Mindhunters

At TUI, we give you more. More outfit choices, with 20kg of luggage allowance as standard. More hotels, built around what you love, like that swim-up suite. More, race you to the bottom, water parks on site. More, ooh, that looks good. Food options, from poolside snacks to ala cart dining. Book on app, in-store or online. You book it, TUI sort it. At all and after protected, keys and C's apply selected hotels What is the movie? Where does it stream? What is the movie? Where does it stream? We saw Mind Hunters, so you know what that means. Now it's time for How to Discrepe We're gonna have a good time, celebrate some failure, not just be a hater Cause you know you wonder, how to discrepe Let's all win the mediocrity of subpar art Perhaps we'll find the answer to the question, how did this get made? Hello people of Earth and welcome to How Did This Get Made? I'm your host Paul Sheeran. Today we are talking about the 2005 Renny Harlan directed action film, Mind Hunters. Now, in case you didn't watch, this is what you need to know. There is this FBI instructor, played by Val Kilmer, who's evaluating new recruits to join a serial killer profiler team. And here's the thing, Val Kilmer's methods, a little unorthodox. Often includes creating very realistic simulations of murder scenes using like sets and props and even actors. And for the final test, the group is brought to a remote island for simulation training. However, once they are there, they realize that they are being hunted by a serial killer, who might be someone that they actually know. Could it be LL Cool J, a last minute addition to the team, who was sent along to the team, just observe, we will soon find out. But let's not get into any of that before we introduce my co-host. Please welcome, June Diane Raphael and Jason Manzookis. How are you both? Wow. I mean, it does. I'm worried. Is this podcast episode a test? Oh, are we in simulation? Or is it a trap? OK, this is a movie. What time is it? It's what I need to know. More clocks, please. This is a movie that infuriates me on so many levels because very much like Law, Biting, Citizen June, which you were not present for, a movie where there's a lot of traps and a lot of things and you have to be like, how did this all come together? I'm going to put some of that on the side and just focus on the opening, which you see this man incredible approaching a car in the middle of winter and his hand touches, you know, the hood and we see like a masked glove like by the woman's face looking as if like, uh-oh, this is a bad guy. It's a bad guy. And it's just Christian Slater. And we're like, OK, well, that's going to pay off. Like that creepy moment should definitely pay off. It doesn't. But now I'm going to put that on the side and go, now we're just in the real world. I want to make sure I'm clear on this with you both. We're in the real world. We are interviewing real people because we're on the road. We're in the middle of the forest and we believe that we're in the world. Well, I mean, yeah, that's what the move here is really like. Once you start pulling at the threads, this thing, this falls apart. That's so quickly because, you know, the entire cold open of the movie is this very high stakes, high tension thriller kind of beginning where the end of silence of the lambs like that or seven or something like that. You know, like one of these kind of we're going to find the serial killer and then they find the house, they go in, they find they can hear the girls, the kidnapped girls. They're there. They do all of it all the way through both of them being killed. Christian Slater and his partner, Catherine Morris. They are the only two people who they are. They don't wait for backup. They go barging right in and boy, oh boy, do they get killed. And they get killed in such a crazy way because also I will say the way it's shot. I was writing down all these jokes like, oh, well, this is a haunted house. It looks like a haunted house. Like it looks like something that I've paid $40 to walk through and have people jump out at me. And but I also was like, what am I seeing? I can't see anything like the camera angle was obscuring enough stuff. I was like, is that person did he shoot himself in the head? Are those girls like dummies or are they real? I couldn't quite and I was getting irritated. Only to reveal. It was all set. It was all. Yeah. And God, so many questions. It's very hard in a movie like this because you have to hang on to just what are the truths that you know? And like what are what what is what can I hold on to to orient myself and to come back to over and over? Yes. One of the things that I feel like was was important was the amount of flies around the serial killers, you know, area serial killers work. Lots of flies. Yes. Oh, and not just the the flies, but the sound of the flies sound of the flies. That was very important. I would have loved to have seen a moment because we do see Val Kimmer breaking down the scene once it's revealed. It's all set dealing with like the fly Wrangler, you know, like, guys, it was good. It was too much on the flies. We get a few. So roughly now I understand we will get to the island in which the Navy uses it for simulation purposes. All sorts of like ops are there. We're talking about Omega. That's right. That's fine. That's an island, but this is a place I guess outside of Virginia is in Virginia somewhere where it felt like it was on a Hollywood set. Like, and I say that not like, you know, like the way that they had control of the lighting and everything. I guess this is wondering like roughly how much does that cost? It's got to be a staggering amount just to produce the escape room that Christian Slater and Catherine Morris have to go through must have cost millions. That's what I'm wondering. Millions of dollars. Because I want to just go back when you're talking about the flies and how important it is that the flies are buzzing around the corpses and the dead people. You see someone go in and turn off the tape player that is playing the flies. So it's all it all falls apart like immersive. And the cake is real. I mean, because Val Kilmer does as he's chewing them out is eating a piece of cake that was left on the table where the serial killer. I guarantee that was an improv from Val. Oh, absolutely. But like that's, you know, we're tax paying citizens like that's if you guys find a bar like that's millions of dollars. But now that's like sending Caspital to the Olympic. Now, what are we doing? But here's the thing I want to go back one step on because I guess I just have to leave out the fact that they were in the middle of the wilderness interviewing subjects. It's like, so in this world, they had to find this house. Like that's part of the mission. Yes. Okay. So, okay, I'll buy that. But they are training to be profilers. Which is I know where you're going with this. Paul, it's just the same question I had. Yeah. Okay, go for it. Tell me. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be an FBI profiler and I don't know that much about this, but I'll speak on it anyway. It seems like you have to be doing some deep psychological work. Lots of research. Lots of like, how does the human mind work? You were way past like one on one. We're really, you know, we're on message boards about young white men who are categorically usually serial killer. We are doing that type of work. We are not doing the tactical sort of knocking on doors. Not knocking on doors. They're not knocking on doors. No, we're not clearing rooms. That's not our area. And it seemed to be that Val Kilmer's biggest issue was with their tactical powers. Not their ability to profile. Special Agent Moore, when is the situation secure? On the drive home. On the drive home. That's right. On the drive home. Sir, we did shut up. Cigarettes on the table, more at the door, different brands. Two cars up front. Four place settings, not three. All should have the lure to do the possibility that there might be another suspect. I think... Sorry? What? What did you say? I think you enjoy watching us fail, sir. Better in here than out there. You know this really happened? The unsub was apprehended under two minutes without a shot fired. Took you guys seven minutes and you killed your partner. Here's the thing. What they failed to do was not profile, but just not take in all the information. Like, oh, didn't you see there's four... It seems like a different skill set. 100%. Four plates on the table? Yeah. That's all right. That's all right. Like a homicide department. Just like cops clearing rooms, going through, looking for clues. Because they also wanted them to be a SWAT team. Like, I don't think that any of these skills transfer to profiler. No. No. I mean, by the way, I'm going to say this. They're all bad. In a movie where the main idea is there is a killer amongst them and they have to profile each other, this movie fails at that. Yeah. Dumbest motherfuckers that never use any bit of information. And even in the big end reveal, which we'll get to eventually, but it's not even like, oh, I profiled him. She basically just marked him with paint. I mean, it's really similar to, it's like, it's like a horror movie that's happening. It's like a group of teenagers who happen into a house full of traps. Right. Like they are, they are acting with the same kind of chaotic, we don't know what to do that teenagers would, but they are meant to be the best of the best and they, they don't work together. They don't use their brains. They don't use their skill sets to the best of their abilities. They are constantly just, it's scene after scene where they're just pointing guns at each other being like, it's you, it's you. It's you. I know it's you. It's like, it's like the movie, the thing with idiots. Like the thing where it's like people who are not supposed to be profiles are smarter at figuring out who is an alien and who is not. And these are just normal people. And here's the other thing. They don't have a different skill set. They all are equal, which is an other odd thing. So this is a team where everyone is on an equal footing. Like no one's like, oh, you're the, you know, you're the ballistics person. You're the, this person. They are all, they are all. They also are like, each trap seems to be, so, so, so in the story of the movie, the, the killer is picking everybody off one by one or sometimes in pairs or whatever. And there's a watch that appears or a clock that appears with the time of the next murder. So everybody knows, okay, in between now and then we have to figure out what's going on. But the timelines are like two hours. And the killer somehow has set up traps inclusive of draining an entire body of all of its blood and using all of that blood to write numbers all over the walls that are some sort of code. Well, at that point, they've been asleep for five hours and they drank the bad coffee. So he has five hours to set up a day's worth of, oh, he or she. So everybody is like, ignore the numbers. The numbers don't matter. Let's find the trap. And I'm like, the numbers definitely matter. They all work together. They never like, you figure out this and I'll figure out that. They are all like, just, it's like, it's the worst people in escape room. Paul, they're so, they get so angry at each other for trying to, trying to profile. Yes. They're like, enough of that. Let's find the killer. Like enough. We gotta kill somebody. Enough of the numbers, enough of the letters. Now there's letters. Fuck those letters. Fuck those numbers. It's like, wait. It would have made more sense if the thing had happened where it was like three profilers and three like soldiers. Tactical. Yeah. You know, like three. Cause it, and the idea was oftentimes you guys are paired together in the field. Yeah. Use your complimentary skill set to solve these problems. What's it gonna be? Yeah. They all brought guns. And here's the other thing that really cracked me. But again, just to drive home, how much this movie does not even embrace the premise of the film, which is LL Cool J is like at the very last minute, brought on to join the team to observe because you know, people are like, to your point, June, where, why is Val Kimmer spending all this money? Uh, that's up. Is that how it, is that how it runs in the beginning? I thought he said he was joining to observe. He's an investigator with the Department of Justice. He says, right. Okay. Jason, first he says he's introduced as a police detective who just wants to tag along and see how they work, which makes a little bit of sense. Kind of what we're talking about. Sure. And then it's, then the, the crew becomes suspicious of him because they find maps and information that he has about the island that they're on. And then he comes clean and says, listen, I'm not who I said I was. I'm here investigating Val Kimmer. The Department of Justice thinks he has too much power, basically. And now here's what I will say. I don't remember if this is him because they didn't write down who wrote this, but I, I'm gonna bet that it was LL Cool J when he goes, you all think you're profilers. I'll profile you right now. What you say about me doesn't tell you about me. It tells me about you. Now I could say your little gambling means you have an addictive personality. I could say I know you're sleeping with one of the guys in this room. I could say you take charge of your team because you never had a leader in your own life. And you, when push comes to shove, you crack under pressure. Your partners can't depend on you. You don't belong here. And when he's profiling one of the women in the unit, right? This is, I believe, Patricia Velazquez. That's the actress's name. He goes, and you're sleeping with one of the guys. It's like, well, that's not a, that's not a profiler thing. Because at one point he's like, you have daddy issues. You do this. You're sleeping with one of the guys. That's not like, it's, it's more detective work. It's not like, it's not psychologically, that's not what she's made of. It's just like, oh yeah, you are fucking somebody here. That's okay. And that's fine. Thing, but you can't sell that next to you have daddy issues. You've always left behind. Your birthday is September 19th. Yeah. It's like, it's not, that's not what we're doing here. But that's like, those are the kind of like, this movie is making all the short cuts and broad strokes. It's not interested in any of these people going deeper and actually trying to crack the case, which was disappointing because it really stays at the same level the whole time. Everybody is just inactive panic throughout and they never. Here's my question. Why, I, I couldn't understand why they wouldn't assume that Val Kilmer was the killer or that they, they do it at one point, but then they let go of that so quickly. And it's like, well, only because they find his body. Well at the end, but so many people die before then. And I'm like, why, why are you assuming it's also Val Kilmer clearly did not stay for a life model mold because they really got to tell you, no, no, no, that's him, even though he doesn't really look the way that we. I like him. That's him. And, and, and there's a, there's a lot. The movie really wants to pull from all of those, you know, seven and those grizzly kind of. And so, and they're even trying to make this idea of like, oh, the puppet master is the serial killer. And then some of the bodies are strung up like marionettes and stuff, like almost like a puppet master would, but most everybody else just dies in a trap of some sort in a room type trap Indiana Jones style. Yes. Can I ask a question? So we're just here asking questions. So they are brought to this island by Val Kilmer to find an actual serial killer. Who? No, no. What? He was setting up a final. This is like their final exam. And it's like another one of this, the fake setups. Well, I know it's fake, but in the world of the fake set up, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. They are, no, that they are finding a serial killer and that that more next morning in Val Kilmer says it's going to strike tomorrow. You got to find the crime scene. I was waiting for that serial killer, that fake story to somehow fold in to our real story. Wouldn't that be great? Well, because you would think that Val Kilmer, who has left the island or we assume he has left the island, has started to set up these traps because where are those traps? And I think the first body is. Yes, I agree. His trap. But then we also don't know. Oh, I do. You're saying the body. They. Okay. I have a question about that. Well, who is that body? So well, I well, that's a mannequin. I thought that was a man. Okay, got it. I don't know. That's a mannequin. Val Kilmer's body also to me looks like a man. I know, I know. You did also text me. Who is that body? Dude, what's her number? What's her what's her deal? Who is that body? I mean, look, I'm always I very much like Corey Feldman. I want to help bring young girls to Hollywood and just teach them the. Oh, my God. So, but when they see that body, they there's a tape player that goes off Christians later, because of course he's the leader of the group, goes over, turns off the turns off the tape and then a domino setup gets started. And all the dominoes start to fall and things are happening. And they stop and stare. No one. They watch. No one, no one activates. Why wouldn't they stop it? They know that the entire before they even understand that there's zero killer in their midst. They understand that clearly. It's still the world of the simulation. Why wouldn't they stop there? Right. Even if they were doing the simulate, even if this was just pure, like low stakes, no stakes simulation, you know, no, no physical states, right? You know, they don't think they're going to be heard or anything. Like that. Still they're fine. Doing an absolute dog shit job of assessing the situation of clearing the rooms of looking for traps. Well, I guess they're profiling. Why would they know? They blow up the escape boat just by tripping a trip wire that was very visible. You know, they are supposed to be the best of the best. And they're in fact, the worst of the worst. And I would believe that these are the FBI profilers under Cash Patel. Verses in the two thousands. Breakups. That is a tricky one. That's why EE is the only major provider who give you up to 300 pounds to switch. You'll get full fiber, but you'll also get EE's most powerful Wi-Fi seven as standard. So the whole house can do more like streaming that series. Watch to work calls. Stay crystal clear. Switch to EE today. Up to 300 pounds credited to your account. Verify at EE.cuddy.cash claims new BT group customers only 62% availability terms apply. Now, I will say this, that I don't trust anything that Christian Slater does because he, well, first of all, I got some sweet CS butt cheeks out there. We got to see some, some. Oh, yeah. Sweet cheek. You got to see that Slater tush. Yeah, a little Slater tush. But he proceeds to have sex in, you couldn't make a more open area. And resonant. Right. It must have been so loud to have sex in like the communal shower, open stone, communal showers of the, everybody must have heard. And by the way, this is also a island that is used for military training. No one's ever lived there. It's just for military exercises. But yet when one of the guys is in a bed, there's all these like posters of naked women up on the wall as if it was someone's bunk. Or as if he decorated it. And then I was like, or did he decorate it because you would think. Or did Val Kilmer set the scene? Like, like how many people pre-production are going to the island to set it up? And by set it up, I mean, create a ultra realistic serial killer murder sites. You know what I mean? We know the Navy had just been there because they left the sitting ducks. You know, again, I was waiting for the Navy to somehow get folded back in and for them to find something that that was going to be important from the Navy. No, nothing. Nothing important ever happened. And, you know, spoiler alert for the movie that killer is revealed to be Johnny Lee Miller for reasons that I still am unclear on. Totally confused. Well, I guess the question also is like, there seems to be like obviously this final there's a competition element to it, right? Because apparently, according to Clifton Collins, it's like Val Kilmer is like writing his recommendations on his desk and he happened to walk into like his teacher's office and read the like read the wrecks and know that that Sarah is not being upgraded. So there's a little bit of competition there. Can I say something about Sarah being upgraded, though, Paul? Yeah. Her. The one of the reasons she is not recommended to be a profiler is because she panics. No, that's going to come back to us later on. She panics. But again, I have to ask who cares if your job is mostly in an office. Sitting in front of a computer. Panic away. Yes. We don't need to medicate for that. Just continue to panic and you don't have and or don't be. She doesn't have to in order to fulfill the duties of a profiler. She I don't think needs to be in the field, you know, doing gunplay. She can be in the office trying to crack the numbers code. That's I think the point of having the team is like, oh, the good with guns guy goes and does that. The people that are good at puzzles get to do puzzles and that's a cohesive unit. Nope. No, nobody does guns all the time. But if you are to treat the movie as truth, it is revealed that Johnny Lee Miller, the whole reason why he has done this is yes, he is a serial killer who has infiltrated the FBI's serial killer profiling program to figure out who the most worthy person is for him to challenge. And that is her. Like, so he's like, oh, wouldn't it be the best coup for me? Like, I don't want to just I don't want to just deal with it. I want to find the best of the best. So this has been for him a long time. Because that's that's interesting, because I could not for the life of me figure out what the deal was. Like, why something like that? But are you saying, Paul, that he he wanted sort of the most challenging prey? Yes. OK, so here's what's so crazy about him that even the fact that he penetrated the FBI. Now, both of his parents were murdered in front of him or it seems like both. Well, we will know they were murdered by him later. But but when we meet him, it seems that they were just murdered. That alone to me at 10 years old, that alone to me, it's like, I kind of want the FBI flagging that on some right. You would think at a certain point, someone would be able to say like, hey, why was his parents murdered? Let's just look into that a little bit more. But maybe he's very, very good. I don't know. You know what I wish for? I wish that he had been the one who killed her little sister. Yes. Well, there you have something. Yeah. And it's and it's and he put Clipton Collins, Jr. in the wheelchair. And what if he had connections to everybody that they didn't know about? What or like the idea that they float for LL Cool Jays character is that, oh, are you doing this as revenge because you didn't pass the exam? Like you're trying to get back. Like, did you just want out the FBI didn't want you? Like I couldn't figure out Johnny Lee Miller's, you know, it's just not enough time is given to it at the end. Like what what is he also changed when accent? Oh, does he change? It does change. I was I was his accent was so slight that I was like, is this I couldn't quite figure out if I mean, it's strange because he is a British person. Yes. His his character is American. And then when it is revealed, he is Southern. Yeah. When he when the final twist comes, he starts to affect like a weird Southern draw that wasn't there before. And I was like, I don't know what this is trying to tell me. There are notes of that Southern draw early on, but boy, does it come and go. Oh, I thought it was a different voice. I thought he was like, this is the real me. Right. No, it was sort of there at one point, but it is he's playing fast and loose with that accent. I was also sort of amazed early on. And maybe this is just a product of like movies used to feature like four white men on a team and no one blinked an eye, but there were so many of them. And they all looked so similar to me. I genuinely couldn't keep track of them. Agreed. I was happy when some of them got killed at the beginning because I was like, I don't know that guy's deal. Well, but I was upset that the first person who dies is Christian Slater, because I'm like, well, I understand who that is. But the guy like, but the guy who is like, then there's a gentleman who is that's Captain Collins, who is in a wheelchair. So I'm like, OK, that at least gives me another marker. Johnny Lee Miller is American and I know who he is because I know him as an actor. But then there's another British guy who is the guy whose head just pops right off of his body when they all wake up from the coffee. He looked like a robot. I thought it was going to be revealed that he was a Westworld robot because well, you saw strings in there that looked like Paul. It was I asked something about Christian Slater's death. Why? So he's being sprayed with step out of the way. Yeah. What liquid nitrogen nitrogen nitrogen. Yes. Some sort of it's a teaching situation. Out of the way, Jason. Yeah. OK, so step out of the way. It was as though he couldn't move, which I did have a question about. Is it paralyzing you? Immediately paralyzing you. And then my next question is like with the rest of the team did not move to also just take that container, take that blaster, turn it. Everybody watches. Everybody watches all the traps happen. OK, they're frozen. Until they end. Yes, they don't try and intercede in any traps execution. They just watches it. Watch it as if they are trapped and they're not. But here's the thing. That is one canister of liquid nitrogen that's shooting at his ankles. Now, yes, he could have easily just stepped back, stepped out of the way. Done on the top of his body down. Right. I don't even want to get into the fact that that is completely impossible. That would never happen. But the movie also posits the idea that if it starts at your ankles, it would freeze your body up to your head in seconds and crack you like a doll. Like he breaks like an icicle that drops onto the floor. He breaks in like so many pieces after being sprayed. Like, I mean, if you've not seen the movie, imagine like a birthday party. Helium canister is just blowing. It's not like in T2 where he falls into or whatever, a vat of nitrogen or whatever. This is a spray of nitrogen that freezes him and he's able to talk. He's like, stay where you are. He's still giving commands and I'm like, stop talking. Take a step to your right. Take a step to your right or someone just move that or turn it off, please. Now, here's because honestly, I have to say there was a part of me watching this because so many of them are witnessing the traps and just watching the traps happen. There is a part of me that's like, oh, my gosh, that's the horror of this movie. That's that's the scariest part. Right. You couldn't even do anything. Yes. Is that when confronted with someone in pain, someone suffering, an event happening before your very eyes, like people will freeze and watch and not intervene. That's where we're at. June, we've seen that numerous times in scare tactics. The premise of scare tactics, the horror prank show is like they put people in these situations and they often freeze as they are told or freeze. But I think the whole point of this program is at the level they're at, they would have already learned to push through that immediate freeze. They would have already learned the skill sets and tools to not just be observers to these tragedies, but to, in fact, either intercede or get to it before it happens. Well, the opening scene is that. I mean, the opening scene is saying, hey, guys, don't freeze, be smarter. And yet they aren't. And I thought that his death was so bad in the sense that he didn't do anything. I was like, oh, clearly he's the serial killer. Like he has set up some sort of contraption to make it look like his body broke into glass. Now, I will say this, you know, I know that you both love interior design. And I would love to show you that if you like interior design, you can actually purchase a broken Christian Slater. And I think Scott, can you pop that up there? This is this is the body. It comes on the special mount. It's on an auction house right now. Oh, my God. Yeah, the legs are separate. You can you can do the whole thing again. Yeah, you can get in there. Part of his face is peeling off. But again, that's a great centerpiece for a living room. That's the kind of thing that I feel like we should use our money to buy and then have it in the how did this get made house? I would love because I think a lot of people don't know that we all live together now. I know. And it's all live together now in a content house. That's kind of just about how did this get made? I am I have become obsessed on Instagram. There is a wax museum that is auctioning off every one of their wax figures. And they're pretty conservative. Like they're not they're not expensive to a certain degree where it's like all of a sudden I'm like, can I get this Tom Cruise? Can I get this Conan O'Brien? This J. Leno, the J. Leno one. The J. Leno one was the one that I was so close to. Why? Why is the J. Leno one the one you want? Because I think anyone would love a little J. Leno in the house. It's not little though is my guess. No, he's a life size. It's life size. Yes. Because then you know what's going to happen. And June, this is for you. If you allow Paul to buy the wax figure of J. Leno, he's then going to start saying, hey, I need an antique fire truck to go with the J. Leno doll. I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to get a lot of. I really sometimes I think about it like if I wasn't in his life, what his living order. I mean, it would just be, you know, tricky. It was just yes. He would be living in a house of horrors. Well, especially when you see like if you can get a J. Leno for a thousand bucks, why not? Like, like that's that's what life has opened up. Without you, June, I feel like the 15 foot skeleton that comes out at Halloween is out year round. And that's perhaps inside the house. We we have well, we have seen many a time. Now I will say and I will take all the slings and arrows. You want to throw at me, but that skeleton was was brought to this home by one person. My idea, but but it's great. I will say that that skeleton is very static and it has a point of view and it's very beautiful and there's our neighbors have to have one. You know, so that's that's a different thing. And I think that's a beautiful spook and a beautiful scare. Yes, I agree. I worry about with Paul. I want a shirt that says a beautiful spook and it's a big skeleton over somebody. But but what I really worry about with Paul and it's it's honestly scary to think about is just what if if given no boundaries. Yeah. You know, what he would come up with, what items, what figurines, what stickers, what is tricky for me, what kind of I don't even I can't even imagine. Oh, just the kind of auctions that he would be registering for and what they would be selling. What's always hard for me is when Paul comes home with things framed because it's like it's like it's really hard because I'm like, well, God, I've done this for a long time. I've not a long time. Very long time. Yeah, I've been I've been really good. But like it's it's really hard because it's like it's framed. And so when something gets framed, it feels like it's got to go. Exactly the piece that you're talking about. And you know, in retrospect and in retrospect, those are things I would get now. I mean, times change. Like the most chilling. So to you, June, the most chilling words out of Paul's mouth are, I'm having the art hangers come tomorrow without you knowing why or for what to hang to hang what. Listen, I think at this point, we've been together for so long, like I don't fear that happening anymore, you know, but we definitely we definitely had a transitional period. There are moments there are moments. Now back to this film. My country. Can I ask you guys a question? Because like we've said, this is a this is a Renny Harlan movie who is like a real auteur of this schlocky era. And then, you know, like we said, Val Kilmer, LL Cool J, they're Johnny Lee Miller, there's recognizable names. There's recognized it's like it's got a vibe that feeds clearly expensive. They clearly spent money. I've never heard of this movie. Never. I ever when I clicked it up, I was like, I don't recognize any of these images. Any of this art. I don't know what this is. You know what I was so disappointed by when it started and even being in that bar scene, I was like, this is right up my alley. Yeah, right. Like I love. This is going to be fun. This is going to be so much fun. And I was so excited and I love the idea of they're all trying to out profile each other. And like I was just like, oh, finally, something for me, something for the girls, you know, but then boy, did it devolve. Well, I guess it really is. It's the kind of movie that structurally needs the team to come together, but they never do. Well, it's as if the movie never starts. It's just that people people just start dying. Nobody ever knows why. Nobody ever. The it also doesn't do that thing, which some movies do, which is let us, the audience in on information that the main characters don't have, you know, so that we know the trouble they're in before they do. They don't let that happen. And then it's your discovery and threads where, you know, when the island is brought up in the outer banks, cro, croatin or whatever, oh, yeah, I know. Crotoin, whatever that was. Yeah. And then, first of all, what the fuck was that? That doesn't even cut that doesn't even fold back. It was just. You would think it would be it would be important information dump and it's not. It doesn't matter ultimately. Well, that whole movie doesn't. Yeah. Yeah, it's not why he's doing this. He's doing this to find the perfect prey. It has nothing, no bearing on the rest of the plot. But again, when it's mentioned, I'm like, oh, OK, this is the movie that we're getting like revenge or figuring out a mystery of what happened on this island. OK. But you can't like give us you can't give us busy work because if you're going to take a moment to explain an island and a and a mysticism around it or a story, like, well, that's important. It's it's not like life. Like, you know, it's like every bit of information here is going to be building to a larger point, which again, why set up Christian Slater as the creepy guy? Yeah. And then also you kill him in such a way that it's like it would have to be insane for him to even have survived. Oh, I used a robot. I did this. So it's like it very. Or if he had just not been standing exactly where he was standing. That's the other thing is like these traps are it's like the game. Mousetrap, they are so random and but require such specific situations to unfold perfectly to the second that is just preposterous. Like just people moving through the world would not fall into these rhythms and this exact setups. But I guess the thing that I keep on coming back to is even like, where's the mystery? Like kill people in a way where they're not definitely dead. When you get like three harpoons to the chest. Yeah, you're dead. So you start taking people off the table in a way where it's like, oh, I don't know. Because I thought at one point when a Clifton Collins like crawls into the freezer room, by the way, they do collect Christian Slater's body and put it like in like they they morgue it up. I'm like, at this point, do we need to collect all the pieces? It's like, I feel like we should be solving this. Like something's going on here. Like we don't have time to get the gurney to load up the gurney to bring it into the thing. It's like, it seems like he's going to be frozen for a bit. I guess you're right. He was frozen. Why didn't Clifton Collins just stay in the free? Here's the other thing is once everybody is so suspect of each other and once people are really dying, everybody should just hide. Oh, my God, why did he get out of the freezer? Everybody just go hide on your own. He was told to hide. He should wait it out. Yes, wait it out. But the thing that the thing that actually really made me insane. And I wanted to throw the remote at the very end when L Cool J and Sarah are there and there is a helicopter in sight, but they've just, you know, they made it out. And she says, when do you know the situation is clear and resolved? Yeah, basically like don't party until you know the situation is cleared. And they both say to each other on the ride home. Yeah. And yet, but they're not on the ride home yet. They're not on it. One more twist. Yeah, there's going to be another great. The chopper just blew up. Yeah, they're not on there. Now, was that intentional to think? No, I didn't think so, Jason. I didn't think so. I don't think the movie is smart enough. Well, but I think that movie made me angry. I was like, how fucking dare you? You don't even need that helicopter to take off. Just put them in there somehow. Right. The same day you're shooting the helicopter coming to the island. Just shoot that other thing too, like the two of them leaving off. Well, now wait, so now you're just the line producer. I'm just trying to make the day. We've got the chopper for one day. We're going to do in the morning. We're going to because of Southern exposure, we're going to be looking. Oh, my God. Paul just wanted to do the one liner for this movie. Wait, are you giving us day out of dates for this? I sometimes look and this is the problem that I have now is like, not only am I looking for like that, I'm like, but why didn't they do it? They could have done it. They had they had it. Were they running over that day? Like when I start to look at when I look at it as a line producer, I really. That's another level of movie watching. Like I do think of that often. Well, how do they get over there? I must have. Why would they do that? Don't know what it's like in your house, but keeping everyone entertained can be a nightmare. Take the pressure off with EEs award winning TV and full fiber broadband with Netflix now, TNT, sports and more and get their most powerful Wi-Fi seven as standard so everyone can stream their films, series and sport at the same time. Switch to EETV and broadband today. New BT group customers only 62% UK availability terms applying. One of the things that I think could have been a theme for the movie that is not. And it is it is actually the theme of the movie is after the cold open when Christian Slater and Captain Morris are downloading with Val Kilmer and he's like, basically, here's how you fucked it up. This and that and this and that. You missed this clue. You missed that clue. You took longer than anybody else, blah, blah, blah. He's dressing them down. She's like, I don't understand how. What could we have done to save the girls? Right. And he says nothing. Girls are already dead. They couldn't have been saved. They this test was to get you used to not winning. Right. And I was like, oh, whoa, wait a minute. I know, I struggle with that as well. This is about this is about not winning the best. OK, so there's something and I think I was really rewound it and watched it twice because there was something very disturbing about and really unsettling about Val Kilmer's like worldview on crime. Because I think what he was saying is, hey, someone gets murdered. You find out just a regular old murder. You'll find out in 48 hours if you can get them. But if you can't, then it's done. Then it's done. You'll never find them. It's really unlikely. Put that over there. They're they're never going to get that's never getting solved, which I was like, OK, and then he's like, but if it's a serial killer, his point, if you almost seem to be, you want them to actually kill someone. Because then you can start building a profile. Start building a profile. Never ever. Wait, and it almost seems like you want more and more people to die so that that I think that's the kind of shit that LL Cool J is investigating as he should. And and by the way, then that would also make Val Kilmer the best killer for this thing. He should be a serial killer. That's the whole thing. Because what this movie devolves to is this moment, the least exciting. I'm pricking my finger to get blood out. I was like, what is it? I'm watching a montage of people like Plink, but a little blood thing. Terrible. Now as a line producer, how quickly do you think they were able to shoot all that? Oh, you could bring that up real quick. You could bring that really quick. You actually, yeah, you bring it. You shoot that on another stage while they're doing what they're setting up. Skeleton tour. That's it. Yeah. Do you guys think on this island? OK, this is an island, a remote island that is used as a training facility for the Navy. How did all these cats get there? Well, I feel like cats are on the island, right? Is that like a thing that Alcatraz has a bunch of cats? I think. Oh, does it? OK. I think. Yeah, I think there is. When they wake up in the morning and the cat is dead, hung. Oh, I don't know. And there's a badge stuck into it. I was like, that's the moment that I was like, this crew needs a joke. Well, OK, you know, because I was like, what rank is that cat? I didn't know the cat was one of the agents. Is that the cat's badge? I do want to also just talk about that from the point of view of it. Doesn't make any fucking sense because Sarah is brushing her teeth in the bathroom and the lights are off. And then when the lights come on, the cat is literally hanging behind her. So I don't even understand how she approached the sink without seeing a cat hanging from the ceiling. Why don't why don't you have to have a brush in your teeth? Just have her walk into the room and see the cat like, ah. But like, why are we? Everything is everything is needlessly stepped out. You know what would have been cool if the navy knowing that the FBI was coming had also set a bunch of traps. Oh, interesting. Wait, so you're saying, OK, so I just want to get this straight. Fun traps, right? So basically the navy is like, hey, you motherfuckers, kick us out of our island once a month or once a year. So we're going to sabotage it for you on top of your sabotage. Here's the way I would rewrite it. So there's this like real kind of rivalry between the navy and the FBI. Got it. Who's going to use the islands? Classic rivalry. And so they've set up. It's heated, you could say. Yes, it's a heated rivalry. They've set up all of these traps, but they're fun, right? OK, there's they're sort of like more like pranks, but they keep on derailing our crew because they don't know which is which. Right. So it could be like a pranker or a serial killer. And then the navy ends up being able to figure out that they're in trouble because some of their traps either didn't go off the way they expected it or something happened, which like the navy is by the way, actually, as I'm saying this, who was watching those cameras that were on Val Kilmer? But nobody didn't take off the didn't he take off the island or we guys he didn't take off. That's what they reveal is that he stayed on the island and with other FBI agents and was running the op until presumably Johnny Lee Miller goes, finds them, kills them all and strings him up because Johnny Lee Miller is the puppet. But the puppets. But at the same point in this. OK, sorry. At the same point, I wish I never happened. It never even started. And so his crew is immediately killed. And I guess the question is, so when was his crew immediately killed that night? Wouldn't it have been fun to cut into the control room and get to see Val Kilmer holding Gordon being like, let's do this, let's cue that, let's set up this, let's do that for a little bit of that beginning of act two. Have there be like a little you could still believe, oh, wait a minute, maybe Val is the big bad and he's you know, because the team thinks he flew off the island, but we the audience know he's there and maybe this is his thing. Maybe he's trying to eliminate them. Maybe he thinks they're coming for his job or maybe he's just lost his mind or any of the things that you cast Val Kilmer to represent should be present. But in fact, none of it is. None of the kooky crazy Val Kilmer stuff. He just gives a speech at the beginning and that's it. You know, none of the fun antics of the Navy. No, no, and no Navy pranks. And so, but again, I guess what I'm looking at too is like from again, not to look at it from a line producers point of view, but if I'm a if I'm a military line producer, I'm like, well, we just wasted all this money. Like because a clearly. I think military line producers love wasting all the money. All right. Well, I mean, I'm just looking at it from a a budget. I'm like, this guy made me rent out this island and they didn't even get there. All the profilers are dead. Now I got to do it again. See, for me, I'm looking at this from a wardrobe department. OK, got it. OK, so yeah. And I'm like, you know what? We could have differentiated who a lot of these people were with wardrobe changes. You know, like, have someone be in like a Mets jersey or something that is truly identifiable so that you can really start to tell some of these guys apart. Well, because you want you want a little bit of like personality in these guys. Now, at the end, I mean, they keep on blaming LL Cool J. It can't be more clear that it's not LL Cool J. Right. Like it's like he passes every test, but yet Sarah beats the shit out of them. But wait, why does I may be revealing that my own dumbness here. Why does LL Cool J shoot that one guy in the like he shoots Johnny Lee Miller in the street? And that's Sarah. I didn't understand why I didn't either. OK, God, that makes me feel good. Unless LL Cool J figured it out, figured it out. If LL Cool J has figured it out, he thinks I'm I'm killing the killer. But then. You know, but then you would need a moment when she starts beating the shit out of them. Hey, I figured it out. It's not me. It's him. And he starts to prove it again. The only profiler in the mix, if he does do that. But here's a question I have, though, is that is she? So she is able to find out that LL Cool J is not the killer because she puts that special like blue light on his hands and that is, by the way, not profiling. Powder. On the clock. Right. And the powder from. But the powder she uses is from the the writing on the backs of their of their jackets, which really frustrated me because it's like they've all touched those jackets. Correct. And not only that, not only that, Johnny Lee Miller, when he picks up his hands and it's revealed that the the liquid or the whatever is on his hands, it's all over his hands. Right. How did he not notice he must have been hand that clock must have been slick with the liquid grabbing at it every level. Well, so when did she turn back those clock? I mean, I don't know. What was the cigarette made out of, by the way? Oh, it's got acid in it. I mean, they say it had acid. I mean, but the amount of acid. How did he insert acid into a cigarette in like minutes? And by the way, not even like he's in he's put so much acid in the cigarette that if the if the cigarette touched the ground it burned through. So that would mean that if you touched it to take it out, her fingers would have just melted off, right? Yes. How did it? How did the cigarette exist in a pack of cigarettes without the acid just dripping straight through the paper? It seemed to have been activated by the lighter. I guess so. I was also thinking the whole time, like as soon as shit started to hit the fan at 10 a.m., I was like, sweetie, go have a cigarette. Yeah. Like it is not that like, please fuck the patch. Go have your cigarette. You are about to die. Wow. OK. So you're also these are some of this stuff too. Is if this movie was at all fun, I wouldn't be looking so critically at it. You know, like I would be willing to be like, oh, and I loved it when she lit the cigarette and it was acid and she melted into the thing because that caused this to happen. It was so fun and it really paid this off or whatever. No, because it seems so random. Each thing seems so random. And I know that it's every kill is tailored to that person's particular weakness hers is cigarettes and this person's is panic. Yes, I guess. Push everybody's buttons, but it's not really there. It's not satisfying in any way. You know. Well, I think that, you know, look, does this movie work? Absolutely not. Is it well active? Probably not to the degree that I need it to be because I'm not ever feeling the only time I felt tense in this entire movie and not frustrated was when the moment when Christian Slater came up to the car window, I was like, oh, cool, what are we going to see? That's the only tension moment in the movie because the rest of it is really like kind of bare knuckle brawling. It's like there's no like, you know, that famous scene in one battle after another where, you know, they're doing a blood test. So cinematic, so cool. Love it. And it's like the same thing. Rene Harlan, Paul Thomas Anderson. But it's like, how did you make the like the most exciting detective moment is a machine telling you who is the person? And guess what? The machine's wrong. Yeah. And the machine is how? How did he get the machine to be wrong? Because he put blood under her finger, right? But he put blood, he moved the blood, I guess, which is really. It's it's unsatisfying in a way that like, you know, when you pull at the threads of the reveal of at the end of usual suspects, you know, and it's like, oh, wow. He really did all of these things and you kind of get glimpses of all of the ways in which he kind of was able to do it. It all kind of falls into place. None of that is present here. No, like it's a it's a big reveal without any supporting data or any supporting imagery that helps us understand how Johnny Lee Miller, how and why. Why? I guess we're meant to believe he's just wants to kill. Here's the other. He wants the best, the best person to kill. He wants a good opponent. Wouldn't it be Val Kilmer? You would think. Right. He seems to know the most. But I think that I was also really shocked that as soon as they suspected someone of being the uns, what do they call it? Unsub. Oh, yeah. Unsub. By the way, the original title of the film. Unsub. Unsub. Unsubscribe. Oh, my. I mean, by the way, they're like, oh, yeah, the studio thought that mind hunters is better. You think unsub? What did they say this week? Unsub. Unsub. Unsub. So is it a submarine? Is it a submarine movie? Unsub actually makes me believe every bit of bad writing that we have having a problem is like, if you, if you after writing a great script, we're like, unsub. Like, no, no. Like that level, like you didn't do it. You didn't do enough work. OK, but if they, they all, as soon as they accuse someone of being the unsub, the entire crew immediately pulls their gun out on them and it looks like they're about to shoot them. And I'm like, I know you are like a member of law enforcement on some level. Like how about detain them? How about arrest them? How about take a set of handcuffs and handcuff them? Like, I guess they do that with all the cool drip. But I'm like, it seems like the immediate response is you have to die now. Yes. Right. Immediately, like everybody panics all the time. They are panicked. They are meant to be the elite. And at no point are they like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We are the best of the best. We need to get our act together and work together to solve this problem and get out as a group. And in fact, it's it truly is everyone for themselves. Everyone is acting so weirdly selfishly. They're not a good team. And maybe you could maybe if we rewatched it, you would see Johnny Lee Miller. No, Jason, don't give it up. Sowing discord or something like that. But it's just not in them. It's not that. Can I just say this? If I was going to go back in the movie, the only thing I would be watching is Johnny Lee Miller's jacket, because clearly he's held everything in his jacket. His jacket is I got remotes. I got transistors. Like he would be buzzing. He is he is wearing like I've seen this before. Like, Jason, you might have seen this on some travel websites. These like travel jackets where you can put them on, but you can also shove your computer back. So it's like a jacket. Like harnesses and 43 pocket. Charging cables. Has he killed since he was 10 years old? I have to imagine, yes. Yeah, wouldn't it have been great if it turns out that the that he is responsible? He is the case study that Christian Slater and Catherine Morris, that house that that's his murder, like the person they're studying in profiler class is in fact part of the class, you know, they should have made. They should. Yeah, this should have been the most elusive serial killer. Then there's like, let's recreate his last crime scene. Let's do this. I will say this. She doesn't even profile him at the end. The way she gets him at the end is through thing. I mean, literally just fingerprinting. Like it's there's nothing about it. She doesn't go, of course, you did this and you did this. She just figures it out because of the the fingerprints. So it's like she doesn't get a win. She's not even good. Practical. Yeah. And he just confesses. Right. She doesn't do anything. She does. She's looking. She is looking at LL Cool J's hands. Does not see the glowy substance looks confounded and he holds his hands up. To be like, dummy, dummy. To be like, hey, it's me. Had he not done that, she would never have checked his fingers. I think she would have thought she was the murderer. I think she might have been like, oh, no, did I do it? She would hold her gun out on herself. I'll take myself out just in case. Oh, my God. That's the best. And then he's like, I killed my parents and nobody ever asked me. Nobody ever said, did you do it or why? Nobody ever asked me. He's he just wants to be recognized as the murderer. I guess. Again, I want to talk about this from the other perspective of saying, LL Cool J jumps on board. I'm here to monitor because he's been spending too much money on props and renting houses and fly sound effects. And and then what you reveal is I wanted to be with the best of the best because I am a serial killer. So he coordinated his appearance there because he is a master serial killer and he's like, I needed to do a cat and mouse. And but yet there are no clues. It's really just countdown clocks. And but again, it's like there's there's no reason to feel excited about any of these choices. Like, no, I just never understood where the clocks came from. If you had told me like, oh, yeah, my parents died at the strike of midnight or I killed them at the strike of midnight or I was I was assaulted by a clock like, I don't know, I needed. Assaulted by a clock. Another great t-shirt. I just imagine the scene. So much imagine the scene that we never saw, which is Johnny Lee Miller packing to go to the island. Oh, it's like everything. It's a dozen watches. It's 500 clocks. By the way, all those they're all they're all not automatic, but they're all manual clocks. So again, if you're next to Johnny Lee Miller, all you're hearing is like he is a walking time bomb, literally. Also, one of the traps is like, I think three crossbows. Yes. That one guy gets hit with three arrows. Is that that are fired? I don't know from what, but I got to assume crossbows. OK, but here's my question about that trap. The initial trap before that trap set off is someone getting electrocuted in the water. Maybe I like to drink. My favorite line in the home movie, which was like so. Like basically it's like this action scene where he's trying to get to get to reach down. And then. Oh, my God. First of all, that was a very long sequence of watching. So long. Shoot out a cement wall. And he says that the the breaker rooms behind there. And as he's shooting, I'm like, is he just going to try to shoot his way in there? Are we going to be watching this for hours? I thought so too. It was so drawn out. And then you realize, no, he's just shooting sort of like footholds. Hand and foothold so he can boulder like so he can free solo from one room to another so he can throw the circuit breaker so that he and Clifton Collins Jr. won't be electric. I tell you, when he started to free solo, I was like, I can't take that anymore. But wouldn't the lights in the water flip the circuit breaker on their own? Wouldn't that surge flip the circuit breaker and turn it off? I don't know about the engineering of that. I don't know. I just think that's an old building and I feel like there's circuitry. But here's my question, though. So initially the trap was you're going to be electrocuted by the water. But then and nobody was nobody I think happened to be. OK, right. But then there's a double trap. Well, there are two watches, remember? Oh, I don't remember. So before that trap, before that trap, they found two watches. So that was a duke. So which says this is the next one's going to be a double murder, which it looks like it's going to be. I see. So you first think and I think the misdirected is what's his face? You think it's going to be those two guys that are in the water? What's that? But then it is just one. Yes. Because they survive. The first one didn't go off. But again, it would have been three. If both LL, Kujie and Clifton Collins, Jr. had died in the electrocution and those guys shut the water off and got the crossbow arrows, three people would have died. Right. He could have been done. The movie is a mess. The movie, it's also like he could have, so I guess at any given point, the movie could have been over. Yes. Well, at any given point, the movie could have started. It could have started and finished. The movie exists in like liminal space. OK, it's time out of time. But it really is. So here's my question, though. I know he references this and there's a flashback to Johnny L. Miller at the front of the line on the front lines heading toward that boat. But what is the justification for why he was in the front when the bomb goes off on the boat? I think so. He can set off the bomb. Even though it was a very simple trip wire. Retroactively, now that we know he's the bad guy, I think he needs to blow up that boat so they can't get off. He needs. So I think he's purposefully sabotaging. I mean, I know, but he's also crazy. That's true. But I think he probably figured it all out. I mean, he seems, again, say what you will about Johnny Lee Miller. He's planned a lot of stuff and with with very. You know what? You're right. Why are we drilling down on three murders versus two? Yeah, he did plan a lot of stuff and a lot of stuff worked. He's pretty effective. Yeah. And when I say it's like the game Maus Tramp, that is what it's like. It is like everything feels on the verge of being a Rube Goldberg machine. Rube Goldberg murder machine, which is the name of my punk rock band. I love it. And it really is like so convoluted, you know, like the one the crossbow one. That makes the most sense. Turn this wheel crossbow. Go. Great. I love that. Some of the other ones are so weirdly like. I still why drain his blood. Why and why write all of those numbers in blood in the blood to communicate? He's a real sick. Oh, guys, you got your every profile of anybody? I mean, I know a lot about this world. They don't they have no interest in solving any of the mysteries. They just want to find the trap. Here's the thing. But here's the thing. They should have really started not just pointing fingers and trying to shoot each other and blaming each other, but really started to try to find out a lot about each other. Yeah, right. Because that's the movie. Absolutely. And it's like, well, Johnny Lee Miller, like, why did you what were your parents like, what happened? And also, why did he kill them? Yeah, yeah. Because he's sysco. That's all we need to know. We just need to know he's a killer. A ten year old sysco, Paul. Hey, I don't smell him. I don't smell him. I just tell him. Oh, boy. Oh, God. I'm just telling you what the what the what is. Look, obviously, we had opinions about this movie. People are the different opinion. Wolves of Glendale play us in. In a second. Oh, give me a second. Oh, we need a second. A. So surprisingly, Jason, earlier in the podcast, you said I I didn't ever heard of this movie. Many people have not. This is one of the lowest scene films that we've done in a long time. I know this because only 735 reviews for a movie that came out 20 years ago. That's pretty low for us. 77 percent are five star reviews. And yeah. And, you know, look, there's this is the people that found it loved it. Well, yes. And and, you know, and a lot of them are just taking a lot of anger out on the people who didn't like it, you know, you know, they don't listen to those couch potato critics who gave it one star. It's better than that. Right. We we've read of those a million times. But I'm just going to kind of hit ones that I thought were a little bit better, like Patricia Fentress, who titled a review, got to say, I outright love this film dot, dot, dot, and you will too. I'm sure. Now, Patricia writes, this was an amazing movie. I have to be honest, when I saw the DVD on the shelf, I wasn't too sure about it. The cover caught my attention and so did the title. So I picked it up, took a look at the cover and a little better saw one of my favorite rappers and actor was in it. And I said, hmm, and I took a look at the preview in the back. And after reading the preview, I was still left a little unsure. But I was interested because LL Cool J was in it. Hmm. I thought about it for a bit because I was a little disappointed in some of LL's earlier movies, you know, Deep Blue Sea caught up and H2O. But I said, hell, I'll try it. And after watching the movie, I am glad I picked it up because it is for sure going into my growing DVD archive for good. If you like LL Cool J like I do, you will for sure love his acting in this one. And if you like really good who done its cop movies, movies that keep you guessing and scratching your heads or movies leaving you saying, I would never have thought of that or I never knew or saw that coming or really didn't. Decent action movies or thrillers. Then this is a movie for you. You will for sure love this movie. Or even if you want to try to get into one of those kinds of movies, this is kind of a great one to start off with. It for sure left me floored with my mouth open, saying no freaking way. How in the hell and just left in awe. I cannot say how much I enjoyed this movie. It is a must see. Wow. I mean, not just an incredible review, but it beautifully acted. Yes, I mean, one of the best. Now, I mean, really, I will say like you brought that to life. Yeah. And if you just listening at home, but if you were to be watching Paul really find the new ones, find this the truth of in the inside of this. That's all I can do. You know, this is the way I kind of am able to get my acting out. You know, it's like they don't pay me to act. They pay me to wait. And so I'll act for free whenever we get chance. It's so interesting. I will say now that I'm thinking about it, LL Cool J. I think stealthily becoming a how did this get made also. Absolutely. And by the way, I love watching him on screen. He's so watchable. I am so endlessly watchable. You know, my parents made me destroy my LL Cool J album when we were on a born again Christian moment because they had heard about LL Cool J and you know, and it was and it was the I'm bad album, you know, so it was early LL and and man, I was it was a real rough moment because I saw my like in my mind, if I could wear like the black leather pants and the big chain I would have a Kangol hat. I would have done all that stuff. And you didn't you couldn't convince your mom that ladies love Cool J. I mean, I was trying to I thought that she would be open to that. But no, she wasn't. And that's heartbreaking. You know, and I was so mad like as a parent now, I'm like, I wish you had just never gotten those albums to have a kid get them and then have to destroy them. Oh, yeah, I had to destroy the three of destruction. Three albums were destroyed on three different occasions. One was Poisons. Look what the cat dragged in. OK, to break that album over my knee and then throw it in the trash can and vinyl vinyl. Like also just take it from your child and walk away with it. Like the fact that you had to do it out of circulation. Yeah. And and it was it was a low garbage day. So I saw it in the garbage for quite some time. Like, you know, so that was tricky. You have to stop. You have to stop. This is too much for one. And then the the other one was In Excess Suicide Blonde. That was a CD because my mom thought it was promoting suicide. Even though that song is not about promoting. It's not at all that. OK, that I would because I was like, In Excess makes no sense. That CD was just taken from me. I didn't have to destroy it, but I had the case but never had the CD again. And then too much that LL Cool J was tricky because LL Cool J was a tape. And tape over it. No, I it was it was a tape that was like bought at the store. So it wasn't like that. And I had to smash it with a hammer. I remember where it was on my front porch. OK, I honestly cut cut. Oh, stop the recording. I cannot take anymore. That was a trick. That was that the LL Cool J was the one that hurt the most because I just loved it. So much a listener. Do you think there's anybody who listens to this podcast for whom they discovered it at a young age and their parents said, you can't listen to this? Like, are we the LL Cool J to anybody in the audience? Were you a young person who was told this is for grownups or something? I've talked to many people who tell me that they listen to this with their kids, but then their hand is very closely on the volume button because they never know when it's going to be very tricky. But they but they are they are taking that they're taking that risk. OK, we're not a dirty, dirty show, but I think it's less about. No, it's really just language. Yeah, you know, but I'm so I'm so curious if there's anybody. If you're out there, you know, let us know of your parents. Let us know if we were ever forbidden in your household. I will read you one of the reviews, just because it was pretty good. This is from that we had to go to IMDB to find more reviews, because Amazon was a little empty. We went to IMDB and found this one by Sweet, Lovely, Crazy Butterfly, who also reviewed in 2005. Both of these are from 2005. These reviews, I have been reading comments where people say some situations are over the top and that they act silly and do stuff that are hard to believe. Well, seeing as they are professional profilers and must have great minds, what did you expect? Of course, the whole plot was a bit dramatic. But hey, the dude is crazy and brilliant. What did you expect? It's a fantastic movie. And I fail to see why people are so into putting down great movies. I bet some saw it twice just to find something wrong. Then again, I agree, some actors could be different, but the whole team fits perfectly. So why the hell are you complaining? In my opinion, the best part was when they all fall asleep because of the coffee. And when Sarah changes the time to stay 15 minutes behind, really clever stuff. And Nick's death was the most well thought out, in my opinion. Dot, dot, dot. Great job indeed. Ten out of ten. What if one single person had said, I don't drink coffee? You know what I mean? Like, I'm just going to hydrate. I'm just going to drink water. Yeah, I don't need to get just one. Yeah, I have a weird reaction to caffeine. I don't do coffee. You know, like I've never been in a room with everybody is six or seven other people. And every person is like, yep, coffee, let's go. I was right in my thought that this was shot primarily because Align producer saw an easy way in it was because this is a place, a fake village that they were able to get used by the Dutch government. So it's a fake village where riots are similar. Yes. Wow. Yeah. And so you can actually see a lot of Dutch writing if you look closely at the post or some of the wall. Funny. See, that's, boy, I like that. There's something interesting about that. But there's also something that makes no sense. It's really hard to put a serial killer story inside of only law enforcement. Like there are no civilians being killed by Johnny Lee Miller, right? Like he's only preying on FBI agents, right? If it would be a and that's weird because you don't have that. It could happen to anybody. Fear he is purposefully going after the best of the best. So it really doesn't make any. You would think that he would be leveraging, killing innocents. And there should be something. It should be a trap situation. Enduring innocent. If they were in a trap situation where they had to find a serial killer in the in the, I mean, again, not to not saying that even as a joke, but put them in a live situation where there could be a lot more. Here's what it is. Here's what it is, even with the circumstances that there are that we have. The Navy is still there. There's there have been a series of deaths on this naval base on this island that the Navy so far has been unable to figure out. So they're bringing in the best of the best profilers and they've got to figure out. And then you find out it's it's one of their own. And he's been going and killing Navy people and who know. I don't know what, but that they're, I guess, then they are not innocent really either. I'm trying to it doesn't matter. Here's what I was saying. So much work has been put into getting this script back. But everyone agreed to this movie and worked their asses off. LL Cool J lost 40 pounds, traveled with the Philadelphia police department for weeks to figure out how to play this character. Clifton Collins, Jr. He decided to just take a wheelchair out to Hollywood Boulevard and acted in this way to make sure that he was playing it accurately. Here's the two things that I thought you would really like. Drard Butler was supposed to play the Johnny Lee Miller role, but then dropped out. I was like, I'm out. Would have been great. Now the original cast that they wanted. It was supposed to be Ryan Phillips, Reese Witherspoon, and their boss was going to be either Christopher Walken, Martin Sheen or Gary Busey. Not a great, not bad, not bad, not bad. And of course, and everybody younger. That's like a younger, which I think is a little bit more fun. The other thing that was interesting is apparently there's an alternate ending where LL Cool J kills Johnny Lee Miller's character. And I have a feeling just reading that now for the first time that that's what we see at the end. Oh, no, I guess it's not nearly Miller's wearing a bulletproof vest. I don't know. That's the that's how he gets away with that. But like, what if LL Cool J had just shot him in the head? No, no, no, no headshots. No, yeah, nobody's putting one in the brain. I'll Johnny Casper in Miller's crossing always put one in the brain. Nobody's doing that or John Wick, you know, body shot, body shot head shot. You see this? What are we doing here? And now, you know what? You may like Mine Hunters, but I'm going to stick with Allie Walker, Julian McMahon and Robert Davi. Those are my profilers. Four seasons, four seasons. Oh, yeah. Any final thoughts on this movie? Oh, this was, I will say, because we're getting there, not worth it. No, you know, not not not really worth it at all. My favorite, the thing that I loved the most. I love this era of boxy Volvo that when they were in the opening cold open, the whole thing takes place in a like old school box. Yeah. Volvo station wagon. I was like, give me this. I love it. I had one of those. Oh, you did? Yeah. For a little spell, we had one of those. And it, you bring them back. Yes. People think people like, I feel like car can be think we want these sleek looking, you know, curvy lines on cars. They all look the same now. Yeah. And we don't want that. And we want unique looking cars. If this even if they're not the most aerodynamic. You know, we care. I mean, who cares if the movie did anything it did that, which is make us think about car design and representation in the automobile industry. I don't know what to say about this. Again, I think it was just hard for me because I was so excited and I thought it was for me and then it wasn't. And the setup put so many interesting things into motion. That fell apart, including Val Kilmer. I was like, fuck, Val Kilmer is going to be in this. And I was excited about Christian Slater. Everything that I thought was going to happen didn't happen, but not in a good way. I agree. I will say one other thing if because it did remind me so much of of law abiding citizen that if you've not listened to our episode a few weeks ago from last looks, somebody from the film, I can't name who. They asked to be anonymous, gave us some great details about some of those gimmicks and effects and what went in behind them and a whole bunch of stuff. Oh, that's cool. And also sent me a picture and Junas will mean nothing to you. But the wrap shirt was the gun from the funeral gun, the one that like pops up. The robot gun. Yeah. That's that was the the wrap shirt. That was the wrap. Yeah, they knew what they were making. All right. Fun. Well, pleasure seeing you both here as always. Wow, we really did it. We really did it. Thanks so much for listening to How to Disk It Made. If you have a correction or omission from this episode that you want us to hear. Well, you can leave us a voicemail at 619 PAUL. A.S.K. at 619 Paul. Ask already comment on our Discord at Discord.GG slash HDTGM. Tune in next week to listen to our last looks episode where we respond to all of the best messages that you have left for us and we'll announce next week's movie that we'll be covering on the show. Plus, Jason is always joining me on last looks to chat about our favorite TV shows, movies, music, books, whatever is on our minds. Sometimes we just hang out. And if you need even more, How Did This Get Made? Before Friday's new episode, know that we re-release classic episodes from the vault every single Tuesday. If you listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please make sure you are subscribed to our feed and you have automatic downloads turned on in the show settings. That really helps us and we appreciate it. So make sure you got those automatic downloads turned on. And lastly, I got to give a huge thanks to our behind the scenes team. I'm talking about our producers, Scott Sonny, Molly Reynolds, our engineer, Casey Holford and our social media manager, Zoe Applebaum. We will forever be thankful to the one and only Averil Halley. That's all I got people. See you next week on Last Looks. Bye for now.