Mike Campbell

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Nora Jones channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Nora Jones and today I'm playing along with Mike Campbell. I'm just playing along with you. I'm just playing along with you. Hi, I'm Nora Jones and this is Sarah Oda. Hi. Hi. Welcome to our show. Welcome. We have an amazing episode today. We have the legendary Grammy winning rock and roll Hall of Famer lead guitarist and primary co-writer for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers for over 40 years. Mike Campbell. You're so excited. I know. He was also in Mud Crutch and he's currently the front man of Mike Campbell and the Dirty Nobs, whose latest album, Vagabond's, Virgins and Misfits, features guests like Graham Nash, Lucinda Williams, Chris Stapleton and Ben Montench. We also want to mention that Mission of Mercy, the fourth album by Mike Campbell and the Dirty Nobs releases June 12th via Soundly 30 Tigers. He's also the author of the 2025 memoir, Heartbreaker, which offers insight into his life story, the band's history, his deep friendship and creative process with Tom Petty. And now this New York Times bestselling memoir is also available on paperback. Be sure to get a copy because the stories are endless. His stories are amazing. As you shall hear. Yeah, we got a few of them for the show, but the book is pretty awesome. Yeah, it was really fun. Yeah. You're going to hear about how he got his first guitar from a pawn shop. You're going to hear about how he met his wife and also the hardest part about writing a book, which isn't writing it. Yes. Stay tuned. This was really fun. And I'm so excited that he did the show. Mike Campbell, please enjoy. There is some spicy language in this episode, so listener discretion is advised. It's not that bad, but just so you know, it's there. I've been in the studio in a long time. I always work at my house. Brings back memories. Yeah, how long have you had the studio in your house? Since I got the house, it's just part of it. Thirty years. We got 81. OK, I think we moved in and it was upgraded here and there along the way. But yeah, I like having a home studio. It's all set up. I don't have to move the drums around or bass is plugged in, guitars are set up. It's so much easier. Right. Yes, I'm looking at music for get moving the mics for getting the sound. The sounds are already there. Drums, they're all on. You know, bass, no dicking around. Excuse me. No messing around with sounds and just, you know, it's a man cave. That's great. It's nice to have that. I love it. Yeah, a lot of people do that now. But I haven't been in a proper studio in quite a while. Really? Yeah, we used to always work in places like this. Yeah, would you just stay for weeks, months, days? How was the recording process back in the day? Well, we used to work a lot at Sound City, which out in the valley. And it would be months, you know, five days on a snare sound. Wow, really? Oh, ridiculous. Oh, my God. Jim Iovine was nuts. That's a lot. OK, now we've got the snare sound. Now let's work on the bass drum. Let's work on the guitars for three days. Try every amp in the world and move it around this part of the room, that part of the room. OK. Oh, the snare sound changed. Let's work on that again. And two weeks later. OK, go, guys. Yeah, that would drive me bonkers. Yeah, I'm not even in the mood to play now. Yeah, exactly. What's wrong? Why doesn't it sound good? Yeah, but then it was great. And then Doug Dunn, you know, the great bass player, he came in one day when we were in that process and sorry. And we were being pissy with each other about what you're speeding up. No, you're out of tune, whatever. And it doesn't sound right. And he's just looking at us, you know, he has this pipe, you know, you know, he is right. Yeah, I do. And I've seen him. I can see the visual. He said, I never heard five guys play real good sound bad. Perspective, right? Oh, my God. It was such a great thing to say. It's true. You know, let them get the sounds together. They're quit pissing around with it. Just play good. Yeah, that's all that matters. Yeah, really, in the end. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have so many great stories, probably. And they're all in your book. Well, yeah, after 75 years, there's lots of stories. Yeah, it's amazing. I can't believe it. There's a couple things in your book that I didn't want to ask you about. And that was, of course, meeting Tom, Pettie. You met him in Jacksonville. No, Gainesville. In Gainesville. That's where you were going to school. College. College. Yeah. The story of how you ended up at college. Yeah, that's special. Yeah, that kind of got me misty a little bit remembering the guidance counselor. He has a really emotional story going down there. I know it's pretty set me on a path, you know. And it's funny, after I was researching the book and I told the story, we tried to find her. Yes, I had never seen her again. And she had passed away, but I would love to have said, thank you for my life. You know, yeah, she's got a chance to. She called you into her office. Mrs. Collier with her name. Yes, the guidance counselor just to say, what's the what are your plans? You know, well, I guess I don't know. Maybe I'll go to junior college to get a job. She's looking at my grade. She goes, no, you need to go to the University of Florida. And I said, I can't afford that. And she said, well, what is your dad doing? He's in the Air Force. She said, just wait here. She got me an Air Force Society loan, college loan through my dad and signed me into the University of Florida and sent me down to Gainesville, where I met Tom. So she. I owe her a lot, you know, and I never got a chance to thank her, but she knows. So special. She must know. Yeah, she must have known how special, though. Like, such a such a beautiful story. It is. It's it's it's heartwarming. There's a lot of stories like that in the book when I meet Marcy and then you meet Tom and all through there. It's like, you know, these gifts of gratitude from. And all the songs that came, I don't know where I why I was so lucky, but I had a lot of. Blessings. Yeah. It's nice to be able to reflect on it. Who was writing the book? Hard. No, it was easy. The audio book was a bit because you had to read it all. No, I didn't have to write anything. I just talked to my co-writer, Ari Sertal, and he would tape it and he would go back and put it into form. I would just talk memories and share. Oh, yeah, I remember this happened. But that was easy. Yeah. OK, now the book is written. Now you're going to go and set it on the microphone. You're going to read it, you know. And get you got to kind of perform it a little bit, you know, you got to be up for it. And I missed a word, do it again. It's like it took like days and days to read the stupid book. That was a lot of work. And you're like, I already did it. I was already sick of it, you know. The last thing I'm going to do is sit here and read it out loud. But you'll probably do a book someday. You'll see. I don't know. The audio book is hard. Yeah, I don't know about that. Maybe someday. I never thought I would either. Yeah. Kind of taught me into it. But it's it's nice. I'm glad I did it. The grandkids would be happy to have it. It's beautiful. And the stories are we interviewing now? Or are we just? Oh, yeah, we're just doing it. Overgoing. I thought this is like a pre chat. No, this is it. Oh, OK. Because I started to say, we'll save that for the interview. No, we're doing it. Yeah, look at you. Yeah, great. When you met Tom and you started playing together. Yeah. Were you guys were already writing music or were you doing old covers? I was he was beginning to write songs. He was in a country band. It was kind of like the Burrito Brothers. And I was in kind of a blues jam band. And I saw his band play and I thought they were good because they had they were doing short songs with choruses. And I was in a band that just started blues and jam for minutes. I thought they were cool. And they caught they my drummer. Got called for an audition because they needed a drummer. Long story short, my drummer and I were living in a farmhouse and he brought them out to audition for them. It just turns out they had lost their guitar player. And so they said, well, we need to have them two guitars. And he goes, well, there's a guy in the back at plays. You want to try him out? And I'm back there in my short here in my cut off jeans. It's one T shirt that I owned and a little Japanese guitar. And you come to Mike, you want to come out and try out for this band or meet these guys? I said, sure. So, you know, they were cool. They had Tom had long hair. They both had long hair. Tom led and Tom Petty and you know, they had cool clothes and good instruments. He had a hopper bass and I walked in with this little Japanese guitar looking like a total geek. I could just see their faces going, oh no. With your shorts? Oh, when do we get this? When we get this guy out of here? Oh, man. And then so we played a little bit and he went, oh, OK. And then Randall, my drummer says, Mike, why don't you do Johnny be good? Because you know that. And I said, do you guys know Johnny be good? And they go, yeah. So I knew it really well. So I kicked it off and we rocked it through. And it got to the end and Tom looks at me and he goes, I don't know who you are, but you're in my band forever. It's amazing. And it turned out to be true. Wow. So it was kind of another serendipitous moment. But we hit it off right away. He was beginning to write songs. I was diddling with ideas. I wasn't really tuned into the craft of writing that well. But I was trying. He was already getting like full on form songs. And some of them were pretty good. He was just getting into it. But we connected right away. Like we know each other. We had the same influences. We had the same dreams. And the rest is history. Yeah, it's beautiful. I know. Thanks. It's special to find that in this life. Yeah. My book is really, it's about gratitude. I'm very grateful. The blessings that dropped in my lap. I've been very lucky and blessed. And I don't know why, but I'm happy that these things happened. But it's interesting. Like you talked about the guidance counselor and then meeting Tom, of course, and meeting my wife. Things that happened in your life. And you come to a moment and you can go left or right. This person can lead you that way or you can decide to go this way. And it establishes the path of your whole life, that choice. And that's happened to me a lot. And fortunately, I made the right choices, I think. And life is mysterious that way. It is. Yeah, yeah. So that's what the book's about. It's just like how your life can follow certain paths that should go along and that defines your history. And if you go on a different path, it becomes something else. Yeah, if I hadn't met my wife or if I hadn't met the guidance counselor that day, I might have ended up working at a gas station in Jacksonville and playing in a bar band and becoming a high school teacher. I don't know what would have happened. You wonder about that. I bet you would still have gratitude somehow. I don't know. You have that energy about you. Well, when you think about your life, I'm sure the same is to you. If you hadn't decided to be a musician, what would you have done? Who knows? Who knows? Such a wild thought, right? Yeah, well, we'll never know. You will never know. That's the way it is, yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the songs we talked about doing, if you still want to do it, was Listen to Her Heart. Yeah. Yeah. So my history with this music is I've loved Tom Petty since forever, and I've loved the band. And I also met my husband on this Tom Petty tribute show. You know the best fest? You sang with them once on a Stones Fest, I think. I don't remember. Anyway, it's this group of friends that does all these sort of tribute nights. And we did a Tom Petty one for maybe five or six years together, and I met my husband on one. We're in New York? In New York. So there's a lot of. So you kind of owe us. I owe you, big. I also just like this music, it means so much to me for so many years through so many things. So when people tell you that, it must feel, do you take it in? Or do you sort of like brush over it and act modest? The one I like is, and of course I'm very grateful. And I can't, sometimes I look around and go, how did I get here? But the one I love is when somebody will come up who was very moved by the music, and it affected their life, and they played, here comes my girl at their wedding or whatever. And they come up, and they're all excited. And they go, your music is the soundtrack of my life. And I go, mine too. That's really sweet. I like that. You know, that's the way I look at it. That's nice. So listen to her heart. Do you remember the story of the song? Listen to her heart was our second album. And Tom was just beginning to really come up with good songs. Our first album, of course, had Breakdown American Girl and some other things. He was finding his way, and his songs were getting good. Second album we brought Listen to Her Heart in. What I remember most about it, I love this song, and we cut it pretty quick. But we didn't have a 12 string. We didn't couldn't afford a 12 string. We were in the studio. And it was a birds type song. So you wanted it. And they cried out for a 12 string, you know? And so I went and got a 12 string for $120, which is now worth $100,000. A little rick and backer. And we used it on that song. So that's the first song we actually used a real 12 string on it. And that's what I remember about it, because it's got that kind of birdsy riff. And it's simple. It's a simple song. Yeah, it is. Direct. And a lot of our songs are Boy, Girl. There's trouble in it, but it's all going to work out. As long as there's redemption at the end, it's OK. And that's one of those. She's going to listen to her heart and tell her what to do. I like it. She might need a lot of love. But she don't need you. It's like middle finger. That kind of thing, you know? Tom was good at that. Yeah. Well, you feel like trying it? Sure. All right. Let's see if we can do it. Listen to her fart. How many times was that joke made? Just now. Oh, really? You guys, it's got wine. I lied through my teeth. You guys put that on the set list, didn't you? We're Stan, I'm sure. OK. MUSIC You think you're going to take her away with your money and your cocaine? Keep thinking that our mind is going to change. But I know everything is OK. She's going to listen to her heart. It's going to tell her what to do. She might need a lot of loving. But she don't need you. MUSIC You want me to think that I'm being used? You want to earth think it's over? Can't you see it doesn't matter what you do? But you don't even know her. She's got to listen to her heart. It's going to tell her what to do. She might need a lot of loving. But she don't need you. MUSIC You just can't creep her up behind her. MUSIC Man, you can't understand that she's being used. Man, that she's my girl. She's my girl. MUSIC She's got to listen to her heart. It's going to tell her what to do. She might need a lot of loving. But she don't need you. Woo-woo. MUSIC Something like that. I forget the ending. That was okay. Funky? Yeah. Funky Bishik. Funky Bishik. I felt the energy. Yeah, I did too. But that's good. That's real. Making a record. We're just having fun. Yeah, exactly. That's fun. Okay Nora, well done. That's fun. Here, I'm going to move back over here. When did you start playing guitar? How old were you? I was 15 or 16. We couldn't afford a guitar. My parents were divorced. My mom was struggling to raise me and my brother and sister. I kept begging her for a guitar because I saw the Beatles and I was like, I'm going to do that. Then one Christmas, she scraped together 15 bucks and got me a harmony acoustic at a pawn shop. It was unplayable, but I didn't know. I tried to learn on it and my fingers would bleed. But I started on that. Eventually, my dad sent me a Japanese electric which I told earlier about when I met Thomas, what I had. It was a little Goya tone that was called. It wasn't too bad of a guitar, but then later on I got a strat and a firebird and a rick and backer and a gill and a Gibson and I've got hundreds of them. Yeah. But back then I couldn't afford one. I couldn't afford strings either. When the strings went dead, I would take them all off and put them in a pot of boiling water and boil them for five minutes and then take them out and put them back on. They were bright again. What? Yeah, it worked. Did somebody tell you to do that? No, I just figured it out. I'm smart. You are smart. I would have never thought to do that. But it didn't last long. It stayed bright for about 30 minutes and then it would go dead again. Okay. But I couldn't afford new ones, so that's what we did. Wow. Do you still have it? I don't have that guitar. No, it's probably a firewood somewhere for somebody. It was a piece of crap. Do you have the Japanese one? The Japanese is a good story. I think I gave it away when I got my strat. I gave it away to a friend. But I was talking about it in an interview once and the Japanese fans read it and they went and found an exact clone of that guitar and Mila told me on my birthday. Can you believe that? That's so sweet. So I have that one, which is really precious. It's the exact same guitar. That's so sweet. Yeah, it was. Thank you, Japan. Yeah. I love Japan. When you guys tour, did you just tour everywhere all over the world or were you mostly in the States? Well, we started out in the States. Our big break was when we went to England opening for Nils Lofgren. Our first album was out. It wasn't doing anything. And the States we were opening, you might play a bar on our own, but mostly we were opening for people like Jay Giles Band or some Bob Seeger here and there. Kiss, we opened for Kiss once. Really? There was plenty of story in the book. I won't go into that. But then we got this in England for some reason, the English press, which is kind of unique. They liked our record more than America. So we got a tour over there opening for Nils Lofgren and the press just loved us. They built us up into the hot shit that year and then we came back to America after that. Nothing. The glory was over. But there was a little bit of a buzz that built from that. So then we eventually ended up playing all around the world. We never went to South America, but we've been to pretty well. We're China. We never went there. We've been to Australia and Japan all over Europe. But mostly over the years we stuck to the States in Canada. Yeah. The tour of my life, the touring life. Pound at a lot of stages with my boots over the years. I saw you guys at the Hollywood Bowl maybe 20 years ago. That's the big time. Yeah. It was pretty great. I love the bowl. Have you ever played there by any chance? I played there once. Isn't it great? It was beautiful. Yeah, I love that spot. Yeah, it's really beautiful. A lot of history too. That was actually the last show I played with Tom and the Heartbreakers. Was that the Hollywood Bowl? Really? Yeah, it was in 2017. It was the last show. That was it. Yeah. Yeah, I met him shortly before that at the Music Cares event. That was the only time I met him. Yeah. Did you like him? I mean, it was so brief. He was very nice. He's a nice guy. I blubbered something. I blacked out a little. I'm sure he loved the attention. Yeah, he was sweet. So many stories. Any particular one you'd like to tell from the book that you find fun to tell? I don't want to give the book away, but it's kind of nice to hear you tell him. Give it away, yeah. Well, of course, my wife, there's a great story. I'll tell that one. Okay. That's kind of sweet. So I'm in LA and I'm in this band called Mud Crutch. Our record deal fell apart. We didn't know what we were doing. And they stuck us all, the whole band in a house out in Canoga Park. I was sleeping on a mattress. I had one little box for my table in the room. Pretty low rent. Anyway, it was Halloween. And one of the guys said, we're going to a Halloween party. There's going to be lots of chicks there. You got to come. I don't know. I don't feel like going out. And they kept begging me. I said, okay. I went along. So we went to this apartment. And of course, there was one girl and six guys. And so I walked in and thought, oh, right. I should have stayed home. So I went in the other room. I was sitting there and there's a knock at the door. And my future wife, Marcy, comes walking in. It was a Halloween party, but nobody was really dressed up except her. She had a little saloon girl. And she had her dog with her, Medina. And I kind of saw her from a distance in the other room. So her dog came over to me. Medina came over and tuned in to me. And I liked dogs, but this dog was just like, yeah, we connected and I'm like petting the dog and we're having this moment. And then Marcy walks up and she goes, I go, is this your dog? She goes, yeah. I said, I think she likes me. And so she sat down and we talked for like an hour or whatever, just like you do when you first meet somebody. And so I drove back that night to my other, to the abandoned house. The next morning I woke up and I thought, wow, that, I really liked her, but I don't have no way to get in touch with her. So I took a chance and I drove back to in my foggy brain where I thought the apartment was. It was on the second floor of some apartment complex. And somehow I remembered which room it was. I went to the door to her friend's name is Marcia. And I knocked on the door to ask Marcia for Marcy's number, right? And so Marcia opened the door and she's on the phone. And I go and she goes, here, she was talking to Marcy. He was saying that guy never asked me for it. And I don't know how, who he was or how to get a hold of him. So it was like, you knocked on the door at that moment. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. That's what my life is like. Things just happened. And so it, you know, it was meant to be. Yeah. And then we connected and, you know, in December, it'll be 50 years together. That's incredible. So that's kind of a, you know, brought together by a dog. And we now have a lot of dogs and this part of our life, but I love telling that story. It's so unique. It's a great story. And the timing is like magic, you know? Yeah. Ain't that right Marcia? 50 years, that's nothing to sneeze at. That's, especially in this business. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. With all the travel. I'm very proud of that. Yeah. Yeah. And you got kids and great kids. We still like each other. It seems like you have a good vibe. Oh, thank you. Yeah. We were talking about doing this Don Henley song, Heart of the Matter. Oh yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask, how did you get hooked up with him? Was he just on the scene? When did you, you started writing with him maybe on the previous album, I think? Yeah. Well, that was Jimmy Iovine who was producing Tom and the Heartbreakers at the time. And Jimmy and Tom came by one day to my studio and Jimmy loved the songs that I gave to Tom. When he heard refugee and here comes my girl, he said, we don't need any more songs. I don't care what you do in the rest of the record. You got the two heads, that's all I care about. Yeah. Which were, you know, it was my music. So he came over with Tom to hear if I had any new songs and I had this demo for boys this summer on a little four track. And they listened to it and they passed on it. It was what was interesting about it is it had a, the demo I had, the chorus went to a minor chord, which I didn't really like that much. And when they went to the chorus on the demo, they all went, you know, kind of jazzy. And I said, yeah, you're right. You know, so anyway, they left and I thought about that. And then Jimmy called me and he said, I just spoke with Don Henley and he's looking for songs. Do you have any? I said, maybe that song that you showed me might be good for him. And I said, well, what kind of, does he want a rocker or a slow song? He wants the image maker. I'll get right on it. Yeah, I've never heard that. So I went back and I thought, you know, that I could change that chorus into a major chord. So it lifts up as boys this summer. I can see you go to a major chord instead of staying in the dark chord. And so I changed that on my little demo and then I went over to Don's house and met him and played it for him. And he, I had never met him before. So I went into his kitchen and he had this big long table. He sat at one end. I sat at the other end. And he had a little. Middle ages. Yeah, like that. And so I gave him the cassette and he put it in. I went and sat at the other end of the table and he sat like this. Didn't move. And I thought he hated it. So I said, okay. And he finished it. He said, I'll, I'll get back to you. You know, I put your shoes. He was like, thanks, but no thanks. Yeah. And then I got in my car and said, well, it was interesting. He didn't like it. And then I got a phone call and he goes, I've just written the best song in my life. Wow. To your, to your demo. And he said, I want to record it right away because I'm finishing my album, my second solo album. And that's how we met. And that began a relationship. So later on, he was working on another album and he called me again and said, do you have any songs? And I had this little piece of music that turned into Heart of the Matter, which I gave to him. And that's how that came about. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Crazy. That is crazy. This song, I remember when it came out and I loved it then. Thank you. And listening to it again today, I'm just, it's such a moving song. The lyrics are very powerful. They're very powerful. And I was thinking about myself listening to it as a kid. And it's such an adult song, lyrically. But as a kid, I loved it. It's deep. Yeah. And I felt like I had a glimpse into how hard it was going to be to be an adult somehow. There's, you know, there's something about it that takes it all. And I was just on telling me after we did that song, you said, I had to live 30 years to be able to write that song. It's such a beautiful song. You have to live through those experiences to have those feelings and understand that kind of relationship, I suppose. For sure. But as a kid, I still understood the song somehow. Well, there's, you know, songs are like that, you know, even if you don't know all the words, there's a spirituality or an aura about certain songs that just connect. Yeah. It might be the music and the melody or sometimes it's the lyrics. When you get all three, you're really lucky. But that song has an aura about it, of hope, I think. For sure. But I mean, it also has such a rich story in it. Yeah. The words are incredible. Yeah. I was lucky to get that. Yeah. Really well done. Yeah. Beautiful song. Oh, thank you very much. I think so. Yeah. You feel like doing it? You want to do it? Yeah, you want to do it? Let me move to the back of the whirly. I hope I can remember these words too. Yeah, it's a word salad. It is word salad. Okay. You three, four. Some old friends of ours were talking on the phone. Said you'd found someone. We thought of all the bad luck and trouble we went through. Now I lost me. And you lost you. What are these voices outside love's open door? Just throw up our contentment and beg for something more. I'm learning to live without you now. But I miss you, baby. The more I learn, the less I understand. All the things I thought I'd figured out. I'm learning again. You're trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But everything changes. And my friends seem to scatter, but I think it's about forgiveness. Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore. These times are so uncertain. There's a yearning undefined and people filled with rage. We all need a little tenderness. How can love survive in such a graceless age? The trust in self-assurance that lead to happiness. The very things we all kill, I guess. Pride and competition. Fail these empty arms and the work I put between us. You know it doesn't keep me warm. I'm learning to live without you now. But I miss you, baby. The more I learn, the less I understand. All the things I thought I'd figured out. I'm learning again. You're trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But my will gets weak. And my thoughts seem to scatter, but I think it's about forgiveness. Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore. All the people in your life who've come and gone. They let you down. Oh, you know they hurt your pride. You better put it all behind you, baby, cause life goes on. Keep carrying that anger. It'll lead you up inside. Baby, I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But my will gets weak. And my thoughts seem to scatter, but I think it's about forgiveness. Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me. Trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But my will gets weak. And my thoughts seem to scatter, but I think it's about forgiveness. Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore. Forgiveness, even if you don't love me anymore. Nice. Okay. Aw, that was nice. What a beautiful song though, I mean. Yeah, it's pretty good. I never really get to do that. Yeah, it was interesting because in the book, you talk a little bit about the bass pedaling notes. I love that the change you were like, so does the walk up. Yeah, that's really important. I call it a Brian Wilson chord. Yeah. The bass is a different note in the root. Yes, exactly. I like those kind of things. I know you do. And I've noticed it and it's cool. Oh, thank you. It's like a real voice leading. It almost comes from classical music, I think. Yeah. Well, I tried to get into music school and college, but I couldn't read good enough, so they kicked me out. Wow. But I took music history. Oh, cool. And I had this great teacher, Mrs. Henderson, who played cello and she would talk about the theory of pedal point. Yeah. And like, I used that a lot. I didn't realize, like an American girl, dang, dang, one note up high as the chords change underneath. Yeah. That's a nice thing to do. And the other thing, which I picked up from Beethoven and Brian Wilson, all people, is having the bass chords be in the third or the fifth. Yeah. And not always on the root. It creates a nice suspension to the song. I love it. Yeah. I like that. And I like that you clued me in that that was important because I knew it, but I forgot it. Yeah. Yeah. I love the way. But it kind of makes that song because of the notes going up and then instead of going back, it goes to the E. Yeah. And it's like, seriously. Yeah. It's like, it's also kind of reminds me of gospel music. Yes. Gospel music. Very church. But yeah, I love Brian Wilson. He, his chords and his compositions are just genius. Yes. I listen to him quite a bit. Of course. Try to emulate him when I can. That's great. But cool. Well, this was really fun. Yeah. Thank you, Nora. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for inviting me. You're welcome, Nora. You too. Okay, cut the mics. I'm going to tell her a dirty joke. Tell me a dirty joke now. I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matters. I love that song. That brings me back to like serious sixth grade, 1989. Okay, fourth grade. He's such a sweetie. He's amazing. Yeah. He's funny. He's very funny. Yeah. Thank you, Mike Campbell. If you want to know what songs we did, we did listen to our heart, which is of course the classic Tom Petty and the Heartbreaker song from, you're going to get it released in 1978, written by Tom Petty. And Mike Campbell played the guitar on it. The second song we did was Heart of the Matter. It's a song he wrote with Don Henley for the album End of the Innocence from 1989. And they wrote it together with JD Souther. Thanks to Mike Campbell for joining us today. We'll be back next week with Brandy Younger. Nora Jones is playing along as a production of I Heart Podcasts. Visit Nora Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Nora Jones. This episode was recorded at Westlake Studios in Los Angeles, California by Thomas Warren, assistant engineer Danforth Webster, backline tech Jason Moser, mixed by Lamey Chandra. This episode was mixed by Jamie Landry. That's his new nickname now. Lamey when he's being lame. All right, Lamey. Oops. You got to keep that in. Audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler. Additional recording by Matt Maranelli. Creative consulting by First3. Artwork by Eliza Fry. Photography by Shervin Lenez. Produced by Nora Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers Aaron Wong-Coffman and Jordan Runtog. Marketing lead Allison Cantragreber. This is an I Heart Podcast.