This is Scott Becker with the Becker Private Equity and the Becker Business Podcast. We're joined today by Holly Buckley. Holly chairs the healthcare department at McGuire Woods and works at the intersection of healthcare and private equity. We're going to talk today about culture and performance and trying to hit both right, building great organizations that perform great and have great cultures. Holly, talk to us about in the job that you're in, running the national department, you do a tremendous job of recruiting top talent. When you think about organizations that recruit talent, that work on recruiting talent and doing it really well, talk to us a little bit about what are organizations doing well when they get that right? Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts on this. So, and thank you always for having me on the podcast. So I think for organizations that want to recruit top talent, the ones that do it really well, I think that they can really clearly articulate to a candidate why that candidate should choose them. They have to be able to really clearly articulate that and why that person fits within that. So kind of the vision for that person specifically as well as for the platform in general. And I think, too, there was a book that I read a few years ago, and I know we've talked about this before, Scott. but the No Rules, Rules book by Reed Hastings, which is about Netflix and how it built its talent. And one of the themes from that book that I absolutely loved was kind of the theme around excellence. And they called it, it was the idea of hiring stunning colleagues and kind of the idea of wanting to have top performers and how top performers want to be surrounded by other top performers. and they kind of went into what that looked like. And that was really powerful to me. So I think the three things I would say is that organizations hiring top talent, it's the vision for the overall platform, why that person will thrive on that platform, and then the idea that they're going to be surrounded by other stunning, excellent people. And I think that's a key way to get people in the door. Holly, let me ask this question. You talked about those sort of Reed Hastings and Moore. If you're building a great culture of high performers, how do you do that and also try and make sure that people talk about building a culture, everybody's got to be nice, everybody's got to be that, everybody's got to be that. But what does it really mean to build a culture that retains people, that excites people, that brings in great people? It's not all about nice. It's about people want to be around performance too, right? Talk to us about that. Yeah, that's right. And I think another thing that people get wrong is the idea that we have to offer people perks in order to build retention. I think perks are nice, but it's more about consistency and reinforcing the message every single day. And I think the way that we try to build retention is, especially amongst younger folks, and this is true for me. I mean, I've been been at the firm for probably 17 years. But we try and provide people with real responsibility early on. And we invest in people in a very visible, meaningful way. And we create transparency in terms of what it takes to advance. And so when you offer more junior folks, and by more junior, I mean kind of more junior than me, but not necessarily junior, junior lawyers, but people who are still progressing upwards in their career, giving them opportunities, real responsibility, the opportunity to really stretch themselves, combining that with the skills of how to do that, and then telling them where they can go and how they can get there, I think is much more important than kind of perks. And then as you said, having excellent people around them who they can build off. I've had some amazing, excellent colleagues over the years, many of whom I've worked with for the majority of my career. And having that reciprocal relationship with them is really, really special and something that keeps me around. And talk about that relationship building in law firms, professional cultures and so forth. How does that evolve? Because there's got to be a mutual synergy. There's got to be mutual respect. you almost can't force these things. So, you know, you and I have been in the same group for a long time now, and there just some natural aspects that have evolved in the group Other people work with other people How do you see that evolving in the culture And what should management and leadership do about that Can they prod or encourage or persuade people to work with people they're not usually working with? How do you manage some of that and think about some of that? Yeah, it's so interesting because we've recently done more lateral hiring at the partner level than we've ever done before. And so we are somewhat, I believe, unusual in terms of the number of people who have been with the group for either their entire career or substantially their entire career. We had some folks come over when they were first, second, third year associates and then stayed with us all the way up through partnership and made a real career here. And then I always think about how challenging that is for brand new people who come into that and they kind of see these lifers, which is a really nice, encouraging thing that you've got these lifelong career people here. but how that must feel difficult in terms of integrating and becoming part of it. And we've had to be really, really deliberate on it. And it's both something I think we're doing relatively well, but also a huge challenge and something we need to get better at. Because if people don't integrate relatively quickly, they feel like an outsider and they maybe feel remorse about leaving their prior firm and want to leave because they don't feel like they've got in quickly enough or successfully enough. And so we have to be really, really deliberate. So we have a whole lateral integration process where we have forced introductions to people throughout the firm, both within the group and with other departments where people will need to have those interplays, whether it's specialists or people that they can generate work for or people that can bring them into their work. And we make introductions on a scheduled basis because you can't do all of this in the first week. It has to be kind of on a rolling basis. And then also making sure people have the skills they need to go out and build business both within the firm and outside the firm. And so we didn't use to do any of this kind of five years ago, but we've really built this out to kind of force the integration process. But I mean, even just this morning, I was having a conversation with a group of partners in terms of a new attorney that we have with us and the importance on making sure that person gets real work, gets real work very quickly and gets pulled into different client teams. And so I think not having a culture where we've really heavily done lateral integration historically means that people need a lot more prompting and encouragement to do it and to make that successful. So yeah, I think it's both something we're doing relatively well at and can always improve drastically at? Yes. No, I think that what happens is in bringing in lateral partners, bringing in associates, and this is true in almost any business, the stick and retention rate over the long run is often not great in any business. But you end up building a team around those that have the red synergy and really want to grow and really want to stay and really integrate. And there's a lot of things you could do to encourage that. But for example, if you're a leader and you're hiring, the last thing I want in a leader who's hiring is to get discouraged because the hit rate's not perfect because it's never going to be. And then try and learn from, okay, what worked, what didn't work, what's more likely to stick. But it takes a lot on behalf of the person coming into, especially mid-career or later career, unless they're coming into a group where they're just going to be, have a ton of work to do as a service sort of partner. And even there, they've got to develop relationships, but if they're trying to be a service partner and build a business, a book of business and grow, do all those things, and they want to really integrate with the rest of the firm or other people, it does require them to put a lot of intentionality into that. And it's not always fun because not everybody's, most people aren't quite receptive to helping anybody coming in, but it takes some initiative to do that and to do it on a regular basis. It's like developing mentor-mentor relationships. They have to ultimately become mutual and synergistic and where people enjoy working together and finding ways to help each other. But it is- It's really hard. Yeah. I mean, it's really hard, and especially for people who may be slightly more introverted. As you said, it's difficult to kind of find the motivation to do that. And even if people want to be successful, and the lateral attorney themselves is the most important determinant of their own success, right? They person zero and then there a lot of very other important people but that person has to both want it and then make themselves do the things that may be somewhat challenging to them But it takes a lot. But getting over that initial hump, things become easier from that there on out. But that initial hump takes a lot of work to get over. A hundred percent. And we see some people that have just done an incredible job of really growing a presence at the firm. Like Kristen Woodruff is a great example of a lateral partner who's just as done a, grinded it out, built a practice and done just a terrific job. And we see some real great successes there. And it's, you know, and when you have great people like that, you do everything you can to make sure they're excited and happy and move it in the right direction. Yeah, absolutely. But the thing I tell, you know, The job of leading a department involves a lot of recruiting, retaining, working with people. I did 14 years as a department chair, and ultimately, you have to have tremendous energy to do it, and you have tremendous energy in doing it, and you cannot get discouraged when every hire doesn't work. This is just the way of the world. And the worst thing that can happen to a leader is they get gun shy about hiring or somehow or another their organization doesn't live under the same thought process that it is. Hiring is always an integrated partners. Hiring is an educated gambling, educated guess. Profabilities, you're trying to play the properties right, but you're never going to hit it 100 percent. If you're hit at 50%, you're doing a fantastic job. And so the number one thing I try and tell managers is that – the two things I'll tell you in managers is that – leaders is that you cannot get gun shy about hiring. You have to be smart about it and calculated and thoughtful, but you can't get gun shy. The second thing is the job of being that job after doing it for 14 years, I couldn't do it anymore with the right energy and right level. just because the constant growth in recruiting and trying to bring people in is just itself a full-time job in addition to practicing law, in addition to growing a practice, all those things. And it was the – to me, in the long run, it was the most exhausting part of the job and a very, very important part of the job that you're running and do, and you do a fantastic job of it. It's really incredible. But I find it to be – I hate – not hate. I try to discourage managers from getting gun shy, and then I try very hard to make sure that you take care of yourself and don't get burnt out in doing it because it's a full-time job. Let me ask you a question about that, because I burnt out on the job that you're doing at some point and was at least smart enough to turn it over to another person without trying to hold onto the job forever, even though I loved the job overall. Talk for a second about personal strategies that you use to stay energized and positive while leading teams and managing a very demanding practice. How do you sort of take care of yourself, stay energized and positive? And you do a remarkable job, just fantastic, literally. How do you stay with it? Because I know you carry a lot of burdens. You've got two wonderful children, a wonderful husband. You've got a great family. You try and take care of yourself. You do a great job of doing that. How do you do that and stay energized and motivated? Well, and you're also a tremendous friend. So you keep yourself available and accessible to a lot of close friends. How do you manage all that and stay energized doing so? Well, first off, I'll say if you were lacking in energy in the job, it was not apparent to anyone else. But and then I'll say about myself, I'm not sure that I always do, but you kind of do your best and recognize that there's going to be peaks and valleys and you don't let the valleys kind of get you down. But I'd say the couple of things that I try to do is I exercise every day, even if it is. And I do that at the beginning of the day before I do anything else. even if I just did a minimum, make myself go out for a walk. Uh, but I try and lift twice a week. I try and get some cardio in every other day. Um, cause I feel like that really mentally keeps me in a, in a really good spot. And that's just a habit to me that you can't break. Cause once you break it, it kind of falls apart. Um, and then I think the other thing is, is, um, making a deliberate point to do the things that professionally that keep my energy high which those things are really spending the time with the more junior folks than me and helping them with their careers because that really energizing and I think there are some weeks where you just get like smacked from all sides Like you think you going to be doing something and then you end up dealing with like fires and it can be very defeating. But then you kind of refill the tank with some of the things that are really rewarding and that you can kind of use to pick yourself up. So I think that you just you can't always keep your energy high. And then probably when you realize that your energy is low more than it's high is when you need to step back and recognize that it's someone else's turn. Yeah, no, I think that's right. But talk about that. To me, you know, and again, it's so embarrassing to talk about as you get older a little bit. But the energy that one gets, like sometimes I know that junior people feel like they might be bothering me by calling me on an issue, calling on a question or imposing on me. And it's actually the flip side, the energy that comes from dealing with energized people in the growth spot of their career is fantastic for people like you and I. I mean, for me particularly, I'm a lot older than you are, but it just is a great pleasure and it's quite energizing. It's part of what keeps one young too, dealing with younger, inspired, energized people. I mean, I'm very fortunate in my career to get a chance every day to work with people both older that are mentors and younger that are mentors, too, but younger that are at the peak of their career and growing and driving. And it's very, you know, sometimes it's intimidating as someone who's sort of on the later end of their career to be dealing with people in the heart of their career. But it's also incredibly inspiring and energizing. I'd say 97 percent of the time. It's a fantastic thing. It really is. Yeah. So last question. When you're trying to elevate culture and performance, people and performance, how do you think about that over the next six months or anything that specifically you think about doing to make sure you're obviously staying focused on the numbers, the results? Is the group busy enough? Are they taking care of clients well? Are they obtaining clients? But how do you mix that with also making sure the culture works, that people feel that they're striving and energized, that they're self-actualizing? How do you mix those two things? yeah i think it goes back to the beginning and where we started of um of making sure there's a shared vision and that there's alignment on that like what does success look like both culturally and financially um and and i think you you get the vision and then you take your top performers and and this is a scotism you kind of get out of their way um so you don't say know to small things or to immaterial things, you enable people and you support them and then you let them go and not put hurdles in their way. So I think it's both alignment and then just reducing roadblocks for people so that they can be successful. No, I think that's right. One of the things that we have found is this view of thrive, thrive, side by side, not top down. And this concept of constantly looking to exist side by side and thrive, thrive, the people working with me are thriving, I'm thriving, the organization's thriving versus I'm thriving and they're not. I think it's so important to long-term working with people in long-term relationships. You know, there's only for a billion reasons. I think it's just the key to building great teams and encouraging other leaders to evolve and feeling like those other leaders are their own leaders. They are critical leaders. And if I'm the thing I'm probably most proud of my career in the law side is that there's five or six people that I used to mentor that work with mentors probably an overstatement, but that now are my bosses and far more important and elevated and successful at the law firm than I am. And that, that to me is, is the greatest gift. You know, and there's, there's all kinds of keys to that. You got to truly believe that we're all better off. If you're in a thrive, thrive culture, then I want every nickel and don't care if anybody else gets a dime culture. It's just very, very important that you really believe that, that it benefits you, it benefits other people, and it's a really good thing, and you do it tremendously well, and it's a constant challenge to constantly make sure you're thinking constantly. Thrive, thrive, side by side. You know, we've all had leaders that are top-down leaders, and it's just no good in the long run. There's a lot of benefits to it short-term. Long-term, it's no good for really building other leaders and growing other leaders that excel more than you did or side-by-side with you, which is the goal. Holly, thank you so much for joining us. You're a fantastic person and leader. You do an incredible job, just incredible. Thank you so much for joining us again. Thank you. Thank you.
