267: On Marc by Sofia, Love Story, Kirsten Dunst

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No, it hasn't. Hi, my name is Lauren Garoni. And I'm Chelsea Fairless. And welcome back to another episode of the Every Outfit podcast. Chelsea, we have very exciting news for the fuck-ats. What? We went to Sushi Samba! Yeah, I'm sure they really give a shit. I think they do. I mean, I feel like we've been talking about this forever because it has been under construction for years and it finally opened up. It definitely has the spirit of a restaurant from the early 2000s and design and vibe wise like we anticipated. It's very much giving Dubai. Oh, it's very spiritually Dubai. For one thing, it is a exclusively rooftop restaurant. And I had read that, but I had assumed like, oh, there's a portion inside and then there's like a very large rooftop outdoor portion of the restaurant. No, it is all outdoors. Which is so great because there are virtually no restaurants in Los Angeles that were conceived of as outdoor restaurants, despite how good the weather is here. It's actually crazy. Right. And I had posited that there was maybe a retractable roof, which you and Tat were like, there can't be. And then there was because, you know, even in LA, if the temperature dips below 68, it's just, it's too cold for us. I did feel like I was going back in time though. And it was so interesting talking to our server because he told us that they tell the employees about the Sex in the City episode as part of their onboarding for that job. He made it seem like that's the first thing they say about Sushi Samba to orient people as to what Sushi Samba is. And to your point about it feeling very early 2000s, it is, except don't you dare call it fusion, which was another thing our waiter made us aware of that in training, they're like, you know, it has a lot of different flavors, not fusion though. I didn't realize that fusion was a dirty word. I don't know if that word got canceled, if it's out of fashion or what. Well, I guess fusion food is kind of out of style. I guess so. Another thing that's out of style. And we did love our experience as Sushi Samba was the waiters and waitresses uniforms. Yeah, they could have done a better job with that. But I was into going to Sushi Samba. I fully would go back. Oh, you were so into Sushi Samba. I've honestly, I've never seen you happier. You came back from the restroom with such a smile on your face because you ran into a woman and you were like, look at this. And it's because she had Samantha's gold Fendi baguette. Yes, from the LA episode. And I asked her, like, are you wearing this because you knew you were going to Sushi Samba and because it was on sex in the city. And she was like, yes. And then you were like, can I take your photograph? And she was like, I guess, sure. This is the legacy of sex in the city, truly. And Sushi Samba. The fact that it's still like top of people's minds. Well, yes, sex in the city definitely played a huge role in that restaurant's continued success. You also had the energy of Samantha when she's reminding everyone about the reservation at Samba, which we've done the friend of me's episode. And we are still not sure if Samba was a fake restaurant invented in the world of sex in the city, or they are indeed referring to Sushi Samba. We've talked about this a million times. It is a fully different restaurant. But you kept reminding me you were like, Sushi Samba, next week, do you get the calendar invite? We're going to Sushi Samba. I didn't want you to forget. So you haven't seen the second episode of the Comeback yet, and that episode is filmed in part at the Soho House, which made me think about what sex in the city and what Michael Patrick King has done for the Soho House over the years, also similarly to Sushi Samba. There are certain institutions that we will always associate with sex in the city on some level. The WeHo Soho House or the Arts District? The WeHo. Yeah, the Arts District one is a Soho House that actually has the pool, which it really should be the West Hollywood one, although. They should both have pools. But I hear that Soho House is out of fashion now. I don't know. I was never a member. It used to be. I remember going there in the early 2000s, like the New York Meatpacking one, and I felt like it was the place to be. There was also definitely pre-pandemic, a moment in Los Angeles where that was the place to have meetings. I do know cool people, though, that are Soho House members, I will say. And I do enjoy hanging out at the pool in the downtown LA one. But anyway, this is a digression. It's a deep digression. I think we should also get into, I would say, a slightly insane behavior that we all indulged in at the end of Sushi Samba, which is we realized that the Willy Chavarria Zara collaboration was going live at 9 p.m. on the West Coast, which is an insane and frankly convenient time for one of these drops. Well, we used to get that convenience when it came to end just like that, right? It would drop at midnight on the East Coast, but 9 p.m. for us. And Daddy MPK snatched that for season three. And that's why it wasn't renewed. But we kept being like, do we wrap up our dinner at Sushi Samba early so we could all get home and be on our laptops? Because surely this is a laptop activity, but we were just having too much fun. Okay, you know that that's something that Gen Z people on TikTok make fun of millennials for doing, right? That we can't make big purchases on our phones. We have to make them on laptops. Like we can't buy plane tickets on our phones. I was just about to say, never will. I can't bring myself to do it either. And Tat always makes fun of me. She buys plane tickets on her phone. And good for her. Anyway, we were a little tipsy and we all just went shopping at the table. Yes, we did go crazy because in our tipsy state, we were like, you know what, we're not gonna like half the stuff anyway. So we'll just return it. That's how we justified it to ourselves. And I don't know about you, but I like pretty much everything I bought. Oh, really? To be fair, I bought a lot of things for Paul. So I ended up buying more items for him than myself, which makes sense with Willie. He does do women's wear. But yes, it's a more men's focused brand. For me, about half of the stuff I bought worked out, which is what I anticipated. Did the red long polo dress, which was very you work out? No, that looked like shit on me. No. No shade to Willie. Sometimes you just don't know. Yeah, I got the short version. There was a short polo dress with long sleeves. See, the thing with these collabs is you never know like what's gonna look like Willie and what's gonna look like Zara until it's like physically like in your possession. I don't know about you, but I was impressed with the details of this Zara collaboration. I think it speaks to this upcoming Gian Galliano collection because the boxes were a different color. They were fully Willie branded. For Paul on his pants, there was like grip tape, so it would stay on his waist properly. Yeah, I was surprised by the quality of a lot of the pieces if for no other reason that I feel like they could be mistaken for ready to wear pieces. And I'm surprised that the collection was also so massive. There was so much stuff that the average person like would never be able to tell that it was Zara. I actually got a suit, which was crazy. The suit worked out for me, the women's suit. Oh, wow. And I got a pair of jeans. Fascinating. Yeah, the breadth of the collection. I got a couple body suits, two dresses, one that made me, I sent you guys the photo, but I don't know if you should keep that one. No, no, no. That I returned. Okay. It made me look like it was this mini dress button down with these very exaggerated shoulders, which Paul was trying to encourage me to keep as more of a costume for every outfit TV. But I sent you a photo of me in it, and then I sent a photo of this guy, Big Ed from 90 Day Fiancé, who has some sort of issue where he has no neck. His head and shoulders are kind of merged together. And that's what the dress was looking like. Yeah, I don't know if that was your piece necessarily. But again, you never know until you try. I'm sending a couple of pieces back because I don't know if you've been to the new Zara store at the Grove. It's beautiful. The vibes in there creep me out. I'd honestly rather like a semi-delapitated like mall Zara that's just like crammed full of shit. Well, the return section has never been more oppressive because they've somehow figured out how to do basically a self-checkout version for returns. They were like, if you don't want to wait in line, just go to this kiosk. And then, which would be fine if not for the fact that you then have to package everything up yourself. And then you open up this wall and then it just, it absorbs the package and it goes somewhere. But the funniest thing is it's not even a return label, Chelsea. They make you put a QR code. So someone else is still doing the return work in the bowels of the Zara. But there's like no forward-facing employees. You feel like you're left alone in this scary dystopian Zara that has like the same eerie minimalist vibes as Kim and Kanye's house. It's very unsettling to be in there. I do not enjoy it. I understand the impulse to make a space look more upscale than you would imagine. But I also feel like in execution, like something happened, something went wrong. We have discussed this when it comes to hotel design, particularly in Los Angeles, where everyone just got to loom-pilled. I know, like for fuck's sake. It's all that same like plastery looking walls, lime wash. That is what I imagine is going to happen to our beloved standard West Hollywood, which is becoming the West Coast location for the public. But I mean, everyone loves Y2K. Like why is no one just designing something that looks like it would have opened in the year 2000 that itself was trying to look like the late 60s, early 70s? That's really all we want. I know. I was scrolling on Instagram the other day and someone posted like all of these images from the Miss 60s store in New York. Oh, wow. In the Y2K era, which was fully designed with like a Werner Pantone kind of 60s space age look to it. And it was just so incredible. I miss when there were stores like that. Diesel stores also used to have that vibe, which is funny because that's their style now. Like the style of the clothing being designed is very early 2000s. Yet all the stores look like you're in Tulum. I don't know. I haven't set foot in a diesel store in years. There's one in the Beverly Center, but I mean, who's going to go there? You want to talk about an abandoned mall? No, I know. It's scary in there. Mommy, I don't like it. Mommy, take me to the Century City Mall. Take me to the Americana. Have you seen the trailer for the new A24 horror film called Backrooms? No. This is based on an online trend, I guess, or it started on 4chan or something. I still don't quite understand it, which I think is a generational divide, but it is this idea that you're just stuck in a liminal place that you can't get out of. So very when you were describing the new Zara at the Grove, I'm like, oh yeah. It's like if Backrooms was in a fashion store or something. Anyway. We have a new sponsor, First Day. They create daily multivitamins that support your family's health and happiness with real science and wholesome ingredients. I feel like a daily multivitamin is a habit I've just never been able to keep. I start, I stop, I find a new one, the cycle repeats. 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And as someone that is digesting all of this information, at the end of it, I feel like I'm Odean. And then we basically have a month and then it's the Met Gala, which as we've noted, I'm so scared for this year's Met Gala for no other reason than literally the last two years, we haven't even been able to view everything by the time we record because there's just so much content now. Well, I'm excited for this Met Gala because I feel like the theme is good. And it's been a while since there's been a good theme or a theme that I can see people wrapping their heads around. Yes, put differently, an un-fuck-uppable red carpet theme. Yeah, although I'm sure many will fuck it up, which is part of the fun. And that's where we come in. I hope they all fuck it up. Wouldn't that be great? We need more fashion victims. If this year's award season and it's red carpet has taught us anything, people are too safe. Okay, movie news. Our girl, Kirsten Dunst, she's selling out and we approve. Okay, you say that she's selling out as if she wasn't in all of those Spider-Man movies, which obviously I never watched, but they did happen, I think. They did happen. But since her tenure in comic book movies, she has done her time with your Sophia Coppola, your Lars von Trier's, and she even said last year in Town and Country magazine that she wants to be in Minecraft 2, one because her kids love the first one, and also because she'd like to make a pile of cash saying, maybe I can just make a movie where I don't lose money? And wouldn't you know it, Chelsea? She has just been cast in Minecraft 2. I missed Minecraft 1, so this has very little impact for me. I did as well. We're going to talk about, because Kirsten has been cast in two movies that passed us by Minecraft being one of them, which that movie last year grossed nearly a billion dollars. And we have no idea about this cultural moment. It's also based on a massively popular game. Is it a game or is it a toy for children? Like Legos or something, because they all have those blocky little heads. That's like the one thing I know about Minecraft. It's a game that I'm sure has spawned toys. Okay. So Duns will play Alex, one of the primary avatars available to players of the Minecraft. That's all I got from the deadline article about this. I will say that what she also talked about in this Town and Country piece was that early this year, she was going to be shooting a new Sofia Coppola film, which in Sofia Coppola's press run for this Mark by Sofia documentary, she admitted to Elle magazine would no longer be happening. Yes. And previously they described this movie as a period film that would set her around a real life historic figure, who that is. We have no idea. And Sofia said that they shelved it because times are too dark right now and this story felt too sad. What? Like girl, you made the virgin suicides. Look, if this frees Sofia Coppola up to make what we've learned is evidently her dream project, which is a bio pic about Britney Spears, then so be it. As if that wouldn't be sad? That would be the saddest movie in the world. I just love that Sofia Coppola's special interest is Britney Spears. It is kind of weird. Although I read her say something to the effect of like when she shaved her head and beat that car with an umbrella that was extremely punk and it was. Like that moment was fascinating to me. Yeah. She also said of that moment or the person interviewing her notes that because she was living in Paris at the time and working on Marie Antoinette, she wasn't aware of Britney Spears whole breakdown and the blackout era. Right. So she's learning about it kind of 10 years later. It seems like the Britney Spears memoir was a turning point for Sofia Coppola. And I like to think she listened to the Michelle Williams audiobook walking the streets of Noho or something. And I would love to see her direct Britney Spears bio pic, although it would very much be the sanitized version. This is the woman that directed Priscilla. And that's fine. That's fine. I love that. But I also would like to see a Britney Spears movie that does dive into the darkness. Who do we think this canceled film could have been about? Sylvia Plav? That would have made sense. We've kind of run out of tragic blondes at this point. Like there's been movies about all of them. If she's playing a brunette, though, I have no idea. That opens it up to a wide range of people. See, this is the thing. Like I understand why she's doing Minecraft because her kids like it. And that's like an understandable reason to do something. Like isn't this why Kim Kardashian was randomly did a voice in Paw Patrol or some shit? Right. But also, I feel like Kirsten Dunst's version of selling out should be like entering into the limited series world in the way that Chloe Seventy has where like you would think that Kirsten Dunst and Chloe Seventy would be up against each other for the same roles as like vaguely white trash moms involved in some sort of true crime situation. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, she did do Fargo, which is where she met her husband, partner, Jesse Plemons, but she really hasn't dived back into. Well, she did that weird Central Florida show that I tried to watch, but that wasn't a limited series. I think that was supposed to be like a full blown television show. Right. Well, maybe she got burned from television. I don't know. I think she should explore that further because it seems like that is where the roles are for women over 40. Well, she doesn't have time because she's also been cast in the Housemaid too. Now, up until a few days ago, Chelsea and I had not seen the Housemaid. I was aware that this movie came out just a few months ago and made like $400 million in the theater, which also made me realize like there is a whole other world out there that I'm unaware of. The first film, The Housemaid, stars Sydney Sweeney as Millie. I guess she will be back. We've subsequently learned the Housemaid is a series of books, right, featuring Millie, who is an ex-con with a mysterious past who is hired as a live-in maid for a wealthy family with. Chelsea, can you believe it? A dark secret. And in the sequel, Millie returns and according to the plot description, she takes a job keeping house for a woman she's never allowed to see, only to discover the truth behind the locked door that threatens to expose secrets far darker than her own. So we've now seen the Housemaid. We're not going to spoil it. It has like one of the craziest twists I've ever seen in a movie. You said Tats reading the sequel now, right? Yeah, she read the first book. Do you think Millie is like, God damn it, I got fooled to get another door with a dark secret behind it? You know, fool me once. Also, I think I told you this, but the Amanda Seyfried character was not supposed to be hot. Excuse me? They stole a role from a character actor in casting her, which is a typical Hollywood shit, of course, but I liked the Housemaid because it is a glamorous woman having nervous breakdowns movie. It is cut from the cloth of lifetime, which I think I have to just ingest a certain quota of lifetime adjacent content every single year as a woman. I don't know what it is. It just speaks to me. And I do think the twist was impressive. Well, I've fallen down a rabbit hole with the author, freedom McFadden, who wrote the Housemaid. I've subsequently learned she has published 15 books in the last four years, which, you know, is a sizable output for an author, if not for the fact that she is also a physician. She is a doctor whose pen name, this is her pen name. You want to talk about like mysterious pasts? I went deep, Chelsea, last night on Reddit. People believe this woman doesn't exist because they believe that, well, one, she writes under a pen name. So freedom McFadden is not her real name because she still practices medicine, although she gives very limited details about that. Can you imagine if your doctor is the woman that wrote the Housemaid? Well, because of that, people believe that she is wearing a wig in the few press appearances that she does and in her author's portrait to obscure who she really is, which is just sounding like a plot of one of her own movies. Yeah, totally. People don't believe that she's actually a doctor. People believe that she has like a whole collective of writers, because if you look at her output, like this year, she will be releasing three books. And she claims that she still practices one to two times a week. Well, I haven't read these books, so I can't speak to the quality. Maybe they suck and it's not surprising that she churns out three a year. New Every Alphabet Book Club episode? I read these like airport books sometimes and the ones that are really popular. And I'm often struck by how shitty the writing is. Well, we didn't even get into the AI controversy with, I believe it was called Shy Girl, where it was a self-published novel that did really well. It seems to be like vaguely 50 Shades of Grey-esque mixed with like a seemingly a very watered down Yorgo's Law, the most plot of like a girl that dates a dominant man that like turns her into a dog, like treats her like a dog 24 seven or something. Right, because she's into that? Hard to say. I haven't read it myself and I won't because it was supposed to be released in the US and people noticed. So a self-published then a UK publisher published it and then people started reading that. It was very big on book talk. Also, we should say Freedom McFadden is very big on book talk as well. That's where her audience really grew. And kudos to Sidney Sweeney for recognizing that. Like I still think Sidney Sweeney is a really impressive producer. Like she is able to identify material that does resonate with people. Siren, not so much. It probably does resonate with people. It just doesn't resonate with us. But anyway, people started to notice that a lot of the book felt like it was written by AI to which I say, isn't just bad writing, doesn't it feel like it's written by AI? Well, there's tropes with AI writing. The thing that fucks me up is, I don't know if this is still the case, but when people were getting failed in college because their papers had M dashes and they're like, M dash is a clear sign that you've used AI and it's like, I use M dashes all the time. And I write. I write these things. Yeah, like I overuse an M dash. I can't get enough. And I'm sure I improperly use them also. Frankly abuse it. But I am now at the point where I'm starting to notice AI writing a lot, especially in social content and stuff. Oh, yeah. Well, great. I'll actually watch The Housemaid 2. I will never watch Minecraft 2. But I think we should also say that it's not as if Kirsten Dunst isn't still getting cast in really good movies. She was in Civil War. She was in Power of the Dog. Obviously, these movies are few and far between. It's not like she's making like three movies a year like she was late 90s, early 2000s. Well, yeah, that's for a multitude of reasons. We don't have that studio ecosystem anymore. She's sort of aged out of those ingenue roles. I believe she said after doing Power of the Dog, all she was offered were scripts where she was a mother. And she basically waited until she got a good script that wasn't and that was Civil War. Oh, okay. So her loss is Chloe 70's gain. Yes. She's like, I will play a mother. Are you doing a true crime adaptation a few years after the person, the protagonist was convicted of this crime? And they live in a trailer park and there's a mother best friend role. I'm there. But Chloe 70 is still doing all of the art house shit also, but in more minor roles than Kirsten Dunst maybe would take. And also all of our pervert auteur fathers and grandfathers, it's harder and harder for them to find financing. Like as we know, there's been a John Waters project based on his book with Aubrey Plaza that just can't find financing. The next Todd Solon's film that Elizabeth Olsen was going to be the lead of can find financing. I mean, come on billionaires. Yeah, the John Waters thing is so upsetting. This is what I don't get. Like, I understand eat the rich, but more my issue or a part of my issue with the billionaire classes, they just have terrible taste. Like, yeah, unless you're like a Steve Jobs or something. And he's dead. Right. The ultra wealthy used to fund opera houses and railroads and libraries. Like to me, if I had fuck you money, it's like funding a John Waters film that you will never make your money back. Like that's having a piece of art on the wall. Right. And that's just what some like powerful gay should do just because it's the right thing to do. Ryan Murphy. Exactly. Every cell are you cold? Always. Guys, Lauren always has the AC on when we record and I'm constantly freezing. I cannot podcast under these conditions. Okay, here, why don't you take my Lola blanket? So much better. And wouldn't you know it? Lola blankets is this week's sponsor. Lola is the world's number one blanket crafted with ultra soft luxury faux fur and a signature four way stretch that sets it apart. When I'm at home, my wife likes to turn our house into a polar vortex where I'm constantly freezing. So anytime I'm prepping every outfit, I'm under my Lola blanket and I truly cannot imagine my life without it at this point. See, my favorite thing about Lola blankets is their machine washable double hem for durability and they stay flawless, meaning no pilling, no shedding, even after repeated washes. And I can attest to this as Morty has spit up spilled our coffees. Wait, you give your baby coffee? Okay, it was our coffees. And then his hand took the cup and spilled it off. I'm calling CPS. Our advertiser will love this. Let's just say a lot of liquids have been spilled on the Lola blankets. We put it in the wash and it always comes out as good as new. Lauren and I have the large blankets, but I think I may need to upgrade to the XL. Lola also makes weighted blankets, which are perfect for these increasingly spooky and stressful times. And Lola has over 20,000 five star reviews. And once you feel it, you'll know why. There's a reason it's called the world's number one blanket. We can attest the Lola blanket is next level. For a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola blanket products with code outfit at checkout. Just head to Lola blankets.com and use code outfit to get 40% off your order. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know that we sent you wrap yourself in luxury with Lola blankets. Oh, also, I wanted to talk to you about Elizabeth Perkins in The Housemade, which no one is talking about and her sassy white short hairstyle. She got the constant Zimmer and JFK Carolyn Bissette Love Story as a beloved character actress from the 90s and 2000s who's now been forced to be in a short wig in the in the mother role. I know. I really wish I saw Elizabeth Perkins more. And I was like, what was the last movie we even saw her in? It was Sharp Objects. Not that that was a movie, but she was in that. And that's the last thing I remember seeing her in. Also, something I want to mention, the husband, Amanda Seyferin's husband in The Housemade, giving the strongest Australian face and yet an American actor. I know you have facial blindness when it comes to men, but I have no memory of that character really. He looks like he could be a Hemsworth cousin or something. Totally, right. So I look forward to, I'm sure Bobby Cannavali being Kirsten Dunn's husband in this film. He seems like someone that would be cast in these movies. Oh, for sure. Okay, also, I love that multiple people sent me this deadline article, which is extremely niche. Do you want to explain this? Right. So deadline ran this article that just said Hollywood going backwards in quotes on representation as quote films about women having nervous breakdowns come back into fashion. Now, this is a Huey headline said by an even Huey-er person because this came at a series mania panel and was said by X Channel 4 drama boss and North Reed executive Caroline Hollick. Well, she's an executive at Channel 4, so she could be a them in the UK and a who in the United States. Okay. I mean, look, she did give us this banger of a quote, although we reject the premise of it. Yeah, she basically said that we're going backwards in terms of representation. She just went to a film festival where there were four or five films about women having nervous breakdowns. Thank God. Great. Sounds like we're going to have an amazing fall here at the Every Outfit podcast. I know. And look, the feminist critique has always been that these movies glamorize female suffering and mental illness and that mental illness isn't actually glamorous and that additionally, a lot of this suffering is often filtered through the male gaze in a way that is unfortunate. But let us have our fun. I know. Let us have our fun. Well, it's also that sometimes these movies kind of gloss over the societal issues that may contribute to these breakdowns and make it seem like these bitches are just crazy for no reason kind of, but you can do both. It is possible. That's why people still talk about John Dealman all the time. Well, I just want to know what in this woman's mind is the correct percentage? Like, how many women having nervous breakdowns can we have? Like, do we need more women as astronauts? Women in the C-suite movies? Actually, did we ever get a movie about that female astronaut that like stalked that woman and shitted adult diapers? Wasn't there a Natalie Portman film that came and went that was heavily believed was based on this woman? I don't remember that, but we should watch it if there was one. Yes, Lucy in the Sky, it came out in 2019. I love that when you Google search it. The second search result is IMDB. And it's just the thumbnail image is a poster for Vox Lux. Yes, okay. The film stars Natalie Portman as astronaut Lucy Cola loosely based on the life of the real life NASA astronaut Lisa Nowak. Did she wear adult diapers in the film, though? Oh boy. Can someone just tell us if she does all watch the movie? Oh, okay. Here we go. Wikipedia controversy. In November 2018, retired astronaut Marsha Ivins, who flew five space missions, criticized the premise of Lucy in the Sky, denying the existence of a quote long standing idea that says astronauts begin to lose their grip on reality after being in space for an extended period of time. Following its premiere at the 2019 Toronto International Film Festival, the film faced additional criticism from multiple media outlets, some of which jokingly noted the omission of more salacious elements from Lisa Nowak's real life case, most notably her alleged use of adult diapers to avoid bathroom breaks during her journey. Wow. Okay, so we're boycotting. You know, Chela, that's probably why we never ended up seeing that movie. If there's no adult diapers, it's not for me. I want to see Natalie Portman go into a ride aid and buy the adult diapers. You know what, maybe this X Channel 4 boss has a point. Maybe we are setting women back by wanting films where they're in adult diapers. But anyway, thank you to everyone that sent us this. It was nice to feel seen. Yeah, it's nice to know what people really think about you. You can tell the type of person you are through, not by your actions, but what DMs you get from other people, of what stories they think you might be interested in. Okay, so the final episode of Love Story happened. What did you think? I find myself asking, was this a good season of Love Story? It's the first season of a planned anthology series, but I think it was great up until the end. Really? It lost me in the last couple of episodes a bit. I still love being in the world. I'm so happy to watch this show regardless of the quality of the episode, because it's just so escapist and fab. But I don't know, for me, the last couple of episodes were the weakest of the show. I agree with you. It's sort of like after they got married, which is the last episode that we discussed, it kind of felt rudderless. I've been listening to the audiobook of Once Upon a Time by Elizabeth Beller, who the series is allegedly inspired by this book. I've been listening to it as these episodes have been happening. I just feel like the show doesn't really give you a sense of who Carolyn Beset Kennedy was. It just feels like the arc of her is this cool girl whose edges got kind of softened or rounded after marrying Kennedy. It's just like a lot of lip-biting and being upset about the paparazzi. Look, I mean, all of episode eight is essentially just a glamorous woman having a nervous breakdown in a fabulous apartment. But in listening to this audiobook, there are, I mean, obviously a book is going to give you much more of a breath of a real person than a movie, let alone a limited series. But the things that Connor Hines chose to omit, I find interesting. Because in the book, and I encourage anyone who wants to get a better sense of John and Carolyn's love story, Carolyn Beset as the woman should read or listen to the audiobook, because after they got married, there are all of these anecdotes in the book about not just the paparazzi, but how the world treated her differently and the world of New York. There are several incidents that are explained in the book where because Carolyn was famous, people would just act out in front of her to try to get her attention. And one such incident is at a Ralph Lauren store in Tribeca where she was shopping and a saleswoman was helping her, showing her some jewelry, and two girls walked into the shop, recognized Carolyn, and started taunting the saleswoman of like, Hey, can you get this in our size? And she's like, Sorry, I'm helping someone. I can't leave the jewelry unattended. And they started verbally harassing the sales associate to the point where Carolyn Beset left the store and the saleswoman thought that she had upset Carolyn. When in actuality, Carolyn realized that her presence was making this woman's life worse. So she decided to leave and send this woman flowers the day afterwards. And I feel like if one or two of those kinds of incidents beyond the paparazzi are in addition to the onslaught of the paparazzi attention, would have explained why she just became a hermit as we see in episode eight. Right. But like, she wasn't actually a hermit. I'm sure she spent a lot of time in her apartment, but the thing that drove me crazy about the penultimate episode, which was like, where their marriage really broke down. It was a lot of just like dramatic scenes with them in the apartment. She alludes to going to Gianni Versace's funeral. And it's like, don't remind me of something that would be more interesting than what I'm currently watching. Because that was the episode that was about Princess Diana's death and all of that. But when you look back at that photo from Gianni's funeral, she's in the second row. She's in the same row as Carl Lagerfeld and Andre Leontali. She's in back of Princess Diana and staying. And that photo really does speak to her fame level at that time. It wasn't like she was just alone in her apartment. She was rubbing shoulders with the cultural elite constantly. Yeah. And something that the book makes clear is that I don't think the series makes as clearly is this idea that she knew that whatever her next move was, it had to be significant because all eyes were on her. Also, she died when she was only 34. She married him when he was 30. She leaves Calvin Klein. It's only natural, even if she wasn't married to JFK Jr., that you would be looking to make moves when it comes to your job, whether she wanted to get into PR. Another thing that I find really glaringly missing from the series is, and it is hinted at, but Anthony Raddwell's cancer and also his marriage to Carol Raddwell, who was not featured in the series at all, who was talking to Carolyn and this is talked about in the book, that Carolyn was thinking about going back to college or making documentary films with Carol Raddwell. And this is a whole interior life we never see in the series. But we understand why that was admitted. The Carol Raddwell stuff for sure, but it's hinted at that Anthony Raddwell has cancer, but I mean, it's not featured at all in the penultimate or the last episode of how much JFK Jr. was suffering. Allegedly, he was writing a eulogy for Anthony Raddwell. Anthony Raddwell passed away weeks after JFK Jr. died. JFK Jr. and Carolyn and her sister passed away. So I don't know. I mean, maybe too heavy handed, but John writing a eulogy for his best friend and cousin, I think would have been a poignant scene. And also Carolyn was very involved in Anthony's care. She more comes off to me as a brat who couldn't handle the attention when really everyone that spoke about her, spoke about how kind she was and how she really thought of other people. And that's not really represented in the series at all. Well, also, us as the viewer, we kind of are like, girl, can you please leave the apartment because we would like to see something fabulous happen. And we got more of that at the beginning of the series, certainly, then at the end. But for me, my problem with the finale was more the way that it was structured because it was like the first third was about their marital issues, their couples therapy, where she has this session where she's like, I have a dream that I'm Jackie in the pink Chanel suit, except for it's me, that's the one getting murdered like the most heavy handed dream a person could have in the world of this show. That was egregious and so unnecessary. And as far as I understand, not something that Carolyn ever said. No, and for me, it takes me out of the world of the show because it's so like outrageous and on the nose and kind of unbelievable. Yes. I think also for as exploitative as the family has said, the series is, they really do treat the circumstances around their deaths with kid gloves. There's no mention of the fact that potentially, probably JFK Jr. spent his last night with an ex-girlfriend by the name of Julie Baker, that he was not, you know, I believe a lawyer says this to Ed before Constance Zimmer comes into the room when they're negotiating what to do with the funerals about like he was an instrument rated, he was only visually trained. He was completely culpable with this plane crash. Absolutely. He didn't have the training that was required to understand the navigational equipment. He decided to fly a plane relying entirely on sight at night and hazardous weather conditions because as I recall, he wasn't aware of the weather. He didn't check it, you know, something to that effect. He didn't file a flight log. He declined his flight instructor's offer to fly out with them on the plane that night. Why that was emitted, I really have no idea. It seems as if they want to make JFK Jr. seem less responsible for this accident, which of course was not intentional, but he is very much responsible. Yeah, I believe in the very first episode because if you remember, the first episode takes place, it begins with the day of their deaths and she does when Caroline arrives at the airport, she goes, where's, what's his name, whatever, Josh. And he's like, oh, you know, I said I was fine. Right. Okay, so they did address that. They did, but it's all in kind of thrown away dialogue. Well, there's also the fact that he had just had that boot removed, I think the day before. Very close to, but I know you've spoken about your issue with the structure of this episode, but I think what makes this episode great is Grace Gummer and Constance Zimmer's performances. Oh, for sure. Speaking of cinematic portrayals of female suffering, like these performances are tens across the board and there will be Emmy nominations for sure. If not wins. Yeah. That was the thing is I could not watch the last episode for the longest time, because as soon as it aired, there were edits on TikTok and they had the edit of Grace Gummer as Caroline sobbing in her husband's arms of like, I can't do this again. And you can't help but think about the fact that you just buried her daughter and it's horrible. Yeah, I started crying. I was like, I can't do this episode just yet. Yeah, that was great. But again, that part of the episode, which was definitely the strongest part of the episode, this sort of epilogue part with the family, to me, just felt very disconnected with the rest of the episode. Because again, it's like the beginning is the marriage stuff, the middle is the flight, which is handled in this borderline romantic way, which, you know, it's a really tricky thing. I don't think that this necessarily needed a full on gratuitous plane crash scene. But I think it needed something to convey how fucked up and violent their deaths actually was, even if it's just a shot of the crashed plane or something, because it kind of makes it seem like John and Caroline are having this romantic flight and they want to repair their relationship and they hit some mild turbulence and that's it. Yeah. And also in that scene that I was referencing earlier, where the lawyer is explaining that he got disoriented, it happens to many pilots. I forget who asked, like, did they feel anything? It's like they probably didn't. And it's like, that's not true. I mean, he was reportedly found cut in half and they never found the second half of his body. Yeah, they never found his legs. Also, apparently, like when a plane goes into what is called a graveyard spiral, it lasts for a while. Like it probably was like a minute where they knew they were going to die and the plane was just going down. Right. And the G-Force, you would have felt like you were already dying is what an article I read described it as, which I understand not going there to not be gratuitous, but of course. But other than these outstanding performances by Grace Gummer and Constan Zimmer and the epilogue about the grief going through the families, it just, I don't know, it left me with a hollow feeling. Well, it's also glossing over the fact that, you know, Caroline and Lauren's mom sued JFK Jr.'s estate for wrongful death because she could prove that he was responsible for their deaths. And she was reportedly awarded $50 million, which was reported in the press at the time. That figure was never confirmed. But that's because he was responsible. And his overconfidence and his negligence is ultimately what led to these two women dying that were not that their jobs fucking matter, but kind of at the top of their game. Lauren was like a VP at Morgan Stanley or something? Yeah, in her 30s, just sort of unheard of. They hate to see a girl boss winning. A Kennedy? Yeah. They like to lobotomize and I know, leave people to die and submerge vehicles. So this is what I've been thinking about. If JFK Jr. and Caroline and Lauren, if they had all survived that airplane crash, what would have JFK Jr.'s legacy been? Beyond would his marriage to Caroline have lasted or not? Another thing that I found interesting, that is described in the book, that would have been interesting in the series is, right, because you have people that said they were on the brink of divorce, and then you have people who said they were in love and they would have never gotten divorced. And what this book gets into is this idea that it depended on literally the time of day in who JFK Jr. was talking to, because he did tell some people, like, that's it, our marriage is over, we're going to get divorced. And then he told other people, like, later that same day, like, I love her, that's my soulmates, which would have been an interesting tension to see, I think. Yeah, but they clearly wanted us to like both of the characters. Of course. And we see at the end of episode seven, him meeting with some Democratic DNC higher up person because he wants to get into politics, which I always found interesting that this series does highlight it, this idea that everyone was just like, oh, it's inevitable that he will get into politics. And I do wonder, there was a senator race going on in New York, it's the one that Hillary Clinton ultimately won, even if he had lived, it was too late for him to have gotten into that race, he was evidently eyeing the 2002 governor seat. And I think about if he had lived and became the governor of New York, certainly post 9 11, would he have been the one that gave a rousing speech at the 2004 DNC instead of Barack Obama? And would he have run for president in 2008 and been the hope and change candidate? Right. Or would he have gotten on another flight and crash two years later? Like, it's always interesting to me when people talk about those that have died tragically young, what they would have done with their life. And it's like, but they could have also just died in a freak accident a few years later as well. True. Can we talk about the revival of George magazine because of this series? Sure, I don't know about the revival, the renewed interest in the back issues, certainly. If anyone tries to revive this magazine, I'm going to jump off a building. Well, that's the thing is or was, was George magazine a good magazine? And I think the answer is no, great covers. It seemed like editorially, they could never find their footing. But I feel like it was the correct idea, this meeting of politics and pop culture. You certainly wouldn't have something speaking of the Obama administration, something like crooked media without George magazine. Absolutely not. But George magazine had influences, which in my mind were vanity fair in the celebrity focused covers and these sort of big budget shoots, but also spy magazine, which was a hugely influential political humor magazine that succeeded in doing a lot of stuff that George tried to do, but couldn't actually accomplish because, of course, JFK Jr. notoriously had this fear of burning bridges. And he also just wasn't a visionary editor in the way that Graden Carter and Kurt Anderson were. And speaking to that, in researching JFK Jr. around this time and George magazine, something he would not touch at all was commenting on maybe the biggest collision of politics and pop culture, which was the Bill Clinton affair with Monica Lewinsky. It's something that he would not write about, talk about, or feature in George magazine. So it's a little hard to have a political and pop culture magazine when you don't want to upset your buddy, Bill Clinton. Yeah, exactly. You can't worry about alienating the elites if you're trying to make a political magazine that is subversive in any way. And also it was thought that he didn't want to go there because of his father's own affair or alleged affair with Marilyn Monroe. But then it's like, as depicted in episode, I think seven, Carolyn is pissed off that Drew Barrymore is portrayed as Marilyn Monroe on the cover of George magazine. So he was very neither here nor there about that. Well, that was maybe the edgiest thing that George did in terms of the cover. Although again, it was a more sanitized version of something that Spy magazine had already done, which was make a Photoshop cover with Darryl Hannah in Jackie's pink Chanel suit with the jacket open and her bra exposed. Yeah, like that was a genius cover, which was that in 89 or 93? Was she dating JFK when that cover happened? Yeah, she would have been. But also I love how Spy just like openly made fun of George. Like I said this to you yesterday, but they did this incredible cover that was a parody of the Cindy Crawford George Washington George cover. But it was O.J. Simpson as Cindy as George Washington. And the cover line was by George, he's guilty. So good. I bought it on eBay yesterday for $10, a fraction of what the Cindy Crawford George is currently going for. Well, the Wall Street Journal last week ran this article of people who have a bunch of back issues of George and are now delighted that they are selling for, I mean, relative to George copies, let's say 10 years ago, a lot of money. But my favorite thing was the article starts with this guy who has 57 issues of George and someone has offered him $5,000 and he won't sell because he's waiting for a more accurate value that he feels that they're worth. That's insane. It's like, buddy, you've got two weeks to sell these. And I think $2,000 and even that's inflated pricing would be the max for 57 issues of George. If you really look, you can still buy certain ones of them individually for not that much money if you just like took the time. Obviously, the Cindy Crawford issue is super expensive now, but the other ones aren't really. Yeah, maybe more than they were six months ago, but not certainly not like hundreds of dollars just for a random ass issue with Barbara Walters on the cover. Did you buy that one as well? No, I think this whole George thing has made me realize that I'm just more of a spy person and I need to be buying more of those. Although I will say the entire archive of spy is publicly available and searchable on Google Books. So if you want to familiarize yourself with that magazine, you can. There you go. It's funny that spy magazine just openly mocked and hated JFK Jr. and kind of all the Kennedy's so much. And in reality, spy closed I think only a few months after before George magazine, which sort of chugged along for a few years after JFK Jr.'s death. Hachette, which was the publisher, bought JFK Jr. shares and then it folded in January 2001. Look, it's a fascinating pop culture relic from the time period, but let's not pretend it was better than it was. And also, there is a lot of better political reporting. Not that when I was a George reader, I exactly had the framework for this, but I just remember even the political stuff that I was reading in Vanity Fair back in the day being more interesting. Like they had better writers and stuff. Well, that's why I find this idea that JFK Jr. was preordained to get into politics so puzzling because if anything, George magazine proved how muddled his political point of view was. I don't even know if it's that. I just think that like running a magazine requires a very specific skill set that is not something that someone just has because they are in the upper echelons of society or they're clued in. Like it's like it's a job. Well, it's like when celebrities or former royals are just given a production deal at a streamer and it's like, you know, it does take a particular skill set to build a slate of successful projects between television and movies, just saying. Right. Yeah, I wonder how Meghan Markle's lifestyle brand is doing these days because, you know, she renamed it. It's no longer the Riviera orchard thing. She changed it to as ever, I think. No. I read somewhere, I don't know how true it is that at the Netflix office, they're just sort of handing Meghan Markle jams out to anyone who has a meeting. Like instead of water bottles, it's like, why don't you just take this apricot jam? That's incredibly funny and cool. I hope they're actually doing that. Okay, should we discuss ideas for Love Story season two? Because sure, who do you think it should be about? Well, season two has not been officially renewed. Connor Hines, who is still the showrunner, I do love that people continue to be like, how dare Ryan Murphy? Is he gay? Do we know? Yeah. Okay. But Connor Hines is hinted at season two being about Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, which gives credence to my thought that they were going to go international and that's why they took the American off American Love Story. And now it's just love story. Yeah, there's no need to keep the American because that bars them from ever doing like a Grace Kelly season. Very true. I don't know about you, Chelsea, but it was April Fools the other day and Twitter got my ass. I fucking hate April Fools day. It should be banned. Some Twitter account that was, I believe American Horror Story Zone published a fake trailer being like guys, season two is going to be about Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, which honestly, excellent subject matter for a season two. Oh, for sure. And similarly to love story has a fashion element to it. But wasn't that book that became an Amazon series Daisy Jones and the Sixth isn't that loosely based on Fleetwood Mac? Yeah, but it was fictionalized enough like they had a fully separate band with fake songs. It would be a very different vibe if they did a love story about Stevie and Lindsey, although I'm sure they'd never get the rights to the music, which maybe they could just get away with not ever showing them performing. I don't know, probably not because they were in a band together. It's just constantly them having just been on stage. I guess because I was thinking that another good choice would be Curtin Courtney. Oh, it's similarly tragic and dramatic. It's also set in the 90s, but it's a completely different side of the 90s. And again, you know, it has the fashion component, Curtin and Courtney, both incredibly influential. I could see a world where Gen Z starts to dress like Courtney. Actually, it's already happened. Did you see the cover of the new Olivia Rodrigo record? I did. Yeah. Very Courtney. I too was trying to think outside the box or at least different genres of couples. And I thought Vivian Westwood and Malcolm McLaren might be an interesting season. Oh, yes. A little more niche, but I feel like a lot of people know Vivian Westwood. A lot of people know about punk, but I really don't think many people know about their love story, and it could span many decades. That's a great idea. Thank you. I have other couples, but do you have more couples? Well, we have to go for the most obvious choice, apart from Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, which I feel is Brad and Angelina. That's interesting. If it's Brad and Angelina from like the filmy of Mr. and Mrs. Smith to the Plain Incident. Yeah, I think we're 20 years too early for that. I don't know. In the culture that we live in now, the nostalgia cycle is incredibly short. You do have a point with that. Even when the bling ring came out, I remember thinking like, isn't this a little soon to be doing this? Yeah, but maybe it's not. So I was thinking about other fields and what I consider great love stories that I think would make for a good season of television. And I thought, what about Jeff Koons and Chicholina? Another great idea. Because the youth needs to know about Chicholina and just personally the idea of the hard pivot of all of these TikTok girlies going from clean girl Carolyn Bissette to tits out Chicholina would be very fun for me to watch. Yeah, see, I think Kurt and Courtney would be fun for the same reason. We need some messiness. Even though by all accounts, Carolyn was kind of messy. And JFK Jr., I'm sorry, you're going to tell me that someone who was a party boy in the 80s and 90s never did coke? Okay. Yeah, he was doing coke. He was hooking up with sex workers. He was doing all of that. I have other ones, but it gets a little hoey. Cher and Rob Camilletti, aka Bagel Boy. Okay, far too hoey. No one's going to green light that. But I appreciate the thought process. Maybe Love Story season six. I honestly hope this goes on forever. Speaking of hoos, I don't follow a lot of fashion influencers, but I really love Amanda Murray, who I believe is a stylist. And she had a really great suggestion for season two of Love Story, which is Donna Karen and Steven Weiss, which obviously he's the who ear one in the duo. He was a sculptor that then ended up running her company for many years. But if you are not familiar with the lore of that relationship, I suggest you give it a Google because it is the most dramatic shit in the world. They basically like long story short, they had this long spanning affair when they were married to other people. Donna Karen got pregnant, had an abortion because she didn't know who the father was. And that was the year that abortion became legal. And then maybe a decade later, after both of them had gotten divorced, they got married. And then he started running her company with her until he died when he was like, pretty young. I feel like this could be amazing. And similarly to Love Story, similar office environment. For sure. A spin off about Calvin and Kelly Klein. I'd also be into that. Calvin deserves his own show for sure. Again, a subgenre I didn't know I needed, but I love, which is Alessandro Novello as fashion designers. Again, maybe the most worthwhile thing of Neon Demon is his impression of Tom Ford. Truly. Which it was announced that Tom Ford has wrapped filming of that Anne Rice, Kostrado adaptation. Great. Give it to me now. Can't wait to see Adele Act also. Yes. All right. Speaking of fashion and movies, we went out to the theaters and we saw Mark by Sophia. Yes, we watched this film in eerily close proximity to the cursed Zara. Well, that's how we know the Zara is cursed. Look, we are very fortunate being podcasters. You know, we get to have what I like to call a degenerate podcast lifestyle, which means we can see a movie in the middle of the day as quote research. But I was unprepared for the fact that it is spring break in Los Angeles. So the grove was packed and the movie theater was packed with children, although none of them were there to see Mark by Sophia. Look, one day you will be aware of when spring break is, but currently no. And I will be taking Morty to Mark by Sophia and not the Mario World movie. I was happy as a clam watching Mark by Sophia, but it is not a revealing documentary. It's more like the film equivalent of a mood board. I was going to say, and I don't mean to be reductive when I say this, but like this documentary could have been a podcast. However, like the archival footage is incredible, but to your point, it's a very down the middle documentary. And I think the hindrance is because Sophia Coppola is such a good friend of Mark Jacobs, because there are these moments where it's very esoteric and very inside where they're having a conversation with each other. But other than that, it's very like anyone could have directed this documentary. And it's like I needed it to be more one or the other. Like I would have been fine with them having an esoteric inside conversation that like you either get the references or you don't. I wish it was more esoteric. And I get it. It literally says in the title, it's Mark by Sophia, but I thought that Sophia would be more in the documentary. And she is, but there are these moments like where she talks about where they first met. And she goes, I had somehow seen the peri-ellis collection and I told my mom to bring me to a peri-ellis show. And then it goes into archival footage, but you actually don't hear about them ever meeting for the first time. No, this is a movie about Mark's inspirations, not about Mark's life. Right. And this documentary made me realize how little I know about Mark Jacobs. Like I knew he grew up in New York. I knew he had a very glamorous grandmother. But you get hints of it throughout the documentary where it's like, oh, I had no idea that his father was a WME agent who died very young. Well, we need to do a book club episode about Marine Callahan's book, Champagne Supernova. And yes, this is the same Marine Callahan who has recently been publishing a lot of articles on the Daily Mail, like the one that's like Carolyn Beset was a cokehead with a humiliation fetish. Oh, Jesus. Anyway, she wrote this book, the woman that looks like Meghan McCain. I've seen them the Daily Mail, her thumbnail. She wrote, unless there's a different Marine Callahan, I don't think so. Probably not. She wrote this book, which was extremely dishy, which was about Mark, Alexander McQueen, and Kate Moss. And what was revealed in this book about Mark's childhood was really, really dark, which was that his mother was so mentally ill and neglectful that social services had to step in. She was then institutionalized in a psychiatric facility. He went to live with his grandmother on the Upper West Side while his two other siblings were put into the foster care system. What? Yeah. And after that point, he didn't really have much of a relationship with his siblings. And the siblings have said that the grandmother controlled his life and kept him away from the rest of the family basically after that point. So again, very dramatic, very dark story, pretty relevant considering he's basically making doll clothes in this movie. It's so much about childhood, the collection that is the centerpiece of this film. Right. The documentary is centered around him putting together the Spring 2024 collection, also called The Doll Collection. And it's very clear to your earlier point about Sophia Coppola, if we got a Britney Spears film, it would be the sanitized version. This documentary is the sanitized version of Mark Jacobs' life. And again, it's marked by Sophia. It is very much a Sophia Coppola documentary. It has a piecing of a Sophia Coppola film. But I think what's interesting is the fact that Mark has had all of these struggles, his childhood. We know he's had this ongoing battle with addiction. We know that he's faced a lot of business difficulties over the years, which weren't addressed in this documentary. But I do think that it's interesting that as a designer, it's like he really does choose joy when it comes to making clothes. He's not someone like a Alexander McQueen that like while he has demons, he's not preoccupied with making work that is dark and challenging, which I think is interesting and I think is cool. Yeah, it's very clear that Sophia Coppola's preoccupation is how her longtime friend makes a collection, how he comes up with ideas. And that is, I would say the first half of the documentary that is the narrative force. And Mark talks a lot about how he wishes he was a designer like an Eve Celeron who can just, you know, in one night design an entire collection. But really, for him, he and his team muddle their way through a bunch of ideas. Maybe it comes from the fabric, maybe it comes from references, but there's no central idea that he has. And it's like, okay, we're going to move forward with that, which is so funny when you see the end results of most of his collections. No, it's completely shocking that when he goes into making a collection, he doesn't have a very clear picture of it's this meets this, which pretty much all of his collections are some approximation of that. I mean, this is like, I want to make women look like 1960s Barbie dolls. I love that there's no mention of dolls at all in this movie that, you know, he cites Alex Katz paintings and Diana Ross and Bob Fosse. A lot of Bob Fosse. But I find it interesting that there's no mention of the fact that the clothes were very much designed to look sort of oversized and exaggerated and overly simplified in the way that doll clothes are, just because they're so small and the way they fit on the body of a doll is like so highly specific. And he did such an incredible job of recreating that in this show. I think any fashion documentary always highlights something that I forget, which is just like the amount of decisions and how thought out every single detail down to the nail shape, the nail polish color, things that you wouldn't necessarily see even in detail shots or something that you wouldn't necessarily be paying attention to in detail shots. Yeah, he has his hand in everything. And I suppose because they lived it to them, the 1990s and what New York was like and that creative movement is not interesting to them to discuss in the documentary like obviously the gorilla X girl fashion show in 1994. But why was that included? Okay, so that's what I wanted to get into is that footage that at least we've seen a million times from MTV is yet again featured in this documentary. For those who don't know, Sophia Coppola, when she was dating Spike Jones, they produced an X girl fashion show on the streets of Soho as people were leaving a Mark Jacobs show. And they show this footage, they don't show the footage of the Mark Jacobs show that was happening. They don't even ask Mark Jacobs what he thought of that. Instead, it's Mark Jacobs talking about how great of a baby tea Kim Gordon made for X girl, which you could very easily tie this into his design work because his last collection he cited X girl as a inspiration for his collection. So it's like there's not even a like I liked this and this is what I designed. I also found it interesting that Eve Salerant came up repeatedly throughout this documentary. Mark has done entire collections based on specific Eve Salerant garments collections, whatever it's like, if you're going to bring him up, show me what you did to pay tribute to Eve Salerant. Like let's bring it back. He did do that with Vivian Westwood. He talked about how inspired he was by Westwood. They showed footage from the Westwood fashion show. But I feel like there were all of these things that just were brought up kind of randomly that could have tied back more into his work. And again, they have been friends for 30 years. So there are certain things that I'm sure are shorthand for them. But it doesn't really help when you're making a documentary about someone. And they're again, very Sophia Coppola-esque if you think about her film work. But even I think one of the most revealing things is the fact that he discusses that he was actually never fired from Periella's. He goes, but people just started saying that's why I like the story, but never finishes what happened at Periella's. He just goes like, yeah, I started designing a Vuitton in 97. And then I guess I was designing on my own for a couple of years anyway. And then it goes into this whole archival footage about his time at Vuitton, which is great to see, but it's bizarre having Sophia Coppola as an interviewer asking him like very naive questions about his time at Vuitton of like, so why did you start doing like graffiti on the bags? Yeah, I do think this documentary did do a good job. And I think had an agenda to convey the fact that Mark Jacobs built Louis Vuitton into what it is today. They referenced the sunglass collaboration with Pharrell back in the day. Pharrell, of course, now is the men's creative director of Louis Vuitton. And it does seem like Sophia wanted to sort of give him credit for what he did there. And did you know the story? I mean, we know that Victoria Beckham, from the Victoria Beckham documentary that she had a counterfeit Steven Sprouse of Vuitton speedy. But I didn't know that the executives of Vuitton just like, we're like, you can design that bag, but we're never manufacturing them. And it was because of counterfeiters that Vuitton decided to put those bags into production. That was the most revealing moment of this movie. I did not know that. That was fascinating. There's also, and again, I think it is because they have been friends for the last 30 years, but just no interrogation of the different versions of Mark over the years. Again, we see it in archival footage. But every time I see late 90s, early 90s Mark Jacobs, when he was just a nerd, it's like, oh, I know the best. I miss him. Sonic youth tea glasses. He has had so many eras, truly. And also, in terms of his design work, has evolved so drastically over the years. And that's something that's really fascinating about him. And I thought if there was going to be a theme or something that Sophia Coppola was interested in was how her friend went from being such a commercial designer, designing 12, 16 collections in a year, to now just designing one collection. And you could make the point that the spring 2024 doll collection is maybe the apex of his kind of esoteric fashion as art couture level collections. Unwearable. Yeah. But no. Yeah, I think the tension between art and commerce has always been a huge Mark Jacobs theme. And I would have liked to see that interrogated more certainly. Also, I wanted to mention, what was with the part that was just about Anna Swie? Not like they would interview her or have her in the documentary, but it was almost just like she exists, similarly to the X girl thing. Yeah, I mean, that is an important friendship. But yeah, you would think that they would be at like Cafe Jitann or something, all having a coffee. Again, I think that closed. Yeah, I know. It's really sad. But anyway, but you would think there would be a scene where it's all three of them, Roman Coppola behind the camera talking about what it was like in the 90s or 2000s. We needed other people in this movie. And also, I cannot believe we had been talking about Mark by Sophia for as long as we have been without talking about Unzipped, which it was clearly modeled after in a multitude of ways in the focus on the inspiration and the sort of film references and also in the framework around a designer creating a single collection. But in Unzipped, we had Paulie Mellon and Ingrid Sischke doing sit down interviews. Fussy finished. Fussy finished. We had friends of, you know, we had Cindy Crawford and Sandra Bernhard and Eartha Kitt. Like we needed some celebrities or some friends to just organically come into the world. Like I would love like if Anna Swie had just stopped by to look at what he was working on. Yeah, I mean, in Unzipped, you have the sequence where Linda Evangelista hates the shoes that she's been made to wear for the collections. Like you got to give me heels. Obviously, we have a different state of models, but like Alex Cassani was in that collection. Can we get a little little scene with her? Yeah, totally. Can we get Chloe Seventy to just come by and maybe give some insight about filming that Sonic Youth video? Like why isn't Kim Gordon literally in this movie? I guess a kind of framework for this documentary, because it is mentioned so many times, is the zeitgeisty grunge collection that as we learned didn't actually get him fired from Perialis. I guess the other revealing thing was the story behind the Mark Jacobs collection in the Sonic Youth video that he was so worried because the grunge collection had been so derided and Courtney Love hated him because of the grunge collection that he thought Sonic Youth was going to make fun of him. I would be thinking the exact same thing, because Sonic Youth is like a level of pretentious. I mean that in a complimentary way that transcends Courtney Love, certainly. But look, I'm glad that this documentary exists. I just think it is in sharp contrast to something like an unzipped, something like that four-part supermodel's documentary. I think this gets back to my original point of like, I needed it to be more esoteric where it's like you either, it's just the two of them having a conversation. That's why I said this documentary could have been a podcast. I far more enjoyed the interview that Romy Mars did with the two of them at Bookmark that's on the A24 YouTube channel because it's like you either get the references they're saying or they don't. At one point, they get on a tangent about JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bissette and Love Story. Romy Mars is obviously asking them about the series. And Sophia is asking her daughter, Romy, about, do you see a lot of guys dressed as JFK Jr. Then Mark Jacobs is like, don't you remember when we saw Carolyn and Nancy Boy, Donovan's band? And it's like, oh, I know that they're talking about Donovan Leach, who's Ioni Sky's brother who was married to Christie Hume. Ioni Sky briefly in the doc in archival footage. We actually got a little bit from Rachel Feinstein, which was like the closest to a friend of coming and talking about Mark and his work and their collaboration and stuff. Also, we can't have one question about the ad campaigns. The ad campaigns were so groundbreaking. Well, the ad campaigns are even Sophia's relationship with Mark and his fashion. She was in the first one. Yes, she was in the perfume ad. She wore him when she won her Oscar. There was that Vogue piece in like 2004 where they showed the photo in some montage of which there are many in this documentary. But it's like, can we talk about the two of you? Yeah, you did a collaboration with him when he was at Louis Vuitton. Do you still have that stuff? Let's go in your closet and fish it out. Also, sometimes you get little glimpses of things like they did one interview with him in his incredible Frank Lloyd Wright house the day after the show. It's like, take me around this house for fuck's sake. Because we kind of get one shot of like a hallway that looked fab, which is more than we've ever seen of the house apart from that one Gregory Crudston photo that was in Vogue. Yeah, and I don't know. Speaking to the startling lack of his personal life discussed in this documentary, I'm not sure if it's because Sophia knows Mark's husband personally that it's not of interest to her, but just like how that changed him and his design process. See, I don't even need that. I just need one scene of him coming into the studio for two seconds and giving him a little kiss and then leaving. We didn't get that in unzipped because I believe that film was made by Isaac Mizrahi's actual boyfriend at the time. He was too busy being behind the camera. But another thing that struck me when I'm thinking about this film in relation to unzipped is Mark by Sophia doesn't really capture the stress of designing a collection and holding a fashion show. There's no drama at all in this movie. I mean, again, quite like a Sophia Coppola film. The drama was basically when he wanted to use one kind of wall. Are you talking about the fabric, the conversation that reminded me of you and me? Yeah, you can relay this better than I can. It's a scene where, and we haven't talked enough about, and I always love this about fashion documentaries because fashion designers are treated as these monoliths, but there are so many people that make the collection possible. And so there is someone that is a part of the design studio who seems to be in charge of the fabric and fabrications. And she's trying to explain to Mark, well, which one do you want? If you want the double knit, and he's basically explaining, let's just order both. And she's like, yeah, right. But one might not come in time. And he's just sort of like, so. And you saw yourself in that girl? I saw myself in having conversations with you in that conversation. Yes. We have this ongoing joke where Lauren is always trying to manage my expectations. Like, she will start a sentence with, I'm just trying to manage your expectations. And when she does that, I know that she's fucking annoyed with me about something. So now she can't say it anymore. No, I can't. I say it in different ways. You're right. I say it in different ways now. You have to vary the language a little bit. We're just revealing that we have a very bitter tears of Petra Von Kant dynamic, actually. I mean, I hope it's not that dark. My God. Were you surprised? Am I Petra? And are you, who are you, her girlfriend or her like sad, like debased assistant that just gets like that one? I'm the assistant. Yeah. That bitch that's just like sketching in the corner, crying the whole time, watching this like dyke drama unfold. I'm like, do you like this fabric sample or this fabric sample? Okay, that is an abused woman, by the way. Just so you know. It is, it is not that bad. But I always want to make you happy just as these people that work for Mark Jacobs want to make him happy. Also, I was shocked at the reveal in the Sophia Mark criterion closet video that Sophia has never seen Petra Von Kant all the way through, which is like insane to me because there are hard fastbender movies to watch all the way through. But that is not one of them. I literally had that in my notes of what do you think about the fact that Sophia Coppola has never watched it top to bottom? It's completely shocking. As a filmmaker that also makes movies that look like fashion photographs, it's like mind boggling that she's never seen that movie all the way through. Wait, speaking of which, can we go back to that 824, Romy Mars interview, which is a touch of genius by 824 to have Sophia Coppola's Jen Alpha daughter interview both Mark Jacobs, I mean her godfather obviously, and her uncle and her own mother, which my favorite comments, I don't know if you went through the comments, but people were like, who is this girl? Why is she interviewing me? People are like, it's her daughter. But Romy Mars explaining all that jazz to Mark Jacobs as if he hasn't seen it a million times and the fact that Jessica Lang represents death. I loved that. And I think it's cool that she's seen all that jazz and that she's apparently written a song inspired by all that jazz, which I can't wait to listen to. But look, I don't want to be overly critical because this girl is a teenager. But the questions that she asked them that were framed around TikTok trends were like extremely disturbing to watch for me. A witnessing Sophia Coppola being subjected not just to these questions, but by her own daughter. Witnessing this girl, ask them questions that were clearly rooted in TikTok shit that Mark Jacobs especially has zero awareness of and he's trying to follow along. But I did like her making her mother aware that the phrase like, whose closet would you want to bling ring? That was great. Yeah. Mark said Pharrell and Sophia said Carline surf to Dead Zeal. Yes. Which perfect. I will say what upset me was watching Sophia explain to her own daughter who that woman was. But fair enough. Why would you know? And it is unfair of us to expect Romie Mars to carry on the Sophia Coppola lineage of cool. Like no one can be Sophia and not even her daughter. Well, as we've noted, there's the other one maybe. There's the other daughter that looks like more like Sophia Cosamina as I believe her name who doesn't even want to be in her own sister's TikToks. I think the funniest part to me that just illustrates how surreal Romie Mars's life must be is Sophia on camera reminding her daughter who loves Paris Hilton that it's like, you know, when you were a baby, I took you to her house and photographed you in her pink Bentley. And she's like, Oh, right. I love that. Also, I was watching it with Tat and she was like, why is she dressed like that talking about Romie Mars because she's wearing like some oversized camo Supreme hoodie. And it did occur to me that like with Gen Z fashion, like I feel like half of them are perpetually dressed like they're at the airport. Like it's like a 24 seven airport kind of look. Well, she says in the interview that I found fascinating that she's not very into fashion. Well, she's also wearing that Supreme hoodie because she's dating the son of James Jebya, who founded Supreme and they are the Nepo baby cultural elite power couple in New York right now. Okay. But anyway, that must be such a wild world to inhabit where it's like your mom is Sophia Coppola, your dad is Thomas Mars, your uncle is Mark Jacobs. And then your boyfriend's parents are James and Bianca Jebya. In what world? In Romy's world. And Romy Mars's world. I was trying to find that article I sent you because look, I'll take five marked by Sophia's. I think that's more our point of like, I wish this was a multi part series, because that would be interesting. Someone who is so close to someone kind of investigating their life and their career and appraising them in a different way. Totally. But a joy of this film was the amount of press that Sophia Coppola did for this and one of the pieces I was just trying to find it. But one was talking about her mom circle, which is Rachel Feinstein. Forget who else. It was like all major women. Okay. So yeah, it's Rachel Feinstein, Tamara Jenkins and Sarah's. Sarah's? I have no idea. And they all meted via Corota and they're all artists and they started getting together after dropping off their kids at school. And I don't know. These are my Gen X art icons. Sounds fabulous. Also, I feel like we've been maybe overly critical of Mark by Sophia considering we both enjoyed watching it. I think it just made us long for more. And also, I don't think we've given it enough credit for just how visually beautiful it is, whether it's the old fashion show footage that they're using, the clips from movies. The way that Sophia filmed the fashion show was actually really, really good and really unique in that it was mostly close ups of honestly, of the faces. You didn't even see that many clothes in the fashion show sequence, which kind of made it the opposite of unzipped because in unzipped, you don't really see the clothes until the fashion show sequence. Right. But in Mark by Sophia, it's like we've kind of seen all the clothes beforehand. So you don't need to see the final product. Yeah. Were you also surprised that one of the producers of this film, which I only learned during the credits is RJ Cutler, who made the September issue, which I found really odd that he has a producing credit on this. It's just kind of like why? Like I could see how he would be attached to a fashion project at a producer capacity because of the September issue, but this is a movie made by fashion insiders. Right. It's like he doesn't need to come on as a producer, so A24 will buy it. A24 put out. Yeah, so it has cred, you know? Yeah. A24 put out Sophia's last film. I don't get that at all. Before we sign off today, could we discuss our experience before the film, which was how short they've cut down the Nicole Kidman AMC ad? Oh my God. I had joked to you because if you've been to an AMC, there's literally 25 minutes of trailers, which is fine, although a lot of AI ads I was noticing in between the trailers. And then there's five minutes of AMC related commercials, whether it's like the Coca-Cola commercial or how great the Dolby system is or whatever. And I had joked to you of like, because this was going on for so long, I'm like, it's literally just going to be her saying Heartbreak feels good in a place like this. It was. It basically was. It has stripped all context out of, let alone that line. We don't even see her arriving at the theater anymore. You don't even know she's at an AMC. She could be anywhere. She could be at an Alamo Draft House. Truly. And the Heartbreak feels good at a place like this only makes sense with all of the lines that precede that, the part about laughing and crying and my God, whatever she says. Look, it's been so long since we've seen it. We can't even recite it by memory anymore. Also, what happened to the proposed sequel to this commercial? I think they just recut it and thought that that counted. And it doesn't. Let me tell you AMC, it doesn't. It doesn't count. And it also sucks because what really sucks is watching the one ad that you alluded to about like how crystal clear and precise the visuals are, which looks like shit and goes on forever. Yeah, it's not great. We are getting a 40X theater in the Grove, which I've only ever experienced 40X once and it was to see Alien Romulus. Yeah, that's the one that came out, the last one that came out. And I have to tell you, Tracy Romulus, Tracy Romulus, I have to tell you that I only learned afterwards that I guess everyone hates that Alien film, but I had the best time of my life. So I look forward to seeing the Housemaid 2 with you in 40X. Perfect. Can't wait. All right, guys. We'll be back next week. Bye. Bye.