9, 12, 10, 28, 2, 23. This is Deep State Radio, coming to you direct from our super secret studio in the third subbasement of the Ministry of Snark in Washington, D.C. and from other undisclosed locations across America and around the world. Hello and welcome to DSR's Words Matter. Your chance to hear from Norm Ornstein, the Oracle of Washington, D.C. How are you doing, Norm? Not well, David. This has been a very rough week, a very dark time. All of the murders from Brown to an MIT professor, to more boats blown up, but particularly for me for Robin, Michelle Reiner, this has just been a very traumatic time. Yeah, and I don't think you want to pass over the slaughter at Bondite Beach, either. Yeah, I sure do not. No, it was a very, very rough weekend, but I did want to talk to you a little bit about Rob Reiner, because for several reasons, one, I assume you know, I met him a few times in the context of Democratic things, but there's a very, very small sliver of the Washington community, the Democratic community in Washington, who has both not lost their sense of humor and who have actually some real connections to the world of comedy in Hollywood. And that sliver on the Venn diagram is just you. So I just wanted to know, you know, your whole sort of series of thoughts on it. I was actually pretty close to both Rob and Michelle. They were gracious enough to host a book party for the book I did with E.J. Dion and Tom Mann, One Nation After Trump, in 2017. Actually... When does that start? When does the part after Trump start? I, since you wrote the book, you probably know. Well, we had a brief respite for four years, but I don't know when we'll ever get under that cloud. And that book party was in the guest house where his son Nick had recently been living. And the party included, of course, a lot of his dear friends, including Larry David. Also just as an aside, Cheryl Hines and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. were there. And I had a conversation with him. This is back in 2017. He was already a conspiracy theorist and unhinged in many ways, but nowhere near what he is now. But that aside, and I asked Rob to narrate the documentary that we spearheaded on criminal justice and mental health, The Definition of Insanity. For any who want to watch, you can do so for free by downloading it at DOIFilm.com. Rob did it in part because we shared a reality, which is each of us were parents who had children who struggled with serious mental illness. And I would just note that while most of the focus on Nick has been on his drug abuse, which started at a very early age, and we know he spent many years wandering homeless before coming back. And they didn't talk much about the mental illness side because they thought it would infuriate Nick. But we had talked a fair amount about the struggles and that this happened. I just find absolutely devastating on a personal level, but also just more generally. And I've been communicating a lot with other parents since this happened who've had similar struggles and have not ended in quite this way, although for many of them it did end in tragedy, but not in their own demise. And about the helplessness that you feel as parents and about the reality that it doesn't matter how much money you've got, how well connected you are. And I think that's why some of these problems don't go away. Sometimes they get better, sometimes they get better for a while, and then they don't. Well, of course, we're up against several things there, right? As a society, we stigmatize mental health so that people are uncomfortable talking about it. We also devalue mental health in terms of any comparison with other forms of health. And we're faced with the same kinds of public support. It's very difficult for people who are facing challenges to get the care they need. And in fact, we've turned our jail system into one giant repository for a lot of people struggling with mental health. And we've turned the homeless camps in our cities into another one. And we've struggled with this because you've faced it and because you've talked about it. If you could talk a little bit about what we ought to be doing and what leaders in Washington ought to be prioritizing. So, first, one of the biggest problems that we have, frankly, is HIPAA, the law that appropriately protects patient privacy, but that is often used as a barrier or an excuse by practitioners to keep concerned family members from knowing what the status is of their relatives who have a serious mental illness. And that includes many examples. I have my own of somebody who you help to put in a hospital and then the hospital refuses to even tell you if your loved one is in the hospital and they claim HIPAA. Now, they misuse it sometimes for their own purposes and protection, but we need to strike a better balance when you have people who have a serious mental illness who have no insight into the fact that they're ill. And that's probably 50% or close to it of those who have one of these serious illnesses. And once they're 18, they basically can shut out anybody from providing treatment or giving vital information. That's a part of it. A second part of it, obviously, is that we have very limited insurance coverage for mental illness. We have a parody law, but it's a farce, frankly. You have insurance companies who say, yes, we abide by that parody law. We will provide the treatment. But in the area where you live, there is one psychiatrist or 50,000 people, and you can get an appointment six months from Tuesday. But if you're in a crisis, too bad. So we need to find a better way to deal with that. We need to train police. And it doesn't always work. But crisis intervention training, where police are taught not to escalate if they're facing somebody with a mental health crisis or somebody with any kind of crisis, instead of issuing orders that people simply cannot abide by. I say beyond mental illness, you have probably seen, David, another aside, the story about somebody who is deaf, who was confronted by ICE, tried to communicate using sign language, and they beat the shit out of them and hauled them away. They had no idea, no understanding. Our film was about, was a remarkable judge in Miami-Dade County, Florida, named Steve Leifman, who completely transformed the way that huge county, the seventh largest in America, dealt with people with serious mental illness in the criminal justice system. He's trained now, I think, close to 10,000 police officers, and they've cut the number of violent incidents and deaths dramatically. They actually got the city of Miami to have its bond rating improved because the wrongful Beth and wrongful assault suits went down, and they cut the number of arrests in half by de-escalating. But what they also did, which needs to be spread more widely, is to have a different process for somebody who runs a foul of the law, who has a history of mental illness, to give them the option instead of going to trial of getting treatment. And they find housing for people. They have a personalized program. They bring them back to the court regularly. And if they basically go along with whatever the program is for a year, they expunge the charges and it's had a remarkable and dramatic effect. Are people emulating it? I mean, it sounds like something every mayor ought to know about, right? We have taken the film around the country and there are other places that are emulating it or trying to. One of the problems is you've got to have, and by the way, they were able to close one of the three big jails in Miami-Dade County because of the lower number of arrests, and they've saved $12 million a year. So you save money, but you've got to convince the city councils, the state legislatures, and the mayors to make an initial investment. That includes providing housing. It includes finding beds for savings that are going to accrue over a longer period of time. You've got to convince the people running the jails. You have to, and this is what Leifman did that was quite remarkable, build a partnership between prosecutors whose goal is to prosecute and public defenders whose goal is to get people off, even if it means sending them untreated back out into the streets where they're likely to recycle through the system. And they're not natural partners, but they were able to do that. You need a champion, and we're finding it. Chief justices around the country are buying into this. Judges are, which is really important, but it's slow going. Is there a place that people can see the link to this and possibly add their efforts to help spreading the word? Yes. Go to DOI for definition of insanity. DOIFilm.com. There's all kinds of information there along with a link to the documentary itself. And you can honor Rob Reiner for what he did by going to it and watching this film. But the other thing is we need beds. I won't go at length through the history of this, but what we know is that when we had these hell holes of asylums, John F. Kennedy, in part because motivated by what had happened to his sister, Rosemary, who had a horrible lobotomy and had her life ruined, was determined to reform the system. And the reform was to close the asylums with the idea that they would set up community mental health centers that would be much more humane and to make it harder to send people away unless there was a good reason for doing so, all very good. But after he got assassinated, the asylums went away, but the community mental health centers did not emerge in big numbers. And when they did, and they began to really become robust, financed by the federal government, Ronald Reagan came in and cut it out and said, what, the states do this? And the states just weren't going to provide the money. So the reason we have this giant homeless problem in America, now, of course, Trump is contributing to it by blowing up the economy. But beyond that, it was the reality that people with serious mental illness often are out on the streets. And if they're picked up for one reason or another, there's no place to take them except jail. To stay up to date on all the news that you need to know, there's no better place than right here on the DSR network. And there's no better way to enjoy the DSR network than by becoming a member. Members enjoying ad-free listening experience, access to our Discord community, exclusive content, early episode access, and more. Use code DSR 2025 for a 25% off discount on sign up at the dsrnetwork.com slash buy. Use code DSR 2025 at the dsrnetwork.com slash buy. Thank you and enjoy the show. Need anything from Tesco? Like Nescafe Azir and 90 Grams Instant Coffee? For just £3.50 this Easter with your Tesco Club card. This every little helps. Majority of larger stores, a 0.90 gramms ends 14th of April. Club card or app required. And I think it's important for people to realize because Rob Reiner's son went through this, other people, everybody knows have gone through it. Say you're in this situation, you're in the street, the police see you as a threat, they can't help you. There is no healthcare mechanism to help you. There are no funds to help you. There are no constructive institutions out there that are available to most people. Homelessness is made more difficult when private equity firms buy at all the houses and all the prices of homes go up in America. And people are persecuted for mental health, for something beyond their doing, for something that's often genetic or environmental or both. In a way that we persecute almost no other group in this country. And I will say we use it, but I'm uncomfortable with the term mental illness because it implies that you could control it. And I will tell you that when we struggled with my son Matthew, a lot of our friends and neighbors, highly educated and smart people would often say to us, why don't you just kick them in the ass as if this were willful? And the term that is better to use is brain disease. And for people who are seriously ill, I will call it stage four brain disease. It's like any other organ. Except, except for some reason, we consider the brain a second class organ. If you have pathologies in any other organ of your body, your insurance company and your hospital help you, not your brain. Exactly. So now there are some people like Mark Wayne Mullen and Tommy Tuberville for whom the brain is a second class organ. But that's a different matter. I was trying to keep this on. I know. I have to try to laugh hard as it is sometimes. But if we did, it would be different. But let me also say that what I found so interesting is if you have somebody with Alzheimer's, an elderly person who has Alzheimer's or dementia, the way the system treats that person and the family is very different. It is, oh, OK, well, this person obviously has lost control. So let's talk to the loving family members about what we ought to do. It is, let's find a place, an institution where we can put somebody who needs memory care. But we don't have to rely on what that person says. We can ask the children or the spouse. We treat that completely differently than if it's a young person who has a brain disease that's not that different. But we won't let anybody else get involved. So it's, again, a reflection, I think, of this notion that, well, if you're older and you've lost control, you don't have any ability to understand what's going on with you. But if you're a younger person, you do. And of course, one of the other problems that we have, if you get somebody who's arrested for a felony, they send them to a place for restoration so that they can reach a point where they understand what they've done or what the charges are. We spend a fortune doing this. Sometimes people are there for years. And we bring them out because they've been medicated. They may have that understanding. We send them off to prison where they stop the medication and they're back to being ill again and then mistreated in the prisons, which after all, the largest repositories of people with mental illness in the country, as you alluded to, Cook County Jail, the L.A. County Jail, Rikers Island, they have guards who are completely untrained, making $12 or $15 an hour, working brutal hours in terrible conditions. And they mistreat people because they also issue orders. The orders don't get followed because people don't have the understanding. They throw them into solitary, which is the worst thing you can do for somebody who has a brain disease. And it makes them deteriorate. And it leads to a living hell for them and often death. Now, I have to say, once a long, long time ago, it's a very strange story, but I worked for a guy whose girlfriend was a psychiatrist and her specialty was family therapy. And she was doing some research. And he said, look, David, you're a smart guy. Could you go help her with this? I was 21 years old. She's out of school, 22. And I said, sure. And he said, report to this address. I go. I show up. It's Bellevue Hospital Mental Ward. At just the pits, at the very low point of funding for this. And I go in and the doors close behind me. And the scene was out of a 17th century asylum. People on the floor and puddles of their own shit screaming, clawing at each other, terrorized. Nobody there taking care. This was New York City on the east side in around 30th Street or something, wherever it was. And it was one of the most hideous scarring experiences that I've ever been through in my life. So anybody who's ever been exposed to this knows that we don't treat. You know, you wouldn't you wouldn't have a room full of people with a heart condition facing this in a hospital. But because of the way we categorize mental illness, it's like this. I think what people don't know is that you've worked very hard on this. And if you go where Norton just said to doifilm.com definition of insanity, the next words you see are a found object documentary from Gabriel London and Charlie Sadoff with support from the Matthew H. Ornstein Memorial Foundation, which is the foundation you set up about your son. You have done a ton of work on this. And I'm really glad to have the opportunity to talk about it. But it really does seem a way if you were touched or moved by the story of Rob Reiner to go watch it and see what you can do to solve the problem in your community. Don't solve the problem for the world. Solve the problem next door. Help get this film in front of the mayor or the police chief for the town council or your or your friends just have them over. Because I think you can start a bit of a movement that way. And I you may have other ideas, but I think it's a great a great way to do something. Thank you for that, David. And also, people want to find more about what we have done and are doing. You go to the foundation website, which is mornstein.org. Please, please, please do that. Now, you know, this is serious. This is very I mean, it's as grim a story as any of us know. And and I, you know, it's very hard for people to get their brains around it. But Rob Reiner, and again, I only met him two or three times. But one time, you know, we're talking for a couple of hours. In a group, a group of people. He was a menchi guy. And he he had obviously anybody who watched his movies or performances or saw him talk knew his whose father Carl Reiner was know that he was a very funny guy. And and a number of his close friends, including Larry David and Billy Crystal and Albert Brooks, who was his oldest friends from high school, did make a statement and it reflected on that. And I just thought before we leave the subject, I'd ask you to talk a little bit about, you know, what he what he left the world with in terms of movies and humor and what what lives with you from all of them. So, you know, first to talk about the movies, I actually over a number of years would regularly put on social media that Rob was the Frank Capra of this century. Frank Capra, for those who are not movie buffs, was the most talented director, I would say, of the talking film generation. Right. It's a wonderful life. Mr. Smith goes to Washington. It happened one night, etc. It's right. But Rob, in many ways, was better than Frank Capra in the sense that his movies covered so many different genres. And we're now getting, of course, lots of people talking about those. But if you look at the body of work from the mockumentary that really started that whole genre of spinal tap and now the new one, the spinal tap, too, through the Princess Bride, to, you know, coming of age stories, to the horror film of misery, to a few good men, to the Romcom, to end all Romcoms when Harry met Sally. And, you know, I could list dozens others that were a path breaking movies. At the same time, we got to remember that Rob and Michelle were incredibly important in terms of social justice. There is, there are millions of kids in California who got early childhood education and continued to because he created, through a referendum that he spearheaded and made work, using revenue from tobacco companies to finance early childhood education in California. And it's made a huge difference. I was with him as part of a group, which is now being ridiculed and was by that vile monster who happens to be the president of the United States, when Rob called and asked me to be a part of a group to investigate the role of Russia in our elections. And the hoax, the hoax would not love to be a complete reality and continues on, not the least of the reasons being the complicit behavior of Mark Zuckerberg on Facebook and Elon Musk on Twitter. And at the same time, he was just a wonderful person. He didn't have to throw a book party for us. I got in touch with him. I said, Rob, we'd like to do a book party. He said, wait, I don't do that kind of thing. He said, but send me the book. So I sent him the book and an hour later, he said, I just read the first two chapters. When do you want to do the party? And did an incredible job of it. And he just was a spectacular human being. They both were. The word mensch was made for somebody like Rob, who used his power and celebrity and resources to try and make this a better world, to battle back against thugs and autocrats, and to change the world of entertainment. And of course, he was also a spectacular actor. And Justin, an all around great person, and he and Michelle were terrific parents. That can't and shouldn't be lost in this. They did everything they possibly could for Nick, but they also have three other terrific kids. One, his stepdaughter, who was Michelle's daughter, and two other kids, the product of his 35 year marriage with Michelle. And just in part, I think, because his parents, Estelle and Carl were terrific parents, in part because of the incredible influence that his godfather Norman Lear and his, I suppose you could call him, his uncle Mel Brooks had on him. But it was built into who he was. And that they're both gone, but that they went in this fashion has just torn me apart. And it has for so many others, including those who don't know him. 500 orders a month was manageable. 5,000 is madness. Embrace intelligent order fulfillment with ShipStation, the only platform combining order management, warehouse workflows, inventory, returns and analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, ShipStation does him one. 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And, you know, I would add, I think you do justice to the films. Everybody always forgets an American president. I once wrote an article about films about Washington and, you know, and I covered a lot of things, including movies and TV shows that took it seriously and and and and and and and comedies. And of course, the two that you want gravitates to as comedies sort of coast the era of Frank Capra, were an American president and of course the classic Dave, which was about a guy who impersonates the president for a variety of reasons played by Kevin Klein. A great, great movie, both because there was something in them. They weren't American president was not a political movie, even though it was written by Aaron Sorkin and so forth. But but it was that there was in it a hint of what he hoped to see in a president. You know, part of the ROM in Romcom was a romance about what our leadership could be like. Yeah. And, you know, I think he did great justice to that. Obviously, Harry Mazzelli is a different kind of romcom, which is now responsible for the fact that every time I get misty eyed and think about love, I want a pastrami sandwich. But, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. I have what he's had, which, which by the way, was Rob Reiner's mother. Yes, it's still in in in that scene. Anyway, you know, it I think of all of these events. I mean, what happened in Brown was terrible. What happened in Bondi Beach was terrible. The American reaction, you know, you know, from this sort of gun numbed culture was terrible and the worst of it. And in huge contradistinction to to Rob Reiner, of course, is the president. And as I said, on a different podcast, not even our podcast, but at a different podcast, you know, you got to ask yourself, how did the most despicable piece of shit in America become president? He said, you know, there are 340 million Americans or whatever it is. He's not even, you know, in the bottom 10 million. He is the most despicable piece of shit in the country. And 70, 80 million Americans said, oh, yeah, that's the guy who should lead us. And it's not, you know, it's not just that he said horrible shit about Rob Reiner or made it about himself. Or when asked by the press, he reiterated the comments. The day before when asked about the Brown University thing, his response was, things happen. This man is indecent. He's a he's a blot on the history of humanity. And anybody who ever I listened to a couple of people yesterday saying, well, you know, some of his achievements, anybody who treats him as anything other than something that we should all want to scrape off the bottom of our shoe is doing a disservice to the country, because they elevate him above the level he is at. And I just thought while we're wrapping this up, that I would give you a chance to unburden yourself. So first, let me say, how did he get there? There's somebody who escapes blame for this far too often. And that is Mark Burnett. Mark Burnett created the apprentice. We now know from some of the things that people have leaked, even though they have non disclosure agreements, that he was just as big an asshole and a horrible person doing the apprentice as he is now. But all of that stuff, including film footage outtakes, Mark Burnett has managed to deep six along with NBC. They created this vision of somebody who was this brilliant billionaire executive. When it was all made up, and all he did was read lines. So that vaulted Trump into a different level of celebrity status that gave him the base on which he could eventually run for president. And we shouldn't forget that. Now, what we also know is, and this is a chilling thing to me, David, if we get out of this, and in 2029, we end up with people seeing how monstrous this evil man and the evil people around him have been, how they've destroyed the global world order, how they have destroyed the American economy, how they have basically eliminated decency. And we end up with a decent president and Congress. What troubles me is four years after that, if things aren't going terribly well, there's another pandemic. If there is a global recession, if something else happens, we could easily see a majority of Americans who forgot what it was like saying, okay, throw them out, bring in whoever else is standing there, and we could end up with the same problem again. And that's what happened this time. People knew too many of them. Some of them just don't pay any attention to any of it. They knew they didn't like the way things were, so they were going to throw the ins out and bring the outs in. And we ended up with this monster. But let me say that, you know, when you look at his reaction to Brown, you look at his reaction to Kirk, Charlie Kirk. You look at his reaction to Rob Reiner. This is what a narcissistic sociopath does. He has no empathy. His empathy, to whatever extent it exists, is for somebody who kisses his ass and praises him over and over again, and who he sees as a supporter. If it's somebody who isn't, he will revel in their death. And that's an unfortunate... And that's, by the way, why the diagnosis is malignant narcissism. It's not like your aunt who wants to be the center of attention at Christmas, right? This is malignant. It is pathological. It is destructive. And anybody who is aware that it is pathological, that it is destructive, that it does undermine the health of the American people, the security of the American people, the health of the United States, and who tolerates it or papers it over. And I'm looking at you, Mike Johnson, and I'm looking at you, Suzy Weil, and I'm looking at you, Fox News, and I'm looking at everybody else who just, Mark Wayne Mullen and Tuberville, to be sure. But also John Thune and all the respectable Republicans, and, oh, you know, John Federman, the Democrats, are like, yes, there's good in this. Let's meet him halfway, or George W. Bush, who is so fucking elevated beyond all this in his life that he doesn't feel he needs to speak out about it. Every single one of you are responsible for making the worst piece of shit in the entire country, the President of the United States. And if we do not hold him and the people around him accountable immediately, if we fall into the Biden-Merc Garland trap, they will be there in four years as Norm Warrens. And, you know, even as we're doing this, Norm, you know, Jack Smith went up to the Hill, and they didn't want him to testify in public because they knew what he would say. But what he said by in closed doors, apparently, was, there was a strong case against Trump. He would make that case against anybody, Democrat or Republican. And he wasn't able to get to that point, in part because the Supreme Court put the brakes on the whole thing until after the election, at which point they disemboweled it. But I just thought maybe you want to talk about that, too. Yeah, and I, before that, just something I reflect on a bit in our last podcast, but I want to reiterate it. I'm a strong believer in civil discourse. As you know, the other major function of our foundation is debate for public school kids. It teaches them all kinds of life skills, but also how to take issues, including sometimes you have to argue things that are anathema to you and be on that side, but argue them civilly. But I was at this session at the National Cathedral last week, led by two governors, the governor of Utah and the governor of Pennsylvania, about the Disagree Better Initiative, and it was preceded by a panel, Spencer Cox and Josh Shapiro, by a panel that included my former colleague, Uval Levin of the American Enterprise Institute. It included the president of the Ford Foundation, and it included a former Biden official. And their panel was all about how we are in a very bad place, that we're polarized its polarization, and we have to find a better way to get along. And then Cox and Shapiro talked about how we have to love our enemies. And I thought if I'd been on that panel, I would have said two things. First, it's not polarization. It's too bad we have that, but you can function with that. It's tribalism. Because if you begin to frame this as they are evil and trying to destroy our way of life, you will justify anything to keep them from feeling good or gaining legitimacy or power. And so much of what people do to giving Trump a pass is for just that reason. But the other thing is, okay, if we're talking about policy differences, we can argue them hammer and tawn while being civil about it and staying within limits. But we're talking about something different when it comes to genuine enemies. Being civil in that sense is thinking of your enemies as people who just have different views. What about people who are genuinely evil? You don't deal with them through love. We wouldn't have said in the 1930s, well, we should love Hitler because after all, he just has a different set of views. And we wouldn't say now, well, we should love Putin. We should treat him with respect and civility because after all, he's just reflecting his country's interests. He's a monstrous, sadistic, evil person, and you do not use civil rhetoric when you call out monstrous evil people, including those who, just as you mentioned, Johnson and the others and John Thune, who know what they're doing is wrong, but they are enabling monstrous actions, lies, and behavior. And that's the role that we're playing here. That's the role I think that the DSR network in general is playing. We have to call out evil when it's there while also recognizing that if and when we get back to respectability, then we can, one hopes, just return to deep-seated policy differences. And you can go after those with tough rhetoric, but it's very different from what we're encountering now. And the fact is that it's not just Donald Trump, as you said, it's the enablers. It is the licks-bittles. It is the cultists. And it's the others who themselves are evil, like Stephen Miller, like Cash Patel, like the people like Tom Hohman and the others who are, you know, seeing this latest footage of a pregnant woman, probably in her seventh month, thrown to the ground and the full weight of an officer on her belly, on her, people who I'm sure call themselves pro-life. And that this is covered up by Homeland Security and the evil Christy known and the corrupt ones around them. We cannot let that pass or deal with it by papering it over or giving any legitimacy to what they're doing. This isn't about policy. This is about cruelty and evil, period. Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, I saw, again, a respectable commentator type on a video yesterday going, well, you know, these reflections of Suzy Wiles, the White House Chief Staff, on the president, you know, they're the fairest we've seen, and they present a balanced picture. And I was like, I'm unplugging this guy. I'm unfollowing this guy. This is such deep bullshit. And there is however truth out there. And one place I'd direct you, if you got a little time, everybody, is go follow the stack of Olivia Troy, who worked in the Trump White House the last time around. She wrote a reflection on these Suzy Wiles comments just overnight, which was extremely good. And her point is, you can't work in the Trump White House, where the job is not to serve America, but to facilitate the president's vision and desires. You can't work there in any role and not be an enabler. You are an enabler if you're in the road. You are complicit. And she comes at this from real experience. It's a brief, well written piece, and I would encourage you to look at it. Anyway, it's, you know, holiday time and ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho to DSR Network, which is to subscribe if you don't. Well, that's a very modest gift. A modest gift. Go to thedsrnetwork.com and be a subscriber. Or if you're watching it on YouTube, just subscribe on YouTube. It's free and builds up our audience that way. But yeah, we'll be back next week, all new live programming. And then the following week between Christmas and New Year's, as has been true for 10 years, it's going to be best of. So you'll get some of the best of stuff before we're back in 2026, which is an election year. Thank goodness. Anyway, thank you, Norm. Thank you, everybody, for listening and we'll see you again soon. Bye-bye. So you want to start a business. You might think you need a team of people and fancy text kills, but you don't. You just need GoDaddy Arrow. I'm Walton Goggins and as an actor, I'm an expert in looking like I know what I'm doing. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo. It'll create a custom website. It'll write social posts for you and even set you up with a social media calendar. Get started at godaddy.com slash arrow. That's godaddy.com slash A-I-R-O.
