#371 - Occult Expert: NEW Epstein Files, BAAL & Church of Satan | Peter Levenda

Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life shopify helps millions of business sell online build fast with templates and ai descriptions and photos inventory and shipping sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl that's shopify.nl it's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Peter LaVenda, thank you for coming. How did you get into all of this history and the occult, Nazis, UFOs and everything? Yeah, well, I was born in the Bronx, which probably explains about 50% of your question because in the Bronx we got everybody, we got everything going on, we got all kinds of stuff. And back in the, you know, I grew up in the 50s and 60s, so it was, you know, duck and cover days. We thought we were going to get bombed by the Russians. There was going to be, you know, all this stuff. So you learned about the Cold War was a major thing. I grew up Catholic at the time, so you're in church praying for the conversion of the Russians to Christianity because they're godless communists. Oh, wow. Right? So you're being sort of indoctrinated with this idea that politics and religion are almost the same thing. I mean, I'm in church praying against communists. We're doing these monthly sessions and all of this. And I'm thinking, you know, eventually I'm growing up and I'm hiding from Russian bombs. We're ducking under our desks when they do the air raid sirens. All this stuff, you're growing up with that. And the McCarthy era. And then suddenly out of nowhere comes Jack Kennedy, right? And now suddenly it's like a brand new day. Jack Kennedy is saying, no, we're going to straighten this out. And then there's the Cuban Missile Crisis, right? So we're living through the Cuban Missile Crisis. And at any moment we think it's going to be mutual assured destruction. We're all going to die, right? But I had a friend in school who was totally 100% convinced we're all going to die. And I bet him $1 million. dollars. This was in 1961, 62, Cuban Missile Crisis. I bet him one million dollars that Kennedy would get us out of it. For some reason, I thought Kennedy was the man. It was the first time I became politically aware, focused on a politician, you know, focused on a person who was not Jesus or, you know, the Soviets. And this guy was going to do it. And, you know, I never got, I never collected the million. I'm still owed, right? But, you know, Tommy hey, hey, if you're listening, you owe me that million dollars. But it was this idea, this combination of intense emotional upheaval, because, you know, there's the bomb and we could all die. And then there's the church. There was that aspect of it. And then as I got older, I started to become fascinated by this thing. How much does church and state influence each other in a country where there's supposed to be a division, right? and of course there's no real division the division is there in terms of laws that we enact we can't persecute a religion right but we have political leaders who quite often were very religious and that's kind of scary to me right because i grew up with all that stuff and when i see a political leader of any kind expressing a lot of religious sentiment i i sort of pull back and i get a little worried like what is this what does this mean like Reagan for instance the evil empire and all this stuff that he really believed this was going on there was just like a war between light and darkness with the Soviet Union, that kind of thinking and then I started pulling at it a little bit and realized that he belonged to the same denomination as Jim Jones of Jonestown Reagan? yeah, Reagan they both belonged to one church that was called, I think, the Disciples of Christ and they belonged to the same They had this, you know, end of times belief that at any moment the world was going to end, Jesus would come down, you know, separate the sinners from the non-sinners, etc., etc. So this, you know, opened my eyes as well. The assassination of Jack Kennedy was a big deal. But then we have Vietnam. So now I'm coming of age. I turned 18 in 1968, the year of the Tet Offensive. So I have to register for the draft, right? Before that happens, a school friend of mine and I, we get together. Another friend, not the guy who owes me a million dollars. But another guy gets together. We say, listen, we're not interested in going to Vietnam. The whole thing reeks of, you know, something that we really shouldn't be doing, bombing villagers with napalm and stuff. How do we get out of this, right? Well, I mean, you can go to Canada. You can go to Sweden or something. These are all these things that the objectors would go that way. But we're poor kids from the Bronx. We don't know from going anywhere. But one thing did occur to me, and I used to read Fate magazine religiously. This was like an occult-oriented magazine. It's still around, I think. But in those days, everybody read this. They held the stories about seances, about UFOs. Everything was in this magazine. So as you're growing up, if you're a teenager, you're kind of reading this stuff. And in the back of that magazine, there was always an ad for the Universal Life Church. You know, you join this church for like $5, and they give you a certificate and say you're a minister, right? You just mail it in. They send you this piece of paper. And I did that at one point, right? I was like 15 or 16 years old. And I did that, and I got that piece of paper. But I realized I can't really use this to get out of Vietnam, right? It's a little too flimsy. So I'm talking to my friend, and he's totally involved in the Catholic Church. He's got vestments, priestly vestments. He has monsters, a chalice, all this stuff that you need to conduct mass in a church because he was like a fanatic about this stuff. His backstory is very long. I won't get into it. But anyway, that gave us an idea. I said, why don't we create our own church? Just incorporate it as a church in the state of New York. And we make ourselves ministers of this church. And we get the so-called clerical deferment. it was a 4D deferment and that meant that you could not be drafted to go into the army because you were a minister, you were a clergyman the thing is it has to be legal we have to legally set up this church and we did that so now all these little various threads are coming together so now we have this incorporation we've incorporated a church and my friend was a very sort of theatrical kind of person. And he liked a lot of attention. Me, I was the opposite kind. I said, let me just do the paperwork, you know. But he wanted to do the thing with the robes and the hats and all of this. And he said, listen, we're going to do this. Bobby Kennedy had just been assassinated in California. And for me, Bobby Kennedy was like, he was the guy who was going to set everything right, you know. so this was the disaster that Bobby was assassinated but they were having his funeral in New York in St. Patrick's Cathedral so my friend says to me we're going to go to that funeral and I said you've got to be out of your freaking mind the tightest security that New York has ever seen will be there because everybody's going to be there it's a Kennedy assassination another Kennedy assassination do you think anybody's getting in to the church that's not already pre-approved to get in there. The president's going to be there. The Senate, Congress, everybody's going to be there. Celebrities, the place is going to be packed with people. It's going to be a major terrorist target, right? An assassination target. And he says, no, we're going to brass it out. So we had the robes, the crosses, the hats, the whole thing. Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox style. We rent a limo and we drive up to the church. and we get out of the limo and they just walk us right in. Just seeing the limo and us leaving it with the gold and nobody questioned us at all. And that opened my mind to so many different avenues all at once. Number one, what the hell is going on? They should never have let us in here. This is ridiculous. But the Secret Service physically brought us into the church. Wow. They physically said, are you Greek Orthodox representatives? And I said, no, we're Russian Orthodox, Slavonic Orthodox representatives. You even corrected them. Oh, yeah, with an accent. That's amazing. Slavonic Orthodox representatives. You would have made for a great spy. That's what they keep telling me. So we got in, and we hold the rest of this history. We got out of that church after the funeral. I won't go into all the details. I did it, I think, on other interviews. But we get out and we bump into this other weirdly dressed clergyman in front of the church who did not get into the church. And I'm talking about really weirdly dressed, like one step above homeless, but with religious stuff on him, you know. And he says to us, oh, what church are you from? And we'd sort of tell him. And he hands us these flyers for a church in the Bronx. And he says, you have to come up and see us. And it was called the American Orthodox Catholic Church. and we said to ourselves, well, this could help give us some cover too. Let's just go and check this out, right? And then we check out this church and this is 1968. We were kids. We knew next to nothing. My friend had just turned 18. I was still 17. I would turn 18 later on that year. And we don't know from Adam what's going on here, but this church was a front, a really nice front. You know, they had a church building. They had a beautiful house, several stories, which in the Bronx was, you know, on a piece of land. In the Bronx, it's incredible, impossible. And it was run by this Ukrainian bishop who had been a major anti-communist crusader during the 40s and 50s. He used to appear on television in New York, promoting all kinds of stuff, but really virulently anti-Russian, anti-Soviet, anti-communist. And now he's running a church. Okay. And it turns out, to make a long story short, that this is the same church that David Ferry and Jack Martin belonged to. Now, if you remember the movie JFK, Kevin Costner's film on the assassination, Jack Martin was played by Jack Lemmon. And David Ferry was played by Joe Pesci. Okay, David Ferry had the weird wigs and stuff, and he was always chain-smoking, and he was like in a constant state of nervous collapse because of his association with Clay Shaw and with the assassination and all of that. Jack Lemmon worked out of the same office as Lee Harvey Oswald had in New Orleans when he was in New Orleans and got arrested for the fair play for Cuba stuff. So these two individuals, the Jack Lem and Joe Pesci guys, Jack Martin and David Ferry, were bishops in this church in the Bronx. I did not know this at the time, obviously. What year is this again? 68. 68. Ferry died during the investigation by Jim Garrison. So he died as the investigation was going on. Jack Martin didn't die. Jack Martin lived way into the 70s. And I didn't know that they were actually, I mean, I suspected there were connections later on as I got older. And I started doing the Sinister Forces volume and stuff like that. All of that research. I began to suspect there was a connection, but I couldn't prove it. Until Jim Garrison's files were released and declassified. And they're just out on the internet. And you start going through the files and there it is. you know there's the stationery i used to type on when i was at that church acting as a secretary there asking for you know jim garrison to please return jack martin when you're done with him you know stuff like that i'm thinking holy shit you know this was it i was there right there you know in in the heartbed of this thing and garrison himself and all of his letters to congress when they were reopening all these cases said you got to look into these weird churches because I have no clue what they're all about, but they're all over this thing, right? They're all over the assassination. They're all over all kinds of intelligence stuff. So I became aware of all of this, and I'm building this research on it. So I figure I have to go back to the Warren Commission reports, and I'm going through not the summary, but the whole thing. I'm looking at the assassination information, right? Like, what is all this about? and it turns out that Ruth Payne was starting to give testimony on the assassination. She was a central figure because Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald, and their kids stayed with Ruth Payne in Dallas and it was Ruth Payne who kind of got him the job at the Texas School Book Depository, right? What is the connection with Ruth Payne and Andre Pruharic? That's what I'm getting to, right there. So that's the, you're asking me the background. This is why I got so involved in all of this. I didn't really want to be involved in all of this. I'm not like a politically oriented person. I was not like that involved in politics. But growing up and seeing all of this, you know, firsthand, and then finding yourself just accidentally, you know, walking into areas where these people are meeting and discussing and carrying out these things, you start to question reality itself. and you're asking yourself, how does this work, right? How do two 17-year-olds, 18-year-olds walk into this church, which is like decades later being revealed as kind of a hotbed of this intelligence activity? I mean, I knew what was going on in the church, but I didn't know the half of it. I only knew what I saw. There was no Internet. There was no way to search all these people. You had to go to the library and start going through archives. And as I'm reading and researching all of that, And this is having a big effect on me because I'm seeing people. Like, holy shit, I'm a part of this movie. Well, yeah, I find that out much later. I mean, I'm watching the film and I'm thinking, and there's a brief photograph, if you catch it in the film, the Kevin Costner film, of David Ferry's apartment. And he's pulling out religious clothing from a closet, right? All these, if you don't know what it is when you're looking at it, you'll not know. And then there's a photograph of Ferry dressed as a bishop, right? and the bishop hat he's wearing is this round kind of hat which is the orthodox hat which comes from this orthodox thing that he was involved with that's it that's not david's very no david's very that's my friend that's my school friend the tall guy right when that picture was taken he was only 19 years old and he's taken a picture next to this guy next to him that's a 19 year old Yeah. Good Lord. Yeah. And next to him is Archbishop Krikhory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which leads us into a whole other story. But what happened was, what he did, is he validated our fake church and made it a real church. So he then became a real bishop in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church as well as our own invented Slavonic Orthodox Church. Right? Wow. And then he died mysteriously when the wall came down and Ukraine was free. The reason is Krihori died. The old guy died. Yeah. Okay. He was in position now to become the head of his church because he had been consecrated by him. He was validly ordained and consecrated bishop. But he wasn't Ukrainian. Didn't really speak Ukrainian. Spoke Czech and Slovak and a little Greek pretty well because of the Greek Orthodox Church stuff. but I don't believe he ever spoke Ukrainian. And he was just not a Ukrainian. So the wall comes down. The Ukrainians now are free. They want their churches back, right, including the ones in the United States. He's the only thing standing in their way. And he dies mysteriously of an arsenic poisoning in the Bronx. You know, so. As one does. As one does. Amanita Mascaria is the third most popular microdose psychedelic in the U.S. With 3 million people reportedly using it. But with the recent wave of dangerous gas station fakes out there, who knows how many people have been cheated out of the real deal. Personally, I trust only Amintara. I never would have touched Amanita Mascaria if it weren't for Amintara. Many headshot products have synthetics, unreliable sources, or don't even contain actual mushroom. and it damages our perception of the real thing. Amantara is the complete and total opposite. They are the largest Amanita supplier in the U.S., totally legal, ethically sourced, lab tested, and they work directly with foraging families around the world. This isn't a side hustle or a scam. It's a serious operation. Real Amanita tastes natural, like a tea, not an artificial chemical, and the experience feels clean and not weird with no edge or synthetic vibe. I take a few of these capsules when I get home after work, and it honestly makes a house full of screaming toddlers no problem for me. If you could imagine being in an extremely chaotic, high-stress environment and not feeling triggered, that's what Amanita feels like. If you're curious about Amanita, don't go grab something random off the gas station counter. Use the legitimate and trusted professionals. Amintar's 500-milligram capsules and gummies are consistent and beginner-friendly. Two to three capsules is a great starting point. Check out the gentle, relaxing effects of Amanita Muscaria. Go to amintara.com slash go slash DJ and use my code DJ22 for 22% off your first order. Again, that's amintara.com slash go slash DJ. And don't forget to use the code DJ22 for 22% off your first order. So what you're talking about is a very complicated, very interwoven web of connections and people. And when you're in the middle of that, you have not too many directions to go. Either everything is a conspiracy or everything is coincidence, right? Right. So the coincidence story, let's face it, it's not going to fly. The problem is the conspiracy theory doesn't really work either because people are brought together in ways that defy any human planning. Like, how the hell did I wind up there? Makes no sense. I barely graduated high school at the time, right? I had all kinds of issues going on. So I barely graduate high school. And yet I'm in this church. I'm dressed like he is, basically. And we're conducting services and we're doing all this in a church that has no parishioners. Never had a parishioner. So it's just us in the front of the church doing all these services and the place is empty. But you have to keep up appearances, right? because our fearless leader, the Ukrainian, not him, but the Ukrainian guy, Archbishop Profeta, who founded this operation, was an intelligence asset. He was a friend of J. Edgar Hoover. He was going to be the White House chaplain if Dewey had won the election against Harry Truman. I mean, this is how plugged in this guy was. I'm missing, what is the overall function that this church is providing? Cover. How so? If you send somebody abroad, let's say you're CIA. Okay. Now, CIA kind of has to alert people when they're moving people into foreign embassies abroad. Let's look at it from that point of view. Right. So you're like, you're in charge of, you know, arts and crafts or something at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. Okay. And everybody's looking at you like, right, yeah, sure, arts and crafts. We know you're CIA, right? You know you're a local chief of station, right? That's kind of like a given. Everybody kind of knows. Those people are declared, though, right? They're declared. Right. But then you have the NOCs, the non-official cover guys. Right. And those usually are sent in to do something dirty, right? They're either setting up intelligence networks or maybe something even worse. They get busted. They're deniable. Right. Now there's in the middle, right? You can give agents in foreign countries. They're not real CIA agents, okay? They're, you might say, contract agents. Or maybe they're just being manipulated by the intelligence agencies. And they kind of know they're being manipulated. They're going along for the ride. We had a guy, for instance, I'll give you an example. We had a guy from Nigeria during the Biafra Civil War, if you remember this all the way back in the 60s. But there was a group in Nigeria that was in revolt against the Nigerian government. The Nigerian government was basically Muslim, and these people were Christians. Okay. So this is a very frantic civil war that's going on. The Catholic Church is there trying to defend one side against the other. So what happens is we get a visitor. I have to pick him up, actually, at Kennedy Airport. The Holy Prophet Alouya. That was his name. That's a good name. H.P. Alouya. Holy Prophet H.P. Alouya. That was his name. I'm not making this up. I meet him at the airport and he's dressed in total African garb. And we bring him to the church in the Bronx. And he's in the church in the Bronx for like two days, maybe. He's only there to be consecrated a bishop. We have no knowledge of who this guy is. There's no background on him. He didn't go up through any seminaries that we know anything about. Right. He's just a guy from Nigeria. From the Nigerian side, the anti-Biafran, anti-Christian side. So you're following this? So you bring this guy in, we consecrate him, we make him a bishop. You know, the Holy Prophet Alleluia is now Bishop Holy Prophet Alleluia. We sent him back on the plane back to Nigeria. What the hell was all that about? Right? I'm sitting there watching this thing, and I'm the guy, like, in charge of sort of caretaking him until he's out. And I'm thinking, who the hell is this? Right? He knows nothing about any of this stuff. but it's this church giving him the credentials that he needs to say look there are Christians in the United States that are supporting Nigeria against Biafra so he was just a casual token that we moved on the board so let's send this guy back and he can be the holy prophet he's a bishop, he's respected by all these and who's this consecrating bishop? this famous anti-communist Ukrainian bishop who was going to be the White House chaplain if Dewey had gotten in so these connections are like that and then Dewey might have had something to do with some of this in the background as well because he was so fond of Profeta it's really hard to say I don't have access to all the documents I need to show that connection but J. Edgar Hoover was definitely part of this and that got verified by contacts later as I did research all over the place, even in Florida. There was a bishop not too far from here who's passed away, but he was very involved in some of this operation as well. And he knew that there was all kinds of stuff going on. There was, you know, that the prophetic church was plugged in. It was an intelligence front, probably an FBI front as opposed to a CIA front. But he was definitely a front for intelligence activities. I kept seeing people come in and out, becoming consecrated as bishops. and the local consulate would send people to observe it, which is unusual. And especially in a church where there's no people. These are all private ceremonies, remember. There's no fanfare, there's no processions, there's no big deal, all kinds of people out and having parties, nothing, it's behind closed doors. The ritual takes place, I guess because you need witnesses. The ritual takes place, it does take place. It's not just, I'll mail you a piece of paper. They have to come in, has to be done, they go back. One was Italian during the time when we were, there was this big fight against communism in Italy with the elections and everything else. So we consecrated some guy and sent him back to Italy. We were doing this all over the world. So when you're asking me my, how do I get into all this? I mean, it's because I was just in the middle of it. You know, I just sort of Forrest Gumped my way through. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Basically, that's all it was. but then I became a little sharper on it and I started to collect information I started to pay attention and I started to do the research when research became available the internet helped in that but before the internet I had to go to the National Archives in Washington I had to do research on the ground that way very painstakingly with documents microfilm, microfiche, all that kind of stuff just kind of start putting it together and realize that this was a much deeper story than it was simply a conspiracy of a bunch of guys in the back room saying we're going to do this or that. My showing up at the church was not part of a conspiracy. It kind of looks like that. But I was 17. How much of an agent could I be at 17 and broke, right, in the Bronx? So, and we had a, there was a method to our madness was to not go to Vietnam. And that worked, right? The short answer to all of that is that worked. I got the deferment, the 4D deferment. I was fine. I was golden. but the guy who gave me the deferment was the head of Secret Service in New York a guy called Colonel Kirschenbaum never forget this guy don't know what he was a colonel of but Colonel Kirschenbaum and he had a nice office at Federal Center downtown and he had patches on his elbows he was like an Alan Dulles looking character and he said okay no problem We're going to give you the deferment. But we know that the Russians have been moving spies into this country as Orthodox priests. Keep an eye on that and report back to us. And you're gold. You're fine. And my friend also got the deferment. Just report back to us when you know that the Soviets are moving in agents. And they were doing that. This was no joke. This was something everybody was aware of. We were aware of it just because we could tell when somebody came into the Russian Orthodox Church that didn't know what he was doing, that he was trained like in the basic stuff and not in the rest of it. There's stuff that you have to learn in ordination that's considered very sacred to the church. They're not going to give it to an agent. I mean, even that church, which was pretty much compromised by the communists, would not have done it. So there were certain ways we could tell. and if you ever watched a television series called The Americans which was very popular for a while it was about Russian agents, sleeper agents living in the United States the last season of that very long series showed the Russian agents as priests manipulating stuff in the United States fake priests basically but actually KGB agents so finally I was watching this entire series hoping they would get to that point, and they finally did. But this is what was going on. So there's another level to this, right? The Orthodox churches were nationalist churches, mostly behind the Iron Curtain. Russian Orthodox Church, right? All the churches in Eastern Europe and Central Europe, these were all behind the Iron Curtain, but they were Christian churches, right? So they were compromised. The Ukrainian Church, a very big church in the United States, compromised because of the Communist Association. so they're trying to divide themselves away from the Soviet stuff going on back in the Soviet Union but they're always under suspicion the Russian Orthodox is the same way there were at least three different Orthodox groups in the United States one was czarist which was violently anti-communist one was the church from Moscow which was riddled through with agents and one was kind of an American crossbreed which was trying to stay aloof from both sides So it was very political in those days. We don't appreciate that now, but it was extremely political. The church stuff was very political. And the Soviet Union was manipulating the Orthodox Church as much as they could to move agents into the United States. Yeah. And now it's kind of happening again, right, under Putin. So there is this kind of... It's happening right now? Oh, yeah. Putin has completely sort of... I don't know what the word is to use. he has violated in a sense the Russian Orthodox Church the head of the Russian Church is now claiming all the other Orthodox Churches are no good, that the Patriarch in Constantinople who is kind of the leader of all the Orthodox is like a puppet of you know, Western influence or something I mean, the whole speeches are designed this way to promote the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia as against the Orthodox Churches in the rest of the world So that kind of thing is happening. There was this, when Putin came to power, he had a guy called Alexander Dugan, who was sort of a weird, you know, occult-minded, conspiracy kind of guy as well. And he was really propping up the Orthodox Church as being the answer to the world's problems, the Russian Orthodox Church. And Putin and the Orthodox Church, Dugan, they all got, you know, very chummy together. and the idea was to really move the Russian church as the primary church. This is probably going to put a lot of your people to sleep, all of this internecine stuff. But what I'm trying to get to the point is that the churches can be manipulated and they are places of belief as opposed to facts or science or anything else. So you have belief systems that you can kind of manipulate if you know what you're doing. And if you're an intelligence operative of some kind, if you're an intelligence agency the churches are very valuable they were the CIA during the Cold War the churches were very valuable the CIA oversees this is not a mystery any longer after the revelations in the 1970s the various commissions that were set up to investigate CIA that all kind of came out there was a lot of manipulation going on a lot of handshaking essentially not necessarily that they were actual agents or contract agents even, but there was influence between the churches and intelligence when it was necessary to do so. This episode of the podcast is sponsored by Liquid IB. Last week, I had one of those marathon days, early morning workout podcast, followed by a kid's soccer game, and then capping it off with a date night. And it's days like those where you quickly start to realize it's not about starting strong. It's about staying sharp all day long. By the time the game started, I was starting to feel drained and irritable with a slight headache starting to kick in. Then came the LOP, nausea, brain fog, fatigue, and all the signs of mild dehydration. And that's why I bring a packet of Liquid IV everywhere I go. And now Liquid IV has led a significant breakthrough in sugar-free hydration science with their hydration multiplier sugar-free. Just one stick in 16 ounces of water hydrates way better than water alone. Powered by LIV Hydra Science, an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins, and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Liquid IV is the only sugar-free hydration product clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone. Zero sugar, three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, and eight essential vitamins. It helps increase fluid availability and retains hydration for up to four hours. I keep packets in my gym bag, my carry-on, my golf bag. Tear, pour, done. My favorite flavors are the strawberry and the watermelon. If you've got long days where you need to be on from start to finish, this is it. Show up start to finish with hydration from Liquid IV Hydration Multiplier, sugar-free. Tear, pour, and live more. Go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first order with the code DANNY at checkout. Again, that's 20% off your first order with code DANNY at liquidiv.com. I don't know if you've noticed this, like, recent resurgence in Christianity in Silicon Valley. Yes. That's been happening. And with characters like Peter Thiel having conferences on the Antichrist and stuff like this. I can't help think about that. Of course. Because they realize that, you know, you can try to convince people about politics, but they go to sleep on you. Right. you start, you go to any, like when we were kids, kids, teenagers, you know, SDS would have meaning Students for Democratic Society. The Weathermen came out of that group. It was a kind of a quasi-terrorist or guerrilla organization. You would listen to these discussions of socialism and communism and you'd want to shoot yourself. I mean, it was just, you know, it's extremely technical. It's extremely, and everybody has their point of view and they're arguing over points of order and terminology. You go into a church and the message is like front and center. And there is no deviation. There is no discussion. There is no controversy. You're not arguing theology in the churches, right? If you ever did that, that was in seminary. You got it out of your system then. Now you're in church. There is no argument. There's only one message. Eventually, the tech bros discovered that this really works really well, right? If we're going to discuss politics and economics and everything else, we're going to lose people. But religion is simple. It's easy. And you can make it represent anything you want. Like, who's the whore of Babylon, right? Who's the great beast in Revelation, right? Anybody you want it to be, right? You can characterize anybody as the great beast. So that kind of association is so simple in the churches because people just sit there and they drink it in. They believe it. Of course. They don't go to political meetings and sit there and drink it in that same way. It just doesn't happen that way. There's got to be some entertainment value. You know, you've got to be made to feel something. So, yes, to me, that's what I've been writing about virtually all my life, is this dangerous nexus, this connection between politics and religion. And occultism, the esoteric stuff, is right sort of in the middle of all of that, right? Because they're dealing with the inner workings of what religion is. And at the same time, the inner workings of what politics is. because you're talking about how does that work? How do I convince these people that, I don't know, Jerry Seinfeld is the great beast. How do I convince people that? How do I draw connections, stupid things like that? Just make it up, right? How do you do that? You do it by manipulating symbols and the emotional attachment people have to certain symbols. You wave the American flag, everybody has an emotional reaction. Right. You show a swastika, everybody has an emotional reaction to it. That was the genius behind that, right? What political party has a symbol that everybody knows? And when they see it, they right away have a reaction to it, an immediate emotional reaction, a visceral reaction. They see a cross, the same thing, right? Star of David, same thing. So you're starting to get these symbols. The symbols have power. and this is something that let's call them the tech let's say Silicon Valley in general has begun to realize because all they deal with are symbol systems and symbol sets that's the whole basis of the internet of artificial intelligence and everything else the large language models right we're dealing with symbol sets what does this symbol mean how can we parse it out and make it mean a lot of different things right to make communication faster to make it easier right we attach an emotional value to it and right away people will click on it. When you're farming for engagement, people are clicking on what is emotionally resonant with them. A lot of words are not going to do it, but an emotional symbol of some kind will do it. Memes. Memes, sure. Occultism is steeped in that from the very beginning. If you look at the grimoires, the spell books of the occultists going back to the Middle Ages, for instance, it's all memes, it's all it is. It's symbol after symbol after symbol. And sometimes the symbols are associated with a god or with a devil or with love or hate or war or money or something. It's the idea of associating a desire with something rather more abstract. I want to get to all this stuff. Let's go back to where we were. I want to definitely touch on the occult stuff and the religious stuff. but we were on your path or you were explaining the connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina when they came back after they defected, after he defected the, what was it, the second time? Yeah. Well, yeah, no. Well, he only defected once, but yeah. I thought he was a two-time defector. No, once. Really? Yeah. Huh. And then he was staying with that woman who was interviewed on the Warren Commission, right? Bruce Payne. Ruth Payne, and this whole world is somehow connected to Andre Pujaric. Yeah. Well, everything we've discussed so far, now when we get to this story, it all starts to make a bit more sense. Okay. Because here's Ruth Payne. She's a Quaker. She's a housewife. She's married to Michael Payne, but they're kind of separated. I don't know if they were legally divorced at that point, but she's living alone, he's living alone in Dallas. her father-in-law, the inventor of the Bell helicopter. Okay. The guy who invented the Bell helicopter during World War II. He left Bell helicopter. He decided to turn his back, basically, on engineering and science and devote himself to a study of the occult. That's all he wanted to do. Arthur Young. Arthur Young. There you go. Oh, this is Larry Bell. That's Larry Bell. Arthur Young was the guy who actually was the engineer who designed it. Got it. Okay. So, Arthur Young, his wife is a woman called, also Ruth, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. Okay. So, she had a lot of husbands in the middle there. But she's a Forbes. So, right away, we're talking money, old money, old American money. and Ruth Payne is her daughter-in-law because she married Michael Payne etc. etc. it's all very complicated but anyway it's the same family so Ruth Payne wants to study Russian that's what she says anyway and in order to study Russian why here's this family this Russian family or an American Russian family there's Lee Oswald who had been in Russia he had defected to Russia and went across from Finland into Russia and defected and then came back to the United States. So he defected to Russia and then he left Russia and came to the United States with a Russian-born wife, Marina, who was the niece of a military intelligence colonel in the Russian army. Right. Okay, so he's mobbed up, as you might say. So they come back to Dallas. first he's in you know new orleans where he meets jack he meets david ferry jack martin a guy banister all these these guys he's involved with all of that now he's in dallas and in dallas he needs a job so what happens is he's hanging out with russian expats in dallas which there were a lot because of the oil industry it's another long story and one of them is a is a guy who decides he's going to help him find a job and a place to live and everything else. And introduces him, George DeMoren Schilt is his name, and introduces the Oswalds to Ruth Payne at a party. And Ruth Payne takes them under her wing. And then Ruth Payne gets Oswald a job at the school book depository in Dallas. The rest is history. But Marina stays with her while Lee is out looking for work. So Marina stays with Ruth Payne, teaching her ostensibly Russian. Right? Don't know how much Russian she ever learned in her life, Ruth. But this was the cover story. Okay, she's staying there a few months before the assassination. Marina is staying with Ruth Payne. Ruth Payne goes on vacation to Philadelphia, where the Youngs live. She goes up and visits them. Arthur Young and Arthur Young's wife, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. Ruth Forbes Payne Young is the best friend of, what's her name, Mary Douglas, I believe her name is, who was, or even still at that time, Alan Dulles' mistress. Okay, so it gets very incestuous here. So you have Alan Dulles, head of the CIA. His mistress, Mary Douglas, I believe her name was. Mary Douglas is best friends with Ruth Forbes Payne Young, who's married to Arthur Young, right? And in the midst of all of this, there's Lee Harvey Oswald, right? So Ruth Payne goes up and says, guess what? I've got this Russian defector and his wife living in my house, as if they didn't know. So why is this important? Because you wind all this back to 1952 and 1953, ten years before the assassination. and this cast of characters Arthur Young, Ruth Forbes Payne Young plus an Astor and a DuPont and all these other names from American financial history they're all in one room in Maine in a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere and they're having a seance and there's an Indian gentleman conducting the seance and in the midst of the seance he's causing things to materialize what they call apports. So all of these threads materialize out of nowhere. One for each of the nine people that are at this particular seance. And he's channeling a spiritual force. And the spiritual force says, we are nine, and you are nine. And you're going to be instrumental in controlling the fate of this planet in the future. That's what they're told. Right. And in case anybody doesn't believe me, Andrea Pujaric, who was the guy, who was the chairman of this operation, he was the leader of this group that we're now calling The Nine, he's published all this. He's openly published the notes of this meeting and everything that was being said. A lot of it was recorded on audio, too. And it was, yeah. You can download it. This is weird stuff, right? So this seance is being held, not once, but several times. The one main seance was this one about The Nine. and as it transpires as we know more and more about the nine we understand from whoever's channeling them that they're actually in a saucer in low earth orbit these are aliens of some kind okay and when Puharich brings Uri Geller over to the United States to be tested and everything else and all of us Uri Geller claims also to be in contact with the nine and he's the one who identifies them as also being in a spacecraft of some kind in orbit around the Earth. So all of this is, this is Andrea Pujaric. He was very much involved in finding ways to weaponize telepathy, ESP, and the paranormal in service of the intelligence agencies. He had actually given lectures on this at Edgewood Arsenal during the Korean War era, 52, 53, around the time he was doing this in Maine. He had, I think, a captain's rank in the Army. And he was really actively promoting using the paranormal, essentially what we would call today remote viewing and that kind of stuff, teleportation, all of this. So he's the major figure in the New Age occult movement in the United States. Yeah, and wasn't it? He was also friends with a guy in Israel whose name was Itzhak Bentov. Yes. And I think Bentov introduced him to Geller. Right, that's Bentov. Bentov's got some wild stuff. I've been reading his book, the Wild Pendulum book. It's on another level. That's not what he's talking about. But it makes sense if you're into that stuff. So now we've crossed over. We're mixing the Kennedy assassination with weird churches, with intelligence operations, and now with Andrea Pujaric, Arthur Young, and the Nine, flying saucers, aliens. What else do you want? Yeah. But that wasn't all of it, though. Are you familiar? Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. Not at all. Keep that thought. How familiar are you with the stuff that was going on in New Orleans in regards to the doctor, the guy who was the head of the Cancer Foundation? Oh, yes, sure. Why is his name escaping me? I know. It's just too many names to keep track of. It's the New Orleans. Yeah, the New Orleans doctor. The New Orleans doctor, Alton Ochsner. Ochsner. who was working on the polio vaccine, right? Right. And he was developing the polio vaccine, and they were growing the vaccine on the kidneys of monkeys. And before they went out to market, there was a lady named Bernice Eddy who was doing some tests on it, And she was finding out that when they were injecting these vaccines into other, like, live monkeys to see how it would affect them, they were, like, getting cancer and dying very quickly. They were calling it turbo cancer. And so she, like, went out to everyone and was like, stop, stop, stop. We can't do any more stuff. We have to, like, rework this. he Oshner this is the version of the story I've been told he was really motivated to get this out to market to show everyone how it worked he did this public display at a university in New Orleans where he injected his granddaughter and his grandson with the Salk polio vaccine and I think his granddaughter was paralyzed and his grandson died from that vaccine and the idea is and there's this story about this woman named Mary Sherman who worked at the hospital and there was this LINAC machine that was in the basement of this hospital and she was found I guess the story is she got incinerated by this radioactive LINAC machine and they took her body put it in her apartment, lit her apartment on fire to say that it was a fire that happened in her apartment and in reality Mary David Ferry and Oswald had this clandestine chemistry lab where they were messing around with viruses and these monkey viruses, this SB40 stuff. And the idea was that they were trying to create some sort of a cancer virus to take out Castro or something. Right. Okay, I'm not sure about the Oswald portion of that, but the Ferry-Sherman portion, yeah. Right. I think there's enough evidence to prove that Husferi was fascinated with cancer. He was always trying to develop a cure for cancer. And that's even mentioned in the Kevin Costner film in JFK. Yeah. That he was trying to have a cure for cancer. He had lab rats in his house, like in cages and stuff. He was, you know. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. Apparently they had an apartment that was wall to wall with cages of rats that they were doing these tests with. And the story that I heard was that the purpose of Oswald going to Mexico City and trying to defect to Cuba, I guess he had that virus with him and he was trying to get Castro with it or something. Who knows? That's one of the stories. It's plausible. There's so many flavors of the Kennedy assassination, it's hard to keep grip on. So anyways, I didn't mean to interrupt your train of thought there. No, no, that's great because it brings in the whole idea of the, you know, because we're all talking about these days diseases and vaccines and, you know, should we do it, should we not do it, are they good, are they bad or whatever. Thank God for the polio vaccine because I grew up in that era. Right. And I saw kids, what had happened to them. So, yeah, okay, that was a good thing. Well, luckily after that, I think they fixed it. They went back and reworked it. But that SB40 monkey virus was crazy because it did create that turbo cancer. Right. and look what happened right but what i was going to bring up as well because we're talking about this this interplay of all these different forces the occult stuff the ufo stuff kind of um you know with puharic and then with with all of this there was one other county we haven heard from and that the Fred Crisman story Now Fred Crisman was there was present at like one of the first UFO incidents of the 20th century, I guess you'd call it, at least of the last half of the 20th century, in 1947. Maury Island. There's an island, you know, it's in Washington State, right? and it was a nice day there's a guy sitting on a boat with his son and his dog and he's out there on the water in Puget Sound and something is flying overhead it's in distress it rains shrapnel down on this boat killing the dog wounding the child and scaring the hell out of this guy who's piloting the boat so this guy goes back and talks to his boss, who's like a sort of a Coast Guard kind of guy, not the regular Coast Guard, but some minor official, a guy called Fred Crisman. And he says, this is what happened, right? This thing flew over. It looked really weird. It wasn't a regular aircraft. It was in distress. I don't know if it crashed, but there's all this shrapnel. And the guy says, collect all the shrapnel and let's see what this is. Make a long story short, because these stories are all long, Krisman believes that these are, this is the UFO. This is some kind of flying saucer. Before the term flying saucer was invented, Kenneth Arnold, before Roswell, just about a week or two before Kenneth Arnold, or around the time of Kenneth Arnold. Kenneth Arnold having his sighting, the term flying saucer was invented, and now you have Puget Sound, and you have Fred Krisman, and Harold Dahl, this is his associate's name. And now they have a bag of, or a box full of slag of some kind from this distressed flying saucer. So he starts making inquiries, Chrisman. He wants to sell this story to like Strange Tales or Amazing Stories, one of those magazines, right? And he's in contact with them. All of this is happening, all this is going on. they get Kenneth Arnold involved the guy who saw the very first UFO sighting over the Rockies or anyway the mountains in the north there so he gets called to a meeting I think they're having it in Seattle so he goes to this meeting Fred Chrisman is there, Harold Dahl is there and two officers from the Air Force which at that time was still basically Army Air Force. They're showing up and they're having this conversation. There's a lot of weird stuff about this. Kenneth Arnold's a little nervous because he goes to Seattle without a hotel reservation, not realizing Seattle's booked for some kind of convention. There's no hotel available, right? And then he calls one hotel and he says, oh, we have your reservation. He didn't make a reservation, right? So at least he has the hotel room. Everything that was discussed in that hotel room was recorded because a newspaper writer, journalist, had access to the entire transcript later. As Arnold and Fred Crisman, this guy from who knows where, just some guy, and Harold Dahl, his friend, they're sitting there talking about UFOs. And the Army Air Force gets involved and they say, okay, these are two intelligence officers. We're going to take your slag. You're going to take this debris with us to have it analyzed. Okay, and Christmas says, okay, fine. You know, they give them the stuff. They get on a plane. Plane takes off. A few minutes later, the plane crashes. The two intelligence officers are dead. The slag is gone. No one knows what happened to it. This is all fact. And yet there's this guy, this reporter, who has the scoop on what was being discussed. Shortly thereafter, he's dead. This is all happening in Seattle in 1947. Whoa. Then what happens? That's 1947. Fast forward to like 1967, 20 years later. Who is being called to the Jim Garrison investigation on the Kennedy assassination? But Fred Crisman, believed to have been involved in some way in the assassination. when I saw that because I had been looking at the the the Warren Commission reports I've been going through with the fine tooth comb I had access to some of Mary Farrell's stuff she's a famous investigator on this kind of thing all of this and putting it together this doesn't make any freaking sense but then I went a little bit further and Guy Bannister who was the FBI former FBI agent in New Orleans where David Ferry worked out of his office, Jack Martin, and Lee Harvey Oswald. Bannister, in 1947, was reporting on UFO sightings to J. Edgar Hoover directly as an FBI agent in the Pacific Northwest. And his telexes are all marked Special Project X or Special Mission X, SM-X. These were X files, right? And they were only to deal with UFO sightings. and he would report religiously on these sightings. I talked to this one, I talked to that one, I saw this, there was this sighting, I went and saw this. In 47. In 47, Guy Bannister, who then later is implicated in the Kennedy assassination. Fred Krisman implicated in the Kennedy assassination. And then, you know, Ruth Payne going and talking to the nine, right? And she's directly connected to the Kennedy assassination. And these guys are talking to a spacecraft. Right. Right. So, how can I not be involved in researching UFOs, occultism, politics, assassinations, and all the rest of it? It's a stew. It's got so much there. Yeah. You know? I mean, it can make you crazy because not everything is related the way we'd like to think. Sometimes it just is, like me being in that church. Right? Right. I wasn't sent there by anybody. I just happened to work out because I had the balls to walk into the Bobby Kennedy funeral and pretend to be an Orthodox priest. I guess that was the trigger, right? If I hadn't done that, none of this after that would have happened, most likely. Wow. So it's making a decision that doesn't make any sense at the time and maybe really even dangerous or risky anyway. And doing that, you know, and just doing it, brassing it out and doing it. And then suddenly all these things start to occur. I never had to think about life insurance before because A, I'm not old. And B, I'm not particularly interested in going through a really long, stressful, expensive process. And then I learned about Fabric and now I'm insured at an incredible rate. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. Made for busy parents like you and me, all online, on your own schedule, and right from your couch. You can be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. And that was a huge surprise for me. No appointments and no paperwork marathon. And if you've got kids or somebody who depends on you, you don't want to have to be figuring this out after something happens. A lot of people don't realize that life insurance through work usually isn't enough. And it definitely doesn't follow you if you leave that job. Fabric lets you lock in coverage that actually fits your lifestyle and your budget. We're talking up to a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. And they've got a 30-day money-back guarantee, so there's no risk. Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their families. Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com slash Danny. Again, that's M-E-E-T-F-A-B-R-I-C dot com slash Danny. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company. Not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Drinking in your 20s and drinking in your 30s are two very different experiences. I can literally see it on my sleep tracker. All I need is a few drinks with dinner and the next day I'm feeling slow and drained. Which is why I'm obsessed with Cheers Restore. Alcohol doesn't just dehydrate you. It has depressant effects on certain receptors in your brain. And it's tough on your liver. So if the only thing you're doing is pounding water, you're addressing half the problem. Cheers Restore is a dual action after alcohol aid. Its ingredients support both your brain and your liver after consuming alcohol. It was originally developed by a Princeton student researching a compound called DHN, which demonstrated powerful alcohol-related properties in the brain and liver. So it's designed for how alcohol actually affects your body, not just dehydration. I keep a bottle at home and I keep a packet when I'm on the go, going out with friends, or on a date. Just take three capsules after your last drink or before bed and have a far better next day. They even promise you'll feel at least 50% better or your money back. Cheers has been on Shark Tank, and it's in over 30,000 stores, and they sold over 50 million doses. So clearly, people notice a difference. Same night out, way better morning with Cheers. And for a limited time, our listeners are getting 20% off their entire order by using the code Danny at CheersHealth.com. Go to C-H-E-E-R-S-H-E-A-L-T-H.com and use the code Danny for 20% off. After you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them, and please support the show. by telling them we sent you. I don't know. So what is your favorite flavor of the Kennedy assassination? Why do you think that he was ultimately assassinated? Do you have any favorite theories? I think we have a problem in understanding how reality works, and that's something I tried to talk about in Sinister Forces. Events take place in time, but they ripple into different directions, into past and future, I think. not literally the way we're thinking about it just now, but in a sense they do. Kennedy's assassination was almost preordained. You know? I mean, he had a lot of enemies. Let's face it. Half of his government was against him. The CIA blamed him for the Bay of Pigs operation. Right? He blamed the CIA. He said he was going to tear it into a thousand pieces. Right. He fired Alan Dulles. and then Alan Dulles gets put on the Warren Commission. How does that make any sense? Even his last speech right before he died was very odd. It was almost like he was alluding to the fact that he knew he was going to die. There was something in the last part of that speech that was really cryptic. Yeah, there was. And he had even talked about secret societies running the world at one point. He had a speech of that nature. And I don't think he was referring to CIA. And even And even Eisenhower, that famous last speech, the military industrial complex speech, the notes for that, people that were near him, he was writing notes for that particular speech. He was going to include religion in that. And then somebody convinced him to cross it out and not use it. So he was already worried that there was some kind of spiritualized, weaponized spirituality going on, something like that. So the Kennedy assassination, he had a lot of enemies. I have no doubt, you know. But as far as the lone gunman argument, I don't know. I still don't buy it. I'm sorry. No, I don't think many people do. I can't. I mean, people have made a very good attempt to try to explain how it could possibly be true. But I just, there's just too much that doesn't make sense. It's not consistent. Right. And I'm still onto the grassy knoll thing because, as I mentioned, again, in Sinister Forces, which is the book I seem to be focused on at the moment there was a play written before Kennedy was even born which discusses kind of the assassination and it's a king who's being killed by someone who's firing from a hill in a grassy knoll fired, we don't know how many shots we don't know who he was working for we think he was working for Russia and his name was Alex and Alex was Oswald's fake name, Alex Heidel, when he bought the rifle, the man licked Carcano. So this play was written and performed by a guy called Maurice Materlink. He was a Belgian poet and mystic who won the Nobel Prize for Literature back at the time. When was this? Turn of the century. Okay. Wow. So he wrote a play sort of laying out the assassination and the amount of obscurity around it. How many shots were fired? it's ambiguous. Who was he working for? We think the Russians. Where did he fire from? The Grassy Knoll. What was his name, Alex? Huh. Right? He basically prefigured the assassination. When you prefigure the assassination... Or the guys who were coordinating it took their idea from that story. Well, he wrote another famous play, much more famous than that one, and it's called Bluebeard. Bluebird. The Bluebird... No, just Bluebird. Just by itself, Bluebird. And so we have this really bizarre play about two kids who are looking for the blue bird of happiness. And they go wandering around the forest and meet all kinds of very strange characters. And they finally come back to their house and they realize the blue bird was in their house all along. It's a very moralistic play. But it is so weird. It's got so many surreal elements in it that different people have made movies of it. The Russians, I think, made a film of it. We made a film filmed in Moscow during the 60s, which was very unusual. We got permission. American filmmakers went to Moscow and filmed it there. A lot of famous actors and actresses in it. But Bluebird became, of course, the very first American mind control program. Bluebird in 1950 was what we had developed, CIA had developed, to counteract what they thought was brainwashing going on in Korea. And it was called Bluebird. And so later, Dulles would change the name of Bluebird to Artichoke. because he liked artichokes. That's the story we have. It's weird. I'm sorry, but that's what it is. Why did he like artichoke? I have no clue why he liked artichokes. Maybe all the separate little leaves. I wonder if it has anything to do with those ancient depictions of, like, gods holding those artichoke things on their staffs. Could be, yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Occult freaks. Really? But Bluebird, right? I mean, why would they call the mind control program Bluebird? Right. Right. And if you look at the play, it's all there. It's all the different programs that they go through, the different kinds of conditioning. We learn this. We learn that. We get frightened. All of this kind of operant conditioning, you know, it's all kind of there in the play. So you have to look at it or see the film or one of the film versions. You get an idea of it. but there's one particular line in there where one of the characters screams at some of the other characters, what are you doing in there? You look like you're plotting, like you're a bunch of assassins, right? Which is a very strange, like, non sequitur in the middle of the play. So it was as if Major Link was operating on many cylinders at the time while he was writing it. But he was talking about, you know, mind control process. If you look at the play, it is a process of illumination. of becoming enlightened, of going through various stages and getting enlightenment. Mind control jump-started that operation at CIA. Bluebird was kind of the way it all started, because then CIA sat down and said, wait a minute, we're on to something here. We can maybe wipe memories. We can replace memories. We can program people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. We can do all this stuff, which was basically a system of occult initiation, right? That they were actually going to try to force onto people to see what would happen. And one of the people doing that was a guy operating in Montreal. He had a system he called de-patterning, where he would take a person who had just shown up at his psychiatrist's office because they wanted help with smoking or they had bad dreams or something, you know, mundane. And instead he put them through these processes where they basically lost their minds. Right? He wiped their memories and replaced them with memories that were not theirs. He was eventually sued. CIA was sued over this. And a lot of these survivors have won in some of those cases and those losses. This was some very serious shit that was taking place at this clinic in Montreal. They did it in Montreal because it was not the United States. The CIA could conduct an overseas operation outside the U.S., right? Doing it internally in the U.S. was tricky. The military was doing it. The military had mind control programs that they were operating on within the United States. But when you're in the military, yes, you found it. Oh, wow. This was just a couple of months ago, this article. Victim of CIA-linked Montreal brainwashing experiments cleared to sue in class action. Patients allege illegal human experimentation seek compensatory damages. What is it? So go scroll down to the first paragraph. Oh, my God. They're just now getting cleared for a class action lawsuit from MKUltra? Yeah, they've been at this all this time. So it's still with us. It's still here. It's still with us. We're still living in that world, which is what the point I was trying to make in my books. We're still living in that world. This is not ancient history. I always wonder about this, too. This is one of the common themes that get woven through a lot of the conversations I have here. I always wonder how much of that stuff, how MKUltra has evolved from what it started from in the 50s to now, today, with the emergence of the internet, AI, and just information being ubiquitous and unbearable to grasp all the stuff that's coming out all the time. And then if you look at, which I'm sure we'll get into this stuff more in a little bit, but everything that's going on with the whole UFO disclosure narrative and what's recently been happening with these Epstein files, I don't know if you've been paying attention to that. Yeah. It's like all of the most insane QAnon conspiracy theories are coming true. And this is too much for people to handle. And it's bonkers. All the top billionaires, politicians, leaders of countries are implicated in this stuff. And no one knows what to do about it. It's bananas. If you grew up in this country over the last 50, 60, 70 years or more, you would bump into this all the time. You just not realize it. The idea of child abuse has always been around. I mean, the Catholic Church is what? Notorious now. There have been so many lawsuits brought against the church. This was something that was everywhere. This was in schools. This was in churches. So it was a phenomenon that was not necessarily the sole property of the billionaire class. This is something that's up and down through society, right? But the QAnon aspect of it where we're going to, you know, the idea that they're sacrificing children to get the adrenochrome or something. Right. I have a hard time with that for a couple of reasons. One, you can synthesize adrenochrome really easily in the lab. and get a very pure quality of adrenochrome that way. But that's not really the real problem. The real problem for me is the idea that these very wealthy people would be so exposed in these operations that it would be so easy to find out. there's something that makes me wonder about that as well take the adrenochrome thing because that really bothers me remember Pizzagate Pizzagate was ridiculous to me you have Hillary Clinton and John Podesta according to the story, the QAnon Pizzagate story they're in a pizza parlor in the basement in Washington D.C. and they're sacrificing children and getting their adrenochrome do you think that between the two of them Hillary and John Podesta, they didn't have access to a better location, something a bit more secure, with all of their real estate around the world, their connections around the world. Why would they go to a pizza parlor? There's no earthly reason. It's ridiculous. It's unassuming. They've got an underground secure skiff underneath the pizza parlor, whatever it was called. It's super unassuming. Everyone's always passing through Washington, D.C. all the time. that's where all the elites go to meet. I don't know. I mean... But, yeah, exactly. Passing through all the time. Do you really want that much of an audience? I mean, to me, I mean, they have property everywhere. Why not? Right. It doesn't make any sense. Okay, that didn't make any sense. And the adrenochrome itself didn't make any sense. And have you seen Bill and Hillary lately? Bill and Hillary looking rough. Not working. The adrenochrome. Not working. They're getting ready to take their skin suits off and go back to their home planet. Yeah, there you go. So for me, just the common sense aspect of it, which is why I go further than that. I said, let's go a little bit further than this because the QAnon stuff to me was a manipulation. I thought that that information was being sourced somewhere and was used to manipulate people in general. So I step away from QAnon, right? I looked at the stuff. I went on 4chan and everything else trying to figure out what all this is about. I'm thinking, wait a minute. If you're involved, as I have been my whole life, even in dealing with occult personalities and occult organizations, they're kind of, by comparison, they're kind of pathetic, really. These are groups of people who get together and then fall apart. They get together and then fall apart. This idea of a group that, like, lasts forever, that has gone on for at least decades, if not centuries, and they're in control of something. I actually wrote bluntly in one of my books that they couldn't control a bake sale, you know, these groups that I've known, much less control something like this. So we're talking about something else entirely. the idea these are this is like the OTO is constantly mentioned right the Alistair Crowley organization I'm like give me a break I know the OTO I've known them very well for decades right leaders of the OTO and the OTO itself and believe me they're not they're constitutionally not capable for this stuff even if they're in their wildest dreams they thought of it they just don't have it these are like frat parties basically right you know the level of sophistication we're looking for they dress up and they have the robes and stuff, but they can't get through a ritual without forgetting the laws. Sure, but outside of that, outside of their confined boundaries, if you're just like an outsider, it has this mystique allure. Oh my God, it's crazy. They're worshipping the devil and they're sacrificing people, but you go there and it's like, okay, this is some goofy club. Look at Anton LaVey, right? The Church of Satan. He was a showman. He was doing this for cliques. If there had been cliques in those days, that's what he was doing. And he he got pretty far with it, right? He attracted a lot of people to it, just like all these organizations do. Jacques Vallée hung out, had dinner with him. Oh, yeah. Sure. I mean, but Vallée was a researcher. He really wanted to know what was going on, and he still is. I mean, I give all the credit in the world to Vallée. He really did try to talk to everybody and find out whatever he could about anything. But then, you know, in the modern terms, the Epstein-file terms now, right, if he had dinner with LeVay, he is now linked with LeVay. He's connected to LeVay. That's not really, you know. I mean, I'm connected to all the same people, right? I'm connected to LeVay. Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course, there's a lot of innocent people that were tied up in that. He was funding science. Well, it's not just that. I mean, connection is not just being on an email list, right? There has to be more to it than that. Of course. I mean, there's plenty of emails that are like, oh, like the current Secretary of Commerce, who six months ago was on a podcast saying, I saw, I met him once. I saw his massage table and I said, never again. I would never have any association with this sicko. Meanwhile, he lived next door. Now the emails come out. He met up with him plenty of times, including went to his island and took like his three kids and some other three kids of a family he was with, who knows what for, listing their names, donating to charities for him, going to events with him, dinners with him. Exactly. Like how the guy's still in. He still works for Trump. That's the connection, right? That is a connection. Valet having a meeting with LeVay LeVay, Valet, is the same person? Having a meeting with him is not a connection right? If that's all that happened I met Michael Aquino right? In Las Vegas he invited me out there Michael Aquino was the head of the Temple of Set this guy that's very strange Pull up a picture of this guy, this is hilarious this is a crazy looking military general and he's got these wacky eyebrows Yeah, Lieutenant Colonel with the wacky eyebrows. Michael Aquino. Aquino. A-Q-U-I-N-O. Let's see what we got. That's him. Images. Oh, yeah. Look at that. Yeah. That's serious, man. Yeah, what's this guy's story? He showed me a baby picture of his which has the same eyebrows. Really? He claims that he was born that way. There's no way around it. Okay, this guy was part of LeVay's operation, the Church of Satan. He left the Church of Satan because it was too, I don't know, it was not up to his standards, scholastically. And he developed a place called the Temple of Set. And he became the head of the Temple of Set. Set like the Egyptian god of evil. Okay. I want to talk to you about some stuff after you finish this. Okay, well, that's Aquino. And I had written about him because he had conducted a ceremony at a Nazi castle in Germany, at Babelsberg Castle. And like he was channeling the Nazi hierarchy. So I wrote about him, I think, in Unholy Alliance. And I said, you know, come on, right? And this guy's lieutenant colonel in the military, in intelligence, right? And I think he was actually a chaplain for Temple of Set in the military. but even more interesting than that this guy was part of the Phoenix Program in Vietnam what was the Phoenix Program? the Phoenix Program was a CIA military operation that was using psychological warfare against the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese so they would do things like one story came out recently but there's been a lot of them where one village was terrified of vampires so they killed I think it was a Viet Cong tax collector or something and strung him up and let him out, right? Made sure that he bled out completely and hung this drained corpse at the entrance to the village so the villagers would think their vampires were out there, right? And they would need American protection against the vampires. Stuff like that. Phoenix program did stuff like that. It was a mind control kind of psychological warfare operation in Vietnam. And they just used Vietnam as the playground. Let's see what works. just throwing gasoline on their craziest beliefs does that sound familiar? it sounds very familiar it sounds way too familiar so this is what Aquino specialized in at that time during Vietnam and he's open about it he died a few years ago wasn't there some crazy shit with a CIA Jesus going over Havana or something? yeah I mentioned that one what is that one? similar idea what happened was CIA this was part of their this might have been no this wasn't MKUltra but this was their anti-Cuban anti-Castro stuff they wanted to play a trick on the people in Cuba and flash a kind of hologram of Jesus over Havana basically trying to instigate the Cubans to revolt against Castro like Jesus is here now right and you communists you're anti-Jesus you're anti-religion blah blah blah well I'm Jesus you know I'm floating above you rise up and overthrow Castro. That was the plan. They didn't do it. Was this in actual documents? Yes. Declassified documents? Yes. And was this Jesus? How was I going to speak to them? Well, they hadn't figured that part out yet. Okay. Now, is this in like the same batch of documents that like Operation Northwoods came out? Yeah, 1970s, 1980s. Okay. That's when that came out. And Northwoods was the one where they were going to fly the empty jetliner and blow it up as a pretext? Right. Same era. So... The CIA Jesus one is just like... That's my favorite. That's my favorite of all operations, CIA operations, ideas I've ever heard. Let's figure, they must have perfected it by now. So be on your guard, everybody. So anyway, Aquino then contacts me out of the clear blue sky because I had mentioned him. And he said, listen, you know, I'm not that bad of a guy and everything. And I said, well, I don't know. You've been accused of, you know, child abuse, right? The Presidio affair. Aquino was all over it, right? People accused Aquino of sexually abusing them as part of satanic ceremonies or something. Who was accusing him? Children. No, no. Children were accusing him? Yeah. They went to the police and parents went to the police with their kids. And they filed reports and they're saying it was Aquino that was responsible. So Aquino got kicked out of the army briefly. Because when they went and did the background checks and everything else, they figured he couldn't have done this because he wasn't there at the time. So then he got reinstated. Oh. Right? But for a while, I mean, there's people who still believe that Aquino did this. And for me, the jury's still out. You know, I could see, I mean, I have friends who do this for a living, and they're kind of, you know, when I say do this for a living, I mean, they research this stuff for a living. And they said this is, you know, they kind of consider that he might have been doing it as well. He insists, of course, that he never did. And he has witnesses that says it couldn't have happened. And the military, because he was in the military, they knew where he was every second of every day. So they said that that's not possible. So when these children were systematically coming out accusing him of abusing them, was he already publicly known as being a Satanist? Yeah. So he was in the military, and he was also a Satanist, and the military didn't care. Didn't care. They couldn't care. Do you think it's possible that it was some sort of, like, collaborated, like, religious thing to, like, make this guy look more of, like, a sick fuck? I mean, yeah, it could be, definitely. But I mean, he went on talk shows talking about Satanism. He was an out-there, out-front guy. He wasn't hiding it. So his wife, Lilith, is still around, and he would go on with Lilith. There they are. I met them both in Las Vegas. Like the Adams family. Are they still alive? Michael has died a few years ago. Look at him. Wow. So he was not... It's like a... Yeah. This is not hiding. He was not hiding anything. This is like Cold War, like World of Warcraft. Yeah, right. These people would have been playing, like, role-playing the gamers, you know? Yeah. So you understand my point of view on this. He was so out there that he was an easy target. I mean, he just made himself a target. He didn't care. Right, right, right, right. But as I say, he got kicked out of the Army over the Presidio Affair, then brought back in. And I went to a meeting of something called the Association of Former Intelligence Officers, AFIO. All the people who used to belong to CIA, FBI, DEA, NSA, whatever, all the alphabet agencies, including military intelligence, you can join this organization. Right. And he invited me down. He says, we're having our annual meeting in Las Vegas. Why don't you come down? You know, I'll get you in. You're not a member, but I'll get you in as a guest and you can see what's going on here. Right. You can see for yourself. I couldn't pass that up. Here's Michael Aquino that I had written about as this satanic guy doing Nazi ceremonies in Babelsberg Castle. I said, OK, sure. You know, and I went down and I saw. And I'm there with all these former agents. And it's a party, right? They're throwing a party for themselves. And they all love this guy, right? Military intelligence, could be CIA, could be FBI, whatever it was. They would get up, shake his hands, you know. They were very happy to be seen. They were happy that he got reinstated. From their point of view, this was a good guy. Now, if you're a conspiracy-minded person, you're thinking, well then they're all degenerates right? The entire intelligence establishment because they embraced him or you say to yourself maybe there's more to the story and I'm jumping to conclusions on the child abuse end of it right? This is how difficult doing real research is. It is very very difficult. You just can't do it on Google. It's got to be something you know or chat GPT. It's got to be something a bit more. You've got to talk to people. You've got to see them. You've got to see how they react to you. You've got to see how they respond to questions and Aquino was like ask me anything. I don't care. And Lillard was there through the whole thing. What kind of guy do you think he was? Oh, he was arrogant as hell. Okay. He was extremely arrogant and extremely materialistic. This is a problem I had with another guest on, Jesse Michaels, which was Giorgiani. I had claimed that Michael Aquino did not believe in the paranormal, basically, at all. This guy? This guy. Didn't believe in it. I have emails from him, lengthy emails, telling me why. And he even wrote an article for the Intelligence Officers Association magazine. They have a magazine. And he wrote a long article about why Stargate was a bust, why remote viewing can't work. I mean, he has the whole 100% materialist attitude on this. And I tried to explain to him some paranormal experiences I had had. And he tried to convince me that I had been tricked by some manipulators or something. So that was his belief system. He had a philosophy, but it did not include belief in the paranormal or UFOs or anything like that. He didn't believe in UFOs? At all. So him being a Satan, a quote-unquote Satanist, was like the equivalent of somebody who listens to death metal. Death metal is satanic in the fact that it's a style. Right. It's kind of like it's an attitude. Exactly. It's a philosophical position. For Aquino, it's more or less a philosophical position, Satanism. And he changed it from Satan to Set, and he tried to make it more Egyptian, and he tried to find ancient roots for his concept. Set was simply the foreigner. In ancient Egypt, the animal Set was considered a foreign animal, something that the Egyptians themselves did not have. He represented tribes that were not part of Egypt. So it was a philosophical position that I believe in something you guys don't believe in. I believe in the unbelievable that you don't want to believe in. I believe in a different set of values, let's say. Right, right, right. Contrarian. Yeah, contrarian, basically. And that was his thing. I mean, I'm sure it was deeper than that. I've read his stuff. He goes into a lot of detail on philosophy where it's concerned. But I think he really wanted to create people who could think really clearly for themselves. But that would then lead over into other areas where it got a little uncomfortable, right? the Parkland shooting for instance happened only a few mile or so from my home and I knew one of the, I knew the family of one of the victims so Parkland happens and somehow it comes up in our conversations between Aquino and myself on email and he mentions Parkland as being oh that was a sys-off, it was some kind of a sigh-off rather, kind of, you know it wasn't real, nothing really happened it was just, you know, like propaganda or something of that nature. No one got shot, he was saying? Right, yeah, basically. And then I said, man, I'm sorry, but I know one of the victims, right? I know their family. There's a Buddhist temple that I know that they belong to and everything. And then he apologized immediately. Oh, I'm sorry. I just jumped to conclusions too quickly. Why would you jump to that conclusion, right? Why would you jump to the conclusion that this was, you know, an Alex Jones, Sandy Hook thing? Sure. Why would you do that, you know? But he did. he was that way. He just would not believe what he saw. He always thought there was an ulterior motive. Why not? He ran, you know, he was involved with the Phoenix program in Vietnam, manipulating people's belief systems. Right. So he looked at everything through that lens. When you can't, you have to be able to weigh it from both sides. Right? Like, there's probably a very equal chance that things like, you know, UFO is like I'm sure the government could stage a UFO sighting. Why not? But also, there's probably something really out there in another substrate that we're not privy to or that we can't see with our five senses or detect that can make itself visible sometimes and manifest. And who knows what's really going on out there. Well, that's why the approach to the UFO thing is you have to include consciousness as part of the equation on this. something that we, Tom DeLonge and I and the others have been saying for years is consciousness is an integral part of this. You can't just go on the nuts and bolts aspect of the UFO phenomenon. There's a point where you can't get beyond. Before we get to the all that stuff, connecting this Operation Phoenix stuff and the cult Satanism stuff do you think there's any overlap with this recent release of these Epstein files with all the stuff. He named his bank account Ball. There's accounts. There's multiple people saying children were killed. Okay, let's stop on the Ball just for a second. That may not have been Ball. I looked at that. This is the bank's statement, right? It was BAA and the number one. That usually refers to... Oh, really? Look that up. Look up Epstein files, bank account BAAL, and then you'll find stories about it, but then if we get this actual screenshot, we'll see. Yeah, because it looked a little funny to me when I saw it. And if it's BAA1, that's just a category of the account. Do you know what I mean? There's like a lot of different prefixes for that. And it might be BAA1. I could be wrong with this, but I think... This is not it. Go to x.com. Yeah. X is always going to be your best bet for this kind of shit. Punch in on that. Please wire. No, that could be a no. Name Wachovia. Why am I not seeing it? Where is it? Third line down. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. B-A-A-L. Yeah, that's not a one. That's definitely an L. Ball. Oh, there it is. But it says Ball Name Wachovia Bank. Account name is One Clear Lake Center LLC. That's the account name. So what the hell does BAL have anything to do with it? It's BAL with a period, which means it's an abbreviation for something. Oh. What can B-A-A-L name? The problem is that's the only BAL that comes up in the files as far as we know. So, what is a Ball name, a B-A-A-L name in relationship to a bank? I wonder if that's like some sort of like an international bank code or something maybe? International Bank Code abbreviation? That email also has misspellings in it too. Oh, all of his emails are misspellings. He's misspellings shit all the time, left and right. Based on Ball, the bank account arises from recent specific controversies. A misinterpretation. Recent non-verified online claim suggests Epstein's bank was named Ball. Analysis indicates that a scanned document likely contained a clerical error or misreading an optical character recognition, OCR software, where it was misread as B-A-A-L or B-A-A-L name. This is how you spell the demon. The demon is B-A apostrophe A-L? Yeah. Yeah, but... No, you can spell it the other way. You can still do it the other way, for sure. Who knows? There's so many weird little things that people can just blow out of proportion. But there for sure is like some crazy stuff going on. Oh, absolutely. Like using grape soda and pizza and stuff for words for child abuse and stuff. And then like there's an endless amount of billionaires and politicians who are – It's very hard to misinterpret what they're saying, and it's very dark shit. I agree. I mean, I would. I just had a guy on here a couple days ago. I don't know if you've heard of him, Dean Radin. Sure. Of course. He said he had a 20-minute phone call or a 20-minute Skype call with Epstein, and Epstein was just had it. He's like, tell me stories about telepathy and spoon bending. Tell me all about this stuff. I'm really interested in it. Like, that was the gist of the conversation he had with him. Like, he was obsessed with this kind of stuff. Yeah. I think from his emails, and not just his emails, from his environment, you know. He seems to have been obsessed with it, but kind of kept it hidden. I mean, some of it was in your face. I mean, there was, you know, if you're interested in symbolism, you could get that weird impression from Epstein's environment. Yeah. But... Temple of Poseidon on his island. okay I have something that no one's mentioned yet on this and it occurred to me just recently because one of my favorite films that I saw when I was 18 years old was The Magus The Magus The Magus stars Anthony Quinn Michael Caine and Candace Bergen I think it was probably her first role 1968 It's based on the novel by John Fowles. It was a very big novel at the time, a bestseller. Okay. Anthony Quinn plays this mysterious person living on an island in Greece. Michael Caine is a British schoolteacher. He's just dumped his girlfriend, who's an air hostess or something. And now he's trying to find himself or whatever. He's sort of an arrogant, closed-off, cold person. and he's a school teacher on this island in Greece. But the mysterious person, played by Anthony Quinn, invites him to his house. And in his house, there is a temple to Poseidon. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your 1 euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. And that temple to Poseidon, you see it briefly from a distance. Mostly you're inside, right? It's in the interior where you see the Poseidon statue. but there is a shot from a distance and my god if that temple of Poseidon is not a replica of the one on Epstein's Island really and that would freak me out a little bit more what's the name of this movie The Magus The Magus The Magus The Magus that's it there's Anthony Quinn okay find the temple Poseidon temple from the Magus film see if you can find that so I just watched this recently again and with the Epstein files fresh in my mind now I'm looking at this a completely different way there is one room in that house in the movie where it's a nice room but there's all these masks on the wall remember the room in Epstein's place he has all these masks, these heads on the wall, just regular like heads all over the place and there was a duplicate of that in the movie The Magus and I started to wonder because there's this association with occultism in the film there's the association with a very wealthy guy controlling the lives of people playing them as puppets you know, manipulating them you have to see the film or read the book to understand what I mean but Anthony Quinn is like a master manipulator in this but he has the Temple of Poseidon and he has all those heads on the wall and he's manipulating people who are there. He's supposedly already dead, but he's not. His grave is there, right? They take him to meet his grave, and then he comes and sees the guy. The guy was supposed to have died in the 40s, and there he is in present day, which is 1968, I guess. So all of this is going on. All these connections are being made with this film. I'm not saying that Epstein saw the movie and said, I want to be Anthony Quinn because he would have done a better job, I think. But what I'm saying is that these events ripple out. The synchronicities that take place are just the surface trace elements of something deeper that's taking place in reality. Yeah, there's so many layers to this. Like what you just mentioned with that movie is crazy. And that combined with the potential for psychological fuckery going on with the government. Like yesterday, this verified story came out that the government dated a report about Epstein's death the day before he died. And this is getting covered. I don't know if it's getting covered on Fox, but it's getting covered everywhere else. And it's like people – I don't think people are equipped to handle this. And I wonder, is this strategic? All this Epstein stuff getting dumped in our laps, all this UFO stuff getting dumped in our laps, is there some sort of strategic mission to get people detangled from reality somehow? Yeah. I mean you look at the effect right the effect is detangling people from reality and that's what's happening people refuse to believe what they see anymore we can't believe what we see because we don't know if it's AI generated right that too and that's in its infancy when it gets better when AI gets better when we get to the so called singularity all bets are off we're not going to know who's real or who isn't we're not going to know what anybody really did or what anybody really said, unless you can see them face to face. And even then, you're going to second guess yourself. Have you seen the robots coming out of China and Japan? So, you know, you're going to start getting to the point. I said this, I think, in the Secret Machines books, that everybody's saying, how come they're talking about disclosure so much now? And I said, because we're getting to that point where we become the UFOs, our technology is getting to that point. Plus, everybody has a cell phone. We can take pictures of it if it shows up. Anybody can. Before it was just a handful of people with cameras or just the government. Now that's all bets are off. The government doesn't have the control anymore. The government's desperately trying to get the control, right? They're trying to control as much as they possibly can, but they're losing it because they can't. One well-placed meme, well-designed AI video blows that out of the water for a long time, and the government then has to play catch-up. Right. Right. And what is the definition of a magician? Right? Someone who's going to trick you into thinking that what you see is real when it not Yeah it just like if they not in control what is it like hard to define There's really no singular entity that can be in control of all of this stuff. It's sort of just, everything's sort of just going off the rails with technology. We're not equipped for it. We're not equipped, to use an old term, we're not equipped spiritually for what's happening. We're not there. We don't have the so-called power of discernment. We cannot look at something and say, that's bullshit, right, without having to go and look, was this age I generated? But also if the government can figure out, if any government can figure out a way to steer this stuff, roughly steer it, they can try to make, they have more tools at their disposal to maintain power. It's not government. government the Peter Thiels of this world want to get rid of government government's in their way government relies too much on mechanisms they don't like voting is one of them anything like that where the people have a voice in it, why go through this old sort of antiquated in their minds this antiquated system of organizing people when we can do it with a few clicks We can make people believe what we want them to believe, behave the way we want them to behave. So what do we need government for? That's the way these people think. That's the way they think. And what does government have on their own to fight against that? What can they do to stop that from happening? Have you seen these congressional committees discussing the Internet, discussing AI? It's terrible. It's all these old guys not having a clue, right, what they're talking about. Right. And they're talking to, you know, Zuckerberg or they're talking to any of these guys sitting there. And, you know, they can give them any answer they want. Right. Right. They're not going to understand it. Yeah. Right. There's nobody competent enough to within the government to protect the government and by extension to protect society. Right. From what's going on. You know, we had a problem with cigarettes. Right. We had a very hard time trying to put the warning on the pack of cigarettes that it causes cancer. I mean, that's in a microcosm of what we're talking about now. Yeah. Well, if there's anybody in the government right now that's competent and who I trust, it's Kash Patel. On that note, I've got to take a pee real quick. We'll be right back. going back to Aquino Aquino and Crowley and LeVay and all this stuff it's really interesting to me because like this modern version of Satanism has no ties to the Bible whatsoever like even the concept of Satan is a very very recent concept and it doesn't go back farther than, I don't remember when it was, but it was, like, the concept of Satan wasn't even around during Jesus Christ. No. It was much more modern. And so this is, like, I think people get confused about this, because if you want to take the concept of, like, the actual word that it came from and equate it with things like Lucifer, there's so many different, like, Jesus called himself the morning star in the Bible. And there's parallels between Prometheus and Lucifer. I think in the Garden of Eden, this serpent represents good, right? To the Gnostics, yeah. Because Prometheus was like the guy who saved humanity from Zeus. Zeus wanted to flood the earth, and Prometheus wanted to save humanity. And Lucifer has a very similar story. Right. Almost identical. Almost identical, yeah. So it's like, okay, when did Satan become this evil, demonic, child-mobbing sort of idea, right? Or think of, oh, you're sacrificing children and doing all this scary stuff. You know, today people think about that. That's what they associate with it. That's, as you say, much more recent. the word Satan I think appears maybe once in the Bible but it's used as a descriptor of someone who is like a prosecutor in the case of Job the famous book of Job so Job is like a nice guy and everything else and we're going to make his life as miserable as possible and see if he still loves God and so the guy making his life as miserable as possible was the adversary He was the adversary to Job. But he was doing this on behalf of God, right? He's telling God, I'm going to show you this guy. You can't trust him. You know, he will eventually turn if you make his life miserable enough. So he wasn't Satan. He wasn't a guy with the horns and the pitchfork. He was somebody who was testing humanity, testing Job to show if he was still of God at the end of that. So then you had Lucifer as a Latin word comes much later on. Right. The bringer of light. Right. And obviously that doesn't sound like a devil or an evil spirit of any kind. So the idea of this devil that people would worship is probably a holdover from when Christianity started moving into Europe. They were encountering paganism, European-style paganism. They had to demonize the pagan religions in some way, make them anti-Jesus in a sense. because when Christianity started, they had, they started as a Jewish religion, right? As a sect of Judaism. So the people they were talking to mostly were people who spoke Aramaic. So they were Jews or other people living in that region who spoke Aramaic, not Jews and non-Jews. That was the extent of it, right? Jesus was talking just to this sort of limited cultural slice, you know, of people living in Palestine at the time. So these are the only people that, you know, he's talking to. ideas of satanic worship didn't exist. No. But there were pagan temples, right? Paganism existed. Right. So you had Moloch, right? Which was in North Africa mostly. Religions were, it was like they were a dime a dozen. People could have multiple religions. They could have multiple gods. There was no devil. It wasn't monotheistic. Right. There was no devil. Right. Because devil is kind of a monotheistic creation. Yes. Right. That's the problem, right? in order to believe in Satan, you would have to be a Christian. There's almost no way out. If you were brought up in China, if you lived in Southeast Asia, as an example, or in Africa, or if you were part of the Mayan culture or something, none of that made any sense. You wouldn't be a Satanist. How could you be a Satanist? There's no concept of that, where you're from. If you're a Chinese and you're growing up in China, let's say before the revolution, so you're growing up with Taoism or Buddhism or something, there's no Satan there you couldn't be a Satanist if you wanted to you can only be a Satanist if you believe in Satan and you only believe in Satan if you believe in Jesus because even the Old Testament even the Jews have a hard time being Satanists that concept doesn't exist in the Torah or the Talmud as far as I know now there are devils there are evil spirits there's whole categories of evil spirits but there's no one particular lord of all the evil spirits that you sacrifice babies to. That's not there. But in paganism, you had Moloch, you had Baal, right? You had different deities. They had different kinds of sacrifices. And let's face it, there's a lot of bloody sacrifice in the Old Testament that the Jewish groups were supposed to perform. Okay, so you have child, you have infanticide, and you have all kinds of murders and massacres that take place. That God demands it for one reason or another. So, you know, where do you draw the line here, right? So you're trying to extract out the religious ideas, the symbolism, the Satan symbolism from everything else that's going on. And that becomes tricky. Because Epstein was famously very sort of anti-Christian in a sense, right? He didn't, he thought the Christians were kind of crazy and everything else. Yeah. You know, so there's a lot of pro, like our people, Jewish people against the other people. So there's a bit of that in there, which is, you find that everywhere. That doesn't necessarily imply anything more. But when you talk about the origins of Judaism, and you go to the real origins of Judaism, there were sacrifices that were performed to Yahweh, right? They did perform sacrifices to that God before Judaism became organized and became a kind of a state religion. until that time they have uncovered temples all over the Middle East especially in the area of Palestine and Israel where you have two statues two significant statues in these temples one for the Lord God Yahweh let's call him and the other for Asherah which was his consort so God had a wife for centuries before Judaism became codified so you had a god and you had a god's wife they were both part of the religion this was a real sort of neolithic kind of faith and there were sacrifices that were performed and there were blood sacrifices that were performed and the first one is in Genesis when Cain kills Abel because Cain and Abel are both offering sacrifices to God and Cain is offering the vegetables as I recall and Abel's offering the blood sacrifices, but they're killing animals. And slaying animals is still part of the Jewish tradition if they rebuild the temple. They will bring back the blood sacrifices. They will sacrifice goats or whatever. That's the idea. So that's not that far away. When the Bible is filled with all sorts of reports of God demanding sacrifices, this sacrifice, that, and in fact, in the New Testament, sacrificed his only son, according to the theology. Isn't that a human sacrifice? Yeah. So it's not a child sacrifice, but it's a human sacrifice. So it's messy. If you try to tear this apart and find biblical support for any of this, you'll find biblical support for anything. The Bible is notoriously contradicting itself, self-contradictory all the time. Right, right. Because this is not one person writing one story. this is all different kinds of sources writing all of this all compiled together crazy stuff too a lot of crazy stuff I think we're so disconnected from we just kind of like project our own meaning onto it you know and not to say that you know it can't be a good thing for people to improve the quality of people's lives if they want to use it that way but like God I would love to just take a time machine back to see like what was going on with these guys and what they were actually doing and what their motives were. But you don't have to go that far back. Right? I mean, Mormonism. Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints. I wrote a book on that. How did that start? Joseph Smith had a sorcerer's workbook and he was trying to find gold. And that's how that started. In the woods up in upstate New York. So he was a kind of a sorcerer. And the book that was very popular at the time when Joseph Smith started was a book called The Magus, by the way. Francis Barrett wrote this compendium of Middle Ages kind of astrology, necromancy, ritual magic, all of this stuff. Most of it from Aquinas. from excuse me i'm not going to use most of it from um um middle age sources that um were very popular at the time that tried to unite astrology with a lot of other different practices a lot of it was influenced by middle eastern arab uh and islamic magic as well as jewish magic i guess were magi right originally magi magic magic magicians and ancient so yes supposedly they were yeah they were they were magicians originally so this book was it's very thick and it was really popular because it had all of this stuff in there how to how to conjure devils and how to conjure angels and how to do this how to do that and this was the kind of material that joseph smith had access to at the time and his thing was to find gold to find buried treasure using magical means That was like his and his whole family were involved in doing that. Right. And at one point he claims he found these magic tablets on which was written what we now know as the Book of Mormon. And they were written in hieroglyphics and he had to translate the hieroglyphics using magical means. This was 200 years ago only. Right. Right. Not 2,000, just 200. Right. And then we can get even much closer if we want to. This guy. That guy. Yeah. Get up to that guy. And what was that guy doing? Right. he was in the desert with one of Crowley's disciples I mean what were they doing? They were writing down crazy shit that they saw, visions that they had this happens every day, this happens all the time didn't he run off with Jack Parson's wife? yes he did and he was already married at the time so it was bigamy he ran off with Jack Parson's wife and his money right pure con artist yeah most prolific science fiction author in history shitty science fiction. And that's how he came to know Parsons, because Parsons had these meetings of science fiction authors at his house. It always boggles my mind how all the top remote viewers from the remote viewing program were Scientologists. Well, it was like the first sort of modern, let's apply science to the paranormal process, right? It kind of gave people an edge that way. Valet, I think, was interested from that point of view. I know Hal Putov was also interested. He became clear. So the idea was, let's see what this does. You know, let's see. It's in the same ballpark as the remote viewing stuff they did at SRI and the Uri Geller stuff they did there at SRI. All that stuff they were doing with Ingo Swann. All these people who were, I mean, Ingo Swann was like the real deal, right? He was doing remarkable stuff as a remote viewer. so and he was an artist and a lot of other things um this was this was saying we're going to apply science to the mind and that's all that that dianetics was when it started and scientology we're going to apply science to the mind we're going to clear you of all of your hang-ups or whatever else you're going to become this you know master thinker techno exorcism yeah basically yeah so to me it's the melding of science fiction and occultism that's really what scientology was So, you know, I don't have anything against it from that point of view. They tried to get me on board once many, many years ago. Did they? Oh, it was very funny. It was in New York City, and it was back in the 70s. It was the early days of the Church of Scientology. And they had an operation, I think it was in one of the hotels in Midtown. And they were always on the street with their flyers, and I always avoided them. I always avoided them, right? Yeah. And finally, one day I was just too tired and they came up to me and they said, you know, and I said, okay, okay, I'll go. All right. Take me upstairs. We'll do the test. Right. So I go upstairs to do the test. And as we're walking up this long staircase up into their operation, she says something to me, this woman. And I said, yeah, I'm familiar with it. And she misheard me. And she thought I said, I'm clear. And she said, you're clear. I said, no, no, no. How do I say this? yes, but no, I'm not clear. I'll take the test. Just take me up there. I'll do the test. And I did this ridiculous long test. If you study psychology, you know the answers. And you're just going through this test and then this very stern guy takes me aside in this little cubicle and he says, you know, you're suicidal. We caught you just in time. Really? Wow. So this whole thing, I got out of there. But yeah, That was the spiel. If you don't join us now, you're dead within weeks or something. I thought that was hysterical. Yeah, that is hysterical. I'm still here, obviously. They're synonymous with some pretty sadistic shit. Basically, like human slavery. If you've watched their HBO documentary with Lawrence Wright's books, it's incredible. But, like, the problem is, like, there's never been anybody from, like, a proponent of Scientology to come to the defense of Scientology. Like, you'll get, like, little, like, letters in the mail or whatever denouncing it. But, like, they don't have any open discourse pushing back against this stuff, which is my problem with it. Yeah. And I think that goes with their rules or whatever. They're not allowed to be in the same room with somebody who's not a fan. Right. It's weird. a suppressive person or something. Yeah, yeah, a suppressive person, right. Yeah, well, I mean, that is, I mean, when Scientology started as the church of Scientology, I said, well, this is bullshit, this is not a church. You know what I mean? You're trying to get protection, tax protection or something. I said, this is, don't do this. But as far as they've gotten, they've gotten closer and closer to being really a suppressive church. I mean, that's kind of their thing, is to be, you know, it's a belief system, and you have to believe if you cannot question. If you cannot question, That's not Scientology anymore, from my perspective. It wasn't what Hubbard was originally talking about back in the day. Because back in the day, he talked fondly of Crowley as if he knew him, which was not true. He never knew Crowley? Crowley died in 1947. Oh. But in his early Dianetics speeches before Scientology, when he lost control of Dianetics, right? In his early Dianetics period, he would make these speeches, and there's copies of them around, where he says, you know, Crowley, you talk very fondly of Crowley. Oh, wow. So the idea was he was on that wavelength initially. He was trying to create this kind of free thinking mixed with, you know, not ritual necessarily, but he was trying to apply science fiction ideas to the idea of occultism. And that was in itself fascinating. And I could see why people would be fascinated by it who were, you know, involved in remote viewing stuff or anything. Yeah. It's kind of in that domain. Yeah, I had this psychologist on the other day who said something really interesting. She was talking about, like this was in the context of like telepathic ESP kind of abilities. And she was making the case that like maybe this is something that potentially human could have been inherent in our species before like the written word or whatever. And she was using the example of the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. She was saying, like, when they eat the apple off the tree of knowledge, that could have been a change from, like, pure knowing, pure knowledge, like, intuitive knowledge to, like, knowledge of the written word. to where the development of the written word, now you can read a book, and it can, by its very nature, be deceptive. You can't be deceived by your own pure intuition. And she was making that connection by knowledge, written knowledge, technology of the written word kind of led us down the wrong path. that's pretty good I like that you can read a book about the nature of reality that comes a textbook from a university and it tells you what consciousness is what our universe is what gravity is and all that stuff but like do we really know like I wonder if we weren't bombarded by all of this information and all of this knowledge and having to like fill our memory up with all of this useless garbage if we were able to clear that all out and strip it all down what would be left? I wonder if some of this crazy paranormal parapsychology stuff is like foundational to who we are Oh yeah, no for sure I mean we're into this problem a lot with people who these days are studying occultism right? And it's called occulture right? Occult culture it's a neologism that was made by I forget his name it's in a book that I read recently anyway so the idea was that there's this occult culture and the occult culture has taken over what was essentially a pretty solitary enterprise that relied so much upon yourself the books were not that much help if you pick up a book on one of the books that was originally published maybe in the 1400s or 1500s on magic. There's very little in there you can do anything with unless you know how to use it. And you can't know how to use it unless you've actually done a lot of additional work before you ever got your hands on the book because the book is not going to help you. You can sort of, you know, mumble your way through everything but it's just not going to be very useful because there's pieces missing of the process. They're totally missing. They're given to you when you're being initiated. They're given to you through your own practice. But the books are cool and they open up your mind. They make you aware of all sorts of things. They give you a vocabulary maybe for discussing it. But unless you've actually done any kind of practice, spiritual practice, occult practice, let's call it, it's not going to be useful at all. So now what we have is we have a lot of books on this stuff. We have masses amounts of books in occultism and New Age and esoterica and everything else. And people buy them almost addicted because they think the next book is going to be the one that's going to do it for them. And that's just not going to happen. The first book that you got was probably enough. You just don't believe it. You don't understand it yet. Right? So unless you actually have the practice, unless you've painstakingly gone through what is basically deprogramming yourself, in a sense, which Scientologists would probably appreciate. but trying to get through and trying to get rid of some of the inbred responses to things that you've been brought up with, you've been acculturated to. You have to start pulling that away. You have to start questioning your own thoughts. You have to ask yourself who's actually doing the thinking. Exactly. And if you can get to that point and you get the realization of that, the rest of this then becomes a lot easier. It's the practice that has to precede some of this. There's a lot of written stuff out there. I'm guilty of writing a lot of books myself. But it's not going to lead you to enlightenment that way. It's going to give you roadmaps. It's going to give you suggestions. All of these books on occultism, esotericism, will introduce you to these things. But it's not going to do it for you. You know, the first time you light a candle to get something done is when you've crossed that threshold. And now you're putting what's basically just written words, massive amounts of paper and dead trees. you're putting it into an actual effect. You're doing something in the real world. That has a tremendous effect on the psyche that the books don't have. A book can be very revealing. It can make you go, aha, it can do all kinds of things that way. But unless you actually do something, anything, right, it doesn't mean anything to you. You have no context for it. You don't know where to put it. But it's the actual physical doing of things that puts everything into context. It gives you that discernment that I'm talking about. Because you know this is going to work and this isn't. You know fire is hot because you've touched it. Ice is cold because you've touched it. Reading about it is just not very useful. Not to you until you start actually doing it. And it makes deception so much more prevalent, especially in today's world where we're going in this direction where everything is remote. People don't go anywhere. Everyone who reports on anything is getting it through second, third, fourth, fifth hand knowledge. You have people that are on a TV screen or a computer screen reporting on something they heard from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who allegedly heard it from an anonymous source on the ground somewhere in some country. We're so disconnected from that. It scares me. How that's going to spiral out of control and compound over the next hundred years. Have you ever thought about that? all the time. You know, because the changes that have taken place since I've been alive, I'm not that old, but, you know, old enough. And the time that all of that, the change has been incredible. It's just not real anymore. Half of your experience now is not actually real. Right. It's been filtered through. It's been given to you. It's been curated. You don't know what is real. You have to go out there and actually see the reality yourself. I mean, I've traveled a lot. I've been all over the world. have lived overseas, have done all of this. You come back to the States and you're struck by the States as its own particular thing. It's isolated. It's an isolated culture, you know. Even you have a lot of foreign people living here, people who've moved here. My grandparents came here from overseas, right? So it's like the U.S. is its own machine, you know. and to maintain any kind of culture in it is almost more of a gesture than it is anything real, right? You can try to keep your food that you grew up with. You can try to keep the religion that you grew up with. These are all connections to your culture. But the culture around you is encroaching on it all the time. Every TV screen, every computer screen, every phone is right there encroaching on it. It's denaturing what you had that was real, right? It's making it into something else. it's synthesizing it, it's homogenizing it, little by little, right? That's okay for cultures to influence each other, there's no problem with that, and that's happened everywhere, there's no pure culture left anywhere, you know, on the planet as far as I'm concerned. Everything has been in contact with other cultures and other groups and other languages and other things. But there's a difference in when you're living in a life where you have to depend upon other people that you know in order to survive. That's a whole different world than having to depend upon nameless entities to survive. Right. Depending on your machine to survive is really different. You don't know how much you can rely on it. You can only rely on it as long as the batteries work, right? Right. When you're dealing with people, it's a whole different thing. When you're interacting with people, it's different. That direct communication changes something in your head. and then going back to just looking at the screens, then really wipes out a lot of empathy. It wipes out a lot of natural human responses. Yes. Because you're questioning your response with everything you see. Should I be angry at this or should I not? Is this real or is it fake? Right. When you have to do all of that editing constantly, right, it destroys some of your soul. It destroys some of your spirit. You're constantly questioning yourself. You're questioning your reality constantly, but you're not getting an answer. Right. It's okay to question it and then arrive at a solution to that, which you can do in the real world, right? Right. IRL and with people and with actual human beings. You can trust them or not trust them. You can be abused by them or not, but it's up to you now to act and react to something real. Yes. But on the machine, you're part of a simulacrum and you're living in a simulated reality. People talk about the matrix. we're contributing to it actively all the time. That's the problem with the matrix. We are a part of it. The people that depend on it, though, are becoming more and more vulnerable. And you can see that in Florida when these hurricanes come through and see how some of these people react to it. They freak out. They don't know how to handle it. Just this town, all around here, it was like Mad Max on the streets here. People were scurrying for water and toilet paper and didn't know what to do. And find the gas stations were, you know, getting drained of gas every couple hours. And it's just crazy. And at the same time that we're living in this crazy technological civilization where you can order your burrito and have a robot deliver it to you. There's people running around naked in the rainforest. Right. Uncontacted tribes. Yeah. Sentinel Island. Yeah. And I think if there was some sort of catastrophe or nuclear war that wiped us out, like, those would be the people who just survived. Yeah. for more than one reason. One, they're not close to the centers that are going to get nuked. And two, because they know how to survive. They are doing it. They're not going to rely upon the Internet for anything. So they're cool. They're fine. Yeah, and also in 10,000 years, there will probably be no evidence of us anymore. 20,000 years maybe. Who knows? I don't know how long until it would take the Empire State Building to disintegrate into dust. But Mount Rushmore, the Hoover Dam, and the Great Pyramids would still be here. Yeah, right. And people would think aliens build all of them. Yes, exactly. Oh, man. Going back to the UFO stuff and the Roswell stuff. First of all, what is your view on what happened at Roswell? because there's lots of different theories on what that was. A lot of people think that that was like Nazi. We address that in Secret Machines. Yeah. I think in the third volume. So there's, okay, we go back to Kenneth Arnold and his sighting. Yeah. Kenneth Arnold is the famous sighting. He says, I saw these things looked like they were saucers skipping over water, gave rise to flying saucer. He was created essentially inadvertently the term flying saucer. But to him, it wasn't a saucer shape. Right. It was like a disc with a bite out of it. Right. Well, flying wing, flying wing. And that's really identical to the Horton flying saucer that the Nazis were trying to develop at the end of World War Two. They had developed a flying wings was almost identical to what what he saw, Arnold. so that gave rise to a number of hypotheses as to what crashed in Roswell because this is the problem we don't really understand our history, not even our recent history very well we don't understand what technology was in development even as late as 1945, 46, 47 We don't know that because we haven't looked in that direction. What happened was around 1944, the SS held a meeting in Strasbourg at a hotel. They gathered together the heads of a lot of the important industries, German industries. This was just after D-Day. And the idea was we're going to lose the war. the handwriting's on the wall. So what we need you guys to do, the Thysons and all of the Volkswagens and whatever, all the major companies, what we need you guys to do is to expatriate those resources as much as possible. Get rid of the documents. Get rid of the drawings. Put them all on submarines. Whatever will help you. But we're going to get this stuff overseas. We cannot have this fall into allied hands. So all the technical data you have has got to go, including your engineers. Anybody who knows how this stuff is done, get rid of them as well. We're going to get rid of the gold. We're going to get rid of all the stuff that we've accumulated and stolen over the years, over the war. We're going to do our best to get rid of that stuff. What you guys need to do is get rid of the assets. You've got to diversify. Buy some corporations overseas. Move your people overseas. Make joint ventures, whatever. but we're in danger within less than a year this war is going to be over and they're going to have access to everything the Russians on the one side, the Americans, the British and the French on the other, we can't let that happen, Germany is doomed if that's happened, if that has happened that meeting took place it's very controversial whether it took place or not but it was real enough that the US Congress that year 1945 before the war was over Japan, we're still fighting Japan but in May and June of 1945 there was a major meeting of Congress and they issued this document that says here's all we know of that meeting that took place in Strasbourg and all of the companies we've identified overseas that the Nazis have access to they've either bought them or traded them or whatever here's a list I printed it out to book that thick okay it's that thick and it's companies in japan because they were allies at the time all over latin america different parts of the middle east different parts of europe companies ranches a real estate of various kinds they had moved everything overseas as much as they possibly could so they were running operations and they were experimenting with technology even as the war was finishing in nazi germany and before the war was even over in japan And we had Nazi scientists working on projects all around the world. Now, of course, when the war was over in Germany, we got the paperclip scientists. As it turns out, we got over a thousand. We thought at first it was 300, 400. Now we know it's more than a thousand. Closer to 1,500 that we brought over. And these were Nazis. I mean, they were not just, you know, Wernher von Braun. I didn't know, you know, I was just building rockets. I didn't know where they were going to land. That famous Tom Lehrer song. No, no, no, no. He was an SS officer. Right. And I think he was also in the SA, if I'm not mistaken. So he had different, he was up there. His boss, Dornberger, Walter Dornberger, was a fanatic Nazi. We brought him over, no problem. We sent him to Wright-Patterson, or Wright Field at the time, in July of 1947, when we brought the Roswell crash debris there. so Walter Dornberger who was the guy who ran Pinamunda, who ran all of their technology stuff in terms of rockets they sent him to Wright Field the same month as the boxcar with the debris from Roswell lands in Wright Field he was there with it why him? he was like the obvious guy to put there so it's a boxcar right we're shipping this material if this was really just a weather balloon it could have fit basically into a FedEx envelope this was on a train that they sent over to right field now maybe it was just a small box on the train I don't know but it was a box of debris and why are they sending it to right field to be analyzed what was the point they must have known what it was right so obviously it wasn't a weather balloon and it wasn't mogul I think we can pretty much bank on that so it was something else and Dornberger would have been the one to know whether or not this was German built technology or not the question remains who was flying it where did it come from where was it being built well there's a number of options we already had scientists in South America before the famous major flight of scientists to South America they were there since 44 they were there earlier actually in Chile and Argentina and Brazil we had German scientists there since the beginning we had German embassies down there So the Nazis had infiltrated that part of the world pretty solidly. They had access to the assets they would need to continue scientific investigation. But the problem we make as historians quite often is we cut the line here. Well, in 1945, Nazi Germany was done. End of story. They're not building any more machines. We forget that there was a major attempt to expatriate all of this technology overseas. To the Japanese, certainly, we captured that submarine. with uranium on board and designs for a nuclear weapon and scientists, the technicians, and an entire Messerschmitt that was broken down into pieces. All of us, we were shipping to Japan. We seized it in, I think, in Prince Edward Island, if I'm not mistaken, off the coast of Canada. But we seized it at that time. And there's a very strong story, a rumor, that people claim they saw Oppenheimer on board that submarine looking at the diagrams and looking at the uranium they had and all the rest of it. Whoa. Which would make perfect sense because until that time, they didn't know how to make the bomb. They had gotten that close, but they didn't get over the hump. They didn't know how to go the extra mile, right, to finish the war. So Oppenheimer goes back to Roswell, basically, well, to Arizona, New Mexico, and says, okay, now we know what we're doing, right? and they were able to get that bomb done in record time. The implication is he learned how because of what they were doing in Germany and what he saw on that submarine. Wow. So we write about that. I write about it in Sinister Forces as well in the third volume, I think. I give some documentation about that. So that's the possibility. The possibility is there were operations all over the world that was doing this. The German presence in South America was very strong since long before the war. Chile had a large Nazi party in the country of Chile long before the war started you went down there right? yeah I went down there so there was a very strong German population there are whole sections of Chile that are very German German bakeries, German shops, everything else that's not to say they're all Nazis but the Nazi party was very strong and a man who was a Nazi party member then became Chile's ambassador to India right? so the guy called Miguel Serrano and Miguel Serrano was a rabid Nazi and he was another nexus point of a Nazi who believed in UFOs, he believed in the Aryan race ideas he believed there were tunnels under the Andes Mountains where weird machinery was being developed he had all these ideas, he was really 100% and that Hitler was the Kalki avatar, Hitler was this avatar coming out of Shambhala, coming out of an underworld city that was going to purify the race. And he wrote books like this. And he's our ambassador to India. And he was a friend of the Dalai Lama. Which gets us into another story. If you want to talk about the Dalai Lama and Nazis, I got you right here. So, you know, that's another thing, right? And I wrote that in Unholy Alliance. I was very upfront back 30 years ago. I said, this is what was going on. Okay. The SS in 1935, they sent an expedition to Tibet there was the actual SS expedition to Tibet now when I first heard of this I didn't believe it, I thought this was more nonsense that somebody had invented to sell books, right? and I heard about this all the way back in the 70s and I went to the National Archives in the 1970s to the German Records Division and I went to talk to the archivist in those days, I don't know if it's still that way but you had to have a lot of ID. They had to clear you to get into this section where they had to capture German documents. And these were all on microfiche. These are the square microfiche, right? So I walked in and I talked to the archivist. Dr. Robert Wolff, I think his name is, a very famous guy. Everybody knew him at that time who dealt with Nazi technology, Nazi history. And I told him what I was looking for. He says, oh, you want the files on the Ananerba? And I said, I do? He says, yes. I'll bring you right here. So he leads me right to this table with all this microfiche. And I'm going through it, and I can't believe what I'm looking at. These are the SS records, the official SS documents, signed by Himmler, many of them, with Heil Hitler's on them all over the place. I'm looking at all the swastikas everywhere. And this was the secret society that Himmler had basically taken over in 1935, which was a society for studying Germany's ancient heritage, which basically meant paganism. of one kind or another. And he had turned this little sort of scholastic academic operation into a major SS unit. And they were going all over the world looking for proof of the Aryan race. And if they found a swastika in your backyard, you were a Nazi and you didn't know it, right? That's the mentality. They found swastikas everywhere. And so they started financing these elaborate missions. and one mission, the famous one, was this mission to Tibet and all the documents are there and I've copied some of them in my own, yep, there it is. As you can see, it was an official SS operation because in the back there's the flag of the Nazi party and the two SS flags. So this was not just a bunch of anthropologists on their own doing this, this was an official operation. Wow. Now, one of the guys running this thing was a guy called Schaeffer. And he was a pretty well-known anthropologist, even in American circles. He had lectured at the Museum of Natural History. Yeah, natural history. And places like that around the country. He was a pretty well-known guy. But one of the guys working for him was a guy called Bruno Beger. And Bruno Beger was your regular, typical anthropologist. He was along for the ride on this thing. and his photographs are a little strange. They take photographs of him with calipers and he's measuring the skulls of like Tibetans, right? To see if they're like Aryan enough, you know? So the skull measuring thing was a major thing of anthropology in those days. You could tell who was racially pure by the measurements of their skull. There it is. That's one of the pictures. So he's measuring the distance between, you know, the bridge of the nose and the nose itself. Wow. That's Bruno Beger himself. That's a Tibetan woman. this guy's a card-carrying Nazi oh yeah, big time because that's where I'm getting to so these people have met they didn't meet the Dalai Lama as far as, you know they met the Panchen Lama I think, which is like the second sort of in command they came back with a whole bunch of stuff they came back with documents they came back with all kinds of materials that they brought back and Himmler was like so pleased with this, right? but the war was going on now now the war is starting to take place they need as many resources as possible for the war effort they couldn't go on junkets anymore. But Beger himself decided what he wanted to do was create a museum of the human anatomy. And in order to create that museum, and I'm not making this up as hideous as it sounds, he would go to the concentration camps and he would pick out living specimens and he would say, I want this one, this one, and this one. Right? You can do whatever you have to do, but don't destroy the skeletal remains and don't destroy the tissue as much as possible. I can try to see what I can use. So he picked out people to be executed. They were shipped to his facility where they were defleshed. They had vats, which they found after the war, where he was defleshing these corpses. Oh, my God. So he could retain the skeletons in perfect condition and then arrange them as a kind of museum. Oh, this is a Jewish person. This is a Russian. this is a Slav, you know, on and on. So he could say these are typical anatomical specimens. Okay, so war crimes, big time. Except he was denoxified after the war, after like a year or two. He was denoxified and he went right back out doing his thing. And he became a close friend of the Dalai Lama. And he started writing articles for the newsletters that were printed out of Dharamsala, you know, in northern India, where the Dalai Lama made his headquarters. So they're printing articles by Bruno Beger, how much he loved Tibet. Until finally somebody said, wait a minute to the Dalai Lama, you don't want this guy here writing these articles. Do you understand? You had enough problem with Heinrich Herrer and seven years in Tibet with that guy who was SS and SA, right? And who turned out to be kind of a questionable character as it turns out. You know, you don't want more Nazis on the payroll. You really don't. You don't want to start staffing all these people. So he evidently took the art of the time. Less Nazis on the payroll is always better. That's what I'd say. Fewer Nazis, the better. So this was, but this was the situation. The Nazis, you know, and Herrer, as it turns out, you know, was questionable. And a lot of his fellow anthropologists claimed that he was working for the intelligence agencies, that he was part of that operation, right? that his involvement with the Dalai Lama led to him being involved with CIA to a certain point because they were trying to get him out of Tibet, you know, and into India safely, right, when they knew the Chinese were getting close. So there was this operation where one of the famous American anthropologists was also a CIA operative, was in Tibet with Heinrich Herrer, you know, who had already been in Tibet, and they're both trying to figure out how to get the Dalai Lama out. And that led to an association, it is believed, with Heinrich Herra, who then did favors for CIA or for some intelligence operation in the rest of the years of his life as he went around different countries as the hero of the seven years in Tibet background. Wow. He was in Papua New Guinea. He wrote a book about that that I have, that I read through, and I said, wait a minute, man, this does not look real, you know? And I started researching it, and it was banned, panned, I should say not banned, but panned by other anthropologists who said, this is bullshit, you know? What this guy is doing, this has nothing to do with anthropology. He was obviously on a mission of some kind. And they really attacked it. And you didn't hear about that book very much after that. But it was obvious. He showed his colors numerous times. And where did the Horton brothers end up? One wound up in Argentina, predictably. The other brother, for some reason, he offered himself to American industry, American intelligence. They didn't want him for some reason. and that was the brother that was the pilot. They let that pilot go. They didn't want him. The other brother was the real engineer and technician, and that's the one who wound up in Argentina. But just in case you're wondering how that works with us and the Nazis, I'll give you a really direct example. There was a guy called Hans Rudel. He was the famous Nazi pilot. He was like an ace pilot. He shot down all kinds of craft and everything else. He was one of the last people to see Hitler in the bunker. He left shortly thereafter. Rudel was a really well-known ace. He shot down a lot of American, British, I think Russian planes as well. But as I'm researching Rudel, I came across in the archives his address book. Hans Ulrich Rudel's address book. And I love address books because they're great for doing research. there's names, addresses, phone numbers even though they're old, they provide an entree they provide a way to understand what's going on and this address book was replete with names, you know with people that you wouldn't expect would be there including Klaus Barbie, right and including David Irving who wrote these famous books attacking saying the Holocaust wasn't real a Holocaust denier, all these people are in there, and I'm doing this research and I find one name that doesn't look very familiar, it's an American, it's an American address I followed that up. It turns out this was a scientist who had worked for the Johnson administration. And he said, oh, yes, Hans Ulrich Rudel. Yes, sure. No, we used him from time to time. We like to question him as to better designs for aircraft, you know, for fighter jets and stuff like that. So he was part of our, you know, he would go to Washington once in a while. We'd have him in and we'd hang out. He'd talk to us about aircraft. Hans Ulrich Rudel, at the same time he was doing that, for us, was running basically Odessa. He was like the major figurehead, along with Otto Skorzeny, of the underground Nazi networks throughout the world. Rudel would go to these places in Bolivia, Argentina. He went to the place I went to in Chile. There's records of him being there, making speeches and stuff about the old days and about Nazism and everything. This was a guy who was actively involved in helping to protect Nazi war criminals to escape. And we didn turn we didn care It like no big deal He knew about aircraft We didn have to know about aircraft We would bring him up every once in a while He could fly into and out of the United States no problem because he was not technically considered a war criminal But he managed the war criminal enterprise to help the war criminals escape. What percent chance do you give that Hitler got out? I wrote a book on it. Right. I asked the right guy. Yeah. I wrote a book because I came across evidence of an escaped Nazi in Indonesia, of all places. I was in Indonesia. I had a three-month semester there when I was getting my degree, my master's degree. It was not that long ago, 2005 or something, 2006. And while I was there, I started to hear these stories that Hitler died in Indonesia. And I said, yeah, right. No, no, really, he died in, we know where he's buried. I said, no, you didn't die in Indonesia. He died in the bunker. We know he died in the bunker. I believe that all the way up until that time, until 20 years ago. And then I came across these publications, and okay, Hitler died in Indonesia, all right. But then there's photographs of documents. Well, that got my attention. What are these documents? And I took them back to the United States and I started to research these documents. Okay, maybe not Hitler, but this was a German, This was a Nazi war criminal who, by the way, was using the same shorthand in his diaries that Eva Braun had studied and learned. How she got her job as a stenographer. A very bizarre form of German stenography. Written the same way. And the informants in Indonesia said, no, he was here with Eva Braun. It was Hitler and Eva. It was a blonde woman and it was this guy. And there's photographs of this guy. And I said, no, this is not Hitler. This is this weird skinny guy. He's got a kind of a Hitler mustache. But that can't be Hitler. And then I saw the old pictures of Hitler when he was still in World War I in the trenches. And the guys look pretty similar. Ear shape is the same, which is a big important thing as well. Jawline, everything. And the guy was born in Austria. Hitler was born in Austria. I have copies of the passports. And it's okay. There's something really strange going on here. Who the hell is this guy? Right? and the person who broke this story was an Indonesian military doctor who visited the guy he heard about him on this remote island in Indonesia, not downtown Jakarta in a remote island all the way out there which was really remote then, especially it's remote now, it was really remote then so he goes up, he has to see this guy, he's going into the jungles and stuff to see this guy at this outpost that he has in this small town and he's talking to this guy and it's a German doctor He didn't think about Hitler at the time, but it's a German doctor. It's a blonde woman. He's running this clinic there for the Indonesians and everything else, but he has all these old pictures and stuff and on and on. Guy thinks it's kind of weird, you know, and he has one or two pictures, I guess. He comes back. He doesn't think much more of it until the whole Hitler diaries hoax happens. If you remember that, that was in the 80s, I think. Someone claimed they had all of Hitler's forgotten diaries and they were going to publish them, and it turned out to be a hoax. but the story was covered all over the world and when the guy saw pictures in the newspapers in Indonesia of these diaries and of the people and Hitler and everything else he said, oh my god, I was talking to Hitler and this was a military guy right, so he's trying to get this case open, he wants to go and find this guy and see if maybe he should be arrested or something it's Hitler, living in Indonesia and the military kind of shouted him down and said, don't be ridiculous and blah blah blah in the meantime this guy winds up dying right but he dies married to an Indonesian woman because the Eva Braun woman decided she didn't want any more Indonesia, she goes back to Austria, not Germany Austria so he converts to Islam and he marries this Indonesian woman and the Indonesian woman survives him he dies mysterious, it's a whole story about how he dies, it's very mysterious he dies in a coastal city called Surabaya he was perfectly healthy when he got there he died within a day of being there and so they buried him it's all over and this doctor goes and visits the widow and she gives him these documents the diary and everything else that he has photographs, all this stuff and he takes it with him, this is in the 1980s and he doesn't know what to do with it he's trying to do something with it he doesn't know what to do with it eventually he dies but before he dies or just shortly after he dies these documents wind up with some other guy and that's the guy I finally meet in Singapore his name is Mark Kong he's a Chinese guy who got very involved with this family for some reason and he had all these documents and I had pictures of many of them and I could take those documents and then after I met him go through and do a deep dive and analyze it as it turned out this guy if he wasn't Hitler which is a pretty good chance he was not Hitler but he was a wanted war criminal he was a guy called and he was the military officer in the Salzburg district of Austria he was the guy who determined if you were too sick to live you got killed if you were mentally deficient you got killed he was the guy who wrote those orders so he was a war criminal and he was wanted and he was married to a woman who looked kind of like Ava Braun. Oh, wow. So there were wanted notices for this guy, as I later discovered. One of my readers sent me a notice. I said, we found a notice for this guy, right? And so he was wanted. He was a wanted war criminal. The Allies were looking for him to arrest him. He got out. He disappeared somewhere in the Tyrol in northern Italy for a while near Bergamo. And he was out there, and he was for a couple of years, which is very unusual. Then he goes to Switzerland. Don't know why. Then he manages to get a passport and manages to escape via the Netherlands to Indonesia. And he winds up in Indonesia. He goes to Jakarta, he and his wife, and they open bank accounts, it seems. But they don't stay in Jakarta for any length of time. They wind up in this remote island. well thanks to my readers who have really sharp eyes they said wait a minute we see a picture of this thing that you have with these two male and female diagrams on it these symbols and these numbers next to it and some mysterious letters we don't know what that is I didn't know what that was but they found out what it was would you believe it and they said that's the name of a bank that's the name of a bank that you actually wrote about in your other book on Hitler and I said you've got to be kidding me they said no so I went and I looked it over and I did the examination and sure enough these two war criminals opened bank accounts in Jakarta for a bank that was used to launder Nazi gold after the war 40 tons of Nazi gold left the Bank of Lisbon as the Clinton Foundation the Clinton administration eventually found out because they were doing research in Nazi war criminals and they had discovered the trace of 40 tons of gold that disappeared from the bank of Lisbon on a ship wound up in Macau. In Macau it was divided into two lots of 20 tons each. One bunch of 20 tons stayed in China, in Macau. Maybe it went into a casino operation there, maybe it went into a bank there, or maybe it was used to finance Chiang Kai-shek's war against Mao Zedong, we don't know. The other 20 tons wound up in Jakarta, and it wound up in this bank. And it formed the core of what they call the Revolutionary Fund, which Sukarno, at that time, he was the first president of Indonesia after throwing out the Dutch. Sukarno was trying to create an anti-IMF, an anti-International Monetary Fund, an anti-world bank that would just be used for the non-aligned people in other words those who are neither communists nor aligned with the United States and its allies but the southern hemisphere people South America, Asia, like that let's make our own bank we're going to use this money that we have he didn't say it was Nazi gold but it was the famous revolutionary fund 20 tons of gold wound up in Jakarta at the same bank that this guy belonged to wow Which was not a real bank. It was a drawer in an office building somewhere, right? It was not an actual big physical bank. Right, right. It was an office building, in an office. That's insane. So that is as much as I found out about... Yeah. It's a good thing I was researching Hitler, did Hitler live or die? Because it did raise a lot of questions about Hitler. It is hard to believe that all of those top level military generals and people, doctors and everyone were all able to get out. and not Hitler. Right. Like he was the one guy who was noble enough to stay behind and go down with the shit. Well, my problem with the story turned out to be based on the actual evidence because no one's actually seen evidence of his body. This is the problem. The story is he and Eva Braun, they committed suicide or killed each other or whatever happened in the bunker. They were taken out and their bodies were burned outside the bunker in Berlin. Right. Okay. The story on its face doesn't seem too credible. From what people who do this for a living, who do cremations for a living, say, you can't do it that way. You can kind of burn the flesh off the bodies to a certain extent, but you're not going to destroy the entire body this way. You need a lot of heat, tremendous amounts of heat to destroy a complete body. Yeah. You can't get to the bones. You can't even get to the organs are still cooking. I mean, the amount of oil they had, the amount of kerosene or gasoline they poured in the bodies was not enough to cremate the bodies. Not even all the soft tissue. No. So then what happens is the Soviets are the first ones to reach the bunker, right? Smersh, right? The Soviet spy organization, they're the people that reach the bunker first. They take that material out of the, whatever they burned in that crypt where they burned the bodies. They took everything out and they put it in body bags or whatever they had and they moved it immediately. They moved everything immediately somewhere else. and the Soviet Union, when the Soviet Union fell their documents eventually became released and we now know what happened they took the bodies out they buried them after a couple of days they dug them up and put them someplace else buried them again, dug them up again finally buried them someplace else in East Germany under where they would eventually put the KGB office for East Germany so the bodies were buried there but the skull and the teeth were kept and there were dental records that they kept because they went to a dentist check this out Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun go to see a dentist in Berlin two weeks before the fall of Berlin to have new dentures made did they get an x-ray too? so they have the dentures they have the x-rays why are they getting dentures made two weeks before the fall of Berlin when Germany is in chaos they need dentures and they need two sets each two sets each of the dentures. Obviously, now with hindsight, they're going to bury one set and they're going to use the other set to escape. That's crazy. They found the dentist, right? The dentist admits he made the two sets of dentures. He admits when it all happened, his records are there. The Germans kept meticulous records. So they have the records. Now, somebody that I know, He was the state archaeologist for the state of Connecticut. I had run into him on another thing that I was doing regarding vampires in Connecticut. Long story. But anyway, he's the state archaeologist. So I had contacted him over that vampire story, and then eventually I contacted him again because he had gone to Moscow when the Soviet Union fell to actually look at the box that held the remains of Hitler. Right. I want to see Hitler's skull and everything else, right? So they let him see the Hitler's skull. And he looks at the skull and he says, this is not Hitler. This is a woman's skull. Plus there's a bullet hole in it where it shouldn't be. There's a bullet hole in it, yeah. Right? So that didn't make sense, right? So he came back with a piece of it and he subjected it to analysis that's not related to Hitler. So the Soviets had something that they kept, right, that they believed was Hitler's skull, which was in KGB headquarters all this time, right, but really turned out not to be. What was the story, though, behind the bullet hole? The story was like, so he, like, poisoned himself and it didn't work, so he shot himself or she shot him or something. Right. That's the official story. There are two or three different official stories. Right. Right, different prisoners, prisoners who were imprisoned by the Soviets said one thing. By the British, they said something else. By the Americans, they said something else. None of the stories matched. Yeah, I had a forensic pathologist on the podcast about a year ago who got access to the archives in Moscow, and he analyzed the remains of the jawbone. and he I mean he said they had to go through like all kinds of crazy like clearances and stuff to get in there and like they had to like go in and like meet with the KGB or the FSB or whoever it was and go through all this stuff to get access to it and sign a bunch of documents and stuff like that and I made a joke about it, about him going in there I don't think he appreciated it but he came to the conclusion and he said that it matched whatever the jawbone that he analyzed. He said it was a real jawbone, and it matched the x-ray that happened two weeks before he died or two months before he died or whatever. I mean, he didn't say anything about dentures. He seemed to be under the impression that it was legit. Well, he had very bad teeth, Hitler. He had almost no teeth in his head. Right. He only had one or two teeth. Right. Right. Right. Everything else was dentures. Uh-huh. I'm not saying he escaped, right? Hitler escaped. He could have. and would have made it sense for him to go to Indonesia. I'll tell you why. For him to go to South America when everybody was dropping a dime on everybody else, he wouldn't have done that. He would have gone somewhere else. He would have gone somewhere because that was the prize. Mengele gets off scot-free if he can deliver Hitler. So Hitler wouldn't have gone to South America. I'm 100% certain he would not have gone there. I think he would have gone someplace where they would never think of looking for him. Yeah, I think it's very highly possible that he did not kill himself in that bunker. If he left, he would have gone to a Muslim country because they would have protected him. Right? Because of the whole thing with the Muslim division of the SS and everything else. He would have had cover. Right? And they would have protected him. If nothing else, they would have protected him against Israel. Right. So going to Indonesia would have made sense. I just don't see Hitler really living life large on an island in the South Pacific. But who knows? Yeah. It's possible. Yeah, his health was on the decline. Yeah. Rapid decline. Well, he was addicted to all kinds of drugs. Yeah. He had like Parkinson's or something, right? But it could have been just an effect of all the freaking drugs he was being given. Right. Because he had a quack doctor giving him all kinds of stuff. Mostly a lot of cocaine. I'm sure you've heard Andy Jacobson's take on Roswell. Yeah. She claims to have interviewed a guy about it and who claims that it was Nazi-engineered, sent over by Stalin with two babies that were surgically modified by Mengele. And the idea, she asked him, she's like, well, why wouldn't we just expose this for what it really was? It would paint them terribly. And this guy who was supposedly some sort of like EG&G engineer said because we were doing the same stuff. Is that just some sort of disinfo, you think? I kind of think so. Yeah. But I'll give you what could be the factual background of it. Stalin imported way more Nazi scientists than we did. Yeah. He built them a whole city. Right. Okay. So he had thousands of people there. He tried to get as many as he could. So, and he got, they built a prototype. We know that they built a flying saucer prototype. We know for a fact. We know for a fact. We have the number, the design number and everything. We know that they did. Okay, that came about after the fall of the Soviet Union. A lot of stuff was revealed. And that was one of the things that they had. They were firm believers in this whole UFO thing, the Soviets. But by the same token, they just felt it was just a slightly more advanced technology than the Nazis had. And we could get there, you know. Then they got involved in this thing with, you know, anti-gravity and all the rest of it. So they're starting to get, you know, Horton was not involved. designing an anti-gravity device originally. Just a regular, you know, an unusual shape for an aircraft. But then the anti-gravity people started getting involved and all the other people started getting involved. They started looking for alternate exotic forms of propulsion. That was being done big time in the Soviet Union. So would that have been possible? Yeah. By 1947, that's reach. That's a reach. You know? what's your big picture perspective on what's going on with all of this stuff this whole disclosure movement this whole legacy program people talking about NHI being real I've heard so many crazy stories from like ex-intelligence people saying they're like they're demonic or like they had nefarious intent just so many crazy stories I don't know like I'm to the point where I'm like checked out on it Do you have any sort of cohesive 30,000-foot view of this whole thing? Well, starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory, and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. that's shopify.nl it's time to see what you can accomplish with shopify by your side starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life shopify helps millions of business sell online build fast with templates and ai descriptions and photos inventory and shipping sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl That's Shopify.nl It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side What started this back in the day was a book by Nick Redfern called The Collins Elite and that wasn't called The Collins Elite it was called Final I forget Final Solution I don't want to say Final Solution something like that. Anyway, but it was about the Collins Elite, something that he called the Collins Elite The Collins Elite is supposed to be this ad hoc group of UFO people in the government interested in UFOs but they are Christians to the point where they believe that UFOs are demonic that they believe that our friends Hubbard and Parsons and Crowley out in the Mojave Desert actually made a hole and somehow contacted the UFOs right? And it was like a demonic ritual magic that started this thing. This is where it starts to cross over between the typical UFO stuff and then the occult stuff. Okay. Because there's this belief system within, and it's still within government. Really? There are still a number of people in government who say you cannot talk about UFOs. It's demonic. It's against God. It's in the Bible. You can't go there. And so they're really trying to stop some of this disclosure from happening. Is John Alexander part of this group? Of a Collins elite group? No, no, no. The people that believe in this narrative. Oh, I don't think he believes in the narrative. Oh, no? Okay. No, I don't think that. I wouldn't put John Alexander in that category. Okay. I think he was very skeptical when it comes to UFOs. I mean, this guy takes a very skeptical approach to it. But then, you know, there was Skinwalker Ranch and all kinds of other things that happened around John Alexander. began to get a bit more open to the idea that there's more going on here than we realize. But he was not like this true believer UFO guy, one way or the other. Right. You're saying there's echoes of this group. Oh, still today, for sure. Yeah, yeah. For sure. Especially now with like a kind of Christian nationalism thing happening. You can't go there because this is demons, angels and demons territory. Right. Right? And we're not equipped to deal with that, so you can't have disclosure for that reason. So there's that pushback that still exists. So there is this idea that, you know, this is something which is, since we can't capture it, we can't attack it, we can't do anything about it. It has total dominion over our skies if it wants to. It shows up when it wants to, when it wants to. We can't predetermine this. We cannot control them. There's all these stories about, you know, back in the day Eisenhower signed a contract with the aliens. How does that work? It's a good question. I don't know. Tell me how a contract with aliens would work. What would it look like? Right. What language would it be in? And would it be good for just the United States or, like, for the whole world? How does that work, too? Right. Does everybody have to sign their own contracts? Right. Is there a contract, like, you know, fights over this or the lawyers get involved, you know? I mean, just think about it. It doesn't make any sense, right? Yeah, it's like, are we signing contracts with uncontacted tribes? Yeah, right. But we jump into this thing. The UFO believers will just jump in. So, yes, they signed a contract. I've signed contracts. I signed a huge contract in China when I was doing business in China for years. And we signed a contract just to rewire a bank building in downtown Beijing. That contract was several feet thick. Just the English portion, another portion, and then in Chinese, another couple of feet. Contracts are there in case you have to go to court. Right. I don't think any alien is going to show up in a court of law. No. What kind of agreement can you make with an alien? How do you enforce an agreement with an alien? Exactly. You're going to send them a cease and desist. Right. If they screw around and they say, sorry, we broke the... What do you do then? There's nothing... We have no power over them, right? Right. Demonstrably, we have no power over them, which means we have no sovereignty, which is a major problem for the U.S. government. Disclosure is a problem for them because they would have to come out and say, sorry, guys, we don't control the skies. Right. They do. In fact, they probably control the oceans. In fact, we're not so sure about underground either. Right? We control like about this much here. Very thin layer. And only if they don't show up and bomb us for some reason, right? Or land on our thin layer and abduct our citizens or something. So there's no possibility of an agreement with them, number one. So they cannot protect us on a legal basis for sure. But they also on a technological basis cannot defend us. We don't know where they come from. we can't invade their territory. All ideas of warfare go out the window. Yeah, we have no map of where they operate. No, we have no leverage at all. So we're at the mercy of these things. And they show up when they want to, disappear when they want to. They want to abduct a citizen, they may do that. They want to scare the shit out of somebody, they'll do that. Missing time, look what they did to the family and to the couple in New Hampshire. Right? The very first real... Betty and Barney Hill? Yeah. If you listen to those tapes. Do you believe in that stuff? Do you think that stuff's real? I listen to the tape. I listen to Benny's hypnosis tape. Yeah, but we also talked about implanting fake memories and stuff like that. Do you think that's possible? We tried, for sure. MKUltra tried that. They're being sued for it now. Right. Okay, so that was on the table. So, no matter how you look at the Betty and Barney Hill situation, whether it's the government or the aliens they're equally bad there's nothing good coming out of that either we did it because we're screwing around which I kind of doubt because the time scale doesn't really seem to match but either we did it or something really strange happened to Betty and Barney Hill to the point where he said they looked like Nazis that's what he said in his tape what? he said they looked like Nazis they were dressed like Nazis and he was screaming in terror on the audio tape. Yes. So he's in some sort of hypnotic regression. Yeah. So they somehow put him to sleep and put him in a trance and they're drawing, the psychologists are drawing this stuff out of them. Yeah. And there's corroboration. They're doing, Betty and Barney do this separately. Right. Separate occasions. And they corroborate similar experiences. They both talk about Nazis. No, she doesn't talk about Nazis. Her idea of it is kind of more benevolent. It's like, not benevolent, but like don't worry Barney it'll be okay you know like that and Barney's like freaking out they're Nazis how can they be okay right and he's a black man in New Hampshire in 1960s so what the fuck right so you want to scare the shit out of somebody you pick the right people at the right time so what was what do you think it was what do you think it was that got Betty and Marty Hill it's the phenomenon what we to talk about to the stars and Tom's along we call it the phenomenon We don't know what the hell it is. We call it the phenomenon. It's the UFO phenomenon for sure. You don't think it has anything to do with humans? Well, anything to do with humans. You don't think it's possible that it's any sort of like super secret program experiment that we are doing? Since the beginning of time, roughly? I don't know. Like how do you square the Nazi stuff? His filter, probably. Maybe, yeah. He's interpreting what he sees as Nazis. Maybe they're wearing sort of militaristic looking uniforms. Right. He didn't say he saw swastikas, I don't think. But he did say they look like Nazis. You know, my favorite alien abduction accounts are David Huggins. David Huggins. You familiar with him? Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. Completely just the guy doesn't give a shit. Right. Exactly. And he seems like such a sweet, nice, gentle guy who just likes drawing these pictures. And like, wow, what a crazy story. There's a great documentary about him called Love and Saucers. I don't know if you've ever seen it. I've heard of it. I haven't seen it, but I've heard of it. Yeah, this dude Brad made it, and it's an amazing film. But like the parallels. What about Whitley Streeper? Yeah, Whitley's crazy. That stuff's crazy too, man. I don't know what to make of Whitley's stuff. I don't know what to make of it. But, you know, I had, Giorgiani is, like, I found Whitley's story super fascinating and compelling. You know, he's also, like, a crazy, prolific science fiction author. And Jason Giorgiani is, like, obsessed with Whitley's stories. He's read all of his books multiple times. He's listened to all of his interviews going back into when he was talking to Arbel and all this stuff. And, like, Whitley's got this weird connection to this military base in Texas when he was a kid that did experiments on him. Yeah. And, you know. Randolph Air Force Base. That's where Strokehold was sent, the guy who was in charge of Nazi medicine. He was one of the paperclip scientists. Right. Yeah. And he talks about going to this place. I forget where it was. I want to say it was maybe in Mexico or something where they subjected these kids to torture videos or like really horrific films and told them they were responsible for it. Some sort of attempt to partition their minds or something weird. And like if they were doing that shit to kids and if Whitley was a part of that and then simultaneously is experiencing these crazy abduction events later. life, I don't know what to make of it. I just don't know what to make of it. Exactly. I remember that Whitley's story lines up with the Finders cult. What does the Finders remind me of that? Finders, this was a story that broke, I think it was in the 70s, in Florida, actually, I think in Tallahassee. There were some kids playing in a public park, but they looked malnourished, they were dirty, and clothes were threadbare. And some people passing by are looking at these kids and they seem to be under the control of these two really well-dressed guys in a van, right? They're sort of watching them, sunglasses the whole nine yards. They look like bodyguards or something. And so the people, the civilians passing by call the cops. So the cops show up and they arrest everybody. Like, what the hell is this? Who are these kids? Why do you have these kids? And they take the kids into a room and they started talking to them, you know, where did you come from? Who are you guys? What's going on here? And the kids say, oh, we're going to a special school in Mexico. You know? And, yeah, we're part of this school thing that we're going to. And they're in the office, the police office, and they're looking at all the equipment in the police office, in the police department office, and they see telephones and they didn't know what they were. Right? So something really weird was taking place. So the cops hold on to them. And the two guys who were with them refused to talk. Right? The two guards refused to talk. And they say, you know, we work for the government. You know, here's a phone number you can call. So they call this number. And there's this group in Washington, D.C. at the time called Finders. And it was like a hippie kind of commune kind of thing. Except that the guy who ran it was former OSS. Right? And they were doing contract jobs for CIA. They're based in Washington in a warehouse. So the place gets raided. Metropolitan police in D.C. raid the place. And they come up with videos of kids and rituals and passports to foreign countries, visas for China and for Korea and everything else, a whole bunch of stuff, right? and they want to press charges. They want these people to go down. Like, what the hell is all this about, right? And as they're trying to do this, a guy comes in from D.C., well, they're in D.C., from the government, from CIA, allegedly, and says to them, you're not doing this anymore. You're dropping the case. It's over, okay? We have jurisdiction now. See you. and the whole thing was dropped. Nobody went to jail. Nobody was arrested. Nothing happened. The only reason we know about this is because one of the cops had enough of that and dumped it, right? Blew the lid on it. All the documents, whatever he could find that he still had access to, he made custody of. He went and told the story. Now, the story sounds like something made up on QAnon, except it was reported in the U.S. News and Business Report and in all the major outlets of the time. That story made news. What year? I don't remember offhand, but there it is. The Finders. The Finders. 1995? Well, this is much later. Okay. Dude, oh my gosh. Like, read this part. The documents describe Finders' interest in children abduction, pornography, terrorism, bank secrecy, and explosive customs documents detailed a gruesome collection of photographs taken at the finder's farm involving children and the sacrifice of a goat. The photos portrayed the execution, disembowelment, skinning, and dismemberment of goats at the hands of children. What? And then right here it shows the CIA's ties. One of the most damaging and disturbing aspects of the customs documents was the CIA's involvement with the finders and the CIA's termination of the criminal investigation. The investigation into the activity of the finders had become a CIA internal matter. The MPD report, Metropolitan Police Department, Metropolitan Police Department report had been classified secret. A finder's passport discovered during the raid included travel to Moscow, North Korea, and Vietnam from 1956 to 1975. State Department officials declared the travel was legitimate and to terminate further investigation. Oh, my God. So this was all oral testimony from somebody? Or was there any, like, so this was basically one of the cops in Florida was giving this report verbally. God damn. And it's never been contradicted. I mean, the finders group continued to exist long after this. They didn't suddenly disappear. They were not hiding at all. And what do you think the end goal of this was? Or what was the purpose of this? I mean, if this was a... What was the CIA trying to get out of it? Like, what's your wildest speculation? I would just say it's an outgrowth of MKUltra MKUltra officially was disbanded long before the finders were discovered officially if they had good data from that they would have kept it and found another way to use it now the guy who was the head of the CIA at the time said there was nothing useful there we ran this operation for like 20 years. We still didn't find anything useful and therefore we terminated it and we destroyed all the documents. They literally burned everything they had on MKU. That's important to understand. What happened was they didn't burn some of the financial records. Those survived in a basement somewhere and four cartons of those came to light. And when they did, it gave you financial ways to track what projects were being undertaken, because they all had project numbers and project names associated with dollar amounts. So you start pulling at the threads, and you start to unravel what was taking place. So like the original documents, and the really deep stuff would have been destroyed, but the evidence that actually it took place existed. They realized that financial stuff was their downfall, right? Because the finances linked to projects which could link back into CIA's operations. so that kind of track had to be broken right so if you're going to conduct mk ultra type stuff and you don't want to be found later there's got to be an erasable financial trail you can't have the money come back and bite you in the ass right so you have to set up systems where you have firewalls between how you're spending the money and who's spending it right and what projects are being used with that money of course we've done that pretty well since then i think the difference they pretty much don't know how to do that. But back in the day, that was like a different thing, right? They were still getting their feet wet on all of this. CIA was a new operation. They had been created in 1947, the same year as Roswell, the same year as all this other stuff was going on. So it was created that same year. So then they were involved in all this stuff in Southeast Asia and in Europe with the Italian communists and they were doing all kinds of stuff around. And as Johnson once said, they were committing, you know, it was like Murder, Inc. in the Caribbean. They were just killing people, deposing people, doing whatever they wanted to do. So they had to be stopped, right? That's what Kennedy tried to do, and eventually they were stopped. By the 1970s with Watergate and all the revelations that came out of Watergate, it led to a steamroll effect, and you had revelations about the assassinations, revelations about MKUltra, brainwashing, and all of this. All that stuff started coming out in the 70s. And I was there for it. I read three newspapers a day during that time. I was one of those psychos you see in the films who had the scissors and they're cutting out articles from newspapers and building these file folders because that's all there was there was no internet so you're just doing that but that's what I did and I cross-referenced that way I had index cards and trying to keep track of all of this and then of course they got more sophisticated and more sophisticated so they have the Freedom of Information Act which you can try to pry things out but it's really up to them whether they're going to let you have it or not so that's another problem and there's been very good people doing work with the FOIA requests, but you're still fighting this. You're still trying to find out what really is going on. If I was CIA and I knew that the UFO phenomenon was real, no matter what it was, but that it was real and it was not man-made, but that it was affecting people all over the world in different ways, what's my task at this point? the only in I have to the UFO is not their technology it's the people their experiences maybe that's the key to understanding what that technology is because I don't have access to it or maybe I have a saucer or a craft but when you go inside of it there are no control systems there's nothing there nobody reports seeing dials you know, wheels and guidance systems, nothing. It's clean surfaces, right? Yeah. That's the report that people give. So if I'm CIA, I'm going to say to myself, why should I believe these people are imagining it? These people are suffering from PTSD, right? What's going on here? Let me find out more. Let me find out how this works. I may have to take drastic measures to find out how this works because I don't know how close we are to some kind of an invasion or something. And as I've written about in other places, the invasion may not be physical craft. The invasion may be one day we all wake up having had the same dream. The invasion could be consciousness. The invasion could be manipulation. It could be purely psychological. And if I'm CIA, I'm thinking, if the phenomenon knows how to do that, because these people are saying, we see weird things, we see people, we see angels, we see demons, we see little creatures we see blondes, we see nordics, we see greys you know is this manipulation, is this direct manipulation of consciousness by whatever is creating the phenomenon if so, let's work backwards, let's go into the human psyche, let's pick out these people and work our way back in and see how that happened whoa I've never heard it put that way but that makes a lot of sense if the people that are experiencing stuff It seems to be the people that experience it once experience it multiple times. And if they are somehow, some way, either inherently or by accident, tapped into it somehow, if we can use them as a portal to access it and learn more about it, they would do that. That makes a lot of sense. and they would do it in Mexico and not in the United States. That's so crazy. As a footnote to that, because Whitley and I, we've been in contact for decades. Yeah. And he told me about the experience that he had at Randolph Air Force Base. Yeah. And he's talked about this before. I'm not telling tales out of school, but he had horrible experiences. at Randolph. And there was always this German guy who seemed to be responsible. And he wanted me to find out who it was. Which was, you know, because I was the guy, my first book was Unholy Alliance. It was about the Nazi underground, right? So I had traveled to Chile. I had done all this research. I had been actually detained in Chile. Almost didn't get out. So I knew where some of the bodies were buried literally and figuratively. He said, can you go and find out who this might have been at Randolph, because if he was at Randolph, he was working for Sturgholt, Hubertus Sturgholt, who was the mastermind of the Nazi aviation medicine thing, where they used concentration camp prisoners to see how much cold you could take, how much pressure, how much fuel, all that kind of weird stuff. Yeah. So this was the guy in charge of that, and he was in charge of NASA's, you know, aerospace medicine, right? Out of Randolph. so you know it's probably one of his guys can you find out who it was so I would go through I went through I mean it took me years to do this because a lot of the documents that I needed were not online people had died or they were not around so eventually after many years after only I think it was only a couple of years ago that I actually found out who this guy was and he did he was involved with the school he was an administrator for a school a German school, German cultural school I think it was in Colombia if I'm not mistaken, Bogota and he had been involved with the German let's call it the psychiatric institute which they had developed because the Germans didn't feel they had any psychiatric problems but everybody else did so they had this institute that they had founded and anyway he was involved with that but he was also very heavily involved in the school which had to be closed down during World War II because it was such a hotbed of Nazi activity. And that's in a country that had a lot of Nazis in it, Colombia at the time. There was a Nazi presence there, as it was all over South America, heavily in Mexico, by the way. So this guy was involved with that particular school. And then he disappears during the time when Whitley is at Randolph as a kid, right? And then he kind of reappears again later. So I narrowed him down. And I got basically where he was at certain points in time and why he would have been the person that would have been used. And I gave that information to Whitley. So this was something that Whitley was saying to himself. And he himself had entertained the idea that maybe everything that I have, maybe these are screen memories. Maybe the alien stuff is a screen memory for the abuse that I had entertained. Yeah. Right? He was willing to entertain that and to have me help him work on that, maybe that was a possibility. Right. So the thing about Whitley is he wasn't out there selling a book. Whitley really did want to know. Yeah. What this was. Right. And it would not have involved me otherwise. And he involved me. I was still living overseas when this happened. Right? Right. So I'm still in Malaysia. Right? And he said, can you, you know, so I'm there. This is like 1990 something. So I started to work at that time trying to find out where this might have led. he wanted to know, is this a screen memory? Was I abused by Nazis? You know, was this something weird? I'm seeing aliens instead of Nazis. Because Barney Hill saw Nazis instead of aliens. Right. So is there some connection here? Because he recounted in one of the, I forget which book or which interview it would have been, but there was one moment he talks about where the female alien was taking advantage of him, for lack of a better term, and there was a CIA agent or officer in the room at the same time. Right. Weird intermingling of these two worlds. So what are these memories really? So if I'm CIA, right, I'm thinking to myself, this shit's cutting both ways. Yeah. What I can do is I can take some of these survivors, right, and maybe find out how they're being manipulated. Take apart the radio to see how it works. Yeah. Right. And maybe that's what this disclosure thing is all kind of a smoke screen for, for something that was even darker that was taking place. Right? Not just hiding technology from, I mean, I'm sure they have. We think of it as hiding nuts and bolts, recovered technology from another planet or something. Right. You could go there. I mean, I don't discount that. Right. It's a possibility. We see things on radar, right? We see, I mean, look at the, all the stuff that came out since the New York Times article, right? about the Eldridge out in... Was it the Eldridge? I'm confusing my conspiracies. No, the aircraft carrier out on the Pacific coast, right? The Tic Tacs. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Nimitz. The Nimitz. Yeah. The Eldridge was the ship that disappeared. I think it's Buffalo. That could have been like some DARPA stuff or something. Well, people were saying, right? Is it? Is it possible? You know, or what was all that about, right? So we're at the point where because of our own technology, we are approaching that point where we're going to be the UFOs. We already are with the drones, the drone sightings. Are they drones or are they UFOs? We don't know. It could be either one. Right. We're approaching the point where we could be responsible. We're not responsible for what happened in ancient times when they saw UFOs. Right. We're not responsible for what happened in the 40s even. Right. But we're responsible now. We're getting to be responsible. But the sightings continue regardless. So, is the human consciousness the nexus point? Is that what is where we have to take apart to understand what the phenomenon really is? Are they using us that way? Are they appear as a flying saucer today? They appear as a Nordic. They appear as a gray. Is this manipulation, deliberate manipulation on their part? Are we just coming up with these memories as ways to screen something else? These are all questions that have to be answered if we are at the point where we have no idea where they're coming from or what they intend. All we have to work with is the consciousness. All we have to work with are those memories. That's it. That's all we've got. Right. So we've got to work backwards from there, which means dealing with people in ways that are probably unkind and unsafe to their psyches. Right. Right. Wow. that is wild to think about. I don't even know. I'm going to have to process this. This is deep. Scary stuff, man. You wanted 30,000 people and I had to get deep. No, yeah. I've never heard that before. Yeah, and maybe inducing extreme psychological trauma, like you said, taking apart the radio would be the first step to trying to throw shit at the wall and figure out what's really going on there. Yeah. Well, you have successfully scared the shit out of me today. Oh, good. Mr. Lavenda, thank you. Mission accomplished. I can't thank you enough. This has been super fun. Tell people where they can find all your books. Obviously, I'll link everything below. But is there like any specific website or social media stuff? Well, I have a website. I had a website. but it's back up now, peterlavenda.com. And that has links to places where you can get the books, Amazon, of course, mostly. The new edition of Sinister Forces that's being put out by To the Stars, we redid it as the three volumes we made into one single volume, which has been this massive thing. But it's coming out. It should be out by the time you see this video, another couple of weeks anyway, from this date. It should be out with a new forward by myself, one by Tom. and we'll be talking more about Sinister Forces in the weeks and months to come in various places. We're going to be trying to talk about it, what went into it. We covered a little bit of what's in it, but there's a lot more. We covered the Manson family in great details. Oh, really? The Jonestown Massacre, we do that in great detail. Oh, wow. And a lot of that stuff, we really go into it. The Kennedy assassination, obviously, is interesting. So we do a lot of that in Sinister Forces. We try to show that things are connected that way. and how they're connected and what we should make of those connections. Should we be totally disappointed by it and disillusioned, or should we just think that there's a silver lining and all of that to look for? If the silver lining is people, we still have the ability to make these changes on an individual basis and on a collective basis to try to counteract the effects of whatever is going on these days with the Epstein files and with everything else that's happening. to throw up your hands and say we're screwed is not the option we would take right now. Right. Well, I think we should definitely do a part two down the road. Sounds good. If you're up to it, I think there's a lot more we can cover. But thanks again. I'll link everything below. Thank you. I appreciate it. Good night, everybody.