443-Tips and Tricks to Get More from Your Greenhouse-Encore Presentation

Hey everybody, it's Joe here and in this week's Encore episode we're heading back inside the greenhouse for a look at what I learned after my very first year as a greenhouse owner. If you've ever dreamed of having your own greenhouse or perhaps you already have one but you're curious about someone else's trials and tribulations, like mine, this one's for you because I'm sharing the behind the scenes real world lessons that only show up after a year of living with one. And so we'll talk about what I wish I'd known before it arrived, like zoning setbacks and permits and how I nearly poured my greenhouse pad in the wrong spot, which you can't undo once it's done. And you'll hear how I chose my greenhouse, like aesthetics and airflow and function, and why all that mattered plus the add-ons that made the biggest difference from electrical to extra windows and fans. And then I'll dig into the science and surprises of actually growing in it, how fast seedlings took off and the challenges of managing heat and cold, sometimes in the same day, and the fascinating temperature swings that can completely change how plants grow. And of course, I'll share a few of the unexpected aha moments, like what happens when you don't debug plants before moving them in for the winter. So join me for this Encore episode because it's packed with greenhouse insights, mistakes, and success stories to help you plan smarter for your own growing season. I hope you enjoy. Hi, everybody. This is Joe Lample, the Joe Behind Joe Gardener, and welcome to The Joe Gardener Show. Today's episode is a follow-up from two shows ago when I interviewed Sherry George, my mentor for greenhouse gardening and growing. And it was such an interesting and information-packed episode on the things that you need to know if you are ever going to have a greenhouse or think that you might want one. What are the considerations for what greenhouse do you buy and when you do, what do you need to know? Because she really covered the basics and she's been at it for years. But now I've been at it for one year. I just passed my 12-month anniversary as a first-year greenhouse owner and grower in January and has been an eye-opener. And I've learned so much. And so as I mentioned in that episode, today I wanted to share with you my experience in looking back over these past 12 months on everything that I've learned, or at least a lot of what I learned, or the main aha's and things I want you to know about based on my experience so far. And I am continuing to learn. I'm just scratching the surface so far, but it's just been amazing at the new opportunities that have presented themselves by having a greenhouse. So that's what I want to share with you today. And as we do, thanks to our sponsor for today's episode, the Ultimate Gardening Sheet. You know, one of the best parts of creating the Ultimate Gardening Sheet is hearing back from many of you who are now using it every day. I co-created it because I knew that if I had a custom way to comfortably and securely carry my three essential tools, my pruners, soil knife, and micro snips, it would make gardening more efficient, safer, and frankly, more enjoyable. And many of you agree. Janet wrote to tell me, I finally have a safe, secure place for my pruners and knife, and I feel more organized than ever. Tom told me, I bought a second sheath, one for me and now one for my wife, so we no longer have to quibble over who gets the good sheath when we head to the garden. I love stories like that because this sheath was co-created by a gardener, me, for gardeners, you. It keeps your essentials right where you need them. No more misplaced tools or accidents waiting to happen. Check it out for yourself at joegardener.com slash UGS. That's joegardener.com slash UGS. All right, we are back. Now, fashion your sheath belts because there's a lot of information here. The first thing I want to talk about, and this was something that Sherri mentioned in her podcast, and of course, not having a greenhouse yet. I couldn't have a direct relationship to what she said, but now I do. When she said, before you ever get your greenhouse, make sure that you check out all the local ordinances or the homeowners association or the covenants and restrictions that may be there that speak to whether or not you can even have a greenhouse. If you can, where can you put it and where can't you put it on your property? I didn't really think much about that yet, but prior to getting my greenhouse, a year prior to that, I was already in the works of expecting that I was going to have it in a matter of weeks because the greenhouse I have, and I'll share more about this in a minute, comes delivered, fully assembled, and ready to place on the spot that you've designated for it. In my case, I said, okay, this is where I need it to be. I looked it on my whole property. I looked at the exposure with the tree canopy, and where was it going to get the best sun, and where was that flat level spot? Where was it convenient? Other considerations, close to my garden, for example. I began the plans, but I did at least have the foresight to say, maybe I ought to apply for a permit for this, for my city, to make sure there are no snags. I would hate to have installed it and then find out after the fact that I can't have it there. That would be terrible. So I did fill out the application, and I sent it in. And a few weeks went by, and I never heard anything. And all of a sudden, I got a call from the company I had contracted for the pad where I was going to place my greenhouse. I wanted a nice, solid, concrete pad as a footprint for it. And on a Friday afternoon, they contacted me, and this is back in January a year ago, and said, hey, we're going to come on Monday and pour that pad. And I said, well, I haven't even heard back from my city council yet, or from the city, about approving my application for this. And they said, well, we can put it off, but if we do, we don't know when we can come back, and we don't know if we can get the concrete, because it's in high demand and short supply, and we're packed with our deliveries and so forth, and so we don't know when we can get back to you. And that was a concern to me, because I needed this greenhouse in place in time for the seed starting and seedling season, because I was planning on selling all my seedlings that I was going to grow out in the greenhouse last year. So that changed everything in my sense of urgency, and it's just taking a chance and saying, OK, guys, come on out, and I'll hope for the best when I finally hear back from the city with a response to my application. So the guys came out, pour the pad. It was beautiful, and that was on a Monday. And on a Wednesday, two days later, I finally got my application back, or the response back, from the city to my application for adding the greenhouse. And the one thing that they said that really stuck out to me was, make sure that this greenhouse is at least 50 feet from the property line. And I thought, huh, I didn't really check that out. I didn't really know where my property line was. And when I sent them my application, they asked you to send drawings and so forth. So I plotted out approximately where my greenhouse pad was going to be. And when they saw that, they clarified it needed to be 50 feet away or more from the property line. So when I went out and measured it, it wasn't. It was only 20 feet from the property line. The pad was already poured. I couldn't undo that. So now I had a big issue. And what it was was I had to apply for a zoning variance, which is a very big deal in my city. They don't like to grant zoning variances unless you can prove hardship. And hardship is a very subjective case to present to convince the zoning board that you truly have a hardship because that can be financial, but they say it shouldn't be financial. It should be other things. So anyway, 10 months of work to build my case. You know, I felt like I was a lawyer building a big case with lots of documentation, overhead drone shots of the situation and why my greenhouse had to be in the one spot where I had picked. And it really did have to be that. I wasn't messing around with that. But I have five acres. And so when the zoning board is looking at my property and they're looking down on it, seeing all this other land, of course, the natural question is, why can't it be somewhere else that isn't within the setback area? But that was the case that I had to prove. And I was already warned that it was my chances were very low of getting them to get on board with approving my application for a zoning variance. But long story short, I did my homework. I had some great help. Peter Langham, a good friend of mine, who's a landscape architect, jumped in to help me. And he was a godsend because he really provided his expert drawings and advice. And he helped me rehearse my spiel to the board the day of the appearance in front of all of the council members. So it was very stressful all that time. But in the end, I got unanimously approved. But the takeaway from this is that if you're considering a greenhouse, and especially if you live in an HOA or a city that has pretty restrictive zoning guidelines, you should do the same thing in applying first and making sure you've got a green light. Or as I say, cleared for takeoff before you invest any money or time or energy in being invested or vested in this project. Because it'll break your heart as I was worried it would me if they denied it. Because I didn't know what I was going to do. And I didn't have a plan B. But doing your homework and anticipating every possible question that can come up from the board if that's who you're going before or the homeowners association, whoever that may be, so that when they ask you those questions, you are prepared with a rock solid response that is irrefutable. And that's what I think was the major reason for my success and ability to get this approved where it was. So first things first, you can dream about a greenhouse until the cows come home just like I have. But don't get right up to the water and then find out you can't drink it. You got to be ready for doing your homework. Okay, that's the first step, the most important step of all. Okay, so how did I pick the greenhouse that I have? There are so many choices out there, as Sherri mentioned in her podcast and she listed some of her favorite companies and the pros and cons of the different materials that you can use. And in my case, you know, I've wanted a greenhouse for decades and I've been on my property here for 12 years and it's just perfect for a greenhouse and it compliments my garden. But I hadn't settled on one that I wanted for a few reasons. But the main reason was for me, aesthetics, I wanted it and needed it in my case because my garden is, you know, kind of, well, it's on TV for my television show and it's, it appears a lot. So I wanted the greenhouse to kind of tie in nicely aesthetically with the garden and the house and the property. And some do that better than others, some, some styles and designs. That's why I was still holding off because I felt like the one I wanted was out there, but I just hadn't found it yet. And then one day I was looking at a poster video from Jill McShihie of the Beginning Gardeners podcast and she was in her greenhouse and I looked at that and I said, that's it. That's the one I want. So I got in touch with Jill and I asked her who makes that greenhouse and then I followed up with the company and next thing you know, I was dead set. That was the one I was going to get. With any greenhouse company, they're going to have options and you're going to do your homework and decide, you know, what you want and then what options cost what if, you know, you want to add on to the basic model and what you need. So I contacted the company and actually ended up conversing with the owner of the company, Travis Yoder. My greenhouse is a Yoder built greenhouse. That's the name and Travis Yoder is the founder and owner of the company and his wife, Angela. And so we got to talking on a zoom call one day because I'm getting ready to get this greenhouse and I thought I wanted a 12 foot by 24 foot greenhouse and keep in mind again, these come fully assembled, delivered and they're ready to go. They just place them on your property. So aesthetically, I thought that was a good proportion, you know, a two to one ratio on the footprint would look really nice. And when I said that to Travis, I think I want your 12 by 24. He said, no, you don't. I said, what do you mean? He said, you're going to want bigger. And I'm like, really? And he said, yeah, I think 12 by 32, which is the biggest one they can deliver from, you know, Arkansas to Georgia because of the DOT requirements and restrictions. But he said, that's what you're going to want. And he was right because had he let me tell him I wanted a 12 by 24 and then that's what I had delivered. I would have regretted it. And here's the thing you always, always hear. And I think Sherri mentioned this in her podcast was that there has never been a time where a greenhouse owner has said, oh, I wish I had a smaller greenhouse. But conversely, pretty much every greenhouse owner ultimately says, I wish I had a bigger greenhouse no matter how big their greenhouse is. And in my case, a 12 foot by 32 foot greenhouse sounds and looks huge when it's empty. It's a it's a nice sized structure. No doubt about it. But do you know, I quickly filled it up to the point where I literally had no room for one more seed starting tray in the entire greenhouse. And that greenhouse had all the extra benches and tables that I could put into that. And we'll talk about that in a minute. But every surface was covered not only on the top layer, but each table and bench had a sub layer, an under shelf and every one of those was completely full too. And I was wishing for a larger greenhouse. Now 12 by 32 is right for me. And you know, at some point you got to draw the line. But that was the biggest one I could get. So it's easy to not feel like I need to trade up for a bigger one because I can't anyway. So aesthetics, mine is wood based. It has a wood floor. It has wood sides halfway up. And then it has the polycarbonate. It has windows. And then the top, of course, is is the double polycarbonate. And it's beautiful. And it looks, it really does blend in nicely with the aesthetics of this farm. So that was a big deal for me. But aside from that quality, of course, is a very big deal. So as I'm doing my homework and the research and reading the reviews and the comments from the prior Yoderbilt greenhouse owners, they were over the top enthusiastic and happy five star reviews with their decision to have that greenhouse and no regrets. And there were a number of people that had upgraded to a bigger one or they bought a second one or they handed down their smaller one to their children and they ended up getting a bigger one for themselves. So clearly these were happy greenhouse growers and owners that had the Yoderbilt design as well. So I knew this was the right one for me for those reasons. And then I mentioned that you should do your homework in deciding what options you want for your greenhouse. And in my case, there's a lot included on the basic model. But there were things that I knew that I wanted that would be options or add-ons, such as those tables and benches I just mentioned. The greenhouse is priced for the greenhouse, but they also offer the tables and the benches because you got to have something to put your seed trays on or your pots on when you're in there working. Now, of course, if you're handy, you can build those yourself. I'm not particularly handy, nor do I have the time. And because they build these things all the time, I said, that is perfect. You please do that and bring those with you. So I got my tables and my benches from them. So everything was ready to go when it got here. And I didn't have to think about where am I going to put all this stuff in the greenhouse? Because it was included. But what's not included in the base model is an electrical package. So if you want to be able to plug in things like germination mats or fans or heaters, you're either going to need to run an extension cord, which is not a recommended practice, or hire an electrician once the greenhouse is there. And then who knows if they're going to do it right? Presumably they do, but that's not always the case. But once again, because Yoderbill has that option and they install the electrical package every day in many of the greenhouses they build, why wouldn't I want to do that if I knew I needed electricity in there? So I did that. I also knew that I wanted ceiling fans in the greenhouse to help move the airflow. And that's an option. So I was able to clarify that. And then speaking of airflow, because I know how important that is for the health of the plants and to minimize disease, I wanted extra windows because the base models come with windows, but not as many as I wanted. But I was able to specify I wanted one every four feet. And so that gave me eight windows on each side, plus three in the back. And now I have great airflow from the front to the back and side to side, plus have the ceiling fans. And it makes a world of difference. But of course you pay extra for that. But to me, it's worth it because a greenhouse is a decision that probably is going to last you your lifetime. And you want to do it right. You don't want to regret or try to rig it after the fact. And that's my advice anyway. And I have no regrets on the decisions that I've made so far. But I feel like I made some very smart choices right at the top. And now a year later, looking back, I am so happy that I added the electrical and the extra windows and the ceiling fans and got the tables and the benches. Now one thing I have not done that I thought I was going to do was run water out to the greenhouse. So that would have been something I would have hired a plumber to do. And I stubbed the pad that the greenhouse would sit on for being able to add water into the greenhouse. And when I got the quote for what it would cost me to tap into the main water source and then bore under the driveway and down to the greenhouse, it was going to be $5,000. And there was no way I was going to spend $5,000 for that when I could run a hose in there or fill watering cans and bring them in. I mean, it just is no big deal. And looking back on it now, I am so happy I did not bite the bullet. Now would I enjoy water in the greenhouse at the flip of a valve? Yes, I would. But I don't miss doing what I'm doing now and my plants are happy and frankly, they don't need water that much, which is interesting. The other thing I mentioned was that my greenhouse has wood floors and wood sides. So that is a consideration also when you're watering, you know, if you are not careful and you're spilling water or you're having misting systems or something that is going to constantly keep the inside of the greenhouse wet. That is a consideration. And so for me, even though all of the wood is treated and I have interlocking floor mats, we'll talk about that in a second that catch a lot of that water, it's not been an issue for me and I am careful with the watering. So that's fine. Now you could stain it and you could put, you know, a water sealant on it if you wanted to, but when it's pressure treated and it's rarely subjected to water, it's going to outlast me anyway. So that's my rationale there. And by the way, on the delivery of this, because I told you they come fully assembled and they just get placed wherever you want it placed. We did a video, you know, I have the television show growing a greener world, so I have my production crew and I let them know that I wanted to document this so that we could share it with the order built and share it with the world. And so we documented and filmed with drones and cameras here on site as the delivery was coming down the road and coming off the trailer and onto the driveway behind the house to the pad. It is, it's art, it's ballet is really what it is. And Shane, my driver who was the guy that ran the Mule, which is the device that pushes the greenhouse where it needs to go once it's off the trailer, he's a master at that. And it was just something to see and you can see it because we'll have a link in this podcast for our video on this. And I'm telling you, it's pretty cool. So if you're at all curious, definitely check out that link and take a look at the greenhouse I have and the delivery process. I think it'll blow you away. And the way that you can see the link is by going to our website at JoeGardner.com. Look for the podcast tab. And this is episode number 352. And just scroll down through the main notes and you will get to the section at the bottom with all the links and it will be there. Okay. So back to having the greenhouse now it's installed, it's in place. The Yoder Belt crew has left the premises, you know, and now it's, it's just me in the greenhouse. You know, that first day I'm just standing there looking at it and I just can't even believe it's finally happened. And greenhouse owners can relate to this. You know, you wait a long time and then it finally happens and you pinch yourself to make sure you're not dreaming. And that's what I did. But then you're thrown into the pit, you know, it's like drinking out of a fire hydrant. You don't have any experience typically when you're a first time greenhouse owner. So it's all new. And so you go on your Facebook groups and you find those groups that talk about hobby greenhouses and you read everything there is to read and you get to know some people there and whatever you do, you do your research. But there's no substitute for the reality of hands-on experiencing the ebbs and flows of the things that happened throughout the year and how you respond to it. For example, I told you my greenhouse was delivered right at the very end of December, like the last couple of days of December. So coming into January, February, March, that's the coldest months of the year. And I didn't know that at night the greenhouse temperature inside unheated is pretty much the same temperature as outside because a lot of that, most of that hot air that builds up during the day because even on a cold day, greenhouse can be very warm, almost hot. All that heat dissipates and you're back to ambient temperature inside at night. And that's quite a surprise the first time you realize that. So that requires insulation and supplemental heat, at least supplemental heat because some greenhouses really can't be insulated because they're all poly or don't have a place to insulate. In my case, with the wood floors and the gaps between the wood where air can flow in from the outside because the greenhouse is technically sitting a little bit above the pad because of the skids or the runners that are built onto the frame to support it and make it easier to transport, air can come in and up through the openings in the floor space. So that required skirting in my case, which is basically adding boards across the bottom all the way around to block the opportunity for air to come in. And that makes a big difference. And then I put those puzzle piece rubber mats down, those interlocking rubber mats, which are two feet by two feet over the entire greenhouse floor. And that helped even more. And then I insulated the side wood panels because they are the shiplap interlocking wood, but they're not airtight. So cold air can come in that way too. So I ended up getting that pink insulation 4 by 8 styrofoam-ish board and cutting those pieces to size to fit into the panels and block the air that way. And that made a big difference. Now how big is big? If the outside temperature was whatever it was, doing the insulation that I just explained allowed the interior temperature without supplemental heat to be about 7 degrees warmer. Only 7 degrees warmer. And you would think, gosh, it should be more than that. But it just isn't because there are lots of little air gaps in any greenhouse where warm air can escape or cool air can come in. So that's just a fact of life with greenhouses. And that's where the supplemental heat comes in. So adding heaters, however you do that, electric or propane or otherwise, is probably a good idea. If you're going to overwinter plants in there or non-hardy plants, you're going to need to make sure that you have a temperature or the ability to raise the temperature to whatever you deem to be appropriate to keep those plants healthy. And that's what I've done. And my heating choices have been two electric oil-filled radiator heaters. You've seen those. And they're in the $50 to $100 range, depending on the one that you get. And they usually have three settings on it, low, medium, and high. They're efficient and they're safe. And they work well. And so I have two of those in my 32-foot greenhouse. And I also have one other electric heater. And it's called a Palma PALMA greenhouse heater that has a thermostat control on it. And that's a very popular greenhouse heater for hobby greenhouse owners. In fact, it's so popular they've been out of stock forever. I really like mine. I don't necessarily need another one because of the other two heaters. But it is nice to have all three. And it is kind of necessary for that size greenhouse. But that one is thermostatically set to come on if the greenhouse temperature drops below 50 degrees. So it comes on as needed. But that's it. And I really haven't seen a big spike in my heating bill yet either. But as a backup, because I like redundancy, I learned that when I got my private pilot's license, every airplane has multiple instruments that do the same thing for the purposes of redundancy. If one goes down, you've got a backup. And so that is so important in life and with a greenhouse. So my backup system for heat was propane heaters. And it's the typical tank that you see that you put under your grill. But these have screw-on heater tops and they put out a lot of heat. Now I haven't had to use them yet, knock on wood for this past year because I haven't had an issue where I've lost power to the greenhouse. But that's why I would have them is, you know, if I've got 3,000 seedlings in there in February and suddenly I lose my power, it gets really cold in there and I don't want to lose my seedlings, of course, and neither do you. Or the other scenario is, what if the temperature is going to get so cold that even with those electric heaters, it's not enough. Like we had that Arctic blast a year ago over Christmas where it got down where I lived to four degrees. That's too cold and I don't think my electric heaters could push enough heat to supplement where it needs to go. And so I would be running those propane heaters. But mainly they're there if the power goes out and my temperature sensors that I have in my greenhouse, and that's something else I recommend, is having the opportunity or ability to know what the temperature is in your greenhouse with a Wi-Fi or a Bluetooth sensor. There are two good ones on the market. GoVie will have links to all of this in the show notes. And Sensor Push, and I have both because again redundancy. But I'm able to look on my phone and get notifications when my temperature falls below or goes above a predetermined range. And it's really nice to have those. And those sensors track historical data. So if you want to see trends or highs and lows over the day, the week, the month, the year, and you can download it into a spreadsheet if you're geeky and I know some of you are. So you've got those options and those sensors are just a game changer. But with the backup heat, gas, in this case the propane and the electric, I feel like I'm covered. Now I wouldn't want to run propane only because I hear that the gas that's put out can have an adverse effect on your plants over time and maybe on your health. If it's just constantly running and you don't have it properly vented, that would be the key. And I don't know that I'd mind would properly be vented yet. So I need to do some more homework on that. But right now it's an emergency standby. But heat really is the most important thing to be thinking about in the wintertime along with insulation so that you are able to get the temperature where you need it to be, however that is, so your plants are safe. Now let's talk about the heat. I mentioned that it can get very hot inside of a greenhouse even on a cold day, but especially as you get into spring and the days are warming up and then you get into summer, if you've got plants in there and in many cases you may not have it in the summer, but in spring and in the fall, yeah, you're probably going to have plants in your greenhouse. And one instance I recall I was away from home and I had got an alert on my phone and this was in the springtime that my greenhouse temperature had spiked to the setting that I had marked for the upper limit, which was I think 103. And that's not uncommon by the way, but no one was home and I hadn't opened up the greenhouse for the day. So my windows were closed, my doors were closed and it was an oven in the greenhouse and I had plants in there. Thankfully, my daughter lives close by and she was able to go open up the greenhouse, but you also need to be prepared for excessive heat and your plans for dealing with that, especially if you're not home, be thinking about that. And also where you place your temperature sensor. This was something that I incorrectly did initially as I was looking in the greenhouse where would be a good out of the way place to mount my sensor. And so I picked a beam, a support beam above the benches, which was, you know, probably eight feet up in the air or nine feet. And maybe the whole entire greenhouse pitch is 12 feet max. Well, you know hot air rises. So the higher up that temperature sensor sits, it's going to be reading artificially hot temperatures. The temperature where the sensor is is going to be accurate, but that's where all the hot air goes and where you're standing or where your plants are is likely not the same temperature. In fact, it won't be. It'll be less than that, which is reassuring. But it wasn't until recently that that dawned on me and I moved my temperature sensor to a more appropriate place that was realistic for where my plants are because that's really what I need to know. And since then I've discovered that there's at least a 15 degree temperature difference between where it was mounted higher up in the greenhouse versus where it is now and where is really where it should have been the whole time, which gets you a lot of latitude also. So you don't need to panic when you get a reading on your sensor that it's over 100 degrees, when it's probably more like 85 or 80. Okay. Now, before we leave this issue of heat, back to my friend Peter Langham, I asked him about the heat in his greenhouse because he had mentioned it a few times. Without my asking, because I wouldn't have known to ask this question, he volunteered that it got so hot in his greenhouse one day that it melted all of his seed trays. And I'm like, oh, that's not good. And I would have never thought about that. But because he said that, I'm very cognizant now of being sure not to store all my plastic in the greenhouse over the summertime. It's out there now. It's not as hot as it will be. And I also have moved all of my equipment that's plastic to the side of my greenhouse that does not have exposure to UV light. Because as the sun is coming in, and I should have talked about how you place your greenhouse, I'll do that now. As I sighted my greenhouse, I was looking for exposure from the south. So the widest part, the 32 foot span of my greenhouse is facing the sun as it tracks across the sky. So I get maximum exposure all through the day. That's the optimal positioning that you should do is that your widest part of your greenhouse should be facing the south. So you get maximum sun. Now I should clarify, that reference is for those of us who live in the northern hemisphere, but to all our friends listening who live in the southern hemisphere, your maximum sun exposure comes in from the north. So ideally, your greenhouse would get the most sunlight if you had the widest part exposed to the north. But because of that, I moved all of my plastic equipment onto the lower shelf of my benches on the wooden side below the glass or below the poly, because there's no sun that gets to that lower section of the greenhouse. Now if I had put all that plastic on the bottom shelves, on the opposite wide side of the greenhouse, the north facing side, the light streams in and hits that side of the greenhouse across the whole greenhouse. So all of that plastic would have been exposed to the UV light every day. And that eventually, of course, would wear it down and make it not as effective for as long. So one other aha for me and something that you should consider if you're going to keep your plastic out there for any period of time. Also related to the heat issue. I talked about what you can do to keep your greenhouse warmer when it's cold outside. What do you do to keep your greenhouse cooler inside when it's blazing hot outside? Well, in addition to the ventilation, the as many windows as you can get, there are thermostatically controlled bevels that can open up in your greenhouse that will activate when it reaches a determined temperature that you set that sucks in air. And there's a exhaust fan on the backside that's pulling it through and it moves it out the backside. So basically, it's a way to get rid of the hot air through the back and it draws in less hot air from the front and keeps it moving. And then again, I told you I had the ceiling fans, the extra windows, and here's another big one. And that is Shea cloth. Shea cloth over the top of the roof. Now I've seen people do it and they've mounted the shade cloth in the greenhouse close to the ceiling. And for me, maybe that works, but I don't understand how that works as well because it seems to me that's just trapping heat in and adding more heat inside the greenhouse. Whereas if you have a shade cloth that fits nicely over the roof on top outside, that seems to make more sense for me. And that's the way I've done it. And I got one from greenhouse megastore.com, a sponsor of this show, but they had all kinds of options for shade cloths and options to get it exactly the size that you want. And in my case, I needed it 34 by 12. And the one I got is called a Luminet. And I didn't know about this prior to having to order it, but looking online at the Facebook groups, many people had used this type and it's 70% UV protection and it's like an aluminum fabric weave. Kind of hard to picture, but we'll have a picture of that on my greenhouse so you can kind of see what it looks like. But it really made a nice difference. It knocked down the temperature probably 15 degrees, maybe 20, from what it would have been without the shade cloth over the roof. So I highly recommend that. And for me, I put it on after the peak growing season in April and I leave it on until I'm ready to move plants in there for seed starting in January. So it stays on, what is that, eight months or so? I also feel it protects the poly plastic from the UV light, even though it's treated for that, you know, the more you can do to block that when you're not needing it, the better. So that's made a big difference. Now I want to tease something here for a second, but I'm not going to go into detail with it yet. I'm going to save it for the end because it's quite geeky and I've brought in the person that enlightened me on this condition that I didn't understand what was happening. And he explained to me the phenomenon of what I was experiencing. And rather than my try to explain that, I got him on the phone and recorded it and I'm going to let him do that. But this is something I think you're going to really want to hear because if you end up having a greenhouse and you have temperature fluctuations between the night and the day, it can have a very interesting impact on your seedlings and how they grow. So yes, that's a tease, not a lot of information, but it's science-y and it's interesting to me and I know it will be to many of you. So I'm going to have that at the end of this discussion. So be listening for that as we wrap up the main part of this. But I will add this in fairness. What I was finding with my seedlings that I put into the greenhouse, I started everything inside my seed starting room as I always do and have done for years. And once they got up and growing and they were looking good, I moved them out to the greenhouse to get them introduced to warmer temperatures and natural light and they responded so quickly, faster than I've ever seen seedlings grow, to the point that they were picture perfect and right at the size I wanted them to be for sale, but it was still three weeks away from that ideal time to be offering them for sale. And you can't stop them from growing and they didn't stop growing. They in fact, they grew way bigger than I wanted them to grow in those subsequent three weeks. And I happened to mention that to Dr. Bethke and a random comment on a phone call I was with him on and he told me why that was happening. And so that's what he's going to share with you in a recording I have with him about this topic right at the end. But I did have gorgeous seedlings, phenomenal growth and the greenhouse made all the difference in that. Okay, something else that I observed here in the fall. So we're skipping summer because nothing was in the greenhouse in the summertime, too hot for anything, including humans. And so the greenhouse was just taking a rest inside and that was that. But then coming into fall as temperatures are starting to get cooler and you're wondering what to do with your non-hardy plants outside. So the greenhouse is a great place to bring them in. And this is something I warn people about, but I failed to do myself. And that is before you bring anything inside, make sure that you've debugged them, splashed them or spray them with a stiff stream of water to get the aphids off or whatever else might be lurking in or on your plants. Because once you bring them inside and you kind of close everything up, they're in there and they're having a party. So it only gets worse once they're inside. And your only line of defense really is to make sure that you've done your best to prevent any insects from getting into your greenhouse. So fully inspect everything before they make their way inside. I failed to do that. And suddenly noticed aphids and some other insect pests that were on my plants. So I had to take them back outside and do what I should have done in the first place. And I fixed it, but you don't want to be dealing with that if you can help it. So bugs will show up because it's a great environment for them to. So be prepared for that. And on that note, Sherry mentioned this too and made a really good point about not making any exceptions for bringing in plants that came from somewhere else. Because whether it's a pest or disease, there's a good chance that you could be introducing something into your greenhouse that wasn't there before. And it's only because you brought something foreign in that it got there. So that's a really important point. And based on my experience with my pest insects that made it in, a good reminder. So keep that in mind. And here are a few more points to bring up before we wrap up and get into that section with Dr. Bethke. And that is overwintering your dormant plants. So to pick up on the last topic I just mentioned with bringing plants in for the fall and winter time, you're going to be overwintering some dormant plants. And because the greenhouse in the daytime at least is getting much warmer, some of those plants either never go dormant or they come out of dormancy, depending on when you brought them in because of the warmth inside the greenhouse. So if that's okay with you, then that's okay. But if you'd rather them not come out of dormancy, then you might want to find another place to overwinter your plants. Because I'm telling you what, in my first year I brought in some dormant roses and they were leafing out like nobody's business and then they went to flower, which is okay. I mean, they're happy in there, they look great, but I really wanted to plant them outside now when they would have been dormant and it would have been a great time to plant them. But now that they've fully leafed out, that's not going to be good to plant them in the dead of winter, fully leafed out. So now I need to wait and I'm not going to have the room to keep them in there even when it's still cold. So I've got to dilemma ahead of me to be thinking about what I'm going to do. So just, I share that with you so that you can be thinking about while a greenhouse is a great place to keep your plants warm and dry through the winter time, it also gives them a false sense that it's no longer winter and they're leafing out and growing like mad when it's at the dead of winter still. So for what it's worth, whatever that application is for you, if any, keep that in mind. Changing topics. I have a couple cats and a dog and they love to hang out with me in the garden in and around it. And one cat in particular, Larry that many of you know about through pictures and Instagram post, Larry's a ham. Larry loves the garden and Larry really loves the greenhouse. And so I was asking greenhouse growers and, you know, just a question on their, on the Facebook groups, if they recommended a pet door and if so, what kind, but it quickly became apparent that that's not a good idea because if you think about it, especially with a cat or wildlife, my gosh, I mean, who wouldn't want to come into a warm, toasty greenhouse in the middle of winter at night if they can, if they can get access. So aside from a cat or a dog, raccoons and other critters, rats, whatever, you don't want that. But with a cat, if you have an outdoor cat, then all those containers of soil, and in my case, I have lots of big bins of potting soil sitting on the benches that I always go to and I'm potting up or transplanting. Well, imagine that is the catalac of litter boxes, right? So my recommendation, I concur with the advice that I got was not to have access into your greenhouse when you weren't there to supervise it. And the other thing that my cat does and probably many cats do this is they like to nibble on the leaves of the tender seedlings. And I don't know how to stop that. And if it's unsupervised, they may have a field day in there, gnawing or chewing up your seedlings or pulling them out of the pots, which my cat did for me. And so I'm learning that too. So I just never really want to have a situation where there's access into the greenhouse when I'm not there to see what's going on. Now you might want to put a security camera in there to monitors and alerts you on your phone if there's something going on in there. So that is a realistic option if you can get out there fast enough, something to think about too. The next thing I want to mention here before we get to the Dr. Bethke phenomenon that he'll share with us is something, thankfully, I called Toby, my farm manager, the other day. And I said, Hey, what were your ahas from the greenhouse this year that stood out to you? And she mentioned pretty much everything I had already thought about too. But the one thing that she added that we recently talked about one day in there is like, Hey, you know, we've got all these benches in here. And Joe, you're moving stuff around all the time. So I never know where it is from one day to the next. We really need an organized, dedicated spot in the screen house where things live and they don't move from here. And if you take them away, they have to come back to this designated spot. And that was a brilliant idea. So what would that be? Well, the brooms and the equipment that you may have for cleaning up in there. And it may be cubby holes for your plant tags and your markers and your scissors and your whatever. There's a million things that you end up putting into your greenhouse that you want to have quick access to. And if you don't have a designated spot for that and your greenhouse is on the bigger size, it may take you a while to find it. And so I love that recommendation from Toby. So high five to you, Toby, for that one. And we will be adding a dedicated space in our greenhouse for those miscellaneous items. And I love that idea. OK, let's wrap up the main part of this conversation with this issue that I experienced with my seedlings coming into April when I needed them to look as good as they possibly could. But they started looking that way in like the latter part of March way too early. But they were picture perfect at that point. And I remember telling Toby every day we were out there in the greenhouse, gosh, I wish I could freeze them to this size right now because this is exactly how I want them to look three weeks from now when they start going on sale. But every day after that they would get taller and taller. And so I had theorized that the reason why they were getting taller, I mean, they were still beautiful, but the stems were really getting up there. They weren't thin. They just were turning into trees. The branches of the tomato plants were spread out internotally, which means you've got a section of branching and then you go up the stem and there's the next section of branching. And then you go up and there's the next section of branching. So the space between those branches is the internotal section. And in my case, those sections were getting very stretched out. They weren't as compact. That would probably be the more succinct way to say it. But that was one of the problems. And I was thinking, well, that's because I have 3,000 seedlings in here and there's no room for them to get the light. So they're all competing with each other and they're trying to outdo each other by getting above their neighbor. And it made sense to me because that really can happen. But as it turns out, that wasn't the reason that was happening. But I found out why. So that's the setup. And I'm going to bring you into my brief conversation with Dr. Bethke. He's the director of research development and soil scientist for PITMOS to explain this geeky side of why that happened. And then we'll wrap up with a summary and some additional information. And I'll see you on the back end. Here we go. Hello, Dr. Bethke. Thank you for taking a few minutes to revisit a big a-ha for me in 2023 in my greenhouse. And thanks to you, I learned my biggest geeky bit of information of all last year. I wanted to rehash that with you and go back over that because I think it's very interesting. And I know that our listeners of this podcast episode are going to really enjoy learning about this too. So to set the stage, you and I and Dan from PITMOS were talking about general things. I think it was various things. And I don't know what led me to even bring this up. It was kind of like on an aside comment, really not expecting an answer. I was sort of looking back on my seedlings and how they did in the spring with my tomatoes and how tall they had gotten so quickly and how for the majority of the time in the greenhouse, maybe it was five or six weeks in the greenhouse from when I brought them out there right after they germinated. They looked great. They were the best looking seedlings I'd ever had. But in the final two weeks, maybe from week six to eight, let's just say, they shot up and they really got tall. And I just assumed that it was because I had the benches so packed out, even though it was in a greenhouse, each seedling was competing with each other for light and they were elongating to get ahead of the guy next to them. And you said, have you ever heard of diff? Do you remember that? Right. Yes, I do. And I was like, diff, what is diff? And that is where you come into the scene today to pick up on that and reenlighten me and people listening as to what diff is, the phenomenon that it creates and how do you deal with it? What we find, people growing in soils that have good nutrition and good water holding like pit moss, they can accelerate the plant growth very effectively and the plants grow more rapidly. Especially tomatoes. When the plants are really growing well, you get an exceptional result when the environment is good. The plants are responding to the environment very effectively. Now with diff, diff is the difference between the night temperature and the day temperature. So if the night temperature is cold and the day temperature is high, you have a high diff. You subtract off the night temperature. That difference between night and day then stimulates the plant to do hormonal things. And among the hormonal things, it recognizes the high temperature and it releases a lot more oxen and gibberellens and stimulates and it wants to take advantage of the growing. And an interesting feature is the really cool nights, the gibberellens become more active in the plant the next day. So it is wise to reduce that diff by having warmer nights and cooler days. You can have that, I know a lot of people don't want to heat and so on, but you will get a much better plant and you want to start it very early when the first two leaves are fully expanded. And there is some evidence that by reducing the day temperature just for the first couple of hours in the morning, just at or before daylight, if you can cool them down, just for a couple of hours you will hamper the hormonal translocation. A lot of it's from the hormones are developed in the roots and then translocated to the shoots. And so if you have a couple of hours of cool, it shuts that down for the day somewhat and they will grow stockier, huskier and much thicker in the end. And a lot of greenhouse growers use this because they don't want to use hormones, chemical hormones to reduce the plant's height and make them stocky and sound. So they will do that for a few hours in the morning and that will do it. Otherwise you can open up the vents or whatever you can do to keep it cool for most of the day. Now keep in mind that the average temperature from day and night gives you the average growth rate. So if you're really cold, somewhat cold at night and really cold in the day, they won't develop very fast. So you have that full day drop in temperature or that early morning couple of hours. It's interesting that some people in Japan did a study where they watered the plants at nine o'clock in the morning with very cold water and it did this and it was tomatoes. And it did the same thing. However, you don't water your plants every day. Yeah, I was thinking that too. I was thinking darn, I don't know that that's practical. No, that's right. But it was just for studying the physiology of the plants and knowing what takes place. You can really, that'll be true with tomatoes especially because they're so responsive. But they also did it in that study with cabbage, but all vegetables and pretty much all plants will have this same response. There's a lot of research with chrysanthemums and Easter lilies. You ever wonder how they keep Easter lilies just perfect height for the season? And they often use the diff to do that. Interesting. When I recap what I heard you say and you can let me know if I'm tracking or if you can correct me because you just provided a lot of information and we're trying to listen to that and picture that and it's important to know. So what I heard you say, I think, is that I can reduce the rapid acceleration of growth and therefore have shorter stockier plants if I can do one of two things. First of all, if I can increase the nighttime temperature within the greenhouse so that in the daytime those temperatures are more closely correlated or in the morning if I can cool down the early morning temperatures for a couple hours, that can do the same thing? Yeah, cool down in the greenhouse. You open the vents. And there was a time when I was growing a lot of vegetable plants. I would open up and drop that temperature even down to in the 40s, 35 even for that first couple of hours. And sometimes that would work on a sunny day when it's really clear at night. It gets cold and then gets very sunny in the next day so it can get very, very hot if you don't open that up. So I would open it up just about daylight. You want to get up there really early because after enough daylight, then those hormones move around and you want to get that so they don't move so fast within the plant. So now would it be one or the other? So if I had my heaters going at night and I could get the temperatures up closer, well, warmer, and then just let them sort of slow down in the morning to where the temperatures are getting close together and then the heaters go off and it's about the same, that would be one option. But I wouldn't then do both in that if I had a warm inside at night to reduce the cold inside, I wouldn't try to rapidly increase the cold temperature in the morning to get that extra burst of cold weather early. Yeah, you could double up. But suppose you're kind of late and you're growing and you want to get more rapid development of the plants, but you don't want stretching and thin development. Right. So you want to warm at night and then do that cold drop for the first few hours and then do your average day temperature. It's really important to avoid that really hot temperature for some of these vegetables. All right. One final clarification to my, you answered my last question and then you threw me a curveball, but you were saying if I find out that I need to speed up the growth a little bit, I could do that by having a warm greenhouse during the night, but then come out there early in the morning and expose it to cold weather for a couple hours and that would accelerate the growth. Is that what I heard? That's correct, but it will accelerate stocky growth. You won't get that lengthy growth. Oh, that's good. That's what I want. I want stocky growth. Yeah. So I get thicker stems and shorter internotal set? Yes. Yes. So if you're wondering that, you can imagine the tomato sandwiches that you're going to have in the summer. Oh man, you just made my mouth water. I'm already imagining that. Thanks to you. That is interesting. It seems to me if I have two options for reducing that expansive growth quickly, one is warm nighttime temperatures in the greenhouse. The other one is to, presumably, the temperatures aren't warm in the greenhouse at night and then we still expose the temperature inside to the ambient outside temperature to reduce even more the inside temperature. That's the other way? Yeah, that would be extending the cool night into the daylight hours. Usually two to three hours will do the job. So if I want to save money and I don't want to run my heaters all night, that would be if I'm an early bird, that would work too. I don't have to worry about cranking up the heat inside, but I'd want to get out there and open up the doors or the vents or whatever in the morning for a couple hours. And that would also do. That's amazing. And I'm so thankful that you were able to shed some light on it and clarify what this is and how we manage it. Thank you, Dr. Bethke. It was a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed that. I really enjoyed sharing my alhas with you over this past and first year of greenhouse ownership and growing. It's been so much fun and I can't wait to continue learning and improving my skills. And hopefully this will help you get set up properly and get off to a faster start. Now be sure to go to the show notes for this one because we're going to have links that you definitely want to have access to. Check that video that I told you that we shot of the actual delivery and placement of the greenhouse and my literally walking into the greenhouse for the very first time after decades of dreaming about that moment. We captured that and that's part of it too. So it's pretty cool. So that link will be there and then pictures of the various things that I've talked about today. I'll share as many pictures as I can of those items to give you a much clearer idea of what I was talking about visually. And of course it's a great place to go back and listen to this podcast again. And again the way that you can do that is from our website at joegardner.com. Look for the podcast tab and this is episode number 443. All our episodes are now on YouTube as well. Our YouTube channel is Joe Gardner TV and in addition to the DIY and how-to episodes that we've been putting up there for several years, a few months ago we started adding our podcast. And so this is now on there as well as all our new ones. Some will have videos, some will not such as the encore episodes. Oftentimes they go back to prior to when we started doing the video recording for solo episodes like the one today. But for those that had conversations with a guest, those are typically videoed and then all the new ones even when they're solo will be video, probably more information than you wanted to know but that's how that works. In all cases we add a lot of photos when we can to make what we're talking about more relevant in the moment. I'm a visual learner so I like to see those things that someone is talking about and so we try to do that with every opportunity. Again the YouTube channel is Joe Gardner TV and real quick the other YouTube channel that we have is from my television show Growing a Greener World. All 12 Seasons is now uploaded onto that channel so this is a great time of year to binge watch some really awesome organic gardening television shows and we'll have over 200 there waiting on you to give you plenty of options and there are a lot of good ones. And again that YouTube channel is GGWTV for Growing a Greener World. And during the week you can find me on social media at Joe Gardner keeping you posted on all the latest information including a very big project coming up here. Talking about Thanksgiving time period just before that for 2025 I'm rebuilding all of my raised beds and my garden that you've seen in various sources. All the original cedar 6x6 timber beds 16 of them are coming out. The wood has basically rotted to the point that it needs to be replaced so that's what we're doing and it's all ahead in the very near future like less than two weeks from the build out. So I'll be posting on Instagram at Joe Gardner and on our YouTube channel Big Time Joe Gardner TV. If you really want to see the action as it happens pretty much in real time be sure to check out one or both of those channels because they'll be different but it's going to be a big transformation and we'll document it in both places. Now I have a very exciting webinar announcement for our next event happening on November 19th. If you've ever walked out into your garden and found your favorite plants nibbled to the ground overnight I can raise my hand to that you know that sinking feeling. Deer rabbits groundhogs they all seem to think that our gardens are there all you can eat buffet but here's the good news. There is a better way to deal with it. On Wednesday November 19th at noon Eastern time I'm teaming up with my friend Nancy Lawson author of the Humane Gardener and Wildscape for a live online webinar called Who's Nibbling in Your Garden coexisting with deer and other mammals. Nancy is one of the most knowledgeable and respected voices when it comes to understanding the why behind the wildlife behavior and she's sharing practical science-based ways to protect your plants without harming the animals or the ecosystem that supports them. It's a 90 minute session packed with insight solutions and a new way of looking at your garden through an ecological lens plus there'll be time for live Q&A at the end plus you'll get access to the replay and extra resources afterwards. Tickets are just $30 for this event so consider joining a spaces limited but together let's learn how to take that frustration into understanding and grow a garden that works with nature not against it just head to JoeGardener.com slash deer to register that's JoeGardener.com slash deer and I hope to see you there. And that's going to be a wrap for today. Thanks as always to Amy Prentice, Brendan O'Reilly and Christine Lafond and thank you for joining me today. My goal for every episode is to help you take the guesswork out of gardening by teaching you the why do behind the how to so that you can become a better smarter more confident gardener. I'll be back here again next Thursday for another episode of the Joe Gardener show and I look forward to having you right back here to join me for that. Until then have a great week, take care and I'll see you back here really soon. For more information, podcasts and how to videos, visit us online at JoeGardener.com.