Episode 497: Royal Rumble 1996

Welcome to something I've ever met. Welcome to Ripper with. It's Ripper with. Who's the freak? Well, you know. That's not a real. What a rip? No, you have a beat. There's no box of gimmicks. Rumor and innuendo. I don't feel in rumor and innuendo. Hey, it was me there. I was there. I'm so far. I don't give a shit. Welcome to something I've ever met. Welcome to something I've ever met. Something to wrestle with. Something to wrestle with. Bruce Pritchard. It's Conrad, the mortgage guy, and you're listening to Something to Wrestle With. Bruce Pritchard. Bruce, what's going on, man? How are you? I was just admiring how nice my hair looked in that picture with dusty, like, nice, long, golden, flowing locks. Those were the days, baby. Well, these are the days where we are excited to talk about the Royal Rumble. We are home stretching it to this year's Royal Rumble. Last week, we talked about 1991. Today, we're talking about 1996. Can you believe that this was 30 years ago, Bruce? No. It's crazy. That's a long time. It is a long time. Can you believe I've been alive for three years? Well, I can believe that. I mean, you've got kids that are 20-something. Well, that's on you. Nope. I'm pull-out Jones. No. I mean, you could be my kid. Wow, isn't that a scary talk? Yeah, exactly. That got a lot of frowns at that fucking, the Hall of Fame thingy that I put you in when I talked about how I could be your daddy. Some of those old-timers' wives and stuff were not real happy with me. Really? Yeah, when I just said, well, hell, I could have been in Huntsville. just kind of sliding on through there I want to know where the hell Debra was on the same day that you were consummated and all that stuff and Debra got all red Larry Thompson laughed he thought that was funny our table was the only one that was laughing we may have been the only ones that were drinking but at least we were laughing we had fun but there were a few I got some nasty scares and just kind of, ooh, okay. Oh, well. Oh, well. Have a sense of humor, people. Come on. Agreed. Take this life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive. Big facts. Big facts. Just spitting facts right now. Oh, okay. Spitting. Let's try to get into the mentality of late 1995. So as folks are listening to this More than 30 years ago The WWF now finds itself combating WCW In the Monday Night War era They've just started Nitro a few months prior The WWF is coming off respectfully Not their best financial years And they're looking for a hit And the Observer would say that They're contacting a lot of different folks you may remember that this is around the same time a few months prior to this is when Big Van Vader had his situation at center stage with Paul Orndorff and he found himself he wasn't in flip flops the guy whooving his ass was kicking his ass with flip flops that's got to be one of the more famous fight stories in the history of wrestling how quickly did you guys in the WWF hear that story? oh I think that that one went pretty quick that kind of just flew through the dressing rooms because, look, Leon was not a popular guy in the dressing room. And for anybody that worked with him, he would bully them, and he would take liberties and things of that nature. So he wasn't one like, oh, hey, poor Leon got beat up, or there was nobody making excuses. The story was, hey, Orndorff kicked his ass wearing flip-flops. Just, and like was kicking him with his feet in flip-flops and stuff. So that story went through because it was kind of the feeling of the big bully getting his comeuppance. And that story traveled so quickly, sort of pre-internet. Now I know some smartass out there is going to say, oh, there was internet in 96. I'm not arguing that there wasn't, but I'm just saying we weren't all walking around with the internet in our pocket like we are now. So back then, the WWF was looking for, hey, what surprises? What new wrinkles can we introduce into the fold? And allegedly, the WWF, according to Dave Meltzer, had contacted Dan Severin, Jake Roberts, Ultimate Warrior, Big Ben Vader, Rick Martel, and the only name that had been mentioned on television is the Ultimate Warrior. And Vince McMahon has been negotiating, according to Dave Meltzer, with the Warrior and Vader about making some appearances. Was there ever a universe where Warriors return was going to be at the Rumble and not WrestleMania 12? Look, the Warrior conversations, they kind of always seemed to be ongoing. It was feelers put out there to see if he'd respond and he would ask for too much and then they would go away for a while and then they would spark back up and what if we did this what if we did that but you know those were by this time they were getting a little warmer so by this time I think that there was actual thought of oh God he may be coming back and there you know yeah there was that oh God he may be coming back Mouncewood writes the situation oh God he may be coming back No one wanted him back. No one. Vince. Vince wanted him back. Meltzer wrote this in The Observer. The situation with Warrior is surprising since he's been mentioned on the syndicated superstar show twice about a potential return to the WWF, but has yet to be mentioned on cable. Several WWF wrestlers believe Warrior is in for not only the Rumble, but to return as a regular. one person who's in a position to know better than most of the wrestlers claimed that that wasn't the case and nobody is in a position that I believe they would know 100% and they've told us nothing one way or another. McMahon has a hazy answer when asked on an internet chat saying in order for the Ultimate Warrior to return to the WWF the moon and the stars and the sun and the planet Pluto will all have to be perfectly aligned in some sort of celestial magnificence. But who knows? Yes. anything can happen in the World Wrestling Federation. So he's teasing it kind of publicly. I've always wondered, what do you think Vince is? Because whenever you and I talk about the Warrior transition from Hogan to Warrior, we often talk about how there were falling houses and Vince was underwhelmed with the results. It wasn't just overwhelmingly positive. So I guess my follow-up is, why does it feel like, for whatever reason, Vince was kind of enamored with the Ultimate Warrior here? Like, if he wasn't this magic shot and boost for business and he was disappointing, I understand on the other channel now, Savage is there, Hogan is there, they're both in WCW, so is Flair, but he's not really one of Vince's guys. But the Ultimate Warrior, did he feel like, okay, if I can't have Hogan, I can't have Savage, let me at least lock up the Warrior? Why does he think he needs a Warrior at this point? I think that's part of it, but also there was always a connection with Vince and Warrior. They got along when they got along. Business-wise in dollars, man, money will always come in between. And I think that, you know, Vince has a – habit's not the right word, but Vince just chooses to view the good in people. And if he looks at something – and look, Warrior is a great example because I first met Jim Helwig when he was three months in the business in Mid-South. and from the very first interaction with him, he was a first-class asshole. He was not a good person. He was difficult to work with, thought he knew it all, and he was just a real jerk. Then he ran out when Bill Watts cracked him in the head with a baseball bat and he literally ran away and left the territory in the middle of the night. so I didn't have good experience with him. When he was calling in the summer of 87 to come in for WWE at the time, and I was asked, do you ever work with him? I said, yes, and have good experience. And Vince said, well, you know, sometimes you have to look at the surroundings and the environment in which someone is in. And does the environment contribute? to their demeanor and how they are. So was it, was the atmosphere, was the environment one that could have made Jim a jerk? And I said, well, you know, yeah, Bill could be difficult. Bill wasn't the most pleasant guy in the business to work with, but, you know, Bill was Bill, and Bill was the boss. So gave Jim Hellwig the benefit of the doubt. But then I think that once Jim came in, he was mad. He was on his best behavior when he first came in. And then once he got over it, he did get over. I think it was his theme music that got him over. And his entrance and the enthusiasm. And just, you know, say what you will about Jim Helwig. And I did not like the human being. The character of the Ultimate Warrior, man, had charisma and he just like oozed charisma. And the guy had intensity and was frenetic and exciting. So it was hard to deny that. No one can deny that. no one can deny the fact that this guy could not command an audience and that this guy couldn't get a reaction going out and doing what he did and so to that kudos man I give him credit for that and Vince just honed in on the positives of what he saw and you know that was that but then you know they had their falling outs and they had their Warrior getting fired in whatever it was, 91, 92. And now it was an opportunity for him to come back. And this was something that I think, you know, Vince also is someone that if it's good for business, he'll entertain anything if he feels it's good for business. So having Warrior come back, he felt at the time, this could boost business and this could be somebody, again, that the audience was familiar with, that they saw as a WWE guy, that they were like, all right, man, this is going to be good for business. And yeah, he was really pushing hard trying to sell us on it. Warrior seemingly got a lot of concessions in his 1996 contract. It's been made public from all the lawsuits after this. I don't think Vince gave that. Is that the first time you remember Vince granting a contract like that? Well, I would probably guess that, you know, Hogan had concessions in his, but, you know, that was Hulk. I think Hulk was the only one. So when you go back and look at it, probably Hulk and Warrior had good deals. But Warrior wanted everything in writing, and Warrior wanted everything to protect him. And I think at that point, it kind of also gave Vince the pause to look at, yeah, he's protecting him. We have to protect us. So putting it in writing and wording it very carefully. But to answer the question, yes. And this was also during the time that we were looking at the downside guaranteed contracts because WCW had been doing the guaranteed contracts. And that was something that people could point to. Oh, hey, yeah, I go to WCW. I know what I'm going to make every week. I don't have to work all the time. And I know exactly what my budget is. you know every week I know that check is going to come with us you got paid on the gates and if the gates were good you did good if they weren't you didn't so it was a new philosophy and we were trying to look at the how can we guarantee something but still have a built in incentive for them to want to work harder and do more to get the gates up to push merchandising to do everything that comes along with the job and the gig. So all those things were going on. Also during this time, you know, talking to obviously Vader, Johnny B. Badd, and it was those guys, not Warrior necessarily, but certainly Vader and Johnny B. Badd, they were used to guarantee deals. they were used to okay you know what am I going to make and I want that you know on a weekly so we could do that and we were just trying to figure out different ways Warrior wanted a lot more and Warrior wanted you know certain guarantees and what have you and yeah Vince Vince conceded to less states and what have you the ultimate blow up was over the comic book that Warrior had that we over delivered in the very first you know in the first run but then he got just absolutely insanely crazy more crazy than he had been alright so all of our long time listeners by this point know that the official dog of something to wrestle is my girl ginger i don't care what bruce says about rowdy or being ginger is the face that runs the place i've loved ginger since the first laid eyes on her she's been my best friend and i just thought that my best friend liked to lick her paws and occasionally my best friend liked to itch or scratch and i just thought that every now and again my best friend got ear infections it turns out these are not normal dog behaviors they're actually signs of allergies. 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So technically Warrior may have had the first one. Mark Merrow was the following month. Does that sound right to you? The time frame is right. But to say who got the first one and who signed the first one, I really don't remember because you do have to throw Vader into that as well. Okay. That's something I hadn't thought about. So, because, look, I was doing talent relations at the time, and I was the first one to do the downside guarantees. So I was working with Vince on a budget. Now, here's, you know, the crazy thing is that the budget for 1996 was a little over $9 million. I want to say it was like $9.4, $9.6 million in that range. That was for the entire roster. Okay. And how we arrived at that number was we took the last several years and looked at the whole roster, the whole budget and what had been paid out. And that is where, you know, we came up with that number. And that was given to me by Doug Sages, who was the chief finance guy. And I had to divvy that up. and in divvying that up okay you've got Shawn Michaels you've got Bret Hart you've got Undertaker guys that were top guys that had been there for a while and then you kind of got everybody else on there and then Warrior and Johnny B. Badd and God there's three we just said it didn't we Vader Vader Vader but what I didn't know was that Vince had already agreed to the money for Vader and Johnny V. Bat so I've got because I remember you know thinking of Mark Marrow and I had him down in the 150 range for a downside guarantee. Vader, I want to say we were looking at like 250. And again, these were downsides. So this is what they were going to make. This is like, this is the least amount you're going to make. So I'm trying to make a budget work that if all they made was the least amount, then we get to our $9 million and we're not over budget. But if they go over it, they're going over it because we earned that. We made that. And they were sharing. So it's like, you know, profit share. So I didn't know about those. Then, you know what? Warrior was the last one to be done. Because I remember his kicked the fuck out of the budget. so it was not, yeah, it wasn't pretty for me, having to manage it, just go, what the hell and then you have Sean, who we're looking at, okay, he's going to be a top guy you got Brett, you got Taker and those three guys needed to be taken care of, they're the ones that have been through it all and never left and all that good stuff so it was a mess Let's talk a little bit about Jake Roberts he's 40 years old here and he's going to be making his return to the Royal Rumble this will be his first time in the WWF since he left following Wrestlemania 8 I know you weren't at Wrestlemania 8 but we know Jake went down to WCW Bill Watts had just taken over Bill did not honor the contract that had previously been negotiated and Jake didn't last very long in WCW wound up going to treatment found the Lord and he retired a year prior to this. I guess he found him. Okay, cool. And as the story goes, here's what Meltzer said. He retired from wrestling last year to go into religion and vowed he would never return. So we do know that he does actually work into a return. And the story that Jake has said for years and years is he hoped and believed and was led to believe by Vince that the Pat Patterson job would be his. When Pat steps aside, then, hey, Jake, you're going to have an opportunity here. And when that doesn't come to fruition, that's when he jumps to WCW. That was back in 92. Here we are in 96. Do you remember how Jake got back in the fold? Is he reaching out to Vince? Is Vince reaching out to him thinking, Hey, let's get this nostalgia pop with a big return at Royal rumble. How does that happen? Do you recall? I want to say we reached out to Jake for the appearance at the Royal rumble as a surprise and a nice pop and what have you. And then once Jake came in and Jake appeared to be doing great and, you know, said he was not doing any more drugs, wasn't drinking, wasn't doing any of those things. And, and gave, look, man, he gave that appearance when he came in and in talking to him really seemed clear headed. And we needed, you know, help from a creative standpoint. and Jake always has, and Lee probably still does, have a great mind for the business. He's an amazing psychologist, and he had the body of work to support that. Right. And when Jake came in, it was like, hey, what about Jake? Could we use Jake to help us with writing TV, with booking, and what have you? and that's kind of how it happened. But it started out with the appearance at Royal Rumble. Let's see what we've got and then go from there. Do you remember, was anyone optimistic about Jake as a creative force behind the scenes or was it always going to be a wait and see because of prior experience? Well, sure. I was optimistic about Jake. Wanted help. and again I've always thought that Jake had a great mind for the business so but at the time that was like a we'll see what happens and then go from there it wasn't like I've got to bring Jake in and do this and see if he works out here to bring in the creative it was let's bring him in here and then once he got there it was like okay hey man he seems pretty good could we possibly parlay this into something behind the scenes. It's a new year and colder days means this is the moment your winter wardrobe really has to deliver. If you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last season after season. Quince brings together premium materials, thoughtful design, and enduring quality so you stay warm, look sharp, and feel your best all season long. Quince has everything you need. Men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather, and suede outerwear that actually hold up to daily wear and still looks good. Their outerwear is especially impressive. 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That's quince.com slash wrestle. free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash wrestle q u i n c e dot com slash wrestle let's talk about vader melcer would say at the time the vader name is most intriguing with the wwf short on heels and he is a proven pay-per-view draw the two potentially could fit like a glove however vader is used to big money as the avenue of getting big money in japan and is coming off a serious injury and hasn't wrestled a schedule as grueling as the titan schedule in years we know that vader does debut at the rumble complete with a lot of hype on tv what did it take to get him away from his planned return to new japan do you remember how all of that came to be is vader reaching out and sending feelers is there back channeling does vinsters call him directly what do you recall i want to say a little bit of both but uh i'm not sure that the myth that vader having a lot of opportunities after the wcw incident was necessarily true and by that i i mean that the japanese office i believe was new japan that was doing business with wcw was kind A little bit like, oh boy, you know, we're not sure we want him anymore. And Leon, again, it was that kind of bully mentality that he would use to get what he wanted. and I don't know that I think he did I think that Japan was the right market for Leon and it was he obviously was over there and did a great job but the I think that backstage incident took a lot out of him you know you go back to the Bulldogs and Dynamite Kid When Dynamite got his clock cleaned by Jacques Rougeau, the Dynamite kid, the day before, was not the same Dynamite kid after that fight. And I think that the same thing when you look at everything, I think that that same history and that same thing repeated itself here with Leon because there wasn't clamoring for Leon. I think that, you know, he maybe could have gone to all Japan. Maybe he could have done that. But the aura of Vader in front of the camera, behind the camera, everything else, just kind of got chipped away big time there with that Orndorff altercation. Let's talk a little bit about Dan Severin, because he's in a similar situation. Now, this is a long time ago. Let's remind everybody, we're talking 30 years ago. UFC was still in its infancy. It's owned by a company called SEG, not Dana White and the Fertittas. This is pre all of that. And we know these days WWE and UFC share the same banner, TKO. That was not the case back in late 95 when Vince was reaching out to Dan Severin. I guess Vince makes some sort of promise like, hey, we're not going to do anything to make you look bad. But supposedly, there was a clause in UFC contracts that wouldn't allow them to appear on anyone else's pay-per-view. Now, of course, they're probably thinking if some other mixed martial arts sort of outfit were to pop up and be new direct competition to the UFC. But also know that if you're branding yourself as being quote-unquote real, then maybe you don't want one of your performers appearing on sports entertainment. So my question is, do you remember any discussion about whether or not you could have a UFC contracted performer appear at the Royal Rumble? And was there any heartburn on the SEG side about that? No, what was the name of the guy there? Meyerowitz? That's right. Okay. I had a decent relationship with him. When I say decent, he took my calls and we We talked over the years and things, and he was always open to things. So he liked us, and I was a big fan of the UFC. I loved the beginning of it. I didn't think it would last. I really didn't. And I think that, you know, Dana coming in and instituting rules, because that was Vince's big thing. Vince didn't like it because he felt, where do you go from here? And if there are no rules, then what is the intrigue? And he was a big one on not really understanding it or just some of the Hoist Gracie fights. Look, they were boring. They weren't good. Would I want to tangle with Hoist Gracie? Never in a million years. I got nothing but respect for the Gracie family. And when you talk about legit badasses in the world, they're at the top of the list. The entire family. The grandfather would please forget about it. But when you're looking at trying to market something and exciting and you want people to get involved, I think that some of those fights hurt them in the beginning. So, Vincent like it, I loved it. Shane loved it. For me, I thought that I always loved the wrestlers at UFC because I felt a great wrestler will be a great martial artist. I know wrestling is a martial art. any day of the week. And I thought that I loved Dan Severn. I thought Dan was great in the octagon, in that world. Ken Shamrock, also in that world. But, you know, Kenny had lost. You know, Severn had a much better record. so I'm looking at that you know Mickey Mark what's better Dan Severin is beating Ken Shamrock and so I like Severin and Shamrock had the professional wrestling background so to speak and I think that there was a little negativity on that in that world of the shoot fighter but Ken Shamrock was a legit fucking badass. And Ken Shamrock had charisma. And Kenny had an attitude. Kenny had a personality, man. And Dan Severn, if you were to go back into the 50s and 60s and want to have your babyface world champion, you would have wanted Dan Severn. Because Dan could beat anybody on the planet. and he was well-dressed, well-spoken, and just a legit badass. Dan could also be viewed as boring. So I wanted Dan bad. Corny was a fan of Dan Severn as well. And Vince was like, yeah, Ken Shamrock's the guy you want. and but you know we kind of went back and forth and all this stuff but the Byrwitz conversations he was open to it he was actually good with it just you know I don't want you to beat him with one of your phony wrestlers you know look we going to take care of him and we bill him as UFC champion And stuff So there was an allure there and, again, I'm partial at that time to Dan. Because I met Dan, I never met Kenny. And then once I met Ken, I was like, well, he's got it. So, it was, Dan was just not as flamboyant in this world as maybe needed to be. Badass. I don't want to fuck with Dan Severn, trust me. But he was also a stand-up class guy. Ultimate professional. You never had to worry about Dan Severn screwing up. You never had to worry about Dan Severn showing up late or embarrassing your company in any way, man. And Danny dressed to the nines and was there was a definition of a professional. You know, for a lot of us guys, we're all just focused on the day. We've got a task list. We've got to get it done. We're trying to put out fires and handle whatever the issues are at hand. But every now and again, we have one of those moments. And I had one on Christmas Eve. My cousin was going to get engaged that night. I knew that, but she didn't know that. and as I looked around as we're all opening our gifts and I have all of my extended family in I was just overcome with gratitude you know as guys sometimes we're just thinking about our problems at work or we're thinking about that game or we're just thinking about issues but when I really got to just look around and be in the moment on on Christmas Eve I was reminded of what's really important I'm talking about our families and a lot of times if you're the head of the household like me, you think about that financially. I want you to start the new year with clarity and security and lock your life insurance in today. 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As we're winding down 95, Shane Douglas is winding down as well. He comes into the company in late August 95, very quickly finds himself in the Intercontinental title picture. and we know he's going to ultimately drop that title towards the end of November to Razor Ramon. He has two more matches, one TV taping in Maryland, Superstars, and then a house show in Philadelphia, November 24th, 95. And that's it. He's hurt. He's got a back injury, and apparently Vince and JR are trying to convince Shane to work a match at the pay-per-view that's coming up. This is, of course, against Ahmet Johnson. The December 1996 in-your-house season's beatings from Hershey, Pennsylvania. And Shane Douglas refuses to work. He says he's got a back injury. He can't do it. There's no backup plan. So as the story goes, someone, maybe J.R., I'm not sure. I'll ask you. Says, what about Buddy Landell? So Buddy Landell, fresh off of a match in August down in Smoky Mountain with Shawn Michaels for Jim Cornette's outfit, he gets the opportunity, cold, to be on a pay-per-view against Ahmed Johnson. Kind of a cool deal for him. Ahmed gets the squash win, 42 seconds. But he does get a title shot the very next day in Delaware against Bret Hart. and that same day he works a Monday Night Raw taping and gets a win over Bob Holly and the very next day he does a Superstars taping and picks up a win over Matt Hardy but after that show in Bethlehem where he beats a very young Matt Hardy and it looks like he's on his way and he's finally got an opportunity to make some money in the WWF damn it he slips on some ice going through a revolving door tears his ankle up he's going to need surgery he's going to be out for eight weeks once again success has slipped through the fingers of buddy landale what do you remember about this story that's the version we've always heard as fans what really happened with jane douglas out buddy landale in hey watch out for that ice darn it um corny was a uh is the one that suggested buddy landale and I haven't worked with Buddy before I thought yeah why not Buddy's not gonna embarrass you in the ring and thought alright we can do this Buddy didn't come in in bad shape he actually looked decent and everything clear headed showed up in his nice suit and tie and what have you but yeah I have no idea what happened with the ice, but, you know, back in the day, there was a guy by the name of Nature Boy Buddy Rogers, and he's not the only one, but Buddy is a good example in this, that because they were professional wrestlers, they knew how to take bumps. take a bump and it would look like it would kill an ordinary man but to them just another bump and in his later years buddy would go to establishments like a grocery store and slip and fall and oh I'm an old man oh my god I broke my neck or I broke my neck or oh my god go to the hospital get an x-ray yeah man his back is fucked oh my god if you don't look I don't want to go through this just pay me $10,000 cash I'll go away they did that quite a bit then they came up with these things in the grocery stores called cameras they had cameras up and down the aisle and as legend has it Buddy might have gone down and tipped over a jar of pickles or whatever the hell it is and then slipped went down, you know, looked around made sure nobody was looking and went down and oh my god, oh my god, oh my god so what happened? I was walking down the aisle I didn't see this spill here I slipped and fell Oh, my God. Let's take a look at the videotape. Oh, no. And when they went, they viewed the security surveillance. They saw the whole setup. And that put an end to Buddy's slip and falls. But Buddy Rogers, the original nature boy. so there was I think there was speculation and there were people that doubted the seriousness of Buddy Landell's injury again I don't know man but he allegedly got settlement from the hotel oh I didn't know that okay and you know was done I, again, I wasn't there. I don't know. This part of this is all wrestling scuttlebutt and lore. So, yeah, I really don't know. But I know that after that, when you start telling the story, I go, oh, God, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. And it was a horrible, and it was horrible weather there, man. and it was frozen tundra and all that good shit. I mean, the ice here, the fall for Buddy Landell, effectively ends his career. I mean, I know he came back in and did occasional shots for WCW or the WWE, but never with a contract. They were always one-offs. He would work independents. But there were a lot of people who maybe, you know, he was one of their favorites to keep an eye on. I remember when I used to go to the NWA Legends Fan Fest in Charlotte, I met a lot of people who felt like, man, Buddy Landell was the guy who got away. Man, what could have been? And I'll admit, that sort of predated my fandom, so I didn't really have that experience. But I know a lot of people who were really tuned in when he was on the rise who felt like, man, he could have been something special. Did you see that in Buddy in an alternate timeline? Could he have had a more fruitful, more successful WWF career, do you think? I think Buddy is one of those guys that is allergic to success. Buddy Landell's first main event in his career was in Houston, Texas, against Jose Lothario. And that's where, you know, that's right, I said it. That's right. Hey, this taco-eating guy over here, yeah, that's right, I said it. That was Buddy Landell. Buddy had his first main event in Houston. And it was the lowest drawing card of the year. And it wasn't just a bad house of the shits. It was the drizzling shits. and a lot of people saw that okay once he kind of got right there he could always fumble it and it was kind of hard to fumble in Houston with Jose Lothario because Jose was one of those guys man you get in a personal issue with him you could make some money not so with Buddy and Jose didn't really want to work with him after that I was like yeah no this is not going to work so I think Buddy went to WCW or whatever it was at the time the NWA and had an opportunity to work a program with Blair and he fumbled that deal had a short little run and then what everybody does, Buddy does. And he wasn't able to continue that. And then he just worked for Tennessee and worked smaller places from then on. But Buddy, you know, and the sad thing is, is that Buddy, I think, was liked by everybody. He had a hell of a personality. Buddy well I think he ended up doing this for a while but Buddy was the epitome of a used car salesman man he could talk your ass off he could sell you snow in my god Alaska and people liked him and it was like hey Buddy Landau he's fucking hilarious man I like Buddy and got along with all the boys and was a great guy but just, he would get close, and it just didn't work out, and there was usually only one common denominator for those things, you know, when you looked at it with Buddy, and it is a shame, because I thought that he was a hell of a talent, and I thought that if you could take that personality that he had backstage, and turn it up to 10 on camera, he a lot of times was playing heel but he was a great heel he really was but sometimes he went to the play mode instead of man be real with this and it was a shame I do think that it was opportunity loss for Buddy let's talk a little bit about Dory Funk it's written in the Observer I've been talking a long goddamn night about Dory Funk well I don't want to do it all night but it was announced in early January that he's going to be a part of the Royal Rumble and Meltzer would explain that the WWF is trying to open up a relationship with All Japan similar to the way that WCW has a deal with New Japan maybe Vince was thinking Dory could be the liaison with All Japan I know they're also going to feature Amori in the Rumble So talk to me about how the All Japan thing comes to be Is this you reaching out to Dory Or how does Dory become positioned as almost like a liaison for All Japan here I want to say this is Well yeah it was I think it was JJ Who did And JJ was another one that was always fascinated with the Japan Relationships and what have you was always looking and then that was part of his job with uh talent relations and shit so actually no fuck wouldn't have been jj had it would have had to have been me it fucking wasn't but i god damn man when you say that i don't think that it was necessarily for the all japan shit i'm sure part of it was i'm sure for dory it was but God damn Boy you got me there I was thinking this was A few years before with JJ But it wouldn't have been You know we mentioned That TV taping In Bethlehem That show Is also going to be the last appearance Of Xanta Claus John Rickner Who we know more affectionately And commonly as Balls Mahoney He picks up a win over Scott Taylor, you know him as Scotty Too Hotty, and that happens on December 19, 1995. Meltzer would say that Xanta Claus has already been fired because he was told the gimmick wasn't working, and he worked the NWA show on December 29, throwing out presents to fans like chocolate with cigarette butts in it, Barbies with a penis put on the Barbie, and other tacky and tasteless things like that. What happened here? The Xanta Claus. This has to be one of the worst ideas of 1995, don't you think? I'd probably be number one. Yeah. Yeah. God damn, what would be the anti-Xanta Claus? And it was going to be just the big X. X Claus, and it was Xanta Claus. And who would bring in Xanta Claus? And then the... Good Lord. The amount of discussion time spent on Xanta Claus, I'll never get that time back. But it was, I think he could be Xanta Bunny, you know, as an Easter Bunny. It just was, he was Boo Bradley for Cornette. and you know, Boo would be perfect for this. And poor old Boo. He worked the first night and then the next night went up to Jim Myers who was doing the where you'd get your draw or your dance and if you need cash you go see Jim and all this stuff and basically went up and showed his ass and demanded money from Jim and oh I want this I want that was not the best side of him then by God you know it was it was all over for him I don't want an asshole like that besides gimmick sucked I'm not going to do that again like well yeah I think everybody universally thought the gimmick sucked. He didn't make a good impression. He was horrible. And I want to say he was probably drunk. That doesn't help. It was like, go ahead and go home, man. Go home now. I want to say we may have paid him in full. So just go away. Go home. Ben, you hate to hear it from Balls Mahoney and Buddy Landale Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. That's the end of the road for both of them. Yeah. That was a hell of a snowstorm too. Hell of a snowstorm. Drove home in it. Drove home following the snow plows. Oh, wow. And then going around the snow plows, which I did not know this until this moment. It is illegal. I was going to say. On the Jersey Turnpike and that kind of stuff. It is illegal to pass a snowplow on whatever the highway. All this shit. Now, the gentleman that was kind enough to pull us over and inform us of this let us go. We stayed behind the snowplow for the most part. But that was a slow ass ride home. Brutal. Let's talk a little bit about Razor Ramon. This is on the build, of course, to Razor and Goldust at the Royal Rumble. And we know once upon a time that was going to be part of the story, but maybe it would pay off at WrestleMania 12. But as we've learned on this program through the years, things change, pal. Dave would even write, Ramon is trying to get the program switched to working with Hunter Hearst Helmsley. I mean, we know in the grand scheme of things, 30 years later, through Modernize, I guess Scott Hall was perfectly within his rights to turn down a sexual angle if he was uncomfortable with it but also would challenge people who maybe weren't sold on the Goldust angle being a good idea or the Goldust gimmick being a good idea well that proved to not be true either the Goldust character is still iconic and something that people will remember forever and ever was there a way do you think Vince was just digging his heels in and Razor was digging his heels in Was it the undercurrent of Razor's contract coming due and him not wanting to go out like this with this storyline? Was there more to it, do you think? Well, only Razor knew he was going out. So at this point. Right. It probably a lot of all of the above. but it was you know Razor Razor dug in which made Vince dig in even more and the the program I think the program would have been amazing yeah two great workers controversial character man with Razor Ramon Machismo and all this shit it was I do think it would have been great I think that it was unfortunately never never really given the opportunity to be great and Razor didn't want to do it and just made it difficult to do and I would say in that in that situation Razor came out on the wrong end of the stick because they you know Dustin went on to have a fabulous career as Goldust let's talk a little bit about Bret Hart and Davey Boy Smith They had a phenomenal match at In Your House, and they actually get to show the match on Raw on January 8th. And we just talked about this last week here on the program when we talked about 1991, that that angle with Sergeant Slaughter and the Ultimate Warrior and the Scepter attack from the Macho King, that was really the first time we saw video instead of stills after a pay-per-view. And now here we are, just a couple of weeks after a pay-per-view, showing a whole doggone match on Monday Night Raw. Granted, only about 90,000 people or so bought the pay-per-view, so 1.6 million or so are going to watch this episode of Raw. So a whole lot more people get to see it. But how do you do that, Bruce, without pissing off the cable companies here in January of 96? It was two weeks later? Yeah, it was a couple weeks after. okay well that was the window oh okay because also even when you go back to the other like Wrestlemania and what have you six weeks was the window there before it went to videotape so we had DVDs kids you had little VHS this was VHS in 96 96 we were still in VHS yeah man you weren't doing DVDs okay kids you got them paid yes yes When did we go to DVDs? I think 98, 99, 2000, somewhere in there. Oh, well, I thought it was much earlier than that. Because I remember, I'll never forget the... Bret Hart coming in with CDs and DVDs and just thinking that... Because the way you were sold CDs... Okay, I'll go back to CDs then, my God. Takes up less space. Huh? Takes up less space. indestructible indestructible you cannot like you couldn't scratch him you couldn't do anything Brett's sitting there going he goes yeah man I got these damn things they're supposed to be indestructible my kids take them out and they're like throwing them and doing all this she goes they scratch it was just one of the funniest conversations I had with Brett because he was like I thought all this stuff and everything, and I'm looking at him like, I really don't know. Dude, I assumed that that was kind of how they were presented to us. You couldn't scratch them, you couldn't harm them, you couldn't damage them in any way. They will last a lifetime, by God. They're indestructible. Do your kids get a hold of them and bend them in half, and then by God, guess what? They're going to skip. Sometimes they won't even play. And shit like that. So it was, I don't know why I went off on that tangent, but yes, that was, that was, that was why. Because you had a window to get your tapes out and later on, especially within your houses, man, it was, hey, we'll push it. So yeah, there was a window. And I want to say by that time it was two weeks because the turnaround just got a lot faster. Because we took over the distribution. It stopped being Coliseum and those guys. We took over distribution for it so that there wasn't the added production time of, you know, Coliseum editing it and putting their stuff in to make it unique to Coliseum Video. We were like, why can't we just take the event, put it on a tape or a CD later on, and sell it? And then we, if we did do wraparounds, we did that in our studio, and it was just much faster. get it out to them a lot quicker by God give them a taste of it it's like here come on kid just try it just one time yeah alright I gotta have more of that in your house I want in your house to be in my house where I can just sniff it all the time I'll listen to you hey let me ask you this question about Brett and Bulldog because that was the match that you guys are showing it went down at the Hershey Pennsylvania in your house December 17th 1995 and they got plenty of time on it like 21 minutes and a lot of people hold it in really high regard I think Meltzer himself gave it four and a half stars and I know that the lore of Tokyo though oh it would have been seven stars but we know for sure that the SummerSlam 92 main event is held in such high regard especially over in Europe folks Just absolutely love it. But I have seen some fanfare recently saying they feel like this in-your-house match between Bulldog and Brett was actually better than the SummerSlam 92. Did you have a preference between those? You know, okay, you're talking about two of the greatest workers, you know, in Brett and Davey who had unbelievable chemistry. I don't think that they ever had a bad match. so the levels of good and or great matches between Davey Boy and Brett again it's just different variations in what you prefer and maybe the Wembley match based on Brett's book and different interviews that he's done about the condition that Davey Boy was in in London is either going to skew your opinion one way or the other. Where it's like, oh, he was fucked up. That was a horrible match. He was messed up. Or, oh, my God, that was one of the most unbelievable matches. How could he do that if he was fucked up? Right. So, again, that goes back to opinions. So, I don't recall seeing a bad Brett and Davey match. But you didn't have a favorite either. I really didn't, no I got you Well, as we get closer to the Royal Rumble There's lots of chatter about all these new guys Who may or may not be coming in We know Vader, he's already being talked about on television So he's going to be getting a big push Television There you go We have that in, boy howdy It is announced that Jake Roberts is going to be in Allegedly, it's supposed to be just a one-off And he's got some religious bookings he wants to keep Maybe he'll work occasionally, but it doesn't look like he's married to the WWF. Doug Gilbert is mentioned as coming in as a one-off for a USWA representation. We haven't spent much time talking about Doug Gilbert. How does Doug find his way into the Royal Rumble? My favorite of Lawler, but also I love Doug Gilbert. I love Eddie Gilbert and had the same affection for Doug. I got to work with Doug in Global, and he's just, I think he's one of those guys that, I don't know, have a soft spot for him. I think he was a good worker, but I also just found him to be a good person. I enjoyed my time with him, and it was an opportunity to use him, give a little love to the USWA, and give a little love to Doug. why don't you think Doug ever got a real shot in the WWF? I know we worked some joint shows with USWA, WWF, but this Royal Rumble show is really the only WWF branded program that he was ever on. But if you, you loved Eddie and you love Doug and he thought a lot of him and had a soft spot for him. Could you not advocate to get him a gig or was he not Vince's cup of tea or what do you think? I don't think it was Vince's cup of tea, but I think his reputation preceded him. and I think there was a lot of apprehension because of that reputation. I never experienced a bad Doug Gilbert, so it was hard for me to speak to that. I could only speak to the good. I could only speak to the fun that we had and how he treated me. And he always treated me top-notch. And I just, again, I'm partial. I love them Gilbert boys love their dad Tommy he was a great guy and Eddie I was close to Eddie and just you know I wouldn't have gotten to the WWE if it weren't for Eddie Gilbert and so I'm always grateful but also again just the relationship that I had with Doug and I always liked him another one-off that we mentioned earlier coming in from Japan, Amori. Why is Amori chosen? I ain't got a clue. I seriously don't have a clue. I mean, I'm done for him here. Well, yeah. Yeah, I couldn't tell you other than try to get some representation from as many outside entities that we could to come in and be like, ooh, wow. And for international purposes, maybe that was the reason to get him on. And, yeah, I couldn't tell you anything beyond that. I also want to mention Kama Mustafa. Kama is going to be coming in here. I guess he had his last WWF appearance in early December, but he is going to come back and make an appearance at the Royal Rumble, and then he's going to go off into the sunset for a bit. it's not until 1997 before we see him return. And we know eventually he'll become the Godfather and boy, he has a whole new lease on life. Uh, talk to me about getting him back in just for the Royal rumble. Was he just easy to do business with? And he's sort of transitioning to outside interests outside of wrestling. Yeah. Oh my God. Bear was always easy to do business with. I, I, another guy that, um, I hold in high regard and, uh, Yeah, he's one of the most easygoing, but by God, don't you cross him, but easygoing guy. And always, always a delight to do business with him. He's also one of those people that you want to have around because always has a smile on his face, always in a good mood, and I think that he brings people up and he brings good vibes with him. we would start to see in January promos for Mick Foley. Now, of course, he's going to be coming in as Mankind. He doesn't actually start on TV until the night after WrestleMania, but you are getting some opportunities to just, you know, sort of feel him out and figure out how this is going to fit. were you optimistic that Cactus Jack as this new version of this character Mankind would actually have legs in the WWF? Because it does feel like, man, you're trying a lot of new stuff. You know, Goldust, Mankind. And then you're bringing in outside forces like Vader, bringing back legacy names like Warrior and Jake. This feels like a company really open to trying a lot of new things. Is that fair to say? Yes. Yeah, it was in a transitional period. that we were trying new things and just experimenting and looking at different characters and bringing some new blood in. But I think everybody was optimistic as far as the mankind character. All right, folks, listen up. Last week, President Trump announced that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were going to buy more than $200 billion worth of mortgage bonds. And then I actually saw the next morning on CNBC, the head of the FHFA, Well, he says it's actually $225 billion. Now, what does this mean? It means that there's going to be more demand. And what does that mean for you? It means cheaper rates. As I'm recording right now, rates are lower than they've been in more than three years. And it's free to find out how much money you can save right now. But if you've been on the fence waiting for better rates, this could be the second chance you've been looking for. 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NMLS number 2129, Equal Housing Lender. savewithconrad.com or send me an email conrad at savewithconrad.com I wanted to ask you about a story about Sabu here it mentioned that Sabu expressed interest and wanted Dennis Corluzzo to contact the WWF about getting him in for one shot and it written in the observer they even worked out a finish to protect him where he throws someone over the top then do a plush over the top on the guy through a table but by going over the top he would have eliminated himself while not realizing it it said that Paul Heyman was against the idea saying he wants to do a pay-per-view show in a few months and he doesn't want Sabu or anyone else he's building the show around working anyone else's pay-per-views right now of course Sabu allegedly still wants to do it but Heyman is promising a bigger payoff and a better spot on the show and Heyman even does a show at the ECW arena basically telling Sabu he would make him a pay-per-view star and saying how the WWF was begging to get Sabu in the Rumble, but he wouldn't let him go. So talk to me about how this. Wait, wait, wait. Who was begging to get him in the Rumble? So Sabu allegedly asked Dennis Carluzzo to get him in. Okay. And Paul Heyman does not want Sabu on pay-per-view for the WWF because he's still hopeful that in May of that year, he's going to be able to do a pay-per-view. We know it winds up being April the following year, So we're like 16 months away from this becoming reality. But as the story goes, Heyman goes in the ring in the ECW arena and promises the crowd, the loyal, faithful crowd there, that he's going to make Sabu a pay-per-view star. And he's going to do it before the WWF gets a chance. They're begging for him to be in the Royal Rumble, but I'm not going to let him go there and then ruin him, that sort of thing. and I guess ultimately someone decides we're not going to do that. Is it Sabu who decides that he's not interested or is Vince not interested or are you trying to keep the peace with Heyman? Why doesn't Sabu appear in the 96 Royal Rumble? Well, it's an interesting story. I contacted Sebu contacted Happy first told him I'd like to use Sebu Happy's Heyman by the way yes and yeah fuck it so I called Sebu and said hey would like to use you in the rumble and what have you. And we thought and not to I probably did it to protect him for Paul. The spot. Yes, that is a spot we had to have him basically eliminate himself and go out because that's what he did, which was like You did that the next year with Mill Massacres, by the way. Well, yeah, that was for other reasons. No, yeah. no meal no yeah no yeah I gotta find my mask around here somewhere wear that one day but wow so and it was like and that was kind of the pitch it was like you know alright we'd love to have you and Sabu says to me I don't have a problem with it, but you need to speak to my uncle. The sheep. Ed Farhat. And I said, okay, what do I need to talk to him about? About if this is good for my career or not. Okay. I mean do you want to talk to your uncle? I mean I don't know what me talking to your uncle is going to be any different than you talking to your uncle. If you want to do it then talk to him. Tell him you want to do it and get his advice. If you don't want to do it we won't do it. He says I'd really appreciate it if you would talk to him and if you would call him. I said sure. so I call the number in Detroit gentleman answers the phone hello I said hello this is Bruce Pritchard with WWE now please speak to Ed Farhat and he says who's this Bruce Pritchard I'm with WWE and we were interested in using Sabu at the Royal Rumble and I was calling to speak to Mr. Parhat. He goes, this is the Sheik! Okay. Well, Mr. Sheik, talk to your nephew and explain to him that we'd like to use him in the Royal Rumble and we'd like to feature him. Not going to win, but I think we have a unique way to have him eliminate himself doing the spot that he does with the tables and what have you and he ends up eliminating himself says yeah no it's not good for him okay well hey thank you for your time hangs up so that's, I mean, it just ended there. I was like, fuck this. It's one of the and it is a pet peeve of mine, it's a pet peeve of several others in the industry where I do not like to deal with agents or managers or lawyers. I like to deal with talent. And the reason for that is that when you're there producing it, when you are there actually doing what they're contracted to do and you're putting together a show, the agent or the manager or the lawyer or the friend or the mother or the daughter or the uncle or whatever ain't there either. And I'm not going to deal with them and negotiate a finish with somebody other than the talent. And so yeah, I was I was done at that point. I was like, okay, next. Called Sabu back, said, yeah, your uncle doesn't think it's good for your career. Give me a call. You ever think this might be good for your career? Bye. That was it. I know it was, you told us about the rumble spot, you know, where he was going to eliminate himself accidentally, putting somebody through a table. But hypothetically, do you think Vince would have been open to bringing in Sabu full-time on the other side of that? Or was that always intended to be a one-off, a special attraction for the Rumble? It was a one-off. But honestly, yeah, I would have loved to have brought Sabu in at the time. And again, I had never dealt with him. But, you know, it's funny to hear the Heyman side of things. Because, look, Paul would tell me how difficult he was to deal with and what have you. And then, you know, but Paul, look, Paul's got to deal with his talent. Paul had to keep his locker room and his shit together. And I think Paul was very, you know, rightfully so, protective of what he had there and didn't want anything to interfere with that and to jeopardize any of that. So it's like, okay, cool. But at that point, man, I didn't, I was done with Sabu at that point. Man, what could have been? Well, but also, it's kind of like I met your uncle. And it's kind of like you being offered something. and say, ah, talk to my uncle about it. You're your old man. Yeah. And is your uncle the one that I need to deal with here to make this decision? Because I don't want your uncle. I don't know your uncle. I don't want you. so I think in some ways between his uncle and I think Sheik had some antiquated ways he had a tremendous career and a tremendous territory for a time and that's very important you look back at the Detroit area and go, oh my god, boy, the sheep, they did all this business. They did. But over a period of time, he also killed that territory too with just all the blood and guts. And sheep could leave, you know, go out and go do other territories and make shots and all this stuff. And he made his money elsewhere while the territories, you know, on the downswing. But yeah, that was an interesting one for me. Let's talk a little bit about a report from The Observer that fans have talked about for a long time, but nobody really knows the story. Maybe you can shed some light on it. It was reported a few weeks back on the Jim Shimon 900 line that Shawn Michaels inherited $2.5 million from a wrestling fan that he didn't even know had passed away. Meltzer would say, this is a true story. It happened a few months back and word just got out. Michaels had intended to keep it quiet at the press time. At the press conference, Michaels in Fresno was asked about this and got really mad and said no comment and said to never bring the subject up again. Michaels still wants to continue wrestling, although he's probably moving into a bigger house. Why do you think Sean was so hesitant to talk about this? Was he just embarrassed that a fan would do this? It's a weird story, I admit. Yeah, I don't know. and I never talked to him about it however I will say this if there are any rich fans out there that would like to put me in their will and leave their entire fortune to me I won't be embarrassed by it and I will be happy happy to accept it my DM's are open and I can help Bruce with that and Bruce I'll just keep a small finder's fee and we'll get you guys very small tiny Yes, tiny. Normal 0.05%. Why do you think that's one of those stories that people always whisper about, but nobody ever, it's never like on the record, there's never been a clear-cut path to an answer. It's, I don't know. I'm like you. I don't think it would be, hey, this guy was such a fan of me, he left me some money, or this lady or whoever it was left me a bunch of money. Yeah, I don't know. Weird. Now you're going to make me ask him about it. well find out for us by god because i never have i i mean i never have i i probably heard it in lore um but i i couldn't tell you one way or the other i i remember it i remember the buzz about it but don't know don't know the extent of it don't know why what or whatever but yeah sean was popular maybe just a big fan but by god i'm gonna leave everything to sean michaels okay Yeah, we can make that happen if you want to do that for Bruce Let us know Please The Observer would also say Aisling Allen, who was originally going to be Sister Love Was in a video with Hunter Hearst Helmsley So she may be his valet Either way, it's clear She's going to have a major role this year Who was this? Why didn't she end up amounting to anything in the WWF? And what the heck was Sister Love going to be? Once upon a time, Bruce Who? Ashley Allen do you remember there being a discussion of a sister love I don't I know back in the day that I always wanted to have a sister love she's a playboy playmate man I have no recollection of that like I said back in the day to be a part of the Brother Love Show and do that? Yes, I had designs on having a heel, like a Sherry. It's kind of like a sister love. And that was also to manage and to do. I don't. She came out on the Raw Ball. First of all, she's from San Antonio. Okay. She was Playmate of the Month in August of 92 in Playboy. and I guess she was on the Raw Bowl that you guys do in early January of 96. I can make me write it down, Conrad. She just came down the ramp and I guess Sash saying Raw Bowl 96 or whatever like that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the story is supposed to be. I'm going to look it up, by God, and I'll see if that jogs my memory anymore. Yeah, I don't remember. What a lovely sister. Do you think the idea was to have her be the heartlet in some sort of Jim Baker type storyline? And that's maybe where the sister love came from? Because I know sometimes you guys would play off of things that had happened on TV. Like you had a person. Yeah, but brother love wasn't a character at that point. No. Maybe it was an internal nickname. I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably what's throwing me off. I mean, I'll probably go look her up and do some background and figure out, oh, okay, I remember her and things of that nature. But the sister love stuff, I think I would have known about that. Yeah. It's weird because I think she winds up leaving the company. She does some. She worked for the company? Yeah, I mean, she walked around. Or she just did a couple appearances? I'm not sure. you know who knows what you got because there was there were times that we would have uh we need more sexuality on the show or we need we need more of this more of that and we would hire models and try them out in different things is just to have them interact or to do a little something with them and things of that nature but yeah this is a new one for me well let me ask you The Brother Love thing is something I wanted way back when. Once upon a time, wasn't there an idea of bringing back Brother Love to manage, like, the Headbangers or something? Wasn't that 96? Was that 97? I don't know. That was Shotgun Saturday Night and did it for a couple of episodes. So that's late 96, which will be early 96. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? But that was out of shotgun Saturday night. Anything can happen. Oh, my God, Brother Love appeared and did this. I was never on any of the main shows with them or did anything like that. And at this time, I certainly wasn't looking to be back on the road or to be doing any character work on a full-time basis. So that's like, eh, I don't know, man. I'm not, but again, back in the day. Yeah. All right, guys, check this out. Blue Chew just dropped something crazy. I'm talking next level championship gold plated energy. Blue Chew Gold is the newest innovation from the number one chewable ED brand. And let me tell you, buddy, this ain't your grandpa's little blue pill. This is a four-in-one beast that's setting the gold standard for performance. We're talking two ingredients for blood flow to keep that rocket pumping. Mix with epimorphine and oxytocin to turn up the arousal and connection in both your brain and body. Blue-chute gold actually dissolves under your tongue, and it works in as little as just 15 minutes. That means you can get it on quicker and stay in the game longer. Elevation without hesitation. Peak passion and peak performance in a single tablet. it and ladies if you're listening both of you send your man the link and make him a trophy husband with blue chew gold make life easier by getting harder and discover your options at blue chew.com and we've got a special deal for our listeners get 10 off your first month of blue chew gold with the code wrestle that's promo code wrestle visit blue chew.com for details and important safety information and we thank blue chew for sponsoring today's podcast before this royal rumble there's a single line in the Observer that reads like this. John Hawk is headed in after the Rumble as a heel. Turns out he's a pretty good podcaster. What say you? Never heard of him. Never heard of him. Wow. One of your great close personal friends. No, you want to know where his tryout match was at St. Bethlehem show. Oh, are you serious? Yes. one of the most famous man I wish I could be at that taping just to see it all happen are you kidding goodbye balls welcome JBL see you later Landell I mean what a and then there's a young Matt Hardy doing the honors for Landell that's a cool show in history exactly exactly so yeah so John John tells the story he might have done a podcast about this I don't know about him coming in and and i was he was working for auto vons in austria or germany where the hell they were and there was only one phone there and it was a pay phone where i could call and it was a certain time and he would be there and that's how i finally got a hold of john and i had him come in and jerry Jerry Briscoe and I saw him that night and were like, hey, want to bring you in. I'm sure other people have different versions of that story, but Jerry Briscoe and mine is the same. Let's talk a little bit about tiptoeing into the Attitude Era. You know, that Bret Hart-British Bulldog match we mentioned earlier from pay-per-view that you're going to show on Monday Night Raw, man, there is a ton of blood in that match. And I think that's one of the reasons I actually like it. I think the atmosphere for SummerSlam 92 at Wembley is unbelievable and unmatched. But the actual match itself, I thought the blood added another layer. I really enjoyed the Bretton Bulldog match. I just recently watched it back and loved it all over again. But when you guys show it on Raw, you know you're going to be showing a very bloody match. So you kind of have like a disclaimer to start. And it's Sonny playing pool And talking about how the action is of a graphic nature And it's very suggestive And this is really about a year and a half Before we start to see Attitude But it does feel like we're trying some more adult-themed stuff here In 96 Who's advocating for that? I don't think Vince Russo is necessarily in the fold I know he's working on the magazine, but I don't think he's in the writer's room necessarily. So, hey, we're going to show a bloody match on Raw. The writer's room was my basement in Monroe. So that was the extent of the writer's room or Vince's dining room table. The only two places we ever wrote. I'm trying to get to the, to advocate, to figure out who's advocating for it. We're going to show a bloody match on Raw, and we're going to have a girl in a bra stroking a, pool stick between her breast disease. And that will be the way we introduced this on Monday Night Raw. It feels a little bit different than maybe what we've been seeing in the years past with the WBF. Yeah, and I think that there was a turn for more sexuality and more adult themes. So that was probably all of us going, what can we do? And that usually Vince leading the charge of what can we do? more provocative on the shows that's a little bit more adult themed without crossing the line. Look, in the old days, you would literally do a big X across the screen. But that X would be strategically placed for how wide it was so that you could just see glimpses of shit. And the first time I ever saw it was with the Blackjacks, either Mulligan or Lanza, And they put the claw on. And when they put the claw on, the guy starts bleeding and all this shit. So they've moved the head and all this stuff all over the place. And you got the X across the head. Watch this. This is censored. But you're seeing it all in glimpses and what have you. Let's talk about the Royal Rumble. We're finally here. It's sold out. January 21st, Fresno's Arena there. 9,600 fans By far the biggest wrestling show Ever In Central California It sold out a few days in advance And the show is A little controversial We'll talk about all of that But I do want to mention before we get going As a reminder We're not too far removed From the whole Marine beatdown story With Shawn Michaels And him having to forfeit the title And all that shenanigans And we know when he comes back You guys do the whole, oh, he collapsed on Monday Night Raw in a match with Owen Hart after Enzigiri. And now Shawn is a beloved babyface. You know, he's just been a heel at WrestleMania the year prior, but now he's a babyface. We're getting ready for him to win the Royal Rumble and achieve his boyhood dream. Was everybody locked in and sold and settled on that as you head to Royal Rumble 96? Was all of that locked in place? yes knew where we were going with that yes so it was I told the story before about the collapsing thing in the ring was it was a time where post concussive syndrome was in the news and it was you know look it was a real thing and Sean was having you know these things early on. Not by the time that he did it in the ring, but thought of, you know, what if? Because it had been a while and again, it was just big in the news. So, what if in the middle of a match don't do anything? And he just collapses. Which just happened. And it happened on the football field. So, it was something that people had been made aware of and seemed to make sense. So, We were looking for Sean to be that baby face and give him that shot. The continuity doesn't necessarily feel like everybody's on the same page. Dr. Jeffrey Unger is going to do an interview saying that Sean Michaels is 100% fine and fully recovered. But a few weeks prior to this, he was saying that Sean should never return to wrestling. and then Sean in his own interview announced that he's returning and he's doing so against the wishes of his doctor meanwhile we're seeing the fucking doctor saying he's 100% the left hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing I'm sure somebody was frustrated by this fair to say well I guess somebody was I wasn't you don't think Vince was either it feels like that would have really annoyed Vince yes no it's like come on man it's a story tell the stories here by God stay with the goddamn story don't tell your own fucking story we're I won't say it I was going to do the Michael Hayes hey I'm over here doing this you just hold his head I know the uncensored version of that I've heard that on Cornette's pod before Vince McMahon is going to be I'm petting this dog you just hold his head Petting is a great way to say it Thank you for that Meltzer was critical of the announcing He said the announcing here was a major weakness He said Vince appeared distracted for most of the show Mr. Perfect was better than he was at Survivor Series So he's getting more familiar with what's going on But he's not up to the level And there were some missed eliminations And a lack of knowledge when it came to moves And things like that When do you think Vince Was there ever anybody behind the scenes saying Hey Vince your highest and best use Is not being an announcer Or was Vince advocating That hey I know how to sell this Better than anybody else Let me pet the dog you just hold its head Chat me through that Was there ever a discussion about Should Vince or shouldn't Vince Be the guy on the mic I think Vince Saw himself as the voice Of WWE and he was the commentator. He felt that he knew how to sell it. And again, a lot of people get confused with what Vince did. People get hung up on, Vince is the worst play-by-play guy in the business. He was. Absolutely. but Vince didn't do play by play Vince told stories and the backdrop was a wrestling match and the idea behind the wrestling match was to tell you a story about why and what and what have you and to build excitement and build intrigue Gordon Stolle told you about the German Supley and J.R. likes to call holds and what have you. It's not fine. J.R.'s a great play-by-play guy. But he had difficulty sometimes telling stories. I think he got there, but it was people confuse what Vince did with play-by-play. Vince never claimed to be a play-by-play guy. he was your host he was the guy that brought you through it he was trying to look at it like a fan and basically a promoter to get you excited and do all this stuff that's why you had the analysis of Bruno San Martino which equated to one line in the replay and you had Jesse Ventura so it was like yeah man you know Dave, if you're just figuring that out now, you hadn't been paying attention. At what point were you running the show at Gorilla? Are you doing that here, like when Vince is out on the headsets here for Rumble 96? Okay. Yeah. Now, I probably wasn't married. I'm trying to think by this time. I may have been actually at Gorilla and running Gorilla and doing all of it. Um, but there was like in the, in the early nineties and even going back in the eighties where I had a, uh, wireless headset and I was just kind of doing, still doing everything backstage and still, uh, being able to talk to the truck into Vince, but I wasn't, I wasn't tied down to gorilla at the table. By this time, I want to say I probably was gorilla at the table. Hmm. How was Gorilla different then to now? Because we've seen on Unreal what it looks like these days. But back then, it was a much more simple truck. It was a table with two monitors on it. That's it. That's all it was. Well, you had a way to communicate. So were you able to communicate with the truck and with the announce desk, or what was the setup? No, I was able to communicate with the truck and the vents, not the announcers. just had a separate channel directly to Vince. I got you. He had a separate channel directly to me, which he didn't always use. Most of the time he would just do it over the mics in break. God damn it, Bruce! What the fuck? There is a audio of that from a shotgun Saturday night in San Antonio somewhere that lives. Bruce, what are we doing here? And thank God that's the only thing that they shared from that evening. But because it was live and it was going out on the satellite, people were able to pick it up. We're not going to be able to share that with you here on the show, but we can share it on social media. So by the time you hear this, we will have that up on our social media at Pritchard Show. Go check it out. It was, yeah. So, no, it was just a very simple setup. It was two monitors. Later on, I got the second monitor to be a wide shot of the camera one and camera two, so I could always see everything around the ring, and then I saw a program in the other monitor. But it was me. and we didn't have anybody producing talent, if anything I did but I didn't produce Vince a lot, I would tell Vince where he was going, either me or Kevin Dunn would guide him as far as where you're going what you're coming into, what you're going out of and things like that but for the most part we all had our shit and I was kind of running the backstage guerrilla Let's talk a little bit about the dark match here because this was fantastic. I guess it's actually on the pre-show. Duke the Dumpster Drosé. Drosé. Yeah, I know. I like Drosé. If that name, exclamation point over the E, that would be Drosé. I think he's out, Bubba. He beats Hunter Hearst Helmsley by DQ in six minutes and 25 seconds. And Meltzer would say, this was the unannounced pre-show match where the winner would get to enter the Rumble at number 30, and the loser would be the first one in. I got to tell you, I really like that. Do you remember whose idea that was or how that came to be? I would be a fan of that being a thing now. That's a fun twist. Probably either me or Cornette. It sounds like something we would do. Yeah. Not something Vince would give me beef for. I don't know. I give some shit. But, yeah, it's a good one. Let me steal that. Let's talk about the first match that night. Ahmed Johnson is going to get a win over Jeff Jarrett by DQ. The announcer would say Johnson is really green, and the transitions from spot to spot were weak. Jarrett tried to carry it, but it's hard when nobody buys Johnson being in trouble because he's so physically impressive, and he doesn't know how to sell to overcome his impressive size. Either way, though, we know there's going to be the big guitar shot off the top rope. That gets the DQ. The guitar shot sounds like a million dollars. Johnson's going to kneel over from the shot, but he recovers before Jeff can get back in the dressing room. He gets up and chases him and never catches him. Star and a quarter. Yes, he did. Caught him backstage. We just didn't have any cameras available. I saw the whole thing. Hope you got it right in the eye. J.C.W. Lunacy New episodes every Thursday night at 7pm on YouTube For over 25 years J.C.W. has delivered the very best in pro wrestling entertainment bringing fans deep storytelling drama gut-busting comedy and unbelievable in-ring action From wild characters to unforgettable rivalries Don't miss a single moment Tune in every Thursday night at 7pm on YouTube J.C.W. Lunacy You see early in his career, in the WWF at least, Ahmed Johnson is doing some crazy stuff for a guy his size. He's doing dives over the top rope to the floor. He's doing moonsaults. That does feel like as a fan that would be a big part of his appeal, but eventually it stops. Is that because there were just injury risk concerns? Is that not the style of a WWF big man? It didn't fit. Okay. It really didn't fit. During that time, you're trying to create a big monster baby face in Ahmed, and he didn't look like the guy that would do a lot of stuff. Then, also, yes, injuries, because it was dangerous for who he was in the ring with and dangerous for him because he didn't know how to protect people in a lot of those things that he did. and that probably the bigger issue and you can use the the antidote and the excuse if you will to say hey man big man shouldn't be doing all those things oh yeah right right right but it was really like hey people don't want to take you lay there for your moonsault man nobody wants to catch you dog so it was it was part of safety for Ahmed and safety for who he was working with talk to me a little bit about Ahmed and Jeff um Ahmed did a shoot promo if you will in 97 and he targeted Jeff as part of that was there any hurt feelings over this guitar shot do you know if these guys ever were crossing anyway no how do you target Jeff well I don know I guess he was just taking shots at him in promos and everybody ever since has wondered hey was there heat over this finish or the guitar shot? Because, you know, through the years we've all heard Jake the Snake say that, you know, his addiction problems, a lot of them really started with the Honky Tonk Man guitar shot. And so... I don't think they started there. Well... But, hey, no, the Honky Tonk guitar shot to Jake was legit and that was a guitar that had the rod going down the back of it to reinforce it. That guitar wasn't gimmicked in any way, shape, or form. And that guitar shot really fucked Jake up. Let's talk a little bit about the next match here. The Smoking Guns are going to be in there with the Body Donnas. Of course, that's Chris Candido and your brother. And they're going to go 11 minutes and 14 seconds. Meltzer would say everyone worked hard, but for whatever reason it didn't click uh they get two stars uh sonny's going to be distracting the ref so there can be a uh account the body donnas go for the double suplex on bart but as he's in the air billy tackles him bart falls on zip and that's the pin and sonny's never really thought of as someone with training to bump uh much less being a big bump taker and she's going to take a big spill from the hard apron to the floor bump like she did here. Where were you and the company on Sunny at this point? We know at the end of the year, we're going to start taking victory laps, saying she's the most downloaded woman on AOL and all that sort of thing. But was that all apparent in 1996, like in January to start the year? Did we already think that, hey, this is where we're headed with her, and she's the superstar? Oh, we were on our way, absolutely. she was the superstar of the bunch at that time yes and again that's a big part of the issue went with God the guns and what have you and kind of make a little baby face funny but wait a minute Zip dropped Paul that's fucked up I don't think Skippy would have dropped Paul if your brother had his druthers if your brother had his druthers who uh what would his gimmick in the wwf would be probably not a body donna fair to say correct what do you think it would have been a dr tom character dr john richard yeah okay you know i did a search the other day um trying to remember who the the doctor was that we used to use, and this was even before my time. There was a doctor in California that we used to use, and I typed in WWE slash WWF doctors, see what names had come up. It gave the president, head of the medical that we currently have, and one of our doctors currently and like two other names and then the fifth doctor on the list Dr. Tom Pritchard I love that this was a real list that someone had compiled of the actual behind the scenes doctors in the WWE old Dr. John Richards was number five I was like god damn And then it was on something Somebody trying to be credible And it's just like okay Do you remember Sonny being hurt in this match I only ask because I don't think She took any other bumps in the company This may have been the only physicality she had In the WWF No but I Look I think she took bumps Smoky Mountain and What have you It was not something she hadn't done before We weren't high on ballets and things like that taking bumps at this juncture. We've got to talk about the next match. This is when we see Razor Ramon. I'm sorry, I've got to walk that back because Sherry did. Sherry was a great bump taker. She's a great worker. Speaking of trying things with attractive ladies, Marlena is going to be making her debut here. She's going to come out with Goldust. This is an interesting twist to the presentation. Meltzer would describe her as nicely dressed with an unlit cigar in her mouth and a director's chair. The next day, we find out she's Marlena. Of course, in real life, she's Terry Ronalds, the real-life wife of Goldust. And we had seen her in WCW as Alexandra York before. How does Marlena come to be a part of the Goldust presentation? Is Vince high on her? Is that a Dustin's suggestion? What do you remember? I think we were all high on her. And it was an interesting presentation. So there was a bit of heat on the androgynous character that was Goldust. So to add to that controversy, but also to play into it, it's like, it's not a gay character. He's got this female that is with him. So to be able to rub her up against him and wonder, what is this relationship? Are they in a relationship? is, you know, what exactly is it? So that was the thinking behind Marlena and bringing her in. We were all pretty high on the Marlena character. There's lots of unpleasant chants at Goldust, something that would never happen these days. In the end, 14 minutes and 17 seconds later, Razor Ramon's time here comes to an end. He's going to drop the Intercontinental title to Goldust, the 1-2-3 kid is a part of the finish here and that allows Goldust to get the pin what do you think of this match I know Razor was reluctant to do it I'm sure that sprinkling in a little 1-2-3 kid may have been a negotiation or at least that's the way it feels to me how did that happen? I think obviously you need somewhere to go afterwards But what to me is a shame is that we didn't do more. Yeah. Because I thought they did have good chemistry. And they, man, it was great. So it's like, all right, you know, but Razor didn't want to do it. And my point in all this is that was Razor half-assing it because he didn't want to do it. And it was still damn good. So to me, my takeaway is what a shame. What could have been? Allegedly, immediately after this is when we're going to find out that Razor Ramon is going to be suspended for a marijuana failure on a drug test. Of course, these days, I don't think that's nearly as big of a deal. But once upon a time, it was illegal in all 50 states. We know the laws have changed since. So, but there's been a bit of a debate about this suspension. You know, was it a true suspension or not based on him leaving for WCW? What was the correct timing on this? Was it an old test failure that once he puts in notice is then enforced? Or is that just silliness? Hey, he gave us notice, but we got the drug test around the same time. It was just a happy accident. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you the actual series of events. I have no idea. But I know when I'm informed of shit. I'm informed when he was suspended. First of all, I didn't know when drug tests were taking place and when results were given. Do you remember being at this show when you think back to January of 96? Did you know Razor was leaving and going to WCW? Had he already put in notice by this point, as best you can recall? I don't think so. I think we found out right after. But maybe he did. Because if you go back, you know, the 90 days, that probably would tell you the time frame. And if it was, you know, less than 90 days or whatever, more than 90 days, we probably didn't know. Let's talk a little bit about the rumble match. We know this is a vehicle to make Shawn Michaels. He's going to win the rumble, 58 minutes and 49 seconds. He's going to super kick Diesel over the top rope, just as Diesel is eliminating comma. They're going to play everyone's entrance music as they're coming down. different times they didn't always do that so that's really added a lot to the presentation and I'm glad it stuck around something that stands out when you watch this fact though January of 96 so this is a year and a half before the silly NWA invasion angle of 97 when Dory Funk comes out Vince McMahon acknowledges him as being a former NWA world champion and said his brother Terry was in Germany with Bruce Willis and mentioned that Terry was also invited to be in the Royal Rumble. That's kind of a cool thing. Very rarely did we hear Vince McMahon acknowledge another organization on TV like this. That's kind of cool. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, when you, without going back to Haas Funk at WWE, you know, that was Dory's claim to fame. Dory was the longest reigning NWA World Heavyweight Champion simultaneously four and a half years. So that was Dory's claim to fame, and Dory was, I think, best known by everybody as a former NWA champion. And Hall's bump. Meltzer's going to heap a lot of praise on Doug Gilbert, saying that even though he got zero crowd reaction, his work and his bumps in particular were really, really good. Of course, Bader is going to dispense of him fairly quickly. He's even going to throw out one of the members of the squat team. We haven't spent any time talking about them today. The headhunters. This is like if me and Dave Silva got tanned and shaved our heads and learned how to do moonsaults. How in the world did the headhunters become a part of the WWF here? Oh, Victor Quinones. Victor Quinones was one of the owners in Puerto Rico. and Victor also helped book in Mexico and Japan and just several different organizations and had ties to several talents. He wasn't necessarily a manager, but yet he got people booked and I'm sure he took a percentage here and there when he got guys booked or they paid him up front, the folks for us. Victor was on payroll. so that was his job was to find us and get us talent people we wanted to use so yeah the squat team didn't really work out i think the squat team when they uh came out with cornet on tv is is a moment in time that jim cornet wishes that he could uh wipe away it was absolutely horrible great guys unbelievable guys man spent a lot of time with them in Mexico and they took me all over Mexico and were absolutely just a load of fun and as their headhunter gimmick basically baby Abdullah's was very successful in Puerto Rico and in Mexico and in Japan but if you can imagine These guys were probably 350, each of them identical twins. And in Mexico, their taxis are green and white Volkswagen Bugs. So I'm 230. They're 350. And we're getting into a taxi. one of them gets in the front seat and I get in the back seat with the other one in the driver and you talk about a scene it just was uh I remember being there going how the fuck are we doing this um but you know man they they commanded respect and they were they were really good good class guys I liked them both it's a new year and colder days means this is the moment your winter wardrobe really has to deliver. If you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last season after season. Quince brings together premium materials, thoughtful design, and enduring quality so you stay warm, look sharp, and feel your best all season long. Quince has everything you need. Men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather, and suede outerwear that actually hold up to daily wear and still looks good. Their outerwear is especially impressive. 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Refresh your winter wardrobe with Quince. Go right now to Quince.com slash wrestle for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Quince.com slash wrestle. Free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash wrestle. Quince.com slash wrestle. Let's talk a little bit about Vader. He's going to be on a collision course With Yokozuna They're going to go at it And eventually Vader goes down after a headbutt And when they start Battling each other near the ropes Here comes Shawn Michaels who eliminates them both Then he's going to throw out The 1-2-3 kid But Vader himself gets back in And he throws everyone in the ring out Grilla Monsoon's going to come in He goes jaw to jaw With Vader And Monsoon is going to overrule all the eliminations Vader did after being eliminated. So we're going to restore some order, and we know where we're headed. The legend is that Vader tore his shoulder back at Bash at the Beach in Huntington Beach in that match on the beach there with Hulk Hogan, and he needed surgery, but you guys still wanted him to make a splash at the Rumble before he had surgery? Is that the way that all went down? Yes. Yeah, we got damaged goods, and he didn't tell us until after he was signed, and it was like, okay, well, you've got to have the surgery anyway. So let's go out and make a splash and let's do this and give a reason. Give you a debut, give you an impactful debut, and then give a reason for you to go away. Bob Holly is in the Royal Rumble, but it's said that he wasn't supposed to be. Originally, this was a spot for Bam Bam Bigelow, who Dave Meltzer would report was the only no-show for the Rumble. What do you remember about Bam Bam Bigelow and Bob Holly here? I don't. I don't. This may have been at a point where Bam Bam had just gotten fed up and left. But as far as no-show, I don't know at what point that we knew that Bam Bam wasn't going to be there or not. He always got extras. And if Bob Hodley had won that Royal Rumble and gone on and wrestled Bret Hart at WrestleMania, and then by God he won the belt and he just beat everybody I think it could have worked you never know hey let's talk about Steve Austin he's going to make his Royal Rumble debut here he actually started with the company earlier this same month January of 1996 but when he comes to the ring that day Vince McMahon introduces him on commentary Steve Austin, known as the Ringmaster, chat me up. We know that this doesn't last too terribly long. I mean, we're only a few months of the Ringmaster. Did you have, obviously, nobody probably would have predicted what Stone Cold was going to become. But when he's running out to the Rumble in 96, I don't think anybody would have imagined. He's going to be the biggest, fastest rising star in wrestling next year at the Rumble. and quote-unquote win the thing, and I know we did Final Four and all that. But what a year that had to be, that transition from Rumble 96, his first Rumble, to Rumble 97. You want to talk about moving up the food chain in a hurry. Whatever it is, he had it, and you guys saw it fairly soon, did you not? Yes, and a lot of that goes to early matches with Shawn Michaels where they went around in live events. No program, no angle, no nothing. And Sean, they would go out and do 40 minutes every night. And Sean would, every chance he got, say, this is the guy. Put me with him. I want to work with him. This is the guy. My God, he can do it all. He's fucking great. Everybody wanted to work with Steve because it's just he loved it. He went out and enjoyed everything he did, and you saw that. So, yeah, this was just the beginning, kind of showing it. And, you know, Steve puts everything he has into everything he does. And this was his opportunity to show these guys. I hate fucking Ringmaster. So he would give it every chance he could to just show people what he could do. I want to encourage people to check this out Because believe it or not This is actually Steve Austin's Just his third match in the WWE He debuted on Monday Night Raw Beating a young Matt Hardy On December 18th In Newark Delaware That would have been December 18th The very next day he gets a win For Superstars It's a Superstars taping where he beats A young Scotty Tuhati Who was billed as Scott Taylor And once again motherfucking Bethlehem what I mean if I could go back and watch any TV taping in history I think I might choose December 19th 1995 I mean for JBL's having his tryout it's Stone Cold's second night in the company see you later buddy Lindell sorry about your damn luck Xanta Claus what an eventful damn live event that was yeah it's crazy when you you know you go back and sometimes go back and watch the Superstars and Challenge tapings from the late 80s and see the enhancement talent that is there. Not all of them, but look, there's a few stars that came out of that, just young talent and what have you. And I remember the Hardys when we signed them, gave them their contracts, and they had to tell me how old they were. And I'm looking at them. I remember it was in a vomitorium talking, and I said, wait a minute. Dude, you guys have been since, I remember you guys like in 89 and stuff. And they're like, yes, sir. And then they thought they were in trouble because they, at least Jeff was underage. And, yeah, good times. But, again, you look back at some of that talent in the 80s and stuff that later on became stars and became names. And it happens. Quite a few. Quite a few. But then even more so during this time frame. Let's talk about the end of the match. About 58 minutes in, Shawn Michaels is going to drop kick Isaac Yankum out. So that's going to be Isaac Yankum's last Royal Rumble appearance. Next year, Isaac Yankum will be fake diesel And the year after that He's going to be I can't believe this is real Setting the Undertaker on fire At Royal Rumble 98 So think about his run in Rumbles Isaac Yankum, fake diesel And then Kane I need to correct you on some things First of all, going back It's not Newark, Delaware It's Newark, Delaware Thanks for that That was helpful We all gave it. Listen, the population of Newark was, I've already got eight texts, and we haven't even released the show yet. No. People say, it's Newark. There's 30,000 people in the town. This wasn't Diesel. His name is not fake Diesel. It was Diesel. Diesel. Glenn Jacobs portrayed a Christmas tree, a Unabomber, Isaac Jankum, DDS. An evil dentist who didn't value his own teeth. No. Diesel and Kane. And then he was the undead slash dead. The mayor of Knoxville County, whatever, is in Tennessee. soon to be governor of Tennessee I hope I don't know if he is or not I always tell him that shall I call you governor yet Bruce I'm not running for governor yeah yeah we see Diesel and Kama throw out Duke and the final man in that leaves Diesel and Shawn Michaels and Kama and Smith Davey Boy goes out because Shawn Michaels clotheslines him over the top followed by Diesel throwing out Kama And then what do you know, Shawn Michaels super kicks Diesel out of the ring. Shawn Michaels is the champ. They're teasing that Diesel is going to attack Shawn, but instead they do their high-five routine. But that's interesting because we're going to be transitioning. After he high-fives the baby-faced Shawn Michaels, who just super kicked him out of the ring, he's going to push Paul Bearer. The Undertaker, I guess, meets with Diesel on the aisle as they're passing each other, and Diesel shoves Paul Bearer, and these guys square off. The officials have to pull him apart. It's hard for me to reconcile the high-five to Shawn Michaels. Like, either you're happy that that guy won, or you're pissed off you lost, and you're pushing Paul Bearer. Can it be both? What happened to him? Exactly. It can be both. Show respect to Sean and congratulatory to his little buddy. And then I'm pissed off that I lost. Now there's this large mortician in my way. Oh, yes. Let's talk about that Rumble match before we talk about the world title match. Where do you rank the 96 Royal Rumble? I know this one feels like it's one of the more forgotten ones. A lot of people, myself included, count 97 as their favorite rumble. Others would reference 92. Where does 96 rank for you? You are trying to bring in some outside forces, and there's a lot of what could have been with the Dan Severins who didn't appear, with the Sabus who didn't appear, that sort of thing. But I also view it as fun. And I think I look at it as fun, and this from a personal standpoint, standpoint, I look at it because Dory Funk Jr., my childhood hero, was in it because Doug Gilbert got to be in and have a moment. And in many ways, we were crowning the next guy in Shawn Michaels. So I looked at it as fun. And it had a lot of, as Pat Patterson would say, I love a Gaga, I had a face, that's your day. I poofs. Let's talk about the main event. This is not the best match we ever saw with Bret Hart and The Undertaker. It feels like in 97, these guys had much better matches. For whatever reason, it's not really clicking here. And maybe it's because they're both positioned as babyfaces. At this point, you know, there's mixed cheers. At some points, people are booing Bret. At other points, they're really booing The Undertaker. I don't think fans maybe knew how to feel about this. But ultimately, we know that we're going to get a DQ. Diesel is going to get involved. He's going to grab the ref and throw him out of the ring. And this is after Undertaker's made a comeback and hit the Tombstone Piledriver. So it does feel like, hey, maybe the Undertaker was just screwed out of the world title shot. What did you think of the match? Why didn't it click as well as their matches in 97? Was it the babyface dynamic or was there something else at play? It was the babyface dynamic, without a doubt. And look, there's times that you wrestle with that from the standpoint of you put two popular guys in there. Well, who is the audience going to root for? And if you divide the audience, not always a good thing. So I think in this situation, I don't know that it was a bad thing, but the audience was definitely conflicted on who to root for and at what time. but also it was it was a little bit of a turbulent time because business wasn't good and people were upset the razor shit and you know there were just odd goings on at the time and it was it was a moment in time where as you reflect that so many things have more meaning now than they did in the time because in the time it just felt tumultuous that and you couldn't you couldn't put your finger on why and when you can look back at it with 2025 goggles and you can say okay well diesel was unhappy and diesel was looking to make a move razor was making his move so maybe that's why they were difficult to deal with at that point in time so you're just you're just battling other other things that are that are conflicted so um everybody felt it and i think it's just i think it just kind of fed everything and it was it was a black cloud over everything that and i say that looking back on it at the time he's going shit man you know maybe maybe it's off a little bit but overall you know i thought the show was a good show and i think that you know the taker and brett match was look man was it their best one no but it also wasn't bad and we were trying to tell other stories and get to taker and diesel and you know you got to get brett over because we got to go brett and sean and we got to start telling that story immediately after so it just There were a lot of things that we didn't know in the time that you can look back at and go, okay, well, that may have been happening during this time. And that could be a reason why things felt off. But at the same time, I don't think that it was bad. Like the Razor stuff, Razor Goldust stuff was good. And I just wish it could have played out more. Let me ask you, if you had to do over again, Again, I know fuck all about wrestling, so I'm trying to learn. Would you have still formatted this the same way? Would you have finished with the Rumble match last and send them home happy? Because a lot of people come to the Royal Rumble to see the Royal Rumble. And I know at different times we tried things like this where the title match was after. Could it have made more sense to finish with a DQ if you know that's your finish of your world title and then do the Royal Rumble? Or would you do it this same way if you had it to do all over again? Maybe. but we know that now we didn't know that thing right you're going you're you're going into and looking at it let's let's end with the championship match again hindsight's 2020 so if if we knew then what we know now maybe we would have then again maybe we wouldn't have too so it's it's just in the moment you know and you it's funny um people that don't have to make decisions in life are usually the loudest to critique decisions that are made by other people. And you have to make a decision at the end of the day. I always say on Mondays and Fridays, hey kids, 10-15, none of this shit will matter. and you know you go on but at eight o'clock we've made our decisions and this is what we're going to do in 10 15 we've already made decisions so it really doesn't matter so it's you have to have uh you got to make a decision you got to go and that was our decision and that's what we went with and it can be second guessed and I can argue that second guessing to that point. God damn, probably should have been with the rumble. Well, I'm asking you now, like I'm saying, with the benefit of hindsight, all these years later. Maybe. Would you have questioned it? Yeah, maybe, but again, I don't think it was bad because it left you with big questions. Yeah. and that's kind of sometimes how you would like to end a program. You can't always end it, happy, happy, joy, joy. I think, again, I don't know shit about wrestling, but I'm wondering from a flow standpoint, these guys had a really long main event match. I'm wondering, after you've had all that up, up, up, incitement, enthusiasm, oh, my God, who's coming next, of the Royal Rumble, you bring them back down into a lull? Because I don't know. I mean, it feels like today, this may have been, in modern WWE, the title match may have opened the show. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Let me ask you about The Undertaker. How long do you remember, was he cleared to wrestle without the protective mask? I know he had that fractured orbital bone. You guys did like a Phantom of the Opera mask. And was the idea always to have an opponent pull the mask off in his first match back after he's cleared? I mean, it makes sense. Like, hey, if we got it, we might as well use it, right? Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't remember how long that was. We just had to go until they could say, okay, the orbital is completely healed and he's good to go. Just don't take any more elbows and the punches in that eye. Last thing I want to ask you about here. Diesel is going to flip off the baby faces here towards the end of the program. Was that discussed ahead of time? Is he the first person ever to do that on WWF programming? I know a year later, Austin's going to be doing it all over the place. But it does feel like, as we talked about with the bloody match on Raw earlier in the month, the whole viewer discretion is advised with Sonny with her bra out and all that jazz. And now we've got a middle finger. I think a lot of people assume, well, no, that came in with Stone Cold. But no, actually, Rumble 96. That was diesel, man. Yeah. I want to say that was Kevin's idea. But we knew about it ahead of time. Okay. So that was definitely Kevin's idea. And Vince was cool with it. How about that? Yeah. Yep. Well, that'll do it for Royal Rumble 96. Have we said it all? Have we got it all? Is there anything else to talk about in Royal Rumble 96, Bruce? I'm out of rehydration drink, so it's going to have to be. Well, I'm looking forward to next week. We're going to be talking about Royal Rumble 2001. Let us know in the comments below. I can't believe it, Bruce, that you and I have never actually talked about Royal Rumble 01. We've also never talked about Royal Rumble 06. The hits keep on coming with Royal Rumble. Next week is 01. Two weeks from now, it'll be 06. Let us know your comments below here about 01. We'll see you next week right here on Something to Wrestle With. From Bruce Prichard, rock on. Coming up January 30th, join us for a fantastic wrestling experience in Atlanta with AdFreeShows.com. Friday night, it's Promo Class with Tony Schiavone and David Crockett, where you can cut a promo in front of the JCP set from Ric Flair's last match, filmed professionally just for you. Saturday morning, it's time for the Power Plan with Sergeant Buddy Lee Parker and a special guest. Your chance to experience what it's like to get inside a real wrestling ring. Saturday afternoon, WWE Hall of Famer JBL will join us as we gather for the Royal Rumble Watch Along. And the $10,000 game event with Efren. Where one top guy in attendance will have a chance to win $10,000. And Sunday it's time for a WCW Tour of Atlanta. Guided by the one and only Eric Fischoff. Then we'll hit up the DDPY Performance Center. Hooray! And finish the night with a ringside seat for a 1FW TV tape-in. All this and a whole lot more. The first of three planned events this year. Make sure to join us as a top guy with an annual membership at adfreeshows.com. You don't want to miss Eric Fischoff's Power Plant Weekend this January 30th.