Was Kelly's Red the Right Call?

From 30 for 30 podcasts. Brian Pata, senior defensive lineman from Miami, gunned down. The key to this case, it's Brian. An hour before he died, he was on the phone arguing what's about. This might be a hit. You want the truth. They just want a conviction. They're placing the arrest. We had a killer amongst us. Murder at the U. Listen now. Hello everyone and welcome into the latest edition of ESPN FC with myself Alexis Nunez, Stevie Nichol and look who's back after a six week luxury vacation. Not for six weeks, got it five weeks. It is Shakur Hislop who is finally back reporting for duty after what really felt like an eternity. And Shakur, all jokes aside though we do have to spare a thought for Shakur because he was trying to get back but his flight. from Trinidad back to New England was cancelled because of the blizzard. I tried everything I could. I know how badly you wanted to be here at work on Monday. You could have swam. I really did. I was so disappointed not to be here. I know. It shows. It shows. So sad. Well, we're going to dig a lot deeper into exactly what happened with Shaka's flights when he was supposed to be on FC on Monday later on in the show. But first, we have to dig a lot deeper into what went on in terms of some controversial calls midweek in the Champions League. A lot that left everyone going, hmm. And if you watched the show yesterday, we discussed quite a few of them. And for that, we have to welcome in Andy Davies to bring a level head to all of these because our ex-players are fired up as usual whenever referees have to make some decisions. So shall we get into it? We're going to start off first with what was the red card for Lloyd Kelly in that game between Juventus and Galatasaray, a game that really was going the distance and ended up in Galatasaray's favor. Now, our panel on the show were very skeptical about this one. Ale Moreno saying, look, Lloyd Kelly is actually looking at the ball. He does not look at the player. So you can't really say that he intentionally was meaning to do what he did. But Andy, what do you make of this one? Yeah, I think, listen, I think Lloyd's been really unfortunate on both counts, really. I think the initial first, the second yellow card that he really got sent off for, I think it's a decision that it's not, is it reckless? You can get caught up to one or two things, either being a reckless play, reckless play, which I don't think it is, or an act of disregard for the safety of the opponent, which again, he's jumping for the ball, he's landing, he didn't know where his opponent was. So I think he's been really, really unfortunate with the first yellow card. And then obviously it escalated into being an on-field view because the VAR decided when they looked at it, they thought it was actually a serious foul play challenge. So yeah, it was a really controversial decision, a really unusual process. And I think it was really difficult for people to try and understand what was actually going on. I think Dom was commentating at the time. So I think Lloyd can feel a little bit aggrieved. When you look at this, if you shift it forward to the serious foul play challenge that he was eventually sent off for, the VAR would have looked at the still pitches, they would have looked at the slow motion. And when you look at the still pitches, it doesn't look at the fantastic challenge. And I think that's what's led him down the path of going eventually to the red card. But I think when you look at the overall picture, I think Lloyd can think himself really, really unfortunate. Stevie, I know you love to mouth off at the refs back in your day. So do you agree with what Andy's saying? I absolutely think it's a horrible decision. I mean, how anybody can actually look at it. I know Andy's talking about, well, you look at the still picture. Well, you can't judge it on the still picture. You've got to judge it on what happened and the whole situation. And there are absolutely no stage did Kelly have any other thought in his head other than I'm heading the ball and I'm going to land. And the fact that he landed on his opponent where he did, you can't turn around. I mean, how can I turn around and see that serious foul play? That's absolute nonsense. He has no idea. Sometimes accidents happen in football. And just because there's a challenge doesn't mean that has to come out one way or the other if somebody gets hurt. So 100%... Sorry, if you look at law in terms of what UEFA have come out with today, they come out with a statement in terms of the challenge of the rationale for why he was sent off. And I'll just read it here. He said, it was an unfair contact with the opponent on the left ankle, clearly endangering the safety of the opponent. And that in itself is a red card offence. But with UEFA, they tend to operate differently to what they do on the Premier League. Premier League, with all its faults, it does tend to operate with a level of context and a level of common sense. On UEFA, it tends to be really black and white. and that's kind of how they've reached the outcome they have. But I totally agree with you. I think it's really harsh on Lloyd Kelly. And I even think... Sorry, go on. No, go on. You can finish, Andy. Yeah, I think the first yellow as well. I think it's the whole process. I think I'm a bit of a referee nerd, so I look at the context around the original decision, the yellow card. I don't actually think the referee was going to do anything. I think he was so focused on the aerial challenge. He didn't actually fully have a great view of the contact initially. And I think, I don't think you should underestimate the part that the Galatasaray players played in this moment. They all rushed towards the referee when their player was on the floor. The referee clearly got some information from the assistant referee that would have given him some information in terms of where the contact was from Lloyd Kelly. And I think the referee thought, you know what, I think I might have misjudged this. And that's where he's got his yellow card from. So that was the initial part of the process. and then the next part in terms of the VAR review has gotten to the red card position, which, like I said, I just think it's harsh in terms of the overall process and outcome. All right, what do we say? Was that he shouldn't have gotten a card at all, Andy? Was that what you were saying? Well, I think he's been very unfortunate. Exactly the reason you said, Steve. I think at the end of the day, he's jumped for the ball. He's got no idea what's going on. Hold on a second, Andy. We've heard harsh. We've heard unfortunate. it. How the hell is it right or wrong? Well, listen, in the rules of UEFA, it's correct, absolutely, but in terms of what I don't believe, you put that situation in the Premier League, I think you get a completely different outcome. I don't think you get a yellow card, and I certainly don't think you get a red card. So in terms of UEFA, who kind of run their game, definitely taught me doing the Premier League, I think they're very comfortable with a yellow card and, well, ultimately the red card. In terms the Preda League, I don't see a yellow card or a red card as an outcome. Satisfied with that, Stevie? Yes, he got there in the end. He got there in the end. He got there in the end. Well, someone else who got there in the end is our Julio Naranzo, who is finally joining us for this one. Jules, your thoughts on this one? Because, of course, it came at such a crucial moment as well for Juventus. They were fighting their way back into the game, and this must have let a lot of air out of their balloon once it happened. Yeah, and I agree with the boys. I heard the conversation that they had. I think it's really harsh on Lord Kenny. I think knowing what UFR and what Rossetti as a head of referees the instructions that he's been given to his referees as soon as I saw it on the replay I thought this is going to be a red and to be fair he changed from the yellow, the second yellow to the red as well after seeing it on the screen which I think is super harsh but it's dangerous for them and that's what the rule says and they just apply the rules and we can go into common sense and context like Andy just did, and rightly so. But for them, they see it differently, and I think there was no other choice. There was no other going to be any other outcome than the referee giving a red card, unfortunately, for them. Listen, I get it, and I get how UEFA's law is written and the interpretation, a rather strict interpretation of it. But then that kind of spills over into all kinds of issues. So let's say, for argument's sake, hypothetical, there's a corner. Everybody's tussling in the corner. There's a possibility that with eight bodies in such a small space that somebody falls over. Are you endangering an opponent by jumping for that header because you might fall on that person who somehow inadvertently fell over? So if you take the laws it's written and apply a strict interpretation, nobody's allowed to jump if anybody's within a yard of them. So just in terms of just, as was mentioned, context, common sense, this cannot be, that cannot be a fault. That cannot be an infringement of the law in any way. I think it was an awful decision. It feels as though they've used the law to get an outcome because of the outcome. That's what they've done. You know, because when you watch it, you can clearly see Kelly has absolutely no malice, there's no idea his opponent's there and he lands it looks as though the VAR has looked at it seen the outcome gone to the room and went okay I think we can apply that here and that's what they've done and to that point had the referee not given anything as we felt he should have there's no way UEFA would come out afterwards and say hey whether publicly or privately to the referee so you should have I think that's differently if you look at our laws there's absolutely no way so they've issued this statement in defense of a in defense of a refereeing decision that is controversial at the very least in my opinion it's dead wrong and now they found themselves in in this kind of muddle in trying to defend again in my opinion what is indefensible. Andy what do you make of what the boys are just saying now? I can't disagree I would say I mean UEFA have been really consistent over the seasons in terms of what they asked the referees and to apply law in terms and interpretations of law. I think the statement they put out this afternoon just completely backs up what they've been asking the referees to do for seasons now. I'm not surprised by the outcome last night, as Jules said, and I'm not surprised by their statement today. That's basically how UAC will want their referees to operate at that level. All right. This one definitely I think we'll be talking about for some time to come, but there's still plenty more calls that we need to get to including this one a controversial one in atalanta as they were awarded a late penalty against dortmund which eventually would help take them through at first a corner was awarded after this clearance from ben sabaini but after a var check a penalty was given now our frank laboeuf felt very strongly that this decision was wrong on yesterday's show and this is what he had to say about it No, no, nothing, nothing. The ball is touched by the player, he's kicked it away. If I cannot deny that there is a contact and the guy is bleeding, that's a sport contact. And on top of it, if you consider that the foot is a little high, I think the head is a little low. So it doesn't for me say that the guy doesn't play the ball, that he has a bad conduct. He plays the ball, kicks it away, and the guy put his head. No penalty for me. All right, Andy. Well, it's pretty hard to argue with a World Cup winning defender there, but what do you make about what Frank Lebov had to say about this one? That maybe the head was also a little too low and made it look worse than it really was. No, I love Frank's passion. I think the giveaway that there's a penalty is the attacker's pulling out studs from his forehead. I think the challenge, I don't think the head from the attack is too low. It's about waist height. The foot from the defender is high. And when you challenge like that and you make contact in any part of the body, but certainly with the head, it's absolutely a penalty kick. But I love Frank's passion and his thought. Typical centre-back. Stevie, what do you make of what Frank says, what Andy says? Because you, of course, you know, looking at it from the defender's point of view as I've gone back and forward, to be honest. The first time I saw it, I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. The second time I saw it, I changed my mind because, as Andy said, if you make a challenge on the field with your studs up, I mean, that's a fault. It's hard to argue. You can't argue. And the fact that the contact, you know, the defender, his leg's not above his waist. So that was in my initial thought was, well, he hasn't come above his waist. So surely it's because the attacker has put his head down. But then when you again, when I see it again, it's you can't go with studs regardless. So referee got it right in the end. I agree. I think I think that's the key descriptor here that the studs are up. I know. Listen, Frank is right. While I agree with everything Frank said, foot maybe slightly higher, just about waist height or just over, head maybe slightly low similarly. Because of the clearance or attempted clearance is unorthodox, the studs are showing. So now all of a sudden you have studs showing at whether it's three feet in the air, four feet in the air, it doesn't matter. If you have studs showing six inches off the ground, you're going to get a red card. So now I don't think there was intention in the way we talk about somebody coming studs up six inches off the ground. But the studs are up because it's an unorthodox attempt at a clearance. And once the studs are up, even without intention, even without malice, once there's any kind of contact with an opponent, you're going to see red. The fact that it was to head makes it even more kind of egregious. but without question it ticked every box for a red card for me and Andy just to play devil's advocates a little bit here because you know especially when you're in the box we see players attempt bicycle kicks or scorpion kicks pretty much all the time and if they end up scoring I mean they don't really get punished for it yeah no there's no there's no restriction in law in terms of um over kicks or bicycle kicks the the the define is is does it endanger the safety of an opponent. That's how for the referee to judge in the moment. You see lots of goals over the years that potentially if you're cutting out both bicycle kicks and overhead kicks you missed out some great goals That not what the law is about It about potentially endangering the saves of his opponent And Xhaka makes a really good point in terms of this situation The defender he misjudges the cross He gets his feet in a mess. He knows you've got an attacker coming in. He can't see the attacker, but he knows he needs to get first contact on the ball. Steve will know he can't afford to let that ball bounce. He has to get a touch on the ball. So there's nothing intentional. We're just trying to do everything he can to get the ball away. and unfortunately by making that, playing the ball, making that contact, he's then followed through and caught the head of the attacker and it's 100% a penalty. It can't be anything else. All right. Well, let's move on to the next one now because there was a big decision in the PSG against Monaco game and I know that Jules cannot wait to weigh in on this, but we'll get to Jules in a bit because the second yellow was awarded to Coulibaly for this. Andy, what do you make of it? I've got to be honest, when I saw it today, I was a bit surprised that there's been as much talk about it really. I just think it's really, when you're on a yellow card, you make a naive challenge like that. I think you're asking the referee to make a decision and I'm really not surprised that they received a second yellow. I think that's a second yellow in Europe. I think that's a second yellow in the Premier League. I think it's just a silly, unnecessary challenge by the player. I'm more than comfortable with it being a second yellow car. Now, like I said, we're going to let in Jules in a bit because I know he has a lot to say about this one, but guys, what do you make of that one? Second yellow. I don't think there was any debate to that. Yeah, can't argue. Initially, my angst was at Hakimi. The way he sprung in the air and threw himself around, but the fact is that he made contact and when you're on a yellow, you can't go into that challenge. You're asking for trouble. And that's the thing for me, Steve, and while you can see Hakimi sold it, and did a good job of saying it. As players, you know when your opponent is on a yellow. Yeah. And sometimes you target them in terms of you get your dribblers to run at him because his game has to change. It absolutely has to change. As players, you know that. So for this to happen in the way that it did, I'm sorry. You can look at Hakimi selling it all you want, but most players in that same circumstance would do that. That's down to the player in question. Dumb. Yeah. dumb challenge. Jules, what do you make of it as well? This was such a big moment in this game. Monaco had a lot of the chances. I think we know now that PSG were not exactly at their best and maybe wondering if this red card wasn't shown if they could have lost this one. Yeah, absolutely. It's the big turning point of the game. I think I agree with everything the boss just said. There's also to add a bit of context because like Andy said earlier, sometimes it's very important. And Koulibaly had made two fouls already before in between the two yellow cards who are quite short in space. The two of them, the first one is a bad foul on Nuno Mendes. And then there's also a bit of descent from Koulibaly towards the referee in that short space of time as well, where Koulibaly is asking the referee why he's not giving him some fouls. And you could see that Koulibaly is getting more and more frustrated, more and more tense, talking to the referee a lot. And I think that probably also plays in the fact that why he went for that ball on Hakimi, while the referee, I won't say I was expecting him to, but you must know, Andy, as a referee, when a player is starting to get out of his game and that you could see the frustration and you could see the guy is just like, I don't know what the word is in English, but like, you know, getting in that kind of mood really. And I think this is also one of the reasons for me of why that yellow was there and why Koulibaly made that fall. You could see as soon as he ran towards Hakimi, we were like, oh, don't, don't go. Too late. He went on and that was the second yellow. And Jules, just overall with what we said about PSG, just the fact that they kind of got here, they comparing them to how Real Madrid are going on, where none of them are really looking convincing. How concerned are you about PSG in the Champions League? Yeah, I think they're far from their best. They really are, especially the form that we saw in the second half of last season when they were outstanding to go all the way in the Champions League. There's obviously injuries. There was no Ousmane Dembele, for example. yesterday I think their midfield and there was no Fabian Ruiz as well to go to the midfield area where they were so dominant and so pretty outstanding really again last season in terms of their rotation and what Vitinha had to do and Neves and Ruiz and the way they complement each other and all that kind of stuff it's not there anymore and I think that's a big part of why they're not at the same level as they were last season I don't know if they will have it back between now and the last 16 for example in two weeks time or even later in the competition. I think it's very unlikely that they retain the title and I think it's very hard anywhere to go back-to-back in the Champions League. We know that there's only two teams who've done it in more than 45 years. So it was always going to be difficult, but I think the season so far has shown that they're very much up and down and more down than up, to be fair. And I think it'd be very difficult to go much further than probably the quarterfinals. Well, we know that the draw is coming up tomorrow. Who would you want for PSG, Jules? Would you want Hansi Flick and Barcelona, the boys are saying that that's probably exactly what Hansi Flick would not want or would you take Chelsea because I know that PSG have a a bit of revenge to get on Chelsea after the club world cup yeah I'd take Chelsea I think just because Barcelona as well every year we have a Barca PSG game all the time we talk about it we had them in the league phase two and PSG went uh went to Barcelona and won uh and I just think it's 10 years I think we used to have a lot of PSG Chelsea, by the way, in the Champions League, and then we haven't had any for 10 years, so and it would make my life easier. I wouldn't have to travel too far for the second leg. I could just come to Paris for the first leg. It would make me super happy. Oh, Jules, be careful what you wish for, because then you wouldn't have to travel as far to potentially see your side and get beat, which, just saying, at the rate they're going. At the rate they're going. All right, okay, don't jinx it. Thank you. I would like PSG to it. We love PSG on their good days. All right, Andy, what I was going to tell you that, you know, you should get your armor on for this segment. I thought the boys were going to go at you, but I think you fared well. A bit disappointed, really. I was expecting Steve to shout at me or at least swear at me. I've never got a chance. We've been alright. Shout at him. Stevie was asking before this if we were able to bleep out certain words he was going to say to you, but I guess Not needed. Not needed. Not needed. Everyone's on the same page. Maybe next time, Steve. Let's hope so. Alright, Andy Davies, thank you so much for joining us on this edition of Ask the Ref. Well, we will be discussing the Champions League draw in full on tomorrow's show with Dan Craig and Jules. We'll also be back for that one. Well, guess who's back? Shaka Hislop. And we're putting him on double duty. He will be on Football America's tonight. Oh, yeah. About time. He'll be on with Herc and Christina Alexander 8.30 p.m. Eastern Time. You know where. All right, well, another match that was filled with controversy, mainly from the first leg, was this one, Real Madrid, up against Benfica. Los Blancos were the ones that got the job done. They won, but as we discussed, they did not win convincingly. Now, Real Madrid were missing the likes of Kylian Mbappe, and Arbeloa explained his injury after, saying this. He had to leave training yesterday, and on other days, he has felt discomfort. After yesterday's training, I spoke with him and we consulted with the medical team. We believed it was best for him to stop and recover 100% so he can return in top form and confidence without discomfort for what's ahead. Now, we know that Real Madrid, of course, in La Liga are involved in quite the title race with Barcelona. Jules Mbappe is your boy. So when do we think he realistically will be back for Real Madrid? And how can they manage without him? Because as we said, they've not been convincing at all. Yeah, I think the idea is that he will be rested for 10 days, which takes you to the first leg of the last 16, pretty much. 10 days to two weeks, that's where he takes you, which is a long time. It's a long time without him, it's a long time without his goals, it's a long time without his leadership. You've got Gonzalo Garcia who can play there up front with Vinicius, as we saw in the game against Benfica yesterday that you mentioned, Alexis, and I expect that to be again the case in La Liga this weekend, for example. But it's a big blow. And from a Nabilo point of view, I don't really know what happened before the game. But on Tuesday in the press conference, he said, oh yeah, he's fine, he will play, he will feature when Kylian didn't finish training on Tuesday. And then something happened clearly. And I think Mbappe had been suffering from that knee injury on his left leg for quite a while. And I remember he was flown away to Saudi Arabia for the Super Cup final when he was clearly not fit to play. He went all that way just for 10 minutes at the end where he was clearly not himself. I've been playing with pain ever since and I think it was about time that he needed a rest. But Arbelova and the club wanted him to play as well so it was difficult for him to say, no, I can't play because it's not a too serious injury to the fact that he can damage it even more if he plays. But at some point he had to stop and he decided that it was now, it could have cost them, I guess, with this second leg game against Benfica. It didn't. let's hope for them that they don't lose too many points in La Liga in the two games that he's going to miss but they will need him back as soon as possible for sure Well as Jules said, Real Madrid will be without Kylian Mbappe for a bit especially this weekend as they will be in action La Liga returns, Real Madrid actually in action on Monday against Getafe and Barcelona in action early against Villarreal 9.45am is when we start our coverage of that one on Saturday so be sure to join us All right, let's talk about this match again. Inter against Bodo Glimp because after last season's finalists went out to the Norwegian side, Inter's coach Christian Kivu had this to say. My players tried everything they could with all the energy they had. It's hard to find the energy when you play every three days. We were against a team that played four games in the last three months, all of them in the Champions League. they had a lot more energy than us. Interesting stuff to hear, Stevie, because this literally goes against everything we have learned about getting your players fit and match-ready for a game. So if anything, you would think that Bodo Glimpse players would be at the disadvantage. Yeah, well, they'd absolutely... Normally, they absolutely would be. And when I say that, I'm talking generally about the last 30 minutes of games. I think because of the occasion, the size of the game, it's the Champions League, than your adrenaline, your desire. Absolutely, when you've not had that many games, can take you through, but not 90 minutes. Generally, after an hour, you start to feel it. In terms of Inter, they have to have been doing something in training. I'm sorry. They had a break over Christmas. So how can you turn around and say, what, eight weeks later, that your team's tired? I'm sorry. I think there's no question. Kievo and his staff have probably got the training wrong. They've probably done too much because they're playing games. If you do too much in training, that's going to take the legs away for the games. So I would tend to look at Kievo and his staff. And as much as I'm talking about them, I think you've got to look at Bodo Glimpse, manager and their staff, and think what a great job they've done. And unfortunately for Inter, their staff hasn't done a particularly good job at all. Shaq, I feel like there's just more to this result and what we saw than just a lack of energy from Inter. Without question. And I think Christian Kivu is trying to make excuses for his team. But if you really kind of look at what he has to say, what he has to say about his team and Inter's own results, I'm not sure any of them hold water. First of all, you've got to give Bodo Glenn full credit for the job that they've done. I'm with Stevie, or I'm sure Stevie will agree with me. As players, we always feel that you need four or five games before you're back to full fitness, before you're back to full sharpness. That's why we have pre-season games. And even then, you come into the season and you do feel that it takes four or five games of meaningful competition to really be at your best. You've got Bola Glimm now who have been off for, what, three months, have gotten the bet of Atletico Madrid, of Manchester City, and now into Milan twice. That is credit to them and the work that they're doing. Now, added to that, their squad, shall we call it strength or quality, given their spending, is a fraction. It's less than 10% of Inter Milan's squad value. So you, even if Bodo Glimt have more energy and can run around a whole lot more, your quality is supposed to tell the difference. That goes without saying. To that point, Inter Milan, as Stevie mentioned, had a winter break, came out of the winter break, and half a dozen games later lost to Arsenal, who did not have a winter break. So if Christian Kivu's thinking is right, Inter Milan should have beaten Nasser quite easily. So you can't have it both ways here, Kivu. I'm sorry. You got beaten by a far lesser squad. That you have to take on the chin. But don't try to discredit the work that Bodo Glimt has been able to do, despite a very difficult circumstance in not playing. Give them their flowers. You got beat. I'm not sure there's much excuse to that. You know, it's not even just the physical side. The tactical side of the game. Bodo got it correct. Twice. Inter got it wrong. Bodo got it beat them twice. So it's not a one-off here. Yeah, Bodo's not going to be able to go toe-to-toe for 90 minutes against Emdey because they're not in the season. So their tactics were spot on. Keep it nice and tight. You know, try and minimalise the running. Just be compact. And then you look at Inter. I mean, I don't know how many crosses they must have had. But you think you're going to play against this team and what ball's in and you're going to win that way? No. And they proved they couldn't. Yeah, Jules, because when you look at it, this wasn't the only tie where Bodo Glimt has shown us some actual quality. And we just saw the stats there in terms of the difference between the budgets of both. There's over 590 millions of euros difference in both budgets. So how did this happen? Well, there's a few reasons. And just to answer this question on the crosses, 51 crosses, Stevie, from Inter in the 90 minutes And not many of them obviously you know went to the right place and hit the target like that way There a lot of explanation I mean whether we agree or not on their calendar which is obviously out of sync compared to the European calendar, if you want, and whether that's a good thing or not. They're the fittest team in the Champions League. They run more than anybody else, any other team. They run 7k more than Inter Milan on that game, for example. They have more sprints. They're super fit. they also have this way of playing and we saw at times at San Siro how they move the ball so so well in slightly different formation but they are a team that have a lot of the ball when they play domestic football and they leave the ball to the opposition when they play European football and they can manage both game plan and both tactics really really well it's a very smart team coached really well by Mike Knudsen who has been there for 10 years and built this squad exactly like he wanted with the right players with the right structure and they do that great they wrote that luck a little bit, of course, and you have to when you play over two legs against a squad like Inter Milan, that is much better than you. The fact that Lautaro Martinez wasn't in there, no try, no glue either. For Inter, also was a problem for them. But over the two games, Bodo Glimt were outstanding, I thought, and now they're waiting for the draw. It could be City or Sporting. I think if they draw City, they're not going to beat them over two legs, even if they've beaten them already in the league phase, obviously at home. If he's Sporting, I think they've got a massive chance to reach the quarterfinals. All right, well, I want to take look at their goal because Stevie let me know what you think of this one because it's one thing to say you know if this just was a one-off or if they just had good coaching or if they had more desire if they were fitter on the day but this goal took some real skill well it took a little bit of everything uh i mean the the movement's fantastic you know the the pace of the passes every pass has got has got speed on it it's not four five and six touches it's one and two touches i mean everything that you as a coach desire when you're counter-attacking. And then to finish it off, a late run right through the heart of Inter's defence. A fantastic first touch and then a beautiful volley into the bottom corner. I mean, it was just... They made it look so easy and it's not easy. Yeah. Within what, three seconds? They've gone from the halfway line and the ball's in the back of the net with, what, four or five passes? As I said, one and two touch at pace. Defenders can't handle it. Jules, when we see goals like that, players doing that kind of stuff, and I think with this Bodo Glimp story, the questions are going to start surfacing now about wondering why these players aren't playing in a better league. Is it just a matter of time now? It's a great question. I mean, we see Evian there who scored his goal. He was very talented when he was younger. In Norway, went to Ezekiel Eichmann in the Eredivisie in Holland, and it just didn't work out for him. and he went back home like Hauger, like Berg, like the goalkeeper, like the left back, like many of them where they found it difficult outside of that little bottle-gling bubble, if you want, in a way, and it's not disrespectful to call it like that, but it hasn't worked out for them, and yet coming back, he was outstanding in that game. It's actually him starting that move in an almost forced number nine position, and then who's there to finish it. I think he can try another 99 times, probably would never score that same goal with that first touch. But it worked on that night. And again, to go back to what we said earlier, to win those kind of games against a club like Inter Milan, when you bought a glimpse, you need everything to go your way, including those touches, including those finishes, including a great save by your goalkeeper, including the opposition to hit the post, because Inter Milan hit the post twice in the first leg and once in the second leg as well. You need all of that to go with you, and that doesn't take any credit away from your performance, but you just need the complete package to be able to almost overperform like they did over those two legs with the runners-up of last season. And they didn't, Evian, I think, on this goal, but his whole performance was just the perfect example of what they did really well. Maybe everywhere was just too warm for it to work for them. Maybe they just need sub-zero temperatures and a plastic pitch, as Frank was saying yesterday, for them to function. All right, well, Bodo, as Jules said, will either get City or Sporting in the next round. and there's much more talk about Bodo Glimta and the Champions League over on the latest edition of the Gab and Jules podcast. Well, Jules is one of the writers that is picking their Premier League player of the season so far over on our ESPN website. His pick, though, is not a certain Martin Odegaard, though, who has been overshadowed somewhat by Eberichi Eze. and Stevie had this to say about Odegaard's future. Odegaard might be leaving Arsenal. What's up next, Stevie? That's quite a statement. Well, if you're Odegaard and you're the captain and 18 months ago you were the guy and all of a sudden, I know he's had a couple injuries, but all of a sudden there's question marks. whether he actually starts in the XI because of Eze. Maybe even because of the way he's been playing, somebody else might get ahead of him as well. So if you're Odegaard, do you stick around? I don't think you do. Jules, what do you make of what Stevie had to say about the Odegaard situation? Yeah, I think the question has to be asked, really, about his place in this team, the future. He's been a bit underperforming really the last 18 months. He's still the club captain. Michael Arteta still loves him. I think he still has a lot of credit in the bank, for sure. But it's a highly competitive squad to start with because there's players in his own position that can play that offer something very different to what he has as well. I don't think he will leave. I think there's still a lot of love for him and support for him at the club, especially from Arteta. I think there's a place for him in that team if he gets back to his best, which we saw not that long ago as well. But I think it's a good point too, and I think there's probably some fans who share what Stevie thinks. I think it's probably the right question to ask right now because it's a key moment in this season. And I think right now it's a very important time for Martin Odegaard like it is for Arsenal Football Club. And then we see what the second half of the season brings. And then I think we probably have a clearer image or idea of what's going to happen in the summer at the end of the season. Shaka, if you were Odegaard, what would you do? First of all, let me say, I don't see Odegaard leaving before the end of next season. I think over the course of the next 15 months or whatever it is between now and the end of next season, you may slowly start seeing a change of the guard to Eze playing in that position. I totally understand his sentiment. is you look at Odegaard and you start to wonder what is his big plus, what is his big upside in this Arsenal side? Still a captain, yes, but I think Declan Rice has established himself more as a leader than Martin Odegaard to this point. And then when you look at the stats between him and Eze, certainly Eze stands out and he's been kind of stop-start, or at least Teta has made him a little bit stop-start. But Odegaard, for me, hasn't been the player that we saw two years ago. is not the player that Eze is who would engage defenders and make you rethink, give him his runs and his talents in the ball. He's not the kind of passer that maybe you saw two years ago or you associate with somebody sitting in that position, like a dare I say Kevin De Bruyne. So he doesn't scare you in terms of his role and that position. So without that leadership aspect of it, what is Odegaard's primary role in this team? defining role in this team. I'm not sure that it's there anymore. I still think that given how things are going, especially if Arsenal go on and win the title, there won't be major change in the summer. That will come a little bit slower, which is why I say I don't feel we'll be having that earnest discussion about Odegaard's future until this time next year, thinking what's he going to do come summer 2027. Jules, up next, of course, is the London Derby Arsenal facing Chelsea. Do you feel like Odegaard will start in this one? I think this is really interesting because he didn't start against Spurs last Sunday because he was not fully fit, just coming back from an injury. And don't forget that Eberici Eze didn't start in that number 10 position, well, that right-hand side in the midfield three position. In the previous league game against Wolves, for example, because Bukayo Saka played there like he did when he played in the FA Cup against Wigan three days or four days before. So, I don't know, you would think that with the momentum of the performance that Eze had against Spurs, that it would be him, especially if Odegaard is not fully, fully fit, yet to start a Premier League game on this calibre with the intensity and everything that is at stake in the game, maybe. But I don't think it's a given either for Eberici Eze to start that game. And you could see Odegaard could play there, you could see maybe something slightly different from a Mikel Arteta point of view, maybe in that midfield. My money is on Eze, and I think it's, you know, I'm sure the boys would agree with me. But again, we've seen a few surprises from Arteta in that position already this season. Well, let's see if the boys do agree with you. Stevie, do you agree with Jules that your money's on Eze to start? Well, yes, I think he should start. But as Jules said at the end there, you know, Arteta's done some, you know, he's thrown some wobblies at us. And so if you're Eze, you can't be totally confident you're actually, if you're Ezi, sitting waiting on that team sheet going up because he's been in and out as well you know, a couple of weeks ago he looked frozen never mind Odegaard now all of a sudden, he's back in pole position so I expect Ezi to start, but with Arteta, you never know do you think that comes from Pep? I mean, Pep used to do that all the time I think sometimes he thinks back to what Pep did because he thinks he's surprising teams. Unfortunately, too many times, yes, you surprise the opposition, but you surprise your own team and you upset your own team as well. So, if Arteta's got his try to be clever head-on, then I don't know what to expect. I'd start as it. And I'd start as it because of how I expect Chelsea to play. Now, given what you saw, particularly in the second leg of that Carabao Cup, where Chelsea just kind of, albeit it was at Arsenal, Chelsea just kind of sat and defended. Was it at Arsenal or Stamford Bridge's second leg? Whichever way. Chelsea just sat and defended and hoped to bring a surprise in the last 15 minutes. I expect Chelsea's approach to be very much the same this time around. Again, just sit back, defend, soak pressure up and hope to come out in the last 15 minutes. In which case, you need somebody just to shake things up a little bit in that attacking third. And Eze can be that for Arsenal. when Arteta allows him to be. So for me, if I'm picking the squad, I'm picking Eze to give Chelsea a whole lot more to think about. Well, Jules, Arsenal got a big result in the North London derby, but they did drop some points in their two games before that against Wolves and Brentford. So looking at this match-up now against Chelsea, could this be another potential banana skin for Mikel Arteta? I think it's a massive game because of the momentum that they have now after that win against Tottenham. last Sunday. That doesn't mean that you forget what happened against Brentford and Wales when you dropped those points when you were leading as well in those games, which is something that you can't really afford to do when you are in this kind of title race with a team like Manchester City. But there's that momentum. You're back at the Emirates as well, which I think is very important. And you're facing a Chelsea team that we saw against Burnley probably deserved to lose that game at Stamford Bridge against Burnley that the week before that could only draw against Leeds again at home after being 2-0 up in that game. So it's not the best version of Chelsea right now. I think Rosinio is still finding out or trying to figure out what is the best formula for his current team. Is he called Palmer on the right-hand side? Would you play Enzo? If you play Enzo as a 10, I'm not sure this is very good for Palmer. If you play Palmer as a 10, that means you play Enzo deeper. I don't think this is really good for Enzo, especially for a game like this against Arsenal. So there's a lot of question marks over what Rosinio has to do or is doing or is not doing. maybe even at Chelsea. So it's probably a good time if you're Arsenal to play Chelsea. It's probably a good time for Chelsea to play Arsenal and in a way having to be fully focused, a bit like what Arsenal had to do when they went away at Spurs last Sunday after the Wolves result. That is a bit similar to what Chelsea went through with the draw against Burnley at home. So it's quite similar, but Chelsea need to wake up pretty quickly. Otherwise, even that fourth and fifth place could escape them very quickly against Liverpool and United. All right, with all that said, let's have a look at the predictions that our panel has for this one. Surprise, surprise, surprise. We all went for a win for Arsenal. You know what that means. Chelsea are going to win. Chelsea fans, we have just jinxed Arsenal for you, so you're welcome in advance. All right, well, you know we love to take your questions and answer them over on Extra Time. Jules will be joining us for the latest edition coming your way on YouTube, as well as Shaka and Stevie, so don't miss it. Well, there's some more Bundesliga action coming up this weekend on ESPN+, including the big one, De Clasica, this weekend on Saturday, but also the likes of Bar Leverkusen going up against Mainz earlier on in the day at 9.30 a.m. Eastern time. You know where. And speaking of the Bundesliga, we let Ale Moreno out of the office to join our K. Murray over for this De Clasica watch party at Tom's Watch Bar in LA Live. Much warmer weather. 8.30 a.m. Pacific time. Early rising for them. Juergen Klinsmann will be there. Patrick Abomayala will also be there. If you want to get involved, just scan that QR code and you can see how. All right. Well, that was the perfect way to welcome back our Shaka Hislop after his luxurious vacation. Shaka, did you like that little welcome back that we had for you? No. Well, then you're going to love this because as promised, I said we were going to dig deeper into what exactly happened with these canceled flights and all Well this is what Shaka Hislop texted to our boss Steve He said hey Steve my flights back from Trinidad tomorrow have been cancelled Oh boo No idea when they be rescheduled for just yet I'm supposed to be on FC on Monday. Tell you what, no idea. Well, as punishment, we're going to show you exactly, because we have eyes and ears everywhere, let me tell you. And we got some security cam footage from Shaka's hotel. How did you do that? In Trinidad. I'm a woman, I can do anything, let me tell you. And here is Shaka. This is what Shaka was doing when he was so distraught that his flights were cancelled. He does look a little upset, doesn't he? Oh boy. I was trying to rebook my flights. It was hard work. I was on hold. I don't see any phone there. I was on hold with the airlines. That's what it was. Yeah, he looks very distressed that he could make it back to work. You know his note of no idea. That means I'll be back when I'm ready. That's what that means. I was trying to get back. I really was. Oh, yeah. It looked like it. I really was. Thirsty work, book and flights. Thirsty work, wasn't it? Thirsty work, book and flights. Did you quench your thirst? Well, I have to keep myself hydrated. With an adult bedroom. Oh, I know that. I had to keep myself hydrated. Alexis. All right. Well, either way, we are absolutely happy to have our Shaka Hislop back. We're going to make him work every single day of the week. Why? That's it for this edition of ESPN FC. But don't go anywhere because Extra Time is next. Welcome into Extra Time. Alexis alongside Stevie and a nicely tanned Shaka Hislop. Jules is also with us and the rest of us would love to know what a vacation tastes like. But anyways, let's answer some questions. And thankfully, the first one is for Shaka, because we're putting him to work right away. Shaka, I always find that the first few days returning to work are very hard and give off a stark post-vacation depression. As you return to the chilling cold of the East Coast from Carnival in Trinidad, how do you cope with these feelings? I try to suppress them as best I can. That works wonders. Oh boy. Let me see this. I tell you what, Shaka, did. He came in early today, and from the crack of dawn, he has just been on his laptop looking at highlights and stats from the last three weeks of football, trying to prep himself for the show today. And if you believe that... If you believe that, boy, do I have a piece of property to sell you. Oh! He came in an hour. I arrived today, and I was like, I have no idea what happened to me last two weeks. I have no idea. Yeah. Oh, boy. So that's why normally we would have a Shaka Power Rankings on Thursday, but we couldn't put him through it. Well, he actually did give us one, but we didn't really trust it, so we didn't do it. Because there's no Power Rankings on fruit cocktails. Yeah, or ranking adult beverages. Oh, boy. Let me just say, I had a good time. Just for the record. I'm sure. Just for the record. Just for the record. I can't wait to unearth some photos. All right, next question. No, there's none. There's none. Incognito. I've scraped the entire interweb. There are no photos of me. You should, next year, you should take us all to Trinidad Carnival. Absolutely. I think so. Everywhere I go, people are saying, when are you bringing FC to Trinidad, including Craig? They asked for Craig? Oh, Craig, well, somebody's got to stay here. Yeah, I think Craig should stay here. But I think the rest of us should go. Ale Moreno would have a great time. Jules would have a great time. Stevie as well. The same Steve who I texted that I wouldn't be available. He's the one responsible. But he's happy to put my text message on blast. But he won't take his show down to the Caribbean. Steve, take us back down to the Caribbean. Maybe if I send a text. Maybe I need to send another text. Yes, do that. The ESPN FC in the Caribbean. We're coming. I said it today. All right. Next question. Stevie, should Liverpool give Virgil van Dijk and Alison contract extensions for an extra year, maybe? there's a good chance Salah and Robertson leave in the summer and I'm sure Van Dijk and Allison's experience and leadership would be needed. Well yes, I think, I think 100% Van Dijk. However, Jules will need to help me out here. I've got Claret Skelly in my head, it's not that, but the goalkeeper. Mamadash Billy. I'm kind of thinking Some people call him Kravatskelia though Some people call him that You know it's how you got it You know if you can get I think it's time for Mamadashvili To maybe step into Alison's shoes If you can get some A decent amount of money for Alison Because I think he still would Then I would be tempted To make that change Because Mamadashvili is a fantastic backup but I think he would be a fantastic number one as well and I think Alisson is just beginning to to drop a little bit in terms of 100% in terms of his feet I think this season in particular his feet have been horrible he's given a lot of balls away he's put a lot of balls out of bounds and I don't think he's made as many big saves as as we've been used to so if you could get a decent amount of money for Alisson I think I would I think I would move Mr. Mahmoud Ashvili up a little bit. Alright. I'm about Van Dijk. Are you calling for an expensive refit? I would give Van Dijk a year. A year? I thought you were just throwing everybody out. I know. No, no. Van Dijk, yes. Without hesitation. Alistair, you can get a decent amount of money. Thanks for your service. You sure, man. Yeah. Jules, what is the contract situation? What are you hearing about what could potentially happen with the likes of Salah, Robbo, Van Dijk and Alisson? Well, Alisson is out of control in June 2027, which is the same for Virgil, obviously. And I agree with Stevie in the sense that I think the club had prepared for the post-Alisson era with Mbamadashvili being ready. We saw him playing when Alisson was injured a bit this season. I think he did quite well. He would need a bit of time, obviously, to adapt and everything. But I think that's very much the plan. So I'd be surprised if there's an extension for Alisson. For Van Dijk, it's a little bit different. But I agree on Salah probably leaving this summer coming with a year left on his contract. Robertson is off contract in the summer. I think he will go. For Virgil, it's probably a decision that you make this summer. Probably maybe not this summer, but more in the January of next year. And see where he's at at that time. And also if he wants to stay, because we're talking about him staying. but for Reno, he might fancy another experience somewhere, maybe going back to the Netherlands, maybe go to MLS, I don't know, whatever he wants to do. So he might not want to stay once his contract runs out as well. Can you imagine an MLS? Oh, thriving. With a cigar out. Is that how you haul your cigars? Yeah. Well, the last time I had one, yeah. What? Very fancy. Why are those fingers like that? I know, that's what I was saying. It's a weird way to hold a cigar. How are you supposed to hold a cigar? Don't you just hold them like that? This is... Yeah. This is... I don't know. This is kind of like, who did that celebration last time? Wasn't it Dele Alli or something? McGinn. Yeah. Nothing like that. There's nothing like that. I don't know who holds their cigar like that. Stevie, apparently. But you know what? He's won a lot more stuff than all of us combined, so he's allowed to. Next question is for Jules. Jules, if you could sign one player for Arsenal right now, who would it be? Wow. As much as I like Trossard, Martinelli and even Eze, I guess, who can play on the left-hand side, I mean, I would love Kylian there, obviously. Of course. But in that kind of left-winger type of player, and I know he's just extended his contract at Juventus, but I would love Canan Yildiz to play in this Arsenal team because I think he would bring something a little bit special as well. So for now, it's not possible because he signed a new deal at Juventus, but hopefully in the future at some point. All right. You guys look at us. You'll agree with Jules. Next question. Six of the final 16 teams for the Champions League are from the Premier League. Will the gap continue to grow between the Premier League and the rest of the top leagues in the world? And is this a bad thing for football as a whole? Well, there's no reason why it's going to start going elsewhere because of the money. So you'd have to suggest that it was, if nothing else, it will absolutely stay the way it is. And because of the money, it might get worse for the other European sides. But at the same time, it's been some kind of weird results. I mean, we discussed Interbordoglip earlier, right? That's got nothing to do with money as we established. Spurs finished in the top of the year. God knows how that happened. So it's just been weird in Champions League in terms of how it's all kind of come together. I know Jules was talking about PSG earlier on the show. Similarly, they kind of limped through the group stage, dare I say. It was only when I think they hit Liverpool in the round of 16. All of a sudden, they started looking like a team that could go the distance or could go further. Well, Madrid looking questionable. I don't think there was any question that PSG were deserving winners in the end. Went up until that round of 16. They didn't look like that team at all. So I just feel that this Champions League just kind of throws up some oddities that maybe money isn't the only answer of four. Jules, what do you think? I think every season is different. Last season we only had three English clubs in the last 16, and yet they were still that much more powerful than anybody else, with that much more money than anybody else, and they still only had three. and from one season to another it can vary but it's obviously true that they have so much more money than everybody else that the league is better than everybody else even if as we've said many times on the show we think it's an average season in the Premier League this year but they still have just about the money and how much they can spend in both transfer windows and outspend everybody else that that gives you a huge advantage going forward I was just thinking though Good. It's not, you know, because we've been talking about how some of the games we haven't quite enjoyed them as much. Is that a phone ring? I know, it sounded like it. Jules, you have someone at your door? This has happened before. Yeah, somebody at the door. Oh, it's someone at Jules's doorbell. Jules, like what time is it? 10pm? I should go and open the door really. Leave him outside. Yeah, there was a party somewhere apparently I was told so I don't know. Oh, Jules has some 10pm visitors. Yep. No, I was going to say, back in the day with Serie A, all the best players were there. Yeah. And a lot of the games weren't particularly great either. So it's not anything new that all of a sudden, where all the money is, the games are not exciting. Because I can assure you, you know, the old Catanazzo and all that nonsense, some of the games were tough to watch. So it's not a new thing. All right. All right? Yeah. Just letting you know. A bit of before your time. A bit before your time, but there you go. Jules has gone to answer the door. He's 10pm busy. Look at that! Hey! Jules took it off his camera. Jules snuck into the party for a little bit. Jules was trying to get into the party. Have a drink and an hors d'oeuv. Come back! Aw, Jules. I'll tell you what, it'd be great if you came back with a big lipstick. Oh my! Oh my! Let's not get him in trouble. Sorry, sorry. Wow, 10 p.m. visitors. That was good. 11. 11. It's 11 even later. Jeez. Yeah. Questions, questions. I'm not asking any. I don't want to know. Next question now. Stevie, is the ultimate frustration, especially as a manager, to get a goal to go ahead or get back in a match and then surrender a goal a minute later? To get a goal to go ahead. Or to get back in the match. Oh, no, the biggest frustration is going ahead and then two seconds later you let one in. That is, that is, oh. Yeah, I mean, that drives you insane. Kind of happened to Benfica. Yeah, that drives you insane. Yeah, easily, easily that one. That one. Next question for Xhaka. Xhaka, who does Eddie Howe or you want? Chelsea or Barca? I'd take Chelsea. Oh. I think Boston would be a better team, quite simply. You'd take the lesser team. All right. Simple as. Oh. All right. That's it for this edition of Extra Time. That's it. I thought you had more, Alexis. All right. Okay. Never mind. Time. Never mind whatever you're going to do in a minute. I was told that Jules is having people over at 11. We kept him too late. He's got a load of people outside. This is what he said. Oh, somebody told me there was a party going on. It's him. It's him. He's got a party. They're all standing outside. I'm going to bed. I'm going to bed. I'm sorry. The last question was for Jules. But alas, he's going to have to wonder what it is. All right, Jules, go ahead. He's going to have to get the hors d'oeuvres ready. Enjoy your party. Must be nice. Must be nice. Have one for me, Jules. Yes. Have a great juice for Stevie. What? Because Jules doesn't really drink adult beverages. Must have got to do Stevie though. Should have got to do Stevie? He doesn't have one for him. ESPN FC, we're on every day of the week. Dan and Craig will be back tomorrow as well as Jules once he recovers from his party.