Technical Difficulties on Death Row (w. Corinna Barrett Lain)

This is exactly right. of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foote. I'm Melissa Malbranch. Today we're going to be talking about how beautiful Bollywood is, all the booties and heated rivalry, how kids are exhausting, our candid thoughts on transracialism, an interview with Karina Barrett Lane on capital punishment, and we're going to respond to your comments in Tales from the DMs. So stick around. Why was I Southern? I'm Paula Deen. Welcome back. I just don't know. I'm calling the police officer. Officer! You can pull off that vest. I think so. One second. I agree. I love it. I agree. You described it as? I feel like this makes me look like somebody who supports NPR. Yes, you've got your total. And like I also support the Met. Your name's Rosemary. You're from the Upper West Side. No. No? No. Just you as yourself. No, yeah. It's definitely me as myself. And I feel like my husband and I just flew in from the coast, the Ivory Coast. I like that. Did you get this vest? I love it. It was a raffle. You know which raffle? NPR? No. Was it at the rec center? It was at the end of the year raffle. And that's all I'm going to say. Oh, okay. Yep. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And I wanted it. I love it. Show everyone this vest. I'm going to describe it for the people listening in their cars flying down the freeway. It's by a Thai designer whose name I can't remember. It's beautiful. It's got these little tassels. I know. I love it. It's got a great. One time I had like a, it was clearly affiliated with an ethnicity sweater that I was looking at online. And I sent it to you. What did I say? And I said, can I pull this off? And what did I say to you? And I already knew the answer because you do this to me too, where you'll send me a vintage fur and you'll be like, can I get this? And I'm like, enough. Okay. Enough with the fur. But we are each other's gut checks. Yes. You're the friend where it's like temperature check. Yeah. Can I or can I not? And you said, I don't know what culture it is, but I know that culture doesn't belong to you. What a bitch I am. And I was like that. You were thinking you said exactly what I was thinking, which is that, you know what? I, I, that was the hesitation within me and I couldn't really articulate it, but you could. And I think that's beautiful. You know what I love? I just think it's so beautiful. Saris are so beautiful. But I feel like that, right? Like I can't wear that. Someone brought me back like one of those fully like knee length shirts from India. And I was like, I don't know about walking down in the West Village wearing this. I don't know how I feel about that. But thank you for the gift. Beautiful. But it's like, it's one of those things, like, I wonder if it's better for me to admire it on someone else than to, because I don't, I really don't want to be like a culture vulture, right? I don't want to appropriate it. But I love to look at, these are the things that happen to you when you sort of scroll mindlessly on the internet. But like, every now and then I'll fall upon like a Bollywood, like an opening of something or like a Bollywood award show. Oh, beautiful. And they're just, these women are like beautiful. I like the gold bangly things on the veil. It's really cool. So pretty. And then I'm like, oh, I wish that I could. And then immediately I'm like, you can't. And that's okay. You can't and that's okay. You can. Appreciate it from afar. I can appreciate it from afar. Yeah. The makeup is always correct. Oh. Snatched. Always. Always, always, always. Beat the mug. Down. Always down. Every time. Yeah, I gotta beat the face. We need to send our makeup artists to India to learn their ways. Because sometimes, we've had makeup artists on sets before where, let's just say, painting Melissa's face and then a middle-aged, bald-headed, super pale. Do you think you're middle-aged? And 37? Is that middle-aged? Can we get a comment below? I'm almost 54. I don't know. I feel like, okay. Are we both middle-aged? We can't be. We can't. I am too much older than you. The middle of what age? I mean, the other thing, though, I would have to live to be at least 100 and something for me to be middle age. But my grandmother. That's true. Your grandmother lived really long. My grandmother lived a long time. But I mean, she lived a long time. But I wonder if it was. If we're doing it based off age of grandparents. My grandparents died in their like 40s, 50s and 60s. They did? Yeah. I'm elder care now. This is hospice for me. Yeah. Yeah. Like if we're doing it based off of that measure. Okay. I feel like 40s is middle aged. That's assuming that you are going to. I mean, I feel like middle age. We're thinking about living until. Middle age is a state of mind. Okay. I think. Okay. Right. Don't you feel middle aged? Some days when I wake up and my hips hurt. When I step out of bed and both hips crack. Bang, bang. I feel middle aged when I come across like. the grammys or the mtv awards and i'm like who the fuck is that i'm the same way who is that person they're like chicka bang bang is gonna be doing her opening number and i'm like who is this and then they bring out a 17 year old in a pair of heels who's chicka bang banging oh by the way speaking of banging sorry you know what i finally watched what heated rivalry i said speaking of my back's blown out in bed and I can't stand up. Let's talk about the gay sex show, Heated Rivalry. So here's what I feel like. Overall, it was really good. Oh, you've got a critique. Be careful. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is going right on TikTok. Be careful. So my friend Zandra, shout out to Zan, is obsessed with this show. And she was like, you got to watch it. You got to watch it. You got to watch it. Tell Zandra to text me because I am, I'm deep in the matrix on heated rivalry. Okay. So I'm doing like scripture versus TV. I'm doing like that is not, they're not staying true to the texts. Scott is actually a verse top and we show him. He doesn't even bottom once in the show. Right. What does the old Testament say? Like we have to refer back there. We've read the books. Yes. All of them. Yes. Okay. Legal, legal scholar. Sure. You've hired like the actual law professor on heated rivalry. So few things. So first of all, I lately I've been doing audio books more than actually reading books. I like that because you can go for a walk. Correct. You can do laundry. You could do whatever. The problem with audible or any kind of audio book is that if the actor or the reader is not good, then it ruins the experience. And I started to listen to it and I could not with that voice. You have to get like an actual actor. Sometimes Claire Danes narrated The Handmaid's Tale. Yes, I read that. Fierce. Yes. No, not The Handmaid's Tale. The Testament. Did she also do The Handmaid's Tale? I think she did because I didn't listen to The Testament. You didn't? Okay. I listened to The Testament. According to the TikTok comments on a video I saw, she did it. She did it? Okay. So I think that's pretty. Okay. CJ's going to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. No, but she did. She did The Testament. And what was cool about The Testament was that it is several actors reading. So, Aunt Lydia was... Ann Dowd. Yeah. And I can't remember who else was in it, but Claire Danes was in it. It was so good. I don't know anything about Ann Dowd, but there is this Twitter account called, I think it's like Hot Ann Dowd. I forget what it's called. There's some sort of Ann Dowd parody account, and it's so good. I love it so much. So here's my feeling about Heated Rivalry. Okay. Really good. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I think what ends up happening. No, no, no, no. Hear me out. When other people have told you, you have to watch this show. It's the best show ever. So you go in it with these very high expectations. And I feel like it would have been better for me had I gone in blind. Yeah. Having said that, that is some good shit. And the guy who plays Ilya. Oh, Connor Story. Yes. Yeah. That is the nicest ass. I love this because Melissa, I love this because this is exactly what the internet was saying four weeks ago. Sure. I'm slow to it. I'm slow to it, but I'm true to it. It's so good. And you know, the other thing is that at certain points I'm watching this show and I am feeling very sad, right? I'm feeling so sad that there are still so many people who feel obligated to not be your authentic self, which makes me so sad because I also feel like when you are not yourself, you don't really show up in the world the way that you want to. And I also think that that constant level of frustration is also what can make you an asshole. Yes. Right. Because you are just constantly not able to be yourself. The number of DL guys that I hooked up with in college hanging out of frat building windows, climbing down the gutter is unbelievable. They're all DL. They're all hiding how gay they are. They're all in the wrestling team because they just want to touch a butt. It is actually, it's so real. Yeah. So not to say that all wrestlers are gay balls, but a lot of, especially people in sports, Yeah. Or a lot of people are super sports fans. Yeah. Like sometimes like the dads that love football. Sometimes I'm like, you're a little bit too invested in that man in spandex. I'm sorry. Not all. Not all. Not all. Not all. But some. And at least one. One out of five football dads might be gay. Secretly gay. I overfilled this water way too much. You do that all the time. Every single week we come to the studio. So immediately what happens? I spill my water in the green room. Yep. And then we come in here and I spill the water. It's a dry set. And I'm looking forward to. They're doing another installment, right? Yeah. I mean, I think I wonder if they're going to sort of Bridgerton it. Oh, yes. I think they are actually. Yeah. Because there are a lot of actors on that show that got like two minutes of screen time. And they really did make it with like paper and like hot glue guns and bubble gum wrapper. because I was watching a thing and it was the wardrobe person was explaining how she pulled together the wardrobe and the story she told with all the outfits. The dress that Rose wears at the club, it's like a shimmery dress that she wears. It's a piece of fabric held together with like paper, literally safety pin to this poor actress's body because the budget was like $10. They made this with nothing totally stupid thing but a million years ago there was a girl group called the go-go's right okay and um when they were they i think it was like either their first or their second album and they had no money no money for any no money for makeup no money for uh for clothing and the the the album art is all of them in a towel each of them are wearing a towel and they're All wearing face masks because they had no money for makeup. They had no money for budget. And I remember watching like a VH1 behind the story or whatever where the person, their producer or whoever it was, was just like, I have to return those to Macy's. Do not get any of the face cream on it. So, I mean, yeah. I return stuff all the time. Same. I love a good return. Yeah. Brad got really mad at me because on Saturday, a huge box arrived at the house. From? I got a pair of boots for Christmas. I remember the boot story. Yeah. And I couldn't figure out what to return them for. Yeah. The way I exchanged them for a huge oversized dog bed from this company. They had big, fluffy dog beds for the dog. Does Jack need that? No. He doesn't need anything. He was raised in the wild. I know, but doesn't Jack sleep with you every night? Yeah, he does. Okay. He has not put one little crusty toenail on that fucking bed. No. Yet. And doesn't plan to. No. He walks right past it and gets in bed with us. Yeah. Or he just sleeps on the floor. Yeah. Same. Arthur Weasley. You think he sits in the bed that I bought him? Although. But I'll never admit Brad is right. Electric blanket, which he likes. Arthur Weasley has an electric blanket. I will not be judged by the likes of you. Arthur Weasley has an electric blanket. And when he wants me to turn it on, he goes and he stands over and he looks at me and he meows. And because I am his bitch, I go over quickly and I turn it on. Not him training you. He just kind of like looks at me like. He's like, time is money, baby. You got a New York minute to turn the sucker on. It takes a minute to heat up. Totally other things. So I feel like people who are on the verge of having kids are going to enjoy this story. Right. Oh, my God. I'm so excited. So remember, we were texting, and I was like, I'm exhausted. You watched your nephew. So my brother and sister-in-law went away for about five days. Yeah. And they were like, can you and Andre watch the baby? Of course. Yeah. No problem. Let me tell you something. I am no longer the same person that I was. And he is actually an exceptionally good baby. I'm sure. yeah he's super cute but like so speaking of like training me he now so he's like nine months old and he now has realized that there's a camera in his in his bed and he was now turning around and looking at us doing monologues and he's just like tick tock tick tock motherfucker come get me he knows that when he looks at the camera someone will come in soon thereafter he's looking he was really smart love it so much but like and i'm still figuring out the doorbell yeah no So Amari, love of my life, is looking directly into the camera and he's just like, let's stop playing these games. He's saying like and follow, share if you agree. Yes, absolutely. That's so cute. This like 19 and a half pound Thanksgiving turkey ran me into the ground. Did I send you the picture of Andre passed out? No. No, I'm going to send it to you. Send it to me. I want to see it. I want to see it. He was like, and Andre like had a kid and raised a kid. I feel that way when I even just like hanging out with my friends kids for a couple hours and they're there. We Brad and I leave and we're like in overdrive. Yeah, it's a lot. I know. But it was it was a good time. But I feel like I was saying this to all my friends and family who my heart goes out to anyone with a child. Hats off, man. God, that is less. And the constant blowout. Yeah. Yo, yo, that's not for me. Actually, you know what? I went to my friend's house and she has three kids. OK, love. They're so fun. had a blast yeah and she said to me she was like yeah my husband was was was like i just love how michael and brad show up to our house we have dinner we hang out and then they just like kind of they'll let us know an hour before they come over that they're coming and we're just gonna and they'll join us for dinner they live like not too far from us yeah yeah and then they and then we we hang out we do a puzzle we have dinner we order takeout they always bring like a we always stop at billy's bakery and bring dessert uh and then they just like leave yeah and and she was like yeah to her husband she was like yeah they don't have kids they can do that they can just like get in a cab and come uptown sure and hang out with us for a couple hours and then leave and it's the best it's the best thing in the world yeah it was so it's so much time yeah but she was like yeah honey they don't have kids they can do that that is sweet sweet freedom a child-free life yeah i know highly recommend it anyone thinking about having kids i mean think about that shit hard because it's forever. Okay, but BTS for brief recess, someone in our studio, we can't say who is expecting a child. We can say? Our producer CJ is having a baby! So this whole segment has been just to fuck with him. And I told him, I was just like, we're going to talk about something that I think that you especially are going to find. Oh, I didn't even piece that together. No, I did. He was like, okay. But I'm going to put it in the YouTube to put out a picture of Andre. But I stand by my statements. Oh, Andre passed the fuck out. Oh, I'm falling asleep just thinking about it. You know what? Let's take a break. I got to take a sip out of this. I don't want to make a mess. Don't make a mess. Fool. I'm Clayton Eckerd. And in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first Bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected. The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines. It began as a one-night stand and ended in a courtroom, with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. Please search warrant. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. This season, an epic battle of he said, she said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I have done nothing except get pregnant by the f***ing bachelor! Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt It cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong Listen to Doubt The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is your algorithm is showing. Melissa, what is happening in your feet this week? What's the tea? What's the shade? So I've been trying really hard to disengage from the plastic surgery stuff because it's been like, it's like fucking, it's like starting to fuck with me for real. Right. But I've gone to another place. I've gone to an even darker place. A darker place. So are you familiar with this notion of people being transracial? Meaning that you. You're like Chinese and black? No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's just say, for example. I guess I shouldn't just start like wildly guessing when it comes to race. It's like the one person. Well, because I do think that the term transracial can be confusing because sometimes when, let's say, a white family adopts a Chinese baby, they call that a transracial adoption. But that's not what I'm talking about. What are you talking about? I'm talking about people who, let's say, do you remember that story about that woman, that white woman, Rachel Dolezal, who was... Yes. Was sort of... Trans-Rachel is Rachel Dolezal? Well, people like that, right? Who feel inside that they're... Who feel like inside, like they were born one race, like Rachel Dolezal. I cannot get... Am I about to be canceled for saying I can't get behind this at all? So here's the thing, right? So I don't know where I fell into this, but I started like really like doing a deep dive. And then there's like this black woman. I'm sorry for laughing at this. There's this black woman who's doing the same thing. I forget her name, Donna something or another, who was born an African-American woman or at least a black woman who has now gone through all the stages. She's bleached her skin. She's bleached her hair. She's got blue contact lenses and is living her life as a white woman. As a white woman. Right. Oh, no. Now, here is my question, right? Why? I've been asking myself this question. Why does this not sit well with me? Right. And I really can't pinpoint it because if I were to find out that somebody is a trans person. I know. I was just thinking like. My feeling is good for you. Live your truth. Be who you're supposed to be. I know. It's like an identity politics. Correct. Because it's like if we are saying that people who believe inside that they're born into the wrong thing. Right. It's actually the same sort of correct logic kind of. But I was again. So falling into. I can feel the trans people typing. Yeah. In the comments. And and you know, and I and I want to be both understanding and respectful. Yeah, like these are like siblings in my community. I'm like, I feel very confused, but and also conflicted by it. Right. Because I definitely feel like trans people are who they say they are. Right. End of story, frankly. Right. I feel like 30 years ago, people were having the same conversation about trans people. But like for me, like my gut reaction of like Rachel Dolezal is actually. Why? That is crazy to me. And I'm asking myself, right, why does that make me feel uncomfortable? Right. And I don't have an answer. And this is not meant to be disrespectful or dismissive of anybody, of any community. But like, it leaves me feeling like conflicted. Yeah, like I'm just kind of like, ugh. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, it is actually like a Gordian knot. Like, okay, so what is bothering me about this? Right. For me, I'm like, this is the same thing about your vest. It's like a white person appropriating a fucking culture. Right. Dolezal did to her political career. What like that is a white person trying to take another culture. Right. It's the same with me sending you the sweater and being like, I want to wear this sweater. It's the same thing. But the difference between you sending me a photo of this sweater and the same thing of me looking at and admiring saris, right? It's like we're looking at this and also understanding that like people are not clothing options, right? We understand that, right? But we're looking at these items and we're just like asking ourselves, is it okay if I wear this or no, right? Because again, you want to be respectful. I don't this is this feels different. I guess I feel like Rachel Dolezal is like the wrong entree into this conversation because like the notion that someone feels like they are born another person, period, and then wants to like live that authentic life, whether you're trans or transracial, transgender or transracial, I guess is like those those are the same sort of conversation. Right. To say this. Right. I can't find a way that we would discuss it differently. Right. nor can i but which means then therefore i must i guess i have to support this right so i don't know i guess i'm just do i just do i guess i need to learn more is like where i'm yeah and and again i've been i've been googling i've been like really looking into this and i guess this is literally like day one i've literally never heard of this except for rachel dolezal who is a punchline Like, right. And so maybe that is like, but you know what, though, I will say, I mean, again, I, there were a couple of things. There were so many, there were many, many things about her that, that upset me and bothered me personally. There was one story that she told. She was talking about her hair transition. Right. And she was talking about her kitchen. Now, for white people who don't know what that is, your kitchen is the back part of your hair. And that's usually where the texture of your hair is the coarsest. Usually, not always, but usually. And for this white woman who was born with straight hair to be standing in front of other people of color talking about the difficulty of working through that kitchen. Wait, wait, wait. She's white pretending to be black? Rachel Dozal? Oh my God. Sorry. I thought we were talking about this person on TikTok. No, no, no, no, no. Which is Rachel Dozal. No, no, no, no. And I remember when I was transitioning my hair, the hard time that my family gave me and how I felt like- And Rachel was doing that? And she was doing that. And I felt like, who are you? To talk about this. To talk about this thing. Because it didn't happen to you. Yeah. Right? It did not happen to you. And you are a culture vulture, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Do you see what I'm saying? I guess the deviation in my mind is like, okay, so we've, and I'm going to like try and break this down as like an analytical attorney. Sure. So we've got the transgender conversation, right? Which is like anyone who wants to shift their gender identity on wherever on the spectrum. Yes. Live your truth. Correct. I run into issue with transracial conversation. Yes. When it is white becoming black or white becoming anything else. Okay. That is where I'm like a little bit held up because I've been conditioned to say that is cultural appropriation or like blackface, right? That's someone pretending to be another race, right? Okay. Right? I don't know. I don't know. Or just like an extreme version of. Right. And I mean, but there's this other woman whose name I can't remember right now, but who, like I said, this, this black woman who is now living her life as a white woman. And I have so many feelings. I know I was going to say, I don't really know if I have anything to say about that, but like, I'm sure you do. I mean, I just have feelings about it, right? Like what did something happen? was there a message that you heard that makes you hate yourself but if somebody were to talk to me about a trans person i would never think i don't know so that's why i'm a little hung up on correct so okay so like putting my message out there to the world of what i think about this i think i need to learn more because i don't think i this is my literally i'm finding out about this live on the air yeah yeah yeah this is the first time i've ever heard of this except for rachel dolazal which i highly judge and condemn what she did sure sure because she just pretended to be black to get ahead in life right i think so is that what she did i think i'm pretty sure that was like how i read it but does that but does she think that's what she did because it seems to me that the other thing about her was that she was she had stopped speaking to her white family altogether. And if you were to look at the work that she did, she either worked for or did something with the NAACP. She did good work for them. She's the president of the NAACP. For a chapter. One of the chapters. Yeah. And she has black children. I think she had children with a an actual black man and loves the culture according to her yeah right i don't know i okay do you see do you see the trouble that i'm having yeah but if we do that then like hilaria baldwin is also correct we have to be like we love that she uh it is pretending she can't pronounce cucumber well okay but but that i think you know when she was like how you say like she did that shit yeah yeah yeah that i feel like is is different but why do i feel like it's different her life i think in her mind she's like living her life as a spanish person but correct massachusetts uh-huh it's so we are living in such strange and i don't and again i'm excited i'm excited i'm excited and i'm and i'm genuinely not making fun of anybody no i'm i am i'm interested to learn more trying to understand yeah and also trying to understand myself i know because you You and I have had these conversations where it's like, you're a very proud black Haitian woman. For sure. And we've talked a lot about the way black women treat their hair, what your hair journey's been, what that's been like for you, and how wrapped up in that whole sushi roll of emotions is sometimes self-loathing and internalized racism. So, again, I think that what the trouble that I've been having is, why does this not sit well with me? And I don't understand why that is. I guess just like, again, still hearing this first time, maybe it's that we've just really been conditioned to think about it this way of like, if you, or at least for me, like a white liberal in a big city, I've been conditioned that when I hear person pretending to be other race, we inhale and we get nervous. Right. Someone, someone putting that on is we're not supposed to be cool with that. Right. And I'm not saying I still think we are not supposed to be cool with that, but it sounds like maybe this is like a special version. I don't know, Michael. I don't know. I mean, I think because I do see a lot of like connections to the transgender conversation. How do we separate the two and condemn one and love the other? Because I've been doing like this. Yeah. This dive on it. I've seen where transgendered people are like, don't compare that. Interesting. Oh, OK. But again, but I think for, you know, as many trans people as there are, there are different trans people who feel differently about their own journey. Right. And again, I'm going to believe the person that I'm talking to. I'm going to believe what the people are saying about themselves. Right. I don't know. I am going to watch like a lot of breakdowns of this on TikTok. I will say that I am deeply disappointed in you. Why? For not sending it to me sooner. because I want to watch, you know, I love staying up until four in the morning. I know. Deep, just doom scrolling, going down crazy rabbit holes. I want to see that shit. I'm watching, meanwhile, I'm watching ear hair removal videos at the Turkish Barber Shop. I watch those too. And I could be watching this and really learning and growing as a person. No, no, no, no. How fucking dare you? I'm sorry. You know, okay, well, here's the silly thing that I've been watching. I've also fallen into pedicure TikTok. Oh, I don't want to see someone getting Little Miss Piggy, Miss Roast Beef worked on. No, I don't want to see that. Send me the identity politics. I want to get worked up into a lather. I know. But seriously, it's been like, I'm really feeling very conflicted. Well, this is what I want to get into that and learn about it. Because it really is a culture, it sounds like, or someone's experience that I'm not hearing about or learning about. Nope. And I want to be on the forefront of that shit. I want to know because my whole feed, I mean, mine, mine gets like really doom scrolly with like the news and the headlines. Like I am, I've noticed, especially since the ice attacks in Minneapolis, that I've become a part of the conversation where I'm commenting on it. I'm also a part of the echo chamber a little bit. And my whole sort of algorithm has become very much ultra liberal anti-ice. Yeah. I mean, same, but this is like this weird thing that I fell into. No, I get it. I also have like Birkin bags in Dubai and it's unboxing of Birkin beds. But now the Dubai Birkin bag girlies are literally in fucking bunkers. Yes. Because Dubai is getting bombed. Yeah, I know. Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. I was watching last night and it was the Birkenback girl. She came up and she was in a bunker with all her purses. She took her purses with her? Stop it. Stop it. No, she didn't. I mean, I'm not going to. Unless the purse is in the, the purses are in the bunker at all times. I will, I can either confirm or deny that she carried them down there. I have to, I did not see her lug all the purses down there. But yeah, here we, here's where we are in modern warfare. Okay, that bothers me. There are so many things that bother me. She's like, I can go on the record about this. I can finally say for sure. I can say that the world around you is coming to an end and your first course of action is save the bags. let's say i've been in i've been in near misses before where i'm like like you get in a car accident or i was on a train once where there was like i honestly don't even know what happened like a trans transistor transistor like exploded or something and there was like smoke and a fire and there like there was a big explosion on a train and it was with my college boyfriend and I ran and I left him. You left him. I left him so fucking fast. Did you ever see this episode? I dumped that little fucker so fast. I ran for it. Oh, God. Jerry Seinfeld. The Seinfeld. Where there's like a fire and George is at a birthday party. And he pushes the kids out of the way. To save himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love this guy so fast. And we got in a fight about it after. I'm sure. You just left me. You just left me. We broke up soon. I was going to say, we're not with him. It didn't last. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm really excited. I want to get into some of these headlines, but our guest is here. Okay. And we've got an interesting conversation today. I'm looking forward to talking to her. Yeah. Should I tease it a little bit? You can do it afterwards. Okay. Yeah. You don't have to whisper. They're like... You can do it later. You can do it later. She whispers directly into her fucking mic. All right. We'll be right back. I'm Clayton Eckerd. And in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first Bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected. The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines. It began as a one-night stand and ended in a courtroom, with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. Please search warrant. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. This season, an epic battle of he said, she said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I have done nothing except get pregnant by the f***ing bachelor. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. A nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain? A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So welcome back to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foote. We're going to be talking today about lethal injection. Today, we have just a lighthearted conversation. Easy breezy. We're here with Karina Barrett Lane. She's a professor of law at the University of Richmond State Law, and she's one of the nation's leading authorities on the death penalty. She's a former sergeant in the U.S. military and the author of the book, Secrets of the Killing State, The Untold Story of Lethal Injection. Please welcome Karina Lane Thank you I so happy to be here And you just finished a book tour right A crazy book tour I did That was about that Oh my goodness It was the adventure of a lifetime So my sister and I shout out to Mandy. We went in her van. Hashtag van life. And she drove every mile of this. And it was 13,000 miles. We did. Yeah, we did 57 events in just under 80 days. Wow. And how was the relationship at the end of that? I feel like these are important questions to ask, right? These are such a good question. You must have a sister to ask that question. I have a younger brother. Okay. Well, you know, it was fantastic. But I do have to say at the very, very end, we ended the tour in Oklahoma City. And I had three events in Oklahoma City. And she's driving me to one of the events. And she said, you know, I didn't think we were going to make it. I didn't think we were going to end. And I was like, what do you mean you didn't think we were going to make it? Like, what did you think was going to happen? And she said, I don't really know. But I didn't think I'd be driving you at the end. I thought you're just going to drop me off alongside the road or something. Abandon you. But it was great. Good. Good, good, good. And people, I, you know, after that experience, I just feel like there's such goodness in the world. And at the beginning, I was pretty nervous because, you know, two women in a van driving around the deep south saying, let's not kill people. Like what could go wrong? Right. Yeah. But people were really kind and open minded. And I found that so many people, they just they didn't know. And almost every single one of those events turned into a larger conversation about the death penalty. And I welcome that here. Well, I was just going to say, like, you're such a friendly, warm, bubbly, infectious person to pick such like an intense topic. I think when I when we were talking about having you on the show, I think you and I get similarly sort of categorized of like dealing with a really crazy subject matter. and still like being somewhat of an optimistic person, I think is like a really unique, strange persona to have in the world. And I just, I'm just so curious what led you to this topic? Like, was there a catalyst for this in your life? Because people ask me all the time, like, how'd you get into immigration law? Like, what was that for you from an immigrant family? And And I just want to hear, like, I'm sure it wasn't A to B. I'm sure it was mercurial. It was not. And I have to say, kudos to you, because, you know, everything you say about me is really applies to you 10 times. Because you're seeing people, like you're seeing actual people, right? Like you're a frontline provider. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Whereas I'm a researcher. Now, there is a story, you know, behind that. Of course, yeah. I think it would be even harder to see, you know, cruelty and brutality. Yeah. Yeah. See their face. Yeah. We can. A, I wouldn't have it any other way. B, I'm like, who would I be if I didn't do something? Like if I have the skills I have and I'm able to help, who would I be? And C, I'm like, oh, yes, it's awful to be around this, but I can actually do something. Yeah. And I have like the tools to do it. So it's kind of like I've chosen a space where I actually have a lot of agency, which is unusual. I think a lot of people who are service providers, they can help in like one small way. But I'm like, oh, there's actual relief here that I can seek. And the other avenue for someone who is combative, angry, a loud mouth. I get in a lot of fights. My desk at school was in the hallway. I've got an older sister. We fought like cats and dogs. The other pathway for me, aside from the courtroom, was probably the jailhouse or the drunk guy at the bar starting fights. So, like, it's like, oh, I actually, like, made, like, a pretty productive path for that. But, yeah, that's how I sort of categorize it in my mind. But I'm still also, like, yeah, sorry. We don't have to talk about me. We brought you on the show to talk about you. It's so good. Well, I will tell you, I am a former prosecutor. Cool. And I'm a legal historian. And so what brought me to the death penalty in the first instance is I was doing I did two legal history pieces on the death penalty. And those were more about, you know, the conditions under which the Supreme Court protects unpopular minorities. minorities. I just remember sort of, you know, high school civics where it's like, you know, the Supreme Court is this protector of unpopular minorities from overreaching, tyrannical majorities. And we don't, we laugh at that now, but at the time I was like, is that true? Is that true? Yeah, it very much is how we came up. Yeah. No one's even saying it now. They're not. I mean, they're not. No, but even when I was in law school, it was like, oh, the Supreme Court, like, it's loosely tied to politics and who's in power in the presidency. And maybe they sometimes wait to retire until there's a favorable president in their political party. No, we can't say that anymore. I mean, it would be flying in the face of what we're looking at, right? And what we're witnessing every day. That's right. Yeah. Well, when I was doing the second death penalty piece, I came across this case in Texas. It's a real case. It's from 2000. You might've heard of it, the Birding case. And in that particular case, the lawyer fell asleep during trial. It was a capital trial. And I was so shocked because the lawyer didn't say like, I wasn't asleep. I was resting my eyes or it was like really concentrating. The lawyer said, yeah, I fell asleep. Yeah, it was during trial, but it wasn't an important part. Yeah. Oh. And I remember being like, pretty sure it's all an important part, no matter what, but especially when your life is at stake. And then, you know, what the court said. So there's a little line. I still have my students read it where the court said the Constitution says you're entitled to an attorney. It doesn't say they have to be awake. Right. Wow. And that was this moment where I just thought, you know, good people on both sides of the aisle would look at that and say. That's outrageous. Right. Like, you can't be killing people if you have sleeping lawyers and drunk lawyers and prosecutors hiding evidence. And so that was the moment when I said, I need to look at this closer. And so I've been researching and writing about the death penalty for 18 years now. Wow. And so that's like the death penalty more generally. And then as for this book, I didn't really so much as choose it as it chose me. But I had a research question because that's what we do. And my question was, why are states so breathtakingly bad at executions by lethal injection? Like, why am I seeing three-hour-long executions and two-hour-long executions? And you've been to executions? No. Okay. I have not. I've not been asked and I'm actually quite thankful for that. But, you know, if I'm tracking it, would you go? I try not to deal in hypotheticals, but what would you do? I've thought about this a lot. I've thought about it too. I've thought about it a lot. I don't know because I have to tell you, just researching this and hearing the media stories and now I know members of the media and I know capital defenders. And so I hear their stories and I feel like I'm stretched as a researcher. Yeah. Like this is as far as I can go. I just, I'm an empath. Yeah. And knowing what I know, just seeing it, even if it looked peaceful, I have to tell you the second drug is a paralytic. And it's not just a paralytic. It's a muscle relaxant. So it relaxes the muscles in your face. So it gives the appearance. And it freezes them that way. Yeah. Right. So anyway, I had this question of, you know, I'm seeing autopsies with 18 puncture wounds. Yeah. And people waking up in the midst of their own execution. And I just thought, you know, I don't understand. We know how to put down our beloved pets. I know it's very clinical. Yes. But I'm a researcher. Yeah. And it was like. Let's really get into this. We know how physician-assisted suicide works. So why are they so bad at this? Like there's the whole death penalty thing. And we could talk about that. But that's not what people. This is not what that is. Today. Yes. What has been the sort of response to that question in your research? I mean, don't give away the heart of the book, but what have you sort of found? Were there any discoveries that you made in your research? Oh my goodness. What has the public sort of reach been? Yeah. So, I mean, the answer ended up as a book. It took me the entire book to answer it. And it spans anywhere from, I thought there was science behind this thing. I really did. I thought, surely someone didn't just make this up off the top of their head. Someone literally made this up off the top of their head. That actually happened. The specific way, the means in which we execute people. Yeah. So lethal injection came to be in 1977. And actually, just to contextualize it, it was really no accident that it happened in 77 because the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty in 72, brought it back in 76. And by 1977, the country had not seen an execution in 10 years. Oh, wow. So you had Gary Gilmore just do it. That's firing squad. And everyone was like freaked out. And legislators around the country said, we need to do something else. The country hasn't seen an execution. They're going to be super squeamish about the electric chair gassing people. And a federal court had found a First Amendment right to televise executions at the time. Now, it wouldn't last. Yeah. But nobody could have known that. And so you had legislators talking about, well, we can't have an electrocution in someone's living room. Yes, no. Right. And so it was this big push of, okay, well, what about death by drugs? And that would look nicer, thinking of the pets. And in Oklahoma, the legislators are asking their doctors, their personal doctors, the state medical association, nobody wanted to play. and so they turned to the state medical examiner, the coroner this guy named Jay Chapman, he was a doctor but he referred to himself as an expert in dead bodies but not in how to get them that way. Oh god This is just like one of those This is one of those things where it is just kind of like an absolute clusterfuck and then it creates legal precedent and then we still have it today because no one can get rid of it. It's such a cluster Oh, my God. And so they said, will you help? And he said, sure. And he literally made it up. And I found an interview of him later. And they said, well, how did you come up with the three drugs? Because not a single one of them is what we use for pets. Like, where did you even get that? And he literally said, I didn't do any research. Oh, okay. He said, I just thought about what might be useful. Okay. And that's the protocol that we use for the first 35 years of lethal injection. And are we still using that today? Yes. The first drug isn't made anymore. That was sodium theopentol. And states have replaced that first drug with even worse drugs. So some states are using the three-drug protocol. Some states are using a one-drug protocol. So let me ask you this. So if we, and again, understanding that people and animals are not the same, right? But if we do know how to put down a cat, a dog, a horse, whatever. And I've been in the room when I've had to put down a pet. And it does come across as a very peaceful. They just sort of like drift off to sleep. And it's over pretty quickly. Yes. Why are we not using those same methods to execute people? It's a great question. Yeah. So some states are still using a three-drug protocol. That is how strong the allure of a paralytic is. Something that like it's a get-out-of-jail-free card, right? I was going to say. Whatever's going on underneath there, it's going to look peaceful. So some states are like, love that, not leave it. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Some states, though, have turned to the one-drug pentobarbital, which is what we use on pets. That's also what we use for physician-assisted suicide. And so one might say, okay, then why is everything wrong? And part of the reason for that is that it's actually not the same drugs. So drug manufacturers have put contractual agreements and tracking mechanisms on their drugs. They don't want their drugs being used for this. The PR on that. Oh, it's so bad. It's so bad. I always think of Pfizer, whose motto is life is our life's work. Right. You know, but I'm like, yeah, no, right? And all of the others too. And so what's happened is the states have to go to these compounding pharmacies. Yes. And they're getting a compounded version of the drug. Well, these are little mom and pop shops. And compounding a sterile injectable, they are not set up for that at all. In fact, compounding sterile injectables is literally called high-risk compounding. That's the industry term for it because it's a mess. And so you've got that whole issue. And we haven't even really talked about what compounding pharmacies are willing to do this. And it's all for cash under the table. And then also, here's another one. Like in the animal euthanasia context, you're using veterinarians that are trained. Do you know who is pushing the drugs? I was going to say, I can't imagine a medical provider who's taking a Hippocratic oath is going to be issuing these. Is it like the warden? Is it a bailiff? Like who is this? It's an officer. Non-medical prison guards. Yeah, I was going to say. And they're not doing – like they're doing it from another room, from this little antechamber, through seven feet of tubing. So in the animal euthanasia context, it's bedside. Correct. Right? So you can watch. Yes. Here it's not. It's through seven feet of tubing. And if you ask them, which they have been asked, how do you know how fast to push the plunger? Because if you push it too fast, you're going to blow the vein. All of these bad things happen. And they say, we do it by feel. And the medical professionals are like, there is no feel. There's no need of tubing. But we see these headlines all the time of this state couldn't fulfill an execution because they were unable to source the drug. Or they ran out of the drug. Or no one could make it. Like we see those headlines all the time. And I know that your book really focuses on the ways in which states are moving away from capital punishment, right? That there is a decline in jurors and judges who are convicting. You feel like people don't have the appetite for it? That it's maybe less. So there's a recent headline about Luigi Mangione trial just this week where he is no longer. The judge has ruled that he is not going to qualify for capital punishment. I just think it's an interesting time where the ways in which the means in which the execution is being provided, I guess, done, performed is at odds with sort of where it came from, where this started, right? And the modern day appetite for it. I know as, like you said, a provider in the judiciary, how wrong we are, how many flaws there are in a criminal trial, in a judgment, in a ruling, in that appeal, in the lawyer, in whatever, how many opportunities there are for error. And that's with people's lives at stake. And in a capital punishment trial where there are charges where someone could be charged with capital punishment, that is literally what is being litigated on that day. So what do we do? We're all at odds with this subject, right? I mean, and then we're also thinking about justice for the victims of whoever this person committed a crime, right? Like it really is an ethical ball of wax. And how do we, in like a 21st century context, put the piece of this all together? Like, have you just personally, we don't even have to talk about your book, but like you as a person driving around the country with your sister talking about this, like hearing from these many communities in the South that still perform executions. Like, what do we fucking do with this? I just like left with more questions than answers sometimes. You've packed a lot in there. I'm sorry. No, it's so good. You're just like breaking my brain. But like, let's just like talk about it. Yeah, let's talk about it. So I think one thing that one piece of information that people don't really understand is this error rate and actual innocence. And that's something that we can all get behind as in we shouldn't be executing innocent people. I don't really know of anyone. Actually, Scalia once said this is a cost of doing business. So KM aside, but most people would say that's absolutely unacceptable. And so one of the things to think about is that we've executed slightly more than 1,600 people in the modern era. So since, yeah, since 1976, slightly over 1,600, 16 and maybe 1,640, something like that. And in that period of time, we've had slightly more than 200 exonerations. I was going to say, what was the exoneration rate? And so when you think about that picture, for every eight people that we kill, and I call it secrets of the killing state because we are killing. And the autopsy actually says homicide for cause of death. Wow. Does it? It sure does. This is killing. We just like to use these nice, pretty words instead. But for every eight people we kill, there's one person that the state says, oh, sorry, we got that way wrong. You know, that is an incredible statistic, eight to one. And the National Academy of Sciences came out and was looking at death row and all of the errors. And they did this super fancy regression analysis that was peer reviewed at the highest levels. And they said a conservative estimate is 4% of the people on death row right now are factually innocent. That's one in every 25. And part of the problem, of course, is that they're all saying, it's me, right? And so this is a difficult problem, but just knowing that. And then the other piece, which goes into the victim's side that you were talking about, is aside from actual innocence, there's this error rate. And the error rate nationally is between, I mean, it's between 50 and 70 percent of all death sentences are overturned on appeal. Indiana is 70 percent. I was like, oh, my gosh, seven out of ten. Unbelievable. That's crazy. But even the lower is 50 percent. Right. And the top two reasons are grossly ineffective assistance of counsel and prosecutorial misconduct. Wow. So Brady violations. Oh, Brady violations up the wazoo. Wow. And so, you know, those are, again, those are things that I think, you know, good people on both sides of the aisle would say, well, we can't be doing that. This doesn't make sense. Right. We can't be doing that. And the thing is, it takes a long time to find those errors because those, as you know, are off record errors. Yes. You're not going to find those in the transcript. You have to look behind. Right. I also think a lot of people are out of sight out of mind Oh absolutely These are people who are on death row Right They out of sight out of mind They are incarcerated And from the perspective of a state legislator that someone who murdered someone and is a bad person and therefore is not worthy of my time, attention, energy. Right. Yeah. So tell us what the Brady, what is it, the Brady? Brady violation. Yeah. Let's talk about Brady violations. Yes. Yes. So Brady violation is when a prosecutor hides or doesn't disclose evidence that is favorable to the defense and material, as in there's a reasonable probability that it would have made a difference. Right. So this is not, again, this is not misplaced paperclips. This is stuff that really mattered. It's not like a detail about the victim's hair color. No. It's like serious exonerating evidence that prosecutors have intentionally withheld. Absolutely. Right. You know, and we had one of these cases that went up to the Supreme Court this year. Well, last year, 2025. So this guy was Richard Glossop. And I talk about him in the book because he had a lethal injection challenge. But bottom line is he was convicted of capital murder. He was never the killer. It was always this co-defendant named Sneed. And it was a terrible, I mean, all murders are terrible. But this was a bludgeoning to death of a hotel manager. And Sneed did it. The Commonwealth never said anybody but Sneed did it. They never said Glossop did it. But Sneed said, Glossop paid me to do it. Okay. So the prosecution goes to Glossop and says, we'll give you life without parole if you'll testify against him. We'll go for death for him. Glossop says, I had nothing to do with this. Yeah, I'm innocent. So I'm not taking that. Then they go to Sneed and say, we'll give you life without parole if you'll testify against Glossop. Sneed says, you got it. Glossop goes to trial. He gets convicted. He gets sentenced to death. First trial gets overturned, ineffective assistance of counsel. He's been maintaining his innocence and, you know, he would have been executed after the Supreme Court greenlighted, you know, the lethal injection protocol, except Oklahoma injected the wrong drug into the guy before him. And then they tried to cover that up. And so can you believe this, Michael, the warden, the director, the people from the AG's office, they get called before a grand jury. They get investigated, right? This is crazy town. That would never happen. Yeah. It's a crazy town that you have the, you know, people from prison that are being. The Oklahoma warden being. Yeah. Wow. So he's just waiting. Meanwhile, he's like, I'm innocent. I'm innocent. I'm innocent. Finally, some people hire a law firm. Finally. To say like, can you please look into this? Yeah. Which itself, we're going, well, that's what a court should do. But okay, fine. They do an investigation and they come out and say, there's no way. There's serious, serious problems with this. Also, the prosecutor buried evidence. So when this comes out, the state, I don't know, reluctantly, hands over seven boxes of material that shows they solicited perjury. There's emails saying, you know, there's some problems with this testimony. We need to get to him before he testifies again. These are like serious crimes. This isn't like, oh, I did my job wrong and now it's going to get overturned. These are prosecutors facing jail time for these crimes. Yeah. And, you know, when all of this comes out, the attorney general of the state of Oklahoma confesses error, constitutional error before the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals. And the Court of Criminal Appeals says, sorry, you missed the deadline. Habeas. Procedural default. There's nothing we can do. Oh, my God. Goes up to the Supreme Court. And they love doing that, by the way. They love that. They love just hitting with like, you know what? Oh, the deadline. I'm sorry. You know what? They don't even think, look, discuss the subject of the case. No. It's, oh, they look at the first sheet, deadline's passed, you're out of here. And he's actually innocent. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Can we, sorry, can we just explain to everybody what habeas is? Oh, yeah. Yes. So there's trials and there's the direct appeals that you have. And then after that, There's a system of habeas corpus. There's a state habeas. There's federal habeas. But the bottom line is at that point, it's essentially a civil suit that you are suing the warden for wrongfully holding you. Okay. But it's just a way – This is something that's actually interesting come up recently in the bond proceedings in immigration court. Go on. Because under certain laws through the Trump administration and through a few federal decisions, basically many migrants are being held without bond or parole options for extended periods of time. And these are the headlines you see out of Dilley, Texas. Children protesting children. And so it's the same habeas claims are being invoked by these migrants and their attorneys in federal court. habeas corpus claims for people who are not being afforded bond opportunities as migrants held in detention because you're supposed to get a day in court. You're supposed to go in front of a judge, say, hey, I'm here on asylum. I should be released on bond. But the new Trump administration laws are sort of still getting worked out through the court system. And as a sort of band-aid to that, lawyers are now submitting habeas claims. So that's sort of how it's hit in my world. Okay. So uplifting. Let me ask you this. So for the average person, why is this important? Why should we care about this? Because I can imagine that there are people who are saying for the folks who are guilty, who have committed some heinous crime, and there is a family who is missing a loved one or several loved ones, who cares? Yeah. Right? I mean, who cares? Because, you know, when they were murdering my whatever, they didn't care about that. Why should I care about that person and what their death looks like? Yeah. I mean, that's such a fair question. And I have to say, as a former prosecutor, I think about the victim's family members all the time. I think about them all the time. And interestingly, I met a number of people on this book tour who were surviving family members of slain victims. And one of the things that they said, and then I need to answer your question, but one of the things that they said was, you know, we're told this is going to give us closure. And it's actually the opposite of closure. I can see that. We're waiting 20, 30 years. Mississippi executed a guy this summer on death row for 50 years. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And they've been strung along this whole time. So, but to your question, you know, one thing I would say is people always talk about, well, they deserved it. They deserved it. So why do I care? And I think it's important to remember that, you know, one question is whether the person deserves death. That's only one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is, did the state do what it needs to do to take that, to deserve to take that life? Yes. Right? Like, you can't just grab people. Yes. You deserve it. And so, like, there are things that the state has to do. And so, really, this book is about that question. Okay. And I always think, you know, the untold story of lethal injection is really a story about all of the ways that the state cannot be trusted to take life and all of the ways they have covered it up. Yes. But, you know, there's a whole other question, and this is slightly different, but I think in there, of like, why should we care how they die? Yeah. Right? Because they might have tortured someone. Yeah. And to that, I always think, you know, well, why don't we rape rapists? Right. You know, and I'm not saying like, why don't we let's. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. No, but I kept thinking when you were talking an eye for an eye. Yeah. Is that, is that, is it? And like, I am posing that question. Like I, I have like a very unique opinion on this of, I see all the errors that happen in court. And I'm like, with that, I don't think we should be adjudicating people's lives because I see all the errors. So knowing that it's one in eight are exonerated. So for me, I'm like, if there's even a 1% chance, that's still too much. That is my opinion. But I think it's like a conversation people need to have with themselves, right? Because when you were talking about like family members coming to your book tour and being like, I didn't get the closure I thought I wanted. My first thought was like, you know, and I'm a narcissist. So like, we're always like, this is what I would, this is how I would think about it. And it's like, hey, would that be the closure that I want or need? But also like, who does that make me? Right? Who do I want to be? Right? Is it, would it, I, and I, and I'm putting myself in someone else's shoes and I've never been in this situation before, but I'm like, if I were this hawk who wanted an execution for a loved one who was murdered, would that be the closure I want? What does that say about me? And is there a story of forgiveness here? Like, I can't put myself in these shoes. and like when you were talking about your book i was like my the one word i kept thinking about was accountability and of the state yeah how do we hold the state accountable and that's a lot of what i do as a defense attorney is like a lot of the time i know my client did it and all the evidence says that my job is to stand there and just make sure the constitutional rights aren't violated and that the state is doing what they're supposed to do and we're gonna we'll go down swinging, but you're going down usually, right? If it's a foregone conclusion, it's over. I'm there to make sure your eighth amendment violation, your fifth amendment, your fourth amendment, first, second, like that is my, that's my gig. It's not about what you see on TV, me pulling a rabbit out of a hat, getting this person off with like a loophole and they're running down the street and they're getting, and it's, it's not about that. It's about accountability. And I think people don't understand that, right? Police accountability, prosecutorial, and now state when it comes to lethal injection. So that is my sort of explosive rant about this. No, but I think it's so important to recognize too that surviving family members, I think it's totally understandable and natural to say, I want this person. I'll do it myself. and also torture them. That's why we don't have family members prosecuting people. That's why we have what we call independent prosecutors. Because what you want, it's not wrong. It's just not necessarily what's good for society. But to your question, Melissa, of what if they did torture? And I go back to, well, why don't we rape rapists? Why don't we burn down arsonist homes? And it's not because they don't deserve it in some talionic eye for an eye way. It's because we're a civilized society and we actually, we could get even with them if we did that, but we can't stoop that low. They're the bad guys. So by definition, they can't be the standard for how a civilized society should treat the worst of its members. And it doesn't undo the thing that happened, right? At the end of the day, unfortunately, whether this person is put to death or not, your loved one is gone. At the end of the day, your house has been burnt down, right? And doing those things doesn't undo what the heinous act that happened to your family, to your friends, to your family. And again, to your point, I think it may be trying to remove yourself a little bit and look at what it says about society at large. Yeah, I think so. So do you want to plug your book really quick? You can get it anywhere you get books, straight to camera. This is your camera right here. Um, let's here. We'll give you a copy. Thank you. Give a quick plug of the book. Your van's waiting outside. You have to go. This is the book. You should read it. Um, I think every person should know what the state is doing in their name. Yeah, I think that's true. And, um, it's funded with your money. It's your tax dollars. And, you know, it's not just about torturous executions and made up science. It's also about smuggling drugs across the border. Yes. I'm taking $15,000 in cash, putting it in a suitcase. Okay, well, I told you don't use my name. But, you know, some of this stuff, I mean, it's criminal. And I'll be a quote for the next book. Okay, sounds good. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you for coming. This was a great conversation. Yeah, thank you. We'll be right back with Tales from the DMs. Welcome back to Brief Recess. This is Tales from the DMs. We're going to talk about all the crazy, filthy, nasty, wild, wicked, slutty things you send us straight to my DMs. You are very excited about this. I know when I get the little view photo message from someone on Instagram, I'm like, I'm not looking at that. Your mouth is watering. Yeah. I love a good salacious comment. We've gotten crazy. We've got some awesome comments on our podcast. I thought it would be fun. Every episode, we're going to read a comment from Apple or Spotify or YouTube on Tales from the DMS. We're going to start adding that in. So add your comments to the show. Review the show. And Melissa is going to read them. Go for it. Give us a good one. I have not heard any of these. So from the Millennial Failure. Love that. This is what the Millennial Failure says. Your Honor, this podcast is critically underwatched on YouTube. These are highly intelligent, hilarious, engaging, and incredibly attractive hosts. If you're not watching, you're missing out. Thank you, The Millennial Failure. Someone tell my husband, incredibly attractive. I didn't need it to just be like a compliment fest, but I'll take it. Oh, what? I'll take it. I will take that every time. Everyone. Do I do another one? Do another one. from episode 112 don lemon slash epstein from at karen 27 30 karen says i also had a nun teach us sex ed wait this is a good one this is a good one this is a good one everyone talking about action park do you remember that episode of course that was the one People were coming up to me in the club. Drink in hand. I was at Action Park. This comment. The comment is from DisabledDanny96. Oh, by the way, shout out to DisabledDanny96 who comments on everything on YouTube. Get in my actual DMs, Danny. He says, everyone that designed the slides were on cocaine. It was the 80s. It was the 80s. Action Park. Okay, CJ, roll the clip. we've got a tail from the DM. We got a question. Someone called in with a question for us. Just a quick question. What advice would you give to somebody who's interested, very basically interested in immigration law, but doesn't necessarily have the time to commit to pursuing a full degree? I seem to be stuck in a place that wants to do more. I get this question a lot about how non-lawyers can get involved. They want to go to law school. They don't have time. My answer is always find the nonprofit in your area that's doing this work because the nonprofits really are the backbone. This person, I did a little research. I think they're from the Bay Area. And I found a few nonprofits that I know there. Immigration Institute of the Bay Area is a great one. They're service providers. So is La Raza, and that is a San Francisco Mission District legacy organization. So wherever you are, even if you're not in the Bay Area, there's usually a nearby nonprofit doing that work. And you know your skill set better than I do. So if you're really good at communications or you're really good at social media or you're really good at writing, like talk to the nonprofit. Maybe there's a job there. Maybe there's volunteer hours there where you can get involved and do that work with your specific skill set. I say it all the time. So many people support my work. And just for me to get to the courtroom. Someone had to be the translator. Right. Someone is the stenographer. Someone is the researcher. Like there's so many people behind me and the work. And then I get all the credit. And we're going to put the links to the nonprofits that Michael mentioned in our show notes that you have access to them. I'll give this to CJ right now. And everybody, like I always say, while Michael is a lawyer, he's not your lawyer. Unfortunately. Unless you hire me. you said that really in a really gross way unless you oh i said i did say it like a lady of the night why is it a lady of the night you hire me it could be a person of the night that's true i've been of the night thank you for watching brief recess i'm michael foote i am melissa i'll see you in court not me i'll see you in the streets probably king in a car This has been an Exactly Right production recorded at iHeart Studios, hosted by me, Michael Foote. And me, Melissa Malbranch. Our producer is CJ Ferroni. This episode was edited by Nicholas Gallucci. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner. Our theme song was composed by Tom Breivogel with artwork from Charlotte Delarue and Vanessa Lilac, with photography by Brad Obono. Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer. You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy Department or on TikTok at Michael Foote. And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Malbranch. Got legal questions? Reach out at briefrecess at exactlyrightmedia.com. Listen to Brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we're a podcast with video. Search for Brief Recess on YouTube. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? I've just been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.