#2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

I'm sitting in the waiting room and it was like on a Sunday because it was I was like I'm only in town for it and Stan was like I'll come into the office I'm like thank you so much. I had to have something of feeling or whatever I need it. It's a kind of an emergency. So I'm sitting in the thing and I'm not getting called in but the the ladies just no, there's not even a receptionist and Stan comes out as a mask No, the first thing I hear is big fuck a fucking much of dogs What is happening in there? It's in the other room and Stan comes in as Max and he goes Sorry, he goes I'll be with you soon because I got Hunter in the chair and he goes back and I hear listen to Hunter Thompson swear for like 15 minutes I'm like this is amazing and then Stan goes okay, come on back and Hunter's kind of getting out and He goes oh you're sitting down with this guy. He's a fucking assassin And then he goes and he's got this jug of clear of clear fluid and he's like you're gonna need a sip of this and I'm like oh my god This is fucking hunter S Thompson's moonshot This is fucking amazing I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds and I'm getting a sip and like and it was like 10 in the morning on a Sunday Yeah, he's happy way through the jug Bullying like yeah, it was this in Beverly Hills. Yeah Yeah Brentwood yeah, Brentwood Oh, my god, that's amazing. It really was a me it was it was and so I had probably a total of seven minutes You know with him and it was like I could not have been a better seven minutes. That's incredible I went to the Woody Creek tavern just to go there because I know he used to go there Yeah, and you could like feel him in the building, you know, there's all the pictures in the walls It's a cool little place. I mean those books fucking hell angels and you know fear and loathing is some of the best writing I just fucking like you really had his own white rom diaries spectacular You know was like really descriptive and punchy and fucking interesting and fucked up And he also just lived that life. It was like fear and loathing changed my life like reading that book was like What the fuck like what is this guy to do? His grown men out there Balding grown men with spectacles run aground with them. There's lizards He's got a day trip bag filled with acid like what the fuck are you doing man? That was and it's great shit. It's like you're fucking feel like you're on the adventure with him, you know No, it's it's interesting to watch the evolution of his writing too, you know like I read hell's angels And it's like very different, you know, but it's early. He's kind of restrained And he was quite like for that. I think it was edgy sort of for the time. Yeah, like oh, you're gonna get beaten Shane Whipton stomped by the angels and that was really edgy and by the time they got to what a spirit loathing 72 or something like that He was just yeah, it was gone. He found his voice He was supposed to be covering a race for like sports illustrator That's a fear loathing about our biggest game crowd. I fucking lost my mind Great, it's great. We'll take it. Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys. I met you before but very nice Pleasure man. Thank you very much. I love the fucking movie. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's really good It's so original and it's so it's so different and it's you know, it's like I love those kind of movies But it's not like any one that I've ever seen before really solid It was awesome so much better than you hating it We've had a lot of those the junk the press junkets where they come in and the first thing that you know The movie sucks if they don't ask you anything about the movie. They come in they go so how you been Yeah, you know, like oh shit. This is gonna be bad Is it weird like the the transformation of the film industry seems to like a lot of it is moving towards these big streaming movies now Absolutely, I mean look that's because where most people have gone to watch them. Yeah, like Used to be the only place you go see movies in the 40s like every American were the movie every week basically But it was because it was that or watch the cows walk by you know, that was the only and then TV comes around It's a little and you see these little cereals But you know what happened was now. That's why that's totally changed the whole thing because You have 300 million people through you know 30 whatever is watching you know Netflix and it's a lot harder to get people to go into the movies This is also YouTube is also tiktok. There's also my kids like it's hard to get them excited about a movie Yeah, that's what we had. I mean, yeah, that was our I mean our Teen years were just every weekend. We're at the movies. Yeah There's just no question about it You were gonna go and usually not get into one because there were too many people and then you just see what else is playing and go to that Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away because so many people were watching streaming already And then covid came around and everyone was locked down and no one was going to the movie theater and then it just said I had this like drama that was coming out like right when covid hit I like to be performance movies about how call it guy who's kid who kid guys kid dies and comes out of college dark movie But I I loved it and I could tell like we're fucked no one's gonna go to see it to theater see this movie And it wasn't even that streaming streaming really blew up you know course during covid So you know look they rush that under streaming people actually saw it I was like all things being ego. I'd like people to see it You know, and it's not like my dad had an 11 inch black and white TV And that's what was TV viewing now. It's like $200. You got a fucking 65 inch flat screen like and good sound So of course people are willing to and then streamers also started making great shows You have adolescents I think that's the best things ever done. I haven't seen it What is it? Oh my god, it's a it's I don't want to spoil too much of it. It's only four episodes They're all one shot each episode is one entire shot. Whoa, so the cast they took a I think I talked to the director about the cast took I think a week to rehearse each and then like week to shoot it and so so they they do it twice a day Is the full hour they would choreograph the entire stuff. Yeah, it's really and then the acting is great But that's the I mean just to dismiss that even you could even call it a gimmick. It's not in this case, but The performances and the writing and what it's about it's it's as good as anything you'll see it's it's phenomenal What is it on Netflix? Yeah You know you have like it's not it's not even an anomaly us baby Rangers. Those fucking successioners game Those are those arcs. Yeah, you know It's just like okay, well, they're doing great shit out there. It's not like this sort of implied thing before was like yeah, well TV's not as good right is interesting. It's a serialist when we started It was there was a different I was like George Clooney for instance like there was a big thing You know he very famously, you know became this superstar on ER That show 40 million people a week were watching that show was the biggest thing right Because there were only a few channels to tune into and that show was the biggest one and and George never renegotiated his contract He wanted to work in movies and it was like you can't go from TV to movie. It's a very hard you're a TV People can do it. Yeah, and he really Strategically and kind of patiently like he joked that you on the last episode he was on Anthony Edwards You know his co-star was making a million bucks for the episode and he was making you know 20 grand or whatever his deal was like he could have renegotiated But he would have had to give more years how bad he wanted to get off TV right yeah, that's how bad He wanted to get off of the biggest TV show in the world Because the there was such a big kind of level change between features and TV Well, it was a giant difference in quality. It was also this the breaking it up for commercials Right, it was just a different experience. You know, there's all this rules. So like you can't say this can't do that I can't swear not all Can't a violence and do all the things people want to see in movies, you know, and then And also it wasn't it wasn't as interesting and then now that's a tether to these schedules and all the stuff Or as you get this shit like you don't have a schedule and and you can take a bunch of risks So and that's our happening and then it was kind of like well, this is just as good if not better than what's in the movies Well, then movies started to move towards more IP and because it was hard to get people to come to the movies Everyone got scared and thought well, you have to have to be a sequel or superhero movie and so interesting little movie Kind of in the 90s when we kind of came onto the scene, you know, there were a lot of really good independent movies that were being made There was there was you know, it was a really great time to be making Movie people were they were making daring movies and and and then everyone just got Way more conservative because it's huge like the business is so different Theatrically and streaming because to put out a movie theatrically you have to put so much more money behind it To publish like you're trying to get everybody Spending about what the budget was to make it to advertise because you got 50% of the the atrically split it with the the movie house right through the exhibit 25 million dollar movie to break even got to make a hundred million dollars and so and you got to get everybody to not only know about the movie But to show up like that Friday night like that specific time, you know for that specific movie and so did and to cut through all the noise that People are contending with and you know It just becomes about risk and nobody wants to take the risk so they don't want to make something new because it's such an investment We're gonna lose our fucking money and the streamers have stepped into that and like no, you know You know, you know, you're not supposed to have a star you could try something more interesting or didn't have to be super here movie whatever it was And also I think it's like you know frankly like people my age like It's first of all it's expensive right you take your whole family. It's a hundred dollars You're on a streaming service $20 a month. You can watch all you want So you can't be cavalier about like you're just gonna price that over the fuck you want and expect everyone to like Be indifferent to that and then you know also You know the idea of like for me, you know, there's a lot of stuff I make that decision like do I want to see the Odyssey on on a big screen fucking deaf I went to a theater to just watch the trailer for that movie and you know Did I one battle after another one to go see in the theater but there's movies people that I really like and respect where Yeah, and I got a good system and shit, but I'm like look I'll watch and I might get tired I don't pause it and take a piss or the kids, you know, whatever it is That's conducive to my lifestyle, you know, and so and most people on stuff. I think I should be alright But there is an experience of seeing it with a bunch of other people I mean awesome movie with a bunch of other people. It's like a shared experience 100% right? I always like an attention way more tent like like when I went to see one battle on iMacs like, you know That feeling there's nothing like that feeling. I took you know two of my kids and two of my nephews and My wife and we all went and we was just it was like and you're in with You know a bunch of strangers but people in your community and you're having this experience together I always say it's more like going to go into church like you show up at an appointed time You know, I mean it doesn't wait for you. It's starting you know and versus the the experience of watching at home I think you know You're watching in a room the lights are on other shits going on the kids are running around the dogs are running around Whatever it is you know, I mean, it's just a very different level of attention that you're willing to or that you're able to give to it And that has a big effect and it also ends up having an effect or a starting to have an effect on How you make movies like for instance Netflix You know Standard way to make an action movie that we learned was you know You usually have like three set pieces one in the first act one in the second one in the third and you know You kind they kind of ramp up and the big one with all the explosions and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act That's your kind of finale And now they're you know, they're like can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get some but you know We want people to stay yeah tuned in and and can And you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you Reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while they're So then it's gonna really start to infringe on How we're telling this but they look at our lessons. It didn't do any of it. There's fucking great You know, I mean so I think it's as dark or two. It's tragic and intense. It's like guy who finds out these kids accused of murder and it's like You know and and there's long shots in the back of their head they get in the car nobody says anything. I think there are those Look there, but these I wish that would I feel more like the exception. It's so Masterfully made that it feels a little more like the except I hope it's not my feeling It's just that you demonstrate that you don't need to do any of that shit to get people you know They mean like and I think you know, yes You know, like look at the town at the actions in the first five minutes because I you know, I mean like it's a it's a common trick That you would go like let me grab them and get them invested in the way it's like the movies that start with the hero hanging from the cliff and Now we're gonna flash back to the beginning and tell you how they got there It's you know, I always feel like a you know complaining about it makes me feel like when these guys was like Why was a boy like you want to freeze the culture at the time when you I don't know felt more like you know We don't use to have these phones And every look at it. I get it. Yes, it's true Also, it's like supplying the men people want to look at their own they can look at TikTok They want you know, they're gonna do that think what you can do is Make shit the best you can make it really good and You know people who can still go to the movies not like we have this idea that's like an existential threat Everything that comes along is an destroy everything instead of like What history suggests is that there's like marginal encroachments things shift yep as Calvin came along There was less theater going less still gonna happen and people are still gonna go to the movies because of what you said Like it feels like a cool thing to do. I'm gonna go see the Odyssey. I guarantee you in a theater You know no matter what you were of them Make it argue best because I have more choice or whatever it is it's hard to fight supply in demand That's the trick right if people want to watch a bunch of stuff at home because they invested in TVs and cost us money They will so okay but the upside of that is Like I can try to do something. Hopefully that's like that actually doesn't need to you know Have the most urgency to get you to come to the theater with your family That's a little more experimental or risk taking or whatever in that way Well, you got to adapt. I mean there's no way you're gonna change people's viewing habits now I mean what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones Is gotta be pretty high which is insane? Yeah Even watching on a laptop for me is kind of like kind of sucks. Yeah, it sucks Yeah, that's a joke that I like to make with every director I work with like when they're really puzzling over a shot or really grinding out something I go you know, it's not gonna look as good on the phone They just everyone gets angry Maybe have their fucking sales you know, no, that's gonna look great this fucking big But keep fucking around a lighting that wall It is weird though the the concern for the algorithm like making sure the people watch like look We've got data that shows within the first five minutes when this happens. They tune out So it's like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe. Yeah, he's got kill Tony and now it's on Netflix And so they're giving him notes now and they can give him like yeah But they're not telling him what to do with this thing like this is when people are tuning out and so let's you know Just so you have that data now decide how you want to edit things. That's like oh Yeah, and we slow it is because because the It's like the The bar for for Walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel right right and oftentimes You know Directors will want to make a movie that is challenging and upsetting and I remember Terry Kinney my friend great actor and he he told me about the experience of seeing taxi driver in New York For the first time right and 76 or whenever came out and he said What I remember he's not only the movie but I remember standing at the back because I had got up I got up out of my seat and I went but I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was so invested But I was so because I was standing at the back by the door watching the movie and he goes and there were two other people standing next to me Who were doing the same thing just because they were disturbed because the movie was disturbing them so much Which is not a bad thing right so had that been on on Netflix or Amazon You know if somebody's oh I'm disturbed and they turned and they changed the channel yeah Like that doesn't mean you shouldn't make taxi driver right that's true like the investment of going to a place is much greater Yeah, one of the value that is that you could you look at movies from the 70s. It's the first act is 25 30 minutes Right, you know the verdict for this is a great movie takes a long time to get a good hunter Yeah, I mean it's and and you're right like what you're saying the threshold for walk out is real like any scene like I want to watch naked in the loan make whatever you know you flip the fucking so you're You are battling that and you know, I watched the mons the other night Steve McQueen and there's no one talks for like five minutes. There's no talking It's just a bunch of stuff getting done. Yeah, it's a bunch of people doing things and it's like wow You could make a difference you could let air out back then yeah, it was they had a different respect for what it was like You were telling a story and you're gonna let it air out Well, they also knew where their audience was yeah in a theater that they as part of it was they wanted to come there I mean this Chris story I like is the first time they They debuted a movie guys with the with a projector in a room full of people It was a it was a movie of a train pulling into the station So they put the reel up and they did demonstrate and they showed the people and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector You know, it's like the technologies upstage, but like they you come for an event come for a thing. We're all gonna be here. That's part of yeah It's um, I don't know there's competing arguments that you can think well What do you get to do and some people just go ahead and fuck it like you Jim cameras avatar I'm gonna make my three-hour movie and people are gonna come and great You know what I mean people say oh well you can't have a three-hour movie He's like well, I'm Jim Cameron and I actually get the number one and two and you know movies I think I got this he goes ahead and does it you know this history is full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom I'm like yeah, but we're gonna do something different and it as it turns out Like that's actually what people want to is not for you just repeat the other shit that's been done before Before this episode is brought to you by visible. Have you heard of visible? It's the one line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month taxes and fees included all on Verizon's 5G network It's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection Got a resolution to save kick 2026 off right now for a limited time New members can get the visible plan for just 19 dollars a month for the first 26 months ring in the new year with code switch 26 share the savings with a deal that's too good to keep quiet switch now at visible.com Terms apply limited time offer subject to change see visible.com for plan features and network management details One of the things I read that I thought was really fucking cool You guys set it up so that if this film performs well the entire crew gets bonuses Yeah, that's awesome Yeah, hopefully it's successful Great movie man, it's a fun movie, but it's it's good But it's not like you know Fucking were saints or philanthropists like it's completely self-serving in my opinion Because in order to do the job well Everybody who's working on has to be really invested and give a shit about the result Not their paycheck only and sometimes you worry the crew that just happen to be great anyway Even though they don't really have to care about it and they do When we saw I was like that makes your movie better And then there's just the thing of like the business is changing you see these strikes and work stops All this fucking questions in order for this I think To to survive and to be you know a good middle class Like an artist, you know artisanal craftsman job We got 1200 people that you know need to have reliable jobs and Part of the negotiations is always like yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all gonna get fucked like we have no participation Like used to working on movies and tap into actors too where you go We all invested it was really hard and we fucking put in the extra effort somebody else walked away with all the success And you know my theories was with Matt was we like how about where let's say okay It's just fairness right if this thing actually blows up and does really well You should benefit from that people have been you know kind of given sort of promises of of participation back in the haven't Come true. So this is like the crew everyone got their rates everyone got their hourly knowing cut anything This is just an exercise and actually proving that it's not bullshit that if they're success You'll get some extra little success a little extra a little more a little more I also like you said because it's fair You know and and and in success the people who made the movie should You know should participate in that and and also with this one which was important to us There's you know, they they delineate above the line and below the line right like above the line being like It's really there in the cast and And below the line being kind of the more blue collar side of our industry and and like painters Gransman camera. They were yeah, everybody else with drivers on and so we just want it we we And believe like when we started this company we were like look you know We know who makes our movie better right? It's not it's it's like they've this has kind of been mispriced the whole time Like the economics have been wrong like when there's a when there's a big success everybody who had a hand on it Because you see a great director that people rely on or an actor that's considered bankable They're all going okay. I need all my people with yeah every great director I've worked with and I've worked with a lot of them they have their regular crew members Right that I ride or die with these people right because I mean in you said it to me when we were starting the company We're like you know those department heads, you know who are each handling like you know Cinematography, you know your camera department, you know your grip department your electric like all these this those people are Ultimately the people who make the movie good like they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is and imagine once you get a good flow With a great crew exactly you got the band. Yeah, like there's no need to bring a new band member So let's do this again. Yeah, and because they and then like you have the situation where they all arc filmmakers to everybody knows What we're trying to do so like then what makes it you know, you're trying to get something special something interesting Something fucking magical in some moment You have to like if people are tight or they're been on a shape or you know It fucks up the environment people aren't relaxed actors can't do their best work And that does make a difference between something that's Good average great whatever and I think that if you say like You know it makes cognitive sense to people but if you look around like That was an example call an Anderson camera operator right not the cinematographer But I would tell you's that I think it's the greatest camera operator There's no Hollywood and if you want evidence that he shot Marty supreme. He was a camera operator on one battle after another You know he's you look at his resume and you're like, oh, that's interesting. These are all fucking great movies now Is he personally responsible for all but no because it's a collaborative medium? There is no like you can be a painter and paint by yourself. You can be a novelist and do that Saying right music you can't do this job alone like there are a lot of people that go into it You know even my real like Matt was the lead in the last movie I did air that I directed Having somebody so fucking good in your movie who also Shows up does his job is friendly isn't fucking around or playing games or being weird like that sets this tone Everybody else kind of goes okay, but what's Damon like oh? I see this is we're taking a seriously, but nobody's gonna be a dick We're all gonna do our job. We're not gonna take ourselves too seriously, but we're gonna take the job really seriously And immediately everybody kind of snaps into that that trickled on effect goes across the whole thing And I think the the best thing that I know how to do is a director is just create an environment where people feel like They show up people like me they're rooting for me I can fucking embarrass myself and be bad and it's not gonna be in the movie and it was gonna make me feel subconscious and I'm listening to my idea. Yeah, and if I have something to offer they're gonna go. Oh, that's a good idea You know what I mean? And that that's kind of the trick in my view And then you're depending on the gifts of all these people every single one of them, you know guys was you know some woman's assistant A prop master is coming up with like the stuff that you know fill night found you know his waffle from the shoe They found it on eBay like that's an extra mile, you know what I mean? If you made people feel like it matters and you give a shit and that they're contributing and oh cool Let's do a close-up of that. That's a really fucking cool They'll die for you. They'll go all the way and it changes the whole and if you bonus them You know, it's not just all you know, it's just raw raw there's an action like codified bonus structure to say like We this is the way I recognize that shit. Yeah, it's like in your paycheck, too. It's not very real And you guys developed this is this so there's something that you would really kudos to you guys for addressing us first fall And recognizing it and having that attitude because it's so important and it's so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves and their own communist Joe We're from Cambridge No, but uh but but each each deal has had this kind of Each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with the you know different studios and platforms and stuff like that and just involved us basically retroactively going hey We came in under we did a great job as extra money here you go This is the first time that we were able to to actually create like a schedule where it's like because and by the way We want to be able to do that without Netflix going okay cool. You think you can make this work Is this we'll give you a shot otherwise we want to be able to do it So we had to say look we're not asking you take a cut But you know if if we can and we can tell you if the movie is watched as many hours in the first 90 days as like this movie a That you all know what it is then that's you know 20% of yourself. Let's say right? I mean you should take a hit so it's like yeah, you make more money your bonuses more It's all just peg to wear your app just because that was the most fair idea we come up with so they gave us like five different levels Right like the first couple we hopefully we can hit and maybe the third maybe we get and then it got to like the fifth kind of like single double triple Fucking grand the fifth one was was 110% of all Netflix viewers or something like that So it's everybody who has a Netflix account watches it and then like 10% of them watch it again And we were like we were laughing and then k pop demon hunters came along and actually did that That's the first movie that's ever Jesus. Yeah, well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over and over I haven't seen it but I mean somebody's watching it over and over. Oh, yeah, dude people love it I mean it's you know The value of it is the biggest before this one of the big things and everybody's fighting over in the strike is like Well share your shit. They used to be residuals right and residuals and it was only for sag and a few other things But it was like and you knew if you had a line in the movie and then we did a certain number like at the box office We're gonna get another 2000 bucks and that was a big deal We'll get that check in the mail and like okay, they're right for another month. I can do that shit But then it then there was this like sort of ill-deaf what constitutes success Because streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie right right It's hard to tell well. Why did you sign up for this service right? So for a while everyone's looking at the first thing that you Look that when you subscribe to somebody okay, you're gonna go buy Hulu. What did you watch first the bear? Well the bear must be Creating value for us, but it's you can't assign a strict numerical value to it because it's On like a box office where you can go well, you know Open hammers a billion dollars or whatever and you know, that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet Because streamers are doing a subscription model, you know That's you know, whether it's like a gym membership We're in the fucking you know first the year you're like I'm gonna work out again I'm gonna buy that in your membership and you go twice or you go to gym every single day You're paying the same amount The also the weird thing is with streaming when you're opening up Netflix It's not like you go to the movie theater and there's seven movies playing You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list It's insane how much content you could waste the rest of your life Sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have you know millions of hours more to listen to or watch You're right like when we'd start researching that and built our own Data to pull people on examine all this stuff It's actually all the library stuff that people are watching all the time if you say like the new stuff is theoretically what what keeps people with the subscription or whatever but in terms of like volume of time I think and doesn't come from them But it looks a lot like you know, we're gonna watch like Orges of New Black and the episode of suits and the old sign for the end friends and what you know Cupcake wars or you know that that's was because Americans watch six hours of TV day Right, that's crazy And then the other six hours they're on their phone That's what you've done. How does anything get done When you started to make this film like what what is the process like how did you guys agree on it like what did you guys have it written first Was Joe gone? Yeah, Joe so before you knew you were going to Netflix with it. Yeah Yeah, yeah, he came to us with the script and we've known Joe for a really he did a movie his first movie was called NARC I don't know if you ever saw yeah, so we met him way back this 25 years ago or something like that And so we met him met him back then and Bend it you did a movie of his smoke nace. Oh for I think and so we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with them over the years And and he just sent this to us and said and we read it and we thought it was great and and and and bought it for the company And then we started talking to Joe about you know how he saw you know how we wanted to do it and and he suggested that we actually do the movie Um, and we and we're like yeah, why don't we do it it seems No, basically because we like and we like to see we're not trying to just do our movies. We want to be You know doing movies with all these people that we like respect and and and then you know the way we sort of set it up is such that To try to get like Historically the way it's worked is like the you know studio will own a An IV or a script or whatever and then you cut in those say okay, we want you to do it Okay, well how much well how much you get for the last one right and you go and what's the budget and then that's how they assign a value to it right But you like my belief was well Especially when these streams are coming into the market and chasing stuff is like this movie may maybe worth more It may be more or less and that like we're all just subject to that So we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it you know pro rata And essentially that that was the same process we've done I guess movies are so now and and uh We took it out and you know people wanted it and then one of the things that was really appealing about not Was that they were open to this this idea that we've been trying to Institutionalize and was like okay great. That's that's really meaningful because ideally It becomes a template the other people go hey, we want to do that thing, you know, and I mean go I guess the paper yeah, that's the thing like a lot of people say that they Would want to do it But it now now the template exists. So it's like plug and play so if you if you're not full of shit And you really do mean that then guess what just take this and And it also is gonna let you you know I hope like manage the risk in other words the argument always have is like well shit We got to invest all this money in the movie So you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable. That's too edgy or can't be r-rated because it costs this my again Right you're gonna put all your money into it you want it you don't want money to fucking disappear You want to make money okay? So if like when we wrote the first movie that we're good well hunting It was like we knew that had to be a cheap movie people talking in rooms to each other because no it's gonna put a bunch of money into And do a movie with us No one heard of so it was like okay. What can we do? That's interesting that and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie That same logic like carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something So what I'd like to have happened is to say okay now that we know there's a reliable System where we understand that like in success will actually benefit We can lower you know the price up front for you so that you can have a low Fucking barrier to entry so that you can take the risk so that we can do something really interesting That's that's an original idea. That's a you know, that's an obran moris centers or if like Marty supreme or whatever it is and And then if it's successful, we're not so sitting here like assholes where you know you guys walk off with all the money But and you can have that happen in an ongoing way so that you can make more interesting stuff A lot of the stuff that was going on with strikes was centered around AI and what AI is gonna do to the business like what Where do you feel is gonna be like the biggest problem with AI? Is it gonna be with people's like this is because there's a lot of that Where they want they want to use extras and own their digital rights forever essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film But then there's also you're gonna have films that are written by artificial intelligence You're gonna have scenes that don't involve people and it gets weird, right? It gets really weird, but this is an area like these for him Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this like in my belief is sort of like what's gonna happen with electricity Well a lot of shit's gonna happen with electricity some of us gonna be good some's gonna change stuff some's gonna be like This is gonna be you know shit that kills a bunch of people like it's it's it's opening a door that you can't Um, you know say well it talk about in the kind of a blanket way, but I think with What I see is like for example if you try to get chat gbt or a Claude or jemini to write you something It's really shitty and it's shitty because by its nature it goes to the mean to the average And it's and it's not reliable and it's I mean I just came stand to see what's right now It's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going oh, what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up where somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets and it can give you some examples of that I actually don't think it's very likely that it can it's gonna be able to write anything meaningful or in particular That it's gonna be making movies like from whole cloth like tillie nor like that's bullshit. I don't think that's gonna happen I think it's not I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exact the same way they sort of Presented it um, and really what it is is gonna be a tool just like sort of visual facts and yeah They need to have language around you need to protect your name and likeness you can do that you can water market Your those laws already exist you can't I can't sell your fucking picture for money I can't you consume me period. I might have the ability to draw you to make you a very realistic way But that's already against the law and the unions are gonna I think the guilds are gonna manage this where it's like Okay, look if this is a tool that actually helps us for example Go to the North Pole right we can shoot the steam here in our parkas and you know whatever it is and But then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole Let's save us a lot of money a lot of time. We're gonna focus on the performances and not be freezing or ass off out there and running back inside That's useful just like Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn used to be like driving their car and wind blowing a painting behind them and look goofy And you know now you know in computer generate people's a lot of computer generated stuff And some of it is gonna replace just that like instead of 500 guys in Singapore, you know making two dollars an hour to to render all the graphics for A superhero movie there's gonna be able to do that a lot easier There's already laws around and guild guidelines around like how many union extras you have to use But also we've been tiling extras like there weren't a million orcs and middle earth you know I mean there and Victor's doing all those people and stadium like that's something we've been doing It kind of feels to me like things how I'm earlier where there's a lot more fear Because we have the sense that's existential dreads go wipe everything out right But that actually runs counter in my view to what history seems to show which is a adoption is slow It's incremental I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies Where they go we're gonna change everything and two years is gonna be no more work All right, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe Evaluation for investment that can warrant the cap expand they're gonna make on these data centers with the argument that like Oh, you know as soon as we do the next model it's gonna scale up. It can be three times as good Except that actually chat GP5 about 25 time percent better than chat GP4 and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data So those nice things like plateauing the early AI The line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off I think it's because and yes, it'll get better But it's gonna be really expensive to get better And a lot of people were like fuck this we want you to achieve before because it turned out like the vast majority people who use AI are using it to like As like companion bots to chat with it night and so there's no work. There's no productivity. There's no value to it I would argue is also not a lot of social value to getting people to Like focus on an AI friend who's you know telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sick of fantic That's sort of a side issue. I think for this particular purpose like the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not It's gonna be good at Feeling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and then they get harder to do it And it's always gonna rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous the more people are gonna appreciate real things and are made by real people You know like you're you still appreciate a handmade table You know you're gonna appreciate like did you see um the beast in me Claire Daines? Yeah, no, I didn't I didn't yeah, I heard it was great that lady Whoo Whoo when she's in a scene you're just like she's it's Christ like great like you like her fucking lips are quivering like you believe everything that she's saying That you're right people want that you can't you can't fake us that I said like I did this interview With with Duane Johnson because they you know they when people are in these awards things they sometimes have other actors interview them You know and I did this interview with Duane and and and I asked him there's this scene in the smashing machine Where where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital yeah and and it really Walloped me this scene. I thought it was so great and and I asked him and I was just like can you just tell me about this scene like Did Benny could Benny safty directed it did Benny Wright? There's to write that did you work on that? scene with them to you he goes no we we actually worked on it together and I go look about how did that scene come to be and Duane goes Well my father was an alcoholic and I don't remember if he said substance abuser alcoholic, but but I didn't know the man I don't want to impune him but but he had he had a substance issue whatever it was he goes and and when he would talk to me You know, that's how he Would defend himself he was almost a bargaining thing because there's the thing when this guy comes to him He's overdosed and Duane's amazing in the scene. He's he's going like he's going like yeah Isn't it crazy and then I woke up and I mean I could hear him But I couldn't really hear him and you see him. He's kind of tap dancing And his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire and at that moment Duane literally Starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his Bithead and it's like and it's and it's I mean it's just it was I'm not doing it justice if you haven't I mean I know you see yeah, but He said yeah, so he explains that about his father and then he goes and and when my mom was diagnosed was stage three lung cancer I was with her when the oncologist came in and she was lying in the hospital bed And when he gave her the news she pulled the sheet up over her head And I looked at her and she just looked like a little like a little kid, you know, and I was like all right Like so that right is two traumatic events from this guy's life right from his life experience And the actor in him right sees this scene Goes into his Memory pulls these two things out understands that they're appropriate for this scene and he can marry them together in the scene and then he goes and performs it that way and A dude walking in off the road goes to the movies sees this understands somehow that it's Fucking real I didn't know why I that's why I wanted to ask him how did that scene come to be I genuinely didn't know and Made me tear up and you know Like that is and there's no fucking AI that can do that no it's the hall lot more than photo realistic images Yeah, that you you could you could you could have an AI understand Duane's face and move his face into different no fucking Ever do that the complications of real life experiences really that is a completely human that is an artist That's a piece of art. Yes, that comes out of a lived human experience that movie gave me so much anxiety There's moments where Emily blunt is She's so fucking good. I said I really said I I'd be like that I think I think that's the best she's ever been I love you know We live in the same building in New York. She's like very dear friend of mine and I and I I was like I really think that's the best she's ever been and then I said and then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan and And he kind of stopped and looked at me like He didn't say it but he was kind of like she's pretty fucking good in my movies Well, she's great period. She's great period. But there's something about that Well, I knew Mark on a new mark from I met Mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC So I knew the whole journey of him and I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this fucking superhero Blockbuster Hulk of a man he gets to be that but be a great actor and You know, you can't really get a person to look like that To express emotions and express and and and he was Mark her I know if you know Mark I mean it was fucking great. I completely forgot it was him and somebody would see it before told me that was gonna happen And I was like all right. We'll see And it was like from the second it started It didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of like the amount of people that want to see it But I think overall in time people appreciate it. That's what we'll go back to Because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot of people like I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads But it's not it's just a movie that happens to be around M.A. But MMA but it's in a great movie The the scenes are fucking fantastic. The acting is so good and the right and even the the fight scenes They're so realistic man. It's really like they I've saw all those fights They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get And just his crazy struggle and you know the story but behind the documentary the smashing machine. No So the smashing machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride and he was the most terrifying guy in the world He was 265 pounds of solid muscle just blowing through people didn't even look like a human being everyone was terrified of him No one knew he was a drug addict No one knew and he spiraled out as they were filming and he let them film him let them film him shooting up Let them film him like bringing this giant bag of pills with him and all his shit everywhere and just Completely falling apart while they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie right right of the greatest fighter in the world He's falling apart like live in front of the documentary. It was fucking amazing documentary I gotta see it. It's really good But the I was so happy that they put it in a film and I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle The show he's really capable of because he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in Yeah, and by and by like galactic success. Yes, right? I mean it's it's he has he had to and will continue to have to push For that right because it's what he wants yeah, and not because what because what what they are gonna continue to want him to do Is you know the thing that that that mince them money? Yeah, yeah, I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie From the conversations I've had with him. Yeah, this is this is this is changed. Yeah Well, I mean it's let's this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like Something has to change because otherwise you're gonna be boxed Yeah, and with a guy that looks like that. It's so easy to put him in that box And so you see him now he's thinner. He's lost a lot of weight the day batista went through a very similar thing Right Yeah, he wanted to be he wanted to have more range wanted to have you know more opportunities to do Exciting and different challenging things. Well, I think also you coming from where he came from right It's like you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days try coming from Wrestling to me right to like the biggest movie star in the world, right? It's very it's like it's incredible that he Did that and now he's in this place where he's got this leverage as because he's so beloved and you know That that he can kind of tailor the tailor what he wants from here on as hard to bring the audience with you Right, no, I know you like this thing, but let me let me show you something else You know, it's sort of like you're the concert the band wants to play the new songs So he's a little bit of a gilded gaze or I fucking satisfaction No, I love the song Yeah, my acoustic thing that I did Yeah, I went to see the stones and when they were here in town and there was a few songs they played that were like new songs Oh really see the audience is like okay Yeah Yeah, that's what I mean, but you know every artist I guess has to make that choice and he's made it and and it was amazing Vehicle too because he's still kept that superhuman hulkish frame yeah, and then but also showed like god There's like amazing depth there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's the thing that's I think Especially because it's a it's collaborative. It happens with other people That's what movies do that other shit doesn't do which is just create like you feel for people It's empathy. It's all made up right? This is that's not him. It's not the old. It's all and all those old bullshit But if you do it really well with like you know Somebody that seems to really be feeling something like all of a sudden I think what it does it touches like these things in ourselves You know, it has that same effect that Dwayne went through of Particularly to you about like These moments that were kind of burned into his memory Then really the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own fucking like oh yeah I'm my father died or I'm through this with my kid or I'm fucking I feel fucking alone and and and miserable and Here's this like a hopeful moment that someone has go maybe I can Maybe I can do something you know they inspire you they touch you they move you and like the thing to go for the other thing is You know, it's a it's a it's a tell a lighter story to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all and it's a either way You're in somebody else's perspective for a few. Yeah, hopefully it breeds compassion Well when it's done right there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening and you're there When and the most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawk about this is this a scene with him and Kevin Bacon when in that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world I forgot that right Tomorrow something yeah people find it Yeah, but great great fucking movie, but there's this scene where he's trying to get you He's talking to Kevin Bacon Kevin Bacon. It's got a gun to him and it's so fuck I know that's Kevin Bacon I know that's Ethan Hawk. It doesn't matter like you're fucking locked in you're locked in you're like oh shit I get that's the magic And and he was like but I'm locked in too like that's it's like a hypnosis It's like everybody is in the scene in a very Bizarre way like you you have the lines, but you're living it and so and that's either done or it's not done and when it's not done You could tell someone's kind of just performative you feel it when you're watching yes If it does that thing and it pulls you then it's happened that's the magic of film and sometimes you trick people I guess but for the most part for the most part you don't try to sound a feeling it and you just really happening Yeah, it's much more like other human beings or really recognize human beings experiencing real shit. Yes, they they really like the mirror and that's what I know what sorrow looks like yeah without having the fucking I can't break it down for you or I even you know you we all know kind of what like oh he's a little anxious right now or did I maybe offend him or you know all these little things and when some like in the rare moments when this big Feelings or smoke the things happen You feel it too, you know, and you usually like an example is this is old saying about like you know actors try to cry People try not to cry like because when you're really experiencing that shit You don't want people to see it you want to hide it you want to know I'm okay. I'm fine. You know It's like I want to pull the sheet up open But the other thing that's really interesting from from our side of doing it because he and I've talked about this a lot is And I've always said publicly like great actors are good enough for both of you Like when you're in a scene with a great actor That thing that Ethan's talking about that hypnosis or whatever you want That energy that that place where you go right they're bringing you right with it. It's like a fucking tractor beam They will suck you right in with them and like as quickly as you look into their eyes and you're like You're like just there and it's like and it's not like it's like Riding the easiest way if you've ever ridden in your life You know it can be the hardest thing in the world and it can be the easiest thing in the world When you're with a great actor it just it's just if the scenes Yeah, this is a real paradox is like all the stuff that I'm the most proud of The weird thing about it says felt very easy at that time And the shit where you're banging your head against the wall trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself and all the thing and it just And ends up fucking feeling empty and the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is my insecurity is like Should be harder than this right are we are like we work hard enough or we get you know right right and learn to kind of just trust that God feels good. Let's just keep going you know Well, there's some scenes in this movie without giving too much away where this conflict between you two guys It seems so real and that's even harder to recreate because you guys are good friends and you're making the movie together And you've got this scene where you're acting in this and with the conflict with the two you guys the movie But it's very fucking real the reason that it was real is at that I like that scene the reason it's it works. I think is because He's coming at me And he's he really needs to know something and I'm completely blanking him Like I'm just he's going you gotta tell me what's going on man He's like it's also like what what is going what is the thing and I'm and I'm just like literally kind of Blanking him in this bizarre way which which like was really frustrating him in real life because he He was that feeling of like it's fucking tell me dude. It's you and me like Right finally goes is screams out. I don't trust you right now. That's a fucking problem right which is like what you would say to an old friend Like what are you doing man like what What what are you like like the betrayal tell me the fucking the betrayal is that tell me the truth I lied to me or tell me to put me in like step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden just act like Give me this weird look of just like I don't know You know like It's where we're doing the scene It was really fucking Like getting the one line that wasn't written that I saw that I didn't remember doing was I wouldn't never fuck you like I know I would have never fucked you like this. Yeah, which I didn't remember saying the truth I like that that keep that thing I wouldn't a fuck to and I was I thought was like what is he I thought what did I just you know and I saw watch the playback it was in those rare moments again. It was like where It was that thing of you doing all the work by by not doing anything which I didn't expect That to be the choice that you made and it just was confusing and felt like just you know leaving you out in the fucking cold I didn't the only thing I could rely on is like you know, I would I wouldn't do this to you So you had in those moments where you're you're ad living a line where a line come is it just just that feels like that's what you say Yeah, it's just kind of like you couldn't stop from saying it right, you know But you have to be working with somebody that makes that okay You know what I mean because the part of your brain that will like govern you or tell you something's not okay Whatever we'll step in if it's sort of like You know listen, I expect you to fucking do this box And there's there's a directors and writers who really do really care about every word precisely and that you know And that's that's how they do it and that's fine. That could be great too for me Like it I find it's it becomes more interesting and sometimes better stuff happens if you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines I don't see any of the lines in the scene Then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right but it but like that it's that fake Thing that never happens in life, which is I'm never sitting here talking to you and think what's my next line Right And how should I say that and it's not about the lines ever it's not about the words about what's happened? What's the scene about what's happening in the scene? It's one of the reasons why curb the curb your enthusiasm is so great Because Larry David just gives you a place to get to yeah Like you use them in a kind of loose agenda Yeah, it's gonna happen and then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out Yeah, and a lot of times that shows about the awkward shit in between people are missing each other Yeah, I'm not sure of them. I was a little embarrassed in the media show It really is and and and people talk like we're talking like you occasionally talk over each other There's a stumble. There's no one like what what do you what do the fuck you talk? There's weirdness to because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen Right, and that is that is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors I think is is it's really all about listening and like I did a bunch of movies with Paul greengrass And that's how he works where he where you just know the agenda going in you know some basic things that you you know What your guy needs going in like I was playing a chief Warren officer and I had to go through a door And there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him And I this is what I needed to know from him I needed to secure the house with my guys and I needed to get to this guy We needed to make sure everybody here was secure so and it just and they and he put me with a bunch of real Combat veterans and we fucking went in and you know there the other thing that does your job for you It's just having around the real people putting the cops from Miami, you know all these parts and it It's just like biasmosis you feel more legitimate The thing feels more authentic to the audience you don't know why because you don't know what the how the what the fucking culture is of the Tactical narcotics team in Miami But when you see the real guys you kind of oh you're like yeah, that seems right in my area is a perfect place to have it Yeah, well, it's also specific to this because it's based on this real tactical narcotics team in in Miami and And and the guy who ran that this guy Chris Cassiano is Joe's friend and he's the guy that my character is based on So Chris was Chris we went you know we wrote along with Chris down there We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them and then they came up and they were you know All in the movie and Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time So any question like little details all right. How do I go through this door? What do I do? What do you do here? What's the what's the protocol here? What you know all of that stuff was kind of Overseen by him so that it so that it was how they really do it that whole fucking town is so it did you ever see cocaine cowboys? Yes The entire fucking graduating class the police academy one year either wound up murdered or in jail That's what happens all of a sudden you push so much fucking money into something And it's like and before they even kind of figured out like you know, and it wasn't there wasn't even the last stigma I was like, yeah cocaine whatever is kind of rich guys fun drug But you know, it's just some statistic about like you know the amount of money in the banks in Miami Was like the same as the rest of the country more banks poor capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country Because they were just laundering money, right, and they got away with it They've got away and you ever flown over bimini, you know the So so if you fly over ever fly over bimini there all these like sesna's Underwater all these planes like around the island because what they used to do bimini is like the closest That's 50 miles off the coast of Florida They would they would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water They would land on purpose on purpose because there's no runway on bimini. There's no It's like fuck it. We're gonna top the plane. They would have 10 cigarette boats like a flotilla of boats waiting They would crash the plane. They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking Right and then they put it they put it the coast guard like figures that they're always coming for them That's why they have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into one of the boats And they got a one out of 10 chance of making it They just scatter and the coast guard goes after one of them in hopes they get the right one and not just like no It's just taking a cruise tonight. What's the problem? But the planes are still all Submerds like you could the water so clear you can how many fucking oh wow That's crazy how many fucking planes are out there I flew over at five 20 years ago, but I mean there's Yeah, I don't know how long I mean, but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little sessions probably wasn't I mean with the amount of drugs they were moving on Yeah, there you go fucking wild They're kind of landing where it's sort of shallow Yeah, they landed like we could swim five to ten feet of water and they what do they they land at whatever 55 knots So you just try it looks nice too like that sure you're about Wow, I won't be comfortable, but I mean, Sully landed at 737. Yeah, right. It wasn't right. Yeah Fucking wild what a crazy Part of our culture that that happened yeah, the the the whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular like Miami vise all that shit Yeah, it's like it shaped the entire country for sure. Oh, yeah I just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like I think he was from Boston and he was like the pilot and he had figured out the route And he was like man Like we could have gotten away with this forever There's somebody talked and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught I had it all he was clearly really smart The guys did too, you know, there's a whole lot of people out there that were like yeah, we had a nice run It's why I got eight houses. You know, it's like oh, yeah, that's one of the Real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country There's a lot of people they got very wealthy including banks, which is just really crazy Banks with a jewelry company. Oh, yeah, there was like more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than ever I was in the country and he was like doesn't pay to ask questions. So yep, I guess a lot of people like our cars here You don't say all cash sure You know, we make you deal sure how many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags Just buried somewhere that nobody knows about probably worth just checking When you buy a house in Miami just dig the yard up well, at least find out who owned it before you always a pilot Yeah, get a truck Get a tractor stop dig up the backyard. I mean one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars Just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it right they were making so much money They just had a burry at places. That's fucking crazy Well, it's why it's the perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because you know that The situation that the cops without giving away too much of the plot But the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation I mean so many DEA agents turn dirty so many cops turn dirty. It's because it just can get so much Temptation. Yes, like you take this these people, you know, you got like six seven people Fucking work for a living at the same bullshit they have to deal with And there's 20 million dollars, you know, and it's I mean it makes for a great like drama too Even like the you know with the performances because all of a sudden somebody's thinking like okay How they react, you know, we're putting the first person to say you don't have to turn this all in you know And and like getting to play that shit and for me also I like you know without being you know sanctimonious or preachy because I really think movies We're talking about like what they do well. What they do very poorly is deliver messages or lectures As soon as you get into that thing. Yeah, he's like I you know I'm gonna go to church for that or fucking school for I don't need that shit here But I like that what was underneath it is like This is a fucking hard job and and that there's a lot of like there's a lot of value like These characters the ones that are trying to do their job are trying to get through the day And just at the end of they have done their job like they said they were gonna do you know It here to the fucking ethics that they're supposed to and the end of the day be able to sleep And I believe there's some value in not fucking stealing the money or flipping somebody over You know, I mean in doing all that shit and that's the win the win doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or fucking You know saves the world from you know the evil scientist laser beam or whatever. It's like The end of the day if you can fucking live with yourself and say look You know, I quit myself a corner with the fucking expectations were what am I true to my word And I think there's so like that's a I don't know that that affected me I found that kind of moving and and you can't do it if you create like if it is to credit to Joe Like just two-dimensional characters. Oh, I'm the hero. I'm the villain or this person would never do that They don't have to be real people like it would be subject to like Temptation might just represents whatever that thing is you think you want or that's gonna make your life better You know, it's something different to everybody, but you know And especially when you're like you're facing like really you know the cost and eat thing or the you know the sick relative or or whatever it is That's it's a real thing nobody's immune to to to that kind of temptation You know as I think it's cavalier to be like oh while you're dirty or you know like put people on a very tough Situation a lot of times particularly if they're feeling like undervalued I like the woman the scene where Catalina's like I get fucking pissed like it yelled at I get shit on you know They mean like I'm out here grinding every fucking day. You know, it's uh It's a lot to it's so a lot to ask I think it's it's worth kind of Making that you know heroic it without sort of Indicating too much. No, it's really well written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments It's it's and that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one mover. Yeah moment in a movie We were like what come on. How do you do that? Just you guys don't have any of those is none of that. I loved it. I loved it I loved that that aspect of it too word it felt like all of it was like I believed it I believed it and that's really a credit to Joe and his like taste and that's why we really felt like just kind New how to make nark you kind of obviously understood this world is being understood that it has to Above all it has to feel real and that's why he was open to like okay whatever happens you throw in a line Maybe it's good can't get you feeling hurt if it's not you know, but like you got to be able to take that shot and we're all down You know, try and spend time with people I mean I can't feel for this cops a bunch of actors to send on you and like what kind of sweatshirt is that? It was like that Michael J Fox James was a movie remember that movie wait I forget what it was called but he's Michael J Fox is an actor falling around James Woods He's studying him for a character and James Woods is a real like detective and he's just like Get this guy away from me. I kept thinking of that. We're gonna hair gel you. Yeah, well yeah exactly like all these questions You know, but they were very tolerant of us which was which was nice and and uh and really really helpful You know because it's all it's always details. It's always details. It's like how fast did he do do you do you Kind of mine for those details because I've always been convinced that like in audience It's like you were saying they don't analyze why they don't believe something They feel it. They just don't believe it Yeah, and it's usually because Those details are you you don't get those and that's the only thing like I'm not great at Imagining something let's invent this Everything that I've done like that I that I like has been a result of some of my founder research like for the town I went down and just went through the you know all the prisons You know out there mass Jewish federal prisons they prisons and and sat down and talk to guys who robbed trucks and banks And you know kind of sometimes you know you want to know and then sat down with the FBI guys And was like what are they like and the great shit, you know for me is that you know and I'm in like I'm in like wet wall pole or I'm in the prison of dead him or whatever and I'm to some guy I said like After talking for two hours, you know I was like is anything just fucking weird ever happened or fucked out anything you remember Like I was like yeah one time, uh, you know, we were coming out of this thing we robbed this truck and you know We we had the magic of the switch car. We drove around the corner and whatever we pull up We get out fucking guns the mass old things and we look over And it's just cops sitting there doing construction duty And I was like right then tell me a story. I was like oh shit. I was like what happened You know, so you looked at us we looked at him He looked the other way Whoa, and I said really cuz yeah, he didn't want to end up on the wall to VFW Who is this guy's with full automatic weapons masks on Switching cars And it's in them. It's a great moment in the town like in the movie Because you know, Renner they all jump out of the thing today and then and he oh yeah, here it is It's great and it's this awkward They just stop guys and this dude He sees them They see him He's like a fuck we have to kill this guy Nope, he turns away Wow It's such a great, but that's straight from research Which I always love that story Um, and then he and then the line is here that he put it here and one on the wall that we have W. Yeah It was a great you know, it's a great line. It was such a simple explanation for what why you think he what do you think he did? You know why like and that's exactly what it would have been like that guy Next day's picture would have been up in the wall to VFW Yeah, you know any know it and everybody knew it. He said he didn't want to do it like that. You know that was And like that kind of stuff is uh, I don't know. It's very human human calculations and interact him It's in a very extreme version of it, but it also doesn't have sometimes it's not dramatic at all You know, it's like that was an easy decision and the guy never says anything nice anything, you know and Kind of can't really blame him, you know, it's yeah The town was a great fucking movie too, and I I knew a lot of people like that You know from boxing gems and stuff I knew a guy who's a hitman for whitey bulcher I knew a guy who's a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that for murder for killing people Yeah, what town do you grow up in? I lived in Newton I grew up in I lived in Jamaica playing for a little while I lived in Newton But I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting Was mostly training and so it was around a lot of these like very shady characters Who were in the fighting world and a lot of them had backgrounds and crime One of the guys that I went to that I trained with he went to jail for a little while and then he got Arrested because the guy got killed and they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept in jade Jacketing it with cocaine to keep him a keep him awake while they were doing it And then they cut his hands off and cut his head off and this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that Jesus yeah, he didn't wind up going to jail for that. He's dead now, but he Was it somehow or another at least peripherally involved? Yeah, yeah, well, I didn't do any fighting But I went around and found a lot of the one of the things about being you know being an actor and just people will talk to you You know, which is a fucking amazing gift even if somebody's like oh, yeah, I killed guys You know, they'll just come out and like it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply like these guys in prison What the fuck are they gonna talk you know, I mean, but they're like interesting in it for whatever and you know So so you avail yourself of that and and then I had like, you know, we had people Around that movie who everybody knew yeah, he did that job. He never got arrested And so like yeah people you know me you know and and uh and talk to him and it's interesting because the Such a good lesson for for doing this job, which is that they're never how you Think they're supposed to be like the murderer person right, right? You know, there's always something a little I remember one guy was supposed to be like this really violent kind of loose cannon fucking Guy who supposedly had done all this shit Stabbed and killed two people fan you hall and shot these guys in a in a robbery Any like shows up with his polo shirt kind of tucked in you know, how's it going? You know, just like I never would have fucking put this guy on Fucking killing four people, you know, I mean they got have a good time. We so I love that one movie and you just think a fuck man like This is why and it's a really good lesson for like you know We tend to re-descript it okay this guy's the tough guy and he's gonna be the it's like you work this like I have the fucking like the opportunity Train with these Delta guys like you know, it's the most elite special forces combat fucking Operators in the world. I mean it's both the seals will take exception to that But what just numerically right? It's been less than 900 guys ever in history Delta You meet him and it's they're not the biggest guys. They're not the toughest guys They're not trying to fucking be hard and you know, they're the most relaxed at ease And it you know, I found myself just being like finally I was like what can I just ask you? What do you think makes somebody like qualify for the Delta Force like what's a good Delta operator? He's like, ah, you know Problem solving Problem solving they guys. Yeah, it's probably like your job. I was like no let me just notice It's really not like my job. I appreciate it Very big fucking difference. He's like, I you saw probably again. No, try to kill me But that that was the closest inside I got to which was I've always kind of thought this about like a guy's like like Brady or something There's guys that just don't get tight and that they are they are kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like Well, that helicopter's crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're out numbered fucking six to well How do you think we should get home like just having your wits about you to make that calculation while by the way You're in a fucking gunfight and things you know I'm sure that does make because those are the people where I'd be in a fucking panic and not have no idea what to do And you get like attracted to the person who who's like seems to have it like hey, I'm it's good. We're gonna be okay Everybody get your shit. We're going over here You'll just follow that guy, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, but it's a good it's not always the most Maybe it's just because they're so confident. They're not like I don't like I need to prove that I can kick anybody's I don't even get in fights like have a weapon It's just uh It surprises me what it how those kinds of like extraordinary experiences and people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in How they show up, but we have caricatures Yeah, I had of what like these tough people are like well you see that about MMA fighters Like there's a lot of MMA fighters you meet them. They're like the sweetest nicest friendly people in the world I remember going to one of the events at in LA. I think it was a staples and and I was backstage and and was talking to Wanted like the lawyers for the UFC about we were talking about Conor McGregor and he was telling me a great story about him and this guy walks up and He's in a like Chino's like khaki pants and like a blue button up like you know kind of business shirt with spectacles and he's very small And I kind of don't really regard him and I'm standing here in this story And then Patrick goes Matt do you know Henry and I turn in its Henry, so Hudo and I'm like this fucking guy Could wreck me right? Absolutely Fucking destroy me and he and he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on yeah, right? He's not he's not carrying himself like he's he just is the thing you know and find out a little bit too late Yeah, don't find that one out there. Yeah Yeah, a lot of guys do Unfortunately, yeah, that's it's well, they don't have to prove themselves right they do it all the time The same was Delta Force guys like this idea that this like outwardly brash tough guy usually that kind of machismo and But that's bullshit. That's you're using that because you're insecure. Yeah, the secure people are very calm And genuinely very friendly really nice. Yeah, that's been my experience. Yeah, it's crazy, right? Beautiful too, you know, I feel like what a great guy and you feel like that's nice to you to be so So sweet to me because you obviously don't have to be Right, I'll just give you my watch Yeah, no, it's it is a fascinating thing It's like we have these ideas in our head these caricatures You know what what a tough man is what a good woman is one of this is what that is and as I think one of the beautiful things About film when a film is really good as you see these complex characters and it's sort of like reformulates in your mind Like what a person actually is Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people. Yeah, you know, and yeah, yeah, I completely agree I mean, I look the fundamental like challenge I think in life and Is like you're like to find some Emility which means actually thinking you might be wrong about the shit that you're pretty sure about and it means that like you kind of have to assume Somebody else might have a point, you know, it's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees you because I fuck him He's an asshole. He said that you know, like those are things that actually take work to get to Because the the first instinct because you just defend your idea or whatever It's easier is to just that it's a zero something. Yeah, so yeah, that that too competing ideas can't exist Well, that's somebody can't be a good person like and believe it right right like if you decide it's oh you disagree We don't believe so we're I don't know what about this or what about that But once you find yourself relying on like why need to like zero out this person's humanity right In order to defend my idea I think that's a pretty good indicator that like there's something wrong with the way you're thinking like because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad Who disagrees me? I think that was one of the most interesting things about the sopranos is that the main character the guy that you loved was a fucking murderer Yeah, he was like who would murder his friends He was a Complete mobster and a thug, but you really loved him love the shit out of it It was so complicate It was my daughter doing the part that you found yourself being like I know I think you probably has to kill him now Yeah, but that's also that's also great a great actor like there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did street car name desire and Tennessee Williams who wrote it like Reeked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski. He was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski and Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute. He's this he was like a two-dimensional breuder just came and Beat up his wife and bit you know and it was just and was supposed to be this kind of dark looming force over the play But Brando was like now he's a human being and I'm gonna play him like a fucking human being and and it changed the the play But but Williams was in all of his life in the real world Everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has the reasons for why they're doing and people don't set out to be like I'm just gonna or hurt someone or dominate the world like you think well, I got to protect what I had it's like You know, I bring back this movie, but it's like what I liked about rip was it was kind of the slippery slope You know that first time you take a little money and then well, you know, I got covered out of my go to jail I didn't know my reason why I did that but now I've told lie now I got to cover that thing and now you have guys who both live by this code that's very hey protect the people who are with you And you got to have this fucking and so now it's to be a very similar Like by that kind of slippery slope. I've ultimately find themselves, you know Well, I killed one another Because and it's really not I don't I don't believe in that one choice turn It's like more how do you find yourself you dig yourself in a fucking hole because you're just covering up the let trying to fix the last problem That's a reason, you know and everybody thinks Abate is of course the roots for themselves is like empathize with themselves That's what we have to be concerned with ourselves. Our needs our families are basic shit It's a hard to expect people to go like all right and and and what about you know Like what they think and I and I think that's I think it's a it's a much more honest evaluation of people and it allows for like complexity and forgiveness and fucking all the shit That's Sort of beautiful about people like rather than this notion of like well, we're gonna be binary good or bad perfect or not Whatever and any infraction then it's like permanently stains you right Right, that's like what we're talking about earlier about people that have been cancelled You know that this idea that one thing you said or one thing you did and now we're gonna exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization In perpetuity. Yeah, it's fucking crazy. Yeah, I was because because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail or 18 months or whatever to and and then come out and say no, but I That we can't I paid my debt like we're done. Yeah, can we be done like the the thing about about that you know Getting kind of excoriated publicly like that. It's just never ends and it's and it's the first thing that You know, it's just it just will follow you to the grave I think it's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye They have this like desire to chop them down always You know and anybody that stumbles in the public eye they want to destroy their life Then they want to just pile on and you're not there with them. You don't feel the empathy You're not talking to they're not a human being. It's just text on a screen Right. It's just like kind of like we're saying like that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like Oh, he's in trouble. You know, there's this we you know human like we have dark fucked up instincts too sometimes to like Isolate people or get joy out of someone else's their in trouble because maybe because part of it's saying Hey, it's not me, you know, it's a point to finger everyone's looking over there. We feel safer, you know, right? But it's it's like again and to to take any forgiveness out of it You know, it's a really fucked up thing because then it makes it impossible a to actually go all right Yeah, I did that fuck shit. That was wrong. I get it, you know Because it doesn't matter once you've said you've done it you've you've become like an outcast and I don't think anybody wants to think you know like you're the sum total who you are as your worst moment You know, it's sort of like The you know are you know, I think you want to be judged as whether you're capable of doing something good or something beautiful It's not to say to forget you know, there's people that just over and over and over and over and doing a horrible shit Don't care. I get it. No one's trying to like absolve that but you remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in the complicated Or else it's kind of when become of those things. It's like a It's get one of ours or one of them the instinct to get like a team tribal oriented and just becomes a sport. Yeah Yeah, it's also like who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption. That's crazy Like that's just denying the very nature of human beings and that people do things that they regret and they do and then they become better people because of it and to do Yeah, that's why I would rely on the most like trust my kids with the most of I've done shit that they that they really regret and you know, what's yeah, objectively wrong And other people have been like I shit. I did that. I fucking whether it's like addiction I got myself down this fucking right did this. I did this They're able to go I did it. I'm sorry. It's real. I shouldn't have done it. It was wrong But actually that those people can become someone that's very trustworthy. Yeah, because you're like this motherfucker We'll say if they've done so they'll actually look at their own behavior They'll acknowledge it and then you you feel you feel good and you feel much versus someone who tells you like I'm I'm I'm I got all I always get right Well, it's like it's all it's about evolution right and and and and in our own personal evolution and we're all in our on our own path towards that Like the idea of attacking some ways like oh, so you You waste the test like put your pencil down like you nail me You're done Human that's not possible because you forgot about the part about forgiveness Right, giant part of it. They're right definition. It's right there throwing stones It's most of the people that I find especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something Most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable shit in their past And it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack That's the thing like if I can point my fingers like home's gonna be yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. That's a good guy He's calling the mouth exactly. Yeah, well You know Yeah, it's like you you're telling me to see wake up dead man the knives that the third nice. That's great I watched I really liked it. I thought it was a really interesting like You know, I'm not a religious guy. I don't like that's you know, and yeah, I'm aware of all the like okay, you know There's the religion and there's people who's both rational. I thought was a really beautiful movie about like Words the role of grace in life, you know And and they're really honest examination of that like sitting but there's an side by side with yeah, okay You don't believe it but like you and you know, so it's not about like whether it's gonna argue over fucking evolution It's about like how graceful are you in your life? You know how much fucking dignity can you afford other people? I know you will recognize and see that there's maybe something bigger than yourself and that there's a reason to to like to try to sort of be Define like grace to get better, you know, it was really beautiful and kind of rare and Really surprised was really surprised too. I kind of put it on and not you know, not not I mean, I mean, yeah, I loved it. Yeah, yeah, I loved it too. I think it's one of the best of the three It's yeah, my it was my favorite of it. Those are great. Daniel Craig is great in that role He's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, got goes from James Bond to that and so many other things as well So it's also kind of that who played the priest Because I first saw him on the ground. Yeah, I like him a lot I fucking man what an actor he is really really good. How much film do you guys consume? Do you spend a lot of time watching films? I mean, do you consider it? There's a lot like if we're working as we're watching cuts after cuts and going to editing room like there's a lot of kind of work around All the stuff that we have going that that eats into a lot of time Mostly trying to keep up with what people are doing my issue is really that Like we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out are more interesting and very like They're all jammed out at the last fucking month of the year and so all of a sudden you're trying to raise your homework I got really lucky like Recently my son, you know 13 society wants to like watch movies, you know, and I like him shit like what are you fucking? We always were gonna take talking shit like we want to let's watch a movie and you know, he's kind of blow me off And we're all eyes and you're like, you know, I mean if you're dead you're kind of an asshole fun to me like come on Right, you don't know what's going on. You know what I mean like he told me one time he was like dad I said look let's watch this movie. I played in the trailer It was it was I can't remember what the movie was was a good movie and the trailer was good He just looks at it and goes, you know what you guys ought to do you guys ought to work with some of the tiktok editors It's just like wow I went and told the end of that I told Billy and Chris that because like guys. They got news for you That's it but but now he's like all right. Let's watch like what are some movies? I should watch you got ladder box He got into that thing, you know, it's like so I said okay. What are the great movies? I'll give you a list. Let's start giving him a list They started watching them and so I mean this is like heaven for me so it's like okay. What do you watch? Can't comedy like last week you watch the actor driver cake up all these squarcees and And it really was like oh man I because in my mind I'm like sure I've seen that movie. I know I watched him again. It was like like See it. I could realize how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watch it when I was younger And it really and it was just the most beautiful fucking experience for me to watch with my son like taking an interest in the This is the you know the older two have always been a little bit like yeah dad no great But you guys want to come to the premiere? No, not really Guess what come to the set? No, I'm good. You know, and that's just too much familiarity You know you grow with the dad is a movie star. Just like yeah the kids got in and I get it You got to be your own person doing the thing to have all their own shit and I get you know I never even so I never expected it from my son and I don't know that he's gonna you know And I wouldn't want to lean on him like hey getting to the family business Most of the time it's just like you know we go to like basketball games baseball all that stuff and But it but this was a really that was like So joyful you know what I mean to sit there and watch movies of my my kid I was like this doesn't get better. This is the happiest. I may ever be in my whole life You know right here watch this movie and he's like, well, we he's telling me what he thinks you know I just like like honestly the rest of it you can fucking keep it. Yeah, that's awesome That's the best. Well, it's great that you guys still love film, you know That's it hasn't become just a job that hasn't become a thing that you do that you really enjoy it and love it Yeah, it was never a job I mean it really like we was it was like the an absolute dream from the time we were kids We beat it fucking high school theater together, you know like that's crazy It was like we're lucky to get it and lucky to The whole idea that you could even the goals like to make a living the not have to be like well. I'm an actor, you know, slash A waiter contractor dental assistant Yeah, you know like actually I can earn money. I can and we always figured like I don't need that much Especially if we not kids, you know, okay, we can make a living or it's you know, maybe it's fucking gonna be dinner theater Or maybe it's gonna be right. Maybe it's gonna be there be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it Yeah, well, there's something that I mean I love when people love things I I spend time on YouTube watching people like Fix watches, you know like I don't know why but I love when people make furniture I love I love watching people do things that they really love that they're invested in I think we all have that thing in us where we see someone who's got a passion for something someone who really loves it and That's what everybody really wants in life to be lost in the thing you love to have a purpose. Yeah Yeah, and even watching someone else with true purposes. Yeah, very it's hitting out. It's rising Joe versus the volcano God He's like, uh, he's luggage is the central preoccupation of my life Yeah, it's a luggage salesman. He fucking loves he loves nothing more than luggage And like that's the greatest thing I asked Tom Hanks about that when I did saving private Ryan I was like, can you tell me about that scene because we love this scene so much and you go and you name the actor He's a Broadway actor. I guess the guy he came in he worked for like one day in this scene And he's so good in that movie and then at the very end he's showing them all the luggage and Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend he thinks he's dying and so he basically goes like well, what's the best luggage? You know, and he opens up this thing and there's this trunk and it's like this music plays and he opens it and Tom Hanks is like I'll take two of them You guys have been in some fucking bangers man Save a private Ryan that opening film the storming of the beach Unbelievable that might be the the most realistic depiction of war the Tuberman Bay So I remember reading the script and there was all these dialogue all the stuff that was written And I came late because I'm only in the he shot it chronologically and I'm only in the last you know the last act of the movie basically and and And he told me on set I was saying how did I go how did it go the beginning go there? Is that all that dialogue with them on the boat coming in and and Stephen goes he just goes I cut I cut all of that out he goes he goes no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie Whoa, and that was when I was like oh my god this movie is gonna be fucking on I think Tom says like I'll see you on the beach or something. He's screaming you know guys are You can look at the man next to you. Yeah, remember it's not gonna live through that. That was the script right remember that Yeah, it was it was look at the man next to you. He won't let you know it's got it You're like two out of three of you were gonna die so look to your left look to your right and feel bad for those two sons of bitches Because they're not gonna make it you know it was stuff like that and Steers is like nope No, these guys are puking. They're vintage like the things up. You just hear You know, and it's just like and then just boom and you're into it and Also, they did this incredible like cinema changing Yeah, open the shutter all the way Iskip the the bleach process in developing the film I don't I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in their Maybe but I just remember maybe it's just the open shutters just Remember that it just means that instead of like the motion blur is what makes something that like Moves across the frame quickly if you look at each frame It's like a blurred thing and when you roll those are 24 frames it gives you this the illusion that it moves across fluidly it if you Basically open the shut up so you get much more light each frame takes a super sharp picture And when you run those together like the piece of dust And so the mortar explosions are going And you get that feeling that you're a adrenalized and you're seeing you know what I mean? And it's just yeah, yeah, and nobody had ever done it and The master of the thing yeah, he understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea And it's that's just masterful like that's just how you do it. There's nobody direct movies who doesn't go I still work. Yeah, that's that's how you do it That's uh, it's like you say one of those things a guy that's passionate and also You know caring about something You know, it's couldn't that that to with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness Yeah, and it's I think why we love to see that whether you know sports Like in you know fighting or whatever it is There's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that yeah that person When you go fuck like when you see Michael Jordan like that there was that whole movie that we did airs Really all about like what does it mean to be great? And how's it like touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to Like improve their own lives because somebody's just Better at that thing than anybody else in the world. Yeah, it's it's transfixing You know, I mean I find that really Fascinating like I you know people who are great at something and the mystery of like well What does that like and what does that do to your life and how did you get that way and what does it take you know And what's the cost? Because it truly be great. It's something you have to kind of almost abandon everything I've seen that in various ways like in that kind of just empirical personal study I haven't seen anybody who I think like qualifies for that who didn't also seem to be really suffering Oh, honey, you know, and you're like damn you should be so happy You're the greatest you've been in the you know interviewers always how do you feel right now? There's that sense that like you this never finished or it's never enough And they can't enjoy it or their care. It's so in line we put in air where it's like and you have to be that You have to be that thing you know like it's a kind of a burden too in a way 100% and I just see that and that's why we we want these heroes And people who are great to I don't know, you know Glorish have their life and have it all in hand like there's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens too and I It's yeah, but it's like you say there seems to be a real cause there's always a massive cost in personal relationships Because there's no way you have the time for other things and the obsession that you have to be the best at something You have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else You have to have this single-minded focus and that comes with the cost for the rest of your life because you damage Relationships you feel like a piece of shit and you see that up close and like that's not admirable right? Yeah, you don't get a fuck about anybody else. No, I do I just care about this more Yeah, you know, it's like so imagine that You're making the sacrifices and it's causing injury to people and you know it and you don't want to hurt them But you can't help it and you get them rewarded for it, you know, it's It's complicated. Yeah, it's it's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you and you ruin all your relationships That's right. Maybe that's why I said don't meet your heroes There's something to it man. There really is but it's just we all grow from it There's a fuel to watching greatness. There's a thing that that hits you and lights you up Where you want to do more you want to be better you want to whatever it is that you can do whatever it is you do do You become more whether it's a great game a winning touchdown whether it's a great film. Yeah, great song Yeah, it lights you up and it's the fuel that we all live off of that consumes that like we consume to make our culture move forward Yeah You know, it was like a sacrificial element to it the people that do it and we all feed off of it Uh-huh, and it feels like well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it right right But in great film me how many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films like when I was a kid I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out and I I saw it immediately ran around the block I was eating raw eggs I'm like this is gonna change my life like it there's things that happen when you see something truly great That it makes you want to be better as a human being I make sure remember where I was when I saw Denzel washington play Malcolm X when's the movie watch that movie? I remember leaving I met him I think I want to be a better man I thought that in my mind, you know because of what I had seen This actor do and this before and the way you know that was the only real conscious thought I had but I remember having it And and kind of being surprised by it, you know, and it does it it that she can you know, it's really touched me You know a lot of fucking People's work and and that's why you get that like You know you you see people you want to let them know you know what he mean and tell them and um I know I always think people come to go. Hey, I love that movie. I was like ah, you don't have to say that you know I mean, right, right, right It makes me kind of Uncomfortable and I don't ever like put myself in with those figures who I think are like no, but there's These these towering giants who have done this, you know, I don't know it's uh It's it's it's I finally kind of arrived to a place where I was like listen to people So I saw a good one thing and made me want to go out to Hollywood writer script and I think oh shit Okay, you know what whatever it is like great that's the thing that the cost of your fame You know that you have to there's gonna be a bunch of people that are gonna come up to you And then want to say those things to you and like wanting them to say those things to you is the opposite of the mindset that you need to make those Which is it's so counter intuitive you think like once you become really successful You make a bunch of great things. It's gonna be awesome having all these people come up to you like no no no I'm doing something else right now And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your I also I can't just satisfy or take any fucking joy that because I don't think I'm good enough I need to fucking you know what I mean right never sassy yeah Yeah, you can't and that's the the darkness of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied You see in a lot of the fighters the same kind of thing. Oh great fighter Well also fighters have a very small window of greatness There's there's only like a certain amount of years we can burn the RPMs at the red line And then eventually the knees go the back goes you start earlier than other sports. It must be yes I think so because like Tom Brady is still elite. I bet he could probably play football right now I bet he you know what how old Tom now 40 40 Fist right now probably yeah, I bet he could still play Yeah, I mean, but that's a yeah, I mean that's a very specific skill position in the way he played it You know right running back no right right but at cornerback the elite levels of MMA especially with you sought a testing and you know And now drug free sport testing when they are Making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone and all these different things like you have nine years You have nine years at peak performance. This is legitimate like longs john Jones been going John Jones is a freak of all freaks because john Jones beat Daniel Kormier when he was on coke That was one of the funny things he said in the press conference for the rematch Daniel was talking shit he goes I beat you when I was on coke That's Getting arrested. He was partying for when he fought uh Gustafson He beat Gustafson and he didn't train at all. I talked to his trainer He's like he didn't even show up at the gym. He was fucking never there. He was never training He could just show up and beat everybody's ass thing My Instagram feed of a fighter and I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight and He goes I had the chance to spar with john Jones to work with john Jones And he goes I you know, I knew about it months ahead of time He goes I got every my nutrition everything was absolutely flawless I got all you know my sleep everything was on he goes I show up at the gym that morning he goes To me and five other guys he goes he comes in Think he went to sleep at four in the morning or something. He's out all night And he goes he ran through all seven buddy bread and chop. Is that who I'm okay? Yeah He was the funniest story I was like and he goes and then I just knew you know like That's that's a that's a level like But imagine being that elite And realizing there's another level. Yeah. Oh, yeah, Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight and john wasn't even a heavyweight John was a light heavyweight It was a lower-weight class and he just beat everybody's ass and he said this is his warm-up I mean he has a unique aptitude for MMA But also he had two brothers that were super athletes. Yes, played for the Patriot and Arthur And so these guys are super athletes and so they're beating the shit out of each other all the time So they're like constantly in competition with elite athletes from the time he's a child So he was just so tuned into competition and he's so intelligent like his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's and he would study tape meticulously that that that's been in Kick that he did that steeped a meochus Where he where he said he and I think he thanked his Taekwondo coach He said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides. Yeah, because of something he saw on the tape And he and he got it off and hit this guy so hard Not even not even on his liver side he hit him on the other side and you see it shutter through his entire like organ structure Yeah, his heel was deep into his body cavity like so it was so annoying Yeah, and but he it's but he he he just practiced this one specific And he was like it's he and he even said he goes it is a devastating shot like yeah, there's not a human being who could take that No, it's like getting hit by a car. Yeah, because when you but getting hit by a car in one spot You know what I mean size of a foot 13 foot. Oh, yeah, here's what's this he sets him up boom It's just and it's like yeah, no, it's over. It's over. It's over And this is John moving up to heavyweight because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore He decided to become a two division champion. I mean John was a freak. You see it wrong And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing because he caught him with a bent leg Right, right. It wasn't even fully extended, which you know was even more deficit But John realized that as a heavyweight He didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight and so he said the most powerful kick is a spinning back kick So I'm just gonna work on that kick over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot Okay, that's just it's not just the physicals if he's also like a genius Well, he's also like He's the most meticulous when it comes to game planning and study He will not take a short notice fight even a guy that he could fucking beat any day of the week He can wake him up at three o'clock in the morning. He can fuck that guy up He will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight Let's just you know greatness, but John's troubled, you know John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUI's and all kinds of crazy shit He's you know, he's a wild fella and you know and that pursuit of greatness I'm sure has cost him a lot of shit in his personal life But you know when he knocks deepay out and then did the trump dance in front of the whole world For that moment he's on top of the world You know, but then again, it's like the same thing you're as soon as you get back like what's next? You know, yes, there's another challenge. There was no matter how many people love you now Like it's not good enough if someone else looming you got to beat this guy That seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to both have the like complete compulsion To have to get to the next level and the next level keeps fucking yeah The goalposts. I'll never forget um, I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ pen He lost the Walter Way title to BJ pen and I'm interviewing him inside the octagon He said I'm gonna be honest with you. It was actually a relief Oh, it goes the pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so ever in the whole world chasing you He goes I'm gonna be honest. I thought I was an incredibly Brave moment for a guy to say that who is you know, it's just this fucking amazing human being this warrior To say I just got to be honest. It's a relief losing my title feels like a relief And I was like wow like that is so So brave to be that honest in front of the one because everybody's like you just got your ass kicked It's like I'm this is a relief You know, I took a burden off my bag. I'll be back. I'm gonna regroup, but I needed that I needed just Step off the fucking top of the hill for a little while. Jesus Christ. You gotta be like a great actually relief to be able to say something nice Got to give a gift instead of feeling like you got a higher pretend it and go yeah It was a lot to carry and I you know Well the thing about fighting is everything you try to hide gets exposed You're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these these round Well, they take like try to buy you that was here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah They're they're taking like you know five guys and they're Rotating them in with you. So you're doing five rounds with fresh guys So you got one guy who is fucking warmed up getting you know getting ready for you And then you're fucking out of breath and they'll give you a 30 second break instead of a minute And then they're throwing in these monsters and you know, you're exposed You're you're getting beat in training. You're getting smothered in training. You're you're exhausted You know, you're always Reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them You gotta hit them and then they got to figure out where that limit is and okay next week We're gonna do one extra round. We're gonna do this. We're gonna do that. We're gonna do more strength conditioning We're gonna push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So you're always breaking You're always you're always at the point where you can do no more because it's the only way to get and you can only maintain that Like the conditioning that they get in when they step into the octagon It's not possible to maintain that. No, right, right You have to aim at that one moment and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, you have to peak and then if you fuck up and over train which a lot of those guys do just because they're such savages Never want to leave the gym Then they don't peak right and then they come in and they're exhausted They didn't recover properly and then in between rounds are too tired and they can't go out for the next round They're too beat up that happens too I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you over train. Oh god In an actual championship and you realized you're you there's no you can't bounce back and this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks hitting you with punches and you can't get out of the way anymore Do you think who was it was it could be who said that they they should just do 25 minutes just a lot of people said that That I mean that's a It's a song's in play. What's going on Fuck a technology the test keep brothers playing in my pocket. That's hilarious. Um, sorry about that Well, hoist gracy always said that like that was how he fought in the early days. They just straight 25 minutes Like look he goes if we're on the ground it goes I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds And he goes I need time to cook them That's what he'd say yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's what jujitsu is all about jujitsu is all about Staying one step ahead of you until you become exhausted and you know and then they eventually finish you Like a like a just for what constricts. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the real that's but you know There's this balance of like making it Interesting for this for people to watch. I I've been a proponent of No stand-ups don't ever stand anybody up when a guy takes you down Like you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't earn it So you should never get stood up in a fight. I don't care if the guy's doing nothing if he's holding you down and you can't get up That's how it should be so it's more realistic But it's the balance of it being a sport and yeah making it because people get when people grab someone to take him to the ground Nothing got people go boo you hear the audience and then the referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up And I'm always like ah don't stand them up It's I never thought of it that way that the beginning of the round starts it to the advantage of the always always always always You're in a position you didn't earn you never got back up You know, I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round because it's one fight It's not five fights. So if you start it standing up in the beginning of each round. That's a new fight Yeah, right in a way. No, you're in a way. You're pitching like I Quickly with the UFC go out of business real quick 30 seconds there on the ground and then it's 24 and a half minutes I would give the fighters more money I would fuck up the whole business model. I would get rid of the cage I would have them all fight in a basketball court Just put mats on the ground in the basketball court. I don't think you should have a cage The cage gets in the way it becomes a way to get back up because you press your back up against your back I see a back up again and you're in the middle of the center of a mat It's very difficult to get back up and that's realistic right You know, you're using a foreign object to help you perform. Yeah, right. Yeah But you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage and it's like they lock you in there You know, I match yeah, yeah, it's just uh But I mean it terms of Like inspirational performances and things that you would you see like the human spirit elevated to the The highest possible place when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three fucking months And then you know the referee's like are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go and that's like that moment like is It's not not like anything else in all sports. I think that's the moment that like people show up for yeah Because they build the intends it's the same with like the little Tyson fights or whatever like now it's gonna happen Yeah, and there's there you can't help Have that feeling once it you know, I mean, yes I'm fighting to end up being disappointed whatever but there that moment is always there Well Tyson was an crazy example of what we were talking about with greatness because like you could dedicate your whole life You could fucking get up in the morning at the right time you could eat all the right foods You could do all the right training I have no chance you know So you had the look in his eye We don't only fight as well. You just see the other guy was scared. Yeah, usually they At least homes up together where they come off like oh, I don't know. This guy looks pretty tough Guys will fight Tyson and just would start and they'd feel that moment too. Oh shit They're letting this tiger out a here he comes and it was like yeah Well, we're old enough to remember when he was in his prime and those fights were like executions You didn't want to pay remember with the paper view because I was so fine I'm I swear I mean I mean Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart And they cut to his wife and she was crying And this is when they're coming to the center of the ring and she got but by the way for good reason like this man might kill my husband Right, you know what I mean like we're certainly gonna beat the fuck out of him and she knows it in the world knows it And I was already you could remember that dude hurricane or whatever white kid who fought him He's making alien when the hits guy couldn't wait to throw the towel and he had it ready like You know what I mean to go all right, that's that's it. The bell rings he picks up the Magnilies fucked up now too when you hear him talk. It's rough. It's rough to hear. Oh really? Yeah, so I'm get interviewed recently. That's the dark side of the sport of of MMA and a fighting You know you talk like I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday and Johnny Knoxville was knocked on conscious 16 times Jesus yeah, that's what I said and I'm like holy shit man and he seems normal Like he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage now when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage They're slurring their words and they're still fighting They're words all mumbled together like you have no idea how much they're struggling Yeah, yeah, like and they're they're gonna be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life It's not gonna get better. It's gonna get way worse because the real brain damage occurs like 10 years after the injuries That's what it really said really start. Let's just keep asking for any worse I mean there's some therapies that they can do now there's like they they do And Knoxville to some of it like this magnetic therapy that they do that restimulates neuron growth and And oddly enough mushrooms like psilocybin has been shown much And cure a whole bunch of shit. I know well probably always has yeah, right All of a sudden they in acknowledging it. Yeah, well one of the things that's open in the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers Because it's always been kind of like a left-wind wing thing to be in the psychedelics But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from you know bombs blowing up night days and concussions and the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics So it's kind of like in Texas former governor Rick Perry has started the iBegin initiative So they're using iBegin to help all these different soldiers Which is ironically the drug that hunter s Thompson claimed ed musky was on when he was running for president Yeah, everybody's saying ed muskies It's what is iBegin it's from the aboga tree and it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational It is a very difficult experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a 24 hour trip I haven't done it But my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you You see where all your problems come from you see where all of your emotional hitches are or yeah, and with addictions it has an 80% 80 I think it's 84% with one treatment They quit whatever they're hooked on what not only that rewires the brain So the physical pathways to addiction like someone who's just dig to opiates gone completely severed So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore So with one treatment 80 plus percent of people it's incredible with two treatments. It's in the 90s It's amazing. It's amazing and it's been illegal You know since like 1970 in this country the sweet psychedelic that like a clinic or whatever But Rick Perry um because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worth a lot of veterans that you know And he's a very compassionate and intelligent man He realized like okay, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff And so he started getting behind this iBegin initiative They passed it in Texas and now they're doing it with soldiers and they're gonna do it with police officers and I mean police officers experience more PTSD like I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin and he said and he was also in the military And he said what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw as a police officer really because I was seeing Death and violence on a daily basis. He goes when you're deployed He goes yeah, you're gonna you're gonna see some horrible shit But you're gonna see some horrible shit mixed in you know over a course of time Where you know you go out and then things go live because like every day Every day you're going directly every day who's having the worst moment of their life and every day you're pulling someone over They might shoot you like you have no idea you're you're pulling up to Tinted windows. You don't know what the fuck is going on. You're running the plate the the licenses expired You have no idea who's who's in the car. You don't you don't know anything And you've seen all the videos we've all seen videos of cops getting shot down like when they're pulling over a car We've all seen it and so these guys are living with this fucking PTSD all the time And then they have to live in real life They they're supposed to go home and they're supposed to just be a normal dad and a normal neighbor And their fucking head is just a hurricane of chaos And I began has been very beneficial for those people to just Just sort of come down and and try to find the root of all this stuff and and get them off pills and get them on the straight That's great It's amazing. I don't know why we got into mushrooms. Well, I began because During the During the presidential elections He started spreading these rumors and it's in the the documentary I get what is that that documentary is it fear and loathing Gonzo Gonzo that's right in that documentary Gonzo he talks about it So he's getting interviewed by dick Cavitt and he goes he goes yeah He goes there was a room we're running around that Ed musky was on iBegin and I knew about it because I started that rumor What do you mean? So the guy completely cracked so like this guy was like a front runner for the president And he's like completely cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs Because hunter's Thompson was just running around like saying there's just Brazilian witch doctors are going in to treat this guy Is crazy shit They were like a hunter would know Yeah, yeah, but it's crazy that he chose iBegin too because iBegin is like It's not a recreational drug and it's not a drug of addiction It's a literally drug that stops addiction But that he was the guy that would have the full cow that whole book some full of these fucking Yeah, drugs you never heard of Yeah, he just really casual away like yeah Of course, we're gonna stop to get iBegin at the one gas station that's so weird Needles and nothing Yeah, sure no question. Yeah, but it does help people that have brain damage as well It's it's supposed to like cause some sort of neuro regeneration. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is there stuff out there that they're gonna help people but The large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering and we don't ever hear about it They say like it's supposed to be that it's that like the argument is is because it's you know They're not using a glove like that football is supposed to wear I mean wasn't that the sort of rationale that like You were gonna have less impact in boxing because they're the boxing gloves now, but it's remember this all It's like the subcooking cuss of blows. It's like It's not necessarily the the one shot knocking you out as much as the repeated Kind of like small like little bit of brain. I'm sure that's like they're all bad for you Yeah, you know what I mean? Like a version of knocks to the head or not I think yeah be avoided. Yeah Well, it's also what you take in training too. We're only considering what happens during a fight For guys 40 50 MMA fights that's how many rounds does I have right in the gym? Oh training camp is fucking brutal And depending upon how intelligent your camp is like some people are really smart and they'll spar Where they're not hitting each other hard and then maybe one day of the week they go live But you do it with trusted, you know, they're they're very close to you These are people that you care about in love so they're not gonna try to hurt you on purpose Sometimes not like sometimes you're in a hostile gym And you know, you got to spar with people you don't even know they're from other countries You have a big name. They're trying to take you out You know, it's But the the amount of damage these guys take mean I don't know football's better or worse They're all the thing about football is the big impacts are way worse Because when you've got a three hundred pound super athlete. Yeah, that's fucking full till the way from across I mean starting. Yeah, you're getting hit by a truck And that but that doesn't It's it's not targeted necessarily at your head So it's like what what is better and what is worse, you know boxings bat, you know It's like you have less options MMA slightly better because if especially if you're a grappler You can take guys down and you can beat them up on the ground But it's ultimately you're paying a price Yeah, but for that glory for that one moment when they win and the fucking 16,000 people are on their feet screaming There's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it and those guys chase that high Their entire life and then after it's over they you know, they feel oddly detached Right, the thing ever rises to that level again, right? You can make films until you're a hundred years old You know, you can make great films forever. You can do the thing that you love forever They have a little window a little window that's a really tough thing about being an athlete like I Was talking to Pete Samperous that time we met Sam Years ago, he was like we were probably I don't know how we were 30 was 30 two or something like that And he was kind of like oh my god, you know, he had all these fucking you know, wins and grand slams And he had a kind of vaguely like yeah, he was like, hey guys look I'm about to retire. It's from finished And we're you know young guys were you know just getting started, you know I mean like where it also the thing is you get better at your job the more you do it Yeah, you know, and so that thing with the athlete. Yeah, I was having this conversation the other day It's like you have all the physical skills at the beginning But you become a better you know, what better at your sport. Yeah, you know as your skills are declining And the body just doesn't want to do it anymore. Yeah, you got to just come just like become Greg Maddox You know and compensate with all the tricks and location and but like that's why that drama of like the aging athlete is so Powerful still have it's like oh, do we still have it in me? Can I do it? How long you know? Is what I've learned Enough to compensate for what I've lost, you know Well, there's an interesting story about V Tor Belford So V Tor Belford was he won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old That was like the first event I ever worked at 1997. I mean, he was like One of the all-time greats for sure But as he was getting into his thirties, he was starting to decline Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy and boy did he fucking use it Okay, I don't know what his levels were but they were like superhuman levels and there was a moment in time For a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy and people refer to it as the TRT v Tor years Because he was fucking terrifying because he has the mind of a veteran Incredible amount of experience, but now his body is moving like a 25-year-old And so he was just annihilating people just lighting people on fire So they're not allowed to use testosterone or they can use anything No, no, how about peptides can they use peptides? Nope. Nope not even peptides They're trying to take that and and reform that but There's a lot of ignorance about peptides what they actually do I mean all it's allowing you do soft tissue injuries Heal quicker and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones So instead of adding exogenous hormones. Yeah, you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally and it'll it just makes you more healthy For a very unhealthy job and where you're you know, you're getting hurt all the time It's it's gonna be better for the sport better for the athletes to allow them to all use it And it's also there's no long-term damage. It's gonna do like steroids where it shuts down your endocrine system So I hope they reform it But the idea was that there's so many fucking loopholes and so many people cheap Big camps used to hire scientists So they had a scientist on staff that was not only pretty do Yeah exactly not only procuring stuff that that would slip by the test because there's like you know the ballco stuff We've very popular clear clear. Yeah, there's there's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through And there's a lot of experts that have like one of the things is animal derived testosterone So testosterone one of the they do these are carbon isotope test I think I believe that's what they use to figure out where the Testosterone came from so if your testosterone is like at a very high level They test all your other ratios they go well no it all seems Like he's just he's an outlier. He just has naturally high testosterone But testosterone that you get from like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam Believe it or not. Yes. Yes. Not it's not animal derived testosterone So the compositive it varies when they run the tests on it and they can determine He determined that it's a yam based testosterone It's exogenous not in dodges Right, it's not him But if they could figure out a way to and there's a lot of proof of concept to this can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources Testosterone something like that. Well the torrent they they used to inject Hitler with torrent You know Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of shit on them And one of the things they did was like inject him with bull testicles and stuff to try to keep him viral Yeah, but but they're probably our athletes right now that are using some shit that they haven't figured out yet So to give them any loopholes at all they're like no no fucking no loopholes no IVs No nothing no IVs no vitamins and right but the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and and mask steroids by over flooding the body with liquids So over yeah, so then when you push your hot because like you add more water Yes, you would just fill them up with saline and then when they go to piss like no clean Look at the ratio. It's yeah, yeah, it's like so much water is being processed through the body That it doesn't have time to show the testosterone. So there's a way to mask it Especially with like things that you would add to the IV So there's no you can't do it's only food and approved supplements through like really high level labs like thorn Thorn supplements where it's third party tested So they don't they can't do anything but for a while They let them do it and those TRT vTOR days are my favorite fights to watch Did they stop doing it fighting because they thought it was like advancing certain people or they should happen that they're like This is fucked up or they look like look at the difference That's TRT vTOR in the left and that's him on the right when they made him get off of it Look at the difference. I mean, that's fucking stunning on the left though, dude That motherfucker was terrifying when Luke Rockhold fought him He told me he goes dude when I stood next to him at the fucking way and he had muscles on his teeth He goes this fucking dude was so jacked he was so scared I was like what the fuck is he on? Because he knew he was on something It's just it's cheating It really is because you can jack your levels way above a normal human beings Because that's what a lot of guys there was a few fighters that were pulled from cards Because like say if a really high levels like 1100 they were testing like 18 1900 they were like people that have never lived before right? They were like a science project a different species In saying confidence and same confidence because they were essentially like a raging gorilla They were just insanely confident and just it's just so fired up Like they couldn't wait to smash somebody because they were just fucking maniacal. They're a berserker You know, so you it's not a person anymore now now you're a science project It's not you know, there are rare outliers who like Tyson when he was in his prime is rare physical specimens Like that's part of the game, but that's God, you know, that's nature This is not you know Balco labs and so they won't allow him to do anything anymore And that's why it's because too many and V-Tore was one of the guys that tested like way over the line And then they just decided But that's what they're gonna do if you say if you say it's legal they're just gonna take it's Good more is better and you know Yeah, if you say oh you did one CC a week they're like I heard five I heard five and these guys are just training five times a day And they never get tired and they recover like that So and they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries because they heal like you're a fuck at six-year-old You know, you just Wolverine Well, that's the thing about peptides to the Wolverine stack bp157 and tb500 I don't know if you ever get injured if you ever get injured get immediately on bp157 and tb500 I didn't hear about tb500 Thymus in beta 500 In conjunction with bp157 it is a fucking phenomenal stack and it just really helps injuries I didn't know they called it the Wolverines. That's what they call it the Wolverine stack Because you fucking heal incredibly well like you like it quickly I was talking to a pro football player pulled his hamstring. He's like dude I shot that shit right into my hamstring for two weeks and I was right back on the field I was like that's nuts. Yeah, I go what is a normal rehab? He goes three months He goes in two weeks. I was back on the field I go what the fuck he goes. I don't know how bad the injury was He goes but to me is like fuck. I pulled my hamstring. I'm fucked now for x amount of days He goes in two weeks later. I was playing full tilt Mike that's nuts and going right into the area of the injury right into it Some people think you don't have to do that. They think it's you know Systemically just like stick it in your fat on your on your side But he's like no and most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local shoot it locally into the area and it just has just like Cortisol or whatever. What is it? What is the yeah? Cortisol but Cortisol just masks None of that not only that it has a tendency if you do it too many times to week attendance Yeah, and so it could actually exacerbate the problem because it takes away the pain right yeah It takes away the pain, but I mean You know then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas this year where they're like I know my friend had that idea a long time ago He was like you should just do the the the the drug Olympics for cash He goes do it in Vegas for cash and then then They're doing it. I sent him a day. I was like they're doing it Yeah, it's just like I'm down. I love That's what I think I mean look when Barry bonds and you know Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs It was one of the most exciting times of baseball It was pretty cool. That's what they do anything right It was not a fucking mystery to anybody right, but Avery's tuning in the best brothers, right based on a strike You know they were almost fucking destroyed that league and then people started watching They got a bad yeah, and then bonds is like well These two fucking guys are hitting as many home runs. I'm the best player in baseball Which he was yep, and when he did it it lights out. Yeah, you know, I mean the year where he only swung and missed 26 times 162 games Only swung and missed 20s. I mean, that's just You know, and yeah, McGuire get like just like move his wrist to get the ball out of the park and it was like Yeah, I'm gonna spawn to watch and when people say like steroids don't make you a better athlete Well, they don't meant be don't make you better Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, if you're fucking Barry You're already an elite athlete. Yeah, it makes you like John Jones do all the juicy bonds He'd be fighting until he's 50 and fucking people up and you say John We've we've really come to our senses like this sports all about excitement Want to give the people what they want and give people let people make informed choices based on their own discretion. Oh It's like that Then noz and john looks like v-tor in that picture he'd be undefeated By the way, John beat v-tor when v-tor was in his prime and v-tor caught john in a full arm bar Totally locked his arm out hyper extended popped it went backwards. You can see the video of it His elbow is going that way a wooden tap and then beat him in the next round with one arm. Yep One arm. Fuck his arm was fucked for like a year after that Yeah Yeah, give that man some steroids The dream team is like you know the first time the the the pros went to the Olympics whatever the years Whatever you gain by 70 points. Yeah, it wasn't close But it was a hell of a lot of fun. It was for the art even for that made sense though because like these other people are being Compatated in their countries. Oh, yeah Problem and then by the way now it's got more that last Olympic championship was that was great game against France That was fabulous, you know, I mean yeah, they they're gonna wreck some smaller countries and stuff But okay, that you're playing pros are playing pros no definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit like you know Yes, it's it's it's like the people to find like a convenient definition of it according to what's there Like you see in college boards is changing and stuff like look I got no problem if you're gonna apply the rules evenly But sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse to like for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TUT No, no, you guys you're getting you're getting education Right a little bit like yeah, you know education you guys make a lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play It's exploitation. Yeah, yeah, and I'm glad they've changed that with college sports Because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats and they they deserve that money And I'm gonna be in the NFL, right? You know what I mean? So that's their way to make that money You know what I mean like it's hard it's hard and the risk of catastrophic injury is always there constant constant Yeah, and and and the the metrics for it's like what is it a two two and a half year career or something Yep depending on your position, but I mean it's it's such a long seems just fair and obvious You can pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger to college, but not to like you know come on Well, that's a great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body like acting Yeah, you can you can kind of do it forever, you know keep going to you lose it, you know, yeah, it's really yeah It's great and it's got its own competitive aspect in this lot, you know, but Like okay, great if it's if you get a really better yourself and then the expectations Well, I got to do something that's interesting enough that people want to watch it. Well, that's the proposition How do you guys decide like on projects that you choose like I'm sure you have so many options now like what what Makes you say this is what I'm gonna spend the next six months doing It's really I mean there are a bunch of different factors like like the director is being the most important one But but if you read a script and and like we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so many scripts and worked on so many movies that That if if we read something and it and it's that thing we were talking about earlier, you know, you get that At that kind of emotional something happens when you read it you did you go okay Well, then you then you pay attention to it. Maybe read it again. Go wait a minute You know if it if it moves you in that in that way then you know Ultimately the big decision is saying yes because Because you're gonna spend The last point of which you have Total control right, you know, and then you're in then you're in and and you're and you're and you're in whether it's good or bad I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew You know month into a six-month shoot that like this is not gonna work And that is that is the It is I came to think of that It happened maybe you're gonna shoot us all when I come back. Yeah, okay. It's like it's a show It's like it's it's gonna be it's gonna be 80 16 hour days in a row and then A post-production period. It's gonna be pretty fraught and then it's gonna come out and we're gonna get fucking cross And then you're gonna have to sell it The fucking plank and sit down with access How important is that stuff still today like the press stuff is that still important it is I don't know to what degree each specific thing is I mean I'm gonna ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today And remember we've been saying I was like we were saying this show This is probably more meaningful and then the rest of the shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie Like we spent this whole week in New York doing you know, I don't know how many interviews You know the the quick ones with all the hundred five minute interviews Yeah, the the evening shows that they show all that stuff and and this just given how many people listen to the show Will be more meaningful. We think I mean that's our we were speculating but his historically right if you look at it That's it because they've changed to like all of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised and and people have become Resistant that anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a stick and you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing It looks great and nobody cares like they're looking to go either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they Is trusted and a trusted person is in like your like you're your feed right and it's your friend or your cousin or it's or they Affix that to somebody which has become a more rare thing like Who's a like a legitimate neutral arbiter right who I can't predict what they're gonna say before I go there There are few of those fewer and fewer of those people in the world even those are proliferation of more and more voices And I it's kind of paradoxical like the form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter So you're like a seven second, you know, we're an advertising company We do most of the spots that we were like 15 seconds spots six second spots for social the ones most people see and then there's this one form Which is like long-form discussions that are whatever two hours long And the amazing to me is you know, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention more than you know a few seconds There's a kind of a hunger for that so there's like this form and that's why you see these are getting more popular obviously Have those massive audience and it's and it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend And I think man, I don't know that it probably has something to do with like who do I think is authentic and am I actually And willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through and and that an argument that people probably do appreciate and understand Conversations that have context and nuance and where there's like a back and forth. They're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of Give that sort of voice to in their life It's also the voice of the public too because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online And people just start like saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that It just takes off organically now Yeah, and that has more more weight than anything If you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going hey, this is great You should see it. I'm the same thing if I hear somebody tell me like you know who I respect Yeah, you got to see that thing that means more to me than anything right because I believe that And so if the closure you can get to that which is why that I think the act of a like telling the same You know, like telling the same like story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain like limited reach It's just it's just not that efficient But you have to because it's like what we sat down with our own Infisher's anaka and talked about the moon You know and you kind of do that means ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that in that market But I think ultimately it's it's like more and more people see realize they're being sold to see through the fucking act and this sort of bullshit of They recognize that you know you go out and sell every movie You know, I mean the good and the bad and then we got to decide well which one and who can you count on? Well, it's mostly going to be that like the word amount your friend and now you can see that person in your media experience You know, yeah, I think it's also We know that when you're sitting down with extra or they say like that's just their job to sit down with people They're not doing it because they want to right, you know, it's like they got told go talk to that Exactly and we got told go talk to them It's gonna go do the ritual. Yeah, they say the thing they say and we say the thing we say And everyone goes home and says we did our job That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that like like for with me I don't talk to anybody. I don't want to talk to it's just like I I literally do the whole thing on my phone. I go. Oh, yeah, that sounds cool and that's it But like that I think means a lot Yeah, at least this person's making this choice and I've listened to it a bunch and I actually find myself a green with a lot of the time So all right, I give it a shot That you know, it's exactly also like this format like at least I know why it Why I started listening to podcasts was because Be in the world like the divisive kind of the way everybody was talking these sound bites and all this shit and and it was just like The ability to just listen to human beings talk Often who does who had different points of view, but like had a civil conversation. Yeah, it was like Was such a welcome thing you know given the given the kind of the hysterical kind of you know Ransy of of of of divisiveness that's kind of it just feels it's just like You know, it's like I if I open my phone and look at the news. I'm just like fuck Yeah, put it down. I'm it's just it's it's like I feel my cortisol level go up and to actually hear people Be listen to people. I know I don't agree with but listen to him and just and just Think about it. You know what I mean? I mean I approach life with a little bit of humility Not and hold on to what you believe obviously, but but but but keep listening It's also there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations and people So people are kind of starving for that. I know yeah, and then funny that this has become the shared cultural Yeah, we'll listen to that podcast and then actually Experience that look because and also people why don't people trust the media well because the media doesn't do that Because they compress it and because the truth it's money because actually doing that's not with money Just ratings and the perceived idea that like well if you simplify it or you you position it one way or the you engender outrage And that's simple or just you know pure one-sided ideas that are that are simple You know, but the news used to be the idea was look here's the FCC We're gonna let these networks broadcast their shows and make money on it But here's the deal you got to give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively Then it started to be no you got to make money for that hour too, and if you're gonna make money That's a different incentive then tell the truth or report there's or any of those things and people try to Hybridize them, but at the end of the day you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more and then they're doing the same thing looking at their data You know, grand what are people watching what kinds of stories and and I think it's a simple answer is because you're just You're making it into a profit game those incentives are not aligned with right just trying to get down to like even reporting basic Facts Yeah, it's a weird time. It's like we have more access to information than ever before, but so much of it It's just horseshit. Yeah, you know, it's it's hard to stay balanced Yeah, and I think that's why it's good to like listen to the people just talk And and then you recognize like the flaws in their thinking you feel ego you feel Deception bullshit, you know, it's true people reveal themself like you actually we actually don't need that many editorialists Yeah, to be constantly telling us what to think and how to think people actually have pretty good instincts You know if I was bullshit you eventually look kind of hang them So you like you said you'll get that vibe After a while he kind of started repeating his stick and I kind of didn't really talk about what I was wondering about and You form your own that's like forming your own judge people to judge actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts He's like because you you go on there and you have your points But you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours like you can only stick to these lines Yeah, you know, you're talking points and bullshit for and then and then perhaps the people just like there was an art to like look at how great that Communicare they stick to the message and they do their points Okay, 30 seconds 60 seconds, but any longer than that it just starts to look like a fucking robot on you know And like I said what we need to follow through with You know, sometimes the same hand gesture and the same bit with that, but I'm you know sometimes you find out they're full of shit Just by having them talk about other things You know like tell me do you like cooking? You know like just like right and then you just see like some concocted They're thinking what makes me look good if about cooking Exactly That's exactly it like do I cook or do I not what what what I write that make me feminine or does it make me open to cultural And it's just yeah, what do you like to cook man? I don't go. I just you know Well, that's the other thing about people that are online too much is they're so concerned with other people's opinions That they don't have enough time to formulate their own They're just so concerned with how people are gonna perceive everything you say that you're like handcuffed You're like terrified to misspeak right right I think that in general is a real fucking danger. I mean you were we were talking the other day We're saying about like one of the birth benefits of getting older and doing this for a long time is You realize like nobody really gives a shit as much about you as you know, you just kind of kind of like Nobody's been your 20s and 30s and making like this is really important and then you realize no one fun I'm like I got to come off. What's gonna be a people no one actually it's not that big a deal Nobody knows people are mostly worrying about themselves in their life And yeah, yeah, there's this illusion that they pay a passing moment of attention or it's in some story It's like you're fucking staring at it because it's about you right, you know, you know that you said that about me Nobody else really nobody cares. Yeah, and if they do they're usually fucked up like something's wrong white Constraint this other person's life. That's right. You're probably trying to ignore your own bullshit. Yeah Well listen man your movie's fucking awesome. I've loved so much of your your films over the years So it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this. It's been great Very normal nice movie stars You guys are cool as fuck give us a couple more hours I enjoyed it and I really enjoyed the rip it's fucking great and uh everybody go see it. It's great. I loved it. Thank you Thanks for being here. All right. Let's play it. Fire buddy Mmm