A Dreadful Directing Job w/Natasha Kermani - Just Shoot It 515

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Everyone. Welcome to the 515th episode of Distruded podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by patron Brian Hoff of Hoff Studios. Thanks, Brian. I'm Warren Kaplan.

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And I'm Matt Unlow. Today we've got Natasha Kermani on the show. She's a longtime pal of the show. She was back, she was on way back when in like 20.

1:37

20.

1:44

2021, something like that. Anyway, she's got a new movie, a

1:45

movie at South By.

1:48

She had a movie at south by and now she's got a movie, a star studded film called the Dreadful that

1:48

is out February 20th.

1:54

Oh, nice.

1:55

February 20th is the release.

1:56

Pretty cool. It's got Sophie Turner, Kit Harington and Marcia Gay Harden.

1:57

Yeah.

2:01

So if you star studded, if you want to get gay and harden for some Game of Thrones stars, you should check it out. The Dreadful, it's fun, it's scary, it's tense, it's suspenseful. And it was really fun talking to Natasha. Yeah, she just recently had a baby in it. I, I, I don't know about you, but I enjoy talking to filmmakers that have just had babies.

2:02

100%. Yeah, no, it was great. And also, I think, I don't know, we'll See how Kevin kind of edits this one together, but we did it in two parts because of that, because,

2:20

you know, the baby woke up. But there's something fun about, like the insanity of successful filmmakers and like how they keep their life together that is. Is interesting. I was in an edit session today and my. I asked my editor in a super annoying grandparent type way. I think he's, you know, he's in his at least mid-30s, maybe late-30s. I asked him if he had any plans for kids. He's married and he's like, you know, it's just so busy. I just don't know how you'd even have time for kids. And he's like, in LA, no one that I know in their 30s has kids. And I was like, yeah, you just, you find the time. And that's kind of part of the adventure of being in a freelance film industry worker and having kids. It's. It's crazy. And I told them it's amazing for networking.

2:29

Yeah, yeah, that's true. You do spark. Like when you find another parent in the industry, you are like, oh, cool. We relate to each other in that way. And I think that you and I both kind of like, we were happy to talk to Natasha, not only because she's an awesome filmmaker and, you know, a previous guest, but also like that life change is cool because we get it. Do you know what I mean? Like, she asked to record a little bit later because of her kid and we already record very late because we want to get bedtime and, you know, just kind of the differences in schedules and stuff. So through. Through those circumstances, we end up recording this in two parts. So we'll see how things cut together. But Natasha's so smart and funny and, you know, eloquent that I think it'll be a relatively seamless scenario for everyone.

3:09

Yeah, you tell us. But speaking of seamless scenarios, I do want to bring up something that happened on our last episode, which the completionists amongst you might have noticed that in our unpaid endorsement segment, Matt and I both endorsed something, but our guest, Chuck Canane, director of Solo meo, did not endorse anything and it's because his audio had dropped out. But he did have a really great endorsement, which of course I'm not going to remember the name of. Do you, Kylie? Popcorn?

3:55

Yes, it's a. It's a popcorn brand, Riles Select Popcorn.

4:24

He.

4:27

I was so excited about it. He was like, hey, I'm going to send you some.

4:28

So did you receive yours?

4:31

Not yet. Have you received Yours.

4:32

I re mine. I received two bags. One said Matt and one said Orin and they were both delicious.

4:34

That's not funny. It's not funny.

4:39

I did not. We did not receive it yet. But I hope we get them soon.

4:41

I hope we get them soon too. If not, I'll just have to to get them for myself. But yeah, he. He's a serious popcorn guy. Ryal Select. So shout out to the the Canane Brothers for their awesome movie and their great endorsements.

4:44

Yeah. And then one final thing. If you want to be as cool as Brian Hoff of Hoff Studios and you want to get mentioned being in the podcast, you want to be a friend of us, you want to support us, go to patreon.com just shoot a pod and throw us a $2 $4. I feel like we're getting a lot of these $4 people recently.

4:55

Yeah, I like four. $4 is nice. It's a bucking episode.

5:11

Yeah. Helps us keep this going. And yeah, Matt, I keep proposing that we just make AI versions of this. There's enough data to feed the AI engine that it could probably make an episode without us, but Matt insists.

5:14

Hi, I'm Oren. I like Trader Joe's snacks.

5:29

Yeah, pretty good actually. Yeah, pretty good. But Matt insists we do it the human way, the old fashioned way.

5:32

Sure.

5:38

So that's why my kids don't have a father.

5:39

That's why we record at like nine o'clock at night.

5:41

Anyhow. Okay. Well, as. Nice chat and Matt, now let's hop into our interview with Natasha Kermani.

5:44

Kudos for hopping on the podcast with a three month old.

5:54

I can't do it alone. My husband's with her.

5:59

When my daughter was born, we. I recorded like a week after she was born and I was just like so mad for doing. I was like, why on earth am I recording this episode? I was just fuming.

6:01

Yeah.

6:14

And Oren was like, well, we didn't take a break when I had a kid. And then we look back and you definitely had a month off.

6:14

Yeah. First my second kid, we were recording from the like between epidural, between contracts.

6:20

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

6:25

I'm committed to the podcast. This is my real baby. Yeah, I love that.

6:28

Yeah, yeah, sorry.

6:32

I love that.

6:32

So again, kudos. And also promoting a film. Film is really tricky. Right. So, like, well done, well done.

6:33

Yeah, thank you, thank you. Yeah, she's. She's my newest project.

6:39

Yeah, sure.

6:42

Dreadful. I always daughter the horror movie name also.

6:43

Yeah, she's. She's Drea Defo.

6:47

Yeah, that's pretty good.

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I always say that having a kid is like the feature you never wrap.

6:51

Right?

6:55

Yeah.

6:55

Like, it's a. Would you agree it's as. It's about as hard as a feature, but then you just never.

6:55

It's so there's no break. Say that. Yeah. It's so funny you say that because my husband is a dp, so we both work in production, and in a lot of ways, this just felt very in our wheelhouse. Or it's like, okay, we're preparing for something. It comes.

7:00

Weird schedules. On your feet.

7:13

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

7:17

Yeah.

7:17

Very focused on. On want, keeping something alive, you know, keeping the dream alive. So. Yeah, no, it is. It is funny. But she's been a lot of fun. I mean, I think, yeah, we're. We're lucky with her, but she's. She's a. She's a trip, man. I mean, babies are crazy. They're crazy, you know, and every day

7:18

it gets easier in like 18 years.

7:33

Yeah, right, exactly.

7:36

So you're good.

7:37

I think it does get easier in like two and a half.

7:38

Okay. Yeah, I can make it. I can make it.

7:42

I don't know. I have a 9 year old and a 4 year old. My 9 year old is so easy. That's like. You're like, you know, she'll come home and she'll be like, I'm bored. And you'll be like, go read a book, clean up your room. And then that's it. Yeah, my four year old is like

7:45

bouncing off the wall.

7:58

You just need to entertain them like 24, 7.

7:59

Yeah, yeah.

8:01

It's just.

8:02

Well, I think this, this little gal is on the edge of, you know, she's rolling around and so she's about to start, you know, creating chaos and crawling and being mob. That we're trying to enjoy that. She's like, still somewhat warm.

8:03

Sure.

8:16

You can still kind of put her down. She won't go too far. You know, she can only roll so far. So. So, yeah, but there's. There's a lot of change coming.

8:17

Yeah. Speaking of dreadful things, your movie, I don't think this is a spoiler because it's in the trailer is about Sophie Turner, who's lost her husband and at war and she's childless, so she. You know, I think that that's the thematically, like, part of the setup of your movie. And I'm curious if that affected you wanting to have a baby too or.

8:24

You know, it's interesting.

8:44

Greenland happens.

8:45

Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. No, I. I think, honestly, when that project was coming together, the. The child was more sort of symbolic, I think, than like a literal. Her having, like a literal desire for a baby. It was more the idea of abundance. Right. So that. There's this. There is this idea of family, there's this idea of home, there's this idea of abundance. Right. And that a child is sort of, for her, a part of that equation. So that's really where the baby kind of plays in. But it was interesting as the project sort of developed and especially as we were showing it to women viewers, women especially really latched onto that and that idea that she really wanted a child. So that kind of grew and developed on its own. The child was really representative of the main character's sort of feeling of home and family and abundance and sort of what sort of symbolically a child would mean for her rather than necessarily like a literal baby that she wanted. But that sort of did develop and change in small ways, especially as women watch cuts of the film and sort of like reviewing the project, we realized that it's actually like a very sort of interesting aspect of her that she kind of has this desire that feels so tactile and so real and so relatable to modern audiences. So we actually ended up really loving that. That aspect. Yeah.

8:47

Oh, so. So, like, the literal. The literal aspect became more.

10:07

Yeah, yeah. In the beginning, really, it was just, you know, she's living in this really, like, frugal place where there's no room for anything extra. And so, you know, bringing a child, expanding your family really felt like, wow, that is such a. That is. You're living in a place of abundance. If you're able to do that. Yeah. It's a luxury.

10:12

A luxury.

10:29

Still the case.

10:30

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. Sure, sure. Yeah. Just wait till you meet people who have two kids. I'm looking at you, Oren.

10:31

You're like, I can't even conceive of it. Wow.

10:37

Yeah.

10:40

Yeah.

10:40

Just, you know, just a cool six grand a month on, you know, preschool. No big deal.

10:41

Yeah, it's really.

10:46

Yeah, no, LA is not that expensive. Yeah, you don't even want to know how much. Very mediocre. Drama camp.

10:47

Well, I've already decided this baby is not allowed to do anything in that industry. So every day I tell her, stem baby, no entertainment.

10:54

Well, that's. I mean, then you're guaranteed. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah.

11:01

Is that.

11:05

Yeah.

11:05

Is that. Is that. What do you think, Matt? Do you. Would you discourage your daughter from working in Hollywood?

11:06

I. I don't know, I don't know. You know, if there were still movies, you know, and by the time she's deciding what she wants to do, then yeah, then maybe go for it.

11:13

Full length six minute movies.

11:23

Yeah. I will talk about an attention span.

11:26

I will say I want to jump into the dreadful. But I, I think I've said on the podcast before, but I'm gonna say just to you. Natasha is my wife's manager. He, My wife's an actor and he. The some interesting things he said to her when she was starting out was one of the things was he said that the best way to make it in Hollywood is to have parents that work in Hollywood. And he was like, there's not much that you can do about that at this point.

11:28

But your kids, but, but you can

11:53

poison your children, but your kids can, can have like a huge leg up in this.

11:55

Of course, of course.

12:01

You know, if they want to pursue it because they will. Like our kids are just by definition like, you know, your kid's mom just directed a movie with frickin Jon Snow. It's like, hasn't he suffered enough?

12:02

Yeah. I mean the truth, the truth is all industries are changing and evolving and they're all pose risks. Right. Like I'm, I'm mostly joking when I say that because the world will be unrecognizable in 20 years, you know, so I really just say that as a, as a job to myself and the poor decisions I've made to, you know, find myself here.

12:12

Sure, sure. Well, poor decisions, I don't know. Look, you've got like a bunch of bonafide stars in a movie that people are really excited about and I'm dying to know how, how the whole thing.

12:32

This was a long gestation period. So this was, you know, a few of the other projects came together quite quickly and sort of, you know, organically and this one really took a long time. So I actually wrote the first version of this in early 2017. So the January of 2017, sort of in the, the aftermath of the election I was living in, started working on this project. And so it's been, you know, almost a decade to come together. You know, it took many shapes and forms. Originally it was written for like France. It was like a completely different sort of situation. Yeah.

12:43

And correct me if I'm wrong because maybe this is just conjecture, but is it, is it based off of or there's just similarities.

13:16

So it's based off the same folktale. So Onibaba is based on a, like it's it's basically a morality place. So it's. It's a story about, you know, an older woman, a younger woman and a third party. And, you know, I was very moved by the film Onibaba. So there's a lot of homage in the movie that you'll see. But really what I was.

13:22

And for. For people I didn't know this, I just. Somebody said, hey, Onibaba on. On letterbox. And I was like, oh, that's it. I think I've heard of this movie. It's like a Japanese movie from the 60s.

13:45

Absolutely beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. But it's, I think, a little bit more preoccupied with sexuality and desire and sor. The push and pull between. There's actually a very samurai. Samurai in it. There's samurais. There is. Okay, there's one samurai. But it's a gorgeous film. And I think I was. What I was really interested in, especially at the time, was sort of this idea of, you know, losing your. The vision of the world that you had in your past as the world is becoming more clear to you and sort of the stories that we tell each other and the stories that we weave around each other that inform us. Right. And inform our relationships. So that was really what I was interested in. And that's where, you know, my script came in from. But the dynamics are, yeah, very much a homage to that film.

13:54

And so is that. But it's set in kind of like some sort of like, gate, like UK period.

14:48

Sure.

14:55

Right.

14:56

Medieval.

14:56

It is actually sort of specifically set in the mid 15th century Cornwall, which is coastal England. It's like sort of the. It's the Cornish coast, basically, which is like the very, very pointy, tippy point of England. And I actually went to Cornwall when I was screening my first film, Invitation Girl, in a London festival. And I took a trip down to Cornwall. I met some filmmakers from Falmouth and they invited us down and. And I really just sort of fell in love with the. With the place and sort of the romance of it. You know, King Arthur is allegedly from that part of the world.

14:57

Was.

15:28

Was the film. Was the film set in Cornwall when you. Before you took the trip or were by your trip?

15:28

No, I was inspired by that trip. So I rewrote the script for Cornwall after I did that trip and I went to Tintaggle and, you know, I sort of did all this. This. This exploration of place and it really informed the story in a really, really cool way. So. So that's where that came from. And I was interested also in that time period, because it's the time right before. Before the. The Golden Age. Right. So it's sort of like the last gasp of the true Dark Ages. And so that. That was sort of interesting to me as well to, To. To. To explore that time.

15:35

So you're inspired by. By Cornwell. It sounds like it becomes like a really, you know, important part of not only the creative genesis, but also just the film in general. Did you feel like you needed to shoot there and did you, or would any old English countryside work?

16:06

Yes, it was very important to us to shoot in Cornwall and we did a lot of. So. So I kind of actually rewrote the script to fit specific places that I had scouted. And we felt like there was something really special in the air. So, of course you could go to Ireland, you could go to other places, but we really wanted to try to film there if we could. And we did end up filming there, which was great. So, yeah, there was just something sort of special about the coastline, the woods and the mossiness and all that. The sort of. The feel of it felt very connected to me, to the story. So I really did want to film there. So I was grateful that we did end up filming there.

16:23

And the movie is. It starts out in like, old English or something. Like there's literally subtitles to kind of explain

16:57

Cornish language. Yeah, so it's. It is. We worked with a local translator to, who helped us with the pronunciation and the translation and all that stuff. Yeah, it's a Cornish hen. It's a really beautiful language and unfortunately it's a dead language. It. It was sort of done away with in mid 17th century. So it is. You know, there's a handful of people who. Who still speak it, but it's very much an endangered language. So, yeah, I, I liked starting with the Cornish just to sort of bring us into this fantastical fairy land, you know, world. It sounds a little bit like Elvish or something. So, yeah, I just really fell in love with. With the sound of it and to sort of bring us into the story. And then, of course, we switched to English.

17:04

Is that part of your process when you're writing, to kind of do a deep dive into, like, the world that you want your story to take place in and kind of use. Yeah, I think always form character and all that stuff.

17:45

Yeah, I think always. I mean, I'm a big. I'm a student of history. I'm a, you know, I'm a literature nerd. I love all that kind of stuff. And I think of so Much of it for cinema. Right. Cinema ends up being this sort of like patchwork of all of these other things, of visual arts, of music, of history, of language, of all these kind of things. So to just pull from your own head feels like you're kind of ditching in a lot of ways the most fun part of the process. So I, Yeah, I like to deep dive into all of that kind of stuff and then, you know, you see what actually ends up being in the movie and in the screen. But I think to deep dive into the world is half the fun.

17:55

Yeah, yeah. But on a practical level, were there ever moments where you're like, did I have to be here or was it always worth it? Do you know what I mean? You know, like, like I'm imagining that it's a little bit more remote or gear is a little bit harder or you're traveling, people, you know, any of that stuff. Or it was always all just like, this is, this is where the movie.

18:33

I mean, look, it's England. You're not like in the depths of, you know, some super remote place. You're. You're a few hours away from London. It's very much a hub. So, you know, I don't think so. I think that there's, you know, there's, there's so much access there that for me it was really just nice to be there. And I think also there Cornwall is sort of a very proud place. So I think to do a Cornish movie in Cornwall was also sort of a cool thing to be able to do. And the locals like that as well.

18:51

Sure, sure. Maybe you get a little bit of special treatment, you know, like people are. It's a. Yeah, we talk about like

19:22

the hometown hotel manager was very excited that we were working with Sophie Turner. She's a big.

19:28

Sure, of course, of course.

19:32

Well, I actually wanted to rewind to that a little bit. So you've, I mean this is, you've done so much other stuff, you know, and you worked on VHS and these kind of famous franchises and, and had a lot of movies at a lot of festivals. Last time your movie was playing in south by. But I feel like this is the first time. Just a quick. After a quick perusal of your IMDb where you kind of have these like world famous stars, you know, and yeah, obviously Sophie Turner and Kit Harrington, but also Marcia Gay Harden, who.

19:35

Yeah, Marcia's amazing.

20:01

My. From In My Brain. She's American, but she seems very American in your movie.

20:03

She is, she actually is. I believe she's from California actually.

20:09

There. Done that. No, thanks. Not for me.

20:13

Yeah, no, I mean, so.

20:15

So, yeah. How did you get them?

20:16

Sophie got the movie made. I mean, Sophie was really the reason that we. We got any steam and she brought Kit, and then we. We attached Marcia afterwards.

20:19

Right, but how did you. Obviously, our question is, how did you get Sophie?

20:27

Yeah, so my agents at UTA loved the project and actually thought of her. They said, hey, what about Sophie Turner? And I just thought it was a really kind of creative idea, especially, obviously, we all know her from Game of Thrones, being a kid on Game of Thrones. And so I thought that was. That was really cool. So we sent her the script, and she responded to it. And I think she was looking. She. She and Kit both actually had not really gone back to that world. Hadn't really gone back to that, like, War of the Roses era thing. And so I think that was appealing. And she's like, I haven't held the

20:30

sword for way too long.

21:01

Yeah.

21:03

Wait, but. So is this in 2017 or is this much more recent?

21:03

No, no, this. This was this. Well, actually, it was the year of the strike, so we sort of put it all together right before the strike, the cast together right before the strike, and then had to stop because there was a strike. And then we picked back up, I think, the following. It was like March or something like that. We started sort of doing virtual calls and rehearsals and working on the script and all of that good stuff. But definitely, Sophie was the. You know, she really got the ball rolling when she attached as the lead, obviously. I mean, and she's also just so sort of practical and down to earth that I think. Think that was very much like, okay, cool, we have our lead. We have the centerpiece of the film. Let's. Let's find the cast around her and go, you know, so it was once. Once she kind of came on board, it was just a matter of supporting her around that role.

21:07

And then, I mean, I guess just to be annoying and dig in, just from a selfish filmmaker point of view. So you're at uta, you've made these movies. You know, you've obviously, you're at UTA because you've gotten repped through all your work and people know who you are, but someone says, hey, what about Sophie Turner? You don't know her personally, but she's at the same agency as you. Are they like, we're gonna send her the script, and can you just, like, write a letter for us to send to her or should we send her, like, some clips from your movies or how, like, how do you know? What's the wheel?

21:55

So interesting. I have. I don't know that I've ever really had luck with the letter. I don't know if they even read those letters, truthfully. I always write them, and I always, like, put my heart and soul, but I have no idea. Yeah, I. I really think at the end of the day, it's the script. So I believe we sent it to her British agent, and so it got to her that way. And, yeah, I think it's really the script. At the end of the day. Either they love it or they don't. And then you kind of meet with them, and then they decide, okay, this person is not a psychopath. I can work with them. And, yeah, I don't.

22:22

Can you tell us what that meeting was like? Like, how did you pull up psychopath, which is kind of hard to do with, like, people that are slightly famous. Did you watch Game of Thrones?

22:56

I did watch Game of Thrones. Yeah. Yeah.

23:05

Okay.

23:06

Yeah, No, I was a big Game of Thrones fan. I mean, I don't know, man. I do commercials and stuff. Like, I. You know, they're people. They're just people. You know their face, so you think you know them, but you don't.

23:07

Right.

23:17

They're not your friend. You know, this is a person you're meeting for the first time. So I think it's just being respectful and professional, starting from the work, and then once that, you know, groundwork is kind of there and we've discussed the project, then you can kind of. Of loosen up and get to know each other as people. But I think it's just. Yeah. Coming back to the work and sort of giving your perspective on it and. And opening the conversation to, like, okay, well, what. What, Juice? What. What is exciting to you about the project? Right. Like, you know, obviously, Sophie, this is a world that you spent a lot of time in. You know, what. What do you feel that was unfinished? Or, you know, what do you. What do you want to do with this?

23:17

And, like, trying to appeal. I think you kind. We kind of talk around it a little bit on the podcast about, like, trying to appeal to someone to give them something that they haven't done before, you know?

23:53

Yeah.

24:04

Especially if they're known for something. But then. Yeah, this is.

24:04

Well, Marsha was the same thing. Marcia was the same thing, because she hadn't really done. Obviously, Marcia is a legend, and she's. She's done so much, but she hadn't really done, like, a sort of spooky Villain.

24:07

She's so good. She's so scary, and she's so.

24:19

Just wonderful. Yeah. And so that, for her was the same thing, you know, to. To play that role that she hadn't played before. And even Kit was excited to do, like, the anti Jon Snow. You know, he was even like, I want to cut my hair. You know, like, the first meeting we had, he had the Jon Snow hair. He was like, I want to cut it off. It's got to be short. It's got to be. Not look like Jon Snow. And I was like, okay. Fun fact. The character was originally named John.

24:22

Oh, sure.

24:45

You're like, we gotta fix that. We can't fix that.

24:47

First things he said, he's like, maybe we don't call him.

24:50

Is it the Eternals? There's some other movie I saw that has, like. Like, a lot of Game of Thrones actors in it.

24:54

Oh, is his name John in that? I don't know.

24:59

No, but it's Cersei, and I think there's like, a few.

25:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

25:05

But I guess, you know when you're like, hey, let's get all the best British actors, that's pretty high. You're gonna have more than one Game of Thrones cast number.

25:06

Yeah.

25:14

Great and famous. Right?

25:15

Right. When we were trying to cast the third role, we were like, oh, my gosh, we can't have three Game of Thrones actors.

25:17

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

25:22

Yeah. So we. We wanted to go outside of the Game of Thrones world for that. Awesome.

25:23

And so for Marcia Gay Hard, and she's doing, like, a pretty, like, big accent change from how she normally talks. How do you approach? Is that something she already kind of had in her back pocket, or was that something you're like, hey, we'll hook up with a dialect coach.

25:29

Yeah, they all worked with a dialect coach because they're all doing an accent that is not their normal accent. So we actually created our own accent for the film. We didn't want to do a Cornish accent. It sounds a little bit like. Like, ARR, matey. Like a little bit of a pirate.

25:43

Little too pirate.

25:57

Sure.

25:58

Yeah.

25:59

So. So Kit actually had found this guy, Simon Roper, who's a historian and a sort of, like a dialect expert. And. And we reached out to him, and it turns out he's a big Game of Thrones fan. So I'm sure his day was, like, tripped out when he got, like, a DM from Kitten. But basically he came and he helped us design an accent that, for us, felt exciting. It had A little bit of Cornish, but it was a little bit of old English as well to sort of put us into this place that wasn't just like the everyday English accent, but something that was a little bit unusual and pulled from history. So it's not exactly what they sounded like in the 1400s, but it's pulling from it.

25:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a fascinating. I feel like you hear those stories of like, you know. Oh, if you listen to like what the Shakespearean accent actually sounds like, it. It doesn't sound authentic to our ear.

26:36

No, it sounds like German, right? Yeah, yeah. It sounds like a completely different language.

26:47

Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting to have to tune to modern audience's expectations rather than worrying about, you know, any sort of authenticity, but still finding a little bit of it as well. That's really fascinating.

26:51

Yeah. Also, you know, if we wanted it to be 100% accurate, you could do that exact accent. Like you could do it, but then you'd need subtitles. And. And also our world is a little bit more fairy tale. Right. Like, we wanted pieces of it, but not like a literal set in that time, you know? Yeah, it is of the time, but not exactly it. Yeah.

27:02

The texture of the movie is like, there's a lot of flashbacks and kind of dreams and there's a little bit of like, you're not 100 sure, like what's real and what's not real.

27:21

Yeah.

27:31

Like from scene to scene, like if someone's imagining it, like a little bit of Rosemary's Babyish.

27:31

Yeah,

27:36

yeah, yeah. It's cool. And so. So you have Sophie Turner on. You could attach his cast and then you just. Do you take it to Lionsgate? What's the next step then? Do you just go to like Mexico and say, call me when it's ready?

27:39

Yeah, no, we attached a financier and then. Yeah. Basically just were waiting for schedules to align and we hopped on planes and went to England and shot really fast. So we shot this movie real quick. It was 18 day shoot.

27:50

Oh, wow.

28:02

Very, very fast. Yeah.

28:03

Rock and roll fast in period.

28:04

So that's tough. Obviously in the rusher.

28:05

Yeah. And also period or like, you know, every. It's not like you're just running and gunning French new Wave or whatever, like every single thing. Right? Yeah.

28:08

I mean, it seemed like the whole house. It takes place must have been custom built. Yeah.

28:16

Yep. The hut was built on an open field and it was winter, so. Yeah, no, it was a lot of. It was a lot of negotiating with the weather and the resources that we had. I'm really sorry.

28:21

That's okay. Totally get it.

28:32

Totally fine.

28:34

Do not worry.

28:35

Been there. I apologize. I'm so sorry.

28:35

I know what it feels like.

28:39

She's a baby. I promise.

28:41

Listen, my kid. We didn't say it, but it was. She had. What do you call it, where they cried all the time? Colic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:43

No, she's kid. It's just. She gets the nighttime scary sometimes.

28:51

Yeah, yeah, she wants.

28:54

Mom.

28:55

It's okay.

28:56

We can do. We can just pick it up like next time from where we stopped here. It's not.

28:56

All right. I apologize. Thank you.

29:00

Don't worry about it.

29:02

Do not. Zero worries. We totally get it.

29:02

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29:07

I had a meeting today with some producers and there is one thing that I brought up that Natasha said.

29:41

Oh no.

29:45

That I thought is actually an interesting tidbit, which is that she said that letters basically don't ever work out.

29:46

Yeah, because it's.

29:52

It's one of those like the, you know, first thing about new filmmakers waste their time doing a lot of things that made it in Hollywood 20 years ago told them to do.

29:53

Sure, sure.

30:03

Right, right.

30:03

So you were, you were telling us about how the movie came together by having Sophie on. Yeah, you got Sophie. Basically she just loved the script. You had the same agent?

30:04

Yes, well, we didn't have the same agent actually. She. She wasn't even at the same agency. My, one of my agents who had been a real champion of this project, Houston Cost. I will shout out. You know, there's a lot of negativity around agents, but I will say in this case he really did push the project. You know, he kept asking what's going on with the dreadful. So he had the idea of, oh well, what about Sophie Turner? Which I thought was really interesting idea. You know, obviously post Game of Thrones and to see her sort of back in that setting could Be very interesting. And so he sent it to her UK agent, who got it to her.

30:13

Oh, cool.

30:47

And then. So Sophie and I met, and then the strike happened.

30:48

So you guys, who. Who decides where you meet? Is it like the. Does the talent Internet.

30:53

We were on Zoom. She was in Italy or something glamorous.

30:58

I. I kind of like just a regular old Zoom. Right. Like, because I do. To Oren's point, I get a little stressed about where to pick, you know, like, if they want to meet in Beverly Hills, I don't have a spot.

31:02

Well, I have my go tos. I have my go tos that are just, like, always reliable. Yeah. So in Los Feliz, I go to Kismet, which is a little spot.

31:14

Not all time.

31:24

Not all time. All time.

31:25

Too much of a scene in the ass.

31:27

It's so sceney. Everyone is looking to tell you.

31:28

I just took my dad there. He was visiting from out of town and we sat next to.

31:31

He wanted to be seen by the.

31:35

Sat next to Annette Benning. He's like, is that Annette Benning? And I was like, dad, please stop staring at her. Oh, shit. That is Annette Benny.

31:36

Yeah, yeah. He said it very loudly.

31:43

Well, famous people go to Kismet, too, but they're just trying to have a good meal.

31:45

So I feel like Kismet is so good, but whatever I get there is always kind of goopy. Like, I would. I couldn't eat in front of a famous person at Kismet.

31:49

Well, you have to know what to order. You definitely have to what to order there, for sure. So, yeah, you want to go somewhere that, like, is quiet, but not so quiet that your conversation is going to be heard. So. Yeah. Anyway, it's a very talented balance. In this case, Sophie Turner, obviously, it lives in England and is in Europe and a very glamorous lady with her family. So I wish she has, like, kids on the Zoom. She does. She has two kids. Yeah.

31:57

It's so weird because I just think of her as a child.

32:19

I know. No, she's. She's a grown. She's a grown ass woman.

32:21

Cut this part out, but orange. She was married to a Jonas Brother.

32:25

Yeah. This was in the middle of the divorce.

32:28

Oh, so her kids are from the Jonas Brother?

32:30

Yeah, yeah. So she had two kids very young. She in, you know, she. She was very, very young when she had them. But okay, so she was looking to do something sort of out of the box and interesting, and she was interested. And then the SAG strike happened and we hit pause and everything kind of Ground to a halt, as you remember. And, you know, when we kind of came back to the conversation, we were talking about who else else could fit in the cast. And.

32:33

Wait, can I ask a super annoying question just for my. Myself and in terms of putting together a feature of this size, when you have the meaning, is there already an offer in play? Like, is there already, like, something that you've told her? This is her agent. Your agent is. Told her agent, we can pay this much or give this many points or this is what the budget is?

32:56

Yes, I think they go with a. Well, you know, they. They go with a very broad idea. So here's the scope. Right. Like in our case, this is a very small movie, so she needs to go into this knowing this is not a payday project, this is a passion project. The exact number. No, they figure that out, you know, once the actor is in love with the project and.

33:16

Sure, sure. But if they have a sense of scale, they can kind of ballpark what's commensurate with that movie. Right. You know?

33:36

Yeah. And honestly, like. Honestly, I. I have always sort of, in a weird twisted way, appreciated that because it weeds out the actors who are just. Just not interested in not being paid, which, by the way, totally all good. Just get your bag, you know, but this ain't the one. And so it really. It's like, only people who are excited about the material even go to the point of having a meeting with you because they're not making any money on the movie. So in a way, it sort of like, gets to the point a little bit faster.

33:44

But don't you think there's like. Like, if you're an actor, if you're Sophie Turner and someone's like, hey, they want. Here's a script. It's great. Great director, great everything, they want to make it for $100,000, then you're like, well, is there going to be, like, hair and makeup? You know, like, is there going to be word, like, am I going to be able to get my sleep so that I'm rested for them. Like, there's probably some minimum budget that you have to have to support someone.

34:13

I don't think the agent would even pass it forward if the agent didn't, A, know the producers and trust the producers, and B, know that there was at least some. Some bar. Right?

34:37

Yeah. Yeah.

34:47

Okay. It's not going to be 100 grand.

34:47

Right. And that's also what the SAG scales are for. Or.

34:49

Exactly.

34:52

You know, like, you do, like, okay, if you say micro budget, like, Then. Then maybe, you know, it's got. It's got to be more of a personal relationship. Let's say there's plenty of filmmakers who get actors at. On micro budgets, for sure.

34:53

Yeah. And I think a smart actor knows the questions to ask, right? So they're kind of like. They know, okay, so, like, how many takes are we doing? What's the vibe? You know? And they can look at the script and can say, yes, this is. There is a world where this is possible if everybody's really on our shit and X, Y and Z happens. So. But no, they don't go with like an exact number, like a contract ready to go. I think it's just much more of a broad conversation. Again, I'm not like a producer. Producer, but that's my understanding.

35:07

And we know that you. That you don't have a website, so. Did she.

35:35

How did.

35:40

How did. Did she. Had she seen any of your work?

35:40

Calling me up.

35:42

Sorry, I. I'm really encouraging.

35:43

You don't have a website, but you have made like, like four other movies.

35:44

You have a production company, you're repped at uta, you've been to every festival.

35:48

Yeah, yeah.

35:52

That's why I'm saying maybe you're beyond needing a website. But.

35:53

Yeah. Yeah.

35:57

But I guess for me, if I was meeting with Sophie Turner and someone's like, well, what should we tell her about you? Aside from the script you wrote? You wrote?

35:57

And be like, agencies have. Agencies have little packages, like, ready to go, basically. So, like, for each of their clients, they have like two, three, four pieces of materials, a little bio, a little whatever, and then it's all on the phone. So it's like, you know, because he. He will call. He picks up the phone and he calls Jane in England and he pitches the project and then follows up, and then it's probably one film. It would be like one feature film in this case. It was probably lucky, my film lucky. So, yeah, it really just. It's all that kind of like, ready to go package, and then they tweak it a little bit here, a little bit there. The good agents.

36:03

Yeah. Yeah. Oren, I think that maybe like. Like the. The website stuff that's like, for commercial directors, right? Because we have to prove that we've done it before, right? Whereas, like, I think, and we've talked about this on the show, there is a class of director where it kind of looks sweaty to have a website. Do you know what I mean? Well, like, you know, like, I think.

36:40

I think that's changed a little bit. And we do have. We. Like, five years ago, every super cool director, like, would make their website be like, here's a picture of me and here's my agent's contact info. That's all. You get it? You know, But I do think now you'll see a director. You know, a lot of directors that have been on the podcast. Here's like, a trailer for my episode that I did. Or here's like, my.

37:01

I actually love that. And you can make it, like a little creative project. Yeah, no, believe me, it's on the to do list for sure.

37:20

But you totally answered like, you. Your. Your agent has a custom package.

37:25

Yes.

37:30

That.

37:30

That goes with the. With the delivery. But I will say I also think it's the script. And I think, you know, that at the end of the day, if it's not for money and it's not for clout, it's gonna be the script. So I don't even know if they even are watching the films. Right.

37:31

It's a tiny bit of pushback, though, I think. Absolutely. The script is the thing, but I think you have to have a pedigree. Right. In order for the door to even be up in the first place. Right. UTA is calling. Right.

37:45

Has a pile of 100 scripts he can read.

38:00

Yeah.

38:02

At least.

38:03

So having a good agent, you know, who's. Who's smart and understands the project and can pitch in the right way is important. And then also, like, oh, you've made a bunch of awesome, cool movies. And, like, I'm not sure of, like, how many awards they've won, but I'm sure they're leading with whatever the coolest, most prestigious.

38:04

Yeah, they say, oh, her last film played at Southwest.

38:20

Right. Exactly. Da, da, da. And yeah. Right. So, like, that just, I think, frames the conversation. So I just. I don't want people to be like, well, I've got a great script. Why won't Sophie Turner do my movie?

38:22

Absolutely.

38:34

It's a. It's a couple. You know, it's a decade worth of hard work leading up to that.

38:34

And the one leads to the next. Leads to the next. Right. So, like, when I go and I am pitching my wares for my next project. Right. You bet your ass the agent is going to say, oh, well, she worked with Sophie Turner, so then you should feel comfortable working with her. You know, in fact, that's been a roadblock for me in the past is, you know, as I've gone out for, like, larger studio projects or something like that, one of the questions is always, like, well, can she cast? Right. So when they ask that question, can this director cast ask what they're really saying is, is Charlize Theron gonna run for the Hills? Which she sees that this person has never worked with a celebrity before. So it's. It. It is. And it is totally that, like, cart before the horse that we all deal with all the time, which is like, well, someone's got to give me the chance. Right? Like, how do you know if I can do it until you.

38:39

You need to stack these different validation tools. And that's. And I think it's a. I mean, we just. We have to remind ourselves, too, when we're getting pushback. And you said, oh, agents have an, you know, some negative connotation to them. It's because they. Yeah. If an agent gets a script from someone they've never heard of, some kin in Michigan emails them something and says, hey, I'd love to talk to your client, you know, Keanu Reeves. But even if your agent, you have. You're at UTA or at CAA or at ICM or whatever, some place, and you can just write that on the script and send it to an agent, and they're like, oh, this person's repped at ca, of course.

39:23

Well, they know each other.

40:00

Right?

40:01

So, like, for this. In this instance, Right. Like, Jane probably knows that Houston has great taste. Right. And so it's. It is actually. It is still a people business where, you know, she. She says, oh, he. He knows really good stuff. So I'm gonna actually put this one to the front of my. Of my deck and whatever it is. And, you know, that actually segues really nicely into Kit coming on board because of the. Of course, Kit only read because Sophie sent. Right. So I didn't send it to Kit. Sophie sent it to Kit. And, you know, he read because he trusts and loves Sophie. Right. So that. That is very much still, I think, how the world works.

40:01

Yeah. A total aside, but at this meeting I had today with this producer, he told me he puts every script he gets into Speechify and it turns it into, like, audiobook for him.

40:40

Yeah, they all do that. Yeah.

40:51

Really? So they do.

40:52

While they're driving.

40:53

It is easier at least to get people to.

40:54

Have you tried it?

40:56

It drives me absolutely insane. Insane. I used to work in the writer's room, and the writers would, like, the scripts were really long, and so they put them into Speechify and listened to them. And I literally. I had to leave the room.

40:57

As a guy, serial killer behavior, it

41:09

is psychotic to do this.

41:11

Yeah.

41:13

But, you know, but if you get people. If that. Now it means Kit Harrington can read six scripts, you know, this movie.

41:14

Sure, sure. At two and a half speed. Read by a robot. Yeah, that's true. A living nightmare.

41:19

As opposed to read by his, his inter.

41:25

Well, so I'll bring up, you know, we've talked about it plenty of times, but there's a reason that Jim Cummings will do a radio play of his screenplays so that people can do that. But he gets to put the same sort of intonation and spin onto every single character that he wants to do for that reason. Right, so, like, smart. Yeah, it's smart.

41:28

Smart, helpful. That he's a good actor.

41:44

Yeah, sure. And is oftentimes the star of the, the thing that he's pitching.

41:46

I think if I did that, people would be laughing out loud in their cars.

41:50

You know, though, you can do it with like a table read of friends and things like that, you know. Anyway, we digress. We digress. But so, so Kit comes on board, right? And then there's the third piece to the puzzle. Let's talk about Marcia a little bit.

41:54

Marcia's such a legend. I mean, her name came up and I was, I. She's always scared me a little bit because she reminds me of my mom.

42:06

So that's how I feel about Kathy Bates.

42:14

Yeah, sure. I loved the idea of Marcia. And obviously she had done a little bit of horror, right? The man, you know, she kind of dipped her toe in, but not something like this where this would just be like a completely out of left field sort of choice for her, which was exciting for me. So we sent her a script and she liked it. And she really drilled me in that first meeting. She was like, she's tough. She's like, in what ways?

42:16

Like, how did she drill you?

42:42

It was like being back at NYU or something. It was like, well, what is, what does this mean? What does this mean? I actually changed like two or three things in the script because she nailed my ass. She was like, that doesn't make sense. And I was like, you know what? You're absolutely right.

42:44

You're like, you got me. But that's probably the test, right? It's like, hey, if I come as an actor, come and tell my director that I, I, I'm not connecting with this line of dialogue because of this action. And my director is listening and not saying, just do that line of dialogue. That means we're working together. And yeah, I think that's cool about

42:57

Marsha as well, though, is that she wasn't coming in and saying, this doesn't make sense. She was saying, explain to me why you wrote it this way. She has a real. She has a real curiosity about the work, and she takes it very, very seriously. Right. So it's not about vanity for her or, you know, this, that, or the other thing. She really just wants the work to be something that the audience can completely lose themselves in. Right. So she doesn't want them to ever sort of, like, step back and know that they're watching a movie and that they're watching Marcia Gearden. Right. So. So that was great fun, and I loved it. And I kind of, like, ended the call, like, not knowing if she liked me or liked me or anything.

43:14

I think to Orin's point, maybe, like a test is probably too strong of a word, but it is a good way for you two to understand how you work together. Right. Like, let's just kind of let the rubber meet the road immediately.

43:52

Yeah.

44:04

Are we gonna click do. Is our process close enough that this is gonna work or not? Right? Yeah, like, just dive in. That's great. I love that.

44:05

Well, and she's worked with some of the greatest of all time, Right. So she knows what the fuck she' doing, and she wants to know if you are going to also be serious about the work, you know, so she was really. Yeah, she was the third piece of that puzzle. And then we filled out the cast with Lawrence Forane, who's an amazing Irish actor and is like, actually one of my favorite parts of the movie. He's absolutely fantastic. And then some other actors, including Johnny Howard and some. Just some great English actors who came out to join us. And that was it. That was the full cast.

44:12

I'm curious when you. So, you know, it's kind of a smallish cast of kind of these. Every character, they're. They're. I mean, those three are in many, many scenes.

44:41

Yeah.

44:49

Did you design, like, when you wrote the script, were you like, hey, I want to kind of make this contained? Yeah, you wrote it kind of during Coven too, right?

44:49

No, this project has been ever so.

44:57

Right, yeah.

45:00

Yeah. So this was actually the project that I had in my back pocket after I did my first feature film. So that was in 2018 when I was kind of taking that around festival. This was the movie that I wanted to do next. So it just goes, you don't know what the hell is going to happen. So. No, I had it. I had it with me for a long time. It was extremely bare bones, and then it got bigger, and then it got smaller again once we had, you know, the actual constraints of budget and time and all of that. So there was a version where, you know, they go to town and you see the market, you see, like, more of the world. But the core of it was always isolated because really, what I loved was the idea of these two women living in isolation and sort of that imagery of, you know, these. These women in this very desolate landscape. And so really, the. The scarcity of it was always such a. The main meat and potatoes of the project.

45:01

Right. And their codependence is kind of like the main kind of relationship crux of the relationship.

45:50

Ain't nobody else out there, you know, so they really only have each other, of course, until Kit comes back into the picture. So, yeah, it was always very, very bare bones.

45:55

That's cool. So the movie, for those that haven't seen it, it's.

46:04

It's.

46:07

It's a psychological thriller with some, I would say, supernatural elements, though it's questionable whether they're supernatural or not. And I. Part of the way that you. You tell the story is through kind of dreams and flashbacks and. And obviously that's a device that's common in. In cinema history and that especially in, like, kind of horror and psychological tension and psychological thrillers. Can you talk a little bit about the way you approached it and how you did it and visually? And did you find some of it in post, or was there a plan to get into people's minds?

46:07

Yeah, yeah. So I. To me, it was always, you know, less of, like, necessarily feeling like flashbacks, as much as there's different timelines in the movie and there's different perspectives. So, you know, each of the storylines or the threads really is the way to think of them have their own unique visuals and tone and, you know, they're almost like different films within the larger film. And so that was always sort of tonally something that we wanted to do. And Julia, my DP and I did quite a few tests.

46:38

Shout out Julia Swain, who was an old Julia Swain Matt's worked with multiple times. Many, many times. Yeah, she's the best.

47:12

Amazing. Yes, that's.

47:17

Right now she's too busy making movies, so I don't get to hire as much. She's like, sorry, I'm in England right now, or wherever, you know.

47:18

Yeah. She only speaks Cornish. Fun fact. Only speaks dead language.

47:25

Yeah.

47:30

And so Julia and I, you know, we built out our luts and, you know, we really made a lot of decisions before we went into the field of how each of those storyline threads would sort of feel unique. And so they all sort of thread together. And I think that's something I'm interested in generally is that the idea that you're not watching one film, you're sort of watching with Lucky. It's kind of like the movie changes over the course of the film from Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. With this one, it's sort of like they're all sort of interwoven with each other.

47:31

But I think one of the storylines is more interesting is just it's the present day characters as kids, right?

48:02

Yeah.

48:09

They're kind of like over like rhyming storylines or.

48:09

Yeah.

48:12

Filling in context.

48:13

You're seeing in their childhood in this sort of like nostalgia of what was before, in contrast to sort of desolation of their adult lives.

48:14

It's so funny. Wait, sorry, sorry. Interrupt. Matt, but we make fun of LUTS a lot. You know, just because there's so many people.

48:24

We make fun of people who are like, get the cinematic look with this incredible luck pack.

48:30

You know, your movie to look like the Matrix or John Wick. Get the John Wick lut and then you get it and it looks nothing like Donald.

48:36

Yeah, I got bad news for you.

48:41

Yeah. But that use of when you're making a feature, a TV show or anything where there's just kind of these different looks that you want. Want to capture, it's kind of this great onset tool. I don't know why. Have you done that before, Matt, where you're like, we're going to shoot this scene on set, we'll have this LUT and we'll monitor in this light and kind of trying to push tone in the same piece in different directions.

48:43

Not, not in the same piece. Certainly for each. You know, when you're dealing with 30 second spots, you know, you're kind of. But you are dialing in that singular look.

49:05

But you know, even in our past when we've done like the episodic stuff,

49:13

sure, I, I would, I would keep a consistent look throughout. But I think to Natasha, like, I wasn't ever shooting things that were where you were switching between time periods or points of view or anything like that. You know, I'm so fascinated and envious of somebody doing that because it's so. It sounds so cool and it's like both like formal and theoretical at once. Like you're literally doing something. But also it's kind of like highfalutin. But I always feel like I would do the tacky version of it, you know, like you remember in traffic, like, everyone was like, wow, boy, this is so cutting edge. And you're like, it's like Blue in Washington, D.C. and it's, you know, beige in Mexico. This is way too much. And I feel like I would do the bad version of that. Will you ever. How did you calibrate your taste to make it feel, you know, distinct but not tacky is what I'm asking.

49:17

Right. It's because we start big and then we go in. So it's not like we're like, oh, be dope for D.C. to be blue, California to be gold. This is the overall look of the movie, right? We know we want to go anamorphic. We know we want to. Want the tease. We know we want, you know, we're going to use these wacky portrait lenses at some point. Like, we figure out the overall language of the film first. And then, you know. And by the way, that includes lighting. So I'm talking a lot about camera and lensing and color, but that includes lighting. Right? So, like, the, the, the, the. The. Those choices are also part of that macro conversation. And then we start to break down the script and we say, okay, well, this thread is about this, so it should feel more warm. Right? We're talking. We talk in terms of emotion. We talk in terms of. We talk technically, too, because Julia and I speak that language together. But really it's about the feel within the larger macro vision. And so I think because of that, it's not like we're completely changing lanes. It's like, oh, no, we're putting down that paintbrush and we're picking up that paintbrush, you know, but it's still part of the same canvas.

50:10

Yeah, I love that.

51:16

That's.

51:17

That's cool. Yeah, I mean, I do. I guess I do a lot of times, like, okay, we're going to shoot this in the wide with the wide lenses and this and the. Yeah, this will be kind of lifted blacks, but kind of just doing. Using the lut on set is like a nice way to. It's like playing the right music for, you know, when you're doing on set is cool.

51:18

We. We work with an artist. We work with a colorist named the Laster Arnold at photochem. So he is our secret weapon, really. He's done Lucky Abraham's Boys, this film, so he's a real collaborator. And.

51:35

And he's. He's helping you design those luts in advance of the shoot.

51:48

Yeah, like the preview.

51:52

So we go. We shoot. We. We go to Panavision. We get the lenses that we know we want, we shoot test material, and then we bring that material in for a day. We sit with Al and basically tweak until we're happy. And then we slap it on on set and pray.

51:53

And it's just like, hey, guys, this is, this is look one, this is look two, this is look three. And you can just.

52:07

Yeah. So our camera teams, our, our camera teams do have to be pretty on their. Because we upwards of 5 or 6 luts per film, which is a lot, you know, for a little movie, for we're making indies. And so that is actually pretty. That it's kind of a lot. And so the rules are something that Julia and I share very early on. So we actually make like these little deliverable packages that go to the assistants. It goes to everybody in the team so that there's no confusion, right. That it's like, this is the look, this is the feel. So then even when she's at checkout, you know, I usually come by for an hour or so and we look and we make sure we still, we, we preview all of the luts, we preview all of the lenses. We make sure still makes sense with what we had prepped.

52:12

I, I, Natasha, I love that so much because it is the perfect merger of the highfalutin ideas with the practicality of. This is how you literally pull it off. Right. Like, Right. So it's not just theoretical. It's like, no, like, let's, let's. On not just a technical level, but on, like, on a communication level. Like, are you laminating the sheets? Or like, literally, how are you distributing it to people?

52:51

We have in the past. Yeah, yeah, no, with this, it's just People just pull it up on their iPhone.

53:14

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

53:19

But yeah, it is that same idea. And so there's a lighting package, there's a camera package. There's, you know, there is communication there, I think from as early as possible.

53:20

I'm assuming you're shooting all the story, the separate threads at the same time. Like, you're doing all the kids at the same time.

53:30

Yeah, it's crazy. We had a such a, we had a eight. It was 17 days with one day, half day of pickups for, like, some stunts and stuff. So you're just going so fast. I mean, you're, you're looking at, you know, you're shooting. Yeah, like, all the kids, I think we shot in one day. So all the stuff with the kids in those different places was one day.

53:37

Did you do any green screen Stuff or anything like that? No, everything 100 on location.

53:55

We're on location. Yeah, yeah, we're on location. There's like a pickup shot of, like, someone reaching into a basket of vegetables. That's my hand in California.

54:01

Oh, yeah. I did think that looked kind of Californian.

54:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, wait a minute, it's very busy.

54:12

That one shot was golden brown.

54:14

Yeah, exactly.

54:17

So how.

54:17

We're dunking on Steven. Or Steven Soderberg, too.

54:18

Leave Stephen alone.

54:22

Yeah, yeah, true. I know we have to wrap up soon, but I feel like I still. I. There's still a little more answer left to my question, which is. Yeah, like, in terms of just creating these scenes where. Where you want the audience to not exactly know if it's a dream or if it really happened, because. Are there any kind of just craft things that you did? Aside from.

54:23

Yeah, I mean, I think you try to keep the language, the visual language. We're talking a lot about camera. But I think it is really important, you know, if we're using Steadicam to generally. Whenever we follow Sophie around. Right. Like, we're Steadicam behind her roughly on, you know, roughly this lens, at this distance. This is generally the language we use when we're filming her. Try to use that same rule, but with the little girl, you know, framing the same. And so that is a nice way to sort of keep it all in the same world. Right. Rather than completely changing your visual language. And suddenly now you're on, you know, a dolly or something, you know, so it's. It's, I think, trying to keep it somewhat consistent. It's also post, you know, like, so much of it comes together. My editor. I've literally been working with the same editor since we were 19 years old. Gabe Di. He's amazing. And I was. Someone asked me the other day, actually, we were talking about, like, when, you know, a movie. Movie is finished in the edit, you know, Whoever said movies aren't finished, they're abandoned. I think that's partially true. And. And, you know, I was really like, I. I don't think it is up to me. I think Gabe turns to me and says, we're done.

54:42

You know, like, you're starting.

55:53

Yeah, yeah. Listen, I've got a toothpaste commercial starting on Monday.

55:56

He would never. No. Yeah.

56:00

Is there anything you like on your collaborators and post on this movie, like. Like a technique or an editing or like something in some interesting takeaway? Because I. I do think you have. You talked about the. The kid kind of parallel story. But there is also this kind of, like, demon character.

56:01

Yeah.

56:18

That you don't know if it's real or not.

56:19

Yeah. Yeah.

56:21

And.

56:23

And, yeah, there's him.

56:23

And it felt different. It felt like when I was watching the movie, I was like, I don't know if this is real or not. It felt like the camera angles were kind of low looking up. It felt like more cutting, I would say.

56:24

This movie was. Was truly wild. So this was coming off of doing a movie in California that was like, actually the opposite. Like, it was a very sort of, like, chill set in California, you know, Cali crew. And it's, you know. Yeah. I mean, compared to. Yeah. The madness of the English coast.

56:35

Drink tea, like, every hour there.

56:55

Don't even. I can't even get into it. Yeah. And so I think it was. It was actually one of the more wild sets that Julia and I had been on. So if anything, I think there was a little bit more loose in this movie, which is maybe what you're feeling is. Is that we were, I think, making more decisions on the fly than we normally would.

56:56

That. That's the same thing.

57:15

Which is interesting.

57:16

Yeah. Because I. You know, we hear a lot from, like, indie filmmakers, like, oh, sometimes it's better. It's easier or just smarter to, like, codify, like, the visual language. Right. Rather than being totally prescriptive in terms of a shot list. Right. Like, if, you know, this is how we shoot our coverage, this is how we shoot dialogue. This is how we shoot this character versus that character, and that becomes a rulebook. Then when the location falls through or an actor is an hour late or whatever, you can pivot and it all still feels like the same movie.

57:16

With that said, I do still believe in having shot lists.

57:49

Sure.

57:52

I agree with that. As far as boards go. Right. Storyboarding and ending is an indie. Is an act of insanity.

57:53

Sure.

58:00

You know, there's literally no point because it's all going to be different in 30 minutes. But I do think a flexible shot list is. Is really key. And without it, that's when panic can start to set in. And so to have that shot list there, of course, with flexibility, of course, with mobility, but at least, you know, you have it in the can, you know, and you have what you need. And we have our transitions. We have our, you know, those. Those four or five shots that we really need to tell the scene. You don't have to be kind of panicking in the moment as shit is falling apart in front of your face. You know, you can kind of Have a path or.

58:00

I think sometimes, like when I personally panic, my. My coverage just becomes simpler. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, well, if I'm not sure I've got it, then I know that two singles and a medium wide, I can absolutely cut the scene. But that's a boring way to shoot a movie, right?

58:36

Yeah. And I think Julia is really great about that, where I will say, okay, well, to complete the scene, we need this, this, and this. And she'll say, okay, I hear you. But what if we did this, this and this?

58:56

But what if it was good, though?

59:07

What if it didn't fucking suck, Natasha. Yeah. So I think that's, again, that's like leaning on your collaborators and letting them come in from your perspective, right? Because we're thinking about, oh, shit, I'm gonna be sitting at this edit bay and he's going to look at me like, idiot.

59:09

Like, why didn't you get the hand?

59:24

Why didn't you get the stuff?

59:26

Get the vegetables?

59:27

Yeah, I didn't get it. I didn't get the vegetables. But we did. We got it for game. We got in California.

59:28

I never talk as much about how hard the shoot is as when I'm talking to the editor, you know, and I'm like, we would have had this shot. It was as planned. But then here's the thing.

59:33

They don't believe you and they don't care.

59:43

Yeah, I know.

59:46

It's.

59:47

It's just their perspective is so good. It's so. It's just hilarious. Yeah.

59:47

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59:55

But I think that the the, this was just an extraordinarily difficult shoot because like you said, we didn't do any green screen. There was no stage, there was no nothing. We were out in the elements, which was what we wanted to do. Like, that was the point. The rawness, the grittiness, the shit of being there was very important to us. But of course you then have to deal with it and, you know, so that was, I think that was the, the hardest thing, you know, not. We won't even think about visual language at that point. So that's why it was so important to sort of figure it out ahead of time so that we kind of could be on autopilot at that point in time. Run for the.

1:00:58

You could fall back on the set of rules and know it's going to be okay. Yeah.

1:01:35

What's your take on script supervisors? Or do you lean on them a lot? Or are you like, eh, I can take them or leave them.

1:01:39

You know what? They're so annoying, but they're so helpful. And we're talking about being in the room with the editor, like the number of times my ass has been covered by a script supervisor. You know, at the end of the day, no, they're completely necessary and, and they can be very, very good at their job. And there's a good way to be a script supervisor where you're not feeling like you're stepping on the process, but being helpful to the process. Right? Yeah, it does a tough job. Nobody likes.

1:01:47

It's a tough, tough job.

1:02:14

But I have been in a situation where I'm like, look to the script supervisor. And I'm like, do you think we have the scene? Like, do you think we have the pieces we need? Because, you know, AD Is like trying to push you. We have like seven more scenes yet. Like, do we have something we can cut? And then I'm like, this person doesn't know.

1:02:15

Well, a good one does. A good one does. I. I really leaned on our. I really leaned on our script supervisor in England. He himself is a director as well, which I like working with scripties who, sorry, if they don't like me calling script script supervisors who.

1:02:30

Oh, it's a term of endearment in my eyes. So they don't like it. They don't like it.

1:02:42

I've worked with craft service people and they're like, don't call me crafty.

1:02:45

Don't call you crafty.

1:02:49

Oh, man, same person.

1:02:50

Supervisor.

1:02:51

Yeah.

1:02:52

I like working with script supervisors who are themselves directors because I really do. I really leaned on Edward in This process, because it was so crazy and things were constantly moving, but that he was actually very involved with rewrites. Right. So I would go home. Another thing people don't talk about is you shoot all day, you go home, you rewrite for the next day because of all the crap that happens during the day. So I really leaned on Edward quite a bit creatively, even to it, because I would say to him, hey, do you. Does it help me here? Does it emotionally make sense that this character would come into this scene this way and he would put on his director hat and say, yes, he was pissed off. So it makes sense. He's pissed off coming into this scene. So, you know, that's a good script supervisor. Right? Like, that's someone who's really thinking creatively. And yes, they're there to say the drink was in the left hand, not the right hand, but the real job that they're doing is what I was just saying of, of making sure the, the creative all makes sense.

1:02:53

And by the way, the left hand, right hand thing is it's nobody. It's so frustrating when you can't use a great take because it's just a problem. Yeah, I mean, sometimes, you know, it, it's not an issue, but sometimes.

1:03:46

Well, that's also like, you know, VFX is getting real snappy these days, so there is stuff that you can fix. And I do a lot of nasty tricks like that in post. You know, we're even, you know, don't tell nobody. But you can even sometimes split the screen a little bit, get a little more time on that side or however, whatever, if you need to buy yourself a little bit here, a little bit there, you know, I can tell David picture.

1:03:59

Yeah, he did that on every single shot in House of Cards.

1:04:21

Yeah, he's like, got like 14 different actors who aren't even in the same scene together. So I think I'm fine.

1:04:24

Well, so sorry, go ahead. I've got one kind of like, big broad question. Did you have anything? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

1:04:30

So.

1:04:37

No.

1:04:37

Okay. So, so yeah, like I said, I've got kind of a, a, a, a big picture question for you, Natasha, because it's, it's great. We talked to you a few years ago now like in, in the middle of the pandemic. And I'm trying to remember, we talked a lot about vhs, right? Like kind of the horror anthology and obviously Dreadful is, is a, you know, is a scary movie, we'll say, right? Like, but, but they're, it's tense. It's Tense, I guess. Mike, I'm curious about how you see yourself as a filmmaker and how your brand has evolved since we first met you. Right. Because I. I guess I kind of lump you in with like there was like a squad of like cool horror girls who were all like putting out movies and like, like you were like a friend group together, right?

1:04:38

Are you the one you introduced us to? Chelsea.

1:05:24

Chelsea Stardust and like a handful of those people.

1:05:26

Right?

1:05:29

And like.

1:05:29

Yeah, Chelsea Gigi.

1:05:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You were like a squad. Right. And. And that's not to say that the dreadful doesn't fit in with that mentality, but. But it feels like maybe it's a little bit less VHS and a little bit more art house. Right? Is that your. Was that always the.

1:05:31

I really see it as a drama. Drama, yeah. To me it's. It's a. More of a psychological thriller, maybe, if you want, but it's a drama and

1:05:50

like a Rosemary's Baby type of way where it.

1:05:58

Yes, exactly.

1:06:00

Right, yeah, totally, totally. So. So, you know, is that an intentional trajectory? Is that just kind of. I mean, you've been working on this movie for a long time, like you've been saying, so, like, you know.

1:06:01

Yeah, I mean, look, there is no plan. So let me just say that there is no plan. You know, my first film is. Is really not horror. I made a film called Imitation Girl for like a couple books in New York. And you know, we were really adopted by the horror community and I'm so grateful for that and it has allowed me to explore horror filmmaking and I love it so, so much and I love the horror community, but I don't think there's ever a world where I make a straight horror film from start to finish. Right. Like, it's always going to take a turn. It's always going to go left instead of right. It's going to zig instead of zag. And you know, that I think, is just my restlessness. You know, it's like I'm always more interested in where a film can turn and become something else. I think like even what my team and I did with, with VHS within the wrapper of VHS is still not completely straight VHS branded. Right. Like it's kind of its own brand within it. So I think that I will always have horror elements. I think there will always be fantasy elements, that will always be genre. But in the end, when I start working on a project, what I'm thinking about is the characters and their relationships with each other, not what is the horror sequence.

1:06:12

Sure. The Kills or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

1:07:25

Who's the monster? You know, that kind of stuff. I love that stuff. I think that stuff is vital, but that's not where it begins and it's not where it.

1:07:27

And listen, there are kills in this movie.

1:07:34

Yeah, yeah, don't worry. There's still blood and gun.

1:07:36

There's no punches being pulled. But yeah, that's really fascinating. Fascinating.

1:07:38

But it's a question of where the origin is coming from. Right. Like, what gets you pumped up when you sit down at your computer and you open up final draft, it's like. And for me, it's figuring out how these characters are navigating around each other. And so that is the one consistent thing that you'll always see.

1:07:42

Cool.

1:07:59

Love it. Awesome.

1:07:59

Well, do we know what your next movie is?

1:08:00

I'm working on it. It's. Yeah, it's another sort of sad, sad movie about people dealing with. With their issues.

1:08:02

And is it clear, like, which movie it's going to be like? It's not like you have like three or four movies and you're waiting for one.

1:08:08

There's a few. There's a few properties I'm chasing. So I really enjoyed doing an adaptation with Joe Hill's story and I'd love to do another adaptation, whether with Joe or with another material. And so I'm always sort of looking for material to adapt, but in terms of my own originated scripts. Yes. It's usually just one at a time that sort of.

1:08:14

I'm focused on awesome discipline.

1:08:33

That's great. I love it.

1:08:35

Well, we warned you about this next question in the email today, but we were wondering if from your experience on this movie, it could, it could be just your whole career also. But do you have any hot takeaways?

1:08:37

What's the big lesson that. Yeah, the exciting take from, from your film.

1:08:50

And it doesn't have to be the big lesson. It can just be.

1:08:54

Sure.

1:08:56

I know. Well, you said the thing about the letters, which I feel like is a little bit of a pessimistic hot take.

1:08:57

I love, I love pessimistic hot takes. Personally, the thing.

1:09:02

Yeah, yeah.

1:09:05

Do we can talk about that or we can just do something else?

1:09:06

Yeah, I mean, I had just said, you know, don't, don't. Don't put too much emphasis on the letter sending element of when you're going to cast. You know, they say, like make a little letter from the director. I don't even know if those things even end up getting attached in the end. I think they just go. The agents just go Straight to the script. So really, like, you really just are. You have to sort of move forward, assuming that they don't see anything except the script document. So that really has to be with what you are comfortable with, with going up. You know, that that's what they're seeing and that's what they're gonna be excited about or not excited about. They're probably not going to give a. About your letter and where you're from and all the power.

1:09:09

You saw their movie and it changed her life. But it's probably worth mentioning, like, by the way, you know, Natasha went to your high school.

1:09:47

Sure.

1:09:54

An interesting tidbit that you can mention

1:09:56

and have you remind me of my mom. No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that to. But that is part of. Of why she's terrifying, for sure. No, I. I guess I would say it's more just something I've learned over. I've been now making movies for too long. And I think that starting out there was this idea of, you know, move fast, get shit made. You know, make decisions quickly. Don't show, you know, don't show vulnerability. Don't, you know, hesitate on set. And I think, just shoot it. Yeah, just shoot it. Do. Just shoot it. That's good. No, I think the, the I'm. I'm coming to warm up a little bit more to the flip side of that, which is, you know, it is okay, actually, as a director, if someone asks you a question, it's okay to not know the answer to that question.

1:09:58

Sure. Yeah.

1:10:41

And it's okay to say, let me get back to you on that. You know, you don't have to be this kind of like ironclad, know it all spring forth from, you know, from the womb, ready to go with all of the answers. So I think that that is something I'm trying to practice. Practice for myself, but to allow a little bit more softness and vulnerability and humanity. Right. Because we're in a world now where people can sit in front of their computer for 10 minutes and have exactly what they want. And that's not fun. You know, the fun is the vulnerability. It is the human connection and the conversation and the not knowing and the figuring it out. So I think let's not like that messiness because it's what's going to make our work special.

1:10:41

I love that. I love in a pitch thing. So this was so I, I read your script. I loved it. This was. Was my plan was to do this and this and this. And then I was talking to My kid. And he said this and it made me realize the whole thing was totally different, you know?

1:11:21

Right.

1:11:34

And I should go this other direction. And I love sharing that because, you know, hopefully the person I'm pitching against is pitching like the first thing that comes to mind showing them that I didn't.

1:11:35

Oh, man. We could do a whole nother podcast on pitching.

1:11:45

Sure. Or about 10 years worth of. Yeah.

1:11:47

Yeah.

1:11:50

I, I do think not to be, be the constant contrarian, but I do think it's easier to be a director that says, you know, I, I am not familiar with that technology or I don't know or. That's a great question. I haven't thought of that. When you have, that's good. You're more involved when you have eight movies under your belt.

1:11:51

Hello.

1:12:06

Sure.

1:12:07

Then when you like could just cajoled like seven people to help you make your short film.

1:12:07

Sure, sure.

1:12:12

You know, one of my first jobs in la, I got it off Craigslist and it was like, it was a, an Emmy award winning. Come work, come work with an Emmy award winning director on this short film. And I was like, like, ooh, amazing Emmy or. And I like went to set and I met the person. I was like, cool, so what, what did you direct that you want an Emmy for? And he's like, oh, I, I didn't direct anything that I won an Emmy for. I was like, it said you're Emmy award winning. He's like, oh, yeah, I was in the sound editing department. Yes, we got an Emmy.

1:12:14

I won an Emmy. And I'm director.

1:12:36

I'm a director.

1:12:38

Hey, that's marketing, baby. It's Hollywood.

1:12:39

But I think, but it, it is. I, I do think like someone like a Ryan Coogler. You hear him talk about, he's talking just like, he just sounds so insanely honest, you know, and authentic when he talks. And I think that's like his superpower. But I could imagine him on his first movie on Fruit Veil Station saying, you know what? I haven't thought of that. Like, let's, let's figure it out when. And that's something that it maybe takes us like 20 years in the business to get to.

1:12:42

Yeah, well, I, I think there's also like, if you haven't thought about anything, then every time you answer that, there's also being unprepared.

1:13:06

I'm not saying don't be, don't, don't come unprepared to your set. But I think it's, you know, especially, I think like as a woman director, Honestly, people are. So you come into it feeling like, oh, if I show one ounce of vulnerability or one ounce of waviness, you know, doubt they're. They're going to eat me alive. Right. And true confidence is being able to say, you know what? I don't know, let me think about it for half an hour and I'll get back to you.

1:13:13

Yeah.

1:13:38

Yeah. Well, it's weird because I kind of see, you know, a director, like, your job is to be a decision maker. Maker, but sometimes that decision needs to be to, to consider the options a

1:13:38

little bit, to measure the weight of the decision. Right. Because I think the flip side is, okay, go green instead of yellow. Okay? Now you have to live with the consequences of being green the whole time when you should have taken a half an hour and known that yellow was the right answer.

1:13:49

And, and that's the experience of it all too. It's like, you know, what decisions you need to, to take your time on and which one ones are less consequential to you.

1:14:03

Right.

1:14:12

Sometimes a green versus yellow, it doesn't matter and you never think about it again.

1:14:12

And I also like to say, what do you think? You know, we had an incredible armorer on this film, Rich, who, who is a leather worker and an armorer. And, you know, this dude has spent way more time with guns and armor and this and that. So when he would come to me with a question, I would say, well, what do you think, Rich? Like, you're the, you're the one who knows all this stuff about 15th century metalwork.

1:14:16

Yeah. Or even like, like, if you, you frame it with like, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I'm going for. This is the criteria that would make this good or bad.

1:14:36

Here's the feeling that we're going for.

1:14:44

Yeah, yeah. Like, is this the authentic weapon that they would use is a different question than like, is this going to be really loud or, or would this be lethal or whatever. I don't know enough about guns, but, you know, you see what I'm saying, Like, if you, if you frame the context of like, why, what you're looking for, they can guide you for sure. And they relish. Right. Like, this guy spent his whole life caring about, you know, learning how to tan leather and, you know, sharpen steel and stuff. And so, like, you know, it's also trust.

1:14:46

I mean, they're going to, they're going into the field of battle with you. And so it's things, you know, like, I remember we had a night where we got completely rained out. So the scene with Kit and Shame, it's Lawrence the green scene where they. He sort of fights the night and kills the night. They. That was supposed to be a night. Night in the rain. It was like a completely different scenario. And it was just unsafe. It was totally unsafe. And, you know, we got to set and it was just not working. And we just called it and we said, okay, we know we only have 18 days, but this one's over, you know, And I think that's when the decision making, everybody says, okay, good, we're wrapping it up. It's a safety issue, you know? And then when you go and you do show that softness and that vulnerability, they know that, but it's okay. This is a real sincere question. And this is a collaboration built on trust. So it's. Yeah, it's. It's wavering between those.

1:15:15

Yeah. I do wonder when you hear the stories about, like, Kubrick, you know, demanding to see, like, 80 different cabs until he finds the right yellow, you know, cab, and then custom making the paint, like, is that him just flexing, hey, I'm the ultimate decision maker here, and what. What I want goes.

1:16:07

Or.

1:16:27

Or is there value? Or is he making a better movie because of this?

1:16:27

I think the answer is yes to both of those questions. And part of the joy of watching his masterpieces is, you know, that he's flexing on every single frame.

1:16:30

Sure.

1:16:39

And that's what you're paying to see.

1:16:40

So we. I think the economics were different back then. Right. Like, he's not asking for, you know, 80 swatches of yellow on his first film.

1:16:42

Film.

1:16:51

Right.

1:16:51

Though I'm sure he would have liked to.

1:16:52

He probably did.

1:16:53

He probably did, but. Right. But you have to have the money to pay the guy to go do it. And they might be annoyed to go shopping for all of that stuff, but they're being compensated. And it's okay to compensate a person to go do that work, because the movies, people show up in the theaters to see that. You watch 2001, 80 times. Right. Maybe you're on acid, maybe not. But, you know, like. Like, people are there. Right.

1:16:54

So I don't know that the industry is set up for him.

1:17:16

Another Kubrick.

1:17:20

Yeah.

1:17:21

Yeah, I. I don't think so. I think he was one, one, one and done situation, you know, he was at the right time, at the right place. Yeah.

1:17:21

Even though Michael Bay had a little bit of that stuff. Right.

1:17:28

Like, I think, yeah, Michael Bay still had to make his day. You know what I mean? Like, I Think the Michael Bay still had to answer to someone. Kubrick answered to God. And that was it. You know what I mean? Like, that was it. He was king, you know, that was it. And I don't know that our industry will tolerate that anymore. I don't know that audiences will tolerate that anymore, you know, because they're not paying enough money to justify the cost of it. You know, there's not enough liquid cash in the industry anymore to tolerate that behavior for better or for worse, you know, like, who knows what masterpieces we're not getting, you know, because everybody has

1:17:31

to shoot a movie in 18 days.

1:18:08

It's interesting. When I moved to LA and I used to be in engineer, so I came here and I knew very little about film. Like, I didn't have like, you know, Matt has like very educated film background from school and I like, had never like, I just heard about Casablanca, you know, But I watched the documentary about Stanley Kubrick. I don't remember anything from it other than this one scene where he had asked the DP, he's like, yeah, let's put a 25 millimeter lens on the dolly and have it, you know, go do this 30 foot move. And he went and talked to actors or whatever and he came back to set and he saw that the, the track was like, you know, five feet farther away from where he said. And he's like, hey, why is the dolly over here? And you know, I wanted on the 25 over here, closer to the actors. And the DP was like, oh, there was like a kind of a bump in the path there and there was a column that was kind of hard to work around. So we just moved the track back. But don't worry, we're just going to shoot it on the 50. It'll look exactly the same. And supposedly Kubrick like instantly fired him. Immediately fired him.

1:18:10

He's gone. I said, what? I said, yeah. Did I stutter?

1:19:05

A 50?

1:19:09

Yeah.

1:19:10

20ft away is going to look the same as a 25 from 10ft away.

1:19:11

Yeah. That dude did not know what he was.

1:19:14

Yeah. And I was, that's kind of cool. I, I wouldn't fire in you, but I probably, I mean, I've had so many times where I. Very different for you, Natasha. It sounds like you work with the same team every time, but where I'm like, yeah, you just made like four decisions that just seem crazy to me that I don't think I'm going to hire you yet. And in commercials, it's like a one day shoot. So it's easy to do that.

1:19:16

Yeah. I think with a project like this, you kind of need the mind melds with your. With your team, for sure. It's the only way to survive.

1:19:37

Yeah, I love that. I love that too. And I love that you found your people that are making you very, very cool. Yeah. Well, awesome.

1:19:44

Well, before we get to endorsements, Natasha, where can people keep track of you? How can they keep track of all of the awesome stuff you're working on?

1:19:51

Yeah, so I do have an Instagram, believe it or not, and I do use it to post about premieres and releases and trailers and all that kind of stuff, so it's an easy way to sort of keep track of what's coming up. It's Natakerm. So it's the first four letters of both my names. You can also follow my production company, Iliam Pictures, and the film comes out on February 20, so keep an eye out.

1:19:59

And where can people watch it?

1:20:22

So you can go to Fandango to see if it's playing at a theater near you. And it'll be out on VOD as well, so you can also rent it with it, stream it, whatever you want to do with it.

1:20:23

Love it. Awesome.

1:20:33

Amazing.

1:20:34

Well, do you have a few more minutes to endorse with us?

1:20:35

I do.

1:20:37

Unpaid endorsements. My unpaid endorsement. Get ready for this one, guys. Is these. These copper? Italian paperclips. Copper.

1:20:37

You know that copper is very expensive right now. That's why. Or maybe they're brand the wires from.

1:20:48

Yeah, yeah, they're. I don't know. The box is in Italian. Yeah, yeah, No, I said copper. But maybe. Maybe they're. They're heavy brass and they're. And they're kind of. Yeah, maybe they're brass.

1:20:52

Do you find yourself clipping a lot of papers these days?

1:21:02

I do, I do.

1:21:06

He's added it to his. What do you call the things in the script? The brads.

1:21:07

Yeah, yeah. No, look.

1:21:11

Oh, that is beautiful.

1:21:13

It's a beautiful heavyweight. It's extra large. It feels real, so it feels important. So, Natasha, you were right. I'm not paperclipping a ton of stuff. For sure.

1:21:14

Sure.

1:21:25

But, like, when you want to, like, give something a little bit extra importance and like.

1:21:25

Yeah.

1:21:30

A little judge, little zhuzh.

1:21:31

These.

1:21:33

They're Leone Del Aira paperclips.

1:21:34

I don't know.

1:21:37

It's all literally the boxes entirely in Italian.

1:21:38

Excellent.

1:21:41

I mean, I don't trust American paperclips. Who knows what they put in those things? I only get my paper clips straight From Italy.

1:21:42

I guess what I'm getting at is there's a class of paper materials and writing utensils that just feel like they've got an level of craftsmanship.

1:21:49

I do like that stuff.

1:21:58

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, it's an indulgence for sure.

1:21:59

Yeah.

1:22:02

But like it makes me happy.

1:22:02

It's fun. Yeah. Like stationary, Stationary shops are lovely.

1:22:05

Yeah, yeah.

1:22:09

They're much better than those shops that move around all the time.

1:22:10

So. So Italian paperclips, guys. The Leone brand is my favorite. Number seven of the biggest.

1:22:12

I will tell you that's a better endorsement than whole milk, but.

1:22:18

Well, great, that's wonderful to hear. Natasha, what you got?

1:22:21

You know what I want to endorse, actually. So as you know very well now, I have almost four month old kids, so I have not been really consuming movies or anything. I'm very out of the loop. But what I have been doing actually every morning is turning on KUSC California Classical Radio. And I have completely rediscovered the pleasure of listening to the radio with a host who. What's the station music? It's KUSD or what's the number? You know, I don't know, I just. It's. It's a KUSC streaming.

1:22:25

I think it's pretty low on the dial, right? It used to be. Or is it high?

1:22:56

I think it's 99.1. I think it's 91.5.

1:23:01

Yes, 91.5 K USC Classico, California. And it's just, yeah, it's just been really lovely hearing like a human voice in the morning. Sort of like talking to an adult. Chopin. Yeah, exactly.

1:23:05

It's very, it's very like, like if you can imagine a, a classical radio DJ voice, that's exactly what they're giving.

1:23:18

Like, like parody.

1:23:28

You can hear the, the leather arm patches on their elbows.

1:23:29

I love it, I love it, I love it. It's great. They do, on Sundays they do a live stream from the Met, you know, the matinee at the Met and you know, you can hear the audience wrestling and stuff. So yeah, it's just very tactile. And yeah, you just. There's a human being behind the microphone, which is really lovely way to start your day.

1:23:33

And no control again, right? It's just like, oh, this is. They're just playing what they're playing. I can't skip, I can't jump around. That's great.

1:23:49

I love that. Yeah, that was great.

1:23:55

91.5. I'll add it to my car.

1:23:56

Love it.

1:23:59

Yeah, do it. Put it on that speed dial.

1:24:00

Yeah. That I did endorse listening to music once, but it was. It had more context to that, but that, that was on par with just music in general.

1:24:02

You guys heard about music. It's pretty good.

1:24:13

I was like, hey, did you know you don't have to listen to pipe podcasts?

1:24:15

To be fair, you'd stop listening to music in your adulthood. And then you started listening to it again.

1:24:18

Well, I. I love. So I start. So I was listening to. Whenever I'd walk around or do something, I'd listen to podcasts and I never had an original idea.

1:24:23

Right. Sometimes it's nice to let your brain rest a little bit.

1:24:32

Yeah.

1:24:35

Okay, What I got, Matt, Tell me if I've done this before because I have a backup. Have I talked about, like, how I use icloud photos during shoots with a dit?

1:24:35

Yes, I think so, actually.

1:24:44

Actually, as an adversary, I work with

1:24:45

a DP who will do it as well. You mean like they'll upload stills and then you share them with their client?

1:24:47

Yeah, yeah.

1:24:52

But you. I'm pretty sure we've talked about it, but it's been years ago.

1:24:53

The reason I bring it. Brought it up. I thought about it is because we talked about the script supervisor. And if you can get it, it's hard. You know, we work with a lot of. We rarely hire the dit. And DIT is they can be amazing.

1:24:56

I did today, actually. Actually. Oh, cool. Yeah. For the first time when like you've worked with before.

1:25:10

Yeah, yeah, they can be amazing or they can be like the most annoyed person on set. You know, you're like, hey, did you download the footage? Like, no, I'm back. They just brought me the card like two minutes ago and they just made me move my whole station over here.

1:25:16

They are great,

1:25:31

but they're paid well. They don't have to do a ton. And also they're getting a nice kit fee for their supercomputer that they like the sweetest gig. Yeah. And they're in an air conditioned intent or whatever.

1:25:34

Yeah. Get over yourselves. Come on, come on, come on.

1:25:44

But so my favorite type of DIT and DIT is listen up, Call all the production companies I work with if you want a job with me. Is the one where, well, first of all, you need a camera team that is downloading a fair amount. You know, not like just at lunch and just at the end of the day. But like every, every time we change setups, let's download, let's change memory cards and the dit. Hopefully with the DP has set some sort of look and they are making, pulling stills and even giving them a little judging in the Da Vinci or whatever they're using. And they are making great JPEGs and they're. And this is the next step, which I talked to a lot of DATs. They're like, yeah, I'm just gonna put it on a Dropbox or G, like a Google Drive. And I'm like, no, please put it in an icloud photo album. Because we basically all have iPhones, sorry, Android people. And by the way, I've been working with this producer a lot that has an Android phone. And he. It's just, it's just like a, it's a, it's a real issue. Um, uh, but he, you know, the DAT makes a. An icloud photo album. I subscribe to it, the DP subscribes to it. And I put all the client, you know, the agencies, anyone that wants. I try to get him to like, invite all of them. And I say him because I don't think I've worked with a female dit in like the last five years, but I'm sure they exist. But then as you're shooting, you have just the, all the shots filling up in your phone. And so what's amazing is when you're coming back to a shot of a desk that had all these things on it and you're trying to remember, you can just see, oh, did we see the desk shot?

1:25:47

Yeah, where was things?

1:27:11

Because sometimes, you know, the script, he's like so obsessed with where everything was. And you're like, literally, it's not even in the frame.

1:27:12

Yeah, and you're like around with frame IO on the phone and it sucks. And why don't.

1:27:17

Why can't videos just. Why can't a Vimeo video. Why can't you just scrub it on your phone? Why is it taking eight hours?

1:27:22

I. I thought the reason that you were advocating for this is that when we rap and like, you know, the client or agency is off and they're, they're checking in with their bosses or whatever, and people are like, oh, how'd it go? They can be.

1:27:29

Got these freaking awesome.

1:27:43

Look how awesome these stills are.

1:27:44

Right?

1:27:46

That's, that's the move that I've had

1:27:47

people make materials off those stills that they got on set. Like, they like cut out the act, like in the background in Photoshop. And they're like, yeah, we already. It's just cool. And it's kind of collaborative and it's, it and it's beautiful. Like I look at my albums sometimes they're better than the. Than the work ended up with just the stills, you know.

1:27:49

That's a good point though about it just populating your phone because everybody has

1:28:07

I. Yeah, because if it's like go to Dropbox, go to G Drive. But as a continuity tool, it's also great if you have a camera team. Anna Dit. Because a lot of times, times I'm like, hey, it's lunch. Remember we had that conversation in the morning? And they're like, yeah, I haven't put it on icloud yet. And you're like, well then you're of no use to me because.

1:28:10

Right.

1:28:30

I want it during the day. Yeah, that's my unpaid endorsement is get a deal that doesn't hate you and icloud.

1:28:30

That's right.

1:28:38

Got it.

1:28:38

That's right.

1:28:38

Tools of the trade and Kusc Cusk.

1:28:39

That's right. Someone will be like, wow, it's a nice paperclip. Anyway, Natasha, this has been great. If you have questions for her or, or for us, you can email us@justshootapodmail.com or hit us up on DM usshootepod on Instagram. It's a good. If you're not following us on Instagram, I highly recommend it because it's a nice little reminder of shows coming out and you get like the little, little tidbits.

1:28:42

You don't listen to every episode. You get the best parts on Instagram.

1:29:03

Yeah, maybe not, not all of the best parts but like some good reminders.

1:29:06

So.

1:29:10

So yeah, check us out on Instagram and you can follow me me at mrmadenlo across all social media including letterboxd

1:29:10

and I'm O. Kaplan. This episode was edited by Kevin Oyang. Thanks Kevin. Our social media is done by Lily Bouvier. Thanks Lily. And the show is produced by Tyler Small. Thanks Tyler. And you're listening to music from the Free Music Archive and artist Jazzar. We will catch you all next time. Thanks very much.

1:29:16

Thanks. Goodbye.

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