Whispers in the dark, phenomenon that slip past the logic, legends that refuse to die. When the unknown stirs, its trail leads to our podcast, So Supernatural! I'm Yvette Gentile. And I'm her sister, Roshepekarero. Together, we explore all of the world's most bizarre mysteries. Listen to So Supernatural every Friday, wherever you get your podcast. Our card this week is Teresa Ducevich, the queen of diamonds from Florida. For 50 years, Teresa Ducevich's case was intrinsically tied to another murder, that of Deborah Espie. Both women were 19 years old when they were killed eight months apart back in 1973. Both women were found nude from the waist down. Their shirts pulled up, hands over their head, with head wounds as their cause of death. Deborah's was blunt-forced trauma and Teresa's a gunshot wound. And the wooded areas where each young woman were found were just three miles apart, both near a town called Ironically Enough, Niceville, Florida. But just last year, in 2025, Deborah Espie's case was solved. We've covered it in a past episode. Now, her killer turned out to be an acquaintance of hers, who we originally identified by the pseudonym Donald. But now we can reveal his real name, Dennis Murphy. He's the man who police had suspected from the beginning. But in learning that Dennis killed Deborah, they were able to conclude that he did not kill Teresa. And they did that through DNA testing that directly compared Dennis's DNA to a sample found on Teresa's clothing. Meaning, all the connections that seemed so linked were just coincidence. So now, detectives are looking at Teresa's case with new eyes. And with the momentum of one 1973 cold case solved under their belt, they're hoping that you might help them get another. I'm Ashley Flowers. And this is the deck. On the afternoon of November 21, 1973, deputies from the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office arrived at a wooded area near the Rocky Bayou Country Club. That's where they found the remains of Teresa Ducevich. The young woman had been shot in the head and was on her back with her arms stretched above her. Teresa's remains were in what looked to be a shallow grave about 75 feet off the road. Her hip-hugger bludings were pulled down and her white knit top was pulled around her neck. In addition to the clothes found on Teresa, there was a black coat and a pair of pink underwear found closer to the road. And right around her body was a coke bottle, a pack of cigarettes, and a portable record player with the initials RA on it. That portable record player was always the standout because it never matched any initials for Teresa or people in her circle. And it was the outlier when connecting the case to Debra for all those years because even their main suspect there, Dennis didn't have connections to an RA as far as they could tell. So maybe that was the first sign that this case wasn't connected to Dennis. Another was that Debra and Teresa didn't run in the same circles or even go to the same places. While Debra had a very structured routine, lived with her family and went to a local college campus that she would later go missing from, Teresa was a bit more of a drifter. No one flagged her absence to police before she was found dead. And best they'd been able to tell Teresa had last been seen at the Matador Club, where she often hung out. Or, as Nicole, the Crime Stoppers coordinator explains, it is a gentleman's club in the Aryan Valparaiso. Here's the thing about these cases that date back to the 70s. Nothing is ever the same. Family on drug stores become condos, strip malls now stand where there was once a playground. When you get the idea. But when our reporter went to find out anything she could about this case, she found out that the Matador Club was still there. It was like a time warp to the 70s. There was a busted old limo in the back, a brick and stone facade, and of course no windows to speak of. I mean, you could practically smell the cigarette smoke and hear Leonard Skinner just looking at the place. And it may have been a relic to the disco era, but it allowed for us to put eyes on the exact location that Teresa was last seen in. Here is the lead investigator on Teresa's case, Kelly Henderson. Several witnesses that were patrons or and or employees of the Matador said that they saw her on the night of the 20s. A lot of discrepancies between the times, you know, some say it was 8 p.m. Some say it was 10 p.m. But sometime between, I would say 8 and 11, she was seen at the Matador Club. On the night of the 20s. There was another warning sign to suggest Deborah and Teresa's cases weren't connected, though this one just adds a complicated layer. And that's because it factors in an entirely new person. Six months after Teresa's murder, on May 3rd, 1974, a 15-year-old girl accepted a ride from a stranger in the same area, about 12 miles from where Teresa was found. She described the driver as a black man, 40 to 50 years old, driving a dark colored full-size car. Now she went on to say that the stranger solicited her for sex and so she tried to get out of the car. She described jumping from the vehicle and being shot in the butt as the shooter fled. Now, the bullet exited through her thigh, but ended up being located and analyzed after the girl was able to get help and report her attack. She survived. And here's the wild part. The analysis of the bullet determined that it was fired from the same gun that killed Teresa Ducic. They never found the actual weapon or the shooter. Though there was a guy that they arrested and released. It was like this whole mix-up and he really is not connected. But even with that misstep, the facts of the case remained. Those are a match for sure and they were re-examined more recently and are confirmed to be a match to be fired from the same weapon. If you listened to our episode on Deborah S.B., as recently as 2024, the question was still being raised as to whether all of these cases were connected. Deborah and Teresa, Teresa and this other young woman, but with one link broken, it's all being called into question now. Though this theory about how the 15-year-old might be connected or not has persisted for a long time. My gut is it was a firearm that the male, it's one that he acquired after Teresa's, is my gut feeling. I don't believe that he's the one that committed the murder on Teresa. But I do believe that we definitely need to further investigate that in a reverse way to be able to track down and add it prior to him. So starting over in Teresa Ducic's case meant truly going back to the beginning because maybe the truth of what happened to her lies somewhere in the evidence and old reports and the names that still stand out in some of them. Hi everyone, Ashley here with some exciting news. The deck will not only land right here in your feed for you to listen to every week, but now we are also on camera for you to watch on YouTube. Now you can see the cards, the case files, and the people behind the coldest cases as I share these stories with you. So no matter where you get your podcasts, whether you prefer to listen to watch or maybe both, I will be there with stories you need to hear. Join me for the deck on YouTube. Subscribe to AudioChuck Investigates on YouTube today. The case file is full of the usual suspects. People like Teresa's ex-boyfriend, Ernest Wayne Grover. The two of them were known to have a pretty diabolical relationship and he admitted to seeing her the day before she went missing. But investigator Henderson could see that they had ruled him out fairly quickly. They did a consensual search of his residence where they took evidence. They did a consensual search of his vehicle where they took evidence. And then once a lot of that came back, he did take a polygraph, he did pass the polygraph. Henderson could also tell from old case files that police back in the first few days and weeks of the investigation ruled out another man, a neighbor named Richard McMahon. It seemed like they just briefly looked at him because he had taken a walk with Teresa on the evening of the 20th, the day she was last seen. But it was before she was seen at the Matador Club, so there was nothing really interesting there. What was interesting was a report from a good friend of Teresa's who told police that on November 9th, this is about 12 days before Teresa was found. She had taken a drive with a guy named Harvey Dwayne Carneley. She said that he told her he wanted to quote, show her a pretty spot. So this Harvey guy drove her out toward the Rocky Bayou Golf Course and down a dirt road in part. Now nothing wild happened, but when Teresa's friend later learned that this was in the exact same area where Teresa was found dead, that whole drive took on new meaning to her. Now back in the 70s, police did talk to Harvey. According to reports, he stated that he last saw Teresa at none other than the Matador on November 18th, and that she had been with a young white guy that he didn't know who had long black hair and a black mustache. Now even before Dennis Murphy had been ruled out, investigator Henderson and one of her colleagues had actually interviewed Harvey in 2019, just to make sure they were checking all their boxes. She said all those years later, he seemed pretty shifty. First stating that Teresa was a good friend, but then later saying that he only ever talked to her one time. He also said they went to school together and that he had no idea who would kill her. He had actually agreed to take a polygraph. However, he passed away three days after the interview and before he could take a polygraph. Yeah, he had medical issues, but by no means was he expected to pass away. So I wanted to research that a little bit more as well. You know, that we, in law enforcement comes and talks to you about a 40-year-old cold case and then three days later you're dead. That's a little strange. Strange? Yes, but a literal dead end. Not impossible to run down, but it was going to be hard. Plus, you know, Dennis. So investigator Henderson put Harvey's name on a short list of people to look further into should there be a change in direction in the case. But his name came below someone else's. A man who came up consistently throughout the police reports. Someone who will call Bobby. Bobby actually put himself on police's radar when he straight up approached a sergeant at the Val-P shortly after Teresa was found. Police records note that he walked up cold and asked if police found who killed the S. Speakehral. After they said no, Bobby stated quote, I guess you know that I killed her. Unquote. It was unclear in these reports if he was talking about Deborah or Teresa, but the report did say that Bobby was later interviewed at Fort Benning in Columbus, Georgia and admitted making statements about killing Teresa and Deborah. Bobby's statements continued to be all over the place. He admitted to St. Teresa at 8 p.m. on the night she was murdered and he said he picked her up while hitchhiking, but then later denied seeing her at all. Now back in 73, they searched his car and gave him a polygraph. Both came back looking sus. When he failed the polygraph and police found blood in his car, but the blood ended up being from an animal when they tested it. So they circled back to him again in 2021. Bobby was still alive, but he wasn't admitting to anything anymore. And he also had a new story. Back in the day, he claimed that he was hanging out with his brother. Now he said that he was in the army at the time of Teresa's murder. Couldn't have done it. Except that wasn't true. I mean it was partly true, he was in the army in 1973, but Bobby was actually on leave during the time of Teresa's murder. When confronted with this, he said that he was out hunting with his brother at the time. Investigator Henderson says that they have not been able to corroborate this, but she suspects that he wasn't actually hunting. So they continued to dig into him in 2021 by talking to Bobby's stepson, who told investigators four key things. One, he told police that Bobby was violent. Two, Bobby had taught his family a nifty little trick. If you ever need to avoid detection of human blood, just put animal blood over it. Three, Bobby had an uncle who lived about 30 miles from where Teresa's body was found. And that uncle had the initials, R.A. and four. He told investigator Henderson and her colleague that Bobby had a black friend from the military who could have been involved in the shooting of a 15 year old girl that escaped. The stepson said that this guy's name was Crowley. Is that maybe a friend that Bobby could have offloaded a gun to? I mean this would play right into Henderson's theory, but even after hearing this in 2021, they still had those Dennis Murphy did it blinders on. So they didn't even try to track this Crowley fellow down. And while police had interviewed that 15 year old woman a few times right after she was shot, that was all. In fact, as far as Henderson knows, there has been no contact with that young woman by anyone in the department since May of 1974, which to me seems huge like she is still alive and could potentially provide the answers to so many questions. All of this is about to change. Blinders are off and with Bobby looking like a promising suspect, this woman might be their key to solving Teresa's case. Henderson is in the process of reaching out to speak with her. But there is one more possible suspect that she's running down to. Someone who has always been treated as a witness, not a suspect, until now. The spinal lead has investigator Henderson going all the way back to the beginning of Teresa's case, back to the man who found her body and reported it to authorities. I'm going to call him Jay because he's a person of interest. It turns out there was a little bit more going on before he called law enforcement with the discovery of Teresa's remains. He had actually skipped out on work that day to play golf with a friend of his who was a judge and the judge's son. He said that he found Teresa when he was on his way to the course, just driving by the nearby wooded area to get to the golf course. But get this, he didn't actually call police right away when he saw Teresa. Instead, he went to the golf club and corralled the two other men to come take a look at what he'd found. It wasn't until then that the police were radioed in. And really, there's nothing egregious about this. But what was odd was that in 1973, Jay said that he didn't know Teresa. Then, a year or two later, his story changed. Investigator Henderson says that another reason she plans to speak with Jay is because he declined to take a polygraph on more than one occasion. And that, she said to our reporter Annie Rodrick Jones, struck her as odd. You know, if all you did was find the body, then why not do the polygraph and just roll yourself out? So I want to dig into that a little bit more, especially since he was so adamant that he didn't know her. And then, you know, a year or two later, he's inventing that yaggy newer, that they would go out and do things as a group. He didn't ever claim that he was had one-on-one relationship or one-on-one contact, but that he certainly knew who she was and had been around her in the past, which is just quite opposite of what he said when he first found her. Yeah, that, that to me seems a little suspicious. Very suspicious, yeah. Okay, so that's someone else you want to look into. Absolutely. And there's one more thing that is suspicious about this guy. We know that Teresa's cause of death was the gunshot wound, but there was also additional head trauma. And that detail mattered because of what Jay had been doing earlier that day. So there was blunt force trauma on the back of her head that appears to be from a round object that was like a flat surface that didn't have any type of pattern on the wound to indicate like, you know, I could maybe the end of a golf club. Penderson believes that in order to solve this case, she can't have tunnel vision on one suspect, like what happened with Dennis Murphy. So she's striving to give equal attention to all leads. And she's prepared for any and all surprises, like the one that got thrown her way in 2022. Hi everyone, Ashley here with some exciting news. The deck will not only land right here in your feed for you to listen to every week, but now we are also on camera for you to watch on YouTube. Now you can see the cards, the case files, and the people behind the coldest cases as I share these stories with you. So no matter where you get your podcasts, whether you prefer to listen to watch or maybe both, I will be there with stories you need to hear. Join me for the deck on YouTube. Subscribe to AudioChuck Investigates on YouTube today. One of the first things investigator Henderson did back in 2021 was retest a piece of promising old evidence, fingernail scrapings that had been taken during Teresa's autopsy. And they actually got a profile back that was good enough for Kodas. And by January 31st of 2022, they got a hit. Individuals got in trouble and his DNA got put into Kodas and then the female DNA, that was under Teresa's fingernails, came back as a relative to that male, the last name Dunbart. So we had a list of 17 females possible to be linked to that DNA. So we, with me and then agencies, according to where they were living at the time, would go make contact with those females. This was the first that Henderson heard of the Dunbar surname. And she made contact with all 17 of the women. And as far as she can tell, they don't connect to anyone she's looking at. Our reporter Annie asked investigator Henderson how she made sense of that evidence. So could this tell you like, one, do you start looking for females or two, do you think like she got an argument? Like, what does this tell you? She was hotheaded, a little scrappy. So my, my initial guess is that she was probably involved in some type of altercations and other female. I'm not going to completely rule out that a female is not responsible, but it's not, to me, it's more likely that a male is responsible for the actual murder of her, especially not then, the agency's agency as much back then with females. So you had to look and take into consideration that it could be very well could be a female suspect and don't rule that out, but my, my guess and my most is to find the female who maybe had an altercation with her a day or two prior. Yeah. And were there any female people of interest in this? Ever? No, I mean, they talked to them, you know, if they last saw her or like the waitress at the mad door, but, um, let's take for right that information. It appears that they just, they get moving on to other nails. Henderson is in the process of reaching out to Bobby again, along with that uncle whose initials are R.A. She's also trying to make contact with Jay, who's been interviewed three times, but here's the kicker. The last time was in March of 1974. Jay and Bobby are still alive, and while she already has a DNA sample from Bobby, and so far, there are no links to Teresa on some of the items tested, she still needs to get a sample from Jay. So that's what's next. Well, that and retesting more evidence in Teresa's case, stuff that got a look back in 2007, but hasn't gotten any more testing since. In 2007, it was reexamined, um, and there is DNA, but we haven't been able to positively identify that DNA. However, it has not been reexamined again. So I do believe with technology now, we can reexamine it and possibly get a much better conclusion. Lin May, and possibly link to somebody. Her request to retest the portable record player, the coat, underwear, cigarettes, coke bottle, and fingernail scrapings are awaiting approval from the state lab now. When cases from 1973 land on my desk, I know there's going to be a challenge. A lot of people folded into this story are no longer with us, and sometimes people like Teresa, someone who wasn't anchored to a daily routine that would trigger fast alarms when she left home, get lost in paperwork. But none of that makes her case less solvable or less urgent, and investigator Kelly Henderson knows that. It doesn't matter that this case is over 50 years old. Henderson is chasing down leads as if it happened yesterday. She's updating old police reports, creating timelines and sending off samples for DNA testing. Just like she did for Deborah's case, which 52 years later, she was able to close the books on. So if there's something that we learned from Deborah's case, it's that your tips matter. Here's our reporter Annie speaking with Nicole, the Crime Stoppers coordinator. Have you received tips from the deck episodes? We have. I believe we've done four or five cases with the deck, and we've gotten numerous tips following the release of each of those episodes, and some were very valuable to us. Listening to these episodes not only helps bring in tips, but investigator Henderson says that it pushes them to devote more effort to old cases. I'm curious, because I know oftentimes these cases that we cover are so old, and I know you have a lot of cold cases, and you also have regular cases. But I'm curious, does this ever us reaching out to you? Does it ever kind of not force you, but it's like, which one do you pick out of the pile? If you don't have family calling you, does it force you to pick these things out and tear them apart again? It puts the spark back in. Let's see what we can make on this, and then get justice for the deck of, and a little bit closer for the living family, but yeah, it certainly lights that fire again. And when it comes to Teresa's case, Nicole says this. So anyone who may have any information about Teresa Ducic's murder can contact Emerald Coast Crime Stoppers. You'll be a 100% anonymous. We give you three simple and secure ways to do so. You can contact us at 863 tips, 24 hours a day. Of course, you can go to our website Emerald Coast Crime Stoppers.com and submit a web tip, or the most popular way everybody has submitting tips nowadays, and that is the P3 tips mobile application, which you can find in your app store. All three are 100% anonymous, and you may even get a cash reward. The deck is an audio chuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis, and to learn more about the deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. I think Chuck would approve. Hi everyone, Ashley Flowers here. If you're like me, diving into True Crime is about more than just the details of a case. It is also about giving a voice to the victims and understanding the lives behind the headlines. And this is what host Kylie Lo does each week on her podcast Dark Down East. Every Thursday, Kylie dives into New England's most gripping mysteries, uncovering stories in a way you won't hear anywhere else. And she digs through archives, connects with families, and shines a light on the voices that deserve to be heard. From cold cases to moments of long-awaited justice, Dark Down East is the perfect blend of investigations and honoring the stories behind them. You can find Dark Down East now wherever you're listening.
