S08.30: Irredeemable Characters: Morality Chain Redux

Jen. Yes. We went to the moon. It's really been very awesome, Sarah. Um, yes. So, okay, I will put this in show notes. There's a, there's just been a lot of obviously really cool stuff, but one of the coolest things I've seen, um, despite like in like not just like obviously the footage and all that stuff, but there's something called the, I think it's called the like NASA daily something or whatever. And um, what it is, is it's like the NASA daily picture. It's like a picture of something. And two days ago yesterday, it was a really cool, essentially like animation of the actual like where like, right? Like, so it shows the earth and then it shows like a little thing, like take it off from it and then it like zooms all the way out of Artemis and it shows like the whole edit. You know, it's funny cause I was showing my students today, of course, they're like, you don't teach science. I was like, shut up kids. I know about the moon. I was like, I love the moon. And then, you know, it's like, you can really see that like it's going to where the moon is not right. And they're meeting. Yes. And the kids were like, but it's going to miss it. And I was like, no, it's not. I tried to explain to my daughter this morning, we were walking to school and she was like, I don't understand how they were on the backside of the moon and the moon was light. Like, isn't the moon always dark at the back? And I was like, no, cause the moon is going. Yeah. Around. You gotta keep a lot of things in your head kid. And so as we were walking to school, I was like, my hand is the, and my other hand is the moon. And it's, you can't do it with your hands. No walking everybody. You got to draw a diagram or just ask NASA and they'll explain it to you. Yes. But well, also, it's tiny. It's out there. It's seeing. I'm loving this moon. Shit. Welcome to my world. And as you know, like I could take or leave the moon largely like, it's all right. I know about moon science and things like that. But man, these pictures, these four, I know, nerds just out there floating in space. Yeah. Nutella flying by so pure, so amazing. You know, this other thing in 40 minutes, just without being able to even contact earth. What a gift. It truly, truly is. I sent you all this. It was I saw it on, I think it was just like someone's post on, I don't know, Blue Sky or something. And they were just talking about how like maybe one of the things that, this was somebody named Jacob Harris. And it said realizing that some of my inexplicable sadness about the Artemis stuff is that it feels like a trans dimensional communication from an America that took a different path and chose joy instead of fear and hate. Yeah. And I just was like, listen, this is the most, I got into bed last night and I said to Eric, like, what the fucking moon? Shit, I love it. And he was like, well, you know, and he started to like, yeah, no, no, let us have this moment of anti cynicism. Yes. This is like four people in a tin can as far from the earth as we've ever been looking at the backside of the fucking moon. And all the, and I was explaining to my daughter this morning on the walk to school, like the hundreds and thousands of people who have helped over the years from like mission control to like scientists who make eclipse glasses to, you know, the people who clean the hallways at NASA have all worked to do this. And what a cool thing that humans can do all together when we work towards something greater than us. Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah, I've been strangely, yeah, right. I've been strangely moved by it. And if you have not listened, oh yeah, right. Just like even like me sitting around watching the live stream of people sitting around and like mission control center, you know, not doing much women who have been talking and like so many women have been talking and explaining. And yeah, my favorite moment though, by far is when one of the astronauts just he couldn't control himself. He was just so fucking he was like, holy shit, moon. And he was like, and I see this and I see that and it's all amazing. And he just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there was a pause and mission control goes copy moonjoy. I know. Moonjoy. Yay. Everybody, if you did not listen to our first season of the podcast, when we did Crustley Cole's immortal's left her dark, we had a site and we had an astronomer on yeah, because I was like, I got to ask about all this moon shit that had to do with essentially all the everybody. Jen had some real problems with the moon. I did. I did. I did like moon rep. It's true. There were things where I was like, I'm sorry, this is incorrect. There is no like moon on voices discussion in any of the edits of those books. I was literally like, I was like, I'm sorry, the copy editor really did you wrong here? It's impossible for it to be a full moon at this hour. It is. What a fucking dork. I'm sorry. So listen, what I've been telling you here is I've been like, basically keeping my moonjoy under wraps for seven seasons and it's back, baby. It's back. But that picture of it, like the colors of the moon. I know. And my daughter was like, is this AI? And I was like, no, this is the fucking moon. Look at it. Anti AI. Real moon picture. We sent four fucking people up to just put their eyeballs on it and see what they could find out. Just have a look. Just go up there and have a look. See, it's like looking in the back of your closet for like the sock that's missing or something. Only it's, you know, a planetary body. Listen, I love all these guys. I love the guy with the bracelet and the heart. Copy heart, copy bracelet. I love the pilot who told his wife that he loves her from the moon. I love the, I love Carol's husband, who got a crater named after her from his, listen, everybody online is like, he named a crater after her. No, his friends loved them so much they named a crater after her for him. It's all perfect. I love, I love that ladies curls just bouncing around up there. I love that there's Nutella just flying around in space. No notes. A plus. It's been great. It really has been. So if you have missed the moon stuff, do yourself a favor, head over to Instagram, follow NASA. I'm sure by now by the time this episode is out, there are like super cuts of all the greatest hits of the moon excitement. The Artemis crew is back already probably by now and man, they splashed down on the tents. So that's a few days from now. So they'll be back unfortunately for them. And but man, they got to see the back of the moon. Yeah, it's crazy. It's pretty awesome. So anyway, everybody, we've been really excited here about moon joy and hope you have a good too. Yeah. It's been great. Happy romance joy. Well, there you go. Why don't you introduce us, Sarah? Everyone, welcome to Fated Mates. We are not a space podcast. We are a romance podcast and I'm Sarah Maclean. I read romance novels and I write them and I'm Jennifer Prokopp, a romance reader and editor. But of course, now you say that I'm like, I guess we should have saved ours. We have done space romance. We've done like aliens, you know, head over. Yeah, we'll put links in the show notes. Um, listen, the moon, what romance novel would you take to space? Wait, you know, they send that gold disc out. Oh yeah, right. Okay, this is a fun question. Yeah, everybody, you all must I'm letting you think I'm letting you cook for a little while. Everybody, if you don't know this, although I'm sure all of you do, when they sent Voyager out and the concept behind Voyager was it was, it was just going to go, they were just going to shoot it out into the world. It's never coming back into the universe. It's never coming back. It's just going and going and going and going. And it's, it sent back pictures of lots of things and now it's just gone. Like we, it's just going. Yeah. And the idea was, well, someday another civilization might discover it. And if they do, it's coming toward them, they'll probably go and get it because it'll be weird that it's coming toward them. And so on Voyager, there's, there are these golden discs and they carry snippets of language, music, the sounds of the animals on the, on earth, coded photographs, like all sorts of things that show, you know, the different things that are, that have happened, what earth is. And so I don't actually know, I would like to read a book, and I'm sure there is a book about like how that came to be. Like what they decided to put on. How they decided what would go on it. But anyway, my question is for you, Jennifer. Yes. What romance novel would you send on Voyager into space? Lord of Scoundrels. Of course it's Lord of Scoundrels. It is. Sorry. I'm not sorry. And that's what I'd send. Best of us. That's a good foray for us to also just take a like a bit of a moment, although I'm not really done talking about space because I want to talk about that Ryan Gosling movie. Or we can come back around. I'm going to think and see if I can come up with something else. Okay. Like should it be Ice Planet Barbarians? Shut up. That's amazing. I mean, that'd be pretty amazing, by the way. That'd be pretty funny. If you catch the Voyager ship and you listen to like Billie Holiday and speeches from fucking Churchill and shit, and then you read Ice Planet Barbarians and you're like, now what the fuck is this? Because it's sort of meta. It would be. The question is, does the civilization that finds this, do they understand meta? Would they be amused by ridiculous? Or are they like these assholes? They don't know how anything works. Leave them. Leave them there. Let's not go there. Don't leave us. If you can hear Faded Mates, come back. Please come. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Neha Liu, author of Midnight at Soulfield. Jen, it's an incubus romance. I'm so excited. Okay. Our heroine Midnight has suppressed her magical gifts to keep demons at bay for 18 years. But every night he comes for her. She can't move, she can't see his face, but she can feel his claws on her skin, his breath against her throat, and his voice in her skull telling her that they are bound by the cords of fate. And her body is responding, even as her mind is screaming, that this is a very, very bad idea. Midnight has been admitted to Soulfield, which is a magical academy. And there it starts to become clear that her soul magic is more powerful than anything anyone at this school has ever seen. And it's actually pretty scary. So she ends up caught between three forces, three men. Alistair, the protective heir whose unwavering presence pierces her high walls of protection. Jack, a volatile outsider who mirrors and understands her most shameful secrets and this really scary, really compelling possessive demon who whispers about her being only needing him. So Midnight is fighting for body, mind, soul, love, and realizing that if she's going to survive this, she's probably going to have to stop running from her demons and start embracing them and maybe other things too with them. So I mean, obviously, we are delighted by this. So if you would like to check out Midnight at Soulfield, it is a spicy, dark academia, incubus, romantic, with dark themes featuring a possessive, morally gray characters, and also like a unfolding mystery with suspenseful twists and magic. It is available right now in print ebook or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Nehaliu for sponsoring this week's episode. All right, let me take, okay, you think of your answer while I talk about two other things. So space related, I did go see Project Hail Mary in IMAX, Mystery Dormants, and I went to see that because I do like, I like The Martian a lot. I like Ryan Vasling a lot. And I, you know, I was, and what had happened is my sister-in-law, Janine, had gone to see it when we were in LA and she was like, you guys, it's great. And so we went and we had a really awesome time. It was just like a really, I don't know, I just like, that's like one of my favorite kinds of movies. And so anyway, if you're like, I want more space, then go watch that movie. The Martian is also very good. I, okay, related more to Lord of Scoundrels, everyone, you have probably been seeing us reposting and sharing a really cool project that we are, like, I don't know, we're the junior partners, I'm going to say, on a part with Adran and Allie's bright A-H2 productions. They are, we're putting together a really amazing bundle of five, like, perfect historical romances. And this includes Lord of Scoundrels, Dreaming of You, of course, by Lisa Claipus, because we were involved in, you know, Butterfly Swords by Jeannie Lynn, The Magpie Lord by KJ Charles, and Indigo by Beverly Jenkins, is that the five? Yes. And we are like slowly over the next like, couple of weeks releasing like sort of what the books are going to look like, the dust jackets, the inside covers, a lot of the really cool artwork that has been, that you have been seeing on Instagram. So there is a, I'll put this, or, you know, it'll be in show notes or up at the top, on the top of the header of the page. There's a link to the Kickstarter page, which is not live yet, like it's just sort of like there, but you can follow it. And the reason you would want to do that is then you'll just be getting updates and emails and information. So if you're not on Instagram, or you're not following it there, then you'll be getting all of the relevant information for this right in your inbox. So it's, if you are someone who loves historical romance, this would be a really cool, I don't know, I just am really inspired by the idea of having beautiful editions of some of our- They are so stunning, everybody. And then on top of it, Julia Whalen is producing- I know. Those word of scoundrels, full cast audio, and the indigo full cast audio. And she is playing Jessica Trent. It is so great. Robin Lee is playing Hester from indigo, and attractive, deep voiced men are playing the other, the men there, who cares? And you know, I will tell you something, Sarah. We knew, we have been knowing about Julia Whalen's involvement for a long time, and I knew she was going to be Jessica Trent and still just thinking about it makes me- It's so exciting. ... like, gleeful in a way that I cannot even tell you about. Now, I just want to follow up, because one of the things is, you know, someone was like, oh, would you do other of the books? And, you know, we could only get the rights to those two books for audio. So, you know, no matter, it's not like a stretch goal. It's not like something we're like, you know, like, promise or try to do later. Like, we just really, they, you know, could only get the rights for those two books for this particular project. But I'm really excited about it. And so, yeah, the best thing to do right now is just like head over, like, you know, look on the page or head over to Kickstarter or go to Instagram and just, you know, essentially follow that Kickstarter page, which I think is just like the best way to like be on top of all the updates. So, there you go. Links and show notes. Yeah, I gotta tell you, I mean, like, truly, I think any of the Trailblazer books in that book would be a welcome addition to the Voyager romance novel journey. Yes. But I mean, it's gotta be Lord of Scoundrels. It's Lord of Scoundrels because the writing is so good and Dane and the callback to beauty and the beast and the Jessica being so fierce and the fact that it's in England and in France and the fact that it's, you know, history, but also modern and A plus. I also think, you know, for something like that. And Ruby Dixon. Yeah. Sure. Lord of Scoundrels and Ice Planet Barbarians. A findup. You know, I think the thing that's like really interesting about that too, though, is and we've talked about this a lot and maybe at some point we should figure out how to do an actual episode about it. But, you know, sometimes you don't know what your favorite books are. The, you know, like there are books I've loved the minute I've read them and I've never had an urge to read them again. And then there are books who have like stuck with me that have like surprised me where I've been like, yeah, that book was okay. And then it's a book that I, you know, so the whole like Keeper Shelf thing is so real. And I think the thing about like picking something like this is it really is like, okay, well, it has to be something that has been, has like had like sort of risen to that status, right? And stayed there, right? Not a book that, you know, so it's like, you know, would I say something different 10 years from now? I mean, like, I think about the book like white out a lot, right? Because I think it's, I know, white out to speak. I know, they would be like, wait, hold on. So the corporations are the bad guys, right? Corporations are the bad guys. Corporations are the bad guys. Like, I'm like, I think that that's onto something. So anyway, murder bot knew why not? So funny, just funny. I mean, also, I just think it's funny how you say favorite, right? Like, favorite such people always ask me like, what's your favorite romance novel? And, and it's funny, because I don't, I mean, like, I don't know how I, I don't know how you feel, how you pick a favorite, right? I mean, my favorite, if you're, if you're saying like, what's the romance novel you go back to again, and again, and again, and again, then I have an answer to that. But it's not Lord of Scoundrels. But like, if you said like, what's the romance novel that you would like, press into someone's hands on Voyager in a future, like in a faraway dimension, Dennis Lord of Scoundrels. And I feel like, man, you know, I feel like it's just always such a difficult when you're, when you're as well read in a genre as you and I are, these are just difficult questions. They're impossible. I mean, but honestly, maybe I'm going to cheat and say, we send the whole Trailblazers collection. Sure. Then they get Jeannie, they get Bev, they get KJ, Lisa, and Loretta. There you go. Boom. I can't, I mean, that's your Desert Island collection too. What's somebody's name? Like, what romance would you take on a like deserted island? And I was like, well, I guess a long one. Like, that's it. I've got one book. Can I take my Kindle? Like, what's going to happen? But you could spend a pretty good time on a deserted island with those five books. Oh, yeah. In a reread rotation. Oh, sure. Absolutely. And find other things to say. But I mean, I guess also like a book that represents, right? Because that's the thing about this Voyager thing is it's supposed to represent Earth. And I don't know about that. Then maybe I would say Bev. I mean, as though they are American set, they do sort of represent what we do. Either way, right? Like the best romance is about the human condition. So, right. But like something like Indigo represents the worst and best of us, right? Right. Yeah. Versus stupid Dane and his stupid man feelings. You can't send like Lothair because because then they'd be like Lothair. You can't be like, you can't send Lothair. It's like, you know, too much. But you could send Rune and then that was a whole dimensional thing. They end up in space. Sure. They'd be like, let's do it. Oh my God. Oh, funny. All right. Okay. Tell tell us what we've won today. Well, you know, we always say on the podcast, I often at the end say if there's a topic that you want us to tackle, you know, if you have an idea for an episode, let us know. And I know a lot of you think like, oh, that's just a throwaway line that Sarah says and it isn't because Jen keeps a big list. Yes. And then sometimes I look at it. Yes, true. But actually this came from maybe the disc was it the questions from the AMA maybe or it was like on the discord, somebody I apologize. I don't know who said I really love it for you. I'd love for you to do an episode about the irredeemables, meaning the characters who have been considered irredeemable in within the text. So exiled from their families, unloved by their families because of something they've done that's bad. Right. Or and then I thought, well, that's a really good idea. Because I think that everybody knows, right? I love a I love a bastard, like metaphorically. And I love a person who just like really fucked up and doesn't know they fucked up at the beginning of the book. Right. Right. I like them to be bad and not know it until love wax them over the head. And then they're like, oh, shit, I'm bad. Like I was bad. And I think that as like, I think as a general rule, romance likes these characters. Yes. You know, because we are a genre of transformation, there is, you can write a romance novel with very little external plot. If the internal plot is he or she, or they did a terrible thing and has to turn it turn themselves around. I agree with that. I think the other thing that I think is really interesting about the like these books, like to me, right. And to me, like this is really like a core story of romance is a lot of like anti-heroes are so popular in like pop culture. But in anti-hero and romance, I think is going to be is going to turn back to like the light, essentially, right. And even and I think like, I also want to point out like this is not meant to be like a an episode that's like a proxy for dark romance. I think dark romance is potentially doing like really interesting things here. But that's like that what we're like trying to do here. I think maybe like we will talk about some of those things. But you know, I don't think either of us are like very read a whole lot. I'm not well enough for exactly. So any books that we talk about here are just like kind of in that theme. Here's the other thing I will also admit, because I like to miss this in advance. I'm basically raw dogging this episode, I've done no prep, I'm just going to let Sarah talk and like see what comes to me. We're just going to like everybody, I did a little bit of prep. But I mean, we are going to talk about some books that I think, here's the thing, I think I love this concept. And I love it instinctively as a reader. I love it as a writer also, although I think I'm not as good at writing an irredeemable hero as others. But I think that so I think we'll probably be treading familiar ground for those of you who have listened for a long time, because I think we're more interested. Well, of course, we are interested always in recommending great books to you. I think I'm much more interested in like having the conversation around like why we love this character. Right. So we did, like you said, we did a morally gray or like a morality chain episode many seasons ago. And I think that the reason why, I think Lothair, you already brought him up because we were talking about space, but but I think like Lothair is a really good place to start as sort of a primordial morality chain concept. Right. Like we have a character and also an irredeemable in some ways, although that is not the Kressley Cole book that I want to talk about for this episode. But let's start with Lothair. And then we'll talk about why I actually don't think Lothair is right for this episode, even though he is right for this episode. You'll all, it's fine, everybody. You'll just come along with me for the ride. This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Claire Contreras, author of Isle of Wrath. Oh, we talked about this one on the spring preview episode. I know, it looks so great. We've got a romantic where we have people bound by a curse, right? And the way it works is, oh, I mean, who doesn't in Lunaris, as everyone trades their memories for asylum. So no one remembers their past, their homeland or the curse that traps them behind this wall of darkness called the Shroud. And all they know is like the set of rules that they are now bound by. So Ada has a twin brother who is struck by a poison arrow. And if that is the point where she breaks the most dangerous rule of all, she bargains with the goddess of death to save his life. What she doesn't expect is for the goddess to send Malachi to help her. But the goddess essentially binds their souls together until Ada repays what she owes. And now she has to help him do the impossible, lift the Shroud, break the curse that's kept Lunaris hidden from the rest of the realm for 300 years. And in doing so, she's going to be pulled into a forbidden world where a monster is lurking, but also this handsome man is going to help her break this curse and they're going to get away. And I believe in them. Well, I also believe in them and I believe in Claire Contreras because she writes a great book. So if you are interested in this, you can get it right now in print, ebook, audiobook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Claire Contreras for sponsoring this week's episode. The structure of Immortals After Dark is like, it's monster mash, monsters exist, they live alongside us, humans can't see them, but they exist, right? We over the course of the series, over the course of course, the first, I don't know, eight books meet this character named both there. He's the oldest of the vampires. He is at least at the time of his writing, he's the oldest of the vampires, like he is a vicious character. He is basically, he is the like a mercenary of sorts. He kills for sport. He is in the, he is the vicious hand of a vampire king. And we see him do terrible things, both to the characters within the books and to others. And he doesn't seem to have any moral compass whatsoever. He's arrogant to a fault. He is more powerful than most. He is more intelligent than most of the characters, and we salivate for him. It's like, Kressley puts him on page in like book two or something. Yeah, it's early, right. And he is just like, he sort of lurks in the background for a while, and then she brings him forward and readers just like, we're so drunk with love for Lothair that when it came time for his book, they wrapped a tour bus, Simon Schuster wrapped a tour bus in the cover of his book in the face of the model on the book and sent Kressley Cole around the country in a Lothair wrapped tour bus because people were waiting around, like around the corners of bookstores for this book. And he is in many ways irredeemable, right? Like we don't see him in any decent light until it's time for his book. Except she starts to turn the corner on him. So actually that's incorrect. He is in many ways irredeemable for the first however many, and then Kressley starts realizes I think she's got to write him his book. And so she begins a new movement of the series and she brings Lothair forward and his power becomes more important, right on the page. And they need and he becomes like a critical piece of the puzzle in some of the prior in some of the books that like immediately proceed his. And we start to see him as his humanity. Yeah, like he's clever. He's funny. He is sort of willing to do the right thing in a pinch. And so he's not by the time we get to his book, he's not irredeemable anymore. Right. Like we've seen her start to turn the bus around. Which is why my my proposal for the true irredeemable of Immortals After Dark is Declan Chase. Yeah, I would agree. Yes. Mr. Vivisection himself. A berserker in human clothing who fully tortures whole wide swaths of immortals. Right up to the beginning of his own book. Yeah. I mean and like through time. Right. Well, he doesn't know it's through time. No, but but Regan does. Right. She knows only because he's constantly reincarnated. Right. This book is no, listen, I would not go blind into this book. I'm not start the series at this book. This is a book. This is a 400 level Cressley Cole book like it is. This is an intense book. But yeah, the premise is that the series allows for fated mates. Declan and Regan are fated mates. She is a Valkyrie. He is a berserker. Berserkers can be reincarnated and when they are reincarnated, they forget what came before. And Declan and Regan and Declan have been fated and their fate, they are star crossed dozens of times. Yes. Before they meet again in this book in this time period. And when they meet again, he is running basically like a sadistic torture science lab designed to understand the immortals biology. And he is fucking terrible. Yeah, he is. And the true villain of the series for this part of the book. And his arc is to understand, like he vivisects her, everyone. Like he, I mean, it's bad. It is. And his arc, so he was, he is fondly referred to as Mr. Vivisection in our, so fun. We're so fun. Mr. Vivisection, King of Torture Island. And like, but what's interesting is the moment he realizes, like what he has become and what he is doing and how he is repeating history and what he is doing to her, he is broken. And that I think is the difference between a kind of villain, a really like morally dark character who in these dark romances, who doesn't have to evolve, right? Right. In order to be the hero of a dark romance. An irredeemable character has to be redeemed. I think I've only read that book twice. So the first time I read it. And then when I read it before we did our, you know, season one deep dive. It's a difficult read. That is not a book that, I mean, I have read and reread most of IAD, like several times. And that book, I just kind of always just skip right over. But I think that the reason why is because it's a, it's an unpleasant, conceptually, it's unpleasant, right? It also has a very tough beginning, that book that I actually don't think would exist, as she wrote it today. There is a, at the very, very start of that book, a year in the way past, and Regan is a child and they are faded. And nothing happens between them, but it is just slightly squeaky. But I think, I think conceptually, it is a very difficult book to wrap your head around, because he is so cruel. And I think that as a writer, Kressley's taking a big swing there, right? Like how, how irredeemable can a character be? And still be loved at the end of the book, be worthy of love. Is it irredeemable? If it's not irredeemable to the other character, when is it irredeemable to the reader? Right? Like, so there's some sort of like really interesting way in which, you know, like we are sort of like rolling in and judging the characters too, right? And, oh, 100%. I think that part's really interesting too. Like, okay, well, Regan forgives him. And so therefore, you know, that isn't that enough? Isn't that enough? But that's the heartbeat of a romance, right? Like, we have to believe it. We have to believe that it's, that they are changed. Well, and I think, like one of the things that I think then is interesting to me about paranormal is that you can like thematically explore these really like edge cases. Whereas in a, I guess this was a contemporary romance in the real world, my threshold for forgiveness as a reader is just like way lower, right? And so one of the reasons I think like paranormal is really like so powerful in some ways is because you can, right? Like sort of essentially like have people knew monstrous things to each other, but because they're monsters, they're not humans, right? And so therefore, like their threshold for like kind of understanding like, I don't know, like, what does it really mean? What if we say eternity, if everyone can live forever, right? And so I do think that there's a way in which like, I do think like the irredeemable to like, like truly irredeemable characters where like, I don't feel like I have to like weigh in on that or feel like this is, you know, you know, just like a book I don't really want to engage with is like the paranormal space allows, allows that. Yeah, a thousand percent. And it follows that historical is sort of the next. Yes, you can, you see it in historical. Right. And yeah, romanticy, sci-fi, right? Like anything where there's like a greater distance between us and the, you know, yeah, I don't know, the office or whatever, right? I mean, it's interesting, right? Because I feel like there's a, I mean, this question, right, this sort of irredeemable to the other characters in the book. So there is, so I wrote in Bare Knuckle Bastards, I wrote a hero, the hero of the third book is a killer. Yeah. And he does terrible things in sort of a, he does terrible things in the first two books. And he does terrible things to the other characters in the first two books. And he is hated by his family in the first two books. And then he needs to be redeemed at the end. And now listen, I wrote a book and I intended for it to be a book long grovel and it worked for some people. And some people were just like, he can't be forgiven, right? And so I think this is a, this is a story that is a myth that you either buy or don't buy as a reader. It's a very difficult sell for some readers. But it is about restitution, right? Like it is about seeing a character break, seeing a character go through the pain of understanding what they have been, the pain they have wrought, and then finding, like, making restitution. And maybe there is something compelling about this for, like, I don't know. It's interesting that we don't see more of this in the world right now. Like, I don't see it in books very much now. But man, there are a lot of people in the world who I look forward to discovering the pain that they have wrought and making restitution. Yes. So, you know, we, it's been a while since we've talked about, like, cheating in romance, right? So we did a really interesting episode a couple of seasons ago with Adriana that was about, like, mistresses, right? And I think, like, cheating was sort of like a, you know, kind of entered into the into the chat, if you will, right at that point. Because if you're talking about someone's mistress or being a mistress, then obviously, right, the person is, is married, right? This man is married. It's often was like, you know, and I think we were really talking about historicals. But I have been really interested in, I have been really interested in sort of the rise of what I would call, like, cheating as a trope. Meaning, like, they are sold, right, as like, cheating books in some ways, right? Like, it almost feels a little bit like the way like dark romance sort of talks about, you know, kind of the, there's a way in which you're like really pushing the boundaries on purpose, right? When you say, okay, like, this is a cheating romance or whatever. Or this is a romance with cheating. And yet I have been really sort of also kind of fascinated by the way in which some of these books, which I have, have read, essentially, like, really are not taking the finger, right? And so if you're new to the podcast, way back in season one or two, Sarah was talking about like a conversation she was having with Sophie Jordan about this Annika Martin book, where, right, they've kidnapped this woman and they're like threatening to cut off her finger, essentially, right, with like a paper cutter. Like, one of the brothers goes to Staples, he's like, no problem, I got it. And he gets a paper cutter and he comes back. And then like, it's a moment where the hero like has feelings. Yeah. And I'm like, I really wish he'd taken the finger. And I think like that is like the fearlessness of it, right? Listen, I should also say every time I talk about this, I feel bad. I love that book so much, so much. It's called Dark Mafia Prince, everyone. What a book. I love that whole series. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Little Brown and Company, publisher of Romanticie favorites, including Throne of Secrets and In the Veins of the Drowning, and this week, Honey in Her Veins by Ruth McKell. This is Ruth McKell's debut romanticy, and it is really unique in that it's a cozy romanticy set against the real world of the Appalachian Mountains. So it has that sort of folklore experience, but it's definitely set in our real world. And here's the idea. Arthur Conaway desperately wants to free himself from the monster that it has inhabited his mind for years. And he is fully losing control of it. He's just lost his mother. He's having a massive sort of mental break. And in a last-ditch effort to feel whole again, he returns to the quiet bee farm that he'd once called home, hoping to use the sacred magical honey there to heal him in more ways than one. Now, listen, eight years ago, Ava Moreau, who was Arthur's first love, her flora magic caused a terrible accident, harming her father and really ruining her self-worth and her self-identity. Although she no longer trusts herself with her magic, she is desperate to find a way to heal her father. And now Arthur's back, and he needs her help, too. So Ava has lost control of her magic again now that Arthur's back. The emotion of having Arthur back is putting everyone she loves in danger. And together, the pair decides to trek to the source of Ava's family's magic to find a cure for Arthur, for her father, and to help Ava sort of get a hold of herself. There's a haunting presence in the woods and family secrets and a dark past, and a kind of star-cross lover feel of this one. And romantic lovers who are looking for something a little grounded in the real world, I think are going to love it. Yeah, and it's a standalone, which might be a really fun way to get yourself into a great romantic. This is great for anyone who is looking for something adjacent to cozy that also explores a tortured hero and only one bed. So if this is for you, then Honey in Her Veins is available now. You can check it out by, if your podcasting app supports it, clicking on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Little Brown and Company and Ruth McKell for sponsoring this week's episode. Okay, so cheating to me is really interesting because I think for, this is an example where romance readers feel many of them. That this is the third rail of romance. I don't want to read it. I don't want to hate, I don't want to see it. I don't want this to happen. This is not what I'm coming to romance for, right? So I've been really interested in like sort of the rise of like cheating as trope. And at the same time, and it's not necessarily our policy to like talk about books here that like do like our art, you know, don't work or whatever, but I'm going to talk about a book that I read that I was really fascinated by called A Marriage of Discretion and the author is S.T. Moore's. And I was really fascinated by it because the plot of the book is that essentially the two main characters have an arranged marriage. And she like, and she's a much younger, I think, and you know, it's sort of like because of business or whatever. And so she says to her husband, like, are you planning to still have mistresses? And he was like, I am, you know, this is just who I am. This is like the way I was raised. And like, you know, this is not a real marriage. So yes. And so she says to him, okay, well, here's the deal then, I just don't want to ever run into these women. Like, right, like if we are married, what I'm going to ask you to do is essentially like respect me enough to keep them away from me. And he's kind of like, okay, done deal. And a couple years past, and it's like really, and I was actually very interested in this because I was kind of like, okay, well, what happens is sort of the inciting incident is like after however many years or something, one of his mistresses approaches her at a gala. And she essentially feels that is such a breach of like the, the agreement they made, that she ends up essentially, the book sort of implies that she has like somebody she works with and she starts essentially an affair of her own. And I was like, all right, like, I was interested in this, it seemed to me that this was a book that was really going to like lean into when is it out of bounds, when is it in bounds, and then how do people essentially decide to draw new boundaries together. I was very interested in it. And then the thing is, at the end of the book, it essentially is like disclose that like, well, basically neither of them had really been cheating. You know, and I was kind of like, what are we doing here? Right, like, and it really felt to me and I was, and I was, that's not really a cheating book then. Correct. And I was really, what I was really fascinated by though is, and this is why I like want to talk about it in like the context of being irredeemable, right? Like this isn't a book that I thought was very effective at like doing what it was promising. And then I was kind of like, but is this what the cheating books are promising to the reader? Like, right, like, there, we're going to say that they're cheating, you're going to like you as the reader are going to like be on the edge of that the characters didn't really know what was happening, right? So there's this part where the husband, like the way he figures out that the wife is now cheating on him because she's so pissed at him, is he sees her like go up into a hotel room and not come down for a couple of hours with this guy. And like the end of the book, she's like, we did fool around, there was some oral sex, but there was no, and I was kind of like, wait, but that is cheating. Right. And it's like really, and I felt really fascinated. Like I was fascinated by this book as an artifact. And I was really like, okay, so who is this for? Right? Because the readers are going into it thinking that they have cheated. Like this is, it flatly says, right, that this contains cheating, right, in the like description. And yet then at the end, it's sort of like, you pull back the curtain and it didn't. And I just was like, who is that for? I was really fascinated by it. Like, truly fascinated by it in that sense of like, you promise irredeemability and then you're not going to deliver that? I don't know. Do you feel like these characters are presented as irredeemable? Like are we supposed to find them unattractive, unpleasant, or problematic? No, I don't think so. I think we're supposed to find him sort of the husband's name is Alessio. I think we're supposed to find him sort of privileged, wealthy, aloof, right, all of that. I think we are supposed to find her at the beginning, young, right, like young potentially. And right, like almost in some ways, I was like, really like, oh, is this going to say something about like these age gap books that people gobble up or whatever, right? And I think we see her sort of like growing into her own as a woman from like being essentially like, I think she's like 19 or something when they get married. So I did find myself though mostly thinking like, this is a book that says it's doing something and is doing something different and I could not figure out why. Right? Like even when readers say like, this is what I want, they're not getting it. And I was kind of like, huh, I don't know. It's just I'm so I am fascinated by like the cheating as trope. Because I'm then I was like, oh wait, is this what these books are delivering? It's not really delivering this at all. Yeah, I mean, I think this goes back to the issue with irredeemable, right? Like, I mean, not to talk again about my own book, but I think this is one of those things where, you know, the readers who won't forgive you and for what he has done in past books are never going to accept the romance in Daring and the Duke, right? Because there is no scenario in which they will forget that what he had done, what he has done happened or rather forgive what he has done or understand why he did it. So this could be obviously a failure of the writing, but I actually think that what this is is my unwillingness to tell you that this man has been is is irredeemable to his family is exiled from his family is loathed by his family and never did anything to deserve it, right? That's a story that we tell often in romance, like this is a character who, you know, no one likes or his family has exiled them or their, you know, his family has exiled him or he is, you know, he has sort of he is in some sort of like false identity pretending to be worse than he actually is. He's actually like, you know, a villain with a heart of gold. But like, what happens when they actually did do the thing? And when they did do the thing when they metaphorically or realistically took the finger, then they must atone. And I think for me, as I age especially in romance, atonement is vital. Like, that's what makes a book great. And I'm not saying that it has to be my, you know, like my book, that particular book where it happens like the whole time. Or, you know, I've written two books where like the whole book is like him atoning for past sins. But I think there is something really interesting about say, Saint Vincent, right? Yeah, right, of course. And I mean, Clapis is really doing a thing here. This is a character who literally kidnaps the heroine of the prior book. Yeah, right. And is like, we're fucking going to Gretna Green, you and me. Now, listen, this is sort of transformational in a lot of ways. Prior to this, whenever we saw a kidnapper, we saw somebody who like was going to be vanquished on page in the book in which he has done the kidnapping. Astris Kavya pirates. It's a separate thing. Unless actually, I should say, Astris Kavya, unless the kidnapping happens in the first like, you know, 100 pages of the book and it's the hero, that's a different kind of kidnapping. But like, you know, classic third act kidnapping. Usually the heroine gets kidnapped, swooped up, taken on the, you know, Great North Road, and then the hero chases them down and like beats the shit out of him slash murders him. And that's that. He's on a slow boat to Tasmania. But Clapis doesn't do that with Saint Vincent. And what's interesting is that she sort of ships Vincent off into London, right? Like, you know, Vincent gets vanquished within the context of the prior book. Saint Vincent gets vanquished within the context of the prior book. Clapis kind of puts him on ice until his book comes around, which is the next book. And then she takes Evie, heroine of Devil and Winter, and she sends her in to the lion's den to say, I know you are irredeemable. I know you are a villain, but I need you because knowledge of your irredeemable actions and knowledge of your villainy is safer than what I don't know about my terrible cousin or whoever it is who's coming to marry her, right? And then he is sort of blindsided, like struck by her forthrightness, her innocence, her willingness. She's so strong, her strength. And here is a character who is irredeemable to the rest of the love, the beloved characters in this series, right? Lillian comes in like a fucking Avenger saying, how dare. Yes. What did he do to you? And no one, of course, no one believes that Evie chose it. And like, sure, they assume that he must have manipulated her, right? Like, right, right, something, right? Talked her into it, right? He must have been the prime mover there. Yeah. And of course, what's happening here is very similar to Lord of Scoundrels. Again, like, not an irredeemable, Dane is not irredeemable. He just would like you to believe he is, right? But the, but here you have a character who is just like a perfect match, just like knocking Sam Vincent on his ass. But I think that that's really interesting because the reason why the community accepts Sam Vincent in the end is in large part because Evie does. You know, in Evie's book, like, there's a part where she's like, you wouldn't have raped Lillian, would you have? And he was like, of course not. Yeah, there's Cleopas sort of saying to you. I know what I'm going to say. And I don't know if it's, I already am like, is this right? But I'll just say it. I think that there are irredeemable actions for readers. Like, I think if he had raped Lillian, there is no surviving that for him, which is ironic because if he had been the hero of Lillian's book, maybe we would have. Would we have hand-waved that away? Yeah, I mean, we did, right? We did, for generations in romance, we hand-waved it away. So I don't know if it's time or if it's that it's not, it wasn't his, he was not the hero of her book. Right, of her book, yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is, I think, a very, again, an especially thorny issue now, where this is, again, in some sub-genres, back on the page in a big way. Yeah, so there is, I have talked, sort of, danced around this book a lot, but when I was, you know, one of my very, very favorite romance novels when I was young, and this is not me promoting it, this is not me suggesting you should all go read it, is Megan McKinney's Till Dawn Tames the Night. It is a very dated book. It is, there is like over, it's set in the, in the West Indies. It is about a pirate. It is very racist on, there is a lot of racism on page. And again, I am like warning everybody kind of away from this book. There's a moment in that book where the hero does, he is a pirate. He is a Marquess who has like been, you know, kicked out of his family and he is a pirate and he is on a pirate ship and the heroine is on his pirate ship and they're literally going, she is the clue to the treasure that he is trying to find. That's the premise of the book. And over the course of the book, there is a moment where, and I am going here, I am going somewhere here, but there is a moment in this book where he, they are in his bedroom, like in his like on his island in the Caribbean and he is about to rape her and it's, I don't know, halfway through the book. I mean like, and it is over, like this is happening. She says no, he throws her on the bed. It's like, it's a moment, a real old school romance moment. And she puts her finger into the gold hoop that he wears in his ear to stop him. She tugs on it, to stop him and he freezes above her and he says, rip it out. It won't be the first time. And she is like wracked by this, right? Like that he has experienced such like vicious like pain and like, you know, treatment. And then she starts to cry, of course, and then he can't do it, Jen. That's how that works. Right, exactly. So all of this is, this is obviously deeply problematic, but my point in bringing this up is that I think that is the key, this sort of like the way this used to be done in older books was like, suddenly there would be some revelation about the hero's trauma. And then it would be like, yeah, hurt people, hurt people, that he had behaved this terrible way, because like, he too was hurt. And I think we don't tolerate that now as much. That's good. That's good. But like we do as a genre trade on trauma, right, on hero's trauma. And we do do a fair amount of forgiving them for the trauma that they have experienced, though it that particular act is an is a non starter. But you know, I think about in Elizabeth Hoyt's scandalous desires, which is the one about the river pirate, Mickey, you know, this is a man who is very who is irredeemable to society, and has done terrible things, but also is like, his cruelty to the heroine is like, he toys with her, he's like, it's cat and mouse, that that book. And he again, this, you know, this is a real classic structure, I think maybe for most of these books that I think of as like classic historicals with this setup is like the irredeemable rake, who has always been cat to women who are mice, who thinks he has caught a mouse, but has actually caught another cat. And I think that book too does this, like really interesting, but even in that situation, like Mickey has, he's not irredeemable to everyone. He has his little like mini community, Lothair has his like mini community. St. Vincent is alone. Declan Chase is alone. This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Avery Maxwell, author of The Forgotten Billionaire. Sarah, it is boom. Many years later amnesia. And I know I'm so excited. Okay, so check this out. We have Clover. She has made a beautiful found family for herself in the cozy small town of happiness, Georgia, until one day she looks out across the middle of the town fair and sees the man who broke her heart looking at her as is, if she's a stranger, he is older, harder. She sees the shadows in his eyes. He's got an expensive suit to buy it like what is going on? He's like he doesn't recognize her. Well, that is because Valen has amnesia. And it turns out that his first memory is essentially like waking up in a hospital and everything before that his entire life, the person he was, this girl he loved is gone, as though it never existed. But then when he sees her, it's like he, his body remembers what his mind forgot. And he can just tell that there is like something between them. So he's like, okay, this woman has the key to my past, but there's a stalker in the town, like there's some like, you know, kind of intrigue and together, they're gonna have to like figure out whether or not, like kind of cracking the code of his memory is going to save them both. And they're going to be in love. Incredible. If you also want to read about a billionaire with amnesia, then you should read the Forgotten Billionaire right now in print or ebook or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Avery Maxwell for sponsoring this week's episode. I have one that I think is really interesting. This is a book I read. Well, I was, I was in my, I was reading in my cheating era and I found like a lot of books that were very interesting to me. And this one is called Truth and Tinsel by Maya Olden. And it was, it's like a marriage and trouble romance, where the, the wife her name's Mia, essentially like, sees her husband, like, kissing this woman in like a gazebo or something in, like in their backyard. It's like at a big party or it's his, I don't, I don't remember the exact details. And she is really like, you know what, enough of this bullshit. I've given this man all of my, you know, all of my, like my time and my energy and my effort. And he never has, you know, like sort of essentially like, you know, really, I don't know, it's just really interesting, like essentially like wouldn't at all, you know, like essentially this is like the, the, you know, the, the, the final straw for her. Now, the part that's interesting though, is that, and I found this book to again, be really fascinating. It ultimately is a book that like really worked for me. We find out very quickly that like the other woman kissed him and, you know, and that's not, you know, like that, that whole business. But the thing that was actually really interesting was that she still leaves him. And the thing that we understand pretty quickly is that the, she, the kiss was not like right, her fears about him infidelity or whatever were actually just like a, like a, I don't know, like appeared to be the problem. And the real problem was that they essentially, it's like a, essentially feels like a class difference, right? So, you know, he is, you know, a very, like come from a very wealthy family, his parents never really, you know, really approved of her. She is like, you know, he's like a CEO or something. And she is like a school teacher. And the thing that's like really fascinating about this is I found myself thinking like, I found myself judging Mia. And part of the reason I'm going to like own this is she has a real like, there's like, you know, she's like making shit. And she's like, you know, like making like homemade ornaments and like Christmas exploded all over the house. And, you know, she really is like, I'm making such a beautiful home for my husband. Like by doing all of these things, he really sees like how much I care about him. And Aiden is actually really humiliated by this, right? He like feels like all this like cracker jack shit, like, you know what I mean? He's like, I'm not a kindergartner. Yes, she teaches kindergartners, but like, why am I in it? And I was really like kind of fascinated by how I sound myself uncomfortable with Mia's portrayal as a kind of woman that I sometimes feel like I have a hard time with, right? And I mean, I'm just going to own that, right? I don't know where that comes from. I don't know like exactly what it is. But there's a sort of like, I'm going to like, you know, DIY everything, I'm going to like put spark, you know, I'm going to put glitter on the pine cones at Christmas that is just like not for not for Jen. And ultimately, though, like a big part, and here's the other thing I thought that was really effective about this book is Aiden, as soon as she leaves, is kind of like, at first is a little like, okay, I, you know, she'll come back. And then he really has to figure it out. And it takes months and months and months, like, this is not a book that like feels like, okay, once you name that a problem exists, the problem is fixed. Right? This is a book that really spent a lot of time, but I really found myself kind of feeling or thinking that this was a book that challenged me in that way. Because I really found myself thinking like, I am judging me, right, for like, essentially like, trying hard in a way that is hard for me. And I don't know if that was like, my Alden is the author, I don't know if that was on purpose. But it, I found myself really thinking that like, I was a little bit on team Aiden, that this is embarrassing, an embarrassing way for an adult to act. And then as the book goes on, really like, switching my allegiance to Mia, and feeling a little ashamed of myself for kind of buying into like the class warfare of, you know, a perfectly decorated home is going to look a certain way. And right, like, and it, I just was, it was a very fascinating book for me because I think, I think it's, it was uncomfortable to see myself in the like, mean, judgmental kind of way that Aiden, it was. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I thought it was really effective as a book for that reason. Yeah. The best of romance does that, right? Like, flips the way we think of a character on its head and shows us that they are worthy of, and like worthy of like, if you want to put glitter on your fucking pine cone to me, you go for it. Like, why am I judging? Why do I care? Right? Why am I in it? And I'm I in it. And I was, it was just a really, it was a, it was really a fascinating book to me. I really, I really found myself being truly like one over by, by the journey that I went on reading it. So I think also there is, so we've talked about kind of like, characters who are irredeemable to each other, characters who are irredeemable to the communities within the books, characters who are, you know, irredeemable by their actions. I think that I want to talk just briefly about, like, characters who perceive themselves as irredeemable by virtue of like, their own baggage. And the book that I think does this so well, that is a real favorite of mine is Angelina Lopez's After Hours on Melagro Street, because in that book, the heroine of that book, she's a real bitch. Yeah. Right? I mean, a real bitch, and like has left her home in Kansas City and moved to Chicago, where she is like, kind of known as like this like queen bitch of the bartenders of Chicago. And then she like fails at her job. And she sort of has to go home, tail tucked between her legs, like, and she is sure that no one at home loves her. So sure of it that when she gets there, she sort of like makes it true. Interesting. And I think this is really interesting because her care, it's so she sort of abandoned her family. And so they have moved on and not like, look, families never moved on from abandonment, like, but they've moved on in the way that they have, she gets back and they're all sort of like, well, welcome back, but there's sort of an edge of cool, there's a chill in the air for her. And what she discovers there is of course, that they have embraced this like white guy, who is also an academic, who is there doing like academic research on like the history of her family and her their town and bar, right? And he lives in their house with them. He lives above the bar. He is beloved by her grandmother, who she sort of, the heroin sort of perceives has abandoned her. And so, and in this case, we've got a character who is irredeemable because she has made herself so, right? She has built the walls that make her aloof and impenetrable and unlovable, if like, if that's a word that we're using. And then she has to learn to return to community. Yeah. And he helps her do that by virtue of loving this community that she needs to return to. But I think, you know, Angelina does something. So we talk about Angelina a lot when we talked about unlikeable heroines or like characters who readers struggle to love. But in this case, this is really a character who is struggling to love herself and struggling to see herself as redeemable. Yeah. But in a different way than like a classic romance hero who like doesn't deserve love, you know, right, right. And I think that that's another way that we see this, this story of atonement come back around. Like she really does feel like she has to atone, even as she resists atoning. I find those books when it's like a woman who sort of right, like sort of saying to herself like, I don't deserve love or I don't write like I'm the one, I'm the baddie. Yeah, essentially, you know, those can be really hard, difficult for me to read. Because I, it's just like not why I come to romance to like sort of see, I mean, and I think the part of the reason why is I don't, I'm not saying like any woman should be above like sort of self, you know, like kind of knowing themselves or like kind of knowing their own, you know, like strengths or weaknesses. But there's a really fine line there for me when it becomes like self-legulation, that it's just like too much, right? It's too hard. And so I think those are books that can be, you know, really, really tricky. Yeah. I mean, it's a very, very difficult needle to thread. I mean, I personally think Angelina is one of the few who does it. Oh, yeah. So well. I mean, but it's a very difficult, it's difficult. You know, I think this is also, yeah, it's just easier. It's more palatable with MF also with men. Yeah, right, exactly. You know, we sort of expect men to be unpleasant. Apologies to the men in the crowd, but we just do. You know, but I also think like, man, this comes back to the age old question of romance, which is the way we forgive men. Like, you know, I, as you know, I'm a huge Piki blinders fan. And there is, and there was, you know, there are whatever, five seasons, I think of Piki blinders. And then there was recently a movie. And there is a revelation about something that Tommy Shelby does. Like he, he, he, he does something really terrible in the movie, or at least there's, there's sort of a reveal that he's done something really terrible. Actually, there are a couple of things that he does that are really terrible in the movie, including, I guess, is it, is it far enough out from the movie? I'm going to, I'm going to spoil it everybody. So just skip forward a minute if, you know, if you don't want to be spoiled, but he, it is revealed that he kills his brother, his like best friend, the man who has been by his side like for five seasons is not in the film. Yeah. He's not in the film. And the reason why he's not in the film is because he's dead and we're led to believe, you know, whatever reason. And that's actually what has happened to the brother. And it's, and Eric turned to me in the moment and he said, well, that's the end of Tommy. Like you can't, and you were like, you can't forgive that. And it's, it's a brutal scene, right? Like we see it. Yeah. And I was like, well, but I mean, tell me, show me. And he's like, Sarah, Sarah. And I mean, truly, that is the correct answer. The correct answer is, yeah, Sarah. Yeah. But is, so I guess my question is like, is it, it's a chicken and an egg question. Like, have I, are, am I wired this way? And that is why I like these characters in romance novels, or are these characters in romance novels the way, the reason I am wired this way? I mean, sure. We will never know. We will never know. It's nature versus nurture, the romance version. You know, sometimes I wonder, is this like very like the idea of like redemption or whatever? Is this like a very like, is this too Christian coded? Right? Like, I'm like, I'm not even Christian anymore. Right? Like if you're like listening right now and you're not Christian, are you like, you all are like crazy, right? And I don't know that I, maybe it is, but I guess I also think like, if the idea that like sort of like loving someone makes you better, and that, you know, that they're, if you hurt someone, they're some sort of like, they're some sort of like cosmic, you know, kind of way that if you want to really prove that you are, you're deserving of love or deserving of whatever that like you have to, you have to like make restitution, you have to like make someone whole, you have to write like whatever it is, like the metaphor, I don't actually think that that's just Christianity. And I think like to me, that's why like, I think though, like I in order for me to be interested in a book, I think the things that will get me to like, kind of DNF in a situation like with a character who's presented as irredeemable is if there's like no sense at all, that they are willing to change, right? Like I think like irredeemable is a place you start in a romance, but I'm not super interested in it being a place you end up, that's just like breaking bad or whatever, right? And yeah, exactly, right? Like I think you have to, to me, like right, like the redeeming power of romance, like at its core is this idea that like loving people, not even just romantic love, loving people makes you better, right? This is in the essence of our humanity. We can't know what's going to happen to us after our lives are over. So we all we can do is like be there for the people in our lives. It's Ebenezer's privilege, right? It's like, yes, you wake up on Christmas day, and you send the boy to get the goose, because there is always a chance to start fresh. And I think like that's why in some ways the characters who like can't forgive themselves are interesting, I think are like fan favorites, right? So when you think about like Black Dagger Brotherhood, for example, like the one with Zetas or whatever, right? Drama queen, you know, but like people love that book. That's real love that book because, listen, I've read my character a million times too, and I listen. I'm just saying people love a hero who's like, I'm not worthy of her love, of her light, of her identity, of her world, of her, I'm not, she's so far above me, I can't even see her, right? People love that shit, but the reality is none of those men are irredeemable, right? Yeah, of course not. Well, because they have each other, right? The guys who's like down in the muck, like having done some mad shit. I mean, I don't know, maybe you don't really want it, but in this, if this is the trope you are looking for, then what you are looking for is like, you have to be willing to accept that he has done some bad shit. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's interesting, right? Because it does, you started this episode by saying we're not going to talk about dark romance, and we're not, but you know, I think about Mafia Madman, right? Which is like, it's Joanne, Milafinelli's, Joanna Shoup slash Milafinelli's, the third in her mafia, her first mafia series, and like, this is Enzo, who is, has been tortured, we've seen him tortured on page, he is exacting revenge against the people who harmed him. He basically kidnaps the daughter of his enemy, enemy keeps her in a cage, like is, and they fall in love. And the reality is, is like, he had, we have seen him do terrible shit. And this is probably the closest I get to accepting that at the end, he is still going to do terrible shit. He's just not going to do terrible shit to her family. Right, you know, yeah. So I think there's, you know, that's probably as, as close to dark as I'm willing to get, because for this particular topic, because I think in order for Irredeemable, I think when we're talking about this kind of character, this Irredeemable character, in romance, what we actually are looking for is redemption. Like, Yes. Like you said, it's too static a character if we don't see the shift. Right. Well, and I think like a really good example for me, and I think this is why you and I both love A Heart of Blood and Ashes, right, is, and I think the other thing, yes. And but he, I mean, I think the other thing that is really fascinating about this book is like, he also will not listen to her. Right, he is like decided, this tongue. Yes. And I think about this all the time, because I think the other thing you have to really like, and this is I think the difference between like a book that works and a book that doesn't in this like space is like, okay, so a man, I'm just not going to really be interested that long, a man who just like cannot alter his worldview at all. Right, like only sees things a certain way. Right. And I think like the fact that this book essentially shows them falling in love with him still like clinging so tight to this idea that like he knows how the world works. And then, you know, like it could, it could go too far. It could. And instead, right, he figures, he figures it out in time, right, like he like sort of like, it's like, you know, I always think of it as being like, essentially like a, you know, pilot who's like at the last minute, like pulls up and like, you know, manages to write like a void crashing. And I think the thing about books like this is they really are like this real tightrope because if you have that go on too long, right, if you have his inability to like sort of see her pain and her anguish and realize that he was, he's wrong about her, right, I am wrong about her, then, right, then you can see, and I think that's it, like the most powerful romances are the ones where you can see like, this really could have turned out a different way. The HA is not inevitable, right? And I think like for, you know, to me, like the irredeem, you know, she's seen a certain way, but like for me as a reader, like his inability to just like, fuck him, listen to her, can you just listen to her, right? What if I sent that on the Voyager out into space? I mean, maybe like Dragon School or whatever. You know, I think you can't send fantasy out there. No, I don't, I think, I think they'd be like, what the fuck is on this planet? And then they get here and they'd be real bummed. They'd be like, what? I mean, we're going to be a disappointment anyway. So you got to set the bar kind of low. I think not every character has to be irredeemable, but I think like the larger thing here is like, if we can continue to contract the, like what we, what readers feel is the acceptable amount of bad that a character can be, right? Then you're just like sucking the lifeblood out of all of the conflict, right? Also, mistakes are human, everybody. I mean, we may, and some, and we all make, we all make mistakes. And many of us make huge mistakes over the course of our lives. And like, we have to be willing to explore those mistakes. That's what makes us human. Right, right. Like, and still worthy of love. And I think, I mean, not like Tommy, don't do what Tommy Shelby did. Well, I mean, but it's interesting though, like, because this is what Michael Corleone does. And it is unforgivable, right? We see him, you're like smiling, you don't think so? Obviously, obviously it is. Like, obviously. It doesn't make you, you know, not want to. Smooth some. Yeah. Okay, I support you. I support you. Yeah, I don't know. I'll be showing you, he just needs love. He just needs love, Jen. Well, his wife died in a fire or something. I don't know. The problem, everybody is like, this is the problem. The I can fix him problem. The can I pet that dog? See, and I'm just like, no, put him back in the cage. But Tommy Shelby back in the can anyway, spoken to somebody who is not watched Peeky Blinders. But I've watched, I did, I've watched some of it. So that's all we have for you today, everyone, and possibly ever. I'm Sarah McLean. I am here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are fated mates. We love the moon. And one of us loves Tommy Shelby. And we do love an erudite mobile character here at fated mates. So well, because I don't have to live with them. Not my husband. That's simply not my business. We're all happy together. You can find us every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. And if you'd like more of us and who wouldn't like more of us, you can head over to Patreon at patreon.com slash fated mates and join our Patreon, which will get you access to our fated mates discord, where you can meet romance novel friends and readers to talk about books 24 seven. And then also you get another episode every month of Jen and me talking about whatever we're talking about on that episode. You can also find us on threads at fated mates pod on Instagram at fated mates pod on Instagram at fated mates pod and on blue sky at fated mates. And um, yeah, we love you all copy moon joy copy moon joy so