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For this interview, I met Enrique Capriles, a Venezuelan opposition leader, a National Assembly member, and former presidential hopeful at his office in Caracas. Following the capture of Venezuela's president, Nicolás Maduro, in a raid by the United States, Enrique Capriles has a vision for a new Venezuela, One with a strong economy, trusted institutions, and crucially, free and democratic elections. My political plan is democracy, democracy, democracy. What does democracy mean? An autonomous, independent judiciary. Is there such a thing in Venezuela? Zero. There hasn't been justice in a long time. Respect for the constitution? Zero. The constitution is the plan that ensures no one feels fear. It contains rights and duties. An electoral authority does ours work. It's a disgrace. Without separation of powers, there is no democracy. Democracy is not just voting. Democracy is respect for human dignity. Recovery of democracy is slow. But there must be will to change. That's where negotiations and guarantees come in. And the best space for guarantees is democracy and the Constitution. Enrique Capriles narrowly lost to Nicolás Maduro in the presidential election of 2013 and also to his predecessor, Hugo Chávez, the year before, and was then banned from holding public office. He was re-elected to the National Assembly last year in elections dismissed as illegitimate by other politicians, including rival opposition leader Maria Corina Machado. Edmundo González Urrutia, another former presidential candidate, lives in exile. but Enrique Capriles remains active within Venezuela. Now he's calling for the various factions of the opposition to unite to rebuild the country. This interview was originally recorded in Spanish, and both questions and answers have been translated. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Enrique Capriles. I think that was a day that will remain in the memory of all Venezuelans, just like El Caracasso in 89, the two coups attempts in 92, which I remember. January 3rd, 2026, we'll stay in the memory. It's now part of our country's history. How did we take it? With surprise. I think nobody expected it. There had been days with more noise about a possible U.S. ground intervention, but I think no one imagined the U.S. Army would actually enter, let alone that they would take Nicolás Maduro and Silvia Flores. As you say, it was a show of force by a foreign country that removed Maduro. What do you think of that? Look, I think that at some point, because of the fear that still exists in Venezuela, the fear of speaking out, if that fear didn't exist, many Venezuelans would probably have gone out to celebrate what happened that morning. And the truth neither offends nor scares me. What I'm saying is that at some point the country must debate, how did we get here? The Venezuelan government's, the regime's constant message was to portray itself as a victim and appeal to international law. It's true that international law is in crisis globally. We're in a moment where international rules seem sidelined. But if we talk about victimhood, how many times did the Venezuelan regime trample its own internal laws? That Maduro can now appoint his own lawyers for the trial he faces in the U.S. is a right he denied to hundreds of Venezuelans who are not allowed to choose their own lawyers to defend themselves from charges imposed on them overnight by the regime. How many imprisoned? How many open cases? How much persecution and harassment? I don't mean that because one violates the law, others should too. But at some point, Venezuela must debate the before, during and after of January 3rd. You tried for years, but this is happening under Maria Corina Machado's leadership. What's your role now in the opposition, after months of you criticizing her and her strategy of closer ties with the US government and Trump? Look, I think personalizing things is a mistake. This isn't a competition over who leads the process. My criticism is not personal, and it's not about saying I told you so. But when the U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio explains his theory of change, it is precisely the same theory of change that for years we said was the one capable of building what we all want the recovery of democracy and alternation in power A socially weakened society doesn push political change You need to restore family income and address the critical situation people live in before landing what we Venezuelans want, which is democratic recovery. We want a lasting, stable democracy. That's what's still missing. When journalists ask about the transition, That word can mean many things. We need to add the last name, transition to democracy. And we must set that horizon clearly so we don't repeat the status quo. Maduro is gone, but chavismo remains. How optimistic are you about what comes next? Look, we're still not in a transition. If anyone tells you we're already in a transition, we're not. There was a change in command. Maduro left. And remember, something the regime doesn't want discussed, Maduro was not a constitutional president. He was a de facto one, because the election held under terrible conditions, which we all voted in, knowing what happened, was not won by Maduro. And Deuci Rodriguez is vice president appointed by a de facto government. For Venezuela to talk about transition, the de facto government must show it's willing to reinstitutionalize the country and walk towards democracy. We're not there yet. Freeing political prisoners is important but insufficient. All political prisoners must be freed. And not only freed, their cases must be closed. They need full freedom. That is a step, but not enough. If that continues and we see freedom of press and expression, rights guaranteed in our constitution, then I think we can talk about changes and transition. What do you say to opposition members who see Delce Rodriguez emerging as a key figure of Chavismo now in power? Only a few days have passed. We've waited for many years and Venezuelans won't settle for little. Nor should we. The country is still shaken. But I would urge advancing the theory of change, stabilize the country, rebuild the economy, and simultaneously reinstitutionalize. For me, the end of this must be a free democratic election respected by all who participate. And to call an election, you must change the institution responsible for not accepting the people's will. With this CNE, the National Electoral Council, you cannot hold elections again. Never has the theft of sovereignty been as blatant as on July 28, 2024. Even the international allies of Maduro, Russia, China, didn't defend him after January 3. Why? Because it was clear he lacked legitimacy. That's why I say it was a de facto government. Returning to July 28, I've spoken with many opposition Venezuelans who asked, where were you when the opposition took to the streets after results widely considered fraudulent. What do you say to those who feel you left them alone? The protagonist on July 28th was not me. I was not the leader of the opposition's direction that day. I did everything within my power to help Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia win. I walked the streets, sought votes, sought support, tried to spark hope, encouraged people to vote under undemocratic conditions. But I wasn't the captain of that ship. I've been captain before in 2013, and I've explained countless times what we did in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017. Sometimes we must review history objectively to understand responsibilities. If we want change and democracy, we must stop internal attacks within the democratic opposition. There will be no change if we replace one way of doing politics with the same thing in a different color. The opposition must be deeply democratic. We can disagree and still be democratic. Disagreement doesn't make you a collaborator of the regime. I have a theory of change I've explained many times, and life has its twists. Those who insisted the only solution was force and that the U.S. would remove Maduro did not get that outcome. Who gave the U.S. government legitimacy to do whatever it wanted? Not us. we repeatedly told them what we believed was the viable path, stabilize the economy, rebuild the social fabric, open channels of negotiation, restore institutions, offer guarantees, and eventually allow the country to express itself democratically. And now we're aligned on this path. Some in the opposition say you're a collaborator. What do you tell them? What does collaborate mean? Politics is negotiation. Democracy is negotiation. Was force able to restore democracy? No. It will end in negotiation. Does negotiation mean collaboration? Is it a substantive issue or an issue of protagonism? It often seems like it's about protagonism. We're not competing internally. I believe in negotiation because I'm not a warmonger. Venezuelans want change, and that's why the events of January 3rd surprised people so much. Most Venezuelans would have said it was impossible. After years of struggle and confrontation, people didn't want more deaths, injuries, prisoners. No one wants to repeat that. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. Thank you marketer logistics manager for a better work in Nederland Shopify by your side. Securing an interview with Enrique Capriles wasn't easy. He had rejected many previous requests, and we understand why. He has become a polarizing figure, facing accusations of collaborating with the government, claims that reflect just how polarized the Venezuelan society is today. He told me he was even forced to disable the comments on his Instagram account because of the intense criticism he receives. OK, let's return to my conversation with Enrique Capriles. You have long advocated dialogue and negotiation, but that strategy has often failed. Why would it work now? Because failing to achieve peace doesn't mean you stop pursuing peace. These are convictions we probably reached January 3rd because of so many failed processes. That is the debate the country must have. Why did we reach this point? Because the government always believed it could get away with anything. It always refused to make democracy function. But beyond diagnosing, we must now look forward. What comes next? Most Venezuelans are thinking about the future. Will things improve? Will deep change come? Will we reunite as a people with our history, dreams and hopes? Can Venezuelans abroad return to a country of opportunity? Can we give legitimacy through our vote, a country that has always participated until sovereignty was stolen on July 28, 2024? I still believe one must always have a voice at the table. A voice that doesn't speak, a country that doesn't express itself, is silenced. Look at the National Assembly today. What if there were no opposition voices? Who would denounce? Who would represent the majority? But again, this is another debate. The main question now is, what comes next? Will Venezuela's economy improve? The U.S. government speaks of billion-dollar investments. Where will that money go? What will it mean for Venezuelans? I want a Venezuela for Venezuelans, just like the U.S. wants the U.S. for Americans. I want oil revenue to benefit the country, free of corruption, so people can say, we suffered for years, but now there's hope, light ahead. That light must be stable, not dependent on U.S. domestic politics. That's why defining transition and a roadmap is crucial. What are the steps? How do we restore institutions, personal freedoms, rule of law? Elections are not the end. They are a means to restore legitimacy. And legitimacy comes from the Venezuelan people. Given Chavismo's resistance, do you fear economic improvements and Trump meeting commercial needs could allow Delce Rodriguez to stay in power indefinitely? That would not be changed. And it would contradict what President Trump and Secretary Rubio have said. These are not just two issues, but three. Let me confess, I'm not one of those who jumps at Trump's posts on Truth Social. His style, the memes, calling himself Venezuela's interim president, that's his style, for domestic and foreign politics. The challenge for the opposition is to avoid internal conflict. We're not competing for leadership. I'm not competing with Maria Corina or anyone else. There are roles, those abroad contributing and those inside contributing. No one can do this alone. It requires a national team. If the opposition remains internally divided, we open the door for deals between the U.S. administration and those now in power in Caracas. If I could speak with Secretary Rubio and President Trump, I'd say stabilizing the economy is good. Rebuilding the social fabric is good. But for stability, legitimacy is needed. And legitimacy doesn't come from Washington. It comes from the Venezuelan people. If democracy is removed from the agenda, this will not be a good deal. The worst mistake for the opposition after January 3rd is thinking this is a leadership contest. We must work as a team. The U.S. has its own interests. They don't necessarily align with Venezuelans' interests. If the democratic opposition doesn't unite, we may end up excluded from negotiations. I'm not concerned about being excluded from power quotas. I'm concerned about the country's future. The U.S. has elections in three years. We cannot depend on their domestic cycles to determine Venezuela's future. We must unite so the opposition has a voice and vote in building the future. Legitimacy for a new government must come not from the U.S. president, but from the Venezuelan people. Do you still dream of being president? That's not on my agenda. My role today and for the foreseeable future is to recover democracy. That doesn't depend on a candidacy. Wherever I can be useful in recovering democracy, that's where I will be. I did everything possible to help Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia, who should not have been the candidate. It should have been Maria Corina Machado. She was disqualified like others. But she was the legitimate candidate. Edmundo Gonzalez was chosen to fill that gap, and I value that. And I've said many times, I was surprised and impressed that Maria Corina stayed in the process. We gotten this far because we participated in the July 28 2024 election Legitimacy comes from participating I believe it always better to be in the game even if the conditions are adverse than to stay home Every time the regime calls an election I believe we must fight. The next election I hope for is a democratic one, where the Venezuelan people grant legitimacy to whoever will lead the country. To finish, you've been talking a lot about the economy, but what's your political plan for the coming years? And you've mentioned a roadmap to democracy. How do you envision it? My political plan is democracy, democracy, democracy. What does democracy mean? An autonomous, independent judiciary. Is there such a thing in Venezuela? Zero. There hasn't been justice in a long time. Respect for the Constitution, zero. The Constitution is the plan that ensures no one feels fear. It contains rights and duties. An electoral authority does ours work. It's a disgrace. Even today, the elections held since July 28, we still wait for the results. They haven't even restored the website to show votes per center by party. Citizen power, prosecutor's office, ombudsman, controller, do they exist independently? No. Fully controlled by those in power. Without separation of powers, there is no democracy. Democracy is not just voting. Democracy is respect for human dignity. It's you and I talking freely here. It's you publishing freely, not inciting violence, of course. That's how the regime manipulates hate laws. Who defines hate? The government. Meanwhile, they promote hate daily. Rules exist only for ordinary people, interpreted by those in power. That's not the country we want. Recovery of democracy is slow. After so many years of abuse, conduct doesn't change overnight. But there must be will to change. That's where negotiations and guarantees come in. And the best space for guarantees is democracy and the constitution. If there are rules, no one should be afraid. If I open a small business and I know the requirements, I'm not afraid. I follow the rules, the state respects me. That was lost. The opposition must not forget this. One of my concerns is that some opposition behavior mirrors authoritarianism, disqualification, labeling, attacking because we differ, Is politics just social media campaigns? Is that the future? Or are we dealing with human beings? There's a huge disconnect with people's real needs. People didn't lose interest. They lost faith because politics doesn't solve anything. If there is no politics, what is left? War? That's what I tell many people. If we can't talk, what's left? Guns? Rifles? Bombs? Thank God, though I mourn those who died, the scenario painted by the government was civil war. And Venezuelans did not respond with civil war. No one went out to kill after what happened with Maduro. That's something the government doesn't want to recognize. Do you think there is a risk of civil war? I think Venezuelans gave a clear response after January 3rd. No one here will kill for any leader, whatever their name. Maduro repeated endlessly that the country would rise up. They said if the gringos come in, they won't get out. If they come, they'll have to carry bodies and sacks. I do not defend violations of international law. I don't justify the bombings, never will. But we must debate why we reached this point. Not to give any president a blank check, this is our country. But the situation had become unviable, unsustainable. And who opened that door? Not the opposition with all its flaws. The door opened when the will of millions of peaceful voters on July 28, 2024 was ignored. Maduro imposed a government the people didn't elect. Many years of sacrifice. But what happened cannot be used to maintain the status quo. It cannot return us to the same place. It must bring democracy for Venezuelans. Venezuela is not a business. Venezuela must be seen as a country where millions want to work, dream and move forward. We're not a colony. We want good relations with the world, but so our people can prosper, so human dignity is respected. Thank you for listening to the interview. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find many more episodes of The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with Venezuela's opposition leader, Maria Corina Machado, President Lula da Silva of Brazil, and Ecuador's President Daniel Novoa. Until next time, bye for now. www.shopify.nl That's Shopify.nl It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom and the trading floor. That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive. 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