Mike Vigil on Cartels, Matthew McGuire on Tariffs, John Baick on Online Accusations

Westwood One presents America at Night. Here's your host, McGraw-Millhaven. Joining us, we've got a busy Thursday night in store for you. Let's get right to it. A little bit later on in this hour, we're going to be talking tariffs with the former director of the World Bank. And where do we go from here when it comes with tariffs? This first half hour of the first hour, we're going to stay in Mexico and talk to a retired DEA official who is widely considered one of the best in the business. Mike Vigil joins us for a couple of minutes. Mike, thank you for joining us here on America at Night. Well, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure. Can you explain in layman's terms what actually happened these last couple of days in Mexico? Basically, there was a very effective operation that was launched by the Mexican government to capture the Mexico Seguera Cervantes, better known as El Mencho, who is the leader of the Jalisco New Generation Cartel, which is one of the most powerful drug trafficking organizations in the world. And they launched an attack this past Sunday, and it was a fierce gun battle that took place. And Mencho was severely wounded along with two of his bodyguards, and several other members of the Least Corning Generation cartel were killed. And Mencho and the two bodyguards were put on a helicopter, and they were going to transport them to a hospital within the state, but they expired on the flight. So then they took him to Morena, the capital of Michoacan, put him on a Casa aircraft, and then flew him to Mexico City. And then the Mexican cartels then retaliated, and what we're hearing is that they don't normally go after tourist locations. And that seems exactly what they did. Well, here's the thing, is that immediately after the killing of El Mencho, there was a retaliation by the cartel in 20 of the 32 Mexican states. And they killed 25 members of the Mexican National Guard in six separate attacks. The Mexican military retaliated, and they killed 34 criminals. The cartel conducted what they called narco blockades, and they had at least 250 of them where they take buses, vehicles, they set them on fire and block the roads. There were sporadic eruptions of gunfire. People were getting caught in the crossfire, so it became highly dangerous. Normally, they don't go into tourist areas because the Mexican government has a lot of security there. But in the recent past, these cartels operate with such impunity. They don't care if they go into San Miguel Allende, if they go to Puerto Vallarta, if they go to Cancun. You know, nothing is off limits to these cartels because they, you know, basically, you know, have enough firepower to, you know, combat or, you know, wage war against the Mexican government. Mike Vigil joins us as a retired DEA agent, spent 13 years undercover in Mexico dealing with the Mexican cartel. Since El Mencho is gone, can we assume that there will be less drugs being shipped to America because of this? Does this do anything to the illegal drug trade? Not really. And the problem is, McGraw, that when you take out a cartel leader and you go back to 2006 to 2012, under the presidency of Felipe Calderon, he came up with a kingpin strategy. He said, okay, I'm going to go after the leaders of the cartels. And he did a good job. He captured and killed about 27 of 32. But what he didn't foresee is that that caused a splinter within the cartels where then all of a sudden you had a void, that void being the leader, and other individuals that wanted to take control of the cartel, and that would lead to civil wars within the cartel, and that has caused a lot of deaths. Take, for example, the Sinaloa cartel with the capture and the kidnapping of Ishmael Mayo Zambada, the cartel went to war internally. The two sons of Chapo Guzman, Iván Archivaldo and Jesús Alfredo, are now in a war with El Mencho's son. And that has caused about 3,000 deaths, about 2,500 disappearances. and the state of Sinaloa has lost about a billion dollars in revenue. So by being successful in going after the heads of the Mexican cartel, all the Mexican government did was create more chaos. Initially, yes. And is it going to stop the flow of drugs coming into the United States? No. because what we have to do here, and we have to do our part, we have to diminish the demand and the consumption for drugs. It's the basic law of economics. If you don't have consumption, you're not going to have the cartels. So we need to do a better job here. The other thing that we have to do, McGraw, is we need to stop the flow of U.S. weapons into Mexico because a lot of these weapons, and we're talking about 300,000 a year, a lot of these military-grade weapons go into the hands of the cartels. So the key question here is why are we arming the people that we allegedly are fighting? And the issue is that, you know, everybody has to do their part. We can't be pointing fingers at Mexico and not doing anything in the United States. Hold that thought, Mike Vigil. We'll pick up on that in just a moment. Mike Vigil is a retired DEA agent, spent 13 years undercover. And, yes, part of a lot of his real-life events were depicted in Narcos, Mexico. America at Night, back in a moment. Live from coast to coast, this is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. welcome to america at night with mcgraw millhaven our guest has been a retired dea agent for 31 years he spent roughly 20 of those years working undercover in mexico and Colombia with direct knowledge infiltrating the Mexican and the Colombian drug cartels. His work spanned 31 years as a drug enforcement agent. His name is Mike Vigil. Mike, you were talking before we broke about the guns and that you said that the Mexican cartel is getting their guns from the United States. I thought the Mexican cartel had like military assets, not just guns. Where are they getting these military assets? And dig deeper into what you mean by getting the guns from America. Well, here in the United States, we have about 80,000 registered gun owners. That's more than Wendy's, McDonald's, Burger King, and Subway combined. There's about 300,000 weapons that flow into Mexico. A lot of those are military-grade weapons, hand grenades and things of that nature that are stolen from military arsenals. For example, there is a plant that manufactures munitions in Missouri. I'm talking specifically about .50 caliber bullets, and a lot of those bullets are going into Mexico, into the hands of the cartels. Here's a very interesting fact that most people don't know, is that Mexico only has one gun store in the entire country. That is on a military base managed by the Mexican Army, and they only sell approximately 6,500 weapons annually. They're low-caliber weapons primarily used for hunting, and they have very stringent requirements if people want to buy guns. So the weapons that are supplying the cartels are coming from the United States. Let me give you another interesting fact is that American weapons have inundated all of Latin America and the Caribbean. When you take a look at their populations, they comprise about 8% of the world's total population. And because of U.S. weapons, this area commits 24% of all homicides in the world. That gives you an idea of the damage U.S. weapons are basically conducting in these areas. Are they buying these guns legally in America and transporting them to Mexico? or are there illegal gun runners buying them here and then selling them off to the Mexican cartel? Yes, they use straw purchasers, people that go in and they buy the weapons, and then they smuggle them into Mexico. And it's a business. A lot of people will buy them for the cartels, and they'll buy them for a certain price, and then they'll sell them to the cartels for a double, maybe even triple the price. It's a huge moneymaker. And when you take a look at the cartels, we're not talking about, you know, invest handguns. You know, we're talking about, you know, 50 caliber machine guns. And, for example, the Jalisco New Generation Cartel operates very much like a paramilitary force. and they have units that dress up like soldiers. They have military helmets. And then they take these trucks and they cut out two-inch steel plates that they wrap around the trucks and literally convert them to rustic military tanks. And then they mount the 50-caliber machine guns on top. and they travel in convoys. They'll go into cities, they'll go into towns, and a lot of the police departments there are under-trained, they're under-manned, they don't have the weapons that the cartels have, so they really can't take any action and they hunker down in place. So we now have a new wonder woman, a new wonder woman in Mexico, and her name is President Claudia Scheinbaum that is taking the battle to the cartels. She, during their first year as president, they seized 134 metric tons of drugs. They destroyed 644 synthetic drug laboratories. I'm talking about fentanyl, methamphetamine. And she did reduce violence by 22%. But I cannot, you know, we have to expect that if the Jalisco New Generation Quartel fragments, that's going to be a lot of violence. And then combined with the violence that's taking place with the Sinaloa Quartel, Mexico is going to have problems. But one of the things that I have recommended to Mexico is that with the death of El Mencho, you know, it's weakened the Jalisco Regeneration Cartel at least for the immediate timeframe. And apart from that, everybody in Mexico thought El Mencho was invincible, that he was never going to be captured or killed. So now with his death, it is having a psychological impact on the entire cartel. The narco blockades that they initiated in different states, it was, you know, in retaliation for his death. But more importantly, it was sending a message to the Mexican government that we are still here. We're still powerful. And sending a message to rival cartels that, you know, don't tread on us. We will demolish you. We are still powerful. So that was a message that they were sending. And El Mencho, you know, people always talk about Pablo Escobar, and you recall, you know, the killings, the car bombing, you know, and all of that happened when I was in Colombia. But El Mencho is more powerful than Pablo Escobar ever was. Pablo Escobar only managed cocaine. He only distributed and handled cocaine. And Mencho, on the other hand, deals with heroin. He deals with cocaine, but also synthetic drugs, fentanyl and methamphetamine. Now, the Mexican cartels are looking at going more and more and more into synthetic drugs. Why? Because plant-based drugs like coca plants, like opium poppy plants that produce opium and heroin and marijuana, Marijuana, if the government, you know, for example, in the producing countries, eradicate them, then they have to wait until the next growing cycle, which can take about three months. With synthetic drugs, they can produce those 24-7. And they, yes. Yeah, no, I hate to cut you off. I'm out of time. Mike Vigil is our guest. He's a retired DEA agent. I got 8,000 more questions, but we are out of time. Mike spent years undercover with the Mexican cartel. Fascinating stories. Can we have you back on the show in the near future to continue this conversation? Sure. It would be my pleasure, and thank you so much for having me. You got it. Mike Vigil joins us. DEA agent retired, telling some unbelievable stories from the front line. He lived it. He was there. He was undercover. We'll get them back here shortly. I don't think this story is going away anytime soon with what happened over the weekend in Mexico. Stay right there. We're going to talk to the head, former head of the World Bank. Tariffs are on the topics. What's going on with tariffs and where we go from here? That's all straight ahead. America at Night. Back in a moment. This is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. We'll be right back. Righteous Media Five Eyes. Independence, integrity, information, inspiration, and impact. Join the movement Independent Americans from Believe. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. This is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. He's fast becoming our go-to guy when we're talking the economy the former executive director of the World Bank. He's also with TPG Growth and the Rise Fund. Matthew McGuire joins us for a couple of minutes. Matthew, good morning, good evening, I guess. Welcome to America at Night. Nice to be here, McGuire. How are you? Good. Thanks for checking in again. Let's first start with some technical blocking and tackling. When the Supreme Court announced that the tariffs that Trump enacted are unconstitutional, Did they automatically come off that same day? And where are we in terms of tariffs right now? Well, a couple of things on that one. First of all, the Supreme Court decision was really straightforward in saying that the executive branch can't impose taxes and tariffs are an import tax. Right. American businesses have paid those taxes over the last year. And so the decision was a pretty straightforward one. And so, yes, they no longer can enforce those tariffs. Now, what President Trump did a day or two later was impose through a different authority tariffs that can last 150 days. So while he wasn't able to utilize the ones that he instituted last year, he now for 150 days is going to have this blanket 15 percent tariff on all countries that export into the U.S., really on the companies that do that importing. But unless Congress validates that and passes a law, in 150 days those go away. Can he then put them on again after 150 days? No, that will need to be an act of Congress to do that. So that's the real question is where is Congress going to land on all this? I think it's clear that the tariffs have really not worked in any way. Remember, the tariffs are supposed to do a couple of things for us, supposed to reduce our deficit. Well, actually, our deficit in goods is now larger this year than it was a year ago, so it didn't do that. It was supposed to constrain China. Well, China actually exported more this past year than they ever have before, so that didn't work. And then remember, it was going to create all these manufacturing jobs in the U.S. Well, we've lost about 80,000 manufacturing jobs. And then, of course, the economy was much slower, much slower growth in 2025 than it was in 2024, so it didn't supercharge growth. So Congress, I think, was not going to be excited about keeping this going. Most in Congress, I think, are realizing tariffs have just been a horrible economic move for the country. What about the tariff refunds? How in the world would that ever happen? It could be very simple in the sense that customs essentially sends a company a bill when they import something, and then those companies pay it. now. As we know, most companies pay digitally, electronically. So you have the account that it came from. You have how much came in. It'd be pretty easy for us just to send it right back and refund people that money the same way when you file your taxes electronically, you get the refund back pretty quickly if you want to electronically. So it shouldn't be hard. It sounds as though the administration is going to make people sue to try and get the money back, but we just don't know. We haven't really seen action there yet because technically with the Supreme Court did was send that question back to lower courts who are having to decide how is it that businesses can recover what they had to pay the U.S. government when they imported. Matthew McGuire with us, former executive director of the World Bank. Let's talk about the software sell-off recently and the sell-off in tech because people were afraid of AI. Explain that to us. So essentially the fear is, you see these new types of AI tools that come out. And so, for example, there's one called Claude Code. Claude is something that a company called Anthropic has been developing. And this AI coding tool is incredibly good. They're using it for all kinds of things. And so a lot of coders may well be out of jobs. But then the other question is, so if that's the case on the coding, software companies that create new software through creating interesting code, they may start to get hammered if AI can now create the software directly. If I own a company, I don't need to go buy some new fancy software. I can create it myself through Claude Code. And so the fear was that all the software companies are going to get really hammered and go away. I think a lot of that's overblown. We don't know. This is really people speculating on where the world could be heading. I think it's just too early to say, but certainly the markets reacted pretty strongly. I don't know if you saw tonight Block announced, Square announced, right? Tim Dorsey announced that they're laying off 40 percent of their workforce because they're going to use AI more. I thought that was kind of shocking. That was. Now, that one, I think, is actually a company saying, wait a second, we really can do as much work with fewer people. Right now, we see a lot of larger companies that are blaming cuts on AI, and I'm not buying it. So, for example, you might have seen that Amazon is laying off 16,000 people. I know some people have been laid off. They're not being replaced by AI. And so I think it varies. But, yes, this one for Block is interesting because that's a high-technology company. And so certainly in the tech space, there may be fewer jobs there in the years ahead. Let's talk about foreign policy because foreign policy and the world economy. The United States is saber-rattling when it comes to Iran. Now you've got some saber-rattling when it comes to Cuba. You have some things going on in Mexico, the 13th, 14th largest economy in the world. Take me through the world economy and how you see maybe a war with Iran or at least airstrikes with Iran. How do you see that affecting the markets going forward? It would certainly unsettle the markets for a couple of reasons. One, because it will increase oil prices, about 20 percent of oil travels through the Strait of Hormuz, which is right by Iran. And Iran's been pretty clear they will disrupt traffic going through there. It used to actually be a lot more. It heads up to the Suez Canal and a lot of oil will go that way. Because Iran and pirates that have been there for a while have been causing trouble, less oil goes through it than it used to. But still, 20 percent of the world's oil supply getting impacted will certainly spike oil prices. And that, of course, has knock-on effects. More broadly, I think the question that may unsettle the markets is why? What's going on here? Iran hasn't threatened the U.S. in who knows how long. Countries that are threatening the U.S. are ones like Russia, attacking Ukraine and really upsetting our allies in NATO. That's the real issue. And then remember, North Korea already has nuclear weapons, and they've been pretty clearly saying they are trying to create missiles that can reach the U.S. So very clear they're a threat. There's a lot of head-scratching from people I talk to around the world who say, why Iran? Why are you going after Iran when you have real issues with Russia and, to a lesser extent, North Korea? Well, the other question with Iran is what is the goal? What's the strategy? What do they want to do? Do they want regime change? Do they want to do away with their nuclear enrichment capabilities? How would they know? They supposedly did that already last year. So what's the goal of going into Iran? Well, that's right. And remember, you know, this question about them trying to get nuclear weapons. Our intelligence agency, the CIA, has assessed that they've not been trying to do that. And remember, before we bombed Iran last June, Tulsi Gabbard, our director of national intelligence, said that to Congress. She said they're not trying to build a bomb. And so, yes, it's very confusing. If our assessment is we're not trying to build a bomb, why are we so focused on going in and bombing it? Clearly, Netanyahu in Israel has wanted this to happen for a long time. Are we just doing his bidding now? It's a really important question. And, you know, the other thing I think we have to keep in mind is let's say it is regime change that we really want, even though we haven't said it out loud. Well, you knock off the Ayatollah, guess who's going to be in charge? The Revolutionary Guards, the military. And if we don't like having a cleric who may be a zealot in charge, I think we're really not going to like having the Iranian military in charge. And so, you know, it's not just what is our goal, but it's what is the plan for the day after, should we actually achieve one of these goals. Right, and do we have the power to put in our own Shah of Iran, even if it is the son of the Shah of Iran? And we all know that every time we not every time, but seems like oftentimes when we meddle in the Middle East, the unintended consequences ends up things being worse than what we before. That's right. And remember that in Iran, you know, the Shah's son hasn't lived in Iran in decades. The same way that remember in Iraq we were supporting Chalabi, the Bush administration was he hadn't lived there in decades. There's a real danger of just trying to parachute someone back in that we think is the guy or the gal because they have to win over their country. Iran's a country of 90 million people with a long and proud history and very sophisticated scientists and universities and a developed commerce system was a great trading partner for a lot of countries in the region you don just walk back in there and say you know the U wants me here and automatically get credibility to be able to run the place Talk about the sanctions, sanctions on Iran and sanctions on Russia. How is that destroying not necessarily the leaders but the rank-and-file citizens in those countries? There's no question. The sanctions in Iran really have been quite effective in crippling the Iranian economy. That's a big reason why you've seen so many protests there recently, because life is just incredibly hard. It has been for several years now. So those are actually working. Again, I think the question is, what are we trying to accomplish with them? And at what point do we say, all right, we've gotten them to change their behavior? We probably need some clear guidelines for what it is that we think they have to do differently. And we've got to be able to articulate them, not just to the Iranians, but all of our allies and others in the region as well. But it seems like the sanctions are hurting the innocent people we're trying to, quote unquote, protect the leaders who are the bad guys. They're still living high on the hog. They're not being affected by the sanctions. It's the working people in Iran who are suffering the consequences. Absolutely. That's absolutely right. And even, you know, people, doctors who are trying to work in hospitals, you know, they don't have what they need, the supplies and so on. So it's absolutely, yes, it's the regular people. The leaders always seem to be okay, right? They're squirreling money out one way or the other. They already have offshore bank accounts, and so they're going to be okay. You're absolutely right. It's the ordinary people. And that's very true in Russia as well. Now, you know, the other piece of the war in Ukraine is Russia is just conscripting men and sending them over there. They're dying by the tens of thousands. I mean, there have been hundreds of thousands of Russian men who have died in the Ukraine over the last couple of years. And think about what that does to the economy. You know, Russia's economy has been weak for a long time. You know, we don't talk about it here, but their interest rates are 20 percent or so. I think their central bank just lowered from 19 down to 16. But those are very high interest rates. And, you know, I always ask people, name me a great Russian company. You can't, right? They do natural resources, oil and gas, nickel and a few other things, but it's not a good economy. It just has a huge military. They're spending more and more money on the military, and that's what you can do when you have one authoritarian leader making the decisions. So you have to really feel for the Russians. And the final thing I'll say is, yes, the wealthy Russians, they've moved to Dubai. Their money is offshore already. They're not back home suffering with everyone else. Matthew McGuire with us, former executive director of the World Bank, for a couple more minutes. Ukraine, a lot of people didn't know about Ukraine, but it was a very forward-thinking economy. It was a breadbasket, if you will. They had a whole lot of manufacturing. They were going great guns four years ago. And then this has very much devastated their whole country. That's right. And they really were getting a lot of support, again, from our European allies who wanted to see them thrive. They've had a serious corruption problem for many, many years. When I was at the Commerce Department 10-some years ago, we used to really talk about that and think about how we could get them to have a more independent judiciary and so on. So things weren't perfect there, but, yes, they were getting a lot of support. They have an incredible agricultural sector, as you said, that was exporting and bringing in money. They were advancing their manufacturing. There was real hope for where Ukraine was headed, but now it's just been crippled and crushed. Their spirit is still strong by all accounts, but it's been devastating what's going on there, and it's going to take a long time. Even if Russia were to leave tomorrow, it's going to take a long time for them to rebuild and get back to where they were. I want to finish with the American farmer, and I never want to forget about the American farmer. Since this tariff, I know it's a recent decision with the tariffs and on again, off again, whatever. Is China living up to their agreement of buying the soybeans they said were going to buy? And it seems like the farmer, the plight of the American farmer is in dire straits. Very dire straits. China has been buying. But remember, because that agreement came so late in the crop season, they actually only pledged to buy about half of what they normally buy this year. Next year, they're saying they'll go back up to previous levels and buy even more. But it's been very, very hard. And, you know, this is the problem in the first Trump administration. We used to sell a lot more to China. We lost that share, largely to Brazil, and we never got it back. So we're operating in a lower base, and now it's been lowered even more. So we'll see, but China has been quite the negotiator, and it's not just rare earth. It's been, to your point, soybean farmers who are getting hammered. And my worry, of course, is when they decide to use that lever again, they have no problems doing it, which is why we really, for the good of the farmers, for the good of the manufacturing sector, for small businesses, we really just have to stop these tariffs and find a new way to affect our economy. Look into your crystal ball. Everyone says it's all about the jobs going forward, whether or not we end up in a recession in the near future. What are your thoughts if you look into your crystal ball for the U.S. economy going forward? I think it is all about the jobs, and you're seeing that consumer confidence has been sinking for quite a while as well. But I think about it in terms of individual families as opposed to the country as a whole. If I lose my job, my family is in a recession already. And that's the problem is it's been so hard to find new jobs that people are stuck in jobs they don't like. Remember, we had 1.4 million jobs created in 2024. This past year in 2025, we only had 180,000, and 80% of them were in health care. So if you're not in health care, it's hard to see how you can get a new job even if you have one right now. And that has a real negative effect on individual families and the economy as a whole. Matthew McGuire, U.S. Executive Director, former Executive Director of the World Bank. He's with TPG Growth and the Rise Fund. Matthew McGuire, thanks for checking in. As always, we appreciate your time. Have a good night. Thanks so much. Take care. You got it. All right. We'll take a couple text messages on the other side of the break. 1-844-2-MGRAW, 1-844-262-4729. Next hour, we've got a jam-packed hour next hour as well because we're going to talk to, did you see the story about the family who lives a couple of blocks away from Nancy Guthrie? The Internet sleuths decided that they were hiding Nancy Guthrie. and there was a fifth grade teacher and his wife were hiding in their bedroom from the dozens of people who were chanting outside their home. They were so afraid they had to call the cops. They were so afraid they couldn't pick up their six-year-old son from their grandmother because the Internet mob was convinced they had some information leading to Nancy Guthrie. completely made up, completely not true, but that didn't matter to the Internet mob. We're going to come back next hour and talk to somebody who understands the history of an online mob and what it all means and where do we go from here. Plus, it's Thursday night. We'll check in with Bill Clevelin with Bill on the road. Stay right there. America at Night, back in a moment. Live from coast to coast, this is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. Join the nightly conversation, America at Night, with McGraw-Milhaven. Hey, want to join the show? Text us, 1-844-2-MGRAW, 1-844-262-4729. When you do, we will send you a link. You sign up for our nightly menu, and then each and every night we have a show, we'll send you what's coming up on the night. It's a great way to sort of keep in touch with the show, what we've got going on, guests, future guests, and it's a chance to stay up on all the latest with the show. It's very simple, 1-844-2-MGRAW, 1-844-262-4729. As we build the show, of course, we'll add all sorts of promos and benefits and discounts and things like that on stuff. But it's a chance to sort of build our community. So text us. Text a comment. But if you just want the link, say, hey, text me the link, 1-844-2-MGRAW, and then sign up for the daily menu. Our executive director is Alex Hinton. Our engineer tonight is Richard Good. Stay right there. We are just getting started. Lots more to get to. This is America at Night on Westwood One. Westwood One presents America at Night. Here's your host, McGraw-Millhaven. There is a family that lives down the street from Nancy Guthrie. His name is Dominic Evans. He's 48 years old. He's an elementary school teacher, and his wife lived there. And they were cowering in their homes the other night because of a pack of Internet trolls, for lack of a better word, were convinced that they were somehow involved in the Nancy Guthrie abduction. His only connection to the family is that he plays in a band with Nancy Guthrie's son-in-law. The sheriff has said this man is going through hell and it's horrible. He also went on to say, I don't know what to tell him, except he probably should be speaking to some attorneys and sue some of these people for libel. He also went on to say, I wish I could jump out and defend every single one of them that's being falsely accused. Dominic Evans and his family are saying they are going through a nightmare because the Internet is convinced they're somehow involved. They've already spoken to the police. They've already said everything they need to say. They don't know anything else. The police haven't alleged any wrongdoing, but yet they still have to fight off the Internet mob. To talk about this is Dr. John Beck. He's a professor of history at Western New England University and, oddly enough, is an expert on vigilantism and mob mentality. Professor Black, welcome to America at Night. Thanks for having me as a guest, McGraw. I'm not going to call myself exactly an expert on this as much as an expert in how things like mobs and how vigilantism is a part of our popular culture. So I want to definitely defer to anyone out there, the people who have done the hard work, have gotten their criminal justice degrees and such. But I am someone who understands how this intersects with how we see our country, how we see ourselves, and this is a global issue. Mobs have been around as long as human beings. Well, I want to start there. Sure, I want to start there. Certainly we don't want the mob outside your house complaining that what you were misinterpreted on the radio. So we appreciate the correction. I live in Westwood One Studios. So it's interesting in that the Internet mobs, you're saying, is not a new phenomenon. This has been around. This is part of our DNA? Oh, yes. Human beings are part of a community. Human beings have a tribal instinct. And when we feel threatened as a group, when we feel threatened individually, we act. And violence is part of our behavior. It's a way that we, to put it crudely, instill justice. Long before there was government, there were human beings who clearly did terrible things to other human beings. And you can find them. You can find ancient skulls that are caved in in the back. This clearly seems to be the act of a group dealing with one of their own. And not just one person, but multiple people. So mobs are built into our DNA, but that's why we have history. That's why we have government. That's why we have politics. And the idea is that for a society that functions, there has to be a quote-unquote monopoly of violence that is held by the authorities, that we have to give violence over to our police, to our military, to our elected officials, to our representatives. And if we don't allow our representatives to do this, then it's about the mob. And there have been so many times in the history of the world and so many times in the history of our nation where mobs have taken justice into their own hands. Often, and the real darkness and tragedy of all this is how often it's about things like race or gender or religion. if you think about the history of Jews in Europe, these pogroms. These are mob violence where individuals acting on their own or sometimes at the prodding of others take justice into their own hands and kill people because they feel they need to do this. I think, I hope, I pray that we are not talking about anything like this with the Guthrie case. I don't think this is something that is tied to politics, race, religion, or anything. But we certainly have a case of where a lot of Americans are fascinated, a lot of Americans are frustrated, and more than a few Americans decide that they must take action on their own, using their terminals, using their iPads, using their phones. Some of them perhaps are just trolls causing mischief, but I think some of them think that they are heroes. I think some of them think that they are justice fighters. Well, and also they've sort of been deputized in a sense by the officials, right? When they're asking, has anybody seen this man, right? So in a sense they've been asked to participate in the ongoing investigation. Yeah, and on one level, this is something that we have seen in the entire 20th and 21st century. Have you seen FBI's most wanted? Have you seen this bank robber? That the public's eyes help support the interests of justice. But the idea is, if you've seen them, please call us. If you have seen them, please call your local FBI agent, your local police officer. Please don't take justice into your own hands for so very many reasons. When they put out those recordings and a lot of people jump online and they're thinking to themselves, I can be part of the solution. because the police are clearly not able to get this done, and the FBI is not able to get this done. And how many podcasts, how many Americans are either creating or listening to the idea that a regular American who is devoted enough can do the research, and that word research is very loaded, can do the research and bring about justice? We are living in a time where people do not trust anyone or anything, but they do trust what they can research themselves. And somehow that has replaced the idea of a state that is functional of law enforcement, that is functional of justice. Well, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. Because I agree with you they don't trust anything. But that's not necessarily true. They don't trust the evening news. They don't trust their local newspaper. They don't trust the journalist who went to school who's been doing it for years. But they trust, you know, EdSchwartz1592 at gmail.com. They trust Ed Schwartz because when they research this, it turns out that Ed Schwartz was also researching this. Now, there's a terrible irony to all of this, that this woman who was kidnapped, this woman who may not even be alive anymore, that her daughter's fame, her daughter's fame as a journalist, her daughter's fame as someone that so many Americans know, we don't really know her, but we know of her, that this person whose career has been about journalism, has been about justice, has been about the news, that she has been rendered so helpless and so lost. To see this woman who so many Americans see smiling, who so many Americans might remember as being a political correspondent, who some Americans might remember when she was a young journalist, because she has a journalistic degree, that she is lost and she is helpless. And I think that a lot of people are trying to ride to the rescue. And if they happen to find someone online who has the same theories or they're on the same corner of the Internet, then they are joining up. They are Avengers together. And it is staggering what people will find if they go down enough rabbit holes. Rather than listening to law enforcement say, this poor man, his only crime is being in a band at his age. This is an elementary school teacher. I mean, do we have many more saints left in American life? He's an elementary school teacher. And to accuse him of anything except sacrificing his earning potential to work with young people, I mean, that's the crime. But, yes, for the rest of his life, people will be following him, sending him messages. He could change his name, change his face. Someone will find his eyes, unless he has an eye transplant, apparently. And it's terrifying the idea that people think that they can find it. I'm pretty sure the FBI has made this one of their priorities, and they have a lot of resources. But sometimes people are just stuck. I mean, I hope, we all hope that this is someday solved. But what if the person, the people who did this, don't have any sort of record, any sort of profile? Of course it's going to be hard to find them. Yeah. And it's just the feeling of helplessness in all of this. So some people, they want to act. I certainly understand it. But when I read this article, I just, you know, we've seen enough rogue people do terrible things, violence to political leaders and all throughout. But it seems to be increasing exponentially. And the Internet puts these people together in a room. They can now find each other. then they're going to meet up and let's go knock down this guy's door. But again, I want to go back with the couple minutes we have left with the facts. When you confront them with the facts, when the sheriff says, look, leave this guy alone, they don't believe the sheriff. They only believe the person who will foster their imagination or foster their already preconceived notion. Yeah. And because the person that they are talking to, and it might not even be a real person, this might be a Russian bot, the person they are talking to, they are talking to. They feel like they're having a conversation. They feel like they're having a relationship. The terrible thing about an online mob is that it offers community for people. It offers community for people who sometimes feel lost and marginalized. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with this, and I'm not sure how many of the audience who's familiar with this story because it's something that trends more for the younger people. But there was something back in 2014 or so called Gamergate. It had to do with video game makers, video game designers, and it had to do with the real first online mob and the power of strangers to get other people involved, to make them feel like we are part of something. And they don't think of themselves as a mob. They think of themselves as a community, as a group of people fighting for justice. And I'm going to put aside the details of this, but it started with video games, and it turned into death threats and people having to go into hiding. This poor man, this poor elementary school teacher is just the most famous, latest example of how many people who have been randomly or arbitrarily picked out. Mostly, we're going to have to assume unfairly. But once you get tarnished on the Internet, how can you ever clean that up? Yeah, no, it's a great point. This is going to follow him and his family forever. I've got about two minutes left. What's the difference between vigilantism and virtue signaling? Talk about that for a second. Well, it depends in some cases on the perspective. If you think that going after this terrible person, not a real terrible person, that is your way of showing that you care, that you're on the side of justice, that you're on the side of an 80-plus-year-old woman who needs assistance, who is living alone. Maybe you are trying to signal to the people around you that you care. Maybe you post something on Facebook. Maybe you put a tweet out there. Or maybe you are joining one of these online mobs. You are trying to say that you are one of the elect. You are one of the good people. A vigilante is simply going to the next degree of actually taking more direct action. You don't just post something on Facebook. You go ahead and do something like put that person's information out there, knowing full well that that could lead to anything. So, vigilantism is you need to inflict justice, not just announce you're on the side of the angels, but you become the avenging angel. You are not just signaling something, you are bringing dark wings into the story. They can be the same person. Yeah, well, I mean, we've seen this, right? Everything from this current case to Pizzagate, where the poor man was convinced Hillary Clinton was hiding a sex ring in a pizza joint in Washington, D.C., to the whole Ivermictin controversy during COVID, where they had people taking horse medicine. I mean, it's dangerous. This is so crucial to remember that so many people think that they're on the side of the angels, that they're on the side of truth. That man with that weapon going into a pizza place in D.C. that somehow probably started as a joke. This took a life on of its own, and he believed it was true. He believed he was saving people. And there have been many mobs where the people believed. You remember the story of Tulsa, Oklahoma, the idea that this, some people call it a race mob. It was a problem. It was a race massacre. But allegedly it started because a black man assaulted a white woman, when in reality it was a festering, stewing cauldron where one group did not like the success of another. And that mob was just looking for a moment. John, I've got to go. John Back, who is a professor of history at Western New England University. We never have enough time. There was the bell. We have to get to our next class. Professor, thank you very much for joining us. Good stuff. Thanks for checking in. Thanks, sir, for having me as a guest. You got it. Professor John Back, who is a professor of history at Western New England University. America at Night. Back in a moment. America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven, where the nation comes to talk. He was pretty good, too. This is America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven. Hey, got some big news late tonight. Netflix said that it was going to back away from its deal to acquire Warner Brothers, and they are going to leave it to Paramount to buy Warner Brothers. Netflix had an $83 billion deal on the table back in December, and they had won the business. They were going to buy Warner Brothers, Discovery, including HBO and the Warner Brothers Movie Studio. The acquisition would have been a game changer. And then Paramount comes in, loses the bid, has a chance to rebid again, ultimately bid $111 billion. And Warner Brothers gave Netflix four days to respond, and Netflix said, never mind, we're out. And they have a great quote here from the Netflix people. They said this transaction was always a nice-to-have at the right price, not a must-have at any price. So says Netflix and their co-executive chief executive. So Netflix is out. Paramount is in. What does that mean? Paramount now is going to own HBO, Warner Brothers, CNN, a discovery, $111 billion. It still needs regulatory approval in the U.S. and Europe, including the Justice Department with the Antitrust Division. I don't know how hard that would be considering President Trump seems to be on board with this, and he seems to be running the Justice Department these days. If they're unable to get the deal, Netflix could be back in. But for now, it looks like this is a major, major, major stunning move that Paramount is buying Warner Brothers for $111 billion. This is how we watch TV. This is how we get our news. This is how we watch movies. This is a game changer. We'll be talking about this in the next couple of days as well as we see how all this shakes out. Stay right there. Bill on the road. Bill Clevelin checks in somewhere on the road. I think it's a little Johnny Cash tonight. And it's Thursday night with Bill on the Road. Stay right there. America at Night. Back in a moment. Coming to you from the heart of the nation, this is America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven. Join the nightly conversation, America at Night, with McGraw-Milhaven. All right, every Thursday night, I love Thursday nights for all sorts of reasons, but tonight we going to check in with Bill Clevelin Bill on the road he a roving America at Night correspondent I guess is the official term for you Bill We still haven given you a title yet have we Yeah, that's what I have on the office door. It's a little hard to fit that all across the plaque there. Yeah, something like that. Well, for those who are just joining us, we've been following you as you got locked out of your hotel room somewhere in California. And then last week you were broadcasting from an Airbnb from some guy's bedroom. He was downstairs making dinner, and you were upstairs on the radio. Now, wait a minute. Hold on a second here. Let's just, you know, let's not start any rumors. But, yeah, no. All right. Well, you want to go rogue tonight because in honor of Johnny Cash? Yeah, absolutely. In case you're wondering, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. Tonight I have a book signing here. So it was 92 degrees here today. So how about that? Hold on a second. Where was the book signing in Phoenix? It was in what I would call a suburb called Sun City. It's a huge retirement community. And the lady, you know, God love her, that introduced me on stage yesterday, she kept calling me Bill Cleveland. We're so honored to have Mr. Cleveland here today. And maybe you'll remember Mr. Cleveland's first book that he came out, and on and on. I'm a nice guy. So I could not, in front of 200 people, get up and go, excuse me, ma'am, it's Cleveland. It's Cleveland. So I was Bill Cleveland for the day yesterday. Fantastic. Shout out to Sun City. Yeah, I know Sun City very well. That's on the other side of the valley. My sister lives in Scottsdale, so I know the valley relatively well. All right, good. All right, so you're in Phoenix. And let's talk Johnny Cash. Yeah, okay. Let's talk Johnny Cash, though, because why? It's his birthday today? Yeah, Johnny Cash. He would have been 94 years old today. I'm a huge Johnny Cash fan. I became a fan later in life, but I really like Johnny Cash, and I've been to, I guess, pretty much all of the Johnny Cash sites across the country. I thought I'd share a few of them with you and the listeners tonight for folks who might be a fan. And so you probably know he was born in Kingsland, Arkansas. You know, the birthplace is no longer there. They got a little little plaque where the home would have been. But what is around is the boyhood home of Johnny Cash. And it's in a town called Dias, Arkansas. And it's a pretty cool story. So the home has always been there as part of the FDR's New Deal. So families could get a house and some farming land that they would work on. and if you've ever seen the movie Walk the Line which is just a phenomenal movie and a bio of Johnny Cash you've seen a replica of that home some of the early part of the movie is kind of based around his time in that colony and in that house and so it's still there and people would come by for years and years and they would see this house and it was just dilapidated and in such horrible shape and people thought oh Johnny Cash lives in this horrible, poor little area and everything. But what really, the house was actually really nice and it just had kind of fallen into disrepair. So Arkansas State University came in, they bought the property, they spent a lot of money. In fact, I believe the number was like $100,000 in concrete alone because the home was sinking. So they raised the house back up, put it back the way that it was when Johnny Cash lived there. And then I think it was 2009, 2010, they opened it up for people to go through and tour. And so it's about, I don't know, I want to say five, six miles off of Interstate 55 before you get down to Memphis. And you're on this unpaved dirt road that takes you there to this house. And, boy, you really feel like you're back in that movie Walk the Line because they show that scenery, right? and a tiny little house, but you go into his bedroom. They've got actually a piano that the Cash family owned. It's really, really neat. And if you're going down to Memphis, I would absolutely suggest that be one of the stops that you make. Do you just show up at the door? Do you have to go and buy tickets? How does that work? So there is what you would call like a visitor center. So, you know, they had this. It was a colony. They called it a colony. Again, it was part of this New Deal program. And so there were a bunch of homes at one time. There aren't very many left anymore. And so there's a little visitor center. And, yeah, you'll get a ticket. And then they do tours all throughout the year several times a day. You can check that out. So that's a neat one. You're like me, man. Going and visiting people's boyhood homes, I don't know why. I don't know if everyone's that way. I don't know if we're just weird. but I find that the most fascinating thing in the world, to go visit some famous person's home. I don't know why that's so interesting, but to me, I'm with you. That's a stop along the trail for sure. No, absolutely. So I wrote a travel book called Finding the American Dream a few years ago. I think it came out in 2020. And that particular book was inspired by my visit to the Johnny Cash home Because, like you mentioned, when you're standing in a childhood home or a birthplace of someone and you know how far they made it in life, it's pretty cool to be like, wow, they came from here. And to me, it just kind of reiterates this whole American dream thing where it doesn't matter where you come from. And Johnny Cash obviously proved to work hard. Yeah, you need a little bit of luck along the way. But, yeah, it was just a really neat experience. I'll never forget going there. And then we mentioned Memphis, Sun Studio. You can tour Sun Studio. That, of course, is where Cash was discovered by Sam Phillips after he left the Air Force. That's a must do. I posted a picture online earlier today of Johnny Cash's home in Hendersonville, Tennessee. So that house is no longer there. I don't know if you know that there's a plaque out front and there's like the guard gate is still there. But it's really sad. This was also a home that was featured in that movie, Walk the Line. And it burnt down shortly after the Cash family had sold it to Barry Gibb of the Bee Gees. And they were doing some construction work on it. And I believe, don't quote me on this, but I believe it was like somebody left a cigarette or something around. And the whole house went up in flames. And so the house is no longer there, which is really kind of sad because it was a really cool home. and it overlooked the water and a lot of history there. And so that's no longer there. However, there is a really cool property that is still around, and folks should absolutely go to this one. So it's in a town called Bon Aqua, Tennessee. And I'll tell you the shortened version of this story. So Johnny Cash had an accountant that was embezzling money from him. And with this money, that accountant purchased some property in Bon Aqua, Tennessee, which is, I guess it would be east of, excuse me, it would be west of Nashville, maybe an hour away from Nashville, if that. And it's called the Hideaway Farm. And so when Johnny Cash found out this guy was embezzling money from him, he learned of this property, and he loved it. And so he kept the property, and this is where he would go after, you know, just to get away from Nashville and just to get away from everything. It's a beautiful property. And I have to tell you, so I went to see this place about five years ago. I was on my way back to the St. Louis area, and I knew this place existed. It just opened to the public, but I was going to be a little bit late. And so I called the office there, the little museum office that they have, and I kind of begged and pleaded and pulled the old I'm a travel writer line. And I said, is there any way that you can just keep it open for another 30 minutes? I would be so grateful. And they were super nice, and they said, yeah, absolutely. So I get there. I check in at the little museum, and the lady says to me, she's like, okay, so you just go right down the street. It's just about a mile and a half. And when you get to the gates, text me and I'll open the gates for you. And I was like, cool. So you get down. You can obviously tell it was the Cash family place because it's got the music notes on the metal gate and everything. And so she opens the gate and I drive in. And I basically have, you know, I've got the place to myself. So I'm taking pictures. I'm walking around. I got, you know, my tripod out. I'm taking some photos of me on the front porch. You know, I'm just loving all of this. And I thought, I wonder if it's open. Like, can I go in? You know, so I pull on the front door and I open the front door and McGraw, there's like 15 people inside the house. And I said, oh, my God. And they all stop and they all look at me. And it was Johnny Cash's nephews. And I think one of his sisters were all in the house. And to their credit, they didn't shoot at me. And I said, oh, my God, I am so sorry. And I quickly explained who I was. And they were like, oh, no, no, no, no. Come on in. Come on in. So I go inside the house, and I'm hanging out with these people. And they could not have been nicer. They're like, hey, this was John's favorite leather chair. You've got to get a picture in the chair. So I'm sitting in Johnny Cash's favorite leather chair. They're taking pictures of me. And, you know, these were the nicest people. And I just thought, holy crap, I cannot believe. I just walked in on like a family meeting inside the Cash home. And I'll never forget. I will never, never forget that. But they were so nice. But it's a cool property, and you absolutely have to go and check that if you're a Johnny Cash fan. Okay, so you're allowed to go. They let you on the property. Were you allowed to go in the house normally, or was it a special night that it was closed or something? So normally, yes, normally they will do tours. You can go through the house. So normally the tours are organized. Somebody meets you down there. You go in with a group or whatever. And like I mentioned, it was after hours. And the Cash family will still use the property occasionally. And they'll do, like, songwriting events and other things there. And they just happen to be there getting ready for an event. And, you know, one of the sisters is upstairs sleeping. I mean, I'm telling you, I thought, oh, my God, it was embarrassing. But it turned out to be really a cool moment. Well, wouldn't you, I mean, you would expect that Johnny Cash's family, right, coming from Johnny Cash would be just so gracious, right? It's nice to hear they are. You would hope they would be, and it's nice to hear that they are, I guess. They were, yes, they were very gracious. And then one of his nephews is a musician, and he actually will play concerts at the little museum that kind of is, like I said, down the road from the house where people kind of check in. There's a little museum there and some other artifacts that belong to Johnny Cash. And so, yeah, he plays music, and they were just really nice. They were very nice people. Okay, so his boyhood home, Sun Studios, his ranch. Is there a museum too? Is there a Johnny Cash museum somewhere? Yep. Yep, downtown Nashville. There's the Johnny Cash Museum. Lots of great artifacts, cool videos, all sorts of things relating to Johnny Cash. His cemetery where he's laid to rest is in Hendersonville, Tennessee, not too far from where his home was. And then I just actually learned today, this is a place that I haven't been. So you know the song Folsom Prison Blues. I didn't realize that there's like a Johnny Cash trail that will take you by the Folsom Prison, which I guess is still a prison. It's in California, Folsom, California. So they've got like a trail with different statues and just different things dedicated to Johnny Cash. So lots of places to kind of hone in on your Johnny Cash history. You know, Johnny Cash, and I'm with you. I came to Johnny Cash lately. My mother, for some reason, was a huge Johnny Cash fan, and I think she was a fan for the same reason you and I are. It's the story of this man who struggled, right? He had a drug addiction, and he overcame it, and he never really forgot where he came from, and he sang to the common man, right? I mean, that's why he was so beloved by the people in the prison, because, right? But by the luck of the draw, he could have been in prison his whole life. Instead, he turned out to be a famous singer-songwriter. Yeah, and it's pretty interesting, too, because he, you know, if you know the history of how he got started in music, when he first went to meet with Sam Phillips at Sun Studio, he had these, you know, religious songs. And so Sam Phillips was like, you have a great voice, but you've got to go live life a little bit. You got to come back with some songs, some lyrics that, you know, have some real life in them. And so he kind of, you know, took some time to discover himself and to write some other songs. And that's kind of how he really became successful. And I'll tell you that Sun Studio is unbelievable if you've never been to Sun Studio. Of course, Elvis was discovered there. Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison did some stuff there. You got, we just mentioned Johnny Cash. And you walk into this little building, and it has not changed since the time Elvis was there. And I just remember the first time that I went, looking up at, like, you know, the ceiling tiles on the ceiling looked like they were about to fall down. Like, I mean, seriously, nothing has changed. But, man, what just a mecca for music fans and just this real sacred place for music, at least from the, you know, late 50s, early 60s. I didn't know you could go visit Sun Studio. Have you seen the Broadway show Million Dollar Quartet? Yeah. Yeah. That's what – it really happened where Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis, and I think Carl Perkins, yeah, all showed up at Sun Records on one night, and they were all in the same room and did a recording or showed up together at a soda or something, but they were all there at the same time. Yeah, right. It was during the holidays. They were there. And Sam Phillips and his brilliance decided to hit record. And they recorded everything that had happened. And so, yeah, they were gathered around the piano. And so if you've seen that musical, it's a true story. but when you're in that studio you'll stand at one of the microphones that they would have used when they were there and it's just I tell you what, when you hear an original Elvis Presley recording from his early days in Sun's studio over the speakers in that studio you will get goosebumps it is a real treat it's very cool Bill Clevelin, Bill on the road you had the book signing tonight give a plug for your book, where can we get it? Yeah, Amazon. Actually, I just found out today. I just cracked the Amazon Top 100 for presidential books today. So Amazon.com. Just look up presidential road trips and, yeah, help me move up the list. Yeah, and maybe some people from some city will go and try and find Bill Cleveland, but it's Bill Cleveland. Hey, you buy the book. I don't care what you call me. When are you going to Cleveland? Then you'd be Bill Clevelin in Cleveland. It's too late to get that complicated. Billontheroad.com. Bill Clevelin, good stuff tonight. Thanks for checking in. We'll let you get back on the road, and we'll check in with you next Thursday. Thanks, man. All right, man. See you. Bye. Yeah, good stuff. Yeah, Johnny Cash. Yeah, what a great story. I love, love, love those boyhood home tours. I could do that for the rest of my life all day long. Stay right there. America at Night. Back in a moment. Miss a portion of tonight's show? Not a problem. Go to AmericaAtNightLive.com to find a replay of every show. Thank you. All right, a little Johnny Cash for you on the way out the door for hour number two. Next hour, we're going to do open phones. People are already lining up. The text message is burning up, 1-844-2-MGRAW, 1-844-262-4729. And I have a story for you next hour. I'll get it in. I will definitely, I promise you I'll get it in. This is a story you will not want to miss. It is a story about, it's a baseball story. But it's a human interest story. And we got word tonight that the longtime Major League Baseball umpire Bruce Fremming passed away after a fall in his home in Wisconsin. He passed away, I believe, at the age of 87 years old. Bruce Fremming, one of the most unique, original, and longest-serving Major League umpires. I need to tell you my brush with Bruce Fremming. It's a doozy, and we'll tell it next hour. Our engineer tonight is Alex Hinton. Our engineer tonight is Richard Good. I'm McGraw-Millhaven. Stay right there. This is America at Night on Westwood One. Westwood One presents America at Night. Here's your host, McGraw-Millhaven. All right, let's start off the open phones. Not necessarily with an apology, but a clarification and a memorandum of understanding, if you will. For those who were listening last night, we got a phone call, I believe, from Ted from Washington State. And I was mentioning about Stephen Hawking and this picture that was released in the Epstein files with Stephen Hawking. And it's Stephen Hawking with the two women who are next to him who are blacked. Their faces are blacked out, and it was insinuated that Jeffrey Epstein was released in this batch of documents and pictures. And so this caller, I think Ted from Washington, called up and somehow eluded the fact that he's still not convinced that, and I'm paraphrasing here, he's still not convinced that Stephen Hawking wasn't involved in a more nefarious way with the Epstein Island and women and everything else. And we got into a little jawing match, if you will. And he was insinuating that, you know, there's no evidence. I kept saying there's no evidence that he is. He goes, well, you know, there's, you know, there's. So he sent me last night after the show a Newsweek article, and I did a little research, and, yeah, there was more than an innocent picture. Now, there's still no evidence that he did anything wrong, But there were documents that were released earlier in which there was an email from Epstein to Jelaine Maxwell suggesting that the attempt to cover up claims made by Virginia Giffrey, I believe is how you say her name, regarding Stephen Hawking and how they wanted to somehow cover up the fact that he was on the island. Now, some of those things have been discredited. Some of those things have not been. Throw it into the muck of we don't know what's true and what's not. No allegations of Stephen Hawking doing anything wrong. Family saying the whole thing's ridiculous. However, Ted stood his ground and there was more to the bone than I gave him credit for. Let's just put it that way. And there was a memorandum of understanding that I was more curt with him than I should have been. How about that? But still, there is no evidence. So there you go. There's my mea culpa for the night. I hope that's good enough for you, Ted. 18442 McGraw. And I hope your name was Ted, by the way. I'm pretty sure it was Ted from Washington State. 18442 McGraw. 18442624729. I still don't got that Bruce Freming story. We found out late tonight that Bruce Fremming, former longtime Major League umpire, passed away. He fell in his home and was a bit of a blow to the head. Ultimately passed away at the age of 87. One of the longest serving Major League umpires in the history of the game. And I have, in honor of Bruce Fremming, I have a story to tell you about him. But first, let's go to the phones. Alex in Mountain View, California. Yeah, Alex, welcome to America at Night. Hi, thanks for taking my call. I wanted to comment on Trump's attempt to help the Iranian people by decapitating their government. Yes. First, no foreign power is imposing that government on people of Iran. That government exists because the majority of its people support it. That's the type of government they understand. And if Trump attempted to remove it, the people of Iran would simply replace it with something similar. So in the future – Well, hold on a second. Hold on. Hold on. They don't have democracy there. They don't have open and free elections. So we don't know what the people would vote for. We don't know the most other people would vote for this regime. Well, the people want a democracy. They generally want it. Yeah, but they don't have one. But they don't have one. Well, look at what happened in Eastern Europe. After the Kremlin stopped imposing those foreign governments, those governments on the people of Eastern Europe, they built it themselves. No, I understand. But hold on. You said the Iranian people like the current regime. I don't know how you can say that. Everyone does, but the majority do. That's how they stay in power. How do you know that? Because it's the nature of people. Take the United States, for example. Imagine that somehow... No, no, no, no, no. Hold on. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. What evidence do you have that the majority of the Iranian people like this current form They've never voted on it. They don't have free and open elections. It has existed for decades. Well, it's existed for decades because I think people would argue that it's a bit of a dictatorship and that the people don't really have a choice, and it's run by the clerics and the ayatollahs. Let me explain how they have a choice in the current system. If the people of Iran have a genuine change of heart, they literally can go into the government offices and seize these people and arrest them and tear their limbs apart and build a democracy that they want. That's how change will occur. Except for the fact that the current regime is going in and killing people who are protesting. But when, let's say, 99% of the people of Iran support a Western democracy, that's what they want. They fall outnumber that 1% who don't. but the reality is we don't have that kind of ratio. You're saying that if the people of Iran really wanted a democracy, they would go in and topple the current regime and install a democracy. That's right. That's how it works. Well, that's a little naive in that the people of Iran don't necessarily have the power, and their large protests have been crushed by thousands and thousands of deaths. We don't even know how many because they cut off the Internet. And the Iranian people are clearly calling for some type of regime change. And the Iranian government is killing in the thousands of protesters. So to say very simply they could just rise up and overthrow their current government is a little naive. I can give you one historical example that would support my version of it. Okay, I'm not saying that rising up against a dictator hasn't worked in the past. I'm saying it's very hard to do. But go ahead. I will give you the other floor. Give me your example. Okay, look at Japan before 1868. It was ruled by a military family. But once the Japanese people saw what the Westerners had, they wanted to become part of the West. And they then launched a civil war where the side who wanted westernization far outnumbered the side that did not. And they won. And they established the first democracy in Asia. It wasn't a perfect democracy. It was flawed. As flawed as the democracy in the United States in 1786. But it happened. Okay. Okay. I believe you. Let's use a better example. Who overthrew a democratically elected Iranian government in the 1950s? It was the United States. The United States, yeah. And who did they install? A dictator, the Shah of Iran. And the people rose up, I guess, and finally overtook the Shah of Iran. So, Alex in Mountain View, California, thanks for the phone call. Appreciate it. Gil in San Antonio, Texas, welcome to America at Night. Yes, I think I heard you say that your former baseball coach introduced you to Sandy Koufax. Yes, I did. I told that story the other night. Okay. You have another connection to Sandy Koufax that you may not know about. What is that? Your predecessor, Larry King, and Sandy Koufax were high school chums. They went to the same high school together? Yeah, in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, yes. I mean, I know Larry King was a huge Brooklyn Dodgers fan, and I know he was then a huge Los Angeles Dodgers fan, but I did not know they went to the same high school. That's a great story. Well, it's even better than that. There's a Larry King tank. It runs about eight minutes. I checked it. It's still on YouTube. called Larry King, The Carvel Story. And he tells a very amusing story about he and Sandy Colfax and another high school friend that took a trip to Connecticut to prove that you could buy three scoops of Carville ice cream for just 15 cents And if you've got eight minutes and you want to be entertained, and I think you'd like to use a face of your brother, Pastor Rodney King and Jimbo Hammer, I think you would enjoy that one. So it's a story on YouTube. I'll do a search for Larry King, Sandy Koufax. Was it Carvel ice cream? No, it's just Larry King, Carvel story. Carvel story. All right. I will check it out. Gil in San Antonio. Good stuff, Gil, man. You're like a walking Google. Holy mackerel. Doing a little search here. Larry King and Sandy Koufax both attended Lafayette High School in Brooklyn, New York. Though not at the same time. King graduated in 51, two years before Sandy Koufax. It's a pretty good high school to get Sandy Koufax and Larry King. You know, the high school I went to, Jim Brown, the legendary running back, Jim Brown graduated from my high school. And as the story goes, give you a little history lesson. As the story, as it was told to me growing up, Jim Brown, right, legendary, considered one of the great running backs of all time. When he graduated from high school, Manhattan High School, 1950s, four-sport star, football, basketball, baseball, lacrosse. I think he also ran track, too, but the four biggies were baseball, football, basketball, and lacrosse. When he graduated from high school, nobody wanted him. and a local lawyer in town, Ken Malloy, was a graduate of Syracuse University. And Ken Malloy said it is a travesty that this young African-American man is not getting a chance at a scholarship anywhere in the country. He is the best we've ever seen. and Ken Malloy went up and down Main Street and went to the establishments and said, put money in the till. We're going to send this kid to college for one year. He went up to his old university, Syracuse, and went into the coach's office and said, we're going to pay for the first year of this running back to come to your school. After that, you put him on scholarship. If you want to. And Syracuse agreed. And the rest, as they say, is history. How's that for a Jim Brown story? I had a chance to meet him a couple times along the way. Jim Brown. So Jim Brown and I went to the same high school. Not the same as Larry King and Sandy Koufax. Sandy Koufax and Jim Brown comparable in terms of their iconic status. But Larry King's got me on a couple years. America at Night. Stay right there. Back in a moment. Call now. 844-262-4729. That's 844-2-MGRAH. Join the conversation. Call 844-2-MGRAW. America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. All right, the texts are flowing in. Catherine from Vancouver, awesome Jim Brown story. Thank you very much. This one is from Minnesota. Why hasn't the landfill about four and a half miles from Nancy Guthrie's home been searched? I don't know, but you can probably tell when a landfill's been disturbed, right? So I'm sure they've looked at it. I'm sure there's a reason why it hasn't been searched. I can't answer that question for you. I don't know. But you'd have to assume that the FBI is smart enough that if there's a landfill, they would have at least checked it out and crossed it off the list. Here's one from Kansas from the 316. Good evening, McGraw. I remember when Larry King would always say he ate one meal a day, and he said he only ate at Duke. Duke Zeberts. We played the jingle a couple of weeks ago. And then this one from Tim in Washington. Thank you, McGraw. Tim in Washington. And Tim, you're welcome. Call back any time. I love the banter. Tony in Montreal, thanks for holding on. Welcome to America at Night. How you doing, McGraw? Nice to talk to you again and talk to your audience. Listen, you know, when you came on, it was a different vibe. And when I started talking to you, I don't think we always agree on everything, but I always said you're hard to dislike because you know how to speak and you know how to listen. Speaking means you know how to listen. But I think there's a key word now in politics. I call it the death of shame. And nobody has shame anymore. No question. When is it possible? In our country, in Canada, okay, we're not at the level of a U.S., you know, United States world power. You are the world's leading military economic power. Many people don't understand that because you live in your country. But on the outside world, you are the guys that are leading Europe, Australia, Canada, etc., against what we consider nefarious powers. But when I watch you guys, we have a throne speech in Canada. It's called the Parliamentary Throne Speech. And it's given by the Prime Minister, who has the majority of seats in the Parliament. Very similar to you guys. You have a president. He gives an address to the State of the Union. He's declaring what he's done in the past year and what he will do. And when we have a throne speech, we're not perfect. We have some jabbering and we have some nonsense. But nobody leaves the commons. We call it the commons, the parliament. Yeah, you've got two minutes. You've got two minutes. Okay, so quickly, why would you be so rude to the office of the president? If you dislike the president, you still know that's the president's office. Many presidents have held that office. Great presidents. And also, if you're a paid employee of the United States government as a congressperson, you should sit down. And whether you like that president or not, you should sit because you're in the office of the president. And, you know, I can go through a litany of people that I consider shameful. Tony, Tony, Tony, you're absolutely right. But it didn't just start at the State of the Union with the Democrats jawboning him or the guy holding up the sign or whatever, right? I mean, it's all over the place. It's both parties. It's people who were caught cheating on their wife with an intern and not resigning. I'm talking about Bill Clinton or the guy down in Texas who's going through it right now. It doesn't matter the party. The death of shame, right? When you're caught having an affair with an adult film star and writing money to keep her quiet from the Resolute Desk, there used to be shame in that. Now there's not any shame in it. You're absolutely right. The death of shame in this country, it's going to bite us. It is going to come back and bite us. And there is no morality anymore. There is no more family values. It's who can we get? Who can we get from their side? You're absolutely right, Tony. I agree with you. Scott, hold on. Lots more text messages coming in, and I promise you I'm going to get to this Bruce Framing story because it's a good one. Stay right there. America at Night, back in a moment. This is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. Thank you. Thank you. McGraw. Yeah, I love a little. I love a little twang. I love a little country. Nothing wrong with a little country there. All right, welcome back. 1-844-2-Mcgraw. 1-844-262-4729. Scott in St. Louis, welcome to America at Night. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Brady Chuck is, he's mad at the White House because they released an AI-generated video that has him saying something like that the Canadians are maple syrup, blankety, you know, type stuff. And, you know, he says he would never say anything like that. So, you know, he's getting in trouble with his Canadian... Well, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. To sort of tell the correct story, so Brady Kachuk, one of the Ottawa senators, was on Team USA, and the White House, I guess, I don't know if they retweeted or sent along a TikTok video that was doctored, and he said in this video that they have him saying, he said they booed our national anthem, so we had to come out and teach those maple syrup eating blankety-blanks a lesson. It went on to say something else. Brady Kachuk, I thought, I thought was deft, was as diplomatic and as professional and as respectful as humanly possible. All he said was clearly it's fake. It's not my voice. It's not my lips moving. I have no control over any of these accounts. I don't know whose words they are. They're not mine. So I can't do anything about it. So he took the high road. He didn't say, how dare the White House. He didn't bash anybody. He just defied and said, look, this is not me. I would never have said anything like this. I respect the Canadians. I respect the Canadian team. He plays for the Ottawa Senators. He's not an idiot. Even if he thought that, he wouldn't say it. But he's saying, I never said it. I don't even think that. I don't talk that way. So the guy was about a master class in trying to get sucked into the political vile nature of the country today. But he stayed above it, and I applaud him for the way he handled it. Well, he got sucked in when he decided to accept an invitation from the one addicted. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Brady Kachuk is a hockey player who played for the U.S. team. He won the gold medal, and the president of the United States asked him to come to the White House, and he went. That doesn't, he wasn't advocating for anybody. He wasn't, you know, this is not Charles Lindbergh taking the. What if Hitler had invited him? Okay, that's a different story. Okay, Donald Trump is not Hitler. Donald Trump is not Hitler. The only difference is that Trump is incompetent. Donald Trump is not Hitler. Donald Trump is not Hitler. He's trying to be. Well, okay, but he's not, okay? So there's no sense having this conversation. What's the difference, man? Hitler didn't like immigrants either. I can't have this. There's no way to have this conversation. What is ICE acting like? ICE is acting like Nazis. Scott, with all due respect, there's no reason for us to have this conversation. Because if you think Trump is Hitler, I can't have a conversation with you. We cannot have a conversation. Okay, all right. So he's not. So he's not Hitler. He could be, though. He could be. Okay, the point is this. The point is this. The point is this. Brady Kachuk is a hockey player. And for everybody to hang their political cause on a hockey player who plays hockey is unfair and disingenuous. There's that word again. To the team, the players, the Olympics, and everything else. All the guy was doing was playing hockey. And he finds himself in the middle of this political fight, which he has no control over and or doesn't want to be in it. The guy just wants to play hockey. and and and and for that matter it's this it's his crowning achievement it's one of the great things right the american team hasn't done this in 46 years let them bask in the glow of that don't bring it down into the vile in the muck of the politics so you know uh i i just i i scott thank you for the phone call i applaud what brady kachuk did i i think he handled it correctly I think the women handled it correctly, right? They didn't go. They said, you know, we didn't go. And the woman, I can't remember exactly what she said, but she, you know, was much more respectful. Yeah, Donald Trump isn't very respectful. You know, he says some stupid things. He says inappropriate things to female reporters. He says the dumbest, stupid, most ignorant things in the world sometimes. Yes, he does. But these athletes have taken the high road. And so don't blame them for taking the high road. That's my only point. All right. Let me do this. Let me take a break. Gather my thoughts. And I promise you, the Bruce Framing story. Bruce Framing, longtime Major League Baseball umpire, passes away at the age of 86. I have a Bruce Framing story. I want to tell it in its entirety. Stay right there. America at Night. Back in a moment. America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven. where the nation comes to talk. The floor is yours. Call or text 844-262-4729. That's 844-2-MGRAW. All right, let's get right to it. Here you go. I'm doing a little research here, and it was Bruce Fleming, longtime Major League Baseball player, died tonight at the age of 86. He was a Major League umpire for 37 seasons. He was a part of 11 no-hitters. He was the home plate umpire for Nolan Ryan's record fifth no-hitter in 1981. He was the home plate umpire for Nolan Ryan's fifth. In 1981, he was at first base for Dennis Martinez's perfect game. Legendary, legendary. He retired in 2007 and passed away tonight at the age of 86. Here's my Bruce Framing story. Let's go all the way back to the Wayback Machine. It was the year 2000, and I just moved to St. Louis. And it was the National League Championship Series. The New York Mets were playing the Cincinnati Reds in St. Louis. And I had a chance to go to, I believe it was game number one. And so I invite my longtime, longtime friend, and we go to the game. And the Mets end up winning the game. And I think that was the year that Rick Ankele was throwing and hitting the bull and losing his control. And so anyway, the Mets, I think, end up winning the game. And after the game, my buddy and I decide to walk out of the stadium and walk down the street to a bar. Kelly's Corner happens to be the bar for those who are paying attention at home. And as you do after a playoff game and you've got 50,000 people, some people end up going to the bar. So the bar was pretty packed. It was so packed that we were outside on the sidewalk having a nice little local beverage talking about the game. And with this, we're maybe three blocks, two and a half blocks from the stadium. With this, we see Bruce Fremming and the umpire crew walking down the street. and it looks like they appear to be going into the same bar we're at. So as Bruce Fremming walks behind me, I say to him, Nice game, Blue. You missed a couple. So he stops in his tracks, turns and looks at me. Now, I'm taller than he is. He's a relatively short man. I'm a relatively taller man. He turns and he looks at me, and he puts his finger in my face, and he says to me things that I cannot say on the radio. I'm telling you, shut the blankety, blankety, blank, blank. I don't care what you blankety, blankety, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank. 30 seconds. Dresses me down. Turns around and walks in the bar. So everybody I'm with, like, recoils in horror. And I laugh this very nervous laugh. And I'm like, hey, isn't that funny? And they turn to me. They're like, I don't think he was joking. I think he was going to, like, punch you in the face. So now I feel terrible. Now I'm like, oh, my goodness. The poor guy is an umpire. He's going to go get a beer after the game. And I heckled him. And I'm one of those people who heckle people. And I just, I felt terrible. So I walk into the bar. Bar's packed. I walk up to the bar. He's there at the bar. And I say, excuse me, sir, I apologize. I didn't mean anything by it outside. I was just having a little fun. I'm sorry. Please accept my apology. He turns to me and he says, I thought I told you outside. Get the blankety, blank, blank, blank out of my blankety, blank face, and I don't blankety, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank. And, I mean, this guy dresses me down again, so much so that the jukebox stopped playing music, right? Everybody stops in the bar, stares at me. The bartender stops, but the beer in the glass keeps pouring, right? I mean, it was just like one of those E.F. Hutton moments where this is the only guy in a crowded bar, and you're hearing this guy dress me down like you've never heard anybody get dressed down before at all. so I'm like well you know hey thanks a lot for nothing I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm trying to apologize to you and you're a jerk so I walk out of the bar so the next day on the radio we're doing the afternoon show and since it was game two of the playoff series we're in the plaza right by And if anyone knew, the old Bush Stadium was right by the old Stan Musial statue. And so the radio station's there, and everybody's coming by, and game two, and what's going on, and people are stopping by, and this one's stopping by, and that one's somewhere. And so in the middle of talking about the game from the night before, I mentioned the story that I went to Kelly's Corner after the game, and I ran into Bruce Fremming. and I tell the story about how Bruce Fremming, you know, nice game, Blue, and then I go inside and try to apologize. So I tell the whole story. Two hours later, we've got about 10 minutes left in the show, and our normal schedule, we're supposed to talk with legendary Cardinal broadcaster Jack Buck. Every Tuesday, every Thursday, he would check in. And so tonight being the playoff game, right, he was checking in. So as we get him on the radio, the producer in my ear says, Jack has a story for you. So don't ask him any questions. Jack wants to, you know, hijack the segment. Okay, he's Hall of Fame legendary broadcaster Jack Buck. You do what Jack says. So, hey, game two tonight, Jack, welcome to the show. What do you think? McGraw. Yes. I got somebody who wants to talk to you. Here's Bruce Fremming. And he hands the phone to Bruce Fremming. So Bruce Fremming gets on the phone. And Bruce Fremming says, as God as my witness. Bruce Fremming on the radio says, I thought I told you last night to leave me the blankety blank blank blank. I don't want it. I don't care. I don't give a blankety blank blank blank blank. I just goes off on me for the third time in 12 hours. So he hands the phone back to Jack Buck and you hear him. You see the steam, right? You hear the steam coming out of his ears. and Jack grabs the phone and Jack says McGraw he's not joking he's not joking he's looking for you don't go back to Kelly's Corner tonight this man's looking for you he wants blood and that is my Bruce Framing story so after the show was talking to Mr. Buck, and he proceeded to tell me that he would always get Bruce Freming's goat whenever he had a chance. And he told me about this one time. He was walking into the stadium in San Francisco's Candlestick Park. And as he's walking into the stadium, whatever it was, three hours before the game or whatever it was, he sees Bruce Freming, who's walking maybe 50 yards behind him. So as he walks into the gate, he sees the attendant there, and he gives the attendant $100. And he says, whatever you do, don't let Bruce Fremming in the stadium. This is okay, fine. So he gives the kid $100, and he walks around the corner. And Bruce Fremming comes up, and he shows him his credentials. And the kid says, I'm sorry, sir, these are fake. I can't let you into the stadium. And Bruce Fremming wants none of this, right? Kid, kid, let me in. And the kid plays it up, right? No, sir, I cannot let you in. And he ends up throwing a temper tantrum. Don't you know? Blankety, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank. And then all of a sudden Jack turns the corner and it's a big laugh and this guy's still not laughing. So apparently they had a quirky friendship where Jack would always put him in these situations. But that's as true a story as I can tell. That is exactly the way it happened in the year 2000. Bruce Fremming. And I was, you know, the last thing I was, I was brand new in town. The last thing I wanted to do was cause any trouble. The last thing I wanted to do was get anybody in trouble. I didn't want to get myself in trouble. I didn't want to do anything stupid. And, you know, hey, nice game, Blue. You missed a couple. And the guy just, the guy went off. So that's my story. Rest in peace, Bruce Fremming. All right, we got the time for one more. Saratoga County, New York, DJ Female. Welcome to America at Night. Yes, how are you? I'm fine. How are you? You know what? I've been listening to you. You are one of the best out there. You know how to hold your head together. You know how to not let people. I'm a retired child abuse counselor, and there's so many crazy people out there, And you know how to just stay calm and say what's needed to be said and just make people look like the idiots that they are. And like this guy you were just talking about, there's nothing you could do to please him, you know, if you gave him $8 million right there on the spot. And you're good, really. We listen to you every night now. And the people, huh? No, no, no. Go on. Go on. I like this phone call. Continue. Yeah. No, I was listening to you and these guys that want to argue and the people that are being all uptight about the stuff that you've been handling and Trump and all this crappy stuff. And you just walk in and you tell them what is and you don't let them rattle you. And they wind up looking like the idiots that they are. And like the guy who called it, he went off on you for what? I mean, what was that about? I often wonder that myself. DJ, I would let you go on flowering me with... Oh, no, I'm sorry. No, no, no, I would, but I'm out of time. Call back anytime and tell me how great I am anytime you want. Okay, I will do that. And stay the way you are, kid. Have a good night. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Very, very kind words. Thank you very much. Paul, I'm out of time. I can't get to you. You can text in, though, and you can become part of the show when you text in, 1-844-2-MGRAH. We'll send you a link. You can sign up for the menu, and then you can find out what guests we have each and every night. Thank you, DJ. That was very sweet of you to say, and thank you for listening, and thank you for all for listening. It truly is a labor of love. We can't do it without our executive director, Alex Hinton. Can't do it without our engineer, Richard Good. I'm McGraw-Milhaven, and this is America at Night on Westwood One. Good night, everybody. The Dan Bongino Show. Damn, I miss you all. I've got so much content bottled up in my head. I got a lot of stuff. This is the kind of stuff. It's real. May not hear this anywhere else. Hard truths. There's a lot of stuff to talk about that you think is going to open a lot of eyes, and a lot of ignoramuses are going to get shut down. and a bold perspective no one else can offer. They are freaking out. It's the comeback everyone's been waiting for. Lovers, haters, friends, supporters, detractors, you're all welcome. I want to hear it all. The Dan Bongino Show. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. See you there.