 19 and spent the summer there and I was buskin in Boston as well. And they got jobs in the cinema and they were like doing their thing. And like, you know, it's like, it's like this work visa you get while you're in college and everyone's hungover all the time. And and but he I would busk kind of one day a week because you're literally just trying to buy beers essentially. And and yeah, I just have always been quite jammy in that sense. What did you study in school? Music, I did a classical music degree. What what was your like, what was your favorite part of classical? I didn't like much of it at all. I they didn't I didn't like it didn't suit me. I was I would almost love to go back because it was this crazy caliber of like classical musician and these amazing lectures and stuff. But I was just grumpy like watching Bonny Bear videos. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, it's the music theory classes where I just remember getting an argument with my music theory teacher who would just talk shit about, you know, popular music and whatever it was. And it's like, man, and this I mean this with respect because I have a degree in music, but I used to just say like you're a flattest in a cover band. It's like the world's greatest cover band. Like at least I'm out there trying to write a new song. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and we had there's moments where we would kind of form little bands and stuff and so you would have people from your class playing and technically they'd be insane. Like actually, Thinlyz is a good example because we played Dance in the Moonlight and there was a fellow with us who played the solo and it was just like flawless because you knew what it was meant to be. But if you were like, all right, we're going to jam out the end of the song and play that and he was like, yeah. So what's it? How do you get from? You know, busking is to all right, now I'm going to sell those those tickets. Like what's where do you where do you start selling tickets if you're generally like. Yeah, in terms of how it moved, like. I'll try and tell it like sort of as like succinctly as I can. Basically, there was times when like you could be busking, right? And someone would call me like, hey, I'm a music manager. I'm like, OK, cool. And so you would end up having these meetings with people and you're just like, this person could just be fully insane. But some there'd be little leads here and there. So I remember meeting a guy once and he was like, I'm a music manager in London. Da da da. And I was like, OK, cool, I'll go do that. And and I'd go like hang out with you and potentially work with you and put on a show. And so I'm kind of blurry. Like I would always do my own gigs around Dublin. Like you can always between family and friends and the odd person who actually likes what you're doing. You'll always sell like 150, 200 tickets. So I was always doing like, say, throughout the year, like three or four headline shows in Dublin. And then I think it got to a point that I was like, I'm going to try to do a show in London. And there's a venue called Servant Jazz Quarters. And I think it's literally like 50 people. And so I organized a gig there and went and played it. And I like, you know, I just kind of just to see how it went. And I remember it was one of those shows where you play and then you put your guitar down and then you're in the crowd chatting everybody. And I was talking to the people that were at the gig and multiple people were kind of like, I heard your music yesterday on Spotify. And I had to I saw you at a show, blah, blah, blah. And I was so curious. And then, like I said earlier, it was in the days of me checking stats every single day. So I went home. And I think it was literally like the songs had gone from, say, 10 streams a day. I had three songs out at this point and they had gone from, say, 10 streams a day to like 50,000. Is this like, like, are we in already in 2000? I would say I was like, 22 or three, maybe. I think so. And because what happened was all through college, I was in a band and then that split up. And I had, I had, what was the band called? Shadows and Dust. And I had, it's from Cladiator. But I had, we had been in studios and stuff. And it was that thing of like, work on producers. And again, this comes down to my insecurity because I would be like, all right, I'm going to play this song acoustically. And then next thing you know, there's like a bass part you didn't necessarily write. And there's all these other production elements that aren't improving the song and are kind of dulling its power, I think. And then so when I quit the band, I was like, I'm going to go into studio and have every single part written in my head, like violin part, bass part, piano part. And that's it. Like we're not doing anything else, like nothing. And so I had three songs after rain and evening, I'll not forget. And shelter, I think. And two of them we still play now. And so I uploaded those songs myself. And so these are the ones that people had started hearing literally through like Discover Weekly or something. And so that to me, like truthfully, it's not that exciting. But I would be like, that's the moment I got a career is when people were kind of like, I heard your music yesterday and I was like, oh sweet, now I can build on this. I mean, you're your own record label at that point. Completely. You're your own publisher at that point. Well, that went on for a long time. Yeah. I was like, don't call all day. There's labels and publishers. Well, that's why I was going to that because, you know, that's super, that's a different muscle. That's a different skill set when you start realizing, oh shit, this is now pulling in some money or opportunity. Yeah. How did you learn about the business? Well, I didn't. I kind of, I started getting, and I'd be lying if I knew the figures, but I started getting X amount of streams every month. And I didn't even know that a song could have percentages. I was just like, yeah, of course I wrote it. So that's the way I uploaded it to tunecore. And I was like, I'm the songwriter. I'm the label. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I own the master. Yeah. And so like, I guess it got to the point where I was like, I don't know, maybe like a couple of million streams a month or something. And it's the most successful I've ever felt in my whole life ever because I was sitting at home and I would like refresh like my mom and dad's computer and I would have made some money from these songs. I was like, oh my God, this is like, I can, this is a real thing. And it's that moment where you're like, oh, I'm not a fool anymore. You know? And did your parents feel differently about your career when they could see you refreshing? No, no, to their credit. They never, I was the support. To their credit. Still about they have a career. But so that was the moment that I was kind of like, oh, wow, this thing. And then then it started happening quite like it kind of snowballed quite a lot. It was sort of like my like emails were kind of blown up with like labels and I'm manager and I'm a publisher and I do this and that can we speak on the phone? And so and I felt really, really super, super guarded. And I was kind of like, I don't want to give this job to anybody. So I'm going to deal with all this correspondence and I'm going to get on the phone to them and do all this type of thing. But I like, like I didn't have a clue. I was so naive. And so to be honest, I would look back and say I was quite lucky to not fall into a really bad deal because I was keen, you know, like I was, I was like super eager to succeed. And and in my naivety, I was kind of like, OK, well, if someone's offering me a record deal, that's how you that that's a successful thing. So so I was lucky to kind of avoid some potholes, I'd say. Uh, yeah, it's when people ask me on wherever, whenever somebody asked me my opinion, which is, I guess, pretty rare. But when they do that and they say, like, what's advice to give somebody who's a new artist? I'm always like, learn how you're getting screwed because then you can enjoy the rest of your career. Yes. You know, so it's like you can get trapped into something pretty early on if you don't have representation. Yes. But, you know, you don't fall into one of those. Yeah. Those what did you call it, potholes? Pothole, yeah. So then what like what's how do you get to to, you know, there's a difference between streams and doing well on streams and selling out venues, getting the deal, getting the buzzes becomes something that is hard for one person to control. How do you build out your team? Yeah. So I had somebody who's like, I think like a. Yeah, that felt like kind of reached out to me and was kind of like, I want to sign your album or say I want to sign you to my record, to this record company. This is like major record. I think it was Polydor at the time and I want to then sign you to my publishing company and he was like, I'm flying over to Dublin tomorrow. I want to chat to you and I want to get this done. And like this is like I was like, fantastic. This is amazing. Yeah. And and so met with them, chatted to them that they looked after James Blake at the time. I thought that was really cool. So and then it's interesting. I don't know if this is how it works, but I think he had come in and maybe by kind of poking his head out for me, that maybe spread the word a bit. And then everybody started coming in and then BMG got in touch for publishing. And so I think then he lost interest, but he had put me in touch with a lawyer. So he bailed on any potential thing. And I was kind of sick and by that. And then why were you sick and by because I was just like, oh man, that was the moment that I was going to go from like to like a different level of success that I had never experienced. And like obviously looking back, that's like ridiculous. But but he had put me in touch with a lawyer for the deal he had said he was going to offer. So then when he was gone, ultimately the first member of any kind of team I had was a lawyer. And he said the first thing you need is a manager. So I'm going to put you in touch with all these managers. And so I met managers in London a lot. And it was quite an interesting time because I was I was quite drawn to the idea of like not having a friend do it, but like having a really informal like let's do this together type thing. And I'm glad I didn't because looking back, I'm just like, oh man, like the sort of the knowledge and the skill that managers have to have is insane. So I'm really glad I didn't do that. But so then got a manager. This is all very like compressed. But over the course of a year, I'd say I got a manager. And then to my manager's credit, they were just kind of like, why would you sign a record deal? Like, why would you do that? Like you're getting paid. Not tons, but like enough to survive from your three songs. And then they're like, we should plan some shows. I think we did New York, LA, London. We played babies, all right. New York, played a place called Resident here. I think that was it and did Dublin, of course. And they all sold out real quick. And yeah, that to me is the most exciting time. Like sometimes I see Irish acts now who are like on tour, like doing the van across the country type thing. I'm just like, I tell them that is the best because that's the moment when you see people, I don't know, connecting with a very pure version of yourself. Yeah, I'd say Ample is doing that right now. That's what I send the message to. Well, there you go. Yeah, because they were literally they were doing like they were doing like the chapel in San Francisco, I think. Do they play the troubadour here? I don't know. Something like that. But that type of venue and I'm just like, that is the best. Yeah, when you're outside, like right before you go on stage and you know, the venue is packed and everyone's excited. That's just cool to me. NNPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NNPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress. They go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NNPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. OK, so I use Splice and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice. But if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of, but they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite. Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators. Every time you use Splice's AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now. That you can use where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of the creators and that is Splice. Yeah, it's I wish that it's like when somebody says to you when you're on the come up and they're like, oh, man, you're going to have hits or you're going to sell out this and you kind of want to be like you kind of want to slap them and be like, man, I can't pay for shit. Don't don't tell me that. Yeah, you know, but like people can see it. Yes, when they think they can see it. You know, there are certain people when they say to you like you are going to do fine. Yeah, it's just hard to believe it. Definitely. Yeah, I do feel to some degree that the reason I sent that message shambles is because I feel like that portion of time passed me by a little bit because I was so I was really kind of like, OK, I cool this all out. But say if it's true, but I'm like, I really want to play the L. Ray or somewhere like like I always like I'm thinking about the next thing. And so I feel like that definitely passed me by. And that's why I send those texts because I'm just like having taken every step now up to whatever type of venue. It's not as if like other venues bigger, so I'm having more fun. So that was fun. That is so important to mentor people even when they're, you know, on some level not asking for it right away. Like that's a really classy thing for you to do. No, yeah, just I would like everyone to kind of experience it. Because also, like you say, you never know at what point, like what point you're going to get to. I think about it now. I'm kind of we did a tour last autumn. Very intentionally, small venues, smaller venues like the Orpheum here, like beautiful theaters and. I'm just conscious of like it's no longer like playing to 50,000 people is amazing, but also like what's my favorite version of playing live, you know? Is that my favorite playing to 50,000 people and it's bright outside? Or is it the Orpheum when it's packed in and everyone's excited and sitting there and like hanging on every word? So what was the last time you busked? Oh, what was the last time I busked? Probably not that long ago. Like, do you ever just go and just do it and just see you in the street? I did a thing. We were on tour. With Charm Mendes before my second album came out and we were going to do like 30 something dates and we ended up doing six because he had to take some time. And so we kind of had to scramble to figure out something fun to do. So I went and just played in random places all across America. It was nice. Do you glorify that experience now having done, you know, played for 50,000 people? Yes, but also like it's interesting to me. I think it like the way you say like what's my advice to say 15 year old me or whatever, it's funny, right? Like I can go say, doing those sort of like little activations before my album came out, we would do like we did in Philadelphia and written House Square. And there's really like a lot of people there. And I'm just like to it's interesting to me because I'm just like between busking me and me now, there's no difference. It's just like some shit went well for me. It's like, I know a hundred people at home that are this good. Do you know what I mean? So like it's so important to find your own contentment within your career because it like just some degree, it really is the look of the draw, you know what I mean? And I'm trying not to be cynical, but it's just like the fact that I can go play in a park now and there'll be like maybe a thousand people there are like lots and lots of people we did on Toronto was nuts. And I don't know. This is part of me was like like the fact that if I did that when I was 20, there'd be two people. I'm just I'm very conscious of that. It's just like what are all the things falling into place to make you have a career and not have a career? What is the difference between you and the hundred people at home that are that want to be very like I was very determined to not be restricted to just having a career within Ireland? Because you see that happen quite a bit like artists who can play our arena, which is 13,000 and then go to London and play like 200 people. You do see that and I was very determined to not do that. And so that's why it felt so exciting to come play New York, play LA and play those shows. And I don't mean this in like a careless way or as if like I'm not grateful. But I was kind of like if I can do stuff out there, Ireland's going to be OK. You know, like I can come back and do that. And and put the work in there as well. But like the bigger beast to tackle is definitely the rest of the world. And so and I remember going playing those shows and then I'll never forget. We came back to Dublin and played a festival called Longitude and it was packed and people went nuts. And I was just like, oh man, this is the trust I was hoping for, you know, and the kind of the hometown support that I knew would be there. But just was, you know, I never want to lose that. And so but yeah, I was always determined to get to have a career outside of Ireland. I've always that I would say that was my one thing was like, if I'm playing to a thousand people in Dublin, I want to be playing to a thousand people in London and New York and I don't want it to be this thing of like he plays to X amount at home, but abroad, you can't sell tickets. Totally. What's the progression from that playing those three shows to, you know, power over me? Yeah, I guess I was so. Reluctant. Maybe this is the same as a lot of artists. I was just like even the term like, say, focus track is a very gentle version of like looking for hits, right? But even that, I was like, no. And I was just so resistant to the idea of choruses even. Like the first three songs I uploaded, there's no chorus in any of them. And I remember talking to James in Sir Tomorrow about it and he gave me some feedback on those songs. And he was in fairness. It's crazy to think he and I didn't know him and he gave me this amazing feedback. But he was just like, you shouldn't be resistant to the idea of a hawk. Like you shouldn't like it's not a bad thing for people like a part of a song that people can go back to and warm to and and love. So, so yeah, I mean, thank God for Scott Harris. I met Scott Harris and we we wrote that song together. And I guess, yeah, it was just like, I think so. The first person I ever wrote with was Kerry Willets, who was in a band called Athlete and he works out of London. Yeah, played bass and athlete. But he like just the loveliest approach to making music, like so conscious of who you're trying to be is literally just trying to facilitate what you want to do. And so that was the nicest way to first like write music with somebody because I'd never done that before. And then when Scott, yeah, Scott's just kind of like he just got me into that position where I didn't hate the idea of a chorus. And so yeah. What is the version to choruses? I know that there's this thing that happens for a lot of artists where they want to push back from sort of the songs that like then Lizzie, like lots of hooks crazy. Yeah, like anybody. So why why why is it that people get afraid of hooks? And I think for me, it was like I was obsessed with hip hop around that time and poetry and stuff. And I was like, why would I say that three times? You know what I mean? Like in the story of the song, like, like if me and you were talking, I said the same thing three times, it would be weird. So I would apply that to songs. You should just keep doing this. I would say three times. But if I say three times, what makes a great song? It's an interesting question nowadays, right? When there's a bajillion songs being uploaded every single day is like what's good or even the way I struggle with this sometimes for like, if me and you were in a session today and there was somebody else and I've found this hard sometimes when I write a song and everybody is kind of like, oh, yeah, this is great. I'm just like, how do you like what is the criteria? You know, and I think I'm always for me as opposed to being like, unless it's a song like say Vincent by Don McLean, I'm like, OK, that's just like masterful songwriting. Aside from that, I'm always drawn just to people's expression and people's passion. And that can be I've kind of I realize that's outside of music. That's like into sport, everything like purely just like a determination and a drive and a pureness of heart, I guess, to like do something powerful. And so that's what I look for in songs. And that's why it's kind of not like the hip hop thing. Sometimes people are like, oh, you love that? I'm like, yeah, of course. Like it's like it's storytelling in its purest form to me. I sometimes I find the genre of music I make quite kind of boring because it can be quite sort of not cryptic, but like just inane, I guess. And whereas in hip hop is like a story from start to finish as a pure delivery and passion and all that type of stuff. So what makes the song great? I guess I don't know authenticity and the performance is so important, isn't it? Like the actual like the actual sort of vocal delivery, I think is massive. But then I don't sometimes the thing I found most powerful is like bands like explosions in the sky where I'm just like, oh, man, how does that make me feel the same way lyrics do? But in a far more kind of like weird, physical way, it's crazy. Does melody help or hurt? The using emotion in a song? I think it helps. But I like I remember. So for me, lyrics was the only thing I cared about. I was like, the guitar is purely a way for me to write and to sing. And so I found it insane when people would tell me like, oh, I don't care about lyrics at all, all I care about is the music. And I've kind of realized how important that is. So I'd be quite determined like with my arrangements and the way I put a show together, that if someone comes to my show who doesn't give a shit about lyrics at all, that they still at least enjoy it and appreciate it and respect it. I hate the idea of kind of like, oh, he's got a lyrics, but the show is quite what's the word, like not dynamic that would do my head in. Where did your love of writing come from? Just reading. Like I was obsessed. I would like read a lot when I was a kid. My mom always kind of has an appreciation for literature and would always reading was just a very exciting thing to me. And so it always came from there. Yeah. How did you get into hip hop? And it's not a very Irish art form. Not at all, no. But like, get Richard Dytron was so big, I think it actually was big in Ireland. Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely. But like, I think it was a big like people kind of love that album. Yeah. And I remember Rowe, the same friend I was talking about earlier, he, his brother had get Richard Dytron and yeah, just listen. I don't know. Yeah, just a very kind of physical thing. When I heard it, I was like, this is so good. Yeah. This guy, yeah, there's just, there's an authenticity to rap music when it's good that I sometimes yearn for in songwriting. It's like when I first heard it outnumbered, what I appreciated was that there was this soft rhyme, but still like, you know, it's stuff, it's the kind of rhyming you do when you, when you listen to hip hop, it's not the kind of you do when you listen to musical theater, it's not the kind of you do when you're listening to Americana. It's like it was really soft, but it really, it functions really well. Yeah. You can tell where somebody comes from as a lyricist from the way that they rhyme. Right, right, right. Yeah. And then also you always have to be conscious of not falling into the like trying to sound like a rapper thing, because that's awful. I'm not that, you know. Yeah. But that gets complicated, right? Definitely. But you just have to keep an eye on it. Yeah, I feel like a little alarm goes off my head. Pretty quick. Too much, too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wee, wee, wee. Um, outnumbered is, it becomes like that's like your first number one song in the UK. Yeah. Yeah, I don't even know it. But it was, I would feel like if you were to say like what's your biggest song, I was probably to say that one, I think. That's kind of crazy to go from, you know, you've now done, played, you know, some decent sized venues, but a number one song throughout your home country. That means people recognize you. Yeah. Like my career is kind of weird, though, because. Like. Like I played these venues, say, for example, like I've had so many moments where like, for example, I was playing for a football team in New York a couple of years ago. So I'd see the guys like two or three times a week. And and this guy was like, what do you do? And I said, I play music, blah, blah, blah. And and he was like, do you play shows in New York? I say, yeah, sometimes. And then we were playing Madison Square Garden in like a few months. And I told him and he was like, oh, is that like as part of a big night? Are you supporting somebody? I was like, no, no, it's my gig. That happens to me constantly. So I played these shows on the scale of like someone who's had tons of hits, but I've never had a song go crazy. Never. Are you famous? Within Dublin, maybe. But like, that's why I think like I think about songs and their potential success and all that type of stuff. And maybe it's a careful what you wish for type thing, because like we could do this and I could go walk around to wherever several like all day long. And like no one will talk to me. Why are you walking around silver? I don't know. I'm just saying hypothetically or like anywhere. Of all the places you can go to walk around. But earlier, you said is touring torturous. And I'm just like sometimes, but also it's the best thing in the world for me because I don't have to hide in venues or hotel rooms. I experience everywhere I am. Do you wish that you were more famous? I think I might have done in the past, but not to be more famous, but just purely from the point of view that that would mean my music was doing well. Do you think do you want more hits? Do you want? Yeah, but on my own terms. I don't I'm not trying to like if something works, it works. Exactly. I mean, play Madison Square Garden. Like, why is it that we can listen to a bunch of artists that have a lot of hits that I cannot play Madison Square Garden? That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm so grateful for. I have this career, but also at some point. Like, like, I don't know, you would you would like to. How do I sound like not a knob? You need to. Why can't you sound like a knob? Because why are Irish people so like afraid? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't care about what people think about your songs, but you're going to care about what people say about this next day of it. Yeah, yeah. No, I just think sometimes like. Sometimes like you could bring my name up to musicians and they might be like, oh, yeah, I like stuff, blah, blah, blah, but like I'm at a point where if someone knows who I am musically, I'm not surprised. But if they don't, I'm equally not surprised at all. You know what I mean? And I'm kind of sometimes like my insecurity can kind of come up a bit and I'm kind of like, I wouldn't mind like having a song that like is a big deal. I think Hozier is a lovely example because it's like this music that is clearly so authentic and powerful, but it just goes nuts. Like everyone, huge songs. Joe sitting over there was working with Jimmy Butler, who's like probably a Hall of Fame NBA player and you're his favorite musician. And it's like it's really interesting, you know, Theo Vaughn, like these like there are a lot of people where you're their favorite musician. Just nice people. I find it easier to hang out with athletes than artists. Why? I think there's like built in kindness to athletes, usually. Really? I do. I always think that they're like, yeah, isn't the, isn't the, the cliche is that they'd be really aggressive and not in touch with their feelings. I get you. I do understand that. I think the difference is right. Like if I reached out to an artist, I kind of know who was playing a show tonight. They'd be slow to reply. You might get guestless. It might like, and it might be tricky to organize. Like whereas if you're your butler, gives you tickets like five minutes before the game starts, he'd be texting and being like, are you OK? Or you see it's OK? Like I just, I think it's a different level of like looking out for people. And I think that comes from being a part of a team. Interesting. Yeah. Is that what's most applicable about your football career to your music career? Definitely. I think, I know we've been talking for a bit, but I think the correlations I could go on all day about like your character and who you try and be like, like for me, the most inspiring person in my life growing up was an Irish footballer called Roy Keane. And you ask about like the way I sing and like it's purely watching him like he's got this really famous game he played years ago against Juventus. Where he had gotten a yellow card. So it meant it was a semifinal and it meant he wasn't going to be in the final. And he put in like so I don't know, maybe 60 minutes of the game or something. He knew he wasn't going to be playing in the most important game. But the performance was crazy. And he essentially got the team there. So it was like this incredible act of like sacrifice almost because he knew he wouldn't be part of the next part. But like and then they talked to him about it and he's just like. And sometimes I think people don't understand it, but he said he gets offended when people talk about him in such a complimentary way because he's like this literally. Like what else am I doing if I'm not trying to play like that or apply myself like that? And I think he has a thing in his book from years ago where when he would play a match to say like when he was younger, trying to get spotted and noticed and stuff, he would play a match to say a hundred people or 200 people. And he got he said he developed the skill of creating the atmosphere in his own head. And I think I have that in music. Like if I played to 10 people, like I will just rip it because it means I don't really don't care how many people are there. When Without Fear gets released, it's the number one album. You know, again, in in the UK and Ireland. Is that the point where you made it? Maybe, I don't know. Like we did a lot of stuff. There was some really badass moments that I was able to say I did before my debut album, so it was just like like we would headline arenas and kind of played like this Irish festival that was like quite a massive crowd and it was all pre-album. So that was fun to me. But I don't know momentary made it. I'm not sure. I think like if like really, if I had to hone in on that, I would say that night in London when I played to like 50 people. When. You know, 2020, everyone else sort of slows down and you still continue to release release music throughout while everyone's at home. Was it different releasing music in a vacuum? Definitely. I was it was quite stressful, especially for someone who performs. Yeah, well, like you were talking about when me and you met for the first time. Like that must have been just before I went on tour because we essentially rushed home from tour. We had a show in Detroit and then the next day I think flew home from Chicago because COVID was just kind of out of control. And then but release music into that world. Yeah, it was very strange. I think it was a strange time for artists. We got back quite quick. Like I think our first show back with Nashville. It wasn't that long after COVID. But yeah, that's the thing. I was so like, I don't know. Yeah, like that's been there from the beginning, just like this relentless thing to be like, I will not stop. What do you think about you? You featured on some records during this time that did really well and a totally different genre than it wasn't hip hop. It wasn't what Kevin Gates was, but it wasn't the Medusa song. These songs start to become like pretty significant for songs that are not. You know, they're not like singer songwriter. Totally. I would almost say it's like the further it gets from what I'm doing, the more likely it is that I'll do it. You know what I mean? Like it was miles away. But I remember I got sent that song from Medusa and I was like, yeah, of course. I was saying that. That's a really, in my mind, I was like, I'll sing that. Like I'm drawn to that song. Like I'm far more likely to do that than if someone is like, do you want a feature on this like acoustic thing that you don't really like that much? Do you get me? Yeah, of course. Do people present you songs often? Sometimes, yeah. They going to better days because that's like that's the, you know, one of the biggest songs that you've been on at all. Definitely. But it doesn't come on your first album. It doesn't come on your second album. I hated the idea of it because it felt COVID-y. You know, I just say it's like I hated it. I was here, I think, actually. And I not that I hated the song. I love the song, but I hated the idea that it was like, oh, this is my hopeful COVID anthem. That was gross to me. And then so I released it and it did whatever. And then the first festival back was in Scotland. We played that song and everyone like, you know, it was lovely to see it from people's perspective, like music fans. To them, it's not corny at all. It's like, yeah, we've been like cooped up in our houses for however long. It was a very joyful thing. So all my cynicism kind of went away then. How do you look at it now? Yes, I said like it's to me, it's just a hopeful thing now. Yeah, it kind of I think the main takeaway for me often for my music is for people to kind of feel some kind of hope regardless, like whatever struggles they're going through. And so that song is really like for want of a better term, like on the nose in that sense. So I'm glad it means it's sort of the first sort of like viral song. Really? You know, as far as like, you know, for me. Yeah. Yeah. I think like my like my perspective of my career is like I think I don't have a clue because I like I feel good. I love making music, but like, I don't know. I feel I guess if I was to be honest, I feel very I don't mean this in a bad way, but I'm never like satisfied. You know what I mean? I don't mean that like an inspirational like I always have to hustle type thing. It's just like I don't feel settled at all. There's always stuff you want to do. You know what I mean? When do you meet your wife? Oh, I would have been like eight years old, probably. What? Yeah, we know each other that long. We went to school together. That's crazy. Did you know? Did you know at eight? No. Like at what age? You I mean, oh, what is I know? Eh. I don't know. I already twenties, probably. Does she come with you throughout like all the tours and all the stuff? Yeah, but also has done it now to the extent that and. You know, dressing rooms and sort of Berlin, like I said, just like, all right, cool. I might rather be at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, now it's a different thing too. Yeah, of course. Do you feel like that? You know, being in a stable relationship for that long. When everyone else is talking about heartbreak and talking about all these different things, did did you find that to be an advantage to to be in a stable relationship? Yeah. You know what? I like. Well, definitely. But also. Like sometimes I would hate for someone to think. Like if I write a song about losing somebody or missing somebody or whatever kind of heartbreak, I would hate for something to think I just came up with that song because I think it's clever. And and that's not my lived experience. I think one thing I always do is kind of like and I find it to be quite a powerful thought like talking about my close friends and my family and all that sort of stuff. Like I'm the one out of those 20 people that has the guitar and goes and sings to people. But we all have these lived experiences and we all have heartbreak and grief and all these sorts of things. So it's like, am I just like I'm kind of the town crier for everybody I care about? You get me? So like I sometimes I see it that way. So. Like actually so often I'll have songs that I'm not singing about myself. I'll be singing about my sister or my mom or all like that. And it in ways makes it, to be honest, a lot more powerful for me because I have all these people with me essentially on stage. That's a beautiful thought. Is that because people in Ireland hide their feelings? I don't think they hide their feelings. It's just that like I think they don't have that outlet. You know, very few people have that outlet. I take it for granted. Definitely. I don't know who I'd be if I didn't get to kind of like sing and have that kind of relief. Yeah. When Saundra comes out, it's another number one album through the UK and Ireland. Is it easy? What do you mean? Making hits. Oh, making hit albums. I wouldn't say it's easy, you know, but but not for musical reasons. It's more life like, you know, like it gets blurry and you're kind of away all the time. And I don't know. I think there's parts of it are easy and there's parts of it are mega difficult, I think, but I never I never really faltered. You know, I think it's very important to kind of think about like I'm not trying to be around for two albums, you know, like trying to think about like 10 years from now, what am I doing and what does that project look like? And I think for me as well at the beginning of my career, I said one of the most important things is like playing to the same capacities in different cities outside of your home. But a huge thing for me, what used to break my heart was when you go see somebody and the crowd do not care until they play that song, you know. And I remember, I don't know if you are aware of an Irish band called Villagers. They won the Mercury like a while back in the beautiful, beautiful music. But I went to see them in Dublin, played like 1200 people, me and my dad went. And like from the moment they began, the crowd was just locked in. So attentive. And I remember being at that and being like, this is what I want. Like I want I want sort of just every single song, people kind of paying attention to it and and seeing it for what it's worth as opposed to being like, I love this one. I love this one and I'm going to go to the bar now. I hate that it's a killer. They love the artist. Yeah. And just yeah, I want to pay attention to the whole show. It's like it's yeah. So that like talking my power over me, like I resisted that for so long. Because I was terrified of the idea that I would play a show and people wouldn't care until I played that song, terrified of it. And but then I have this ambition where I want to play arenas and stadiums. So you have to manage that the whole time and keep a really close eye on it. I think yeah, there's a band that we know that they wrote on the entire first album. And over time, they started taking outside songs because they just want to make sure that when they played arenas that everyone was singing every single song. It was like this that battle of like what's more important in some capacity, like how willing are you to listen to ideas that other people started? Yeah. You know, did you do you ever take outside ideas? No, I never have. No, you kind of don't need to. I guess that yeah. And also just I can't imagine touring something that ultimately if I break it down, I don't care about, you know, have you ever written for someone else? No, I never have. I would like to do that. I'd like to inhabit someone else's feelings for once. I mean, if you're the town crier, that's what it is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it would depend, though. From your point of view, like I would need to if I met somebody and I didn't like them, I would have to call it. Yeah, well, I did. I'd stay there for three weeks until we had the right thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's like a fine line in those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah, you get to a point where you can work with people you like. That's obviously like that's the dream as a songwriter. Yeah. You know, but, you know, I don't know, I like a lot of people. Of course. And everyone. Oh, mostly. You know what I mean? So like you go in a session and you're like, what's going on? You're like, oh, that's fascinating. Let's write that. Like, let's dig deep. What does that mean? And how do we like, you know, Scott, Harrison, I share a lot of the same philosophy melodically on stuff. It's like, how do you tell the story? But how do you also engage an audience and make sure that you say the chorus three times and it isn't boring on the third time? You know, of course, you get into some of that. You know, your job is sort of to play the middleman between, you know, the artist and the audience or the artist and the label or the artist and whoever. And you're trying to like, at least be somewhat conscious of what makes it, you know, a great song. Exactly. And I think for someone like me, it's so beneficial to have someone like yourself or Scott because it's just another ear, isn't it? And it's like a very accomplished and like just, yeah, like any way like, you know what it's going to sound like to people. Whereas for me, I'm just like, I like this idea. Do you get demoed as? Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, quite a bit. How do you deal with that? I, you know, like I like to kind of. I kind of certainly on the album that's coming, I didn't sing the songs that many times. I was like, all right, that's it. So does that count as combating demo? I just slightly as in like, it stops me from being like, OK, I need to do this 20 more times and. When you do albums, like they're not, they're not like. They're not like 40 song albums. No, they're like, do you write? Does every song you write make an album? No, certainly not. But this time, I would say there's only like five or six songs that kind of fall by the wayside, which is OK. Sounded like a lot of songs. Yeah. But I don't think that comes as a surprise to anybody. Like that was definitely a point where I was like just tunnel vision of this, not to my benefit. I wasn't here. But I wouldn't say so. Like for me, I think sometimes I feel like there's two tears of writing a song. You know what I mean? I mean, you could go in and write a song and be like, oh, my God, this could be enormous. This is what a thing, right? Like what a beautiful melody. What a da da da. But then. Then it kind of I have to take other boxes from like, well, does this mean a lot to me? Like, does it do that musical thing where I kind of get a feeling inside that is unexplainable? And so if it doesn't do that, then to me, it loses an awful lot of its value. I've had a lot of songs where people are kind of like, this is amazing. This could be huge. Da da da. And I'm like, OK, cool, but it just it doesn't. As someone who tours a lot, I'm like, I can't see myself doing that. In the last couple of years when you had, you know, don't forget me, Blossom, Sunday, Lucky, Lessons, Lemmian, you know, these are all singles that that did really well, but they didn't necessarily match the numbers that you had in previous in like better days. Gotcha. Yeah, like I speak about that time as not negative, but like as in like quite a blurry time, but like songs like Blossom, like fucking love that song. Well, that's what I was going to say. It's like, you know, we. Last couple of days going through my my dermat phase, because I try to like make sure I know what I'm talking about. And it's like, yeah, those songs are great. Totally. And so but then there's so much more play, isn't there? Like I like two years ago, I kind of took a full year away from touring and doing anything really. And it was the first time I'd ever done that. And so like a huge amount of this, of course, the music is always the most important thing. But there's so much about like where you're positioned and have you like, like, have you kind of released and released and promoted and promoted to the point that people are just sick of your face and sick of your voice because it's got to be a thing. So like, I think, yeah, I think if I. Got like I finished a tour in Australia, I think Lace 24, maybe or 23. And it was to me, that was like the first time I was taking a long break after that tour. And if I'd released the best song of my whole life after that, I don't think it would have done anything. Yeah, it's crazy. I people had enough, you know, like you I think nowadays you pelt people, you know, it's too much. So I think it's quite it's quite what's the word, like endearing to people now, if someone actually just does it in a tasteful way as opposed to like shoving it, you know. Yeah. I mean, that's the being a knob. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's your knob meter. Taking a year off was that like, you know, it's I loved COVID because it forced me to take a year off in many ways, you know, it's like my wife got pregnant and it was like it was during a time when everyone else was taking time off or seemed that way. Yeah. And so I just like, well, I'm going to kind of like generally, I mean, time off for me is like more time off than I normally would take. I get you. Yeah. Yeah. Did you feel the itch during that during that out during that year? Or was it was there a part of you that's like, oh, I don't ever need to go back? A little bit of that. Yeah. So what made you which I would never like I never entertained that idea realistically, but I definitely was like, I don't miss it one bit. There was a few times like artists will come through Dublin and I would jump on like Nile Horan. I jumped on stage with him for a song and even being backstage and so I was like, I don't miss this at all at all. Do you miss it now? Are you excited? Yeah. Oh, no, I'm excited. And I think it's set up in such a way now it's like a healthier touring environment and it'll all be brilliant. And yeah, but no, that year. I think, you know, I get the edge regardless. Like sitting at home doing nothing for too long. I kind of do stress, but I didn't get the edge to be backstage. Funerals are a really good song. Thank you very much. Thank you. I feel excited. I hope so. It's fun. And then when you play it live, it has this funny kind of bluesy thing that isn't necessarily on the record. It's fun. Why? Why is it different when you think it's a little bit of a little live? OK. Yeah. All right, let's go over to some rapid fire questions. Oh, OK. What's a track that you released that should have been a hit and wasn't? Dancing on the Red Skies 100 percent. You don't even know it. You didn't even flinch. I know. I don't know that one. No, that's OK. But it's like I remember signing an indiscope in that song and it was I can't remember someone in Indiscope said to my manager, they were like, this song is like a Grammy worthy song. And I was like, OK, cool. But yeah, it's just like a song that fans like. Can you play it? What do you mean? No. Well, I can. Yeah. But I'm not going to do that. I can't I can't say a song was deemed Grammy worthy. Listen to this. Yeah. One of these days, I'm going to get you to play. What's the opposite? What's a track that that was really successful that you were like? Well, that's a surprise. A surprise. I think I'm always surprised a little bit. Giants is one that I don't. And that was a lead single. And then Irish people love it. And I feel bad because kids like it and stuff. And then kids come out to the big shows and then their parents give out to me on Instagram because I didn't play it. Why don't you play it? I don't want to. I that's another thing. What is it about that song? That's another thing I'm kind of like. That's why I feel so proud of my career, because I just I don't feel like I have to do anything. It's amazing. Like if I feel angry, I can play an angry show. Do you get me? And if I feel joyful, I can have a very happy show. You know, I can kind of do whatever I want. It's lovely. Yeah. That that also is like what is what a success story that is. Exactly. That is that is the dream scenario as an artist. And sweatpants on stage. That's the dream. That's what that you wear. That's my main achievement all the time. It's great. Do you feel like you have to play the game or is that the game? There's some pretty cool sweatpants. It doesn't have to feel like you're kind of at home. Yeah, it's really funny. My sweatpants all have like food on it because I'm holding two children that are like trying to. Yeah. So like are you releasing any songs on this album that are written to your daughter? Yeah, of course, naturally. Yeah, I think you know, you're right about love now. It just means different things in your mind. Not on the nose, not directly. No, I would never do that. That would be crap. Do you if she wanted to be a musician, would you let her? I don't know. I've thought about this quite a bit. I would obviously let her. That's crazy. I feel like I've pondered way too long over that. Would I let her do what she wants to do? That's really funny. Would I would I be concerned? I don't know. Probably a bit. Yeah, it's hard. What if she wanted to be a footballer all day long? Yes, please. Like is that easier? That's a dream. Yeah, I would be that parent who has to like tape their mouth on the sideline. Yeah, I'd be too excited. Yeah, who is that guy? That guy is so annoying. He sings loud in the background. You should hear him say you think that's loud. Who's the best artist in Ireland right now? The hosier probably. Is that like a bad answer? I think that's kind of he's amazing. Yeah, why did you question that? Just because there's so many up and coming people that I could kind of shout about. But if I was to like if there's somebody that I kind of who kind of had massive success before me and sets an example, I just think he's pretty class. Are you guys friends? Oh, yeah, a few times. I just feel like that there's must be also an Irish chain of like Irish superstar musicians you got, you know, like, you know, Bono and the script. And yes, I don't know. Not a bad band more than just like everybody on the text chain being like, hey, group chat. What do you guys have coming out? No, yeah, I would like in terms of like current musicians, I just think he's fantastic. Why does Ireland produce such great artists? A lot of hurt for centuries in the country where music was like a form of kind of solace and comfort for people. I think it's cherished within. I think from that, you know, like hundreds of years ago, people would kind of gather around a fireplace and just listen to people sing. And and I think from that music is cherished within society and musicians are supported and so I think that goes a long way. How often do you drink Guinness? Quite a bit like a fair bit. Not when I travel, not out here. LA Guinness must be fucking crap. Because it's just bad. If I didn't taste tester between LA Guinness and you know, you would know. Yeah. Yeah. In New York, it can be OK. This place is where it can be OK. London as well, but it is different outside of Ireland. What's your Irish whiskey? Red breast. Do you like whiskey? Yeah. Yeah. Red breast is beautiful. There's a bunch of good whiskey, of course. And even some Irish whiskey. Oh, you have red breast. Yeah, I got you. OK, cool. Why, you want some right now? No, it acted. I thought it seemed as if you had an urge. This is going to get weird. We probably should have started the interview. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. When are you going to busk next? Why is busk is a terrible word? Can we call it? It's just I sometimes wonder if people don't know what it means. But apparently they do. What is busking? It's what you mean, playing in the street. When would I do it next? I like the idea of doing it, but I like the idea of not. I've definitely grown. Like I'm not trying to do the thing of like, I'm at this location. Come like, I'm going to play some songs. I'm kind of done with that. I did a lot of that. So I'm not trying to do that anymore. I would like to just set up in like Washington Square Park and play for what? Are you playing on a football team right now? No, I played for a team at home called Kremlin and I miss it dearly. I think I'm a far better person when I'm playing football regularly. Definitely. Whatever feeling everybody thinks I get from music, it's actually I get it from football. I play hockey and there's a group of music industry people that play and it's it's the best, man. It's like it's my it's my version of that. It's like you can't think about anything else, you know, or, you know, it's the one time I might just leave you definitely because even on stage I'm thinking about like, oh, did I do this? Am I kind of like, yeah. Who's the best? Yeah, close, but I and that's how it ends. Just don't say anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who are the who's the best Irish songwriter of all time? Oh, God, I get in trouble here. I feel like Van Morrison should be up there. Yeah, the guy called Luke Kelly, who's like a very famous Irish folk singer. Who a lot of people, as soon as they hear that question, his name would pop into their head. For me, like in terms of my own tastes, I answered so good. So good. His voice scares me like as a loud singer and as powerful. I just want to see him and say, how does he do that? Yeah, it's like you watch and you're like, oh, I can do that. And then you like it's loud and he never like, you know, you see anybody pushing it when they see him, they tilt their head back. He's always just like, it's crazy. Do you wish you had a different career than the one you have? No, not at all. I never wish for that. But if I could click my fingers and be an athlete, I would do that. So I don't actively wish for it. But if that was a crazy sort of genie type situation, I would say, well, thank you for doing this podcast. Good chat. I liked it. Yeah, man. I mean, I said it early on and I'll play it for you when we're done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I literally hear your voice all the time because of that one song. So you're like constantly in my orbit. And one of the cool things about music and demos that you love is like the best part of music for me is listening to like for releasing music is the demo phase when you're like, I know something you don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and to like have stuff that you can go and listen to because you love it. Because you were part of it that one day, whatever the thing was. It's like it's some it's such an intangible. And it's kind of a beautiful thing that, you know, probably saw you around the Brits, maybe at the Brits, maybe. I think so. Yeah, I think so. You know, and it's like to go from like an entire pandemic and, you know, children and other shit and then be sitting here and knowing that the whole through line, I've had a song that I've listened to countless times because you sing this shit out of it. Yeah. And did you like it then? I loved it then. Really? But if there's like if I. I get to, you know, I don't know if other people will ever get to hear it, but I can say thank you for giving me a song that I get that I choose to listen to. That's the nicest compliment I could ever give somebody. Nice. I'm very glad it kind of feels that way. I'm excited to hear it again. And there you go. Yeah.