American Democracy Under Occupation

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I'll tell you, I've been teaching for 25 years, and for 25 years we've had lockdowns, teaching kids about, you know, mass shootings in schools. But I think in my head, I never thought it would be like our own government that we had to try to protect ourselves from or to protect our children from.

0:16

From the Atlantic, this is Autocracy in America. I'm Ann Applebaum. This season, I've been examining how the Trump White House is rewriting the rules of US Politics and talking to Americans whose lives have been changed as a result. Today we're bringing you an extra episode that takes a look at what opposition to this new normal looks like on the ground level. When heavily armed agents of the federal government arrived in Minneapolis, the residents of Minneapolis and St. Paul met those federal forces with surprising strength. For this episode, I spoke to journalist Robert Worth, a contributing writer at the Atlantic. He's just been to Minneapolis, where he observed the tactics of the federal agents and the response of Minnesotans. He and I both saw an eerie resemblance to other protest movements that we've witnessed in other parts of the world. First, though, here's some more from the people of the Twin Cities explaining how and why they were moved to act.

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My name is Amanda Bauer. I am an elementary music teacher in a small elementary school. About 500 or so students from places all over the world, primarily Hispanic and Latin American countries, and then a lot of Somali families, too. The very first day back of break, ICE was at our school and circling the blocks and parked across the street, the kids didn't feel safe. So we kind of started walking kids home to their apartments and places in the neighborhood. And it was Wednesday exactly right when we dismissed that ice hopped out of their vehicles with all of their riot gear on and were heading over to the apartments across the street from our school. So we had to lock down and keep the kids inside. And it happened fast enough that, you know, we had a student who was looking out the window and saw them break into his apartment and just sobbed, that's my house. That's my home. And we shut the blinds, but it was too late. Like, he saw it and he'll never unsee it. I don't know from the other perspective or people who think that this is an acceptable form of trauma for a child to have to experience that. The count today is we have 40 students who aren't coming anymore because of not feeling safe. People here have a civic life. Emilia Gonzalez Avalos Executive DIRECTOR of Unidos you know, people in your caucus, in your neighborhood, like, people show up to city council meetings here in Minnesota. Guess what we're going to use when they try to come after Minnesotans? We're going to use civil life, and we're going to make more of it. We're going to recruit more people. This is just a very Minnesotan thing we do.

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I don't know how other people react when they get bullied, but I don't back down when I get bullied. I fight harder. And that's. Everyone I see out here is like, what do you think? We're going to quit. We live here. My name is Chad. I am a father of2 from St. Paul. Yesterday, ICE agent sitting in a white car idling there on my block, right? Four houses down. I go out and take a picture of his license plate and a picture of him. We're not protesters, we're protectors. I don't want to be out in my street yesterday blowing a goddamn whistle because there's an adopted brown kid down there. They hid her in the basement yesterday. That's what I don't think anyone that's not living here right now understands is that they want to make it out to be like this bunch of lunatics in the street. Like it's just fucking normal people that don't want to see their neighbor get beat up. And protecting my neighbors.

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My name is Ibrahim. Born and raised in Minnesota. US Citizen. Lived here all my life. I just graduated. I just graduated college. Cybersecurity. I know coming outside, there's a risk. There's a risk to it, you know, especially me being a Somali male, you know, Muslim guy, black skinned. But I feel like, you know, our community has united a bit more. People coming to our mosques on Fridays, you know, white people. And I know that people do show up to support the community. You know, we support one another and we're all in this together.

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I was in Egypt during the Arab Spring. You go out, you show up. Dar. Dar Zinga Zinga er Hel. Door to door, street to street, leave, you know. My name is Sara Myron. I'm a Moroccan American. My great, great grandfather fought in the Civil War for the Wisconsin 11th Infantry. To achieve the American dream, we put down the Confederates. We're gonna put these ICE guys down too. Not with Force, but like legally with protests and with the will of the people.

5:29

Robert, welcome.

6:02

Thank you for having me.

6:03

We have both been in authoritarian countries where demonstrators are protesting in an atmosphere of fear and repression. Minneapolis isn't exactly Tahrir Square or the Ukrainian Maidan or the Hong Kong democracy movement, but it actually has more in common with those demonstrations than most Americans want to acknowledge. You know, in each place, demonstrators faced hostile police who used surveillance technology, who threatened violence, and as a result, they had to create new means of organization and sometimes new kinds of protests. You were in Minnesota recently. Tell me about what you saw and tell me how you understand Minnesota was within the context of these other moments and movements.

6:04

What I saw was a combination of some of the clashes with protesters and ICE agents, including one stop that got quite violent where a six car convoy showed up outside a health center. And the agents, they had arrested a couple of people, some protesters as well. The next thing we know, people are getting sprayed in the face, tear gas. But beyond that, I spent a lot of time talking to people in the Twin Cities about what they had experienced at their local schools, in their neighborhoods. I think often it's easy to caricature this as protesters who believe in sanctuary cities, who believe in open borders, versus these agents who were just enforcing the law. I don't think that's an accurate picture at all. What you have is a community that feels that whatever their views may be on immigration, there's a kind of assault on their entire community in a variety of ways, and they wanted to push back on that.

6:53

Let's talk a little bit about the tactics used by federal agents in the United States, some of which are very new in this country, but are more common overseas. So I'm thinking about surveillance, for one. For example, photographing license plates using facial recognition software. Did you see those tactics in use and did you see people reacting to them or finding ways of compensating for them?

7:47

Absolutely. What is striking, you know, many people go to these encounters to monitor them, to take pictures. Everybody's holding up a cell phone on the assumption that, you know, if someone is going to be arrested, they want there to be a record for potential use in legal proceedings. But the agents themselves are also photographing everybody. And we all now know that they have technology, facial recognition technology. Everybody feels that they are in potential danger just by being anywhere near these things. And what you also see is a lot of organization. You know, they use tear V very liberally. And there are always medics in the group who are ready and prepared to Help people out, not just with the tear gas, but people who've been beaten, thrown to the ground, that kind of thing.

8:13

Medics among the protesters, you mean?

8:55

Yes, exactly. So there's a lot of organization. And, you know, this does, for me, evoke some of the things I've seen overseas. I covered the 2009 green movement in Iran, which was probably the first major insurrection where social media was used to organize. And then on a much, much larger scale in 2011 with the Arab Upris, when, again, social media was used to evade that kind of surveillance and to organize the protests.

8:57

And let me add other things that are new. One is the dress and arms and attitude of ICE and the other federal agents, people dressed like they were in Fallujah, you know, or in southern Afghanistan, lawlessness. So people are entering homes and other buildings without a warrant, dragging people off the street based on nothing except for their skin color. These things feel very un American, but again, they're common in other places. Let's walk through some of the ways in which the protesters and some of the victims may be learning to react. I was very struck in your writing and in the writing of other people by the use of pseudonyms, encrypted messaging platforms. Did you see any of that, and did that remind you of things you'd seen, whether in Iran or elsewhere?

9:21

Very much so. I traveled to the encounter I described earlier with someone who was using signal. And these are neighborhood groups, signal groups. Everybody's using pseudonyms for the reason you mentioned. They all fear that the government and could come after them in unaccountable ways. I think the level of violence is shocking, just seeing these heavily armed people, but also the flagrant absence of what we think of as efforts by the police or any other uniformed group in the US Government officials to avoid violence. I mean, the killing of Alex Preddy. I've seen people who've been in the military look at those videos and say, those people are not trained properly at all. And I think that kind of information spreads very quickly. And there's a feeling of not only that you're vulnerable to state violence, but there's a complete lack of accountability for it.

10:08

One of the features of the Hong Kong democracy movement was that the protesters knew that there were cameras everywhere and they were being recorded. And so they started wearing masks. And they started also trying to always act in unpredictable ways. They would show up in different parts of the city at different times, so. So that there were no patterns, so that they couldn't be followed. I mean, did you see anything like.

10:57

That in Minnesota, certainly people wearing masks, although it's a little bit hard to say because the weather was, you know, 10 below zero sometimes. And people had curves. Exactly. People had to protect themselves in any way they could. I certainly saw techniques that reminded me of what I saw in, you know, the Arab uprisings. Number one, you know, a deliberate effort, a disciplined effort to avoid violence even when the protesters are being attacked. A leaderless structure organized by cells so that it would be harder to identify people. That was certainly going on also.

11:17

Very like Hong Kong, actually. To make sure that there was nobody who could be identified as a leader and therefore picked up.

11:51

Exactly. And that goes back to people who have written about this from early on, like the American political scientist Gene Sharp, who wrote a book that advocated all of these methods. His work was influential for processors in Bosnia and Asia, as you mentioned, and certainly in Iran and across the Middle East.

11:58

Yeah. He had a belief that there were, if you had people in sufficient numbers protesting in ways that were peaceful, that they could eventually move the authorities through their demonstration of resolve and resilience. Is that what people in Minnesota believe?

12:16

I think they do. I spoke to a number who really felt that they could be a model in the way that they were confronting the authorities. I heard some woman say, I'm glad that Minneapolis gets to tame the federal beast. I think that was maybe a little over optimistic that the federal beast is not easy to tame. But what she meant was, we hope people see what we're doing and that they do something similar in their own towns.

12:34

I also wanted to talk about the significance of the telephone video recordings. I think it's the first time I remember maybe there are a couple earlier, smaller instances, but that people in those numbers are using their phones, high quality videos to record the behavior of federal agents. And obviously if there weren't such high quality videos, then we wouldn't know what happened to Alex Preddy or Renee Goode.

12:59

You know, it was really striking to see, for instance, the convoy that I mentioned before where ICE stopped and was arresting people. Dozens and dozens of people surround it and pretty much all holding up their cell phones. It at first seemed kind of overkill to me. Maybe each of these people thinks they are going to do the video that matters. But after the killing of Alex Preddy, it became clear to me, no, no, that's essential. And that what we're seeing is multiple different angles that make it much easier to refute a false narrative that got put out in this case right away by the government. I think what's different now, the proliferation of phones and of media like that and photography. So that, you know, while in 2011, say in Egypt, you might be lucky if one protester had gotten a video of someone being attacked, tortured, killed, neither would potentially have that from many different angles. And it's a much more effective tool.

13:23

Although it's interesting, I mean, the way you talk about it, it's clear that it's also a tool against something else that's new in America, which is the assumption that the state will lie, there will be an act of violence committed and and then there will be lies told about it. And we need to have an answer to that. So people are already mentally preparing for the administration to lie.

14:13

You know, in the Middle east, everybody expects it. It's part of what they were protesting against. And I think that's a frightening and new aspect of what's going on.

14:33

You alluded to this a bit earlier, but is this a movement with a set of practices that can move beyond Minnesota, do you think, or is it specific to this place with its particular traditions?

14:42

Minnesota definitely has an old tradition of mutual aid and of neighborhood organizing. And I think that got more intense after the George Floyd protests. And I've made this point before, but just to be clear, it's not just a question of progressives who wanted to protest at that time in 2020, after the killing of George Floyd. I think at that time there was so much going on. There were right wing provocateurs coming to town, there were opportunistic criminals that many of the people I spoke to said, we simply want to keep ourselves safe, we want to protect ourselves. And that was the real inspiration for bolstering those networks. Whether that can be replicated, I don't know, but I suspect yes is the answer because people are aware now and people are frightened. People don't want to see this. I mean, people as far away as Italy are saying we don't want ice in our town. And my guess is yes, you're going to see that kind of thing being replicated.

14:54

More on that after the break. Robert? After Preddy was killed, there was initially a rush by the Trump administration, as we said, to defend the federal agents and to blame him. But then there was a blowback. People did see the protesters and people did look at the video, citizens and politicians alike. And the administration did withdraw the figurehead of these raids. The Border Patrol's commander at large, Greg Bovino, who has returned to his previous post, and then just a few hours before we taped this conversation, the administration said it would pull about a quarter of the federal agents out of the state. What do you make of those developments? Did the protesters win?

15:47

I think you can say there is some kind of victory there. It's still hard to say what it all amounts to. But I think there's no question that the proliferation of those videos being seen by everybody. And one little thing I want to mention is that Chris Mattel, who was running for governor as a Republican, who, by the way, is a lawyer who represents cops, that's what he does, and is, you know, very much, one assumes, involved in that community, came out, he canceled his run, and he came out and taped a video in which he said, as a Republican, I can't afford to be associated with this stuff. The way that ICE is carrying out its campaign is not acceptable. And I couldn't help thinking that that's going to ramify across the country. It's not just about Democrats.

16:40

I mean, so that also, historically was the goal of peaceful protests, starting with Mahatma Gandhi and going through our civil rights movement and up through the Ukrainian Maidan and others, was to move ordinary people who aren't involved in politics. So the point is not to, as you say, to get a bunch of progressives to demonstrate their anger, but to carry out actions that are bringing a wider part of the population, even people who aren't. So in a way, we can see this happening in Minnesota.

17:20

I think so. I spoke to people of various different backgrounds, sort of moderate suburban, elderly people, not at all activists. I think there's a widespread sense that whatever one's political beliefs, the way that ICE is behaving is just unacceptable and un American.

17:50

What do you think these few weeks tell us about the administration's broader plans? What's ICE really for, beyond the arrest and deportations? Is it performative cruelty? Is the idea to create fear among the population? Is it some other goal? I mean, it seems to me that just focusing on this as an immigration issue misses a large part of what ICE is doing. If you just wanted to identify immigrants, you wouldn't even, for example, need policemen who are armed. The only reason to arm people looking like they're ready to take on ISIS is to create fear and terror. And that must have a purpose. What's your view of that?

18:09

I do think there's some performative cruelty. I think there's an effort to intimidate people. There's that now famous clip of video, and the agent says something like, and this is just after the killing of Renee Goode. Haven't you learned? Haven't you learned, in other words, we just killed someone, you know, stay the hell away from people like us and let us do our work. So I think there's an effort to spread fear. And again, that very much echoes with my experience covering these insurrections in the Middle East. But what strikes me also is that this is backfiring. If their goal is, as they say, to arrest as many illegal migrants as possible, one can't help thinking that for a lot of Americans, immigration enforcement writ large is now going to be associated with Gestapo like tactics. And this is not the first time that the administration has set out a goal and then proceeded to enforce it in the most club footed way possible. So their tactics really baffle their strategy.

18:49

In each of our episodes this season, we've looked ahead to the midterm elections because I and not I alone and many other people think that a lot of what we're seeing is maybe a test run for what could happen in November. And we actually got a data point on that this week in Minnesota because there were precinct caucuses held across the state. Members of the public gathered to discuss platform issues and nominate delegates for future conventions. And we talked with some residents and volunteers who attended one caucus at a high school in south Minneapolis. So let's listen to that.

19:46

We have one door to the high school that is unlocked. We have a de escalation group that is here and we have ICE watch in the parking lot. We have never had to have stuff like that in past years. My name is Dex Anderson. I am the site lead for the caucuses here and I am a volunteer. I wish we had been able to pivot to virtual or contactless caucuses, which is what we did under the pandemic. But the state party did not make the decision about that beforehand. So we did everything we could tonight to make sure that our neighbors are safe.

20:20

My name is Michael Reif. I'm part of the DFL Lawyers Committee. We're here today just making sure that if we see ICE presence that we remind them that they're not welcome without a judicial warrant and that we're ready to respond if we need to. And so this is part of the kind of brave new world that we're in right now.

20:54

I'm Jennifer Arnold. I'm going to be helping convene the caucus for my area. I know that a lot of my neighbors aren't coming. I know that because last year I supported a bunch of folks to participate in the caucus process who hadn't participated before, who speak Spanish. I accompanied folks and interpreted. And this year, none of those people are going to participate. There is added security, but I would say no. There was nothing we could do to make it safe as long as they had to leave their homes to get here. How can you have democracy under occupation? That's also pretty reminiscent of things we've probably both seen before. You know, when you have armed people on the street, then people are afraid to come out, Even people who have the right to vote, even people who are citizens. The presence or the expectation of violence scares people away from democracy. It sounds like people in Minnesota have been trying to do their best and keep these caucuses safe. But what could this suggest about what democratic participation in the United States might look like in the months ahead? I mean, that's little D Democrat. I mean, not participation in the Democratic Party. But could this kind of military presence on the street scare people from voting?

21:14

I think it could. And one little indicator there. When I was in Minneapolis, I was all over the city, and I saw very few black faith, very few brown faces in a city with a substantial minority population. And I think that's because so many of them are afraid to come out. They were hiding inside their houses. They were having groceries delivered to them by their neighbors. And as we heard on that tape, many of them would be frightened to come out. And so if this gets replicated, if there's a spreading of feelings of fear, the most vulnerable people will be frightened to turn out. And on the broader point, you know, you and I have covered referenda in dictatorships in places where people are ostensibly allowed to come out and have their voices heard. But in fact, they know, number one, that they're surrounded by soldiers who makes them feel. No doubt that makes them feel terrified. Number two, they don't trust that their vote is private. And they probably feel that if they don't pull the right lever, someone's gonna come knocking on their door that night. I don't think we're anywhere near that here. But when I was in Minneapolis, I did speak to people who said that after some kind of confrontation with ice, the agents would then follow, drive, follow them back to their houses, not to bang on the doors or anything, but just as an intimidation tactic to let them know we know where you live. Just the very fact that they were willing to do that was shocking. The very fact that fear is now entering into the political process, the caucus process, is a troubling one, it's true.

22:27

And this may be something that a lot of Americans don't know. Just the act of Voting doesn't make democracy. So the vote itself alone isn't enough. It's about the preparation for the vote, the atmosphere in which it takes place, the way in which candidates are chosen. Of course, it's the way the votes are counted, which is another issue. But I think a lot of people have a very simple idea of what it means to be a democracy. But actually you need a level playing field. You know, you need people to have a sense that the vote was fair and that the process is fair. And what worries me is that this use of armed people on the streets is one of several ways in which we could lose that.

23:54

It's a frightening thought. And elections become charades in a lot of autocratic countries. They are a way for the regime to maintain some kind of facade of legitimacy. But very few people actually feel that they're exercising their right to vote when they go out on these referendum.

24:39

Robert Worth, thank you.

25:00

It's a pleasure.

25:01

This episode of Autocracy in America was produced by Natalie Brennan and Jocelyn Frank with additional reporting from Minneapolis from Jocelyn Frank, editing by Dave Shaw. Rob Smirciak engineered and provided original music, fact checking by Enna Alvarado and Sam Fentress. Claudine Ebayd is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andre Valdez is our managing editor. I'm Ann Applebau.

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