The artist AI can’t kill

You hear people sometimes say things like, AI doesn't have a soul. And it's like, well, what the fuck are you talking about? Of course it doesn't have a soul. It's a computer program. People say, oh, this AI agent's my friend. It's like, no, a friend is a two-directional relationship. The AI agent can't be your friend yet. If you look at AI as a way for humans to do less, you will be very fearful of it. If you look at AI as a way for humans to do more, you will be inspired by it. The future is going to be so weird. These technologies, they're moving faster and faster, and they're sort of like intertwining in ways that we can't sort of like predict. Digital culture used to live on the margins. Now it sets prices, shapes taste, and even redefines ownership. Today, we speak with a digital artist who didn't come up through galleries or institutions. He built his reputation one day at a time, publishing work online for free for years, long before anyone ever thought it was valuable. Almost overnight, that work collided with blockchain, NFTs, and global speculation. This conversation isn't about hype or quick flips. It's about what happens when technology, authorship, and attention converge in a single moment, and how culture, value, and ownership are being rewritten in the process. Welcome to Possible, people. So, Mike, I've been a fan of the art for a long time. Thank you. Thank you. It's not just, obviously, the amazing artifacts, the intersection of technology and the imagination and creativity, but also the kinds of things you're willing to make fun of, the kinds of ways of using satire, of making this work. We'll cover a bunch of this stuff. but you know this podcast possible technology optimists you know kind of hoping for what do we make in the future probably and this is one of the reasons i've been really looking forward to doing this with you a little bit less familiar with art right people what does like how does that name come about what does it brand stand for what is the for people who probably like who's this mike guy that reads talk and do well what's the intro sure so uh thank you very much for having me very much appreciate it um I've been a digital artist for 25 years I'm 44 um and started making uh digital art when I got to college I went to school for computer science and then kind of struggled through that and and sort of just graduated and I was like I'm just gonna like get a job doing web design and like make art on the side and so you know that's what I did and technology has always been at the sort of like forefront of of all of the art that I've made Since I got a computer in fourth grade, it was like, this is the thing. Which computer was it? It was a IBM 386 SX, I think. I think it had four meg of RAM and a 20 or 40 meg hard drive. Few people will know what that is, but we do. You know what it is, yeah. It's like, yeah, you appreciate how insane, you know, everything is. And so just kind of have been making digital art for the last 25 years and sort of growing, following on social media. And a lot of people know me for the sort of like everyday project where I've been doing a picture every day for the last 18 years and done a bunch of sort of concert visuals. And then the NFT thing, you know, obviously exploded. And now here we are. And here we are in the Node Foundation with the launch of their, you know, the kind of museum and CryptoPunks. But we'll get to that. So I do think Everyday is a good place to start because it's one of the things where I think also, you know, kind of breaking on the scene with Christie's and all this. How did you start with the Everyday project? What made you decide to do it? What made you decide to stick with it? When did you start realizing this was a project that people were going to track? So I started in 2007. I wanted to get better at drawing. And so I had seen an illustrator out of the UK named Tom Judd who did a drawing every day, a sketch every day. And I thought, wow, that's a really cool way to like, the project had kind of completed it. He did it for one year. And I thought, wow, I want to get better at drawing too. So I was like, why don't I try doing that? And so I did that. And after the year, I realized I'd learned a huge amount. And I was like, oh, I'd always wanted to learn a 3D program, a 3D animation program. And so I was like, why don't I do a render a day in Cinema 4D and try and teach myself this program, which I knew nothing about that same way. And so then I started doing a render every day. And then very quickly, it was just like I just kind of kept doing it. But it definitely was kind of like a slow progression of people sort of like, you know, kind of like learning of this. Like definitely for the first year, and this was again in 2007. So Facebook wasn't even open to the public at that time. I was just posting it on my website and it was just like nobody saw it. And so, you know, it really kind of like slowly gained sort of like steam over that, you know, over the sort of like full 18 years. Was there a moment where it kind of hit an inflection or was it just kind of like where suddenly it was like, wait, there is this long kind of it's almost like I'm thinking of that film, 7 up, 14 up, 21 up. you know kind of following people or like where it suddenly went aha this is now evolved into something um there i don't remember like a very specific anything happening it was really just like pretty quickly something that i i knew i was not going to stop doing there was never really any time where i seriously considered stopping doing it but yeah it really just was like a slow progression i mean obviously the everyday sale was a pretty like okay this is like you know a thing but that was you know well into the sort of you know kind of like career of it but yeah i think it's i think in terms of like continuing to sort of like do it it's i have an appropriate um expectation for each day yes and that expectation is that i put a jpeg on the internet and so So if you kind of boil it down to like, it's not like every day needs to be this like masterpiece. It's like, it's not gonna like, it's like things are going on. Like I don't have, you know, 365 masterpiece ideas per year. And so it is going to be what it is. But the like momentum of the project kind of like continues it going and sort of, yeah. And I think just the act of sitting down, I think you have more ideas in you that you think. And I think that you don't have a lack of ideas. I have this sort of like saying you don't have a lack of ideas, you have a lack of deadlines. And if you had more deadlines, you would be like, hmm, more things came out. Look at that. And so, yeah, that's a big sort of like ethos of the project. That's a great way to look at it. And the day you're referring to, I think, was March 11th, 2021. Christie's sold every day at something like $69 million. Congratulations. Now, most people kind of go, I declare victory. I get my sailboat. You know, it's awesome. You go, no, no, no. I'm going to reinvest in the art community. I'm going to reinvest in young artists. Say a little bit about what that moment was for you and then how it is you said, okay, this is how I'm going to help amplify young artists, art culture, et cetera. and what that springboard has been since then. Yeah, I think I got a lot of people being like, oh, dude, you retired? And it's like, yeah, I retired from like 60-hour weeks to like 90-hour weeks. Like, what the hell are you talking about retired? But part of that is like I was doing this for free for many years. And so it's sort of like, well, now I'm doing it and people are like paying me a shit ton of money to do it. And so it's sort of like, okay, I'm not going to stop now. And it's like, to me, it wasn't like I saw this big payday coming where it's like, oh, one day, you know, somebody's going to pay a shitload of money for all these. It was like, you know, when the NFT thing prior to that, like it took a lot of convincing from my fans to be like, NFTs are a thing you should look at. Because I was like, I wasn't super into crypto. It was like, I don't, this is like, I'm a digital artist. Like, what does this have to do with me? And then when it clicked, it was like, oh, wow, this could be that moment where people sort of like look at digital art different. And other mediums have gone through this where they were like not art and then they were art yes and I was like this could be that moment and so you know it sort of like clicked but I think the idea and the ability that this money has has sort of like allowed me to open up a space and and sort of like hire you know a team and my brother quit his job and sort of like was a huge huge piece of building out that team like those are things that I feel just insanely blessed to be in a position to do because I recognize how, you know, insanely lucky and sort of like rare that opportunity is. And to me, it's also just like the opposite issue. I have to like kind of like, OK, just like pace yourself here because there's so many things. And now with the AI and robotics and all these things, there's just so many things that I'm so jacked up about. Let's try this. And so, yeah. So we'll get to a lot of the future AI, robotics, etc., including some quasi-ish dogs that I saw recently. But the thing you just mentioned I think is a good moment here is what was that aha moment on NFTs? Because we're sitting here in the Node Foundation. You're having this whole launch. What was this NFTs? This could really be art. Yeah. I'm naturally a technologist. I'm naturally a software engineer. I'm naturally a creator. But I'm not actually like I got convinced into being a crypto person with NFTs and I saw the the artistic light moment. What was that moment like? What was the realization? The realization was that like I considered what I was doing like art, like that this was capital A art. I was sitting down. I was making a picture like, of course, that's art. What I didn't realize is that a lot of the traditional art world kind of didn't really look at it as art. It was just like that's just like digital stuff. And that sort of process, photography in general, specifically, really went through that, and it took a long time. Photography was around since the mid-1800s, but it wasn't until the mid-1900s that it was looked at as actual art. It was just like photography is just kind of like a craft, and you sort of do it, but it's not like art. And then it was like it kind of clicked that this NFT thing was a way to own digital art in a way that was native to the medium. and there was a growing consensus around that this is how you sort of like collect art. And people were paying sums of money that I think were obviously more significant than digital art had ever been valued before. And so it was like, wait a second, this is that kind of like moment where people were like, oh wait, this thing that actually makes up the visual language of almost everything you see. Because if you think about it, a website, a commercial, a TV, a video game, a billboard, all these things that you see, those are not made by painters. Those are not made by sculptors. Those are made by a person sitting in Photoshop, a digital artist creating digital sort of like medium. So everything we see is already like made by digital artists. Like why would it not be an actually like respected medium just like any other medium? Because it has all the same properties. It has craft. It has intention. It has message. It has nuance. It has all these things. So this medium is, you know, NFTs is allowing scarcity. It's allowing people to sort of like collect it and view it in a way that, in my opinion, the way I always viewed it. You know what I mean? So 2009, you created a work called Subprime. And it was kind of like a way of, you know, commentary on the collapse of the housing market. what made you decide that an art piece was the right way to comment what was the you know always a little hesitant about asking for intent from artists because i know that part of the art is like the art is you experience it and it causes you to reflect and see the world in a certain way and not as much to say oh here's a sentence i wanted you to remember when you're looking at it sure but say a little bit about the creation process and why that was a how is that a mode of expression, and then how is that kind of a part of the Beeple journey for this evolving stream of art? Yeah, so Subprime is a short film that I did in 2009. It was actually kind of the first short film that I did that used Cinema 4D, and it was really actually the first piece that kind of like blew up and sort of like went viral. And prior to that, I had been putting a lot of time and energy into entering film festivals and getting tons of rejections. And it was just like, you know, at first I thought, like, I would enter film festivals just that had, like, big cash prizes because I was like, oh, well, this is for sure. I, like, just give me the fucking check right now. And then I would get rejected and not even get into the film festival, much less, like, win the top prize. And I was like, okay, yeah, let's, like. Not working yet. Yeah, this is not really the thing. and so that was the first thing where I kind of like put a lot more sort of like attention on posting you know kind of like videos on the internet and what that could sort of like bring but I think the message behind it was really again this was at the height of the sort of like housing crisis and you kind of like see the this house sort of like build more and more and more and then at the end there's kind of like a for sale sign on it and and it sort of you know was trying to be indicative of how we built up all this sort of like thing and then it was like oh shit there's no demand here and then it kind of you know collapsed but the things that i'm trying to do sort of like more broadly with the the pieces that have any sort of political sort of like commentary or things like that is more so just like post questions and and sort of you know lately more in like a humorous way sometimes some are not as more humorous um but just sort of like reflect back how things are not trying to be like here's how things should be it's just like here's how it is what do you think about that um and so in that way i think the work is a lot more different than you see a lot of work in the traditional art world that is more pushing a specific message or outcome that they would like to see happen and to me again there's no sort of like right answer but that is more like on the scale of like propaganda in some point than sort of like, you know, again, there's no right answer, but like I'm more interested in just asking questions. And what is the way that, you know, you and the persona people are using art to ask the questions? Because I by the way I generally agree because part of the thing is how do we have a good dialogue How do we have an evolving culture of society It starts with questions You should always start with questions It a much better healthier thing And then the dialogue is what eventually gets you to provisional answers But so there's lots of ways to ask questions. You could simply go, how fucked up is this? But you also go, no, no, here's a tangible way. I've put invention and creativity and a shaping of our perceptions of our experience. What's some of the way of thinking about kind of how art helps ask those questions, helps us experience it as a fundamental human thing? I think to me, I think there's many ways that that can sort of like be accomplished and art can ask questions. I think the way I approach it is sort of like taking a theme that I see happening today, an idea or sort of like dialogue that I see occurring and sort of like extrapolating that out into the future in a very extreme way of like sort of like okay here's what that that might lead to 50 years from now in a crazy techno sort of like future um in again an absurd sort of like way but yeah it's it's trying to like take themes that i see and like okay here's the ridiculous end point of that if we sort of like go down this route or here's a very extreme kind of like version of that to maybe get people to look at the conversation that they're having in like a potentially different sort of like light well and obviously one of the things about being in very challenging times today you have a very rich artistic landscape yeah there's no shortage of inspiration over, let's say, the last 10 years. And I think what's interesting about that too is up until 2019, I would say, most of the work, there's been pockets, like you said, like subprime, and there's been a few other short films that were a bit more political, but a lot of the work has just been abstract. And so it's actually fairly new, the very topical, kind of like pieces that the everydays sort of like touch on now. But yeah, there's certainly... And is it moments of resonance? Like you go, oh, this is really important to extrapolate in the future? Or is it like a creative idea that comes to you? Like, for example, you know, you may have more recent pieces of this, but the one I'm most familiar with is the kind of quasi little dogs with, you know, internet titans faces going around taking pictures and, and pooping them out. Right. Which like what I found actually not only interesting was the art exhibit itself, but actually like seeing all the responses of the people around it. Like did, was it an idea for that? Was it like, oh, I've got robotics. What can I do with it? Or was it, I want to comment on these kind of tech titans and how they're interfacing with society and what the image looks like. What's the kind of combination of ideas that come into that? It's a little of both. It's a little of sort of like looking at the things that we're sort of like playing with and kind of like putting together some pieces of sort of different things that we had at the studio and different kind of like tangential sort of like, you know, projects we had going. I have a vague idea of what I'm trying to say with the piece. And it sort of like crystallizes more after I make the piece. that it's sort of like I need to see the finished thing, and then I can kind of figure out like, okay, what is a message that this could sort of like impart? But it usually doesn't. It definitely doesn't start. It's like a fully formed like, okay, we're going to have the dogs. It's much more like gray, and I need to like experiment and see a bunch of things, and like that's not really the thing. Like I definitely, it's not just like I wake up and it's like, boom, fully formed idea. okay, let's get to work, boys. It's really like, okay, what about this? No, and I'm constantly trying things and being like, no, no, no. Because at the end of the day, I'm trying to make something that I have not seen before. And that, I think, is the most important thing. And it's really hard to do. It's really hard to do on a deep level, make something that you've never seen before. and I think that is actually the only sort of like thing that an artist should do and from there how people interpret it I think it will sort of like do that but if you look at the like art that has stood the like test of time all of it was stuff that people had not seen before and then they were like and at first they were like that's not art and then they were sort of like okay yeah I guess I see how that could be art and it slowly like inched forward the people's sort of like view of what art could be and i think that's what i'm sort of like trying to kind of like make and so the robot dogs hopefully were something that was like not seen that before well not only had not seen it before and it had a kind of a set of internet memes which also created a bunch of different echoes but like when i was watching it at the was really fascinating to watch people interacting with it it's almost like socialist theater like the fact that it was designed in this kind of interactive way of would you know would the bezos dog go over and look at somebody and then you know what was interesting about that is people and i think this this speaks to like a sort of like broader conversation that is going to become very very relevant very quickly here is the dogs weren't looking at people the dogs were literally just like walking around trying not to bump into each other and people like looked at them and they were like, it's looking at me and like blah, blah, blah. It's like, I promise you it is not looking at you. The script is not looking at you at all. But people like anthropomorphize all these things. This is also the art process. This is also the art process, but I think it's also like that's a bigger conversation about sort of like AI that I want to have and I think is very important and is going to lead us into some weird places is we're anthropomorphizing technology and AI specifically. and I think that is going to be lead us into very weird places. You hear people sometimes say things like AI doesn't have a soul and it's like well what the fuck are you talking about? Of course it doesn't have a soul. It's a computer program like the fact that you're even saying that it's like kind of insane and it shows how crazy advanced it is that you're like that's not human it's again no it's not human like have you ever said your refrigerator didn't have a soul like what the fuck are you talking about And so I think that's going to continue as AI becomes more and more human-like, and it is going to lead to very weird things where people are trying to assign human rights and human-like things to machines that, I don't know, I'm not sure we should do that. But again, shit's going to get weird. So I agree we shouldn't. One of the classic ones is people say, oh, this AI agent's my friend. It's like, no, a friend is a two directional relationship. The AI agent can't be your friend yet. But despite that, like one of the things like there's a there's a group of CEOs that I have dinner with every so often here in Silicon Valley. And one of our discussion topics last night was that some people have been marrying. I just said, yeah, yes. And you're like, oh, OK. It's like, I don't know. It's kind of like, that just to me is so bizarre. And it's just kind of like, and I think that's sort of like another theme in my artwork, is that I think the future is going to be so weird. Because these technologies are moving faster and faster, and they're sort of like intertwining in ways that we can't sort of like predict. And I think even the NFT thing and sort of what happened with me with this $69 million sale was a mixture of social media suddenly allowing this kid from Wisconsin to amass a following of 2 million people with no sort of like vetting from the outside traditional art world. And then this other crypto technology coming along and sort of like allowing, you know, this sort of like sale to happen. And then something weird happens from it. And so I think we're going to see a lot more sort of like weird intertwining of like technologies. So what are some of the ways where AI, Internet, et cetera, has been capturing your attention for questions? Right. So one of them, obviously, the over anthropomorphization. right it's the oh it's my friend oh it's my spouse like like okay i think you need to learn other human beings a little bit better it's not just the mistake of the ai it's a mistake of of human beings and so forth but what are the other ways where you go okay this is changing our landscape into the weird and how do we ask the right questions to make the weird more good than bad? Yeah, that's a good question. It's so pervasive in, you know, every sort of like aspect of sort of like society. And I think it's going to just continue to sort of like grow. It's really, to me, very hard to kind of like wrap my head around even where to begin with something like that, because it's very hard to like compartmentalize, you know, like, oh, it's just going to affect this thing or it's just going to affect that. And I think I don't see enough people who are both very excited by the possibilities of it and also a little like, pretty quick here, guys, who are like, I think this is going to be very disruptive. Yes. Like the chances of it, like, you know, getting real bad are like definitely non-zero to me. But at the same time, I'm like, I mean, we're literally sitting behind an AI sculpture that I've got and it's like, oh man, look, I can do this thing now. Like the ability of like, you know, possibilities, it's allowed me to make work that I can express myself in different ways and sort of like, you know, make things, like I said, that I've never seen before is like immense. So I think it's really, I just wish there was more people who are approaching it in a much more nuanced way. Yeah, well, curious, hopefully optimistic, but also very attuned to it's a very unusual and weird landscape. What are some of the ways that you engage with AI in your creative process, in your construction process? What have you found to be interesting and useful? What have you found to be, you know? There's, I mean, there's quite a lot of sort of like different ways. For the everydays, I use it, you know, very extensively on the everydays. This is the first year actually where I'm using solely sort of like AI before. I've kind of like been incorporating it more and more over the last sort of like two, three years. But this is the first year where I'm like, okay, what if I just tried just doing sort of like AI as the like everydays? And so that's one way. Obviously, these sort of like sculptures behind us in terms of, you know, sort of like the programs we're able to write and sort of like the development we're able to do with the studio. It's been insane how much we're able to lean on this stuff to program stuff. The robot dogs were using AI to look. They were taking pictures and then ranking the pictures for how good they were and then using a style transfer thing to do that. And then the entire process of all the code that underpinned that was all written by AI too. so it's really I mean we've done speech things at the the studio to do that we just did a sort of AI kind of like performance with Danny McBride a few months ago at the studio where we had all kinds of different sort of like things we've used you know to make short films and and sort of like all different types of like video as well and so honestly like I would say almost every sort of like, you know, kind of aspect of generative AI from coding to video to image making to, you know, sound. I've touched on all of it. I've got 60 bazillion subscriptions. If you've made any sort of AI thing that is a subscription, I promise you I have the like gold tier and I probably used it like three times. Well, it's part of the art expression. So because part of what we do on Possible and Podcasts is we're trying to help people grasp their agency, see how technology can shape a more human future. It's part of the reason why we love your art, the questions you're asking, like satire is a very important part of that. It's not to say it's all like seeing the good, the bad and the weird is extremely important. So how would you kind of help people understand how AI can help you with more human expression? Like what's the thing you would say, hey, this is the way that you can take your agency, grasp it, use it for creativity, use it for explaining, for exploring humanity. What would be the kind of like here's been my path so far and here's some notes to all these younger artists that you help? Yeah, I think it is something, and I feel very – it's something because there's no right answers with art. And so people are like, I don't like this. I don't want to do it. They're not wrong, but it is going to be very hard, especially if they want to work in a commercial world, to continue to work. Yes. Because the speed at which it can allow you to sort of like make things is just absolutely unprecedented, and you just can't keep up. And so to me, it really is purely a tool. It does not have a – It is a tool which I can use to express many different ideas that would otherwise take an insane amount of time, and we just wouldn't do it. Like we actually had a CryptoPunks event a couple months ago at the studio or whatever, and we made this little CryptoPunks game that you could match the traits or whatever. We just wouldn't have done that without AI. Like it wouldn't have been like, okay, let's spend, you know, hire a bunch of developers and spend, you know, $50,000 to make this little like thing that's just a small part of it. We just wouldn't have done it. Yes. Like, and so in that case, it allowed us to do a thing that, you know, is engaging and fun and like, you know, an expressive thing that otherwise just wouldn't have happened. And so to me, that's what I'm sort of like interested in. I'm interested in not necessarily using it as a shortcut, but unlocking things that you couldn't do. This sculpture behind us uses AI and it uses it in a way where people upload pictures and are able to sort of like influence future versions of the box. That would not have been possible without AI. AI is like deeply in the like material of how this artwork functions. And so I think coming up with those ways to look at AI as allowing you to not just be lazy and do less but how can you do more And I think that really is the sort of like crux of it. If you look at AI as a way for humans to do less, you will be very fearful of it. If you look at AI as a way for humans to do more, you will be inspired by it. And like, that's the thing I wish people could sort of like take away with this tool. Well, and precisely that is a great way of putting is what we're trying to do is convert fear into curiosity. Yeah. Right. So it's like, don't have fear, have curiosity about what you can do. And actually listening to your comments, which I think are awesome. It actually makes me think of AI as artistic intelligence. Right. As the AI is like one of the things you as part of grasping that agency is something you can actually do in terms of it. And I think it's, you know, your work is one of the kind of the leading lights, even in a light sculpture, for doing that. What are some of the lines of kind of, call it human experience, that are currently captivating your attention as things to explore now that we're in this very beginning of AI? I think it really, I don't know. It's so good at visualizing different things that just you couldn't do before. And I hear people talk about like one of the criticisms of it is it's just regurgitating things and it's not making anything new. It's like that's not true. Like there's many things that I've seen before where it's like you could not do that before. Or minimally, it would be so expensive to do. Nobody would do it. And so it's like shots where it's like, okay, that shot is this weird, absurd thing. The only people who prior to AI could do that would be like ILM. And they're probably not going to spend $2 million to make this 20-second clip of Donald Trump, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And so it's like that's a new thing. And so I think in terms of being able to be more expressive about the sort of like human experience, I think we're at the absolute sort of like beginnings of what is possible. And I think we will only continue to find more and more things that sort of like allow people to express themselves. Because this brand new tool didn't take away any other tools before it. It's like you can still do all of the things you could before, but now you can also do this. And so I think looking at it as sort of like, you know, instead of drawing a picture in an afternoon, you could write a whole book. You could, you know, write a whole like kid's book or whatever. And so it's like instead of, you know, writing a kid's book, you could make a short film of that book, like make an animated series of that book. You know what I mean? And so it's like all these things are just sort of like it's just allowing you to do more. And so, yeah. Well, and part of it is you can now create like 100 different versions and you can go, hey, 3, 17, and 26 all have interesting things. Now I'm going to take those out and the speed at which you're iterating and the ability to do like micro things. Like, hey, we're going to do a CryptoPunks thing. I mean here we are at Node's launch for your art and for CryptoPunks. It's like all of a sudden all kinds of CryptoPunk things become possible. A hundred percent. And I think like it's I get that it's tough if you're sort of like job and what you do was involved in sort of like the craft of that. And it does. That's the disruptive part that I have a lot of empathy for people who are, you know, many times worked their entire life to build up a skill that that skill is kind of like now in the hands of many people who didn't put in all that time. And so I get that. But I think it's not going away. Like it's just not. And so it's kind of like adapting to this new reality and sort of like looking at it. I think a lot of times it's I picture it as sort of like looking at it as like now you're the boss of you. And so you just moved up one layer in the sort of like the kind of like hierarchy of sort of like abstract thinking where it's like now picture you had like a million you's under you. And what would you do with a team of you's to do different things? And that's what to me makes it an inspiring sort of thing that it's like now I feel like I have a team of artists that I'm able to sort of direct like that. And now what can we do? That sounds exactly right. What has worked and not worked so far, because I'm sure you've experimented with this, going to various of these, all the gold tier subscriptions and all the different AI services and said, make me an ex like people would. And what has been inspiring so far that then creates self-reinforcing improvement on your quest for questions and satire and originality? And what has been – by the way, I've done this to say like Howard Reed Hoffman, make money investing in AI. And most of it, those answers suck. But it's like – but where have you discovered things that you went, oh, this was an interesting part for the – as a team of beples working on things? it makes things i would say it's it's roughly the same thing that it's like most of the time it's like oh make something and be able it's like nah it's like it's pretty mad yeah um but what i think is interesting about that is had this technology not occurred i don't know that it would actually be that and so what i think this that people are sort of like not kind of like getting and i think they sort of like, well, this is, you know, killing creativity or whatever. I think it's completely the opposite. I think everybody's like expectations went way up because now I see things all the time where it's just like a pretty picture that before if I would have saw it, but I'm like, holy shit, this is like amazing. Like I know the like time and energy and like work that would have like put it, put into it. And now I see it and it's like, man, it's fine. whatever like it's like maybe if you would have saw those ideas of like what would read hoffman blah blah blah and you saw those like seven years ago it would have been like these are pretty good ideas like it's like i don't know maybe we should look into some of this stuff now you see it and you're like nah that sucks like it's like everybody's expectations went way higher and like the bar for creativity now to cut through the noise of everything is actually much higher than it was five years ago. Yes, and that's called progress, which is great. I think it is. Yep. How much do you sweat the which parts of it are me and which parts that are the AI? Like, you know, in things like, you know, diffuse control, which I think just recently, you know, did its run in LA. And I think now is here in the node. How much do you kind of think, like, does the question matter which parts of it, like the AI tools bringing it and which parts people's bringing or does it is it like no no the thing that matters is that high watermark of originality and asking the question and being satirical and and drawing that line to that possible very weird future i think that's a good question um i don't sweat it that much um because i think it's it's more like is this interesting and it's sort of like if you leaned too much on AI, then there's a high chance it won't be that interesting. Versus if you actually came up with something very novel to ask AI to do, then that's the interesting thing. You gave it a very interesting prompt to be like, do this. And then when it did the thing, maybe you did rely hugely on AI for the actual production of it, but what's actually interesting is the prompt. Because again, anybody can type any bullshit into AI and you're going to get something and be like, nah, it's fine, whatever. It's not that interesting. Just like everybody has cameras. Everybody takes pictures. Are you a photographer? I'm not, and I take a lot of pictures, but I would never consider myself a photographer. And I think with art, it's going to be the same thing. everybody's going to be prompting shit and like making all kinds of digital art that doesn't mean they're digital artists and nobody's going to be interested in it almost definitely and so i think it really comes down to what is the intent what have you brought to it to not just have it be something that is some very average thing that anybody sort of like could have come up with so since we're sitting here at kind of the opening of the node foundation and and in addition to your at Scriptopunks. Are you working on anything currently in the Cryptopunks universe? I am not working on anything in the Cryptopunks universe. We did just do a sort of like bigger meetup just a few months ago at the studio in Charleston. And it is something where I view Cryptopunks as just this absolute sort of like masterpiece that is one of those artworks that completely checks the box of expanding your view of what art could be. And I think people, it's to me so far ahead of its sort of like time that I think it's going to take a huge amount of time for people to kind of like fully sort of like grasp how crazy it was. And even because I came so relatively late to NFTs, like so many of the things that I take for granted in terms of the infrastructure, I mean, just the fact that there was no marketplace. Like, this is like, I mean, the effect that it has had on my artwork and sort of digital art in general just cannot be, you know, overstated. And so to have a work, you know, with the CryptoPunks show here is such a, like, huge, huge honor. And I, myself, by the way, I vaguely tracked that there were CryptoPunks, but it was only recently in a trip to Bhutan with Sean, our mutual friend, and some others that I was like, oh, no, this NFT thing is going to come back in various interesting ways. It kind of had a commercial spike and then drop. But I think, no, no, no, action back. There's an enduring nature to the art part of it. And obviously you, Sean, not me, are expert on it. And so I recently got in it at CryptoPunk. There it is. There it is. So I was like, hey, no shame. Late joining of the community. But it's still like this is the – because the inner place of where does identity play in? Where does art play in? Where does community play in? And how is it a collective expression of I am the we and we're all playing into it? It all fascinate me. And it's part of the reason why I was like, hey, you're going to be down here. Let's do a podcast. Let's start doing this. Because that exploration of what's possible in human creation and human expression and human community and human connection is, I think, like one of the things where we grasp our agency and do. And I think that's one of the things that art does so critically, which is the reason. So when you're helping kind of then, you know, and I'm much older than you. So, you know, the younger artists, but you're still young in my age clock. What's the kind of things you're trying to hope that the way that they will also help bring art into culture and society? And what's the ways of kind of asking the question about the weird, about being, you know, kind of grasping technology as being human? What's some of the stuff you're doing to try to encourage the next generation? I think it's really just to encourage the next generation to embrace this technology and look at it as a tool to express yourselves and unlock an amount of work that you just would not have been able to do otherwise. And sort of I've talked to sort of like, you know, college students a few times and it's not there is there is unfortunately still a percentage of people who think this is like an opt out thing. And it's sort of like it's like it's I disagree that this is going to be an opt out thing if you would like to work in a sort of like a decision. Never get in a car. Yeah. But it's very hard. You can definitely do that. You can decide I don't do email. You can do that. It's going to be hard to operate. There's a certain amount of possibilities that will be closed off to you from that choice. And so just that is one of the things that I've really tried. But I think that's where the worry comes in because it's moving so fast. I'm very thankful and feel very sort of like blessed to be, you know, kind of like in this position and not a 20 year old starting out and being like, what am I going to do for a career? And it's sort of like, I don't know what you are going to do for a career if I'm being totally honest. and I think that's a conversation too that I feel like we should be having more that it's like what are we going to do here but yeah I don't know well what I think is it's more open because of a time disruption my very first book was A Startup of You which is how everyone needs to think of their career even if they're going to go get jobs and never start a company as an entrepreneur as entrepreneurial, it's creative and that's actually part of the reason why I think your particular, like artist paths are always super hard, long in the desert, you know, and almost always, if they're any good, trailblazing. And so you can like go through the desert for a long time before you suddenly find an NFT's Christie's Oasis, right? And then that kind of starts compounding. But that's more of what everyone's careers look like. So it's got to approach it like an entrepreneur and also take agency and don't go, oh my God, I thought I could just apply for a job at the local company and then just do that it's like yeah that's less of the yeah future universe but don't go oh my god life sucks because of that go yeah there's opportunity yeah yeah i can be creative i can do something and grab the agency in terms of in terms of what you're trying to do and i think among the the things that i think great artistic expressions do is to show well this is something this is an example of it a hundred example of conversation 100 and that's the thing i also serve that's a great point and something that I really try and impress on kids too is like just go do the thing like don wait for somebody to pay you to do the thing like just go do the thing and like I did so many projects for free and so many projects that it was just like I love doing this thing Like you know and it was really the art in general. Like I didn't honestly think it was ever going to sort of like be a job. It was just like, I'm going to do web design. I'm going to put all my sort of like real energy and passion to sort of like creating art, but sort of like, that's just a side thing. And like, if it never makes money, whatever. I like, I love doing it. And so like finding that thing that you love doing that you don't need somebody to pay you to do and sort of like really sort of like putting your sort of like all into that, I think is, is a huge, huge thing. Um, you know, for, for sort of like young people to sort of like take away. So one of the things I've also noticed is you've gotten smart about, like learned over time and gotten smart about like, oh, social distribution is part of what encounters and makes the question be heard, right? Gets the interest raised and paid attention to. So how much does the dynamic of that kind of social distribution play into your creation process, to your launch process? I mean, this is like very parallel to something I do with companies. We just say, look, figure out your go-to-market equally with figuring out your product. That's what I tell consumer entrepreneurs. So where does that fit in your creative process and your launch process? How much of it's deliberate? How much of it's accidental? How much is I just have a platform now and it works? No, it's very deliberate. And it's always been sort of like deliberate. It's been a sort of like conscious choice to make design choices that would make my work sort of like more seen. And again, sort of like coming up with, you know, coming up through sort of like web design, I was very, you know, aware of sort of search engine optimization. and so when I started posting you know work on social media I realized very quickly that it's like okay if I follow some of these rules that I can sort of like you know get more sort of like reach and get more people to see this and so it really you know is something I kind of like think a lot about in terms of you know trying to break through the sort of like attention economy and kind of being able to sort of like get this stuff seen and again there's no right or wrong answers But to me, I am trying to kind of like have a dialogue with these things and want them to be part of sort of like a conversation. And so if people don't see it, then that's very hard to have that conversation. And so it really does play a lot into many design considerations because I'm trying to make things that are very visceral and can cut through that noise, which is very, very hard to do. and so yeah it really is something that I'm kind of like okay is this artwork something that is going to be you know similar to the dog something that you're immediately like whoa what the hell and I think if you are trying to do something that people have not seen before that naturally kind of like goes in hand in hand because the things that most often go viral are things that people have not seen before it's like oh did you see the blah blah blah that blah blah blah is never something that everybody's seen before it is by pure virtue of the fact that it went sort of like valuable it is something novel and so um yeah it's something that i'm sort of like acutely aware of and I think is actually weirdly not that much of a concern in much of the traditional art world. I feel like that's not like they're just like whatever I don't give a shit if people see this and like it seems kind of like pretentious in a way that it's like this is so brilliant like either you'll fucking like see it and get it or like you just won't and it's just kind of like I'm like, okay, well, good luck with that. Well, I think it answers the Zen koan of like a tree falls in a forest, no one dared to hear it. It's like, fine, you can ask these philosophical questions about sound. But if there's a piece of art that is never seen, never engaged with, you know, that's nice. What's the point? Like the point is to ask the question. The point is to have the experience. The point is to be on that journey of what is the journey of human experience. 100%. And you don't always need to love it, but I would rather it evokes some sort of emotion in you. I would rather you either love it or hate it than just be like, meh, that's whatever, that you can easily ignore it. And so, yeah, it's definitely a consideration when I'm making art. 100%. And then, so this, given we're in the Node Foundation, it's a new organization entity. So one thing is, okay, art should evolve for thinking about how does that question get asked through the various media? How does the dialogue, the discussion happen? How does the encountering of the question, how does the encountering of the satire, how does the encountering of the perspective happen? How do you think museums should evolve? Because art should evolve in all these ways, but how should museums evolve as well? I think museums have a massive opportunity to be more, through digital art, more inclusive in a way that's – what's the word I'm looking for? sort of like objectively like more inclusive in that they could because it is by virtue of how the medium works it allows for a lot more sort of like voices to be sort of like shown and so I think you will see museums sort of like doing that very easy sort of like concrete example is if you hang a very nice screen in a museum you can show thousands of artists from the local community versus if you wanted to have a group show with thousands of sort of like things, physical things that needed to be sort of like shipped in from all over the world or whatever, that's really hard. It's really expensive. It's sort of like logistically a massive undertaking. And so in that way, I think digital technologies will really allow a lot more sort of like, you know, kind of like voices to be at the sort of like table. And I think what I would love to see museums do is, again, sort of like focus on that attention economy, maybe a little bit more. And not to the point where they just become, you know, a sort of like physical Instagram, but I think there's maybe a little bit more of a sort of like happy medium of kind of like meeting people where they are and trying to sort of like make sure we're kind of like programming. and I think using digital technologies that I think are more visceral and maybe accepting and understanding that like, I mean, I hate to say it, my kids grew up with like iPads and sort of like shit like that and so it's like, it takes a little bit more to like, you know, for them to have a sort of like an emotional kind of like connection with a piece and so I'd really love to see museums kind of like be more, you know, part of more current conversations too because the sort of like speed that a lot of museums work at is that's been another challenge coming from the sort of like digital world where it's like I make something, I put it out immediately when I want to. And then it's like we talk to museums and it's like, okay, so 2028. And it's like 2028. It's like, are you fucking shitting me? I'm not even going to give a shit about this artwork in 2028. I'm going to be four other things that I made, whatever. And so it's just like probably 30. Yeah. And so it's like I would love to see a bit more sort of like, you know, recognizing how fast culture and how fast things are moving and trying to kind of like be able to be part of those conversations in a closer to real time than they are now. Modern time. Yeah. Modern. So rapid fire questions we ask all of our guests. you can answer at any length. Okay. First one, is there a movie, song, or book that fills you with optimism for the future? No. Not one? Maybe not. I don't know about optimism, but like, I don't know. Like, I guess for the future? For where we're going, for the path? I don't know. Not really, to be honest. You strike me as a very optimistic person. This is surprising to me. I wouldn't say optimistic. What is one you have? Give me a... I'll give you a couple examples. Give me a movie. I don't read any books. I'm not that much of a book reader, sorry. No, no, no. I actually think there's elements of the Murderbot Apple television series that does that. I've not seen that. Highly recommended. Okay, I'll watch that. Murderbot. How about, well, actually, in fact, like this is a little bit, this is 10, 15 years old, but like some of the best television I think I've ever seen was the Benedict Cumberbatch Sherlock Holmes. The Sherlock one. Right. Because the kind of question of how you can take this old thing and make it very present future, it's like a through line of humanism. Sure. Right. Would be an example. most technology films are like oh look the AI is coming to get you there's a problem but like for example even in some of the written science fiction Ian Banks has a culture series which is how does AI and human beings help create the future together which even with dramatic tension and so forth I'd like to see more of I feel like it's hard to do something optimistic that doesn't come off like... Too Pollyannish? Yeah, too weird. Because I don't think, I don't necessarily think the future is going to be good or bad. I think the future is going to be much like it is now. Is today worse or better than 50 years ago? I mean, it depends on how you look. I could find many ways to be like it's much better in mortality rates and sort of all kinds of metrics to show that the world is like much better. But many people don't view it like that. They see, you know, things that are not as good. And like, I could also find, you know, metrics where it's like, you know, suicide rates and blah, blah, blah, that are like, no, that's not great. And so I think it's going to be like that in the future. And so I don't know, maybe that's just how I like view things that it's not necessarily optimistic. For me, I actually think it will be better. I think 50 years is better. It doesn't mean it's better in everything. It doesn't mean that there are some things that haven't gotten worse, which we either have to improve or not. By the way, I think precisely the reason why your work and work like yours of asking the question is part of that, how do we have a better path? It's never perfectly better. That's cool. Where do you see, this may be another challenging question. That was the worst rapid-fire answer in the history of this podcast. Shut her down, boys. Shut her down. Or promote her, right? It's exactly right. Where do you see real progress happening outside your industry? I mean, I think there's real progress in sort of like many different things, you know, like we had talked about with sort of like medicine and kind of like people, like human rights and things like that. I think, you know, much of that is actually getting better. Again, if you're looking at like sort of like longer time scale. So I think I am very, you know, I don't know. I guess optimistic is like maybe it's still like realistic. I feel like you're like pragmatic or whatever. But I think there are many different ways you can look at it about things progressing. So here's one of our favorite questions, which is, what's a question that you wish people would ask you more often? That is a good question. Wow. I do. What is a question? um i think sometimes there's questions there there's a lot of focus on sort of like the nft technology stuff like the the the questions you asked were really good because they were a lot so much more about the like art than the like technology and probably because you come from the technology like okay i understand it's like but like a lot of times in the like art world they're so focused on the technology and it's kind of like wow you really didn't ask me that much about the actual sort of like art yes it's like that's weird it's like most of the time like so this is on a blockchain and so yeah i guess i wish the art world would talk more about art art with the technology not the technology yes yeah yeah so um and our final very optimistic question If everything breaks humanity's way over the next 15 years, what's the first step to get there? What is the first step to get there? That is a good question. I think it is, I don't know. It's just I think the first step to get there is recognizing that we might not get there. I think that the good things will come almost sort of like automatically if we build this crazy thing that can like answer all of our questions. The good things, it will just be like, well, you just answer it. How do we solve cancer? There you go. Cancer is solved. The bad things will also come automatically unless we like try and mitigate for those. So I almost think we need like a kind of like more pessimistic view in like weirdly, ironically, in some sense to like mitigate those bad things from kind of like, you know, overpowering the good things that will automatically just some pessimism to power optimism. Yeah. Mike, it's been a great pleasure. I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Possible is produced by Pallet Media. It's hosted by Ari Finger and me, Reid Hoffman. Our showrunner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Tanasi Delos, Katie Sanders, Spencer Strasmoor, Imozu, Trent Barbosa, and Tafadzwa Niemorundwe. Special thanks to Surya Yalamanchili, Sayida Sepieva, Ian Alice, Greg Beato, Parth Patil, and Ben Rallis. A big thanks to Scott Winkleman, Sean Bonner, Natalie Stone, Becky Kleiner, and the rest of the team at the Node Foundation.