Our Strange Relationship With Robots & What is Confidence? - SYSK Choice

Today on something you should know, a simple job interview question that could really trip you up if you're not prepared. Then robots, we like them, we relate to them. We sort of can't help ourselves. Let me put it this way. If you have a robot and it says to you, I love you, you're beautiful. The same parts of your brain light up when you hear those words as they would if you're significant other said them. Also, when was your last eye exam? And confidence? It's attractive. You'd probably like to have more of it. But we actually don't know exactly what it is. There is no consensus as to what confidence really looks like. If you think about it, it is in the eye of the beholder. So release yourself from the judgment of having everybody love you and everyone think you're confident by just being who you are. Feel this today on something you should know. You know, I'm a sucker for a good mystery. Like in the 1950s, a flight from New York to Minneapolis just disappeared over Lake Michigan. No wreckage? No answers. Or the de-it-love pass incident, a group of experienced hikers found dead under circumstances so strange people still debate what really happened. There's a podcast called Expedition Unknown from Discovery hosted by Josh Gates, and this is what he does. He doesn't just tell these stories. He goes there. He's hunted for priceless artifacts stolen by the Nazis in World War II. He's traced the final flight of a pilot who vanished mid-mission and searched the great lakes for a ship that disappeared without a trace. If you love the unanswered questions of history, you know, the stuff that makes you lean in. You're going to love this. Travel the globe with Josh Gates as he investigates humanity's greatest feats and most iconic legends. Listen to Expedition Unknown wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with my carothers. Out of the literally millions, millions of podcasts you could be listening to right now, I am so happy you have chosen to listen to this one. Something you should know. This episode is publishing in January and that's the time of year. Many people look for a new job. And if you're looking for a new job and you get to the point of going in for an interview, there is a really common question you are likely to be asked that trips up a lot of people. And the question is, why should I hire you? It's one of the most predictable questions in a job interview and far too many applicants aren't prepared for it. Perhaps they have spent time rehearsing where they'll be in five years or what superpowers they would like to possess. That's why the career experts at Forbes magazine consider this relatively easy question. Why should I hire you to be one of the most difficult? If you stumble or stutter your way through the answer to that question, you are really hurting your chances of getting that job. So be sure to review the job description carefully and have a really good answer to that question. Why should I hire you? And that is something you should know. As you may have noticed, more and more robots are becoming part of our lives. If you have a rhombovacum cleaner or an Alexa, you have a robot. And it's interesting how we humans treat robots. I mean, think about it. If you have an Alexa speaker and Alexa is a robot, have you ever thanked her? You know you ask her the weather forecast or ask her to set a timer and she does, and you thank her. Lots of people do. But why? She's just a machine. While that is part of this problem, as you're about to hear, human beings are inclined to relate to and treat robots as people. And human beings are likely to defer to robots and assume they're smarter than a human. I know it sounds weird, which is why you need to listen to Eve Herald. She is an award-winning science writer and consultant in the scientific and medical world, and she's author of a book called Robots and the People Who Love Them, holding on to our humanity in an age of social robots. I eat welcome to something you should know. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. So I remember always being very interested in robots as a kid. There's something about interacting with a machine in a way that treats them like a human almost. And that's because we're wired. We're hardwired to be social creatures. And we have unconscious responses to anything that looks and sounds and moves and seems almost human or almost alive. On top of that, we also have a strong tendency to anthropomorphize anything that we interact with. So yeah, I mean, it's kind of intrinsic to who we are. But it does seem weird to some extent to want to talk to a machine as if it were a person. There are plenty of people to talk to. And yet we're fascinated by this idea of treating some machines like humans. It is fascinating. Fascinating and sometimes scary. Yeah. You know, as you're probably aware of the uncanny valley effect where people become very uncomfortable when robots enter a certain zone. And that is characterized by hyper realism with glitches and problems that crop up so that something seems almost real, almost human without quite passing that last hurdle of perfection. And then the wires in our brains get crossed. And it makes us it's a disturbing feeling. It brings up images of things like zombies and undead and other things that have been immortalized in the media. But it's an uncomfortable feeling and it can put us off from dealing with certain robots. In fact, studies have been done on this and roboticists are really trying hard to avoid the uncanny valley because they want their social robots to be a consumer item and they want them to be widely adopted. So somehow we have to get around that problem. We want them to be realistic and human like up to a point. But if they're not absolutely a thousand percent perfect, then they disturb us. And it's just a strange psychological syndrome that's very common. But it would seem that that's always going to be the case because no matter how much human like you make a robot, I still know you're a robot. Well let's hope you do. I guess it's really easy, alarmingly easy for robots to convince us that they have an inner life and that they're actually conscious and alive. And multiple studies have been done. It sounds so counterproductive, it's counterintuitive. It doesn't seem that we like to think of ourselves as rational beings who are always have a firm grip on what's real and what's not real. But studies have been done with people of all ages, of all walks of life, both genders, interacting with robots and finding that these robots are able to push their emotional buttons. And there is actual confusion in the mind about whether they're alive or dead, whether they're conscious or not conscious, whether they're a living being or just a machine. These things get mixed up in our minds alarmingly easily. Give me an example or two of a robot that I would think was human like or that has a life because I can't think of one. So would you tell me one? There are a couple of robots that I've seen that are really quite ery. One of them is called Sophia. It's made by Hanson robots. Sophia is a hyper-realistic robot and she has like all these facial expressions that her face is very animated all the time and it's over the top. So to me it's creepy. But there are people who just absolutely are crazy about Sophia. In fact, she became the first robot to receive citizenship. She's a citizen of Saudi Arabia now. And Sophia exists as an experiment or does Sophia actually perform something useful? She's an experiment. She's a prototype at this point. So she shows up at tech conventions and shows where people are able to get a sense of when Hanson robotics wants to roll out their latest product. They love to use Sophia because she's captivating. When she's talking you cannot not look at her. They're very compelling and I think most people find them, like I said, much more compelling than we would like to think that we would fall for ourselves. And these are educated people. These are people from all walks of life. There's something about the combination of movement, language, eye contact, facial expression that very easily creates an illusion, a powerful illusion of life to us. And our brains have a hard time distinguishing between that and reality. So are there actually robots? I mean real robots, not just machines that do a task, but robots that I would think of as a robot or is it all still very experimental? We actually have robots on the market that are pretty abled for things like teaching and childcare, elder care, companionship. They can do rudimentary things around the house. Like, you know, if you have an older person, they can fetch them. They're medicine with a glass of water, put the glass of water back where it belongs, things like that. We have robots that are pretty abled. I think more so than what most people realize is going on out there. What needs to happen is that they need, the price needs to come down for them to be widely implemented. But I think that's coming to, I think that's on the way, you know, people are slowly getting used to Alexa to all kinds of smart devices. I think they're going to be embraced. Well, I think of Alexa kind of like a robot. And in the sense that, you know, you tell it to do whatever it can do in its power. I mean, it can't vacuum your rug, but you know, it can play a song or it can set a time or whatever. And I find, you know, sometimes I think Alexa and I thought, well, what am I think? It's just a box. But people do all the time. Oh, they do all the time. People even think they're runebus. They tell them you did a good job, runebus. You know, it's just part of human psychology. You know, there's certain things that we are just simply hardwired for. You know, anthropomorphism is one. You know, you know, being fooled by something that, let me put it this way. If you have a robot and it says to you, I love you. You're beautiful. The same parts of your brain light up when you hear those words from a robot as they would if you're significant other said them. So our brains, our nervous system, it's all something that plays into this and which is a little bit scary because it's a little bit nefarious when you think about it. You know, we're kind of having our hardwiring used against us by commercial forces. That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that they'll be extremely easy for us to operate because there's, it comes so natural to us. Well, that certainly brings up some interesting possibilities I want to ask you about. I'm speaking with Eve Herald. She is author of a book, Robots and the People Who Love Them, holding on to our humanity in an age of social robots. With the Regency era, you might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place, whereas the time when Jane Austen wrote her books. The Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. Vulgar history's new season is all about the Regency era, the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal. Listen to Vulgar history, Regency era, wherever you get podcasts. With Bravo drama, pop culture chaos, and honest takes are your love language, you'll want all about Teri H. Podcasts in your feed. Hosted by Roxanne and Chantal, this show breaks down Real Housewives reality TV and the moments everyone's group chat is arguing about. Roxanne's been spilling Bravo T since 2010, and yes, we've interviewed Housewives royalty like Countess Lewan and Teresa Judais. Smart recaps, insider energy, and zero fluff. Listen to all about Teri H. Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to new episodes weekly. So Eve, if we humans are so easily fooled into thinking that robots have emotions and robots have intelligence, you could certainly imagine one day going into a store and buying a robot husband or wife that has all you want in a partner and none of what you don't want. This is what is being worked on right now. These social robots go way beyond all that. They learn the way a child learns, so they learn an association with you. They reflect back to you your taste, your preferences. They remember everything you tell them. They get to know you better than you know yourself perhaps. And it's a little overwhelming to think about it, but we can be served by robots in a very consistent manner. They'll cater to us in a way that no human partner ever could, which is where the danger lies. Because I'm concerned about people replacing the primary relationships in their lives, even their friends, you know, with robots because robots could become the path of least resistance. What happens when you get a robot that has all the good and none of the bad of a maze state? It kind of devalues human relationships. Why should I hang out with you when you do things that annoy me when I can hang out with a robot that does everything right? That's why I write a lot about, you know, the dividing line and maintaining a really firm grip on what's real and what's not real. Because ultimately robot relationships are not going to give you, they're not going to make you grow. They're not going to truly make you flourish as a human being. In fact, studies have shown that when people use them too much, they're real social skills atrophy. So they actually become less connected, more alienated and potentially more lonely. So this is something we really need to pay attention to as a cultural phenomenon. You know, as I think about it, when you deal with a robot, not that I do that very often, I don't think, but there is this kind of default that you think the robot is really smart, that probably smarter than you are, that there's this assumption you make that you're dealing with a superior thinker, yeah? You are absolutely right, Michael. This has been demonstrated in multiple studies. People tend to overestimate the intelligence of robots and underestimate their own intelligence. And by that, I mean, when you put them in a group and of people with one robot in the group and they ask a simple question and people go around the room and give their answer to the question, they're mostly correct because it's a simple question. And then the robot gives an incorrect answer and then 80% of those people change their answer to match the answer of the robot because we really overestimate, we put a very high value on a certain type of intelligence in this day and age and it's computational intelligence that really impresses us and that robot's really excellent. But they don't have emotional intelligence. They don't have creative intelligence. They don't have moral intelligence and the whole gamut of the different types of intelligence that human beings have. So yes, we do overestimate them and people are influenced by them. And I think this is eventually going to percolate through society to the point where the culture changes somewhat. What is the, this is difficult to explain, I guess. What is the technology or what is it that has allowed Sophia to seem human? Because when you look back at all the robots that most of us know from TV and movies and whatnot, they look like robots, they talk like robots, they're robots. But how is it that Sophia and other types of robots like that can be so human-like? Well, new materials have been invented in recent years. There's a material called flubber and it's a flexible material that's used in like Sophia's face, for example. That's got, it's electrically controlled and it's got wiring that in certain ways it simulates human musculature. And so the eyes blink, the eyes dart back and forth, the mouth moves, the eyebrows move, the materials are just becoming so much more lifelike. And there's all kinds of materials now that just embodies of robots that make them flexible and soft as opposed to hard metal. Now, don't get me wrong. There's plenty of plastic and metal robots out there and they're on the market now. One of them is called pepper. Pepper can teach, entertain and watch over children. It can run programs that are designed to help children with autism. It can do all kinds of different kinds of therapy. It can do cognitive behavioral therapy for people who have kind of the crab grass of mental illnesses, anxiety and depression, things like that. So you put these programs together with flexible, movable animated materials and it really creates an illusion. But it does seem pretty benign and rather useful that we've got robots that can help care for the elderly or watch children or teach autistic kids. Is there a concern there or is that just the positive and then the negative comes with that? Yeah, it's kind of the latter thing. Yes, they do amazing things and really, I'm amazed. You can disable people. They'll be the big winners here, elderly people, children. But the problem comes in with the fact that they're connected to the internet. They, scientists at MIT, not so long ago, created a robot that they claim became psychotic because of material that it found on the dark web. While your child is being taught by a robotic tutor, that tutor, yes, it's getting all kinds of great programs and stuff and it's, you know, amassing a lot of knowledge and it has a lot of uses. It's also subject to whatever the latest, you know, crazy, you know, mental spasm is out there on the internet that it's just absorbing because these robots, and it's the same with generative AI. As you know, generative AI is trained on information from the internet and not all of that information is benign, not all of it is true. These bots and these robots don't have the capacity to discern whether something is true or untrue. So, and they don't truly understand human language. They seem like they do. They sound like they do, but they're just coming up with patterns and words that fit together. You know, they don't understand, you know, what they're actually saying to you, but they're programmed to make it sound realistic and natural. Are there any other examples you can think of of robots being used that, you know, are real robots? There's some robots in Japan that are doing things like working in a, in museums and they're working as museum guides and they're highly life-like and realistic. They're equipped with all kinds of interesting knowledge about the objects in the museum and they're very knowledgeable. There are things like that on the horizon. They're actually, it's happening in some parts of the world, not here quite yet. You know, there are uses of these robots that I think are really intriguing and fun and engaging, you know, and offer some valuable services. I also am really looking forward to caregiving robots that get very, very able. And this is close. This is some close technology that's coming down the pike soon. You know, robots that can lift a person out of the bed and put them in a wheelchair and back again that can, you know, bathe people that can feed them, that can do this, that can set, that can address some of the shortages we have of caregivers. You know, we have a terrible shortage of caregivers. You know, I just hope we can, you know, be conscious and aware as we go forward on this and try to try to circumvent some of the problems that are predictable and be able to respond to the ones that are not predictable that suddenly emerge. Well, all of what you're talking about, about robots and it's a little unsettling and, you know, it's not, and it's not so far off in the future. I mean, it's starting to unfold now and so we won't have long to see how this plays out. Eve Herald has been my guest. She is an award-winning science writer and consultant. She's author of a book called Robots and the People Who Love Them holding on to our humanity in an age of social robots. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on today. Thanks, Eve. Thanks so much, Michael. Good to talk to you. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award-winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. We talk about things like sex, ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the Longest Shortest Time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at www.LongestShortestTime.com Confidence It's a commodity we certainly admire in those people who seem to have it. And it's something a lot of us wish we could have more of. So what is confidence? Are you born with it? Do you acquire it? Why do some people seem to be brimming over with confidence while others feel such a lack of it? Here to talk about confidence in a whole new way is Viv Grosskup. She is a writer, comedian, and an executive coach, and she is author of a book called Happy High Status, How to Effortlessly Be Confident. Hi, Viv. Welcome to something you should know. Thrilled to be here. It's lovely to be on your show. Thank you for having me. So I think people think about confidence a lot because we've all been in situations where we have been confident, you know, maybe with your kids or in a group where you feel like you know what you're talking about and you have a lot of confidence. And yet we've all been in situations where the confidence just gets sucked right out of us. I think it's the most fundamental human fear to be afraid of the judgment of others. You know, it goes way back to the times when we were living in caves and afraid for our lives if we were separated from the tribe. So there's always this really strong instinct in us to fit in with people, to do the right thing, to use, usefully what we call the social editor. It's the part of us that kicks in anytime between the age of three and seven years old where we learn that we need to behave in certain ways, say certain things, be kind, not just do whatever we feel like doing. You know, when children are very young, they can often say things that are rude or hurtful without meaning to, just because they have no filter. But then as we get older and we have this social editor that kicks in, we learn that we have to be cautious around other people. And sometimes we can over develop that and it really affects our confidence because then we're thinking too much about what other people think of us and not enough about what we can bring to the world. So it's about having that very measured confidence that is strong enough in the social editor to show that you care about people, but not so strong that you're always fearing other people's judgment. Well, it's interesting what you said about, you know, we overthink this whole idea of what other people are thinking about us. When in fact, people aren't thinking about us at all, they're thinking about them, they're thinking about what I think of them, they're not thinking about what a jerk or a fraud I am. Yeah, totally. I mean, this is the really ironic thing is that when we talk about this, we all recognize it, we all know it. And everybody would agree with what you've just said, but at the same time, it's very counterintuitive. We sort of contradict ourselves in that we know this to be true, that we're not thinking about other people all of the time. We're often worried about ourselves. And yet we believe at the same time that everyone is thinking about us. It's always, I think the most useful thing and it's something that I learned through moving from being a journalist to a stand up comedian is that in the moments when you think everyone's thinking about you and of course you need to think that when you're on stage, it's the most useful thing to turn it back around and think what can I do for them? How are they feeling? How can I look after them? And you do realise the more you put yourself out there, especially something really extreme like stand up, that other people they just don't actually really care about you at all in a good way. You know, so if you have a bad gig, everybody's going to have forgotten about it by the time the next act comes on and so you can forget about it the next day and get on and try again. The same way if you have an amazing thing happens to you, you know, if you really nail a presentation or you give a great pitch or you have a great night at stand up, it's not going to change the world. You know, we're always operating inside as if there are these really high stakes for everything. And actually in most of the time the stakes are much lower than we think, so we can afford to take the pressure off ourselves. Still though, there always are going to be those moments where, you know, you walk into a room and the confidence if you had any gets sucked out just instantly and you've kind of got that first aid situation, what do you do in that case where you really feel overwhelmed? The most obvious advice is breathing and of the many, many actors and performers and comedians that I've interviewed or been alongside, that is the obvious go to that they will talk about. Many performers and I'm talking about people who are household names, they do breathing exercises as a matter of routine. I was always really surprised to see that when I started out in stand up, I would be working alongside people who are hugely successful way, way ahead of me in the game and they would take themselves off to one side and be doing some kind of ritual, whether it was pacing or a meditation app, there are loads of really useful meditation apps that you can download and do two, three minute exercises or you can just think to yourself, as you take a breath in, you count to four and as you breathe out, you count to six. You can count in, six counts out, you can have a longer out breath and it will make you feel much more relaxed. Well I've certainly found that to be true that when you're in a situation where you're nervous and your confidence has been sucked out of you, that you start thinking all these negative thoughts and then you start thinking about the fact that you're thinking about them and it's this downward spiral and if you can just distract yourself and break that spiral, that cycle, it seems to help almost no matter what you do as long as it's not that. Anything that grounds you in your body and makes you more aware of your body than of your mind is the most useful thing because so often when we're nervous and we're afraid and we're under stress, we become completely obsessed with the racing thoughts in our mind and they seem like the most important thing and if we can really push our feet into the floor, even holding onto something can be really helpful whether it's an object or just feel it sounds really weird but feeling a cushion or anything that grounds you, reminds you of your body and using some breathing techniques alongside that. It sounds so obvious but I think so few people do it which is a shame because if you just take two minutes out of your day to do this breathing exercise, it just brings you back to the present moment and it's so useful. In many situations, I find that even if you're not feeling especially confident, it starts to come back after a while. It's always the first few seconds and I used to do stand up as well and it's, you know, those first few seconds on stage are always the, you know, you're getting your bearings, you're kind of seeing where everybody is and what they look like and that's like the toughest. What's, if there's any advice here of getting through that as effortlessly as possible so that the confidence does start to kick in? Yeah, it's really interesting. I hear that idea from a lot of people and I've experienced that myself. I also hear the opposite from people that some people find they start really strong and then suddenly five minutes in, the nerves start up and they think, oh, what am I doing here? Oh, I can't remember what I've just said. So this can work in a lot of different ways for different people. I think what's really useful is to have certain moments of what I call signposting. So signposting could be anything from a very strong start to a very strong finish and then in the middle, you're going to allow yourself a bit more leeway. But for example, if you know you're going to be really nervous at the beginning and it takes you a while to warm up, then make sure that you are word perfect for the first two, three sentences that you're going to say, whatever it is that you're doing. If you're introducing somebody or giving a speech, make sure that that is word perfect and non-negotiable and the same for your ending. Always know where you're going to finish up what your last few words are going to be. I think we've all walked into a room and seen somebody who's exuding confidence. But when I think about it, I don't know what it is exactly that makes me think that's a confident person. I see it, but I'm not sure what I'm seeing. What do you think? I think we believe we can identify confidence and there's a lot of really interesting psychological and academic research about this that is extremely inconclusive. And really there is no consensus as to what confidence really looks like. If you think about it, the way that I've come to think about it is to think that confidence is like beauty. It is in the eye of the beholder. But personally, I find that really liberating to remember how subjective this is. And I also take the lesson from comedy that comedy is completely subjective. You know, what one person finds funny, another person finds completely unfunny. But that is actually liberating because it means you can make it up for yourself except that you perhaps you're not going to be for everybody. But release yourself from the judgment of having everybody love you and everyone think you're confident by just being who you are. And the right people will be attracted to your confidence. And the wrong people, well, they didn't really matter in the first place. Yeah. Well, that's an interesting take on it. I have to think about that. Because there are some people that I look at, you know, like Barack Obama or George Clooney or they just, there's something about the way they carry themselves. And maybe it's because I know a little something about them and maybe they wouldn't if I didn't. There's just, there are some people that walk into a room that have something that people seem attracted to. But you say it's more subjective than that, but I, yeah, maybe. Well, you chose two perfect examples of incredibly confident, attractive, charismatic individuals who are absolutely hallmarked of confidence and what I would call happy, high status. But unbelievably, I know this is impossible to believe. But there are people who do not like George Clooney and there are people who do not like Barack Obama and who do not buy their version of confidence. Those people are in the minority, but that's still their view. So it's always inspiring for me to think that there is no one who can be for everyone. There is no one whose confidence reads to everyone. And therefore, it's okay to be in your own energy. And I think those two men in particular are attractive and confident to 99.9% of the population because they are very comfortable in their own energy. But haven't you ever known anybody? Because I can think of a couple of people who I didn't particularly like them, but I admired their confidence that they believe so much in themselves that they, they were able to carry that off. Not my cup of tea, but I could admire the confidence and say, yeah, that's good for you. Yeah, I think there are a lot of examples of people in politics for whom that is the case. You can always see a politician who does not have the same views as you, who you might disagree with completely, but who you can respect because they have a confident way of speaking. They put across their point well. They have authority. They have gravitas. They're worth listening to. Those people are incredibly valuable, even if you disagree with them, even if you inadvertently dislike them, because they help you to understand what you think about the world, how you feel. And if we can have more people around us who are confident in their views, you have great authority, but we don't necessarily agree with them on everything, it can help us to be more confident in articulating our views, which are different to theirs. So I completely agree with you that we can admire people's confidence without necessarily wanting to be exactly like them or relating to them necessarily. I think one of the great hallmarks of true confidence is being able to speak to people who disagree with you and still be heard. Well, you just mentioned authority, gravitas. And I know people who lack confidence will often say, I wish I had more of that. I see that in other people, and I wish I had more of that. Are those things you can get or are those side effects of something else that are benefits because you have it? Or can you just add that to your repertoire and if so, how do you do that? Those things are built in in certain scenarios, and for certain people, they have those things by virtue of the position that they occupy in society. There's a lot of work around status and entitlement that shows us certain people are more likely to be thought of in that way than others. So of course, certain people have a bit of a bounce in this regard. But I do believe anybody can get a flavour of those things and they can hone them in their own way without trying to be something that they're not. For example, the pace and speed and tone of your voice really dictate so much about how people regard you and how they think of you and how much they want to listen to you. The more you can keep your voice on an even tone to make sure that you're not talking at the end of the sentence, to make sure that it doesn't sound as if everything you're saying is a suggestion, to keep the voice on an even tone, to really show when you finish speaking, you can slow down to show that this is the end of what you have to say, to use pauses, to take your time, sometimes to soften your voice so that people have to lean in a little bit to listen to you, to really take your time to direct people's attention to you. And those are not things that you need to necessarily do in a way that is bombastic or super-confident or, you know, Beyoncé levels of glitter emanating from your every poor. Anybody can do these things. I'm thinking in particular of a speaker like Greta Turnberg, you know, the environmental campaigner, she has a very soft, slow, gentle, introverted, vulnerable way of speaking that's very unusual and I don't think would have existed 30 or 40 years ago in a public speaker. And yet she cuts through. I want Beyoncé level glitter emanating from my pores. I would love that. Well, it sounds like it emanates from your voice, you know, your voice is a really great example of gravitas and taking your time and waiting for people to come to you. There's something very powerful in that. It's something we all could do with a lot more. It's not racing, just being gentle, letting the points land, giving your ideas room to breathe. Talk about status, the importance of status in this whole conversation of confidence. Status or status, as we call it, it's both the same thing, is really about how you move through the world. It's not to be mistaken with social status. So social status is your business card, what kind of car you drive, what your title is at work, how much money you earn, what your position is, all of those trappings. That is social status. When I talk about happy high status, or I took about status in the area of performance or just being around people, I'm talking about how you look at people, how you talk to them, how you listen to them, the space that you make for them. And these are not things that really have anything to do with where you stand in society or how entitled you are or how much power you have. They're all to do with the energy that you bring into a room or into a conversation. So the more status you can give to others by listening to them, by making them feel heard, by making them feel seen, the more you will, you know, conversely, raise your own status. So there are many ways to be in a situation that don't have to be governed by these external ideas of social status that we have. What else when you talk to people? What else about confidence? Are people concerned about or confused about or wish they did better or knew more? I think people are very scared of the visible signs of the opposite of confidence. They're very scared of having a shaky voice, having shaky hands, sweating, flushing, anything that they think people can see visibly. These are the things that absolutely terrify people and some people, once they've had even a slight hint of that happening, they will completely avoid doing anything ever again. And it sort of breaks my heart when I hear about these things. Increasingly, I am seeing people overcome these things by allowing themselves to be how they are, whatever that looks like in front of others. And that I think is amazing. You know, you see it a lot on social media, of speakers who are not necessarily very confident. They're not necessarily very charismatic. They're absolutely not the sort of people who would have gone to drama school. And they're getting up there and they're doing it. And they're asking people to meet them where they are. And so the more we can see, I'm always encouraging bosses, you know, no matter what level of manager or boss they are, they need to do this in front of their staff. If you go red, if you shake, if you start to a little bit, if you stumble, whatever you do that makes you feel a bit embarrassed. Do it in front of people. It's incredibly inspiring for people to see that when you speak in front of people, when you could even be when you're at a party or when you go into any kind of encounter with other people, that you're not perfect, that you have flaws, but you're going to get out there and do it anyway. And I've heard from so many people in different walks of life that they've seen someone like this in their industry or in their area who isn't particularly brilliant at doing this and doesn't look particularly confident in a textbook way, but they've got up there and they've done it anyway. And it then inspires others to think, oh, actually, that person just comes across as real and natural and authentic. And it doesn't matter if they've gone totally red in the face or they've stumbled over their words. They've been able to say what they came here to say anyway. And they've said it in a way that is totally natural. So stopping, waiting to be perfect, that's really the key to all of this. Well, it's an interesting way to look at confidence and a more accessible way, I think, for a lot of people because people think that to be confident, you've got to, there's this gold standard of confidence that you should strive for and your approach is more work with what you've got, be more authentic, and that will be your confidence. I've been talking with Viv Grosskup. She's a writer, comedian, executive coach, and author of the book, Happy High Status. How to effortlessly be confident. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Viv. Thanks, Mike. It's been great talking to you. When was the last time you had your eyes examined? It's actually a very important appointment to make and keep, regardless of your vision. Regular eye exams can detect some potentially hazardous health conditions that you're unaware of and that your primary care doctor might have missed. Looking into your eyes can tell a good eye doctor if you're at risk for some serious conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke, and autoimmune diseases. And as you age, those risks tend to rise. The average adult should see an optometrist every two to three years, maybe more if your health or family history warrants it. And that is something you should know. Hey, I don't want you to fall behind. Remember, we published three episodes a week, and they are delivered to followers, subscribers, whatever you want to call yourself. And they are delivered to you fresh out of the podcast of every Monday, Thursday, and Saturday. I'm Mike Herrothers. I am the host of the show, but I'm not the only one working on it. Something you should know is also produced by Jennifer Brennan, Jeffrey Havison, and the executive producer is Ken Williams. And that is something you should know. 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