121. Kim Philby: Stalin’s Mole Inside MI6 (Ep 1)

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the declassified club at therestisclassified.com. It's a story about spying, yes, but also a war, a betrayal, really remarkable figure and has to be in our history. I think he's got a good claim to be the greatest traitor of the 20th century. This is a person who spends years in British intelligence, in MI6, heading towards the top while all the time working for Moscow. The matriot leaves a deep impression, he's in Munich on the eve of an election, and he actually attends a massive Nazi rally, at which Hitler speaks. In January, Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany, horrified by Hitler, and the rise of the Nazis, then the most dramatic thing happens. This episode is sponsored by HP, most people are not counterespionage experts, but that won't stop them getting targeted by cyber criminals seeking to extract their secrets. 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He never seemed to identify himself with his country, even over sport. Although Kim was a very English person, and much more at home and congenial English company than any other, he showed little affection for England or its countryside, cities, institutions, and traditions. He had some regard for the qualities of English people as a whole, but much contempt for middle-class virtues and middle-class likes and dislikes. Though he never lacked physical or moral courage, one could not imagine him making patriotic gestures. Perhaps there should have been a clue in all this to his real feelings, but England is full of people who appear to have little patriotism, yet would not dream of spying against their country. Well, welcome to the rest of this classified. I'm David McCloskey. And I'm Gordon Carrera. And those are my candid thoughts on England and its people. This will be the only time in this four-part series in which I events any sympathy whatsoever for Kim Philby. But no, that was Tim Miln, who is Kim Philby's oldest friend. I believe the nephew, Gordon, of A.A. Miln, the creator of Winnie the Pooh, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Bizarre. But that's right. But Tim Miln was Kim Philby's oldest friend from school, later a colleague in the British secret intelligence service. And today, we are starting a four-part series, really, I guess, looking at young Philby, Gordon, the first part of the life of this really remarkable figure, and has to be an average history. Yeah, I think he's got a good claim to be the greatest traitor of the 20th century, one of the most consequential spies of all time. I mean, he spends, this is a person who spends years in British intelligence, in MI6, heading towards the top, while all the time, every moment, all through those years working for Moscow. And he does untold damage to intelligence operations of not just the UK, but also the United States. And I think he inflicts kind of real deep trauma on both MI6 and CIA, that actually shapes both agencies for the entire Cold War. Well, selfishly, I guess I should also mention, I think he has shaped spy fiction as well. I mean, you have this, I think, real trope in the genre of more hunts, and you see this in all manner of spy thrillers, I think most notably in John the Carrays, wonderful novel, tinker, tailor, soldier spy, which, I mean, in effect, is based on Philby, and takes a lot of elements from the story that we're going to tell and applies them to the fictional world of the circus in the George Smiley universe that John the Carray created. So Philby has this sort of massive impact on actual intelligence operations, and then also in the way that we spy novelist render these intelligence operations in the pages of spy fiction. Yeah, that's right. I think feel like every kind of story of a mole and kind of nods to Philby, but then he's also even more than that. I mean, I think, you know, this, he has this kind of psychological trauma that he inflicts not just on MI6, but also the entire British establishment. And I think you can make the case that he's actually one of the most significant Britons of the 20th century. No, significant, not one of the best, you know, I'm not kind of comparing him to Churchill or that or whoever else that really is so clarified that. But what I mean is it's a story about spying, yes, but also in war and betrayal, but it's also about the kind of British obsessions with class, with the establishment, with the elite. All of that is in the Philby story. And I think for Brits, I find, I find the obsession with Philby fascinating, because I think there is an element of almost massacred massacrism in British culture, because, you know, lots of people exert a fascination for the public, but this individual Philby holds, you know, holds such a kind of, you know, a fascination for so many people. And yet he was a traitor, who betrayed them. So it is a kind of odd relationship, I think Britain has with Philby. And it is such a big story that we should say we're going to do it in two, you know, sections. We're going to do young Philby now kind of going through his rise up, I guess, to the pinnacle of his achievements. And the later on we'll come back and look at his equally dramatic downfall, I guess, in a proper sort of dose, Gordon of moral clarity. We should just say up front, this is, he's a bad guy, right? Like I want, I'm trying to corner you here because in our Snowden series that we did last year, you showed disturbingly kind of wishy, washy sentiment about the ethics of what Teddy Snowden had done. And I think it's fair to say you'll show no such sympathies here, is that right? Well, I don't want to enhance my reputation because some of your friends, I think, some of your former agency colleagues see me as some kind of pinko-comy, but, but, but, I do have some kind of, what's the word, not sympathy or residual respect for Philby, first of all, let me just say, I think he's a lot classier than the CIA traders. Your traders, they're like, Oh, Andrew James, he was the equivalent, he's just basically a guy who's trying to betray the CIA for some, for some better teeth than to buy a Jaguar car. I mean, that's all, that's what he, you know, Philby is much classier, you know, we have a classier kind of trader, that's, that's the first thing to say. I feel like we're having two different conversations here. You immediately, the comparison point was how classy, how, how classy of a trader is a, so we're just comparing it. We're not comparing him to all of the, the sort of loyal intelligence officers in either secret service. It's just a comparison among those who have betrayed the secret service. I would keep, I would give you that. I mean, we also looked last year at the case of Edward Lee Howard, who betrayed the CIA and defected to Bosch out. And you know, Edward Lee Howard was a way less classy guy than, than, than, than can fill me. Yeah, hard drinking. But, but not as classy as, as, yeah. But also, I also think there's another way of seeing the Philby story, because you could see it, David, as the story of a, a young man, an idealist with a strain of adventure, wants to fight fascism, falls in love, becomes a brave foreign correspondent and wants to change the world. Yes, he may then go on to be the country's greatest trader, inflict untold damage on both British intelligence agencies, betrayers, friends, his colleagues, his country, and lead to the death of many agents. But we all make mistakes when we're young, David. I mean, that's, you know, we all, you know, youthful indiscretion, surely. I mean, that's my approach to Philby. You know, he's a young guy, makes mistakes, gets trapped in them. I mean, who, who, who hasn't sold out their entire country and secret service for a dose of youthful idealism, Gordon? You bring up, you bring up some great, some great points. I mean, also, I, I will say listeners who I think have become a custom to Gordon Carrera, just viciously editing the early lives of characters that appear in the rest is classified and show a no interest whatsoever in the loves, passions, family lives, interior lives of those that we cover on this pod are going to be in for real surprise because Gordon, you have, I mean, you have essentially, you've essentially written a four part series on the early and, you know, sort of family life of Kim Philby. So I don't know, I don't know what kind of, we should say we're recording this before Christmas. Kind of Christmas miracle has, has occurred, but, but you have changed the way Gordon. Yeah, that's right. Because I think it is important. I think it is important, you know, this context actually his personal life is definitely I think the key to him as much as his ideological. Well, and I guess we should also say because we're going to start this with a conversation about Philby's really pretty monstrous father that Philby will be one in a long line of traders who have real daddy issues. So I do think, I do think there is real merit to starting the story with the, the sort of upbringing and family life of Kim Philby. And we should say, just before we get in, I think for those listeners who might say, oh, man, you're starting a story in 1885 on the rest of classified. What has gotten into you too? I will say that because there is such a tremendous amount of scholarship on Kim Philby, and to your point, Gordon, because he really casts such a long shadow over so, frankly, over, as you know, both secret services, the CIA and SIS and both sides of the Atlantic, there's been a tremendous amount of work done on Philby. And I think what we have here is probably the, maybe one of the fullest psychological portraits you'll get of somebody who ends up making a decision to lead a double life for much of his adult life. And I think that's not something many of us understand fully. And we're going to get kind of a character study in how a trader sort of becomes a trader to their, to their crown and country, Gordon. But let's start, shall we, with the father who is quite a character himself. That's right. It's really in a kind of amazing character study. And we're going to be looking at it over these four episodes, a reminder, if you're a club member, you can get them all straight away and binge. And we're also going to delve a bit more into the Cambridge spies with an author on them, Antonio Senior. And we're going to have some amazing material in being able to hear from Philby himself talking about this early life. But yes, let's get to the father, Harold St. John, but pronounced Sinjin, which is the way you do it. I'm afraid lots of strange British pronunciations coming up. When I read this, you actually had very helpfully phonetically given me some hints. This is, that can't be right though, right? You don't say St. John. It looks like St. John. Yeah, it's the way they do it. So, Sinjin, born 1885, goes to, and this will become relevant, Westminster School and Cambridge University, no money in the family. So not posh, not aristocratic, not rich. Very good at languages. Pass exams goes to the Indian Civil Service and Headset India 1908. Mary Dora, whose father also works in India in 1910. Now, he's very young, still in his 20s, but lots of responsibility, you know, Britain running India at the time. Early reports already get a sign that he's interesting. They say that the father mixes a bit too much with the native element, much more than some of the other Brits. No hint of racism from him, and he kind of advocates for Indian colleagues. So he's an independent-minded character and a bit of a rule breaker. 1912 Harold Adrian Russell Philby is born. He is born this child in a bungalow, in Ambala, in the Punjab, in India. His first language of this child is Hindi, the local language which he talks to servants and so the boy is nicknamed Kim Philby. And that's after a character in Rudyard Kipling's novel Kim. And the character in that novel is an orphaned child of a British soldier who grows up with locals in India and speaks many languages. And then this boy is, because he can kind of blend into different situations, the fictional Kim is recruited by British intelligence into the great game in Central Asia, the great game being the kind of battle between British and Russian intelligence and nations in Central Asia, Afghanistan in the late 19th century. So this kind of weird thing that Kim Philby is called Kim, because he's named after a kind of fictional spy when he's a child, which is a kind of weird bit of normative determinism, I guess. As well, well, one starts, Kim, young Kim is sent back to England to be under the care of his grandmother. And the father, back to the father, goes to the Middle East because the British military want to make use of his expertise in language. He goes around what's now Iran in Iraq with British troops protecting British oil fields. But the Brits are also trying to use Arab tribes to target the Ottoman Empire in what's now Turkey because it's allied with Germany on the other side of the war. Now famously, this is what Lawrence of Arabia, T.E. Lawrence is up to it. I'm sure you've seen the kind of brilliant David Lienfilm about that. Kim Philby's father is also going to be involved in that game because it begins Philby seniors love affair with the Middle East. And so in 1917, key moment in his life, he sent as head of mission to meet a tribal leader called Ibn Saoud in Central Arabia, who is a tribal leader of ideas to this more puritanical branch of Islam called the harbism. And Ibn Saoud will later, later down the line, become king of a country named after him Saudi Arabia. I mean, so already here, Kim Philby's dad is connected with the kind of founding of Saudi Arabia, which already is kind of explains why he's a kind of unusual character. I guess it provides the experience with Al-Saud in what becomes Saudi Arabia. I think it creates maybe some distance between the father and the British Empire, doesn't it? Because he's also frustrated with the way the region is sort of carved up after the First World War. Yeah, that's right. Because at the end of the first war, the, you know, basically the Brits and the French shockingly betray the Arabs who they've encouraged to rise up, giving them the hope of independence and don't give them that immediately, leading to much frustration and a bit like Lawrence of Arabia, Harold Singeon Philby also becomes a kind of advocate for the Arab cause in this period. And interestingly enough, Ibn Saoud said the late, and his son Faisal, so both future kings of Saudi Arabia come to Britain at one point and are looked after by Kim Philby's dad there's a crazy story in the father's biography where the government failed to book a hotel for them. So he initially puts up these two future kings in Upper Norwood, which no offense to any of our listeners in Upper Norwood, but he's not the most glamorous part of South London. I don't know if you've ever been there, David, it's not. But you know, he didn't take the, were anti-Upper Norwood. No, I love Upper Norwood, but it's just not where you'd normally kind of, you know, take people because he then takes them to see like, you know, the king go to self-ridges and visit young Kim, who at this point is it is kind of prep school is his preparatory school in Surrey. And Kim, already at this point, young Kim, he hasn't seen his parents through the whole of the First World War. And he later says, when they come back at the end of the World War, they're total strangers to him. He hasn't seen them for four years. Who is this quiet boy, not many friends, bookish, his father does take him to see the cricket in 1919, Surrey cricket team, which is played, I think the game then at the oval, which is just minutes walk, David, from goal hanger HQ and cricket is going to become a theme in the Kim Philby story, which I'm sure you're very pleased that. I have done zero research on cricket in preparation for this on purpose because I am, this is my, this is going to be my cricket school. You will finally, through the life and times of Kim Philby, you will finally teach me how this ridiculous game has played. Yeah, you're going to learn a lot. Thanks to Kim's love of cricket. It's baseball, right? It's sort of baseball with the different, with a different kind of stick. That's where I'm starting. But because cricket can go on for like five days and end in a draw, which is, you know, anyway, that's, we'll come to cricket. Let's not get too diverted. So Kim Philby's father, he comes back, back and forth, but he's, you know, the dad spends most of the 1920s living in the Middle East. I mean, most of the rest of his life really living in the Middle East, sometimes we're then sometimes without Kim's mother, he quits his government job and becomes an explorer in the 20s. So he's going to travel by camel across the empty quarter of the Arabian peninsula, which had never been properly explored before. I've never been across that. I don't know if you have David in your time, but no, but essentially it's a massive, just absolutely barren uninhabited for the most part desert across vast swaths of Saudi Arabia is what the empty quarter is. And his father is going to kind of cross it, you know, starts to wear Arab dress risking his life. As I said, a kind of advocate for the Arab cause, which makes him critical of the British government, who he kind of rubs up the wrong way. And he's going to become a semi celebrity in his own right, which in some ways, you know, he's not thrown out of the British establishment because he's famous and he's an explorer, but he's seen as a bit of a kind of roguish character and he's dreaming of becoming rich, successful, also of the government listening to his advice on the Arab world, because he sees himself as the expert. So he's got this, I think he's got this sense of destiny for himself, which will then extend to his son. So the relationship between the father and son is fascinated because young Kim also develops this really bad stammer. He really struggles to get his words out. And some, a lot of people say it's the absence of his parents or the shadow of this flamboyant father, which, which causes that. Now of course, it's quite hard to diagnose. It reminds me a little bit of, I mean, Edward Lee Howard had the father who was borderline, I mean, I mean, maybe not even borderline, but abusive on occasion and had, you know, issues with like bed wedding and things like that. So I wonder if, you know, talking about the stammer, it seems there's sort of the similar, I guess, feature of this father that in some ways is absentee and in other ways is very domineering. Kim Philby himself was saying, well, my dad, you know, didn't influence anything I did because he was thousands of miles away. But actually, you can sense this slight, whether there's a bit of inferiority against this adventurous, big father, but also the father gives him a sense of rebelliousness, of kind of non-conformism. I mean, Kim Philby will later say one of the things his father impressed on him was that if you feel strongly, strongly enough about anything, you've got to have the guts to go ahead and do it. And you know, as we'll see, that's something that which the son does and which the father does. So there's definitely an influence there. I mean, that quote we read up front was indicative that he's this kind of, even as a child. And maybe even his father lived this out kind of a de facto place, you know, in a way. He's English, but not quite and sort of looks at it. Yeah. Looks at the whole system with a kind of private scorn. Yeah, in it, but not of it, I think. Yeah. There's a bit of one up and one ship perhaps with his father as well. But, you know, another thing I think the father is definitely trying to make the son into a more successful version of himself or at least have him following his footsteps. Because in 1924, young Kim Philby goes to Westminster School as a border just as his father had done. Though he's following in his father's footsteps and he's going to push his son on the same path, kind of molding him in some ways. Our producer Becky has noted Westminster School, Gordon, Alba Mutter of Louis Thoreau, Nick Clegg, Helena Bonham Carter and Andrew Lloyd Webber. So a distinguished cast of characters amongst others. Where does Westminster fit in sort of the landscape of Posh, you know, I think in the states we would call them private schools, but confusingly on your fair island, you call them public schools. Is that right? Yeah. And Westminster, which is, it's right as the name suggests in Westminster in the middle of London, attached to kind of next to Westminster Abbey. It's not, particularly at this time, in the kind of 20s, not as sport-y or as Posh as kind of eaten or harrow, not quite like them. And there's a bit more space, I guess, for eccentricity and individuality than some of the others. I love the fact that when he, when he eventually, I don't want to give too much away, but when he eventually flees, Kim Philby, he leaves his wife behind, but he takes with him his Westminster scarf, which suggests a kind of bizarre attachment to his school. But the best insight, I think, from the early Kim comes from Tim Milne, who we read, you read from at the top. Milne was this school friend of Philby. He wrote a memoir about called Kim Philby, which actually was blocked by MI6 from being published for many, many years. And was only released actually in the last, I think, five, ten years. You can now get hold of, because it's such a fascinating insight into not just Kim Philby, but also into MI6 operations. And there's a quote from Milne, Westminster at this time, and particularly his college, were not very typical of public school life, and Kim himself was highly untypical even of Westminster. So Kim, you get, you know, he, Milne describes kind of Philby as, you know, a bit of a loner, he's got the barriers up, something untouchable about him, but also a kind of inner strength and self-reliance that made others, you know, respect him. So I think, yeah, you get a bit of a sense of an early character who's quite unusual already then. Milne has this, has this story from his book where he and Kim go to a soccer match. You've written football game. A football game. They go to the trailer. Chelsea against, Chelsea against Clapton Orient, although for any football fans out there, Kim Philby is an Arsenal supporter. What is the profile of an Arsenal supporter? Well, I think our current prime minister, Keir Starmer is an Arsenal supporter. I know it's North London, North London, but it's, so I don't, I'm not going to profile Arsenal supporters because there's been a lot of people on the podcast. Yeah, there's another Arsenal. Mid-Laden Kim Philby, so we're into the theme here. Keir Starmer should maybe switch clubs. This is a bad, this is a bad set of bad choice. It's a bad company to, to choose. That's right. And now here comes the first cricket, cricket reference. So good. So Tim Milne and Kim Philby play cricket. And there are various cricket positions. And Milne notes, Kim Philby used to field on the offside. I wish I could report that his regular position there was third man, but I think he was more usually to be found at deep extra cover. It's self appropriate in its own way. So I should explain, Kim Philby later becomes known as the third man in the spiring. But and third man is a position in cricket, David, the fielding. And I'll just let you notice you will find the third man position behind the wicket keeper on the offside. The fielder is usually 45 degrees to the wicket around on the boundary. It covers a large area, anything that goes through the slip and gully area. Got it? Yeah. Is the offside also Starboard? Is that the same? And it's different from offside and football as well, which we should soccer. So that was a bad place to start. I'll say that was I think we were into deep. Got it. Essentially, you're hitting it with like you have this swatting thing, right? Looks like a spanking stick. And that's what they hit the little, that's what they, the red ball, the, the little red ball, the, the core. Yeah. They hit the quaffle. Let's maybe, let's maybe do a separate, I think we might have to do a separate episode in which we, in which we, we, we explain cricket to you. I might get the sport to the rest of the sports people to do that. What is the point of crickety point of any sport and he sports like enjoy yourself try to try to know that like the spirit of a spiritual point. I mean, are you hitting what are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to you're trying to get more runs than the other team runs when you run back and forth? Oh, do you think there's a there's a lot of space for my mom's in baseball you want to run to yeah. Yeah. I think maybe we should possibly take a break there before we get too deep into cricket because having dealt with Westminster having dealt with cricket next will come to Cambridge, which is where the action really starts. Hi, this is Hannah and Michael from Gohango's The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by cancer research UK. Radio therapy is over a century old, but it is still changing. Cancer Research UK helped lay the foundations of radio therapy in the early 20th century and has driven progress ever since. Radio therapy remains one of the cornerstones of cancer treatment today. Every year millions of people worldwide benefit from cancer research UK's work to make it more precise. Scientists are still refining how radio therapy is delivered. And one example is an experimental treatment called flash radio therapy, which delivers radiation in fractions of a second up to a thousand times faster than standard radio therapy. And early studies suggest that speed could make a real difference. Flash radio therapy may cause up to 50% less damage to healthy cells. But scientists don't yet know why healthy cells seem to be spared. So cancer research UK are working to answer that. Understanding it could be key to reducing side effects in the future. For more information about cancer research UK, their research and breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit cancerresearchuk.org forward slash the rest is science. This episode is brought to you by Adio, the CRM for the AI era. Now David, people think that spy craft is just car chases and secret codes, but not a lot of it is just idling around waiting for the action. It's a bit like starting your own business. You think it's going to be as easy as creating and selling a product, but the reality is business owners spend far too long trying to get their CRM to fit a system, not built for them. Atio's AI driven CRM enables you to take control of your platform to build something from the ground up that fits your needs. James Bond had cues X-ray shades and explosive watch and a pen grenade. Business owners have adios real time customer insights and platform that grows with them. All tools relevant for your mission to build a company from the ground up. Atio even has something called agent collaboration. Yes, but in this case, that means giving people the ability to let AI work seamlessly in the background for them. Try atio for free at atti.com slash trick. Well, welcome back. It is the autumn slash fall of 1929. And we are at Cambridge, Gordon, a wonderful institution that unlike Oxford, has produced some of the greatest traders of the 20th century. Yeah, quite right. Autumn fall 1929, Kim arrives at Trinity College, one of Cambridge's richest and largest there to study history, later switches to economics. First year seems a bit lonely. The stammer doesn't help much with socializing. He's not sporty, particularly a bit into cricket, but not massively. Doesn't drink much at this point. We'll come back to the drinking later. So he's in the elite, if you like, but he doesn't quite fit. He's not one of the kind of posh boys from the really, you know, kind of aristocratic families. You get this sense, he's got a bit of a thing for the underdog or the outsider. One of his first friends is a kind of working class minor, who's come on a special scholarship. But the crucial thing is the context into which he arrives, because Philby arrives at university at this time of a really intense domestic and international term, or where everyone is thinking and talking about politics. So he arrives in 1929, which of course, year of the Wall Street crash, depression starts, unemployment on the rise in Britain, as well as in the US and around the world. And that sense that kind of capitalism, the capitalist system seems to be failing. And then politically, hang on, hang on for a while longer, though. Unfortunately, well, that's what he thinks. It looks like at that moment, you could see that. And also you have a labor government in the UK, but it's struggling and in 1931, and its leader sells out and joins with the conservatives. So labor is going to get crushed. So the hopes that also a kind of left wing democratic government can bring about change also seems to be undermined. And the conservative elite doesn't look like it can kind of cope with this crisis. Meanwhile, you have got the communist five year plans in the Soviet Union. Look at that point, like they're doing okay. People haven't seen the bad side. And then I think the crucial bit, though, and this is where we come to my kind of, you know, one of the reasons why I have a touch of sympathy, touch of sympathy with Kim is because it again, it's the context he can see these darker populist forces on the rise across Europe with the arrival of fascism. And I think that is crucial to understanding why he does what he does. He's very well traveled throughout Europe in the 1930s. I mean, I guess with his buddy Tim Milne alone, he makes three trips between August of 1930 and the spring of 1933 goes to France, he goes to Austria, Hungary, Germany, Belgium, back to France. I mean, he's getting an experience that perhaps not many of his Cambridge classmates are getting in the same time period, kind of seeing what's going on around the continent. As you do have this kind of rise of fascism and, you know, populist movements around Europe. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think he's going to see the arrival of kind of fascism, you know, populism, the darkening clouds over Europe up close in 1932. He plans to go to the Balkans, but then first goes to Germany. And that trip leaves a deep impression. He's in Munich on the eve of the of an election. And he actually attends a massive Nazi torchlight rally at which Hitler speaks, you know, Milne writes, what impressed and alarmed us was the totally uncritical attitude of so many perfectly ordinary German men and women. A day or two later, we sat in a workers cafe listening to the ominous election results on the radio, Nazi gains everywhere. We felt we'd seen into the future. It's an interesting quote, isn't it? They feel like they're there seeing the rise of fascism in Europe. Well, I guess, you know, in 33 then in January, Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany. And you know, Kim, I mean, he seems, you know, obviously he's he's horrified by by Hitler and the rise of the Nazis. But he's also, I mean, I guess deeply interested in kind of understanding it and observing it, isn't it? Because going to Berlin, I think in March of 1933 sees this huge torchlight street parade and celebration of the reopening of the Reichstag. He watches it from from balcony. So he's kind of seeing, he's seeing fascism up close, which I think is going to send him down the opposite path. Yeah. And I think that is one of the ways of seeing his choice is that it is he sees that that's a choice between fascism on the one hand and communism on the other. Because I think he sees that the kind of a democratic socialist route to oppose fascism isn't going to work. And so he's fundamentally in some ways, I think, an anti-fascist as much as a communist. Reminds me a little bit of the story of Klaus Fuchs get another, get another British trader who was dispatched kind of to America after incompetence on the part of your secret services and then poison ours. But that's that's neither here nor there. But Klaus Fuchs had seen similar, he had grown up in Germany, had seen these dynamics playing out of the 1920s and 1930s. And in many ways, you know, Klaus Fuchs's work with the KGB was driven by his anti-fascist exactly as you're saying, you know, sort of killbys, Philbys experiencing here in the 1930s as well. Yeah. I think that's right. So I think these trips to Europe are pretty formative for him. Being enough in one of his trips, Milne remembers that while he's in Germany, Kim gets a letter from home saying that his father's engine had turned Muslim as Milne writes, which I think means converted to Islam, which is, you know, which is part, you know, just to keep the father's story going in the background in 1930s, he's going to kind of convert and Ibn Saud is going to organize his, you know, the father to visit Mecca. He actually converts to Islam. Yeah, he actually converts, well, there is this suggestion that he actually partly converts because he's trying to get business deals and he thinks it will be easier to get the business deals if he's converted. So yeah, I mean, so that, you know, the father is still on his journey, I think it's fair to say. But Philbys, you know, he's done these European trips and it's only when he's at Cambridge in this 1929 to 1933 period, he does join the socialist society, which a lot of people have members of, you know, it's the kind of just the left wing society, but it's only right at the end of his time at university in 1933 that he converts from, if you like, socialism, democratic socialism to full on Marxist communism. And he definitely, it's really interesting because he comes under the influence of some left wing academics. So it's just a classic story of going to college, Gordon and Vian Radical, by your professors, right? I mean, who hasn't been there, right? An economic lecture is called Maurice Dobb, who is a socialist term communist. And it's really interesting. You get this one figure, you know, Dobb, who brings in left wing speakers into the university, he runs small discussion groups with the students and he basically clearly sees it as his mission to effectively evangelize this young generation of students and draw them towards communism. I mean, that's what he's doing. This is beg the question of how the British security services are looking at this dynamic because I would imagine most of the focuses on Nazi Germany and whether the Nazis have, you know, agents in place of the UK, but there has to be some interest in, you know, sort of, I don't know if it's an academia or more broadly throughout, you know, sort of the society, but there's going to be some interest in this kind of potential for communist influence as well. I mean, is that going on at this point? Is MI5 looking at this? So MI5 and Special Branch have, they're not very big at this time and it looks like most of their interest is in potential communist infiltration of things like the army or things like that, something like the university, they're less focused on, but they are, there's some signs they're aware of some activity around Dobb and they've got a little bit of an interest in it, but definitely not much because Dobb is basically acting as a kind of recruiter. I mean, we think of, you know, the tap on the shoulder famously by, you know, tutors to join MI6, but Dobb is doing the kind of tap on the shoulders are recruited to become communist. So it's just in that last summer of 1933 when he's leaving Cambridge that Philby says later, you know, there's one evening he's sitting alone in his room in his armchair and he just makes this kind of intellectual decision that he is a Marxist, that he's a communist. He was in, he'd never be out and I think it is, it is a kind of intellectual conversion to, you know, by him. It's not just a kind of emotional thing. He thinks, I believe this, you know, I believe this interpretation of history and view of the direction of history to be true. And he really is a true believer, isn't he? The decision is informed and influenced by the family upbringing, the class system friends around him, you know, university professors, but at the end of the day, he is a deeply ideological recruit or will become a recruit. He's a deeply ideological person. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. In June of 1933, he's finished Cambridge and he goes, I guess, back to the kind that's straight to Vienna. I guess he wants to be kind of in the thick of it, I guess you could say. Yeah, it's really interesting that his first thought was I want to do something and he wants to go back to Austria. Austria at that point is really interesting because there's a huge amount of tension in Vienna, specifically the Austrian capital between city, which is pretty left wing and has kind of big workers movement and the government and the rest of the country, which is pretty right wing. And so the tension is growing at that time. There's private militias and armies on both sides. And Philby I think feels like this is where the action is. This is where things are happening. So he turns to Maurice Dob, this professor who's pleased that he's converted. Dob says, you know, I've been watching you and he says, I've got some contacts for you out in Austria. I want you in touch with some groups which do help left wing groups. And he puts him in touch with one in Paris, which puts him in touch with another one in Vienna. Interesting enough, he tells his parents he's going out to Austria to learn German so he can get into the foreign office, which is what his dad wants for him. But that is not what, you know, he wants to go out there. He wants to cover. He needs some cover with his parents. He's really getting cover. Yeah. But what I think is so interesting is he's not, he's intellectually converted to communism. But he also wants to do stuff. He's not a kind of someone who wants to sit and write essays. He actually wants to get in the thick of it by going to Austria again. You have to have some respect for this David. But Phil be arrives and he's looking for some Wednesday, giving the address of that. You're a sympathy Gordon might be evidence of the societal massacism that you were discussing earlier with just this constant sort of need to kind of relive this trauma. The pain of betrayal by then and the way you're living it out is with, you know, sort of flashing some leg of sympathy for Kim Phil throughout our series. Well, let's see. Let's see. I still got it. I've still got the sympathy at this point because he arrives and what what happens now is a kind of keep up the story because he's a young man. What happens? He falls in love. And this is David, a love story. This story of Kim Phil. You might think it's a story of betrayal and class, but no, it is, it is a love story because he meets Litzie, the daughter of the family he's staying with. She is 23, so she's two years older than him already divorced, dark brown hair, blue eyes, full on communist, also new how to enjoy life, sexually liberated and into that Soviet intelligence. Well, put it this way within, within 10 days, they're having an affair. And the suggestion is this is Kim Philby's first sexual experience to mill and others. I think he's not had a girlfriend, didn't have one at Cambridge or anything else. And I do like this, this is Philby's own recollection is the first time they make love is in the snow, which was actually quite warm. Once you got used to it, he later recalled. I mean, I can't believe that I am listening to this is so, this is very uncorrerent of you, Gordon, to be leaving these kind of personal details into a character study on the rest of the class. But he's calling because who makes love in the snow? I mean, well, maybe, I mean, I don't know, maybe write it. I'm just as if that. Yeah, right in. Right in. Yes. Well, I believe that I'm not like I'm going to show you. I believe the fifth on this one, Gordon. I plead the fifth. I refuse. Sure. He's infatuated with turrets. Yeah, I think that's right. And I love this. On their first meeting, she says, how much money do you have? And he says, he's got a good question. You start right there. That's a good first question. Well, it's a communist question, isn't it? If you're going to be a revolutionary, it's like, what money do you bring to the cause? And he says, well, I've got 100 pounds, which has been given to him by his dad, which I think it's like money from one of his, you know, his dad's got some money from a bookie sold. And she basically works at how much he can live on and says, right, I'm taking a quarter of that money. And I'm going to give it to the cause of the revolution. You can keep the rest to live on. And you know, that's it. So they fall for each other, they move into a flat together. The crucial thing, he's got a British passport, which gives him the chance to move around the city in the way she and other communists can't because the British passport, I think, really opened doors at that time. I did. I did. I don't know what's gotten into me, Gordon. I'm just, I think it's the subject. No, I don't know. I think it's the subject of this yet another trader that you sort of, you know, sort of fed into the bloodstream of American intelligence that's got all bribed up against antibodies are up. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But let's see. Is she in touch with, so obviously she is a full on raging communist, but is she in touch with Soviet intelligence officers at this time or is that so? Yeah, it, it looks like, so she's part of a kind of circle of activists, you know, who are also some of them are Soviet agents. So she's moving in those kind of circles basically. And and that draws Kim Philby into it at this point, at this point, he's still basically a kind of career. He's moving money and people around. Then the most dramatic thing happens on February 12th, 1934, all the lights go out in their apartment and the whole block. Vienna erupts in violence because the government is cracking down on the workers. It's sending in the troops. Basically, there's a very short, but very intense. First of violence because the leftists have no weapons. I mean, Philby and his group are told to go set up the machine gun they've got. They go around looking for it and they can't find it because it doesn't exist. And so, you know, they almost can't fight back. And they're just trying to survive because the government brings in artillery. I mean, it brings in heavy artillery and shells, the apartment blocks where the workers are based and hiding. And I think a thousand people are killed. So it's a pretty dramatic crap down which pushes all these leftists into hiding. And this is where I think Philby comes alive, to some extent, because he gets really involved. You know, he rushes to see one of his friends who's the daily telegraph correspondent in Vienna, grabs three of his suits and he's going to take those down to people who are hiding in the sewers so they can change out of their kind of private militia uniforms and into these suits. He's going to be dodging bullets. You know, he's helping support the underground. He's moving people using his British passport to kind of get them out to safety, helping the wounded who are being treated, you know, again, in hiding places and underground from the violence. He's doing some pretty heroic and brave things in those days and it's just this brief period before the left is kind of completely crushed. And then another interesting thing I think is that Litzzi and her friends are all in danger because they're known left wing activists. So they're being hunted by the police. And on February the 24th, so 12 days after the uprising, he marries Litzzi, marries this young woman. This is actually going to kind of come back in the story in interesting ways, the fact that they're married. He will tell people it's purely so she has the protection of a British passport, but everyone else is convinced that actually he's in love with her. We're going to see there are a lot of women in the philipist story, but I actually think Litzzi is the one he really loved. And then I guess with a new bride in April of 1934, which I mean, I guess it's less than a year. He'd been in Vienna less than a year. The two of them go back to England and he's had this searing experience of seeing the results of fascist violence up close. He's now back in the safety of suburban England. His mother and father perhaps unsurprisingly are not keen on Litzzi. She's Hungarian, she's part Jewish. She's got strong personalities, she's a leftist. Phil being her are going to move into a kind of one room flat. He's looking for work. He was thinking about joining the civil service, not sure he'll get in. She's still moving in left wing circles. And it's at this point that he is approached by Soviet intelligence. And it's worth that really drilling down into how this happens because there's a talent spotter. And it's not Litzzi, but it's another kind of Austrian emigrate young woman in this case called Edith Tudorhart. She's called Tudorhart because even though she's Austrian originally, she's married an English doctor called Alexander Tudorhart, who'd also like Phil be gone out to Austria to kind of help and move in left wing circles. And also again, like Phil be and Litzzi, she'd then come back with Alexander Tudorhart to Britain. And she'd been under occasional surveillance actually. So M.I. Five and the police had been aware of her because she'd attended workers rally and Trafalgar Square at one point. And they'd suspected she might be working with Russian intelligence, Edith Tudorhart. Even though they're kind of aware of her, and actually at this point in 1934 looking for her, they don't know where she lives. And there's no surveillance on her, which is crucial because she is the one who is going to be the kind of intermediary, the talent spotter to put Phil be in touch with Soviet intelligence. Well, I guess crucially, the day that she kind of takes, came out on a walk in part to recruit him. There's no surveillance that day on her by M.I. Five or the special branch. So there's no evidence, I guess, of his direct contact with Edith Tudorhart or his recruitment, which because history would have been very different if that had been that way. So she says, let's go for a walk taxi, then a tube, then the bus, they get on and off as the doors are shutting, see if anyone else is still on the platform. Surveillance detection room. Two hours surveillance detection reach. She's trained, you know, she knows what she's doing. And eventually takes him to Regent's Park, they head for a bench. He sits down, Phil be sits down on the bench next to a man. And at that point, Edith just walks away. So she leaves them. It is worth painting a picture of the man he's introduced to because his name is real name, although Phil we weren't learning that for a while, is Arnold Deutsch. And I think he's got claim to be possibly one of the greatest recruiters of agents in spy history. You know, I think he is that important. Five at seven, curly brown hair, blue eyes. He's an Austrian. So again, there's no Russian or the story. You know, it's funny. It's really interesting, isn't it? The recruitment to work for Soviet intelligence is effectively done by Austrians in the case of Kim philby. Yeah, but it is interesting, isn't it? Because at that time, there were Soviet intelligence, I guess, could draw on international communists from all across Europe who were allied to the communist cause and who were willing to work for it. And they were kind of very useful, I think, for Moscow. And it allows them to move around Europe. And he he's also so interesting, because you know, he's a proper intellectual, brilliant at languages. He's already got a PhD. He's been a university lecturer. He'd worked on something called the Sex Pole Movement, David. Aware of what that is? I did my master's thesis on the Sex Pole Movement. So this is Arnold Deutsch and I have much and much in common. No, Gordon, please, will you explain to me what the Sex Pole Movement is? The Sex Pole Movement, it turns out, was a kind of something to do with the relationship between psychology, sex and politics, which linked the sexual repression to fascism. So the idea was if you were very sexually repressed, you'd end up a fascist with the corollary that if you were sexually liberated and then communism was the answer. So there was kind of, I don't know, something about free love and communism. I think that's as far as I got with Sex Pole. I didn't want to dive too deep in with the web searches into Sex Pole. I thought, take me to... Let me do a strange place. Well, if you'd had your NordVPN on, Gordon, you would have been just fine. So you need to flip that on and all the sudden that traffic's coming from North Macedonia and not your flat. But so, Deutsche, at first, I guess he was kind of a career, obviously, become a spy for his international communist networks and he's arrived in London and he's living just south of Hampstead Heath at the Lawn Road flats, which Gordon, you've noted, are quite famous, but this American has no idea what. No, they're quite famous in the 30s. I think it was kind of left-wing enclave. Although weirdly, he did next to a flat owned by, well, I'm not sure if it was inhabited by Agatha Christie. So it was a kind of quite upmarket, left-wing intellectuals' writers' world, and he's got cover, actually, as an academic. He's ostensibly researching psychology at University College London, UCL. And I think the thing about him, he's really kind of cosmopolitan, he's erudite, he's an intellectual. It's perfect to appeal to someone like Philby, a young man who has made this intellectual conversion to communism. It's just the right person for the right target. And they speak mainly in German, actually, on this bench. And Philby's, he's so impressed by him, his background, his knowledge of Europe. They discuss what's happening in European politics, the rise of fascism, marks, what Philby is doing in Austria, and it immediately feels to Philby more like a friendship. He says, he was a marvelous man, simply marvelous. I felt that immediately, and it never left me. Well, and I guess part of the pitch that Deutsche makes is to say, you know, you're capable of more than just joining the party, signing up, handing out leaflets. And it must have been flattering to Philby to be noticed, a, and then b, to be asked to work in secret for the communist cause. I mean, that's quite a, you know, obviously it's very risky, but in some ways it's a very flattering, a very flattering pitch. Yeah, it's exciting. If you believed in communism, and suddenly someone is saying, you can do something. You're not, you know, you're better than just being some normal activist. You can, you can work secretly for us. And it's interesting. He talks about the international communist cause, or the common turn, which is a communist international, rather than specifically Soviet intelligence. So, you know, Deutsche is not saying you're going to be working for Moscow, or you're going to be working for the Soviet Union. It's, you're working for international communism and the cause. Now, I think Philby would have, you know, been smart enough to realize that means also working for Moscow. But there is a kind of ambiguity about it. You think so. Do you think so? Because I wonder if this is yet another Austrian communist who is, you know, been put in touch with Philby through another contact. I just, you, I wonder, given that Philby has no experience with Russian intelligence, with Soviet intelligence at this point at all, does he realize it? Yes, does he realize who Deutsche actually is? Yes, I mean, he, it's definitely not spelled out, the Deutsche works for what's called then, we should say the NKVD, but which we now know is the kind of KGB that's later, you know, changes its name. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's true. I mean, Philby may have not quite realized that, but I love this, you know, this line that Deutsche gives them, gives him. He says, you are a bourgeois by education, appearance and origin. You could have a bourgeois career in front of you, and we need people who could penetrate into the bourgeois institutions, penetrate them for us. And it's such a great kind of speech to appeal to a kind of young leftist, isn't it? And also, it goes to Deutsche's, I mean, this is why I think Deutsche is one of the great spy recruiters in history, because he's, I think partly him, you know, it's not just come instructions from the center. Come up with a strategy which is to cultivate fresh young idealist straight out of university, and then send them into the British establishment. And of course, this is kind of different, isn't it, from what we think of normally as buying, where you're recruiting someone who already has access to secrets. You know, you recruit someone who is in a position where they have, you know, they work in the foreign ministry or in part, the secret services, and you're trying to recruit them. This is a kind of different strategy, which is a kind of long term seeding strategy to find young idealists and then tell them to be penetration agents to get into the British establishment in the elite. I mean, it's brilliant in a way, isn't it? Deutsche does exceptional work in this effort. I mean, the, I believe in the Metroken archive, I mean, it noted that Deutsche personally recruited 20 assets, like didn't just run or handle them, but actually recruited 20 people. Now, not all of them became as well connected with such primo access as Philby, but that's a, that's a pretty astounding number. And does to your point suggests that Deutsche, you know, we've done these interviews on the, on the club with former CICase officers, you know, they talk about being able to sort of understand and see the seams and cracks and people kind of get a handhold over time to understand what they want and then give it to them and it suggests that Deutsche probably wouldn't have expressed it in that way, but was capable of doing exactly that with people like Philby. Yeah. And of course, you can see why they see potential in Philby on their side. Famous father, Cambridge education, committed communist, and not yet a party member, which is quite useful. Philby had actually approached the Communist Party, but it'd been kind of initially rebuffed, as they thought it was too posh, so he's not yet kind of associated with communism, which means he can work over at least. You can see why, why they think Philby is an attractive, you know, young man who they could use to put into the system. I think I, this is why I have some kind of sympathy with Philby, not ultimately what he does or why, but you can see why with the factory with the experience he's had, why this is a kind of interesting offer to him at this point in 1934. It also brings up the question, which we're going to talk about in the next episode for sure, which is whether at this point Philby has actually done anything wrong, really. I mean, because he's, he doesn't have access, you know, I mean, he's he's basically fresh out of university. He's an ideological fellow traveler with international communism and as a result of Soviet union, but he is he's young, he's in love, he's he's adventurous. I mean, at this point, he hasn't actually stolen in a state secrets, right? We should be clear on that. I mean, he's in contact with a Soviet intelligence officer, which I think also, by the way, Philby will come to think of himself as a Soviet intelligence officer, which I think is interesting. He won't see himself as necessarily an agent or asset, but as actually a Soviet intelligence officer. But he's not, you know, he hasn't committed a speonage yet. I think you could argue. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's that idea that you know, someone's offered him the chance to do something important, to do something consequential and also to penetrate the British elite, but also to be part of an even deeper secret society, you know, to have one up on on everyone else, even inside that elite by being, you know, a kind of communist, a secret communist within the elite. So you can see, I don't know, you know, whether it's whether it's a yeah, you can see the kind of attraction of that. And I mean, some people read it also as rebellion against the father rebellion against the establishment. I mean, Edward Harrison wrote quite a good, you know, biography of the young Philby. He thinks the motive is to emulate his father, but go further, you know, his father's a bit of a lefty. So the son becomes a kind of even more of a lefty. The father was quite critical of Britain. The son, you know, goes to the next extreme. I also think there's a bit of Philby, which maybe just kind of enjoys the game and enjoys the kind of complexity and the deceit of it and having one up on others by having a secret life. I think there's a lot of layers to what's going on there, as well as the ideological commitment to Marxism. That's clearly part of it. I think it's in the Ben McIntyre book on on Philby, which is called a spy among friends where McIntyre makes the point that there's this kind of concept, which is not specific to Philby, but of an inner ring and humans by nature want to be in inside the inner ring so that they have secrets and information that other people do not. Like we naturally want to understand what's going on behind closed doors. And to the point on Philby, you know, the idea that he's got this secret, that he has information that nobody around him has about his true loyalties, who he's working for, that is actually it's a bit counter-intuitive, but that's a very powerful motivating force. And a way for him, I think, to feel superior to the people around him without actually needing to make more money or have, you know, a better job or come from a better family, he can feel that just by virtue of his, you know, his relationship to Deutsche and the decision that he's made to become a committed communist. And I guess in some ways, he's kind of trapped at this point, isn't he? Yeah, I think that's what's so interesting is he, so he effectively says yes, although Deutsche says, you know, to confirm everything will meet again in two weeks when Deutsche says I can tell you whether you've been accepted, but yeah, you're right. I think he makes that decision as a very young man, a 22. And that sets him out on a path from which effectively there's no turning back. I mean, there is a way in which I think Philby is trapped by his youthful decisions. And particularly this one decision, when as I said, he's very young, he's 22 or so. And that will define his life, what happens? That one conversation on the park bench in Regent's Park. Well, good, and there with Philby having made this incredible decision. Let's end and we come back next time. We'll see how his, his journey takes him to the bloody battlefields of the Spanish Civil War and eventually into the heart of the British Secret Service. But don't forget, if you want to hear that now, you don't have to wait and you can hear all of this four part series on Philby as well as some extra interviews we've got with an expert on the Cambridge Spies and also an amazing tape really of Kim Philby talking about what happened to him, which will have for club members. And if you want to get all of that, plus lots of other great things, then go to therestisclassify.com, join the Declassify Club. But otherwise, we'll see you next time.