Trump's Venezuela Oil Gambit, ICE Shooting Fallout, and Warner Bros. Says No (Again)

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I'm a pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. Scott Galloway continues to be under the weather. So I brought in two more amazing co-hosts. We've got Audie Cornish, host of CNN This Morning and the podcast The Assignment. And Bill Cohen, one of my favorite people to talk about business because there's a lot going on there, author and founding partner of Puck. Welcome Audie and Bill. Hey. Great to be here. So I had nothing to do with Scott's disappearance. Not that I haven't wanted to be on the show a lot. Like I've been waiting with this quarter zip just so that I could be a part of the dialogue. A quarter zip. I did. I was like, are we talking business? Yeah. No. So I'm sure Scott's fine. I didn't do anything to him at all. No. Okay. All right. You were trying. Yes. That would be a really good show. Yeah. Audie trying to take down the co-host. Like a Nancy Carrigan situation. Yeah. Do you have your quarter zip on Bill? Yeah. I have my own discovery quarter zip, which I really like. I wore that just for you. I really like that. I got this from David Sasseloff himself. I technically did as well. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. He gives them out. He dresses, I'm going to say this honestly. He dresses, I told him he dressed like a lesbian and he said me this. Only lesbians can say that. I opt out. I unsubscribe. Unsubscribe. But yes, it's actually a fantastic vest. You look great in it. Thank you. It's really comfortable and I wear it all the time. My son this morning said, oh, that's the Scooby-Doo people. So I guess. That is of all the things. Of all the things. That's such a fresh. For now anyway. We're going to talk about. It's so random. It's so random. Yes, exactly. We're going to talk about that and I really enjoyed your stuff, Bill. But anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. So we're going to dig in. There's a lot of news. And the first one obviously is the fatal shooting of a 37-year-old woman in her car by an ice agent in Minneapolis as sparking these national outrage and protests again. The woman Renee Nicole Good was a US citizen, a mother of three and a poet. She was not under any kind of investigation according to law enforcement officials. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said Good was quote, stalking officers and attempting an act of domestic terrorism when a heinous person she is. A Minneapolis mayor Jacob Fry called that bullshit and told ICE to quote, get the fuck out of Minneapolis. President Trump weighed in on true social and once again blamed the radical left. He did an interview just where the reporters in the train showed it to him and he sort of walked it back. But he didn't precisely. And of course they're doubling down. Tom Homan for a second was reasonable and he got the memo that they're supposed to call this woman a radical terrorist. I want to get both your takes here, but first let me share Scott Galloway's thoughts on this which he texted me last night. I'm horrified. History shows politics becomes a blood sport and nations light begins to flicker. The dam, Newsom Whitmer Shapiro should announce candidacy this week and say if elected we are going to have the equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. There needs to be a reckoning to start the stain of corruption, insurrection and bigotry. Dems are such fucking whips. What's from Scott? The words of Scott Galloway ladies and gentlemen from his sick bed. Audie, I'll start with you. What do you make of what we're seeing? You reported on it all morning on your show on CNN, your morning show. So talk a little bit about and you've covered this kind of stuff many times. I have and I mean talk about grim. Like I think this woman had dropped her kid off at school like a six year old and so many people right now wherever they fall on the political spectrum feel a kind of helplessness like wait a second am I really where where I thought the country would be? And so if you're one of those people and you decide well I'm going to go out somewhere I'm going to do something I'm going to be present. And this time. To protest. Yeah, protest and I'm not saying she definitely was protesting but just the idea that you are in mortal danger now in these scenarios I think is pretty terrifying. Also the setting it being Minneapolis it being this many years after the death of George Floyd it being in a place where protests went for a very long time and in fact other protesters were killed like it can it can spin out into something else. And then lastly the fact that this whole operation you know almost 90% I think 87% of the Somalis in the state are naturalized citizens right they are legal. So now you are really trying to find one and two and three people and you have a city that is prepared you'll look on your TVs in the next day or two and see some protesters wearing their gas masks already because they have seen this movie before a kind of militarized response from law enforcement. So can I ask you one other question the response from the Trump administration immediately was trying to spin it of course Kristi Noem put on whatever hat she had that day and started to spew lies and then the videos all of them were very much different including Fox News commentators commenting on well she was turning away from the ice person. You know the huge she was trying to hit him. She's obviously dropped her kid off from school. I know very little known. I mean look if there's one thing we know how to do as Americans is scrutinize a video of a law enforcement involved killing. I think we had a fair amount of practice at that. We have not had practice doing that with a white mother you know of a couple kids and I think this has looked very shocking for people and familiar in ways that feel very sort of dark. The administration's whole stance on this entire process has been always double down always triple down never give any ground because they feel they have not just some kind of moral authority they'll evoke this mandate you hear over and over on these cable news panels this is what people voted for. I'll just wrap up by saying we don't matter what the TV news says or commentators people have eyes and they have social media and I have watched all of these ice enforcements and arrests and protests on social media where people offer their own commentary and I think that is having way more impact than the administration would like to think. They want to think it's a Democratic governor somewhere saying something that's rhetoric that make people say F ice. Check the hashtag you know it's not run certainly by any Democratic messaging operation. Right right. So I wonder is one of the things that I'm watching though is a lot of suddenly business people well-known people the guy who runs Jeopardy spoke up right and just I just was noticing Paul Graham who I think you know he was that of Y Combinator wrote ice just shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis a U.S. citizen how long before we say enough is enough. Elon Musk responded she tried to run people over and Paul wrote back and Paul I wouldn't call him a liberal by in fact he's somewhat irritating on many levels. No she didn't here's the evidence she's turning the wheel the front wheels of the car to the right away from the ice officer on her left she was trying to run him over why would she turn in the other direction. Do you think Bill because a lot of the you haven't heard you know word one from any tech people on any of this or any business people on this stuff. Yeah I think we may be reaching a tipping point on that to use a phrase that a lot of business people can understand I think this is obviously the inevitable outcome of the wider Stephen Miller agenda which is heinous in almost every respect and you know and you'll have to remember that Stephen Miller's grandparents were immigrants and if his policies were in place for them you know maybe they never would have come to this country he wouldn't even be here which might be a better thing I don't know. Grocking Stephen Miller will be a years a decades long thing for future historians. Absolutely I mean this guy is completely out of control witnessed the interview he gave to Jake Tapper the other day which was having to be about Venezuela but the same side the kind of arrogance and hubris applies here so I mean these situations are powder kegs you know bringing in highly militarized you know ice officers into neighborhoods and rounding up people who should never be rounded up you know so it seems so un-American to me I don't think this is what we voted for at all. But why have businesses remained largely silent because you know it didn't it doesn't affect that during George Floyd. Well I mean first of all it's that seems like a lifetime ago you know the reaction to George Floyd I mean people have whatever gotten with the program I remember having a dinner a few months ago with the CEO of a tech company Kara who you probably know well who I asked this exact thing why are you not speaking up more profoundly about what's going on here because it doesn't affect my business what affects my business is you know my shareholders my creditors my employees you know this doesn't affect what Donald Trump is doing what the regime is doing doesn't affect me it's not my business I'm gonna stay out of it even though it's totally reprehensible and that these people should be speaking up I mean why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it. Yep yep absolutely I mean it'll be interesting the last thing odd where do you imagine this going now with these videos will they continue to double down what is the because of course it takes away from their Venezuela capers which we'll get to in a second it takes away from their Greenland capers. I'll be honest it depends on what happens next I mean you'll notice my eyes are kind of going like this every few minutes is because right now there is this kind of images of what looks like a standoff and between protesters who are like linking arms and then you have this is the state of the country we're in right now I'm like are these National Guard are these police are these ice police like who am I even looking at and is this even how you do crowd control is this how you enforce things and I just want to add one more thing here the ramp up that we are witnessing of this law enforcement agency that is not structured the way the others are does not have it's unaccountable in such profound ways and I think that I will be very curious if people feel like they voted for that because when I hear the man a sphere and the podcast bros kind of be like I don't know man and I don't know if you should be I can't believe they're doing this I can't believe they're doing that to me that's now reached the stage where the average person does not perceive this as just a mass deportation of criminals I do think that horse has left the barn it's now do they think that what's being grown in their name that they as voters should step in and somehow try and stop it or make their displeasure known. That which they are have been doing I mean Gestapo wasn't what we voted for I guess that's can I just add one thing I mean I just think we're living through an era of unaccountability there's no accountability for ICE there's no accountability for Venezuela there's no accountability for ripping down the east wing of the White House there's no accountability for re describing what happened on January 6th in on the White House website I mean every day there's an example of bad behavior that would normally be unacceptable in my lifetime it would be completely unacceptable for our politicians to act this way and yet they do it with impunity and there's never any accountability. But there is a lever just no one's pulling it I mean here Scott talked like this all the time but the business community seems to have walked away from the awokening and a bunch of them that really went too far don't you think and so they don't give a shit like honestly I genuinely feel like they are going on yachts and building up fortresses for themselves and they no longer feel actually engaged with the country in a lot of ways and I don't say this is some like raving liberal I'm just like they are absent they don't yank funding from things they don't yet advertising from things they go to every dinner they have at the White House like I don't know what the business community does now. Well I think they do I think they do give a shit I think that they prefer not to be the nail that sticks up that gets this madman's attention and then puts them in the crosshairs and they have to deal with some you know analogous event that that they didn't want to have to deal with because they spoke up so I think they do care but Renee Good took a risk billionaires won't and I'm confused yeah all right well that's a good point that's why I say if you've got a few money why aren't you why use it yep yep I have to say I'm already on this one it's like they could this is not hard the none of this is particularly hard and it doesn't affect your midterms are coming up you can throw around all your free amendment money you know first amendment money then will they I'm not holding my breath well all right so and now to the latest with Venezuela here are some of the highlights of the story since our last episode President Trump will meet with oil industry executives on Friday at the White House after saying the US may subsidize the company's efforts to rebuild in Venezuela in other words the taxpayer will pay for it which he estimated would take 18 months probably just made that up on Wednesday President Trump said US control of Venezuela could last for years the president has withdrawn the US from 66 international organizations and treaties including climate groups the US sees two oil tankers including a russian flagged vessel linked to Venezuela in the north Atlantic the national security leaders have said the administration does not plan to use ground troops in Venezuela and of course in related news the US is actively discussing a potential offer to buy Greenland and hasn't ruled out military action I mean they're not just murdering US citizens they're very busy on other things so Bill start how do you suspect these oil executives we're responding in this meeting because it's a dicey situation for them no matter what and the price of oil of course is not as high as they'd like it to be right so how do you respond to this rampant imperialism if you're a CEO of an oil company that might or might not benefit from this imperialism I think that the economics of the situation do not necessarily lend itself to these companies wanting to go in there it's going to take billions of dollars to apparently fix up the refineries they also had lost previously right whatever that's sunk money different companies whatever the you know okay so you give them a heads up early that you're doing this because he loves to court their favor but I don't think this is nearly going to be nearly as smooth and as easy it never is first of all look what happened in Iraq and that was supposed to be over in 10 days right and good for oil companies similar words right similar words didn't work out that way and I don't see this working out that way either but besides care we are net exporters of oil now why do we need more oil from Venezuela I mean this is just this crazy hubristic ugly American behavior that I thought we would have learned from over the decades of doing similar things especially in Latin America and and I'm not I mean obviously if you're the CEO of one of these oil companies you get invited to the White House by a madman you know you go and you listen to what he has to say but I think as an economic matter it's going to take a long time before they you know raise their hands and say oh yes me too I want to get in here and you know extract this oil even if they get a freebie from taxpayers if he's able to do that at all right which is yeah we don't know the mechanisms about how this will work also Bill I was wondering in the era of this kind of Trump administration transact transactional foreign policy and transactional business policy everything's a transaction yeah so you can't do a no strings attached situation with the Trump administration even as an oil company I would think right like if they're gonna not like even NVIDIA has to give a slice so like why wouldn't you and our company starting to be wary about that totally I mean there's I mean he said he's going to you know seize the oil that has apparently been you know ours and locked up apparently and he's going to conceal it on the market and control the proceeds of that sale I mean he's got his fingers in all these pies it's this ultimate grift you know the Center for American Progress has got a website now that tracks the grift is nearly two billion dollars since January since he was inaugurated this is another part of the grift and and and I'm always very concerned about you know you have these big exogenous events you like going into Venezuela or what happened in Minneapolis what's what are they doing what are they trying to deflect from all right is it is it the rewriting of January 6th is it Jeffrey Epstein is it you know graft I mean taking down the east wing of the White House the 400 million dollar ballroom I mean what kind of crazy thing is he trying to distract us from it's wag the dog it's Orwellian and you know we're just again there's no accountability for any of this so if you're so if you're an oil executive going to that meeting what I have talked to two of them and they're like this is not good for us the price of oil you know they I mean economically it's kind of insane on some why are you going to invest billions of dollars trying to extract oil in Venezuela when we're already net exporters of oil I don't I don't understand easier in an easier situation I mean the potential there is huge right like they're sitting on the reserve it's just does this administration have the attention span is the country willing to do what it takes to secure a long-term investment I mean no one has the appetite for a very long list of things for the reasons you guys everyone has said which is like the ghost of Iraq and that whole conversation just haunt this foreign policy and Chile and so many others I mean why are we well I mean what what if the reverse situation were happening I mean honestly what if Venezuela came in kidnapped Trump and Melania took them off in Venezuela and then started saying okay now we own Exxon Chevron you know and all the Conoco and all the other oil companies and we're just going to extract all the oil because we we want to I mean right no I have to Kara I want to raise something with you and give your point of view which is that there's a lot of people who would say all the Trump people really do is overt versions of things that the US has always done covertly so the long list of Latin American regime change and interventions I'm just going to pick a date and go back to like 51 or something now the only difference is they just do it right and instead of us playing this like absurd game with Donald Rumsfeld about oil and whether it's the oil and whether it's not and then Jim Baker is like oh it's definitely I mean just nonsense now we just have people saying the thing they say it's a well yeah and like is there something to be said for a like you are addressing everything more directly and number two what is for Democrats what's their response what are you going to tell a Venezuelan expat like well we really want that dictator to stay because we don't like the way they're doing this as many people in Maduro is it is an autocrat and a very tyrannical one right it's not like I think his own people knifed him in the back that's my my take on the whole thing is is a delci who looks harmless but is not in any way she was head of the intelligence department at one point and she was head of the oil like that regime is still there they're violent they're repressive they're turning on each other if you're a Democrat do you just say but uh actually he needs to come to Congress appropriation something something when you have all these people in the country saying we needed the help maybe this maybe we want to thank Trump for doing they do they do I mean but that it's hardly point flow who he's not he's not the president of Venezuela so who cares he's it's not his job I think a lot of Venezuelans in Florida do like I think expats who have left right there are very different group of people and people I just did a long podcast with some an historian uh David Sanger and some others about this and one of the things that was interesting to me was that there's a real rift between the people who 25% of the population left and the people who are there and you know there's a whole again not our country yeah but we saw this with the Cuban community and the Cuban republican community right like Democrats lost that community for decades after and now the Secretary of State is basically the product of that political lineage right exactly which is why they're focusing on Cuba next and but one of the things is I think would you the Crime in Plain Sight is what you're asking about they're Crime in Plain Sight I do think there are one of the things the responses and they don't no one's ever done this I'm like hold hold my beer yes they did Panama yes they did Haiti yes we did Iraq Iran like Chile like yes we did and except what Donald Trump is doing is not saying oh it's a democracy thing oh it's because of this he's or it's because of political prisoners or it's because he's just saying yeah it's the oil and then you have Howard Nuttnick who seems to be in a bathroom piping up at the minerals like like that I don't think and I think actually the Trump administration has made when people point to his grift they go well he's doing it transparently I'm like so cramp crime in plain sight is better and it's on a scale that's unprecedented that's really the more interesting part of it but it's still it's still stupid like I don't know what else to say it's stupid as Bill pointed out because of the price of oil is going to come down crashing down presumably right I mean did he really think this through I mean you know the oil executives will go to this meeting but to get them to invest billions of dollars to refine or get that oil out of the ground and sell it into a market where the price of oil is low relatively speaking and we're already net exporters of oil why are they going to do that I mean did he think that through yeah and where you can't even get a guarantee from the government that they'll secure the workforce that would do this I mean there there's been there is no day two and why are we invading another country kidnapping their president so we can take their natural resources again if the shoe were on the other foot I think there might be a little bit of an outbreak that's sort of the old if Obama did this we're sort of way beyond if Obama did this kind of thing but in related news speaking of which speaking minerals and things we want there and and strategically indeed important place Greenland now from what I understand from this panel I did we can go to Greenland right now and put as many bases on it as we want we could put 300 bases we had 16 17 bases there we closed 16 of them so we have every right to be in Greenland from a 1950s treaty so we don't even have to 50 like we don't have to do anything we can just open all those things and like squat I guess squat in Greenland I think that's the way I think that's the technical term for it so what what happens but it has created this this NATO crisis existential crisis especially if he does something with the military rather than just offer to buy it thoughts first audio then bill oh no I want to hear bill first I'm gonna kill bill economically is is it a good is it a good deal look he he doesn't care as he's proven for years it doesn't care about NATO so if he's provoking a confrontation with NATO in a way to get out of NATO okay fine or maybe it's bluster and I mean do we need to buy Greenland as you said we can do already or allowed to do it we want it's just another example of this crazy wacky uh uh imperialistic behavior that is so unbecoming and you would think that we would have learned from our past mistakes in this area and it makes people hate us and resent us which is part of the reason we got a 9-11 situation is that hate and resentment around the world and he's fomenting it without any accountability uh and to what end I mean again if you if there's a treaty that says we can already put bases there and we haven't done it well why not just do that why are we provoking a confrontation with one of our best allies I think he wants to expand he wants to be the first year as president to expand territory since whoever it was that's that is to me the so he wants to do this his version of Louisiana purchase does he yes yeah well he wants his he wants his face on mount rushmore he wants his face on the coins he's he's building his 400 million dollar uh ballroom I mean this guy never gonna get built I'm just telling you really that's news my thoughts is that you know I think it's baffling for all of us because he tends to uh first of all his ideas of foreign policy are often frozen in particular uh vintage right it's like he really does just care a lot about tariffs he thinks that's the way to do it and so tariffs it is you know um resources and transactional uh I think google called it transactional predation of resources he sees himself as doing like what china is doing or something like that now of course it's very different it's very very different and it's often as you mentioned bill um undermining our allies and I think that it is very it's very difficult to watch in real time the post world war two world order and systems be not just chipped away but kind of kicked in the knee and maybe retirement yeah maybe like retirement it was always a myth you know like maybe it was never gonna last more than 50 to 80 years but we are witnessing the falling apart of something that doesn't mean that something else can't be rebuilt in its place but uh for sure I think that it might be baffling to the average person because you're like why are we suddenly talking about greenland and you can say that almost every week why are we talking about x why are you talking about let me just add in one of the greenland certainly is a strategic and there are minerals to be had whatever that kind of stuff under a lot of ice under a lot of ice by the way greenland isn't green and iceland isn't ice um I would like to point that out um anytime anytime um but to me the best economic thing to do from a business point of view is to help Ukraine because that is a country if it was renovated they have high technical expertise uh we would we would speaking of us benefiting economically that's our best economic bet that's like the one thing we won't do right it's like we're doing everything but we won't do which is shove the russians out and create a very vibrant technologically forward we would make a lot of bank there versus a greenland or a venezuel or anywhere else to me if that's your criteria is what's the best deal to me Ukraine is the best deal from if you're just going to be that venal of can I raise one more thing that's sort of baffling to me you have a generation of republicans in maga world whatever who were against the forever wars you have navy seals in congress now lawmakers they're there because they were against forever wars they were against our actions abroad and interventions and they hate the neocons and they're kicking dirt over dick janey's grave and I don't understand them right now I don't know if this is going to be like the fiscal hawks who just sort of like squirm away you know and don't say anything about what he's doing but when it comes to foreign policy the far right that is against interventionism has lost on every single argument like whether it's Iran whether it's whatever like he doesn't care what they think about that green talking there are people there are people green has been talking about it mass there's a resign but it's like leaving never gives zero f anyway like rand paul I mean it's sort of the same handful of people and I legit it's like lindsay gramm has gotten his wings again and all those people who allegedly didn't want intervention are oddly silent in these moments bill last question here is there any economic goodness to this of trying to buy greenland I mean again first of all you're a deal guy it's it's it's it's so unattractive the way he's going about it and doing what he's doing are there economic benefits there might be a cara how the hell are we gonna know I mean how do we know right now whether there might be economic benefits first of all what I mean is if a client came to you and said I want to buy greenland what would be the thing as an investment bank for you I want to buy greenland are you out of your fucking mind okay are we going to piss off one of our best allies to try to obtain this you know block of ice you know that may have strategic value and if it's like strategic defensive value we are as you said we already have the right to put bases up there why don't we close 16 of the 17 let's open them again or whatever it is if it's if it's if it's like controlling the Arctic and being having a policy matter and a national defense issue you know okay I get that I get that but what you want to mine so are you out of your fucking mind a mile of ice yeah that might work maybe you know with global warming of course that's not an issue anymore we're not we're not warming up anymore apparently so it's going to be like many millennium I don't think you've ever spoke to a client like that oh I that's the that's the way I would speak to them now one thing Bill I think there's so much foreign policy action that I think when you look at say the Abraham Accords for the Trump administration they feel like if you can get people doing business together that inherently creates the environment for peaceful interaction that the money is what is going to make those things work not arbitrary red lines in diplomatic conference rooms and I guess I just want your opinion maybe but it's so far it's just been a graft for the Trump administration and the Trump family it's all been about graft it hasn't been about opening up really well technically grift but graft too all right when we get that we're going to take a quick break we come back maybe I've coined a new term bills bills and my favorite topic Warner Brothers rebuffs paramount again no I use it all the time and I found incredible the amount of information about me out there a lot of it inaccurate but all of it compiled in a way that's really disturbing you don't have to take my word for it though last year the New York Times Wirecutter named delete me their top pick for data removal services take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for delete me now at a special discount to our listeners get 20 off your delete me plan when you go to join delete me dot com slash pivot and use the promo code pivot at checkout the only way to get 20 off is to go to join delete me dot com slash pivot and enter the code pivot at checkout that's join delete me dot com slash pivot code pivot this episode is brought to you by vanter security and compliance done wrong is a headache done right you build trust and grow faster that's vanter for startups vanter acts as your first security hire using ai to get you compliant fast for enterprises it's your ai powered hub for compliance risk and automating workflows from startups like cursor to enterprises like snowflake top companies choose vanter do security and compliance right get started today at vanter.com bowser is back everyone calm down the super mario brothers can take care of the kingdom let's go on april first toad pack our things the galaxy is waiting who is this special so some cool dinosaur just shows up and he's now part of the group cool the super mario galaxy movie only in cinemas april first i'm back with audi cornish and bill cohen water brothers discovery has rejected paramounts latest buyout offer urging its shareholders to stick with netflix water brothers said paramounts bid was not superior to the 72 billion dollar netflix offer for its studios and streaming businesses the board also flagged the uncertainty risk around paramounts offer saying it would effectively be a leveraged buyout the largest in history this comes after larry ellison stepped into personally backstop paramounts offer with a 40 billion dollar equity guarantee and just a little while ago paramount reaffirmed its 30 dollar a share all cash offer for water brothers no more bill um you've done a lot of reporting on this and let me just add in how versant also that versant is what i like to call it um like quesant uh factors and all of this comcast completed a spin off of versant this week which includes ms now cmbc and other networks versant shares closed down 13 on their first day and now down 29 for the week although that is index funds repurposing themselves according to many investors and i think that's correct all well paramount has been arguing that warner's cable channels stub are worth around a dollar a share um let's talk a little bit about this now audi works for cnn which is my disclaimer that's your bd is the parent company is the parent company um i am a contributor to them but i will be leaving if if paramount gets it so i don't and i don't give a fuck um so i'm gonna a lot of you may weigh in as you want uh i am no i'm literally here to learn on this front okay all right okay bill why don't you walk us through this and what happens next sure well the the key point that what just happened was this idea that the paramount offer uh at 30 dollars a share is deemed by the board of wbd not to be quote superior at this time okay because if they did deem it to be superior uh whatever that means that's a sort of a vague term which comes a lot of judgment comes into that uh uh if they did deem it to be superior they could break their merger agreement with netflix and turn their attention to the paramount deal they would own netflix a breakup fee of 2.8 billion dollars and then you know we'd have a the bidding war would begin again uh so they they did what you would expect them to do which was say why are we gonna you know we've we've got this merger agreement with netflix we're happy with it we we think it's worth more and there's no reason at this moment to to change that recommendation that doesn't mean that they if paramount were to raise its bid is it sort of indicated that it might do because it said it wasn't hadn't made its best and final offer but yet it hasn't done anything beyond 30 dollars yet that they wouldn't change that recommendation and open up the bidding war again they did note they would listen one of the board members noted that on cnbc like if they want to lob another number over we're happy to take it well there are in what is called revelon mode now of selling they have to sell the company to the highest bidder they are required you know by delaware law essentially to do that and that's why they're constantly reevaluating this these two bids and once again they've i mean there's no difference between uh this you know the december fourth bid final bid that paramount made of 30 dollars a share hasn't changed in a month so if they if they want to upset the apple card here they are going to have to raise their bid now they may not want to you also had noted these fees of that paramount wants more control over certain loans and the there's a lot of money there correct yes warner brothers is concerned about the way that paramount would let them operate their own company between signing and closing and since it's like an 18 month process generally to get this kind of a deal regulators approval both in the e you and here to get it closed they need to know that they can operate their business in the normal course and uh paramount put several covenants into their proposed merger agreement that would limit the flexibility that warner brothers has during that period and warner brothers believes that that would cost them which netflix has said no problem you said you know do what you want which is another reason that they're gone with the netflix deal netflix also said you and if you don't take our deal we're going to walk away which you know put a little gun to their head and so they you know they went with the burden the hand and at the time it was the better deal and make total sense and it still basically makes total sense it's a real toss up now because of the value of this global network stuff the in a part of the business where audi works cnn is potentially going to be spun off under the netflix deal and so the value of that business is a spun off entity comes into play under the paramount deal they're buying the whole company so that's a mood point so you know that's why you're knowing trying to judge the value of the two offers so it's what what it's valued at right and certain people saying three to five three three dollars a share now three dollars now the the chairman of warner brothers discovery board said on cnbc three to five dollars uh morgan stanley says you know a dollar fifty uh the the paramount people say a dollar forty so there's all debt issues around if they pull some more debt off it could go up if if if uh when they there's what 15 billion dollars in debt there's a moment at the moment they're talking about putting 15 billion dollars on the audience company and you know is that too much is that can you pay for that audi yeah that's why i'm wearing a quarter zip i couldn't afford the full zip but it's not a vest it's a full quarter zip if you really want to pay down that debt you may need to wear a vest exactly so i mean there are a lot of kind of subtle nuances going on here which which really puts paramount you know in a in a bad position to be honest uh if they really want to win they just have to spend more of larry's money larry's money he's got to get daddy nepo mogul has to get daddy to pay more you know when this started did i tell you not as smart as you think like and you said they have smart advisors i'm like they do i don't think they're listening to them i think no they aren't well because still dumb right and you can see that over at cbs very dumb what's happening there like what a way to run a network right into the wall like on a day on the daily essentially we won't get into it but they suck um is so so when is the when what happens next they have to just raise the price and then what does netflix do what is they don't have and then there's the whole trump thing see let me just add one more question there's the whole trump thing which they've touted their friendship with trump but as far as i'm concerned he's a little busy i don't think he's gonna win he's got limited time before the midterms the dragging this thing out is not good for paramount because the closer you get to the election and if the democrats take over they will not get it through either they don't they will lose that ability to control the process because trump will be essentially you know left naked without clothes right essentially with he won't be able to help his friend larry i'm sure right now he can't help his friend larry i think less and less every passing day but your thoughts well everybody's now quote unquote trump's friend and larry's his friend ted sarandos is his friend you know even though right he's played it beautifully i will say but he's a big democrat his wife was ambassador you know under obama i mean so and not sure that matters anymore no i mean everybody you know he wants fealty paid to him and if you've got a big deal that you want to get through you're going to pay that fealty because it's except i don't know if he has that power as much as everybody i don't think he will rush to larry's he loves to get involved in this carer yet he's busy with other things now he's busy greenland seems no i'm telling him he's he's our most healthy president ever is there's there's no time he there's no time i hope you're right time is running all right so so far i've been all of this so as i said it's got all time is what happens next title of your memoir yes yes i'm right uh look what happens next is that the their tender offer is open till january 21st and they're gonna between now and then go around their hostile tender offer that the paramount has made they're going to go around to the big shareholders and you know that it was only a small amount it was so far but that's understandable because there are a lot of conditions to this deal that are kind of like they the tender offer can't happen unless they have a merger agreement with war brothers well they're not going to get a merger agreement with Warner Brothers unless there's a superior offer so you know basically people aren't going to tender but they are going to go until maybe the last minute at at most at best but they are going to go around and make this case that they're $30 a share all cash deal is superior to netflix because of this business of the audience company not being worth this three to five dollars a share or whatever it's worth which is kind of technical and confusing to most people right this is the kind of thing that these guys get into the weeds about and so what is your what's the net they raising the price is the only thing to do right right raising the price to around 34 dollars a share is the only way for paramount to win this thing otherwise it's going to what about the Saudis what about the there's also it's larry's another 10 billion for larry and it's it's you know a dollar share is two and a half will they because it's already non-economic bill this thing is already so they decided that they have to have it they've made seven bids uh i suspect they're gonna do it i suspect they will raise their offer to 34 and they will win i hate to you know i think they will end up winning but i you know it could it could be wrong i mean there's no way without raising this bid that that Warner Brothers is going to change its recommendation not going to happen i i i don't know about that but i think if they do win they're not going to get it through that's too much the time is too short and by that time it will be the democrats calling for blood and then it will be well there's also a risk that netflix won't get their deal done either yes but less i mean that's fine but it's not the same thing right it's not like this i'm the best their whole argument has been i'm the best friend of well right it's a stupid argument well it's so transactional you know what has larry what have you done for me this week did you donate to my ballroom this week or not did you have you made but then ted could do the same thing a lot of this stuff larry can do ted can do comcast did it which was quite surprising uh but you know everybody is paying filthy now uh carol so audie any thoughts any thoughts i know that coming from npr uh and coming from like non-profit like oh what are we gonna do the politics will change that i was not fully prepared for like corporate media and it has been an education like for sure it's been an education i think one of the hundreds of thousands of reasons for me not to comment on this is kind of for the thing you guys are saying which is like we're in the realm of like personalities and regulation and the government and and so it's not the same as sitting around talking about a business deal or even a hostile takeover it's kind of something else and if you notice people not speaking up i mean a we can't right because we're in the middle of a regulatory issue but b to say it's above our pay grade is an understatement right that's a fair point yeah that's a fair point but by the way over at npr they've said fuck you government and they're doing great just fine i had breakfast with uh npr host this morning and he was like we don't even want to talk about it else but the thing is they've moved on and they're doing rather well undercast it was always like i said it was always haunting us there now it doesn't now they're like free it's like now you got to just compete in the marketplace but lucky for them they do fundamentally have a brand people trust yeah yeah i think the way to go is fuck you uh for a president to be sticking his fingers into an individual deal you know is not normal there are agencies that are supposed to be at arm's length that deal with these issues and that's the way it has worked but this president likes to get his fingers you know i have people often often let me let me end on this i have a lot of people like always go a couple years ago would be like can you believe he did this and i was like i do i believe it he's done it seven times before let me tell you he's he does it see greenland see venezuelan that's why carry he does have time for this he he makes time for this kind of crazy shit i don't think so all right well i think we i just i just this i think they have taken far too long for this they could have done the 34 you are right if they were smarter but we'll see we'll see and by the way and if they don't do it he is holding a very expensive leaky larry has bought himself an expensive leaky yacht that he is going to not know how to unload because that's there's no way right it's too small but without doing this it's only a six billion only only a six billion dollar equity bet for him so if he loses six billion but i'm saying he's just a he's just a no there that's why they're serious about trying to do it because they know that there is a habit they know that there are a strategic disadvantage with without it yeah and even with it still a hobbit anyway let's go on a quick break when we come back raw kids despicable new lows even for the ever despicable elan musk global innovation is accelerating but how are businesses staying in the fast lane awsa is how like formula one turning race action into real-time insights and the aii momentum doesn't stop there from energy companies using smart grids to prevent surges to educators personalizing lessons to move at every student speed across industries worldwide awsa i is how industry leaders stay ahead support for pivot comes from anthropic success doesn't come easy usually it's filled with unexpected twists and turns that can leave you scratching your head before you come out the other side but these detours are where the real magic lives those aha moments that can shape your journey beyond the question at hand and when you're in the midst of all that you should check out clod the system that is designed to work as hard as you do clod is the aii for minds that don't stop at good enough it's a collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move clod extends your thinking to tackle the problems of matter plus clod's research capabilities go deeper than basic web search it can have comprehensive reliable analysis with proper citations turning hours of research into minutes ready to tackle bigger problems get started with clod today at clod.ai slash pivot that's clod.ai slash pivot and check out clod pro which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode clod.ai slash pivot oh we're back with another headline elan musk ai chat about grok is facing criticism from governments around the world as it continues to create sexualized images of women and children grok imagine an ai image generator includes a spicy mode that can generate adult content meanwhile musk's x ai says it raised 20 billion dollars in funding around exceeding the target of 15 billion including from fidelity just that just today they're making filthy images of the woman who was killed in Minneapolis the european countries are are losing their minds you haven't heard word one from sundar pachai at google or tim kook at apple who would have should have been to see sam is supposed to be against the law so you too you're you're you're you're soiling yourselves in public by not doing anything about this that's my point of view but why this funding around suggest investors don't care about these issues i'd love each of you to weigh in bill you first on uh on what's happening here well as a great american once said uh kara x is a nazi porn bar and so that's me yes it was thank you and it certainly is it certainly is and this is just another example of it but look from a business point of view uh x ai and the merger between x ai and x saved x right it's saved uh fidelity's investment in x as well as larry ellison's and marquette reeson's and uh you know uh and other friends of elon's uh so i guess and the banks who are about sitting on 13 billion dollars of loans that they might lose a lot of money on uh so that merger uh saved the x deal which you know got to give i guess uh elon credit for devising and conceptualizing that and now he's raising 20 billion dollars at a what at 350 billion dollar valuation or whatever it is i mean uh you know i guess from a purely business point of view kara you have to admire uh elon's ability to uh make a chicken salad out of chicken shit and you've got to admire i guess the fact that suddenly he's now worth you know 700 billion dollars because of space x etc going public i mean so the guy knows how to make money for himself a trillion dollar pay package out of tesla uh his old pay package was reinstated by the courts i mean so all right on one level you have to kind of admire that if you're an american who believes in sort of darwinian capitalism on the other hand you know you expect elon muskin you know this better than anyone to to eliminate these images and go you know whole hog on trying to reduce the nazi porn bar aspect of what he's created here so why haven't this is c sam this is this is porn of children like i i think he would utterly allow porn of women i think he's he's a misogynist so that's sort of that's water under the bridge for him so to speak but with children this is something that usually sets off a firestorm a problem any reason why they're like fine with c sam i mean i mean again does elon musk uh like to do the right thing when it comes to these things or does he just like to claim it's free speech and you know whatever let it let it ride i mean you know he reinstated uh trump you know you know i don't i wouldn't lose sleep or hold my breath thinking that elon musk is going to do the right thing here but but you know he might do that one simple basic thing that is so obvious that has to be done meanwhile leaving the rest of the nazi porn bar to thrive so yeah adi thoughts uh i'm curious about the people who you know like the first lady or or ted Cruz who were so touting the take it down act you know which was supposed to um allow people a chance to take down non consensual images sexualized images and marcia blackburn marcia blackburn yeah again it's one of those moments where you're like do you do you actually care about this or do you not care about this the other thing i think about is there's this weird collision course between the very muddied aspect of ai and that culture which says onward no matter what and a pretty broad base not quite a moral panic yet but very much something brewing among parents and in school systems where they're like banned phones and we're australia we're saying kids can't even be on there we're in a collision course and sometimes it feels like the industry their plan is just to outrace us build all the data centers you can make this thing you're make your born bought quickly just do it all while trump is okay with it um and and then people can't really stop you yeah but i don't policy for everything by the way yeah and i amazon and taxes uh google and stealing but it's not 1995 nobody is looking at the industry and being like well they do have our interest at heart and they might cure cancer no one is saying that everybody is just like i want to throw my phone out the window i hate this i'm not on socials anymore i'm a teen in a luddite club like the backlash is real and i'm very curious about going forward if that turns into a political action so to speak is there a candidate who represents that i will speak to that i think the c-sam stuff is going to kill them they're gonna this is not this is not a this is where it stops and you've noticed that the google settled with the parents of character ai i don't know what the settlement is and i did interview uh that mother and i've interviewed i'm i'm i'm i've been interviewing a lot of these parents because it's a big issue since 2023 i've been doing it and but at a certain point it won't be settlements right it'll be you know what maybe we're gonna have this conversation with the public in public i'm not sure why yeah no i'm not this is a no way judging that's a decision of parents but i'm saying like this is how movements start i think the reason google settled is because they are not protected under section 230 on this one and their arguments were not ultimately if this stuff gets out it's very ugly for them and i wish one of the parents would just say you know what i'm going to just take you to court it's just expensive for them it's exhausting their child it's exhausting suicide but the same thing with these imagery that it does i think there there is a group of people that will not settle and they will try everything to settle because so much of this stuff is so heinous and also what you once you what what i had is one of the parents read the dialogue and when any parent hears it you're like put those people in jail and so to me they're headed for a perp walk is what i feel like if they're in this in this issue and it's well beyond what australia is doing but they're going to get a backlash like you've absolutely never seen right yeah so where does that affect at one point in elon musk you know what i mean like that's what i'm curious about it's like i don't think he is like you think it's because it just becomes the gutter like this is the red light district of the internet he runs it and and because a lot of you know if you've noticed the the internet is becoming less and less useful and yes people aren't using it the ai slop there it's really becoming less and less useful and so the promise was this would be more useful and a lot of ai absolutely is i just think there's no business in child porn there's no business from now until 200 years from now why aren't this should be an issue federal regulation right figure the regulators but you'll never get the trump administration to do the right thing they they prefer to do the wrong thing purposefully to you know own the lives so to speak but is it just the trump administration i mean care i feel like you and i have talked so many times about 230 and how lawmakers are just very reluctant to step on the toes of industry when this happened when i started interviewing these parents back in 2024 um i called 10 legislators i'm like can you please fucking listen to this and do something about it and they're like oh i hadn't like and i was like get on it like get the fuck on this like i can't do anything and i think you know and then unfortunately the people that get on it are are sort of have have um you know they they're trying to kill a fly with a with an anvil right like there's there's a way to do this this is illegal there are already laws in place about yeah but they don't really understand the technology frankly i would prosecute xa i that's i would just like time to probably if there was a very ambitious prosecutor out there i don't care if it's conservative or liberal you're gonna prosecute the 700 billion dollar man yes yes for for the trump administration no i would do a state i do one of this one of the big states you know just like in order to have people talking about it right because he's the one i would go for because he's the biggest in the most villainous he's the most villainous anyway we'll see what happens here but let me just say i'm gonna look it's mostly elon must fault because he doesn't give a fuck um obviously brought back andrew tate and others who are just heinous creatures um but ultimately sundar pachi and tim cook you're soiling yourself in public by letting this continue the you're supposed to say by letting you mean not speaking out not coming out with counter technology the app stores the app stores they took down took down a lot of that january 6 stuff pretty quickly when it looked when i did that one interview with the guy from whatever that site that was used for planning um they they've acted before in the app store but this is child porn and you own this both of you i'm sorry anyway uh they they're in a position to stop it like for at least speak out against it or temporarily stop it and get him to do something about it anyway uh one more quick break we'll be back for predictions okay audience bill uh let's hear some predictions i will go last you will go i shall go last who wants to go first bill okay i'll go i'll go first i i have two predictions carol one is that i i do think uh ai evaluations are going to return to earth in 2026 the latter half of 2026 uh not that ai isn't a valuable tool like the internet is a valuable tool but just like with internet 1.0 you know you slap you know dot com at the end of you know uh a company going public and it suddenly everybody falls over themselves to invest that's where we are now with ai it's ridiculous and uh it will come down to earth and a lot of people will lose a lot of money which is always i think uh justice to some extent not that ai won't be incredibly valuable tool as it already proves is proving to be and will become more so in the future and the second prediction is uh one of my favorites which is that hakeem jeffreys will be a year from now the speaker of the house if not sooner yeah more and more people are talking like that frankly yeah sooner the better as far as i'm concerned all right awdy i would say that uh this is maybe more a wish i i predict there will be a movement of human verified social media apps that someone is going to find a way to tap into the market of people who want to avoid ai uh slop and imagery and i was thinking of this when i saw adam is area of instagram do this big carousel little essay where he was basically saying like instagram as we know it is going to be pretty much dead under this scenario and here are the things you need to think about and the first thing i thought is there's going to be someone who makes an app that somehow is human verifiable and that people are really gonna want that yeah yeah or else get off i mean there's a trend among young people getting off completely because as you said if it's not useful yeah then you just you can't find your way to it in the day tick tock is useful for people right now because it's tv to them they are being entertained by this thing on a loop but if they're no longer entertained because what they're seeing is an algorithm owned by you know uh the government's friends or just ai slop and by slop i mean everything that is just generated for generating sake why if you're 14 15 why right interestingly the head of the head of rocu who's a really smart guy anthony wood um founder and ceo did say that he thought there was going to be an ai movie hit ai generated movie hit he's always talked about the back end and i think he's completely right when i interviewed the head of runway same thing there's a lot of back end efficiencies about to be imposed upon hollywood and that will be helpful for their business um but uh but make the movement moves into content it's a really different thing and one of the things the runway ceo suggested is that instead of labeling ai we label real yes because it's smaller very much so so this is like that's my prediction as well so you're telling me the wind is at my back this is when is that your back i know nothing about business but i'm ready all right i will i will do this i think time is running out for trump and i think he's he's much sicker than people realize oh this is a health prediction i thought this was a political health and everything he's not going to get all this stuff done like he's got there's too much stuff happening and not enough lackeys but i know it sounds crazy but even the lackeys are probably lacking at this point and so when when i saw that susie wiles interview i'm like the rats they're getting ready um i as i told scott i've i've meeting with front people a lot and they all are asking for pardons they're all like getting ready for normal which is right they're getting ready for those for them but that's different from saying there's no after because he plans to stay like i'm making a prediction that's different i'm gonna as scott says biology is undefeated um and nobody you know i'm not sure who's less charming don jr or jd vance but as i as i said about vance he's the cyber truck of politicians um but one of the um it's true it hits you exactly you're like of course yes correct um yes but that's why i talk about the ballroom i i think it is there's also some legal stuff happening to slow it down quite a everything that gets slowed down is a problem whether it's the paramount deal whether it's the ballroom and i think by the way fyi they do need a ballroom at the white house having covered it there's nowhere to there as always a bunch of tents when they have a bunch of tents and there's small rooms they really are people and the offices are small it's really quite fun to go there but at the same time you're like what a shitty office this is um and so there needs to be some renovation just the way it was done was of course awful but i don't think you're gonna get the huge ballroom i don't think he's gonna get what he wants and i think the gold leaf is gonna come down and that and they will have it they will have a decent better side to it and that's okay um but the big one isn't gonna happen i'm i'm sorry to say he's not gonna get his trump triumph triumphal arc arc either so is he gonna get his face on mount rushmore or on the coins i don't care do you care the coins might happen he can have the coins i don't care like at certain point you're like yeah give him a coin why not like and mount rushmore i don't care i don't care and neither none of us mentioned the 250 year anniversary i mean we're about to see uh i think propaganda is actually the the safest word to use definitionally here care i'll defer to you because that's your area of expertise um because it's going to be the country's birthday in his frame that's right just completely in the context of him which is well done stakes and well it's a u.s.c octagon it's whatever i mean just something it's going to grow that could be that's very sort of academic and a little sleepy and history nerd in another year is going to be something else yeah i just think i don't care go ahead go for it old man it's your last hurrah go for it i don't give i i'm not going to get mad about those things anyway so we'll see about that but it's time tick tock as they say anyway i really appreciate it but let me just read this we want to hear from you send us your questions about business if you don't agree with me or bill or audie or whatever's on your mind go to nymag.com slash pivot send a question for the show or comment or call 85551 pivot again that is the show thank you so much audie and bill came on at the last minute and i really appreciate it it was incredibly substantive and really helpful for people because right now the total order to meet you this way this is so cool thank you kara you had a great job together thank you you had a lot of nice for me or the two of you anyway we and the thing is the last show was uh bro camerling uh stefanie rule and don lemon and all they talked about was speaking of gay born uh heated rivalry so this was a little different oh my god all right well ask me back to this show i don't want to have to like harm scott every time i want to come back don't you worry absolutely both of you have been valued of contributors to a lot of my podcasts and i really appreciate it so please watch listen to and read all the amazing work they're doing at cnn and puck audie has the morning show bill has a must must read uh column that is so helpful to me in understanding these things um anyway thanks for listening to pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our youtube channel i'm just doing rather what do i have to say uh we'll be back next week and i will read us out today's show was produced by lara namon zoe marcus and taylor griffin ernie ander dot engineered this episode menolo morano edited this video nishat kourwa is vox media's executive producer of podcasts make sure to follow pivot on your favorite podcast platform thanks for listening to pivot from new york magazine and vox media you can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod will be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business scott come home