Ep 148: JoeBen Bevirt, Founder & CEO of Joby Aviation — Flying Cars Have Arrived

We are now in the next age of aviation the electric age of aviation You now have your first FAA confirming aircraft in flight was a game changer We've agreed with the FAA on every detail of the design not just testing we can buy a ride exactly What's the timing on this as soon as the end of this year? What do you need for it to land Texas is one of the places that's super flexible all you need is the permission to the landowner I have asked you letting him fly right now up to 200 miles an hour I love it I think it's really important to talk about what a game changer AI is you take one of the Greatest aerodynamic minds on the planet and you enable him with something that makes him 10x is productive the benefits Compound in a crazy way. This is the most profound technology. I think in the history of humanity Joe Ben from Joby Aviation is building the next great American aviation company last time he was on the show a year ago We were talking about the vision now. We're talking about the execution We just saw it fly past the Golden Gate Bridge a government program put forward by the current administration Means that we're gonna see his planes flying across the country. These are electric vertical takeoff and landing machines There are a hundred times quieter than a helicopter. They're much cheaper and much safer Eventually, we're gonna have probably millions of things like this all around the country getting people around everywhere From rural to the city to skip your commute to get to the airport. He has new technologies He's working on he can make aviation 10 times cheaper. He's already proving out new hydrogen technologies That mean you can fly much farther with these at much lower costs It sounds like I'm gonna be flying one in Texas within the next year. What are you gonna be on one? Let's hear from Joe Ben welcome to the American optimist really excited to have Joe Ben back with us the founder and CEO Joby Aviation thanks for joining. Thank you so much for inviting me and wonderful to be with you You know, it's great to have you back on the show last summer We talked about your vision and the conviction behind Joby now. We're talking about execution. I'm impatient I want a flying car to take me places around especially around Texas. I think that'll be there first Texas can be amazing I think Texas will be first. I think California will eventually catch up. You did just fly it around the Golden Gate Bridge I think just recently catch us up to speed. What's happened over the past year? It's been an incredible year across so many different dimensions of the business as you hit on the name of the game is really ramping Manufacturing we've made capital investments to ramp from one to two aircraft a month and now two to four aircraft month and We're so excited about What this new technology is gonna bring as you mentioned we flew from the Golden Gate Bridge We acquired blades passenger business So is the helicopter service that operate in New York and really does a great job of previewing the future that we're bringing We're so excited to be celebrating the nation's 250th anniversary and to be doing an electric skies tour Where we extend what we did here in San Francisco to communities across the country can't wait to come to Texas So remind us for the audience here like you bought the helicopter company You're gonna replace it eventually with all Joby's like why why do that? Why are these better? How do they compare to helicopters who can use them at the core? This is an electric aircraft that can take off and land like a helicopter But it has a wing and so it can transition and fly on that wing that makes it more efficient And it makes it quieter the acoustics are critical to What we're trying to build we want a vertical takeoff landing aircraft that you can land as close to the communities That you're looking to serve and so that's one of the reasons why states like Texas are such a game-changer And we can't wait to bring the service there And we say it's like about a hundred times quieter is that is that approximately how you measure it? That's right, and they how much cheaper is it than a helicopter like at scale? What should these costs so with electric propulsion you? Remove the cost of the fuel and then you dramatically reduce the maintenance You've seen this play out in electric cars where the maintenance profile on electric cars dramatically different than than a combustion car and so you couple those two pieces together and And you layer redundancy across every single system on the aircraft instead of a helicopter with hundreds of single points of failure On the rotor and the tail rotor Yes terrifying on those things you see a family and over near the Statue of Liberty the thing comes off and there's no backup and We have six propulsion stations and each of those propulsion stations is driven by two separate motors two separate battery packs So it's layer on layer redundancy across all the systems in the aircraft So one of the rotors could fail two of the rotors could fail a battery could fail like God forbid and you'd still still be okay exactly So safer cheaper We're gonna need more than four a month I mean I assume we're gonna need like a thousand a month at some point I guess that would require a lot of people actually ask me if I'm it's I don't know what's assets about like the capital needed Like how do we think about this? It just once it starts working. It's just gonna be worth a lot more and you raise more capital How do you think about that? So we've been very fortunate to have incredible manufacturing partners and we're really Excited to say there's a really big partner on this. Yeah, I thought it's one of our most significant investors and we chose Toyota early on one because the Toyota family has dreamt about building aircraft for daily transportation dating all the way back to the 1930s Wow to Toyota is known around the world for the quality and the reliability With which they build I guess the way manufacturing works is that once you can do four months And it's like much much cheaper to do eight a month to sixteen a month like these things these things tend to scale I get a lot cheaper as you go Yeah, we want to we want to double and double and double and double and pretty soon you get to some big numbers How many do you need? Like let's just say like in Austin, Texas We're gonna roll it out and I'm you know a lot of people I know would probably want to fly over the traffic and it's probably useful for the hospital and to have more is probably useful There's a river as you can instead of having to drive all the way the bridge use hopper over the river Like how many does an area like that eventually use it? I'd be hundreds I'd imagine thousands and so I think this is one of the areas where the autonomy systems were building we have we have a software stack called super pilot and as you want to scale from Hundreds in a community to thousands and then tens of thousands you really want to do that with with autonomy I think this is another area where the administration and The FAA the DOT are really leaning in to look at how do we make our airspace safer and How do we increase the capacity of it? The Secretary of Transportation has just been an absolutely incredible proponent on this and is making the right investments to Scale to this next next stage of transportation So let's talk about that You now have your first FAA confirming aircraft in flight which means you actually have something flying is confirming with them You're making one that the pots are actually gonna fly on I think it's that this the way this works right you have to get their pilots to fly your thing Hopefully in the next year Exactly, so it's a game changer. Yeah, there's a moment. We've been working for more than a decade To get to the point where we have designs where we've agreed with the FAA on every detail of the design the FAA designated engineering representatives have signed off on the Each of those drawings before we start making them and then the designated airworthiness represented DAR Signs off as those parts are getting manufactured Then the full aircraft comes together and we now begin flying it first step is Joby pilots fly that aircraft In parallel we have our testing teams. We built a very vertically integrated company We have an incredible testing teams. We're testing all the components and systems on the ground When that testing is complete and the Joby pilots have completed their testing then the FAA pilots get on board and begin doing for credit Flight testing, which is the last step before type certification Amazing and so you're very happy with a lot of the way the regulation in the industry is being pushed forward by this administration I guess the White House is pushing for something called the EV tall integration pilot program is the EIPP Tell us about that it massively accelerates this new industry And so we have a whole bunch of companies here in the US who are leading the world from a technology standpoint and It is crucial That we're accelerating on a regulatory standpoint as well And so we're very very grateful for the lean-in from the administration from the DOT and from the FAA they put this through in record time and recently The they announced the winners. So basically what happened was that dozens of states And collections of states applied for this program said we want to be some of the first communities in the country to Begin using this next generation of technology the winners of that were announced there were seven program seven Consortiums that were selected as winners. Jobe was part of five of those and so there's going to be 12 states Across the country where we're going to be able to test these next generation technologies both on our air taxi on Superpilot and on our advanced propulsion systems And does that mean you'll literally be flying these new Jobe things along with the FAA pilots on them You'll be flying them with your pilots in these states testing them not just testing but also We can be combined exactly what's the timing on this as soon as the end of this year? Amazing so so in 2027 you're telling me I'm gonna look at there's a list of states I have here. I don't have all all dozen of them But Texas is one of the ones on this Arizona, Florida, Idaho, New Jersey, New York surprisingly I wouldn't think of them as a forward-thinking state North, you know, Oklahoma, Utah. It's pretty cool So so people in those states are gonna be able to actually pay to use Jobe Maybe to go to the airport we're gonna be rolling it across out both for passenger transport, but also we'll be testing the the connectivity between rural and urban and using this for emergency purposes for things like wildfire detection for Whole breadth of different use so well you'd maybe go to your ranch with this thing Wouldn't that be awesome? What do you need to for it to land like how much space do you need to clear just like a helicopter pad type equivalent? You need to have a pad gonna be a big clear dirt thing like what's gonna be the rule? Yeah, it's super flexible and one of the incredible things like as I talked about with Texas Texas is one of the places that's that's super flexible all you need is the the permission of the landowner Really, I mean I assume some HOA's are gonna ban it But as long as you're not in an HOA that bans it you could theoretically land in your backyard But this is where the acoustics are so vitally important Yeah, a lot of them will maybe change their mind when they hear how quiet it is exactly, you know We we what we're seeing is lots of developers are seeing this as an asset where if they have a Vertiport in in their neighborhood the the houses that they're building or the The commercial property they're building is gonna be more valuable because it connects this it connects into this new network My friends actually we have developments. I've introduced you guys. I wanted to push you on this We're gonna do it on the air like like if you wanted to like as a developer or even as a homeowner set up a place Where these things can land like I guess there's not much you need to do You just you just need to have a big enough safe enough landing pad and then you eventually you guys will be allowed You think you're gonna put out some guidelines or something for people? Again, it's it's quite straightforward. We have a whole infrastructure team We would love to engage with all the developers out there We want to the the faster we can propagate to take off and landing locations the faster we can rent manufacturing and tell me about the charging because you're gonna want to you don't need a charger at every location obviously this thing has enough charge to Go a bunch around the city and then go charge with plenty left over But event you are gonna want to have some places with chargers spread around the city if someone wants to build a charger on the Land can they do that or you're gonna want to do them all yourself? How you thinking about this? Absolutely, so we we open sourced our charging standard and so anybody can build a charger in addition We're we're deploying our chargers to All the locations where people want to build them and imagine you know just want like a random person doing a charger He don't know because maybe they and charge one of your things wrong or something and cause a problem I They're the chargers are really well-designed and so it's their careers are yours are safe But like what if like some random guy does it wrong, you know, you probably have to have certified or something We figure it out. Well, we will cross that bridge. Yeah, I figure this out. I want to put these in no I know I know we could we could put chargers in for you I love it. I love it. We got to get a little click on the website to click so we could do it So this vertebrate is be a vertebrate network basically it's gonna start going everywhere I mean this is a natural network effect sort of right because once you get enough of these places like then it's just more and more People don't want to use it it exactly and that's what's so powerful But aviation is the the n plus one every time you build an additional node on the network It's it increases the value of the network exponentially and in Austin We have all these places like east towards Bastrop where Elon's built all this stuff and we have campus there for you a tx and for me That's a quite a long drive from the West. I'm very excited to get these things. Let's do it. All right All right, maybe we do one of the early Austin flights. We got it. We have to agree on this Let's let's talk a little bit about about AI and autonomy So you're saying like at scale if you have thousands or tens of thousands of these at some point Enough pilots would become a blocker and you're gonna want to like legalize autonomy. That's probably not a focus I assume the next couple years, but but how are you thinking about AI in general in your operations and you know How does it how does this scale? Yeah, so let's let's take the autonomous aircraft and and and the autonomy systems that is a Absolute game changer Whether that's on the safety side whether that's on the productivity and efficiency side Really really excited and again the the work that's happening on airspace from the administration From the DOT and from the FA is absolutely phenomenal That's laying the foundation for a really really exciting new feature with the EIPP You're gonna see a lot of that start getting tested. So they're gonna start testing autonomy in addition to the pilots flying it for Certain of these use cases. That's why having all those 12 states is Absolutely fantastic. So we're gonna see This is fast-forwarding this really fantastic future all across the country So that's that's on on autonomy and in fact over the last two days I was at NVIDIA's GTC conference and video is an incredible partner they've put invested Vast sums of both People hours into building this really safe autonomy stack that they're using that for autonomous driving using that for robotics and We're able to layer on top of that for all the work we're doing For autonomous aircraft. So this is really fantastic Incredible partner very grateful for all the work and I mean and then they've been Working on this for for more than a decade. So you think they're actually in that therefore being in video chips potentially in the Jobi aviation. Oh, absolutely. We've been we've been partnered with them for many years and we're using the the latest generation of Of their autonomous chipsets very cool So each of these things will have these chipsets and I guess you want that for safety anyway If your pilot somehow has a problem, you're gonna want the autonomy back up either if you didn't have a pilot I assume the perfect initial use case. Yeah, and then eventually it's like you Maybe you don't actually need the pilot right now by law you do we got we go figure that out I guess you're gonna have to train a bunch of pilots to start though And I guess maybe there's some things you're gonna want to hopefully have a bunch of pilots for so so how's that work? Is this awkward like we're gonna have autonomy, but also please come learn to be a pilot for us for thousands of pilots How are you thinking about that? There there is an insatiable demand for pilots across the aviation ecosystem today just everywhere and So we have built something called the Jobi Academy where we are training training pilots we've taken delivery of Our first simulator which we developed in partnership with CA CA is the leader in flight simulators This is an incredible experience where you get in and it feels like you're flying here You know cockpit that has the exactly the same avionics Oh, well, so you actually feel like you're sitting in in a jobi absolutely and you've got the displays and It looks like just like a flight simulator that you'd learn to fly a Boeing or Airbus Aircraft in so these are the same Same pedigree of your practice crashing it and see what happens not allowed Not allowed flight controls. This is what I always did as a kid on these simulators. Is that weird? No, the one of the really cool things about our aircraft is because of fly bar you can take your hands off the controls and the aircraft maintains Maintains the attitude you can get into the simulator and you can fly the aircraft flawlessly the first flight Hundreds of people or thousands of people have done it now. It's pretty easy to do. It's super easy to fly So if people are interested in learning to fly they should go to Joby Joby Academy calm we would love to have them. This is gonna be a fantastic opportunity to Get to be part of of this next stage of aviation and these things can go like like How fast you letting them fly right now when they will up to 200 miles an hour really it's gonna be up 200 miles an hour I love it. That's pretty fast. It is it and it's point-to-point, right? Yeah, so no, of course You're not you're not going over the road system. You're going directly as it does it as a crow flies as they say it's You know being able to take a Trip that that you know takes you half an hour an hour on the ground and turn into a five or ten minute trip You know Sometimes sometimes you're replacing a two-hour trip because you got traffic No, of course so you can fly over you see the traffic jam you get a little shot in Freud, right? And just go right by it. It's pretty awesome So I mean if you were to train yourself like could you actually then just like fly yourself? I guess places or how about work? I mean, you know, because it's that's what I'm getting excited about. Yeah, I You know, I came over from from Santa Cruz and if I if I could have been here That there wasn't the 237 is that there's a what is it 680? What's the what's that road there? I forget 17 17 That's right. It's been a while. See I'm in Texas. I'm Texas now So, so yeah, the 17 is probably a lot faster just to hop over the hill. It's a pretty hill 10 10 10 minute trip There's probably plenty of room by my pool exactly next time we have to do one of these episodes where we get you landing somehow I don't know the woodside might not allow it They're like the it's like always like the last places to allow things It's like these little communists like strongholds of California. I don't know. We'll see we'll see well We can hope my bias was always that even though it's really quiet You can still sort of hear it if you're a neighbor So if you don't like a tall building you couldn't hear it on top of a tall building Shouldn't we just build at one tall building per nice neighborhood? There wouldn't that make sense Landing on rooftops is a fantastic opportunity Especially if it's like you know like one building where you have like housing for all the staff in the neighborhood for a nice neighborhood And then they can land on the top. The tall buildings got nice views exactly some people pay premium prices for exactly houses That's true and woodside you have a woodside penthouse. That's you never know. You know, there's a few other exciting developments I want to ask about I think like it leaked there's like hybrid aircraft for defense purposes You guys announced the fact that it's hybrid aircraft something about hydrogen is leaking out in public that is like what can you tell us? so the work that we've we've been doing on both the the hybrid aircraft we flew a hydrogen electric version of our VTOL aircraft more than 500 miles and And then you know, we have some really excited exciting advanced research programs that have incredible applications for for both commercial and defense applications and And we think that that hydrogen is a game changer across the the aviation ecosystem It's three times the specific energy of jet fuel and with fuel cells we can convert that into propulsion twice as efficiently This is fuel cells. It's not Hindenburg hydrogen. Correct Liquid hydrogen is liquid. So it's not not as explicit cryogenic It's you keep it really cold. Yeah So if like you're bringing out of power, then it'd be bad Well, no, so it's it's in a it's in a tour. You can think about this like, you know, what's what's on Starship? Got it. Got it. And and and so it's there. There's not there haven't really been major accidents with this Is it safe? This is a very safe technology. Yeah, it's been deployed across Lots of applications for ground transportation and sea transportation We have matured that technology and we're using it for aviation Aviation is the best use because hydrogen is so light So hydrocarbons are like change of carbon and hydrogen on them and they're pretty efficient and pretty pretty light for the power They have like how much more efficient per per weight is your hydrogen fuel cells than than the fuel three times lighter The hydrogen is three times lighter jet fuel. Yep, and then we can convert it into propulsion twice as efficiently So you get a six X six X and so if you want to build an aircraft that flies long distances That's why that's why I think I want to try to think a much better deal It's why aren't others doing this already We've cracked the secret sauce of it We've been leaned into this for a number of years your scientists in the background on the on the hydrogen as well as on Jovi itself well, I mean this is this is one of the pillars of The incredible future that we're building and this has a this is a game changer on both the commercial applications And for the Department of War and so tell us a little bit more about this We've been hearing rumors leaking out of the Pentagon people are very excited Like what why is the Department of War potentially excited about this? Why would they be engaging with you if you can build aircraft that are Dramatically lower cost to make and to operate and That have unprecedented performance That's really really important. So what would this Potentially compete with that they're using right now. How would someone think about that? I was just like instead of a Blackhawk helicopter like that. Those are very popular What's kind of missions just I know you can't tell us everything but like how do you think about this just from a high level? I think that over time hydrogen propulsion will redefine every class of aircraft that's flown today both on you know on the commercial side and And for defense applications first-of-jet aircraft as well because it makes more sense Because it's so much higher specific power. It's just specific energy And specific power when you're talking right now I think a lot of people are picturing a Joby that has a fuel cell attached to it Yep, but you're actually talking also about other types of aircraft that are potentially even yeah long distance what we built is is What I believe to be the world's most vertically integrated aviation company. So this is from design to testing to manufacturing to operations across the full stack and Also the full width so we're building the everything from the autonomy computers to the battery systems to the motors to the airframe The propellers the propulsion systems like everything on the aircraft or the vast you know more than 90% of the components on the aircraft are Designed and manufactured in-house, but this is not just like an EV tall craft necessarily It could also be some other kind of airplane that they can go really far with hydrogen exactly, but we're not announcing that yet We're just teasing people You would also brought up earlier AI and we touched on the autonomy piece of it but I think it's really important to talk about what a game changer AI is and You know, this is the most profound Technology I think in the history of humanity does it make you go faster and everything you do absolutely So I suppose that looked like internally like is there something that would take you a few weeks that you get back in a day now I heard her explain like what does it mean faster? our chief air nanomess this was Absolutely giddy. I was talking to him just just a few hours ago and he's like He he can't sleep because of how excited he is about how performant these new models are where there have been a Project on for project after project that he even though he runs a huge team That he hasn't had resources to go and conquer those projects for years. So he's got this whole stack of Ideas and opportunities. He's he's now able to build in an afternoon What would have previously taken him weeks or months? He's like I'm 10x 10x is productive as I was just a few months ago and So that kind of breakthrough when you take one of the greatest minds aerodynamic minds on the planet and You enable him with something that makes him 10x is productive the The benefits compound in a crazy way one of the folks on his team one of the PhD who's one of the greatest optimist aerodynamic optimization people on planet. He said Joe Ben, thank you so much. I haven't been this excited in years. Thank you for giving us the opera the Access to the very best models and unlimited tokens. This allows me to be superhuman And he was so excited about it Just again and again across and you know, that's that's on the like the ultra high-end research Yeah, these are the folks that have a book of a dozen new aircraft designs that Not just are like 10% better than Aircraft that we have today, but you know five and ten times better For them to be able to unlock that productivity is incredible then you layer this across every single portion of the company HR finance the The engineering teams the certification teams the manufacturing teams just everything is everything faster more productive and This is like a force multiplier that takes our vertical integration and allows us to build a true You know game-changing aviation company and bring really exciting a Engineering innovation to people's daily lives. It feels like you're taking like the 20 30s and 20 40s And you're compacting them into the next few years right and some of these things that is our ambition that's like just Drive as much innovation. This is What I feel like our nation's greatest advantage right now is the incredible compute that we're able to bring to bear if we can make Every one of our engineers a 10x engineer that is a paradigm shift like we can Create so much prosperity That like we can deliver on the American Optimist vision. So it's it's like this is so Fantastic, I love it. I mean and I hear these models are only getting better like when you talk to They're getting better by the like every few days like this is the first time I've coated in in decade in more than a decade Where like I'm up all night coding Because it is so exciting. I can build a simulator to to to simulate anything that I can think of I'm like help me design this and then help me simulate it and then tell me, you know, how this changes The design of this next generation of aircraft It is so exciting and it's like these things keep getting better It's supposedly like they have insight on the next few years at this pace or even faster It's just like what happens if it's two years from now and there another, you know, 30 40 times better I guess you just you just every day you just do new things I mean at some point at some point you don't you have to focus more on your facilities in Ohio and scaling then you do on Because you already have all the designs or how do you think about that? Oh, this is why manufacturing is so critical right now is The ability to create is is compounding exponentially is manufacturing going to compound to like how do you get this to compound manufacturing? Like what does that look like? Well, I mean we just bought additional 730,000 square feet in Ohio We so we are compounding our manufacturing footprint and we are hiring aggressively And we're also layering in More and more layers of automation. We're using AI across All the different layers of our manufacturing It's like the iteration on the manufacturing just like keep getting better where every time you use something you can use AI to go Figure out how to go faster and better, huh? I think in the age of AI the the physical world is the The the friction it's the friction is the friction There's no real world need to do things but I think actually I think people in governments are the biggest friction But then the physical world's the next biggest right one of the areas where the vertical integration We have is is one of our superpowers and if we can really leverage the Leverage that vertical integration leverage our manufacturing expertise and and You know take the take the limits off on the regulatory side like what has been done with the IPP There's really no limit to what we can deliver and Job and you're expanding a lot in Ohio. What why Ohio? Are you building there? So Ohio is has an incredible aviation workforce dates back to the Wright brothers It's one of the best places for aviation talent anywhere in the world and We've been scaling our team and been really impressed by the caliber of team members. We've been able to add We doubled down and added an additional 730,000 square feet of manufacturing space that we closed on recently and it's also the state and Local government support has been absolutely phenomenal The political support has is off the charts and we're so excited to be building this next age of aviation Right where it all be in In Dayton, Ohio, I love it. You know Andrew's building their autonomous fighter just there too So I guess great minds think alike Palmer said the same thing. That's cool. Yeah, I I bombers doing incredible work and We're we're so thrilled to be building the next stage of aviation in in Ohio alongside great companies like general So speaking of limits on the regulatory side China is also racing for near taxis We were speaking earlier before the show America has obviously a lot more rules in China for many for good reasons We've learned from a hundred years of our aviation history China probably does not have nearly nearly as many rules which in some cases is dangerous But in some cases these guys they may be going faster than us like like why does it matter that America stays ahead of China? How do you think about that any amic with China? So Aviation has been one of our nation's most important exports since the Wright brothers first flu. We led in the jet age We let led with the space race We are now in the next day of age of aviation the electric age of aviation And it is essential that we continue to lead we have the best technology today But it is imperative that we run fast and we are light on regulations A few weeks ago. I was in China and I saw firsthand how fast they're moving and it is essential that We continue to lead on a technological standpoint. We we have Incredible technology. We have incredible engineers. We have AI and that is 10xing those incredible engineers We need to deliver on the manufacturing side. They are in China I saw production facilities that are scaling for thousands of aircraft per year So it is vitally important that and and that is the competition that I'm laser focused on What are you gonna get to thousands per year? That is our mission is and and again, this is why you have companies you gotta be careful what you tell me I guess, huh? This is what I need to hear that that is one of the reasons why having toyed at our sides is so vitally important is That Toyota manufacturers 10 million Cars a year the 10 million. Wow. I didn't realize that's all and they are one of the best companies in the world when it comes to manufacturing with incredible quality at massive scale and so The aircraft that we have it Like we're as we get this thing certified. It's gonna be time to turn the key and And ramp up manufacturing to real scale There's something about Toyota and about design where it seems like Manufacturing a scale and how they design it like Palmer talks about this has to be together, right? So a lot of the design is not just about this is really cool and more efficient and better It's also about this is something we can build at scale more easily, right? Is that we when your aerodynamic is really excited airting with AI is that part of what he's thinking about? It's okay. How do I design this thing to build more easily is that a big part of it? Is it should be bigger part of it? How do you think about that? I think about where we are today as as being akin to where Automotive was in the 1890s before when we were still hand-building them Yeah, and the question is gonna be how quickly can we move from there to Where Ford was when they introduced the Model T you got designed them to mass produce more easily obviously, right? Which is hopefully not 30 years though exactly, but You can also think about this where you know with Apple with the first model of the iPhone and You know, hopefully we can be something on that Along that timeline where every year we are every year you make a lot of use of to produce a lot more It was like the iPhone 4 before it was pretty good. I thought I don't know if you remember this but but if if we can iterate once a year and within four years have something that's Your terms are acceptable Year that I can fly on it next year, but then I get everyone was doing it in four years. I thought that'd be very acceptable I think that should be our ambition. I want to ask also. I saw there's been like some back and forth was like a competitor I always thought you had clearly had the best engineers versus I think it was Archer that was giving you trouble and they were doing some stuff wrong And then they tried to accuse you of things one of the smears was that read Hoffman's an investor Which is it's a little bit annoying because I was an investor in Jobe much earlier than read But but because he's an unpopular Democrat with this administration They're trying to smear you with him even though, you know, all the other people all around him have different views So I thought that was kind of BS. I think they hit you for something with the supply chain It doesn't seem true. It's touch what's going on? Are you probably don't want to answer the exact accusations? But what why are they they're attacking you because you're winning or they are you could you attack them? What's has happening there? There are some companies in this country that are doing incredible engineering and That are actually moving the ball forward there are others who Maybe you're struggling and So maybe I'll leave it at that when people struggle. They may be maybe lash out. I guess that's that's that's fair It's not not your words. So Jobe and you're building What's hopefully one of the next great American companies here? This is bringing massive manufacturing to the US It's it's really pushing the future forward. I love it You know, we started this podcast to push back on a lot of cynicism and pessimism We see in our country leave us with an inspiring vision like how are flying cars going to change the world for the better? so as we launch into our 250th anniversary year of our nation. It's so exciting that we're gonna be taking our aircraft and flying it across the country for our electric skies and This I hope will will bring excitement in about this next age of aviation about this next age of daily transportation to people across the country and Really, I think the the key message to take take away is that With the technologies we're building whether that's Our core aircraft whether that's our super pilot and the autonomy stack we're building whether that's with hydrogen electric propulsion that we can reshape aviation to be Much more relevant to people's Daily lives and to move us The people and things around the planet more efficiently at lower cost at higher speed and This is a really Exciting moment for the aviation industry and this is a place in an industry where the United States has led since the Wright brothers first flew and We're thrilled at Joby to be taking that Incredible legacy from the Wright brothers back to Dayton, Ohio where it all began and ramping our manufacturing facility there with incredible political support from Across the nation. I love it when you and when you say lower cost making more relevant to people I want to pull out a couple things for a conversation because the hydrogen fuel cells plus how you power the planes in the air That's a 6x, but then you also could have a multiple more efficient design So I mean in theory here It sounds like we're talking about potentially lowering the cost of travel for some people by 10x by 15x Over the coming years. This is that you're literally gonna make air travel like way cheaper and way more available for everyone Yeah, so air travel today is our lowest cost highest speed and safest motor transport. So it's It's hundreds of times safer or even thousands of times safer than driving it is you know more than 10 times faster and It's it's on the order of a border magnitude less expensive per passenger mile so it's a really it's already a game-changing technology and as you said we can multiply those advantages with these next-generation technologies and So it's it's a the dawn of the electric age of aviation. I love it. Well, that's exciting news for everyone in America Thank you, Kevin. Thank you so much. Sure