Listener Strikes Gold w/‘The Travel Companion’ from Travis Wood & Alex Mallis - Just Shoot It 520

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Welcome to the 520th episode of Just Shoot It, a podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by patrons Andrew Gibbs and Nick Lane. I'm Matt Enlow.

1:36

And I'm Warren Kaplan. And today we have the filmmakers Alex Malice and Travis Wood on the podcast. They've made a movie called the Travel Companion.

1:45

I saw it.

1:52

It's really great. You should watch it. But what's even more great is how we know Travis, which is. He emailed me almost in 2018. How many years ago was that? Almost eight years ago to ask me for some advice about directing. He was a podcast listener. I gave him some advice. And then flash forward eight years later, he's got a movie premiering in Tribeca, distributed by Oscilloscope, and he's here to talk about it on the podcast. And I think I can only take all the credit for it.

1:52

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

2:18

I think he did have a Vimeo staff pick beforehand and he was doing some things.

2:19

But you know what's funny is after we had our conversation off Mike, we were talking and Travis made a short film that I really love called Affirmative Action for like F U R Like a Dog that I didn't realize was his movie. And I think about all the time because it's kind of like a screen capture movie, but essentially it's just a montage of that. I could be misremembering it, but, like, the point is it shows like ad the creative companies and ad agencies and on their team or About Us page. You'll see like, you know, oh, creative director, da da, da, da da. And then office Dog. And how it was more often that there was a dog on the About Us or teen page than a person of color. It was like six white people and Shar Pei was almost always what it was.

2:23

Yeah, that does seem accurate from the About Me pages. I've seen Rough. No, they're really talented. Travis, he's. He's a very modest person, would you agree? I feel like he doesn't lead with all of his accolades, but he has a lot of them. He just moderated a panel at no Budge, which seemed like it was something you were familiar with. So, yeah, pretty impressive guys. Definitely strong filmmakers. And they came on to talk about how they raised the money, how they came up with the idea, which is like a great way to come up with an idea for a film, why they made it. I, I was just, I really enjoyed talking to them, and I felt like there was a little bit of a Matt and low, like gears spitting thing when they were talking about financing independent film. Because you're in the middle of it yourself.

3:14

Sure, sure.

3:59

True.

3:59

And you, you're asking, you asked them a question about the profiles of their investors, which sounds like a question from somebody that is thinking about the profiles.

4:00

Thinking about it though, though. Yes. Certainly there's a selfish angle to it, but I think they're. When you're asking someone to invest in independent film at $150,000 without name talent, that's a very different value proposition than if you're trying to raise a $5 million film with name talent, for instance, you know, we could quibble about the likelihood of who gets their Money back first. But the ultimate takeaway is, like, trying to give it. Like, is this friends and family? Are these strangers? Like, how, how do you put a film together where the goals are, you know, really clear but modest? Right. Like, when we talked about this in our conversation, they hit the mark. They premiered at Tribeca, right? No, pardon me. No, they premiere Tiff.

4:08

No, no, Tribeca.

5:00

Tiff.

5:01

Or was it Tribeca? So, yeah, so they premiere Tribeca. They get distribution from a real company. They have a theatrical run. They're on a roadshow right now. They did it. They did the thing. And that's not without perils or hardship. And so I think it was just a really pure conversation and pure experience for them. So we talk a lot about the ways in which they kind of carved their own path and the reasons why they did it and how they maintained a level of joy and artistry that's really admirable and fun. I really love this conversation.

5:01

Yeah. I mean, I do think, like, just listening to you talk about this, it seems like the $150,000 film, the investors are people that are investing in art in them.

5:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Patronage people.

5:49

Yeah. And the five million dollar film with the name are the people that are investing in a business or like commerce. And not that the 5 million dollar film is an artsy. Not that the $150,000 film isn't commercial or business oriented, but in terms of the goals of the investment. Yeah, they're probably a little different. Like you, like in the terms you put it, the profile of those investors are probably different.

5:51

Yeah. And that's kind of. I was, It's a little bit of a leading question in so much as I'm trying to illustrate who cares about what types of films.

6:14

Yeah, yeah, no, it's good, It's a good thing to talk about. Anything else you want to chat about before we get into the interview?

6:24

Boy, so much, but we had such a long conversation. I think we should hold our ketchup for, for a later day, Right?

6:31

Yep. Just like my burger, everything but hold the ketchup, you know, hold the ketchup anyway.

6:36

Ketchup. You don't see ketchup on a burger much anymore. A lot of special sauce. Special sauce.

6:41

You know, I, I, I believe you're. Yeah, I do believe you're right. But because I happen to order more kin hamburgers than the average. Oh. Person.

6:46

Like, my kid loves special sauce.

6:55

Yeah. We always get, like, just, you know, pickles and, and ketchup for my son. My daughter's a little More adventurous.

6:57

Yeah.

7:05

Anyhow, let's get into it with Travis and Alex Trellix, as I call them. I guess I feel like it's kind of cool. I was telling my wife about it before we started recording. I'm like, we're having this filmmaker on that emailed me, like, years ago, like right when he moved to la. And now he just emailed me again and he had a movie at Tribeca. And when I say he, I mean he and Alex Malice, man of the hour.

7:05

Yeah. Alex, this is your entire apartment is what we can see right here.

7:27

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

7:30

This is the New York lifestyle.

7:31

It's the biggest apartment in New York.

7:33

Yeah. Yeah.

7:34

Okay, cool. So, Travis, you do have the email?

7:35

Yeah, I got it here.

7:37

I don't know why you just emailed me instead of emailing the show.

7:38

Well, because I'm. I'm. I don't respond to emails.

7:41

Yeah, Matt doesn't have email yet.

7:44

Yeah, he's working on it. I should get it eventually, but.

7:46

So do you have any insight, Travis, on why you emailed me and not Matt?

7:49

I don't know.

7:52

Why.

7:53

I think maybe you had just said something about meeting up with someone. Or maybe, you know, maybe I was faster to find your email.

7:53

Yeah, I'm more available. Matt's elusive and mysterious. My reps actually think I'm too available and not mysterious enough. Anyhow, Travis, do you mind reading the email that you sent me?

7:59

Yes. Okay, so. October 13, 2018.

8:10

Seven and a half years.

8:13

Hello, my name is Travis. I'm a filmmaker from Minneapolis. Lived in NYC the past two years that just made the move over to Los Angeles. I've been listening to the podcast for a while and it definitely planted the LA seed. Do you have any tips on finding initial directing gigs? I've been consistently making shorts that have been semi successful at festivals and online, but not sure how to bridge that into a directing career. I know you guys covered getting started on sets, but after freelancing a couple years in various roles, it didn't seem like it was leading towards directing. I remember you saying you frequent the same Starbucks. If you have any time coming up, I'd love to pop in and introduce myself. If not, I'll catch you at the next live show. My work can be seen@elstrib.com I look forward to hearing from you, Travis.

8:14

What do you think, Matt? What's your rating on the like, Thirstiness versus generosity. Matt has a lot of thoughts about, like, when you email someone to meet up, how much you should. How you should do it well.

8:52

I know. I think that was great. I think also, you know, this is pre pandemic. This is much earlier in the show, and I think that was a perfect email. Right?

9:04

Like, that was a really good email. Yeah.

9:14

Yeah, I don't think that there was, like, any. It was very casual, like, hey, I'd love to swing by if you're already available. Like, I'd like to meet you. That. This is fun, but, like, you had very specific questions that weren't just always answered in the podcast. I think the thing that can be a little annoying when it's. It's like stuff that we cover on the podcast all the time, and then clearly, maybe someone's not listening or. Or doesn't care to listen, which is totally valid. But then don't. Don't email me. You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of the main thing, you know?

9:16

Yeah, it's a pretty good email. I feel like you moved. You know, you kind of also offered, like, hey, I'll come see the place that you hang out at, or I'll just go to your next event. So I feel like. I feel like it's good.

9:48

Yeah. Great.

9:58

Alex, are you born yet? You're born by this analysis?

9:58

No, I'm actually, like, I had. I got to admit, I hadn't, like, cc'd on this, but I didn't see the quote thread, and I'm honestly just, like, it just, like, I'm proud of my man Travis. Like, it just confirms, like, what I know about this man and, like, why our collaboration has been so strong. Because, like, even back then. Was that six years ago, like, juice.

10:01

He's got the juice.

10:20

Yeah. Yeah.

10:22

Moving to LA is like, you from New York as a filmmaker is probably. You have the juice. But wait, you're in New York now? I guess we're gonna. We'll get to this part later. Yeah. Move back. Yeah, I. I have a theory on why, but we'll find out in a second. But I. So I responded to Travis. What would a normal podcast host do is write back and say, like, hey, maybe if you wanna meet me on Thursday, that's fine. Otherwise, good luck. There's no answer to how to get directing gigs. That's like, what every filmmaker in the world wants to know is how to get a directing gig, and nobody knows how to do it. Instead, I wrote this very long essay. It goes something like this. Travis, thanks for writing and listening to the podcast, and congrats on your move to la. I checked out your website. There's A ton of great stuff there. And it's awesome that you have a Vimeo staff pick, which by the way, that is like a huge.

10:23

It's still awesome.

11:05

It's a huge like accolade to make me be like, oh, you're serious about filming.

11:06

Yeah.

11:10

And you went to a ton of festivals. But that said, I'm not sure exactly what kind of work your website is setting you up to get. Commercial, branded content, web series, documentary, tv, stop motion. Because the thing is, I feel like a lot of people that are saying they want to get directing work, like you're not going to get a feature or no one's going to pay you to direct a short film or a TV show, right?

11:11

Yeah, that is true. Though in 2018, as a little caveat, I think everyone's websites looked a little more scattered and it's because you wouldn't get picked to like maybe do a feature, but like you definitely could get paid to like shoot a funny video for college humor or Funny or Die. That maybe could be branded content or maybe it's a commercial or, you know, maybe you're working for Conde Nast. There were those kind of publishers that were hiring people like to day play basically and fill in.

11:29

And.

11:59

And so I think people's websites tended to be a little more eclectic because there were more eclectic opportunities basically.

11:59

And it was still kind of the era of like, I can do anything, please hire me.

12:06

Yeah, this is like a post buzzfeed but pre pandemic world, right?

12:10

Yeah. So then I gave my theory on working on sets. You mentioned you've been in New York City for the past two years and working on sets hasn't led anywhere. Pretty cynical. But it sounds like you haven't actually been doing that in la. Right. The idea behind working on sets in my mind is that you meet a ton of people in LA doing the same things as you. You meet some actors that are putting together a pitch video and they need help shooting it, or you meet a camera assistant that owns an Alexa package and wants to be a dp. Or you meet cool people that invite you to networking events. So I think that that's something you should definitely keep doing. Which that's how I got into film, like into la. Filmmaking too, is just dolly gripping, boom hopping. And I did all sorts of random things and even DPing like here and there. Um, and at the same time, I think you gotta make your own stuff. At the very least writing or pitching so then you can show your work, which obviously you were already doing when I Told you this, but I kind of talked about my first paid gig was through my aunt, you know, who just gave me $2,000 to shoot a commercial for a company and that some girl I dated, like, let me direct a web show for her that she got a deal on. And so I said, you have really funny stuff, but I think you can keep refining and making things and upping up the rhythm, the pacing, the performance of production value to get to a place where you get directing, paid directing gigs and do all that other stuff that we talk about on the podcast, like go to UCB shows, which was like, Matt's, like, number one piece of advice back then that was more to

12:15

make friends than to.

13:28

Than to book to meet la honestly.

13:29

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

13:32

Hook up with comedy actors and writers and make stuff with them that probably came off of, like, Sam Ziegleman, who made PEN15, you know, with two actors and he met at UCB and maybe they might know some celebrity that'll help improve your reel, which is what happened to me. Like, I worked with these guys at UCB and they're like, oh, Dex Shepard is coming. Like, let's shoot a scene with him. And then I was like, you can also try getting a job at a production company and bugging them until they let you direct something. It's a hustle, man. For me, I'm not available for a while, so I won't be at my favorite Starbucks. But I'll be back in November. Feel free to ask me anything or run ideas over email, though. Happy to share any advice I have. I'm going to take this all with a grain of salt. Anyhow, that's. That was eight years ago. And then I think we can kind of fast forward to the email that you sent me, unfortunately.

13:34

How many emails did you guys trade between then and. And this next email that you're about to read?

14:16

Zero.

14:22

Just zero. Just one more. Travis wrote back and said thanks for getting back to me. Great info. Have an awesome time in London. I think I was going. Yeah, I guess I was on my way to London. I guess I. Maybe. I don't know why, but yeah, so. So you wrote me on February 21st. You have that email, Travis?

14:22

Yep.

14:38

Okay, hit it.

14:38

Seven years. Hey, Oren. Seven years later and I'm still listening, rereading this chain. Thanks again for such a thoughtful response. I made my first feature film this year, the Travel Companion, which premiered at Tribeca and was acquired by Oscilloscope Film was made for 150k and really embodied a Just shoot it mentality. My co writer slash co director Alex and I are starting some outreach ahead of our theatrical run and would love to be on the show. If you and Matt see it a fit.

14:40

And then you send a synopsis of the movie and the trailer.

15:03

Yep.

15:06

Which is a trailer again. I watch it. I was like, okay, yeah, this trailer looks pretty good. And then. Yeah, then we booked it. We booked you. So I don't know.

15:06

There's one thing that you should actually throw into this thread that I'm noticing, and I feel like it's something that maybe Travis and I will touch on at some point is the. There's one email in between his recent one. And when you're like, yeah, come on. And it's the. It's the two word email that has. That has, like, really helped us out, which is just following up.

15:15

Oh, yes. Oh, Because I am now realizing that I. So this is what I do a lot. I don't know if this is giving away too much private info, but when we get pitched an interesting pitch, I will usually forward it to Matt and say, hey, this looks interesting.

15:35

Yeah. One of us will weigh in and be like, hey, like, I think this could be cool for some reason. Right. And if neither of us forwards it,

15:51

then it just disappears. Yeah, yeah. So I forwarded it to Matt and I was like, like, this is. This is a. This is a fun email. Like, look at the chain. This is someone that's been listening forever. And like Matt said, we have so many people that lie to us and tell us that they love the podcast, but they don't have, like, the receipts like this. They gotta have the receipts.

15:58

Yeah, yeah.

16:13

And so then Matt wrote back. He's like, oh, yeah, let's have. Let's have him on. We can read the email on the podcast. And then. And then I did do anything for a week. And then, yeah, you did send that email following up, which is like, you know what's crazy? Like, I get not. This is not at all specific to you, but in general, I get pretty annoyed by the following up emails. However, they are effective.

16:14

They work. They work.

16:36

They work. Yeah. I do reconsider things.

16:38

Sometimes you do need to just hear no, right? And sometimes it's like, oh, it just kind of got buried in your inbox. And you did want to say, hey, yeah, guys, hop on, hop on. Right. I'm curious. Travis and Alex, do you guys have a method for following up?

16:41

Yeah, I think we just follow up until we hear back. Like a pretty firm no. So that's like, the whole strategy of the film, I think, is just sending an email and checking in once a week.

16:56

And do you just, like. Is it like a timer? You just, like, boomerang it until it comes back into your inbox a week later or. I'm all about email management. That should. That's the other topic of this show.

17:06

Yes. Like, I think it's a little bit freestyle. Like, we were kind of, you know, having a beer the other day and talking about using, like, search filters, you know, like from me with subject line. And then you just go through and you can kind of. And like a keyword, like in our case, bam. Which is the place. The screening house that we're opening in New York. And then you can just quickly see from emails from you that have no additional correspondence. And then you just go one by one.

17:16

Oh, I'm so glad I asked this nerdy question. That's so good. That's excellent.

17:42

So do you have, like, Terry Gross and everyone on there? Like, are you just emailing any of your filmmakers?

17:48

I mean, we, like. There's a radio station in New York, wnyc, which is the NPR affiliate in New York City. And we just emailed them and followed up a couple times, and then they responded, and it's looking like we're gonna. We're gonna have some luck there. So it's.

17:55

That's what I'm talking about.

18:10

That's hammering. It's crazy.

18:10

That's incredible.

18:12

Sorry.

18:13

Not to make this an email podcast, but how many times did you follow up with wnyc?

18:13

Just two. But that's like. Like two is the average. But been some. There's been some emails. Probably the most. The most emails that has, like, resulted in something is. There's a small part in the film that we originally wanted to. We had. We were excited about casting this professional skateboarder. He's kind of like an OG skateboarder. And not quite. Yeah, this guy is in Marc Gonzalez. And track down, like, his. His manager. I forget how, but we, you know, figured out, okay, this is. This is probably a good shot. I sent him an email. I followed up, I think five times. Like five times. Just like, hey, following up. Would love to chat. Like, hey, Just like, still down to talk. Like, hey, following. I wrote him five.

18:18

No response each time. No, right?

18:56

No. You can see on my Gmail, it's like. It's almost comical. And then on the sixth time, you know, he writes back and he's like, hey, so sorry. You know, so apologetic. Like, so sorry. Like, I've been busy, whatever. Like, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna, like, give you the answer you're looking for, which was a positive one. And then he's like, also, I just want to say, like, I really admire your hustle. Like, I can tell you, you're the kind of person who gets shit done and doesn't just talk. It was like, oh, okay, yes. Like, it's just so validating. I feel like we've been talking about this a lot lately, that people have this image, like peers of mine, you know, even myself. In moments, you have this image of sending an email and it being received on a silver platter by somebody who was well rested and well fed and has been awaiting your email all day. And this is like, finally your emails arrived and that's just not the case. Like, it's just gone immediately in the onslaught of emails. And it's actually like an attention gain. You just have to, like, kind of poke and I. To this day, and hopefully this will. This record will continue. I've not gotten somebody that has written back and said, like, hey, cut it out. You're driving me nuts. You know, they're always like, I'm so sorry. Like, okay, here's the answer you want. Generally, it's positive, occasionally negative, but, like, they always respond. And like, that's.

18:57

That's what you get.

20:06

I love this. I love this so much. And I'll. I'll also. Because I'm really in that zone right now as well. I'm fundraising for a film. And so, like, you know, I'm doing a lot of outreach, and I have gotten a couple instances where people have been like, hey, I don't want to be like, stop emailing me. And that's it. And, you know, it's. It's like, not that big a deal. Do you know what I mean? Like, even when they're like, a little snarky, it's like, okay, it's over.

20:06

Next.

20:29

You know what I mean? And it feels bad for. It does feel bad for about 15 seconds. And then you just, you know, like, maybe even for a full day. But I'm struggling to think now. There were a couple where, like, I had accidentally double emailed someone and they were like, hey, I said to take me off the list. This is really rude, or something to that effect. And I felt really, really bad about it. And I could not for the life of me tell you the name or who that person was at all. Do you know what I mean?

20:30

Like, that was me.

20:56

Yeah, it was Oren Yeah.

20:57

Well, so let's talk about Travel Companion. Is it both of your guys? First feature?

20:59

Yep.

21:04

Debut.

21:04

Debut feature. Co direction here and then.

21:05

And can you guys give us the log one? Because you kind of did the cardinal sin with the subject matter here.

21:07

All right, I got it pulled up. The Travel Companion follows Simon, a struggling documentary filmmaker who enjoys free flights courtesy of his best friend and roommate, Bruce, who works for an airline. However, when Beatrice, a more successful filmmaker, enters the picture and starts dating Bruce, Simon risks flying too close to the sun.

21:12

Nice Icarus story. Yeah. So you did that thing where it's a movie about something, you know, which is being a filmmaker in New York. And nine out of 10 times, I feel like that's kind of dangerous. You are flying a little close to the sun.

21:29

Hold on, hold on. I. I think everyone says, like, write what you know.

21:43

It's not the writing what you know

21:46

part, it's the filmmaker part. Yeah, sure.

21:48

Making a movie about a filmmaker.

21:49

Yeah.

21:51

Because it's just that you have to kind of nail it because it's just something that many filmmakers have done, Right.

21:52

Yeah. I think maybe the other trick is, like, it's hard for people to relate, but if you're specific, then I think it always works out. You know what I mean? Like, I've never been attacked by a shark, and Jaws still works, you know?

21:58

Yeah. But I think. I guess I'm curious about the strategy behind this being your guys's first film, because it's done really well at festivals. It's got picked up by Oscilloscope, it's getting distribution, but really, I think when you make a movie like this, it's kind of. You're making it a little bit more for the festivals, for the other filmmakers, for people that understand filmmaking or.

22:12

Let's see what these guys have to say. Let's not put some words in their mouths. Well, yeah. What was the strategy behind. Behind the subject matter?

22:37

You know, we were at a festival, like, with a short that we had made, and I was like, so I had these Travel companion benefits, and at the time, my buddy, a girlfriend, and I was like, knew it was coming to a close. And I was telling Alex, like, oh, man, dude. I'm like, not gonna be able to have these flight benefits anymore. This is gonna suck. And he was like, that's just, like, so funny. We should make that into a movie. And we were at a festival, so it was just like. We just started writing right there. Like, we had just been at a Q and A, and we were like, that'd be such a funny way to start this movie.

22:43

That's really funny. But what was there to Oren's previous point, once you got past the romance of, like, oh, this is a good idea for a movie? There's that second hurdle of not just like, oh, this is a good idea, because I think everybody has lots of good ideas, but the decision to make it oftentimes comes with that layer of, like, well, why should we make this? Why this one and not the other six ideas you guys had at the bar afterwards or whatever?

23:09

You know, I mean, I can say that, like, we have both been making shorts for a while. And I guess speaking personally, like, I've always experienced this kind of, like, chasm between short and feature where, like, shorts feel so free of pressure, or they can feel so much less pressure that they have to live up to a certain standard, that they have to be perfect, that they have to say something important. And often shorts do, and they can, but, like, it just feels so much lighter. And with a feature, it's just like, you know, it almost like, the longer you make shorts, the more pressure you have on yourself. Like, okay, this is my big debut. This has to be like, my, you know, entrance where I say something. And I think we kind of quickly realized that we. We weren't interested in that. We were. It's actually just, like, interested in making something. And so it felt kind of easy to take this idea. And almost, like, in the absurdity of it, the kind of, like, levity of it, the almost randomness, like, he's just telling me a story on the side of the road as we're walking down the sidewalk, and we're like, let's just make that new a feature. Like, let's just. It just feels good. Like, it. Let's just move forward, all this energy that, like, in the moment and stay very present and just, like, not let anything stop us. And I think that's something that we just, like, latched onto almost in an unspoken way. And eventually we talked about it as well. Just, like, nothing will stop us and nothing, including the pressure to make something, you know, deeply profound or, like, the next Great American Work or the next, you know, the next Tarantino, whatever. It was just like, that's not our. That's not our approach. Like, let's. Let's prioritize some different things. Like, having a lot of fun, feeling good, you know, finishing something, taking some big swings, experimenting. Like, this was kind of like our approach. Of course we wanted to make something really good, and I think we did. But like, that kind of came as a result of this mindset of, like, don't let anything stop you.

23:36

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26:18

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26:27

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.

26:31

That's right.

26:40

Hey.

26:40

Hey.

26:41

So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

26:41

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

26:45

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27:00

And I like that you the things that you didn't list is like, let's shoot. Let's write a story that takes place in, like, locations we already know, right? Like that we already have the resources. Like a character whose dynamics we can, you know, loosely based on people that are in our brain already. So it just. Yeah, I love that.

27:32

I'm curious, actually, before we move on, you made the point of like, oh, let's not prioritize or let's not obsess over the things you just mentioned. Pressure. The pressure. Let's make sure that it stays pure and fun. What were the things you feel like you actively did that made it fun or kept it pure or kept it light? You know, were there the things that you specifically did to make that worked?

27:51

You know, I think, like, there's always kind of this. Like, I. I feel like there was times where we were like, oh, we got to get this to a production company, we got to get this to an agent, we got to get this to a manager. Like, we gotta try and follow some path. And then I feel like we just kept with like, regrounding each other. Like, you know, like, we're shoot this no matter what. Like, at one point we were like, we can be the lead actors. We can use a mini DV cam. Like, we can just make this super lo fi. So, like, I think we always had in our head, like, we're just going to shoot this, like, at all costs. And I think, like, when you kind of have that in the back of your head, it takes away the big pressures to try and make it bigger than it needs to be or try to get that a list cast. Like, it almost just like, kept us in a really fun spot. Cause we're, like, not beholden to like, this invisible person that's gonna come along.

28:17

We're just like, to each other.

29:00

It felt like anytime the project was in our hands, it felt good. And it felt like we were moving in the right direction. And anytime we were like, giving it, you know, giving a decision or like a permission to somebody else, like, we need to get money. We need to hear back. We need to. Anytime that happened, it felt. It didn't feel good anymore. And it felt like, oh. And then it's just like you're sitting around. It's like, what can we do to maintain that feeling? That like, metaphorical feeling of holding the project and having control over, like, everything about it?

29:02

Guys, I love that so much. And speaking from personal experience, I can think of times where sending an email felt like work and felt like, oh, I've passed The ball. And now I'm going to wait for the ball to come back to me. I've emailed the producer the list of talent or we've made an offer to someone, and so I don't have to think about this for a minute, and I can go do the other 15 things that are stressing me out. But it keeps the movie from getting made. If you keep passing the ball, then you're, you know, you're. You lose a bet to Oren two years in a row.

29:32

Yeah, I mean, they talk about. People talk about development hell. And it's. It's like an idea. It's a very real thing. Like, it's. And as soon as we sort of

30:04

felt and kind of literal.

30:13

Yeah. Is that where we're going? Like, no, no, no. We need to go the other direction. That means let's shoot this film for 5K. Oh, we just raised 10K. Okay. Now we're shooting for 10K. Oh, now we have 20K. Now we're shooting it for 20K. Like, and just being. Having, like, scale scalability be an implicit part of the process. Like, as we started to have a script, even when we're writing the script be like, all right, well, I know a guy with a camera shop. All right, well, let's shoot at this apartment. This is the bodega I go to. I bet we could do that. You know, the subway is free. Let's. Let's write those things in. And we didn't, you know, we didn't want to discourage ourselves, but we're like, we're not going to shoot on, you know, a cruise ship or something. Like, we weren't. We weren't like, we were kind of like, maybe lightly discouraging the, like, big production value set pieces in favor of things that we felt like, okay, that does seem plausible.

30:15

Even though it's a movie about a man that gets free flights.

31:03

Yeah. Well, we can tell you about the airports when we get to that section.

31:06

Well, before we get to the airports. Sorry. Just a couple. A couple takeaways from this stuff that I think are really interesting. One is, like, the way you generated that idea and kind of going back to, like, making movies at filmmakers is tough. I do think that it kind of almost seemed like maybe, Travis, you were stressed out about something, and Alex was like, what are you so stressed out about? And you're like, well, I'm going to. I get these free flights, and now I'm going to lose them because the guy that gives them to me is going to give them to his new girlfriend. And so even though the character is a filmmaker, which is highly specific, and maybe people don't know the details of a freelance filmmaker's life, but the idea that you've been getting these free flights, something for free, and now you're going to lose it to your best friend's girlfriend is super relatable.

31:09

It could be, oh, like, my friend's a bartender and now I don't get free drinks. It could be, you know, they own a Laundromat and now I have dirty clothes. Whatever.

31:53

Yeah, well, it just made me think. So I was kind of stressed out this morning, and my wife was like, what's wrong? And I was like, well, I got this, an email this morning that told me it was from Adobe. And they said, hey, it's been nine years. You're not a student anymore. And I'm like, but I still have my Edu email address. And I'm like, am I really going to go from $30 a month to like $80 a month or whatever insane amount of money it is?

32:02

Sure.

32:27

And that was stressing me all day. And. And it just made me realize that you guys found these very relatable stresses in your own life, set them with characters you know, in places that you know. And you made a movie that is like, both highly specific and universal, and you did it at a budget where, worst case scenario, just the people that are also filmmakers will watch it, and that's probably good enough to make your money back and get distribution. But best case scenario, it's, you know, it, like everyone can relate to it and. And it becomes something much bigger. So I don't know. I think those two things are really awesome. I do have one note, though, which is if you threaten to.

32:27

To quit Adobe, they'll give you a discount. Is that what you notice?

33:08

25. No, my. My note is about specific to the Travel Companion. So even though Travis and I emailed years ago, I had no idea what you looked like or what Alex looked like. And when I went to the IMDb page of your movie, the travel companion, there is. Neither one of you guys has a picture on IMDb. I cannot tell the lead name of the lead of your movie. I actually thought maybe the lead was Travis. Under stars is the lead. What's the lead's name?

33:12

It's Tristan Turner.

33:39

Tristan Turner. He's not listed as a star and there's no picture of him on IMDb. So trying to research your movie. You guys are amazing at emails, but once you. I get the email, it's really hard to, like, figure out who you guys are like, and who your lead actor is. So on that note, what you're making

33:40

me feel is it's just reminding me how much I hate IMDb as it was.

33:59

Sure, sure, sure, I know, but unfortunately, it is, like, the main research tool of our industry.

34:03

Yeah. Yes. And also, I don't know about your letterboxd status, but I mentioned I just got back from cinequest and a friend of mine had a premiere there and it took me a long time to find his film on letterboxd. And I know that sounds kind of trivial, but like, those little things of, like, getting things set up or, you know, making sure that they're visible are the ways that people can spread the word about your film. You know what I mean? Like, I like the film. I, you know, give it a little review, and then all of a sudden things kind of go, you know, not viral, but like, they. They grow audiences in those ways. So all of those little things are. It's hard, right, because you guys, you just made a movie and now you have to be social media marketers as well. Right. And look, the festival movie is bad at it too.

34:08

So, you know, yeah, we're horrible, but it's a festival.

34:56

This is the pot calling the kettle black for sure.

34:59

About filmmakers, you should. IMDb is where filmmakers, like, look up movies. So my advice, like, I thought the performances were so good. I thought Tristan was awesome. And the other guy, Anthony, he. He's like, done a lot of other work, right? Yeah. That, like such great performances. And the fact that Tristan doesn't have a picture on IMDb, you guys got to just like, chip in and. And I think this movie.

35:01

We plucked him out of theater school. He was, He. We actually went. We shot Non Union, which limits your choices quite a bit. And so we were working with this casting director, Alan Scott Neal, and he was extremely creative and, you know, dogging in the way that he found these non union actors, like, initially, you know, theater. In this case, theater actors. And in the case of Naomi, she, you know, she's a trained actor, but she's more of a. She's known as a dj. So he was finding these people kind of out of a. In the alternative, you know, down the alley around back and. Yeah, but we got.

35:25

That sounds very New York to me, guys. And I mean that as a compliment. Travis, I'm curious about your journey back to New York, but before we get there, are we okay with talking about numbers a tiny bit?

35:58

Yeah, totally.

36:11

I'm Curious about how you raised that money and what you feel like was the right thing to spend it on. What were you glad you spent the money on? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but the number's 150. Right. Which is so much money for a regular person and not very much money for a movie. Right. So what? Like, it's impressive that you guys sprung for a casting director, for instance. I think, like, some people kind of maybe do it themselves, and, you know, maybe they have. Maybe they excel at that. Maybe that's a skill, and maybe that's something they should have sprung for. I don't know. What are the other things? How did you cobble that money together, if it's interesting? And then what were you glad you spent money on?

36:12

And just. Just a quick note from having seen the movie, it does not. You know, a lot of people are like, we made a movie for 500 grand, but it feels like $5 million. Like, I. I feel like I always am not interested in those conversations because it's all, like, just so subjective, and they're largely talking about, like, what camera they shot on or something. Yeah. I think that your movie. To me, the only thing that matters is scope. You know, does this all take place in, like, a white apartment? Or does it feel like we're in a world and you're. There's so many locations in your movie. You know, this, like, clearly you shot for many days. You're all over the place. You're traveling. There's energy in the center. So I just. I. Sometimes I feel like when people hear a budget like that, they're like, oh, I don't know if I want to watch that. But this movie feels big. It feels like an episode of, like, you know, girls are Insecure or something. You know, you guys really use New York as, like, this kind of beautiful backdrop. Thank you.

36:52

Thank you.

37:43

Yeah, I guess I'll start on budget, which is. Yeah, we sent the script around, and a friend of mine kind of reached out and was like, hey, I'm down to invest 10k. And that was kind of the start. We just had this 10k and then.

37:43

Cool friend.

37:56

Really have, like, a pitch deck or anything, too, to go along with.

37:56

Yeah, we had a script and a pitch deck, and, you know, I think I'd send it to him with the idea of, like, hey, you know, you're maybe connected. Maybe you could take this, like, production companies or see what happens. And he was just like, I have an idea. I'll give you guys 10k. And we were like, whoa, that's incredible. Like, that's awesome. Maybe other people will do that. And that kind of became the strategy was like, maybe we can just get 5 or 10k from a dozen people.

37:59

Can I ask this friend, what was their profile? How well did you know them, how rich were they, and how close to filmmaking were? They are kind of the three buckets I'm curious about.

38:23

Yeah, so he was basically the producer of a short film mentorship program. I did.

38:35

Okay.

38:41

And so, yeah, I think he has a decent salary, but not like, he's

38:41

not a rich guy.

38:45

Yeah, yeah, he's not like a rich guy. And I think part of his excitement was just to be involved in the film and work on a feature. He'd made dozens and dozens of shorts through this program that he was a producer and EP on. And so I think he was excited to just jump into a feature. So I think it was a decent amount for him to jump in with.

38:46

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like he's close to film. That's interesting because.

39:03

Yeah, yeah.

39:07

And he's become, like, a good friend too. You know, I feel like he. He helped so many of these filmmakers, including myself, make these shorts do this rising voices program. So I think he was just like, yeah, if you're going to do the next. The next thing from here, like, I want to be involved with that.

39:08

It was definitely. I would just say, like, add to that. Like, it was a crazy shift for us because we had this script and we're like, yeah, yeah, money. Like, where are we gonna get money? And it was like, we didn't. Was like, oh, we need to go find a production company. We need to go find, like a financier was like a word that we would say without really even knowing what that means. But then having this individual that Travis described who. Who was our. Our first investor, I think he actually rewired something for us where we were like, oh, he wants to invest in the film this small amount. And like Travis said, like, we could. We could repeat that. And then. And then it was like, oh, we don't need to be worked again. We're looking in the wrong spot. The answer is not in the industry. The answer is over here in these other networks. Friends, family, you know, like sort of film and film adjacent people, but not like a 24 or whatever. Like, not these, like, these, like, traditional paths which are, like, could not be more closed and unavailable to people in our position.

39:22

Yeah, I love that.

40:20

Yeah, good answer.

40:22

So then you found a handful of other people in that same Sort of situation. And you're like, okay, well, here we go.

40:23

Yeah, we just pitched everyone, like, you know, we just asked friends, ask a person at an art gallery, ask a person at a bar. Like, we're making a movie we're shooting in six months.

40:32

Like, who.

40:41

Who could we talk to? Where'd you get money for your film? And just, you know, sent those emails and eventually, yeah, found the right people where it's like, 5K was not a scary number for them to invest in a film, to invest in something fun and to help us pursue our dreams.

40:42

And I think we also. We were like, we were really exposed to, like, just. Just like sort of spoiler alert. We're like, listen, investing. Like, you're not. You're not buying stock. Like, there's no, like, yes, on paper. You're going to get 20% back. But, like, the market is bleak, you know, like, it is really hard to make money. And we just want you to be extremely clear that, like, this is a patronage of a sort. It's an investment. It's, you know, you know, legally binding investment. And, you know, God willing, you will get paid back. But, like, trying to find the way to convey that, like, you're coming on this journey with us. And, like, we're putting that in ink.

40:56

And did you give them something? Like, were you sending updates every week and kind of.

41:27

Yeah.

41:32

Including them on the journey.

41:32

We made them all custom mugs.

41:34

That's cute.

41:36

I like that.

41:37

Yeah.

41:37

Yeah, they're super in. I mean, I think to jump ahead, like, when we premiered at Tribeca, we had them all. Everybody came and it felt like this big. That felt like we were at the top of the mountain. Like, here we are, you know, plucked from obscurity. Now we're at this very legitimate festival with a, you know, a real live red carpet. There's flashes. We're all dressed up like, look like. Look at. Look at us. Look what we did. We did this together, and it really finally meaningful.

41:38

Yeah. They finally let you into the Ace Hotel.

42:00

Yeah.

42:03

Nice. Yeah. Well, I. I wanted to ask a little bit just about the. Some specifics on the movie, some technical things, because it is, like I. I mentioned earlier, the opening shot is this really awesome shot that looks like we're watching a Behind the scenes or like a. Like a film festival coverage of a Q and A. Kind of establish your character's world, his attitude, the way the world sees him, the way he sees himself. You're doing kind of a lot in this one long shot that's kind of like zooming in and uncut and really giving the viewers, like challenging them to figure out what they're watching, but in a. In a good way. Like, it's entertaining. Like what people are talking. Everyone is giving super naturalistic performances, which I'm kind of curious about how you guys got for, you know, for these long performances of people really talking about their personal films. But also my bigger question is you're directing duo, first time directing a movie and together, and there's such stylized filmmaking here. Like, how much of that is you guys getting together and saying, this is how we're going to approach the filmmaking? And how much of it is like, oh, we get to do one take. Let's just do it all in one shot or we're at the airport, we have to steal this. Like, how much does the budget and resources determine the style of the movie and vice versa?

42:03

Yeah, I guess we'll just start like, you know, we had a dope DP too. We worked with Jason Chu, and I feel like we had these calls where like we would just try and think, like, what is a cool way to capture this? Like, we only have so much time. We can't just like cover this a million from so many angles. So I feel like ultimately it was just like, what is the most. What's like the best use of our time and what's cool and what makes it interesting. So I feel like that was actually always a push of like, how can we just shoot less coverage? That feels cooler.

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44:01

howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan. Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things San.

44:04

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

44:12

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

44:16

That's right.

44:24

Hey.

44:25

Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

44:25

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

44:29

News flash. I'M never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find fantasy fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.

44:36

And you guys were on that same page. You were never scared, where you're like, oh, I'll just get one.

44:46

Can we just get.

44:50

We want to cut away.

44:50

I guess there was, like, there was maybe one or two moments where we'd have, like, you know, we should get coverage. But I think our general rule and for like, I mean, a lot of people ask, like, how do you do it with two people? Like, this idea of, like, singular autour makes so much sense, even though it's kind of. I feel like that makes no sense to me. But, like, having, like, a collaboration feels like such a hard thing to. To people just imagine this, like, conflict. And for us, it actually felt very natural where we'd have these situations if there were ever. Let me say that, like, we agreed on a lot. And I think that's why our collaboration works. Like, we're kind of just like on the wave as it relates to cinema and, like, approach. Like, we both come from a skateboarding background and like this like, kind of DIY thing. And that, that the way that that has evolved into this, like, higher production value is very natural and very parallel so that we're kind of similar headspace. And then when there's decisions to be made on set, we kind of had this unwritten rule, unspoken rule of whoever feels more passionately, let's go with that one. So, like, if there's a decision, should we do this, should we do that? And one of us is like, you know, let's do it this way. And the other person's like, yeah, sounds good. And though that would flip back and forth. So, like, the onset, decision making. And then as Travis was saying, like, yeah, we had, you know, we knew that we only had 15 days and we had 90 pages to get through. And that means that we're not going to get to cover stuff traditionally. And then on the flip side, it also forced us to think about blocking. I feel like a mistake or. Yeah, I guess I call a mistake that maybe like filmmakers make is that they just approach a scene as like, you know, why two shot or, you know, two shot, single. Single. And like, they don't think beyond that. Like, what does it mean? And so knowing that we had limited time and we had to do interesting blocking, when we were walking through these spaces, we were thinking about that, like, what happens when the act. How will this force the actors to stand and move so that we can still tell the story?

44:53

Are there storyboards, or it's like, you guys playing all the parts, like photos or.

46:43

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have. We use this app. Is it called Padre? It's like, you know, like, mimics the. Mimics the frame of the. Whatever camera in our Casey Alexa. And there's a bunch of shots of us. Yeah. Standing awkwardly in different positions. Super helpful, I got to say. Like, storyboarding is, like, so underrated. I cannot believe, like, when we storyboarded out shot listed and storyboarded, those scenes soar. And then when we kind of maybe got lazy or didn't fill it in, those production moments felt more hectic every time.

46:47

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I think the more we're gonna do a lot of commercials, and so you get to the privilege of really drilling down into every single frame and every single second in a way that, like, spoils you. I like, you know. Yeah, it's all.

47:21

It's all frustrating sometimes, though, you're like, well, we're just gonna cut back and forth to the overs because they're, like, yelling at each other. Why do we need a storyboard? Every single one of these shots. But then I kind of like what you're saying, Alex, which is, like, knowing you have limited time and limited setups, move your actors and your angles in a way that is. You're doing interesting things in one shot.

47:36

I'm curious, as a duo, how did you divide responsibilities? And was that something you talked about explicitly, or did you just kind of both fall into your own lane and was there overlap?

47:58

I think we just both do everything together. I feel like it wasn't like, you do this and I'll do that. It would just kind of naturally split on set. I think if it was faster for Alex to go talk to one actor and me to talk to the other, we'd do that. But I think a lot of stuff, we just end up kind of both pushing at 100.

48:12

Yeah, there's. There's no. Like, there's no shortage. If anything, it was a huge advantage. You know, there's. We could have used a third and a fourth director. Like, there's so much stuff to do. It's not like, oh, man, like, how come you're doing everything and I'm.

48:29

No.

48:41

It's like, there's infinite. You want to do stuff, there's plenty to do. And it was just like, yeah, grab it. You know?

48:41

And I felt like you were. You were on the same page tonally, like, in terms of performance and in terms of energy of the actors and all that stuff.

48:47

Yeah.

48:54

Yeah.

48:54

I think we, you know, even in the script, we were like, we really want this feel, like, real and grounded and, like, you know, so I think we both have the same eye of, like, is this. Is this feeling natural? And it was.

48:55

Yeah.

49:05

Worked out.

49:06

What did you. I feel like grounded is is like a word that we'll look back at on 10, 15 years from now and be like, oh, we said grounded all the time. What does that even mean anything more? Right.

49:07

It used to be authentic, and now

49:18

I say it all. All the time. Yeah. And I think that your film really is. How did you do that? Like, what did you.

49:19

What were the.

49:27

Did you find yourself saying things to actors to kind of get them into that place? Were people coming in at a more performative level than you were bringing them down? Or what. Were. What were the ways that you talked to actors about that?

49:27

I think, like, one thing I would. I think about is. Is actually it happens a lot in the scripting stage. And I think that there's, like, a thing in movies, like, really from the last, like, 30 years or something where there's, like, a slight heightened reality in dialogue and presentation that, like, audiences accept as real even though.

49:38

Or good. Yeah. Or good.

49:57

Yeah, good. You know, whatever. Like, believable. And then you go and hang out with friends or do anything, and, like, it's. They couldn't be further apart. And that. That's like. When I think about grounded, I think about, like, yeah, like, that messy, clunky way that people actually communicate, you know, like, if Aaron Sorkin is on one end, like, there's reality is on the other. It's like people never say the thing correctly. The pacing is awkward, the wording is awkward. And so, like, when. When we're writing. When I was writing a script, and I think all of us, like, you really just, like, are listening out loud and really being like, is this how people talk? Is this actually how people talk? Or am I just doing this, like, performance of what I think cinematic is supposed to be? Yeah, it's like this pattern. And so I feel like we really focus on that in the script writing so that when we got to the set and with these actors who were incredible, we actually didn't have to do a lot of, like, performance tweaking. You know, we had. We did the read through. Help them understand, like, where our heads were at we were writing. It just like, clarified the sort of beats because it's not always obvious in the script. And then we kind of let them. Let them cook. And I Feel like our job as directors was most of the time, a couple exceptions, but most of the time was just to remind them like where they are. You know what I mean? It's like we're shooting out of order and we're sort of keeping an eye on like the larger thrust of this. Emotionally. We're just like, hey, remember, you just came from here and you're going to be headed here. You know, okay, go do it now. It's not like imagine you're, you know, eating a marshmallow or whatever. We didn't give them those kinds of notes.

49:59

Oh, I love the marshmallow note.

51:34

That's a classic.

51:36

I, I do. It is kind of interesting what you're saying, Matt, too, about Grounded. And I mean your movie is very much about like, kind of the unsaid stress and tension and, and it's kind of much more about what these friends aren't saying to each other and then what they are saying to each other. And I am thinking about like all the Oscar nominated films, like one battle after another is not grounded. Right. And sure, these are sinners, Marty. Supreme's not grounded, but maybe Train Dreams or Sentimental Value. There's some movies that probably feel more grand. I don't know where Hamnet lives on that spectrum, but I think, Alex, your

51:37

point is people just aren't as clever or succinct in real life as they are in the movies. Right. It makes me think. I'm a big Survivor fan and season 50 is happening right now. It's a big deal. But I saw on Instagram my wife showed me just like some behind the scenes of like a couple people like sitting by the fire talking, but it was unedited. It was just like a raw phone video, basically from the reporter. The reporter was on site and I was blown away by how boring it was. And it's exactly what you're describing. But we do it even in reality. We're constantly enmeshing music and sound effects and voiceover and frankenbiting things and tightening things so that conversations are coherent and quick and are in and out in about 30 seconds. And then you're on to the next plot point.

52:12

No silence.

53:04

No silence. But like it's reality. And so you kind of think that these people are sort. They're a version of themselves. But as soon as you pull away all of the artifice the Post can, can put into it and we put into a screenplay even, you're reminded of like how mundane everything is. You know, like they, they were shooting 16 cameras for three days to get that one episode. You know, not literally non stop anyway.

53:06

Yeah, well, so now that this, I mean, I'm assuming this movie is a, is success for you guys, it seems. Premiered at a great festival. It looks great. You guys kind of discovered some actors that I'm sure gonna keep working as long, as long as they figure out how to use IMDb. What's like, what's next? I mean, obviously you're doing your press tour right now, but do you guys see, is it time for Travis to make his movie and Alex to make his movie, or are you guys gonna try to do another one together or maybe try to pitch a TV show or do a pilot presentation or commercials? What's like, what's the next move after a duo releases their first movie?

53:33

You know, we're cooking up another one and then, you know, we, we've made movies together and sometimes we make them separately. I think it's just like, where's like the natural overlap on some of these things? But yeah, I want to jump into making another feature. I feel like we learned so much that I want to use all my knowledge again.

54:09

Yeah. The tragedy of like, independent filmmaking is that you're on set for 15 days every three years. It's just like, I don't, you know, it takes so long to like, get back on the saddle, but like, I'm so anxious and excited to, you know, course correct and all the ways that we implement all these little tweaks that we learn.

54:26

What would you do differently? What's like, the top of the list of that course correction?

54:48

You know, I'm, I'm, I, I look back at this movie and I'm like, that's exactly the way that that movie needed to get me. Like, there's very few moments where I'm like, oh, man, what a fucking amateur mistake we made. I think, I think maybe the, when I think of, we haven't talked about this a ton, but like, I think for me the maybe like one area of this film is that we were so gung ho about moving forward that there was maybe a point with the script where we were like, okay, let's just like, it's time to shoot. It's time to shoot. And I, and for the next one, it doesn't mean we want to change what we have, but like, for the next one, I really want to like, kind of like write it and step back and, and, and think about sort of like the larger implications of the story we're telling and sort of like, what is the meaning and kind of like edit further in that moment. I think for me, that's kind of what I'm thinking about.

54:52

Yeah. Travis.

55:45

I can't actually really think of a thing that I would change, but I just feel like excited to do it again.

55:48

Then how about my follow up question? What would you keep the same? What's the thing you're like, oh, if circumstances are going to be different, we figured. But this is the thing that we're gonna do.

55:53

I would say. I love that framing so much. I really like the way that you frame that. Thank you for asking it that way.

56:03

Yeah. I think the performances, I feel like just delighted every time I watch every performance we got, every character we got, I just felt like they're just, they feel so real to me and I would just love to do that again. Like find, you know, maybe work with the same actors but find new ones and just keep it, keep, keep that level of talent on screen.

56:10

Yeah, that's great.

56:30

When I made my first movie, I had a really introspective, kind of relatively quiet main character that was kind of angry a lot of the film and kind of fighting everyone around him. And I was like, my next movie, I just want a character that's just like joyful and just talks the entire time. Like, to me there's something about like when you make one movie at the next movie, maybe you kind of want to go the opposite energy, you know, I don't know. To me that's like fun to, to challenge.

56:32

I wonder if maybe, Oren, you were also just finding your voice. Do you know what I mean?

56:58

Yeah, I mean, I guess I do kind of have like an energetic poison. I made it.

57:02

Yeah.

57:06

Kind of a. My star was. Is deaf. A deaf actor. This is kind of a quieter movie all around. And even though it's a bat, he's like a fighter. But. But yeah, maybe, maybe I was finding my words.

57:06

Yeah. You're not like, oh, like you haven't swung back the other way. You're not like, I wait to make my next fighting movie.

57:17

No. Now I'll watch a comedy and I'll be jealous like that. There's so little dialogue, you know, I'm like, sure. Everything I shoot has like wall to wall dialogue.

57:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sell chicken nuggets. I have one final question for you guys, actually.

57:30

They're not nuggets.

57:35

Oren, you know, he kind of alluded to the fact that this, this movie is a success by I think most people standards. Right? What. When you were first making the film, what defined Success for you. What does success look like? And then follow up of like, for the second film. Has that paradigm shifted? Is there a difference between what success looks like between that and now? Go ahead, Jaz.

57:36

Yeah, I think just to jump in for this, like, I think success was just literally making it in any capacity for me, like, walking away with any product that was 90 minutes long, I think was just like, fully the goal. And yeah, I think for the next one, it's just like, I feel like in distribution, we've just been learning. It is. It is tough. Having a star in your film is super helpful. Like, getting it out there is tough. Getting the word out. Like, I would just, you know, I think we've gotten to, like, the top of this, near the top of what a film at this scale can get to. And so I think I would be happy to, like, jump up a ladder and, you know, work with like, a little bit bigger talent or union talent, you know, have a little bit more resources on set. Probably, like, make a single dollar would be cool between either of us. That could be an awesome goal.

58:00

To just walk away. You know, even.

58:42

Even $500 would be sick. So I think.

58:44

But I think actually, honestly, like, $1 is a pretty good. Because you're not going to actually literally make $1, but just like getting some money.

58:47

Yeah. Something you can frame and put on your wall.

58:56

Well, $1 in our pocket would, you know, one single US dollar in my hand would actually.

58:58

Oh, you.

59:03

It would, it would represent so much. Like, so much has to happen before a dollar comes to me. I would frame that on the wall. That would be a huge trap.

59:04

Yeah, Yeah. I. I'm sure listeners at home understand why, but you guys are living it right now. Why is $1. What. What would that $1 represent, Alex?

59:13

Well, $1 represents all of the investors getting paid back. The money that they invested. Then they all get to. Then they all should get. They must get 20% additional. And after that, we have to pay back all the costs that we invested into the distribution, marketing, making DCPs, promotional materials, you know, and that. That adds up. And only after all of those things are paid back does any profit start to trickle down through this investment structure.

59:24

So $1 means that like you're $150,000 movie has grossed probably about what, like, $400,000? Yeah, yeah. Well, no, because they. The. Their investors make 120. Right. So.

59:53

Right.

1:00:07

So then it. So that. So, right. So for them to make 180 would be 300. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I guess 180? Yes. Okay. I guess probably closer to 180.

1:00:07

If we, if we make 250 is

1:00:15

probably the number they're looking for then. Yeah.

1:00:17

I was talking to my. My friend who's a filmmaker yesterday. He just. He just got a film in Trivecca as the sports feature, and he was asking me about my experience, and he had a film in 2015 that premiered at Sundance and. And I was like, well, what happened with that one? You know, it's a small film with non actors or whatever. Non professional actors. And he's like, oh, yeah, we sold it. We sold it for 200 and made our. Made our money back right away. We got theatrical and it's like, that

1:00:19

was 2015 though, right?

1:00:43

2015. So 10 years ago, 11 years ago, the land, even that. That's like, not that long ago. The landscape was so much different and there was a path. And I don't want to end on a cynical note. I think one thing we're discovering is that it's pretty tough out there. The distributors are not operating in the way that they used to. There's no more like, plug and play. There's no more like, oh, just like, take your product and plug it into this machine and it will sort of function. That is just like, we're not finding that at all. And it's like extremely DIY and rugged in this moment. And it kind of feels like there's this sort of war of attrition. Like, you just need to survive right now. Figure out a way to make your art that feels good and feels like your question of success. Like, you got to figure out how to feel successful that is separate from some commercial notion of success, some monetary notion of success. Feel good making art that doesn't max out your credit card and burn bridges. But, like, you just need to survive and make more stuff right now and hope that this industry figures itself out, because right now it is in disarray. It's crazy.

1:00:45

Yeah.

1:01:48

That's why one of my biggest frustrations with AI is that, you know, all these kind of AI film people are like, well, now it's, it's. It's just a tool that's democratizing filmmaking now. Anyone can make a film now. The gatekeepers aren't stopping you from making your film. And it's like, dude, there are already so many films that are not getting to anyone. Like, do we want 100 times this many films to exist? Like, the problem isn't that not enough people are making films. You know, the problem is that not enough people are Finding films and like making more of them is not a solution, I don't think. Exactly. But your film is really fun and really great and congratulations. How do people see it?

1:01:49

It's coming to. For those in New York City, it's gonna, it's gonna have its theatrical debut at Brooklyn Academy Music. Bam. April 10th to 16th. So I'll have a nightly screening there.

1:02:32

Oh, nice.

1:02:42

And then that'll be followed by a limited national release. A growing list of theaters across the country.

1:02:42

Amazing. That's. Oscilloscope is setting that up.

1:02:47

Yeah, we're working with them. We kind of carved out theatrical and we're doing a lot of that lift, but they're, they're supporting us in that. Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:49

Cool. And then after that, the streaming vod.

1:02:55

Yeah, we're kind of, we, we, we're kind of holding off a little bit on, on, on the streaming for the moment because we've actually, you know, apropos the conversation of like, where is the, where is the market? We're, we're, we're kind of hoping that we can put as much energy and extend the theatrical and the in person and the eventized as long as possible because we're not hearing there's no pot of gold on the. At the end of this.

1:03:00

Sure. Yeah. Netflix is going to pay you $200,000.

1:03:23

No.

1:03:25

Yeah.

1:03:26

They're not going to even answer our emails. So you know, it's like we need to. You can get it on itunes and Amazon and maybe some, some streamers, but like there's no rush that can happen when it happens. And right now we're focused on. On in person theatrical experiences which. Build that email list anyway. Yeah, build email list.

1:03:26

Well, I guess should our listeners. Is there a website they should go to or.

1:03:45

Yeah, it's the travel companionfilm.com and then we're screening in LA on April 25th at the Los Feliz 3.

1:03:48

Oh, right up. Cool.

1:03:56

I love it right now.

1:03:57

Theater. That's great.

1:03:58

Yeah, yeah.

1:03:59

Awesome. Well, do you have just a minute more to endorse with us?

1:04:01

Yeah, yeah.

1:04:03

Unpaid endorsements. I'm going to endorse a movie that I'm, I'm embarrassed to have. Not for it's taken me this long to see it, but I finally watched High and Low, the Kurosawa film which is like pretty, pretty famous and like very high on all Those like Letterboxd IMDb, you know, like movies you have to watch before you die. But it's like not a samurai movie and I just hadn't seen It. And I saw the. The Spike Lee remake before I saw the original. And I really liked that, even though it's a bit of a mess. And so I finally watched High and Low, partially because it felt like homework maybe. And, you guys, that movie fucking rips. It is so good. It is like, maybe the best movie I've ever seen. Like, from, from a technical level, from the. Alex, you were talking about blocking, obviously. Kurosawa's incredible at blocking. This is the best blocked movie I've ever seen. And it's so funny. It's like breaking news. The move. The movie's 80 years old or whatever, but it's worth it. It's streaming and Criterion High and Low. Holy shit. It's great. Yeah.

1:04:04

And is there any relation to Matt and Low?

1:05:11

Yes, High, Matt and Low, but no. Just to talk about the concept a little bit. It's like a modern crime thriller, basically. It's got all that tension. You see, David Fincher obviously frigging loves this movie. You know, like, it's, it's, it's. It's fun. It's twisty, turvy. The acting is incredible. It's surprising in different ways.

1:05:15

It's.

1:05:38

It's great. It's great.

1:05:39

Anyway, not grounded.

1:05:40

I mean, you know, sometimes grounded, it's a little heightened, but in the way that Kurosawa used to do it. Anyway. Travis, what you got, buddy?

1:05:41

So there was a snowstorm in New York a couple of weeks, like, like almost a month ago. But I bought a sleeve of Chips Ahoy cookies. And I just have not been eating cookies at home in a while and just have some cookies around, man. It's just great to have one or two at the end of the day and just reward yourself and, you know, you get a comfort knowing that you just have so many cookies because it's a really big sleeve in there. So Chips Ahoy Cookies, and that's your choice. Yeah, in this case, I, I, you know, I've been experimenting with other cookies, but the Chips Away sleeve is what kicked it off for me, this cookie trend.

1:05:48

I love it. I love it. Travis. Alex, what you got, buddy?

1:06:19

I'm gonna go with the film too, actually. Shout out Travis for moderating a screening of this kind of re. What's the word? Re. Reanimated film. I don't know, like, brought back from the. From the Edge film. This Covid era film called Teddy out of Tune. Oh, no Budge is. Is re releasing on Blu Ray and they did a live screening. What was that last night? Two nights ago? That Last night.

1:06:22

That was last night.

1:06:45

That was last night. That was last night. The last screening last night. And I think it's actually going to play in LA as well. It's this amazing 60 minute docu fiction. And I went in cold and knew. I didn't even know what. I just. I just only knew the title and that Travis Modern Show Up. And I was floored. I was like, this is the best documentary I have ever seen. I'm like shook at this access these, this, like, this intimacy. And it's not a spoiler.

1:06:46

What's it called? One More Time.

1:07:12

Teddy out of Tune.

1:07:14

Teddy out of Tune.

1:07:15

Directed by Daniel Freeman. And at the end during the credits. And this is not a spoiler because they talk about it in like the synopsis. I realized, oh, this is like, this is a hybrid. And hearing the Q and A and hearing their process, I was like, this, this is so rad. Like, hybrid kind of has and continues to be kind of like a hot, A hot approach. And this, this was like just. This was the pinnacle. Like, damn, this I could. I'm so in awe of this approach. And I've been mean, right. To do the email, I gotta write annual email.

1:07:16

And what do you mean by a hybrid? Like, it's a documentary and it's kind of set up there.

1:07:45

Yeah.

1:07:51

So the main, the main character is playing a version of himself and he's very, very much in on it. And so he's tapping into his own memories. And there's some like scenes where he kind of like does these confessionals, like almost like an off camera interview. And they're so intense and wild and like, just poignant and real, you know, I think they're pretty real. But then there's these like. But the film has like a structure that they designed together and that they talked about ahead of time and sort of laid out in this, you know, almost like an improvisational sketch. And I just loved it. I could go on, but I just really love this film. It was, it was so fresh. I really enjoyed it.

1:07:51

You know what looks really appealing about it? The run, one hour and five minutes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Almost a short film.

1:08:28

Seek this film out. It's really good.

1:08:34

That's rad. Also, Travis, it's cool that you moderated something at no Budge.

1:08:36

Yeah, yeah.

1:08:40

No Butch Cruise. Good, good friends.

1:08:40

New moonlight as a moderator.

1:08:42

Who knew?

1:08:44

It was. It was my first go. But yeah, like, I'm available now.

1:08:45

You nailed it, bro.

1:08:48

I thought your endorsement was going to be how to shoot for free at an airport. But well.

1:08:50

Oh yeah. Next time you guys are on next time.

1:08:53

Captain, what you got?

1:08:56

You know me, when I don't have a good one, I have a really bad out. This is probably going to be my worst one in a while. But I have dogs and they poop a lot and you know, I have this pooper scooper that I pick up poop and just put in this giant trash can and I just bought a new poop trash can for my dog poop and I had did a lot of research on what the perfect size is.5 gallons.

1:08:57

Is that the. The number?

1:09:18

Well, for me it was 3.1 gallons. 12 liters. Okay.

1:09:19

Is there. There's not an issue with having dog that much dog poop in one. Alex is disgusted by you, Oren.

1:09:23

Yeah.

1:09:29

Well, let me if people have any

1:09:30

questions on if you want to follow up, you know, on Oren's poop decisions on how big the trash can is, you're curious about what 80 year old movies I'm watching or if you have questions for Travis and Alex, you can email us at. Just shoot a pot gmail.com or hit us up on social media. That's the best way we're at just shoot a pot across all social media.

1:09:32

And I'm Matt Rmattle and I'm Okaplan on Instagram. This episode was edited by Kevin Oyang. Thanks Kevin. Our social media is done by Lily Bouvier and our producer is Tyler Small. And you're listening to music from the free music archive and artist Jazzar and we will catch you next time. Thanks everyone.

1:09:51

Thanks everyone.

1:10:06

Goodbye. Bye.

1:10:07

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1:11:00

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan. Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

1:11:04

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash Daddy.

1:11:12

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.

1:11:16

That's right.

1:11:25

Hey.

1:11:25

Hey. So, each week, you'll get my unfiltered, raw reactions to every single chapter.

1:11:25

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

1:11:30

Newsflash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

1:11:37