OB435: Ghost Target Sorcery

Yeah, don't get me wrong. It isn't that it's unsafe, but the degree to which this squeeze play is happening, like how close do we have to watch this thing? How close are we to this being unsafe is sort of the line between safety and efficiency that I'm trying to get at. Ready. Welcome to opposing bases air traffic talk, an aviation podcast by two air traffic controllers and rated pilots who love to talk about flying, controlling and everything in between. The show is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as a substitute for your instructor, your supervisor, the FAA, the NTSB or your CAT. The show will give you a better understanding of how things work in the national airspace system and maybe even make you laugh along the way. Please welcome retired Army pilot Alpha Golf and first officer at Penguin Airlines Romeo Hotel. It's Wednesday, April 29th, 2026, episode 435 on today's show. We'll discuss intersecting runway sorcery, offer an alternative explanation on why some pilots may object to class Bravo conversion therapy and answer more of your aviation questions. What's up, BG? Hello, hello, everyone. Happy Wednesday. Yes. Back to Wednesdays. It's been nine days since we recorded. How have you been for the last nine days? Nine days, the last nine days. Pretty tired, I feel like. A couple mids and overtime. One that you showed up for. Yes. Good job. Furniture market is happening. Can you explain that? Just give a general overview of what that means for ATC and our airport. Yeah. It means a significant increase in traffic. A lot of corporate. I'd say that's the majority of the increase. I don't know. Maybe they have a few, an extra couple commercial flights, but I doubt it. Yeah, I think you're right. I doubt it. Unlikely. It's all corporate, small and small and like GA stuff. Come in park or they drop people off, come back and pick them up a few days later. Yeah, both. Okay. Yeah, there's a lot of planes on the ramp right now on all the ramps. It's been a really good week to train. We have some fantastic trainees in the train. Tell me more. I want to hear that. Yes. Very, very hopeful. I mean, one of these guys was certified in a big facility. I won't say where. But they, his family decided to move to this area and he got picked up here, which is great for us. I don't even care that he's above me in seniority. Have it. Don't care. This is going to be nice to have another reliable, dependable controller. We talked about a little bit this week with your training in their old school, if you will, sort of brought up in the same rule book that you and I came up with. How does that make a difference in terms of training and watching somebody? It's like, yeah, instead of initially, instead of trying to get in their head and figure out their plan and what are they going to do, which there's a certain point where the level of busyness really makes a difference in trying to understand what they're going to do and figuring out their plan when it wouldn't be your plan at all. This is not how I would work it. So now they're making decisions and you're trying to think, okay, why did they do that? What is the goal of that vector of that altitude? But when you're working with a generational, same generational mentality, it's incredible how universal it was across facilities because this guy working is like me working. And I'm thinking, okay, I would turn that guy next. And it happens. That's what he does. I would descend this guy. That's what he does. And sometimes the altitude might not be the same that's in my head or the heading might not be the same. But the idea is the same. Man, that takes a load off the trainer. Makes it far more enjoyable. Like, hey, I can show you the traps, some of the things that maybe you haven't seen specific to this place, this airport, this fix, this facility that won't pick up the line. Like, you can't do that. It won't work because they'll never pick up that type of thing. Right. Technique instead of really teaching somebody how to work the puzzle, he knows how to do that already. That's right. That's already done. Now we just do the things specific to us. Super easy. In a perfect world, this is how training should be for transfers. Where the trainer is plugging in to observe you show me what you know. I shouldn't have to tell you much. I can observe your technique and it probably isn't too crazy, even still a little different. Yeah. But that would make training so much faster. If there wasn't any resistance of like, wait, what are you doing? Yeah. Right. Which might be happening with other trainees, I don't know, but that is an unusual anomaly, that story, because it seemed like it's the opposite with the trainees that we've had over the year. So, excellent. Yeah. It's enjoyable. It does make it much, much easier. I am home for lots of days in between trips. This is vacation again. One of our new vacation year. Coveted end of April, early May vacation. Yeah. Kids are still in school. Everyone wants that. The beach is too cold. Yeah, it's perfect. We went to an amusement park for my son's birthday last weekend. And your equilibrium survived? Yeah. They have this thing at most parks now, I think. You pay more money and you get the privilege of not having to wait in line. And that's awesome. I'm not complaining about it. It's great. But it changes the way you feel after a couple of hours of constantly going on rides. Getting no break. None. We get off, we go back in. And like one time we did three of the big ride there, the one that goes up and lots of Gs. We did three within 10 minutes. It's not meant for that. Your body's not mine. It isn't meant for that. No. I didn't need more break time. No. That's funny. When we were in middle school, we went to an amusement park as a class trip. And by the end of the day, we stayed there all day. And by the end, maybe an hour or so before closing, everyone was gone. We were the only ones. We just went. As fast as you could go from the exit to the entrance, you're getting on this ride over and over and over. I don't think I ever recovered, I think. So they have the new modern rides. My internal jugglery. There's no vibration or shaking. It's very smooth. And then they have a wooden one that's been there since probably the 20s. Dude, I rode that several years ago. And I remember saying, and I just didn't follow my own advice. I said, I'm never riding this again. It's a terrible experience. And I thought, let's do it. I did it again. It was worse. And the whole time, my son's laughing at me because it appears as if I'm in pain because I was. I was being shaken to death. This is hurting my body. I don't like this. I don't like it. Make it stop. So anyway, lots of fun. I go back to work next week. And I'm all domestic this month. And in the flying seat. All of our domestic is flying seat. So yeah. Oh, right. There's no. There is no monkey domestic. Not even like. With a couple of exceptions there are, but yeah. Okay. Not even what? What were you going to say? Well, I don't know. Banger to LA or something like that. I know you don't. No, we don't do turns. Now, I would love to do or see what would happen. And I've proposed this idea to pilots. And some of them are like, I would do it. Sign me up. Okay. Now domestically with two pilots, we don't have enough flight time or duty time available to go cross country and back. The flight attendants can. And they do senior ones do that all the time. Really? Super productive day. Like a 14 hour duty day. They're getting 12 hours of pay. It's awesome. The only way we could do that is if we had a bunkie. Oh. So I said, I would do this if we had a bunkie. First guy said that too is like, no way. It's too much. I'm not doing it. No way. I would be fatigued. I wouldn't come back. Second guy says, Oh yeah, sign me up. Let's do it. I mean, I'd be a 12 hour one day. That is very efficient in the airline world. Right, right. Five and a half hours is starting to get into productivity. 12 is crazy high. Yeah. Go to work once, work 12 hours would be awesome. Now I'd probably regret that halfway through the second trans coming. Like, what was the idea was this? Yours. It was your idea. Here we are. Yeah. Man, in the helicopter, 12 hours would be two months worth of flying. Like, we're done. I'm done. I can take two months off. Shall we begin? Let us begin. All right. Since OB434, we have some new members on the iceberg. India Victor, Delta Bravo Tango Hotel, Charlie Mike Papa, Bravo Sierra, Delta Zulu, Victor Tango, and Julia Papa are new on Supercast. What is Supercast? If you are enjoying the show and you want to take it to the next level, you can join our premium feed. Supporters get every episode on time with no delays. Our entire back catalog access to our live stream recording, bonus audio and direct line to us through our supporter only email. You keep the show ad free and community supported. Find out more at opposingbasis.supercast.com. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Review and announcements. Review and announcements. We have lots of announcements. We're going to have to split those up, and we have to go at a reasonable pace, so we're going to be here all day. Okay. Okay. Do I? You get the review. I get the review. This is an interesting title. This five-star review titled No Sex, No Drugs, and Rock Your Wings. I like it. As a long-time listener, I have to apologize for the delay in my review. You see, I didn't actually have an instrument rating. What they're saying sounds good, sure, but what if it's all just made up? Oh, I see. Now that I've passed my instrument check right, I can confirm that the knowledge disseminated in this podcast doesn't result in an immediate check ride failure. Did they do it? Did RH and AG create something useful that is also fun? I'll need to spend more time in the NAS to be sure, but at the very least, it's fun and not damaging. And let's be honest, there aren't too many things we can say that about. Kudos to them, Julia Charlie. Well, let me just say this. There have been a few times we may have steered you wrong. We said a wrong thing. Someone corrects it. We always come back and correct it. Right. This is, the show is not damaging. This is not a damaging show. No, it's fun. You're only getting goodness here. Excellent. Thank you for taking the time to do that. Some announcements. Panguonot Romeo Victor passed his CFI check ride. Congrats. Send a note. Thank you for the great content. Devotion to the craft and the weekly chuckles. Romeo Victor under the cowboy Bravo. Congrats. That's a big rating and good luck with your first student. Number two, high RH and AG. I just wanted to share that I've received a conditional job offer via the military to Penguin Airline Transition Program. Congrats. Nice. And I'm looking forward to being, or maybe one day meeting RH in the flight station. Thanks again for everything. Panguonot, Papa Foxtrot. For those of you who don't know, there are programs set up for airlines. It's a hiring initiative by mine, Penguin Airlines, provides a direct pathway for active duty US military pilots to become first officers. They basically get their, you know, they do their application process while they're still in active duty. And it's their conditional job offers, depending on them finishing and separating and then transitioning right away to that airline. So Excellent. Cool. I love it. Congrats. You want number three? Number three from Emperor Captain November's here. Got his private pilot certificate. Congratulations. I wanted to pass along some good news after about 10 years of on and off training and finally committing to a 141 program. I earned my private pilot certificate and I'm now working through instrument training, living and following my dream. Cool. Your show has been a huge help in understanding the why behind ATC and it has definitely made me a more confident and hopefully less annoying pilot on the frequency. You've been the other voice in my ear when I needed a break from listening to the I don't know what that is. Pilot handbook of aeronautical knowledge. That's on audio. That has to be. That's brutality. If you're listening to that on the road. Well, you're driving. Whoa. This should be a warning on there. Do not operate heavy machinery. Wow. While listening to this audio. Anyway, thanks for all the insight and the laughs from Charlie West. Excellent. Congrats. Cool. And you want the last one? All right. Number four, Penguinaut and fellow Penguin pilot. Echo Mike starts OE today. He passed his check right on the 737. Awesome. Congrats. Excellent. There on OE as we speak right now as we record this. So nice. Look forward to more updates. Excellent. All right. Sneaky snooper. We're doing a Charlie Alpha segment. You want to read it? It's about you. So you should read it. Oh shoot. All right. All right. This is actual feedback from the Charlie Alpha. The namesake. I love the emphasis you put on the, I don't know how to write that. Maybe italics, but you did exactly. It worked. It worked totally. What you did worked. Okay. Yeah. Yes. The namesake of this segment. A.G. Just wanted to let you know I'm absolutely loving your stories about your time on the Chinook. It's like Combat Story meets many aviation incidents rolled into one. My two favorite things. Please keep them coming. I had no doubt you have plenty more. You briefly touched on a training exercise in one episode having to force land in a paddock somewhere. And then when you finally got it going again, it took off like a rocket and your helpful FO just said you have control. Would love to hear about that one in more detail someday. No one tells a story like you. Your dead pan humor makes an already good story. Brilliant. My fairies from the last episode was landing on the cargo ramp, formerly known as Taxiway Foxtrot. Love it. Yours are fine too, R.H. Cheers. Cheers, Charlie. Alpha. A paddock is a field. Is an Australian for field? Okay. I think that's accurate. Yeah. There's a little bit of, there's some parts of that story a little bit mixed up, but yes, that basically did happen. We got it on the ground. Altitude hold was still engaged. To temporarily disengage that, there's a trigger on the thrust or collective. When you push that trigger and move the thrust, it disengages altitude hold. So you could, let's say you're at 3000, you wanted to go to 2500, you squeeze the trigger, push down, you descend at 2500, you just let go and it stops and holds that altitude. It doesn't care that you're on the ground and you want it to be at 8000. Okay. It's like, oh, you let go of the trigger. You told me 8000 was where we were last supposed to be. Here we go. Oh, it immediately tries to recapture that altitude. Yes. Oh. Yes. And with no shortage of power on a mostly empty aircraft, it does so in quite a hurry. While the flight engineer is opening the door and is halfway out of the helicopter. Whoops. Yeah. Okay. This is also a good placeholder as a reminder in one of your amazing stories where I'm putting this mildly, the controller was less than excited about you dropping this cargo in a place that you were told specifically and explicitly not to drop it. What is the follow-up from that? Did you get a phone call? Did you get in trouble? Yes. How did that story? Okay. A phone call was waiting for me when we got back. All right. Like a, I don't remember how long that flight was, two and a half, two hours maybe from Tajibak to Taliil. And when we walked in, someone said there's a W-5 at the airfield manager at Tajibak is on the phone for you. Well, the commander from my company at that time, a major, said, what is this about? I told him the story briefly. He said, I'll take the phone call. And that was the end of it. I didn't hear another thing. I'm not getting in trouble for this. Yeah. The person on the other end of the phone is probably going to get yelled at after they give you a little grief. Okay. I like that. Yeah. It worked out well for me. I like that acting. Basically, the question was, did you declare an emergency? I said yes. And he said they didn't give you a place to put this. I said no. And we worked tight on time. We had to get rid of this load and go get gas. I didn't know if there was a provision for, hey, we're just going to shut down on the field and they're going to bring a fuel truck. I don't know if that's, I didn't know anything about that airfield. I'm sure that would have been available. Maybe, but in our minds at the time, that was not available. That's box has been tried to kill you. We put the box on the, a nice big piece of pavement called Taxiway Foxtrot. And we went and got gas. I ceased asking the tower and I just went to making C-tef calls. Excellent. Well, thank you for reminding us to tell that part of that story. Charlie Alpha, thank you for sending in some feedback and I'll try harder. So one day you'll send nice feedback about my, oh yeah, moving on. Oh boy. Dimely feedback. Dimely feedback. There are three, no, there are two of these. Which one do you want? I'll do the longer one if you want to. All right. Okay, go ahead. Number one from Supercaster Bravo. Mike just wanted to send this along as we all, as we also have the exact setup at the hipster Charlie codes like Mickey Mouse, Bravo with airports and approach request in the remarks. Okay. So the Mickey Mouse, Bravo has this sort of code list for putting in your remarks what approaches you want to what airports it's very, it's really, really fantastic. Was that on the last show? Two shows ago. 432. Yep. And it's out now, available to the public. They won't hear this, this one for a few weeks, but that one is out. That one is playable. It's really fantastic. So the hipster Charlie has the same thing. I think you know, screenshot the other day of that picture they have up somewhere. Go ahead. Yeah. With the weather being an IMC practice playground for trainees to get lots of time in actual, that's actual IMC, we love the support our hipster Charlie tower provides super quick responses. I'm listening to AG, wax poetic on how this should be universal. Supercaster, checkmate aviation, Bravo Mike is checkmate. Oh, checkmate aviation.com is a great site made for general aviation checklist needs. Check them out. Okay. This is, sorry, I was a little confused there. So this is Bravo Mike's website. Yep, his company. And I put that link in there. He didn't ask me to. Yeah, they make checklist for your plane and you can add certain little elements to it that's customized to your plane if you want, check it out. But I bigger reason for bringing up this feedback is that there are other places doing the same thing that Mickey Mouse Bravo is doing. It's, it's not the top secret somebody else picked up on it. And there is probably no reason why this can't be something that happens throughout an ass. I totally agree. If controllers knew it was available, like whoa, hold on a second. You're telling me that we could come up with a one sheet that we could put it all these flight schools to make our lives easier. Do it done. Like let's go have a meeting. Let's come up with the codes. Right. Yeah. I don't know why this is such an uphill battle. It just feels like I'm the only one that is interested in doing any of this. Maybe if they saw it and they were working it and then they realized, there went my light. What happened to my face? That looked different when it happened? Yeah. Darker. I gotta fix that. Hold on. That's a much fixed. Hold on. The light turned off. Yeah. It ran out of batteries. I thought I forgot to plug it in. Okay. All right. Hold on. Yeah. So these, these like cheat sheets, I guess you would call them at at least two places. I gotta believe it's at more places now have codes for, okay, this airport, these are the, these are the seven airports we do practice approaches to each airport has a code, one letter, and then each approach has a one letter code. And you just use that to build in the remarks what it is you want to do. That way when the controller gets the strip, they know exactly there, there's no back and forth about what it is that's happening next. And of course that's all subject to change based on, you know, current traffic and everything. But yeah, I no problem. I totally understand the, the weather part, you know, being a an IMC practice playground yesterday, the ceilings were the exact perfect altitude for IFR training. They were 1500 feet. Everybody was out doing practice approaches to the point where that coat factory, I know at one time there were two or three holding them. And some of these were just itinerant people going in not training waiting for each other to cancel on the ground or in the air, whichever one. But yeah, so it does get, it does get busy. Anyway, I love this, this idea. I'm glad that other places are doing it. Sorry about the technical snafu. Thank you, Bravo Mike. I'll get number two from Supercaster Ninja Pilot Mike Tango Hotel. We call them Ninja Pilot in previous episode, listener feedback number three at the end of OB-431. Don't quote me on that episode number. I think you might have said 341, but I feel like that was way too long ago for this to be true. But anyway, mentioned the allegedly useless Stuart 9 departure and RH did a good job explaining some of the reasons that said can actually be useful. Yes, there's a lot of information, but particularly for traffic departing runway one six, the point is to get them turning westbound before they climb into busy Metro Big Apple airspace. If anybody wants to follow along, you can pull up the Stuart 9 departure for SWF airport in New York. And they have a SID that looks useless, but it doesn't have some words that you need to read. And one of them says, on this runway at this altitude, start a turn so you don't keep going in the wrong direction. Compared to Triad, that's unusual. RS have fixes that you typically get cleared direct to and the controller because we're Charlie and I feel like this is normal to Charlie will issue you a heading on takeoff. Yeah, my experience in Bravo's is that is not the case. You are required to be on the SID, you read it back, you typed in except when you took your PDC clearance and those SIDs are built into our box and it gives you turn guidance. You're not waiting for a vector. You're turning in accordance with the SID. Right. They continue one common pilot errors to overlook that initial turn on government charts. The narrative description is easy to miss because it's on page two and on page one, the density of information about the VOR frequencies you're unlikely to use can obscure the graphic depiction of an all important turn. Totally agree. The same is true of the Prop 1 departure nearby at White Plains, which also has a runway one six with an even lower turn 800 feet. For some reason, I find it oddly interesting that tens of thousands of YouTube viewers have listened to the New York Traycon chew out airline pilots for flying runway heading after departing Kennedy or LaGuardia for getting to promptly turn and follow the SID on an initial climb out. That same thing happens to GA aircraft departing the satellite airports. Preach. If you stay on runway heading and the frequency isn't too busy, the departure controller will politely ask which SID you were assigned to for some reason they can't easily look that up and proceed to school you on how to fly that procedure. Don't let me forget to go back to that. Sometimes when traffic pattern when traffic permits, they they then turn you directly towards your destination such that neglecting the initial turn actually work to your advantage. However, I don't know any pilots who would repeat that mistake on purpose. Nobody likes to get publicly corrected by your traffic. The controllers who work New York are some of the best and sharpest around. They expect pilots to be on our game and it's satisfying when we manage to keep up. Good point. Another tool is in the ATC toolbox would be the Brasher warning turning the situation adversarial intense. Thankfully, use of that is quite rare. Instead, the big Apple vibe focuses on working together to improve safety and efficiency. So listen up and try to do better next time. Maybe fill out a NASA ASRS report after the flight just in case. All right, I'm going to zoom out. For these airports that are deltas near Bravos where this turn is important, you're going to penetrate airspace that they don't want you near. And the SID that you took and read back has words on it that say, when you get to this altitude, you're going to make maybe a 90 degree turn. If they're repeatedly missing that, and I mean more than once a day, maybe it's time to evaluate that procedure. Hey, they're somehow in this process from getting your clearance to getting a takeoff, we have to make sure they understand they need to turn. And that may mean that the local controller issues you a turn before they ship you. I'm going to make sure that you turn because I watch GA do this all the time and I don't want to get back into the back and forth with it. All right. I want you to actually turn. My second thing I want to make sure I don't forget. If you're the controller and you ask a pilot, what SID were you given? Typically, that means you did something contrary to what I expected you to do. At which point the controller can and should, in my opinion, just give you the turn they want. Let's talk about the details later. But starting an interview of what SID did you get? When I know you should have turned by now, and I need you to have turned by now, it's wasted time. Just turn them. Is that fair? Yes, it is fair. But I totally sympathize with that question when it happens over and over. This happens to us not in the same way, but from satellites like Mike Tango Hotel mentioned here, this tendency to go runway heading. You're released. You were cleared as filed. You're released. And it is daily, multiple times daily, including jets, small GA training. They just come out runway heading. Off a non-towered airport where they were given a release. A little bit different. A little bit different, but the same feeling from the controller side. Like what are you doing? Why are you runway heading? It doesn't matter until it does. And you fly runway heading into terrain that you were supposed to turn. And I couldn't get to you fast enough. Now you're heading in the wrong direction. You never called me. You didn't even check in. Now we don't have any terrain that's that close to any airports if you flew runway heading. But we do have one where if you took off runway heading and flew too long without calling me, you won't be able to call. I'll never get you. Now what are you going to do? I wanted to take this opportunity to say that as a public service announcement. If you were not assigned runway heading, but you were cleared as filed and given a release off a non-towered airport, stop flying runway heading. The controller is expecting you when you can after complying with whatever departure procedure, if there is one or a diverse departure turning on course. That is what cleared as filed means. Not runway heading. Please stop doing that. It's becoming a problem. All right. And I'll add to that if you're at a towered airport and they give you a SID and the tower controller did not say runway blank, turn left or right. That's a great opportunity for you to look at the SID real quick. Hey, what am I supposed to turn here? Because that's what they expect. Yes. We have said it on the show before. I think we've leaned the other direction heavily that the tower controller will give you a turn. That's not the case everywhere. If you were given a SID, if they didn't give you a SID, you're going to need some help. What do you want me to do after I take off? Fly runway heading, turn left or right. But if you were on a SID and it has a description that requires a turn, that's yours to comply with. Just like as filed, like your example at a non-towered, you're required to comply with an ODP, which won't be given in a clearance in most places. And if there is none at 400 feet, your IFR, turn on course. Go to your first fixed file. That's what they gave you. That's what the clearance was. Right. Cool. Sorry. No. It just happened yesterday and it was a problem. It became a problem. And the pilot calls and says, how long do you want us to be on runway heading? I said, were you assigned runway heading? They said no. Never. I never wanted you on it. No, one never wanted you on that. You're doing that to yourself. There's a disconnect in how that's taught. So instrument students out there, you may have learned this once and then just never had it happen again. You left places where they gave you positive control from the ground. You're not used to going to a non-towered airport. It might be unfamiliar for you, but this is a great reminder. Clear as filed means to turn on course at the appropriate altitude. The other thing that happens all the time is releases when the controller says you're released, void, if not in 10 minutes. That is not a takeoff clearance. You have to pay attention to the traffic that's in the pattern there that's on fine hole. You can't just go blasting off into the world thinking that's a takeoff clearance. It is not a takeoff clearance. Two different things. Two different things. Sorry. I just want to... This is becoming... It's becoming a thing. It's so common. It's daily. Someone says, all right, we're clear for takeoff. No, no, no, no, no, no. You are not clear for takeoff. I can't say those words. You're at a place where there is no tower. I'm not there. You realize I'm not with you. I'm 25 miles from where you are. You realize you're not talking to someone there, right? Right. Yeah. All right. Cool. I'm glad we got to work that out. Yes. All right. Moving on. Face the jam music. All right. This week's show topic is loosely titled Crossing Runway Sorcery from Emperor Captain, Kilo Romeo. Hello, Sherpas of the Nass and Emperors of the Airways. I like that. Supercaster Kilo Romeo with you. Long time listener. First time feedbacker. Thanks for always making my commute interesting and entertaining. The Aspen discussion from OB430 inspired me to finally muster up feedback of my own. Cool. I fly for the speedbird of the triad and out of the cheesesteak bravo, especially when arriving from the south, we small but mighty types often get sequenced into the runway 35 while the big boys, the big boy commandeer, the two sevens. Is that what he meant to say? Yeah, the big boys. Okay. The bigger planes. Excuse me. I actually discussed this with the guys I went to lunch with today. Oh, go ahead. Interject. They're in the seven three in the Airbus. Okay. They don't ever get assigned 35, but they fly into this airport all the time. That used to be the dash eight runway and now it's the regional jet runway. That's the popular. Yeah, basically. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So we're talking about an airport with crossing runways and they use them actively all the time. All the time. It is a normal operation. Yes. Put normal in quotes. Okay. Mildly scary for controllers like us. So there we are the other day descending into runway 35 hunting for the lower traffic on final for two seven right against the backdrop of skyscrapers and bridges. Fun doing the mental math, refreshing our go around profile all while quietly wondering, is this actually going to work out of nowhere? The robot voice in our ear as if reading our collective final approach, anxiousness rings out. Spacing looks good. Pleasantly surprised yet somewhat skeptical. We continue and land uneventfully. All right. There's a lot to break down in this. So we're going to stop at each question. How about that? All right. Here's my three part question. Part one, when working radar and sequencing airplanes to intersecting runways, what techniques are you using to keep metal from meeting metal both on landing and during rollouts? Take it away. All right. What kind of magical sorcerer are you using at Triad? At Triad? Well, we do have some crossing scenarios that are, I would say, we do use a couple of times a day. They're not nowhere near the use of this big Bravo airport in the Northeast, but we, okay. So we don't have any automated tools to help us accomplish this. It's just a learned, it is a learned technique. What is going to work and what is not going to work and who really needs to be through the intersection first depending on what your planned sequence is and which runway you're on. So where the intersection is on this, on the runway really matters. It really matters because if it's 9,000 feet down the runway, like for us on two, three left, the crossing runway is way down there. It's 9,000 feet. So that plane is going to be on two, three left for a long time. It's never going to go through the intersection most likely. So it has to be off the runway before the three two, the crossing runway can cross the threshold. Now, if you make the three two guy first, that's fine, but they need to be through the intersection. And you kind of need, if it's going to be as tight squeeze play, you need to convey that to the pilot. No delay through the intersection. When you touch down, they will land and slow down. All right. Let me review. If I had to sit down with a trainee today and we were on two threes and somebody wants to land three two, my experience tells me three two has to be number one. And I tried to figure out why I would say that. Tell me if this rule of thumb is crazy. Whoever has the least amount of distance to cover on the ground to get through this conflict intersection should and must be number one. Yes. And a squeeze type. Otherwise, you just have to make it like extra space, right? Yes. A ton of extra space. Right. So that means that if you're going to accept this three two, there has to be less distance over the ground in radar world to cover, to get them one, to get to the airport and two, get through this intersection before number two crosses the threshold. That takes without any aids. We're going to talk about some aids in the next question, but without any aids, that's experience. You have to be, you have to account for airspeed or ground speed, which is usually the problem, because the three two customer is typically slow compared to the two three left. So we're trying to make the number one, the slower one, we're trying to make them number one. That is much harder than then you think. And when you're actually doing it. So you're training the new guy, you sit down and you watch them work this out. And you know, there's a few airplanes on final for two, three, but there's a gap for three, two. What would you be thinking? How would you teach that here? Because that's a runway configuration they've never worked with. What would you be hoping they did at that point? You got to just do a little bit of quick mental math. It doesn't, it's not complicated. It really is not. You just have to look and say, okay, fast jet to two, three left is double the speed of slow guy to three, two. He must be more. If he's exactly double the distance, we have a problem. Right. Cause you need more. Because that's a tie. Right. That's a tie. That can't work. So, so you need the amount of space that it takes the slow guy to go from the threshold to crossing through to three left. That's the amount of extra space from a tie that you need. So how long is it going to take that to happen? And how long, how far is the jet going to go? Okay. Well, that's, I don't know. You don't really. So because we don't have a target, we don't have that automation we just have to be a little bit inefficient. There you go. We have to be a little inefficient and give extra room. Which means you can't look at it and say, ooh, is this going to work? You have to look at it and say, oh, this is working. Unless something really crazy happens, this is going to work. That's kind of how you have to work it. Just a general reminder, we haven't talked about this in a long time. I was, I got super defensive about this sometimes if I was in the tower and somebody gave me a tie, I'm the tower controller is not my responsibility to fix that conflict. The Traycon should not have set me up with a tie. There should be no mystery when I get it in the tower. It should be obvious who number one is, who number two is all I'm there for is to clear the runways and make sure they're cleared to land. That's it. Yeah, not to sequence to the airport. Yeah, what you gave me should work. So let me reiterate this. The Traycon is responsible for the sequence to the airport. There should be no debate on this. There are people who disagree with that. Lazy Traycon controllers who say, let's tower work it out. That's ridiculous. I can't do that. They don't have the tools in the airspace that you have to work it out. All right. I just wanted to throw that out there. All right, part two of the question. I've heard legend of some mystical tool allegedly wielded by Traycon and or tower sorcerers that definitely answers the spacing question. No feel, no finesse, just fact. Is this true? What do you know of this alchemy? I had to go do some homework on this because we don't have this. There was talk of this several years ago. It's called the Converging Runway Display Aid, CRDA. I don't know what they, how they refer to it and places that use it, but it does appear to have some magical powers. It places a ghost target on the screen, either someone to follow a target for another airplane to follow. In other words, if you follow this target with the applicable distance requirement, you won't have a deal. It's giving you something to target on the screen. In the case of Cheesecake Bravo, it appears just on some YouTube investigation that they try to put the 35 arrival right on top of the ghost target. If you put it right here and you can make your 35 arrival, stay on this dot, stay on this moving target, the conflicting 27 right traffic is, there's enough space. It'll work. You'll be able to land and get through the intersection. All right, go ahead. Take the rest of this away. What do you got? Based on the little research, I know I hand it to you last minute, but what's your understanding of this awesome tool? Yeah, so right. So like you said, we don't have it. We do, I believe, have the infrastructure to have it. Okay. Just would take somebody setting it up. What are the parameters? Where, how do you want this target to display? So the way that this is working at Cheesecake is that the aircraft on final for the big runway displays a target, a ghost target on the final for the crossing runway. So it shows up over there on the final. See, I missed that part of that, that part of the video. I saw the one on final for 35, but okay, go ahead. Yeah. So, and the way they have it set up is that you're trying to put, from what I could tell, you're trying to put the target from the actual plane that's landing on the small runway over the target, the ghost target for the crosser guy. Okay. That will result in sufficient spacing. 35. I'm getting through first. Right. I'm guessing, based on what it was looking like, you want it on or behind? Yes. Yeah. The video that we watched, I think 27Right was supposed to touchdown first and get through the intersection. And the problem was, and we can't play this on the show, but the radar controller, for whatever reason, not point and finger, something happened with speed or projection. They were ahead of that target. The 35 arrival was too far, which means, hey, if you were going to be number two, you can't be in front of this dot. You have to be behind the ghost target or this isn't going to work. And it resulted in a double go around, which had to be a traumatic experience from the tower, because those are in terrible spots. Yeah. Two of them going around like that because they're very close together. But yeah. So, in this video, it is the tower controller doing what they have, the tools that they have, S-turns. Yes. Make a big S-turn, okay, make a shallow try to get on this to get him on this target. Yes. And they don't have that much space to work with. There's only so many things they can do. I think something to point out with this tool is, it's not a matter of, hey, is this going to work? The controllers can work a few months of this. You're going to see, I know this is going to work or not. They want them to get to the point where it works, but it barely worked so that we're maximizing efficiency. We don't want you creating the type of space we would have in the triad, because we have to make it work. We don't get a tool to help us. This has to work, and we don't want anybody to go around. Nobody does. And we don't want to leave something to watch. Right. And we're going to be more conservative about it to make that happen. I have to put my attention somewhere else. I have to look around this scope. I can't babysit this squeeze play that I'm running here. We're at an airport like Chewstick. They have to run this efficiently or the whole operation falls apart. Yeah. And then you're talking about delays in the entire NAS. Yeah. So that target is meant to, no, no, no. I don't want you to give it extra room. Put the airplane right on this target. We're telling you it's going to work. And this is how we're going to keep accepting this many arrivals every hour. If you don't do that, get out of that chair and put somebody in it who's going to because you're going to slow down the whole NAS. Yeah. And what makes this easy in terms of this tool and the traffic is that the planes are going the same speed. Yes. Equal or yes. Okay. So if the small runway guy is a skyhawk doing half the speed, the usefulness of this tool decreases significantly. Okay. Because now you need this target to catch up to from behind the actual plane. Right. And come together right at the threshold basically. You're trying to create a tie with slow guy and the ghost target at the threshold. With different speeds, that big of a difference would be very difficult. It's super difficult. Now you're just back into the problem that we're dealing with all the time. Where the ghost, and that's why we kind of decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze on figuring out this ghost target because it's a math problem anyway. Right. Yeah. So and a couple of times you do it a day might not be worth learning it. No. I will object to one comment about the no finesse. I would be willing to bet that a controller would say, no, no, no, no, no. Just because I have this tool doesn't mean I don't have to do something for me to get my targets. Oh, sure. On this spot. I'm sure it requires finesse. It's just they're moving their required work mental activity further back in the problem to make that work. They're not waiting until like, we're inside of 10. Who's first? No, no, no, no. I got this figured out. We have all this center's feedness on these posts perfectly. I have to put a target right here or this whole thing falls apart. I would say that's probably as hard or more difficult even with the tool. Yeah, it's not easy. Right. But you know, if you're touching that thing, it's gonna work. And I don't have to sit here and worry about it. Right. All right. Part three, looking at the triad specifically, do you run simultaneous arrivals on two, three left and three two? If so, are these also the tools of your trade? We kind of talked about some of this. They're not really the tools of our trade outside of doing the math. I just throw out some common ones that I can think of. Arrival to arrival, two, three left and three two. We talked about if three two wasn't first, two, three left has to land slow down, turn off at a 90 degree turn off. It takes forever. You'll learn the first time you mess that up or see that in the tower, you're gonna realize, I can't ever do this. This won't work this way. Yeah, you got to have so much extra room. The three two guy has to be miles behind. Yes. You have to basically treat it like him being on the final for two, three left behind this two, three left arrival. Yes. Or it's just not gonna work. You got to have the time for this guy to stop and exit the runway. The second one I thought of brings back some trauma experience as a trainer in the tower. A two, three left departure and there's somebody coming in for three, two or one, four and arrival. That, like AG said, is about 9,000 feet down the runway. The time from you clearing a jet even for takeoff and then crossing that intersection, which is what has to happen for this three, two or one, four arrival to it's a 90 degree perpendicular runway for them to cross the threshold that first departure has to get through the intersection. It takes forever. It takes a jet about a minute and a half. Right. Short of the runway cleared for takeoff from then until they're airborne through the intersection. Is about a minute and a half. A skyhawk doing roughly a mile and a half a minute needs to be greater than three mile final. And that seems like forever. Like, oh, they're on a three mile final. I got plenty of room. Everybody except for the trainee is watching this going, huh? Yeah. This is close. This is going to be super close and they don't even know it. Yeah. Right. Have you had any trainees do this one and learn the hard way? Yes. Tell us about it. I don't know that I can comment on it currently ongoing investigation. Okay. So what did you do as the trainer when they, like, what are your outs? You know, I could, I could fix this if I do this. What are you thinking as you watch them try to work out this time? This one is not a super straightforward. You're not going to cancel the takeoff clearance of this jet, like screaming down the runway. That's, this guy is flying. That's happening. So now you've got to fix it with your small guy on three, two. Just saying go around is not, in fact, that might be the worst thing. That might be the worst thing. Because you're aiming towards the place in space where they will touch the two through the departure. You probably would be safer to, to let them land and just take the error. Honestly, you're putting them back into a place. If they land there one, they're easily going underneath this plane. Yeah. Let's, like, let's reinforce that. Hold on. The intersection of three, two and two through left the jet in almost every scenario. I can't even remember a time where they wouldn't be off the ground by then. No, if they weren't off the ground by then, they're going to hit something on the departure end, unless it's a fighter. Like they're just, it's virtually at the end of the runway. So what AG is suggesting is if you let this three, two or have across the threshold, the touchy, touchy parts, that risk is gone. We had an operational error, but that same, in that say, argument though, if you send them around, the chances of them getting to the point where they actually intersect would be low also, depending on the speed. But so it depends on how close they're going to be. If you think that they could touch at the intersection somehow, you got to turn the three, two or level, turn them, enter a downwind for two, three left. That happens a lot. That's usually our out with a small, a slow guy, cancel landing clearance, turn right, 90 degrees, enter the downwind for two, three left. That's usually what happens. It's in a straining scenario. This is awful because you have to cut that off pretty early. You're not going to wait until they're short final. You're going to have to say, all right, do you think this is going to work? Yeah. Oh yeah, no. Really? Okay. No, it's not. And the problem is if you cut it off and you say, it's absolutely not going to work, you never get to prove that it wasn't going to work. They will always believe that it was going to work. That's what they believe. Another scenario, a three, two departure and a two, three left arrival. This scenario is far easier to watch and execute. The three, two takes much less time to get through that intersection. It's only three or maybe 4,000 feet down the runway. So even a slow mover, a Skyhawk or Cherokee is going to get through that intersection pretty quick. So I would rather teach that and watch them work out the timing on that. Like, hey, let's start a timer. Like watch how long it takes for them to get through this. Just take a guess. How long is it going to take? When you say, Clifford take off, they're over here on taxiway, Alpha. How long is it going to take for them to get on the runway and go through? I just, give me a guess. Okay. I think it's going to take a minute. It'll probably take more than that, but okay. All right. How long until this rival touches down? Way more than a minute. Okay. Then this should work. Let's watch it. I think teaching some time there and actually looking at a clock is helpful for the new person who's never seen this uncomfortable drag of, I'm about to have a deal here. You don't want that discomfort. Yeah. Really a good thing is just to say, to have some rules. Make some of your own rules. Okay. A three, two departure with a two, three left arrival jet. If they're not like types, the jet needs to be on four miles or farther for this tour. You know, I don't know. That's a good cut off. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever the cut off is. Have a cut off. Inside of that, we're not doing this. We're waiting and it's okay to wait. We're trying. Just wait. Yeah. We're not just going down the Nass. We're not, exactly. Right. Any other crossing scenarios that are more common that I'm forgetting about? The five right three, two is way easier. Yep. That's the easiest one because five right doesn't even touch down. They go airborne through the intersection. Yeah. So they just scoot right through. Yeah. It makes this, it makes it much easier. And yeah, it just makes it much easier. What's the hardest probably, or what looks the scariest, like you said, a five right arrival and a three, two departure. Because it can be close and legal. It can be close. And I have had a couple of those where I cleared a three, two for immediate traffic. In this case, it was an MD-80. All right. On a whatever, two and a half mile final. That MD-80 pilot keyed up immediately and said, if we go around, which way do you want us to? Is this going to work? I said, it's going to work. Now I knew the customer on three, two. Okay. I know you're talking about. That matters too. Huge difference. Huge. Yeah. They're going to go. Yeah. New student pilot. No. You're not being involved in this. No. All right. My second point down here, and we kind of talked about this, kind of wrapped this one up. If the tower controller's reaction to two aircraft checking in is how is this going to work, and they're experienced and have seen this play out before, that means the Treycon messed up. Yes. There should never be a question. Never. And if radar thinks, I'm just going to slough it off on the tower and hit the button and say, local west, your control for both those, that is admitting that they messed up and hoping that you have a solution, that should not happen. I've been a victim of that. I've heard that before. Your control. All right. He's coming back. Go around. Yes. A cancel approach, Clarence. Yeah. I maintain. Turn right heading. Okay. My control all the way to resequenzoom. Yeah. You want me to just... And one last point, the tower traffic, if you're working the tower and you have pattern traffic, you need to account for what's coming. Absolutely. You do not have right of way. I know this creates a little bit of anxiety, and some people get upset about this. I was in training one day on radar, and a supervisor said, hey, look what's going on in the tower. You think that's going to work? And I said, how am I supposed to know? That's on them. Yeah. Okay. Now, there are some exceptions to that. And we actually discussed this yesterday. Okay. What you're saying is true. Tower must eat what radar feeds them. Eat it. Cold broccoli with no ranch. Just eat it. The times where I'm willing to sort of try to help them, they have a 747 in the pattern. That's different. Okay. Okay. Right. They have a 757 in the pattern, a P8 in the pattern, like they got their hands full. It doesn't help anybody for me to jam jets in three and four miles apart with nowhere to put this 75. Agreed. Spending over downtown. Agreed. Like this is not helpful. So. Yeah, because they're just going to say, all right, contact departure and make it your problem. If you're- That's what they- That's exactly what I would do. Okay. You're not going to give me space. You make the space. Because like I said earlier, the tower doesn't have the space to figure this out. Radar has huge amounts of airspace to vector jets around and make a gap for tower to put their jet pattern. Now, if I'm busy, and this was the other caveat, if I'm busy and there's just planes coming in and coming in, like there was yesterday, sorry tower. Here they come. Just tell them your pattern work unable. Right. Like, hey, you're going to catch a delay. We got 15 arrivals coming in in the next 20 minutes. Right. If you need to do approaches, now would be the time. Go back to radar. Yeah, go back to radar. Yeah. Yeah. Or go to Duke. Ha, ha, ha. Yeah, right. That you're here for a reason or further away, but we're the most convenient place to do practice work. And for those of you laughing, say in the new version of 75 and a 747 in the pattern all the time, that's where the military comes to practice because of our runways. Now, in a perfect world, you've given them one side of the airport and arrival and departures or just leave them alone. Let them do their thing for a few hours and maybe share departures with them. But there's probably a reason that you couldn't put them on another runway. I don't know what it is, but if you can isolate them to one part of the airport, that would be helpful for both parties. Yes. All right. So zooming out, we don't have any of the fancy tools, but cheesecake bravo is also not mixing in skyhawks with jets. So it's important to realize that while the tool may be helpful, it may not work everywhere. It may not be useful in the same way at another airport and controllers have to get a feel for crossing runways. And until you're comfortable and good at it and know it's going to work, baby steps to get to that point. You shouldn't be wondering on radar if this is going to work. Just hand them super conservative. Yeah, build some space. Non ties and it'll work out fine. Anything else that you want to say about all this? Well, you and I discussed this morning about, you know, this can go on all day, every day, for years and years and years. The public will never say anything. At this busy airport, yes. Right. It'll never be a thing unless something happened. And then they're going to go, well, why were you doing this? We've been doing it for years. It works fine. Yeah. And so when you're as a member of the flying public, when you're looking at this scenario going, I don't, why is this necessary? Why do we have to do this like this? Can't we just space it out more? Right. Everybody goes to one runway instead of crossing. Okay. Okay. In the rules of supply and demand, when you say, okay, we're going to increase the spacing and cut the number of jets that come in here by 25%? Sure. Something like that? So that we don't have to do this. Well, when you cut the amount of supply, demand increases and price increases. So now your plane tickets just went up and you might not even get one. Mm-hmm. These planes are full and they're expensive. Mm-hmm. That's why this is happening. Or being as efficient and maximizing the use of the runways available. You can't have it both ways. Right. You can't have it both ways. I agree. It is the blending of safety and efficiency. That is what this whole system is about. Let's be efficient and let's be safe and work somewhere in the middle of that, because you can't do both 100%. You can't do both 100%. If you want to be 100% safe, like this is never going to be, you're going to work a tenth of the amount of planes into a place. You can't have it both ways. Well, it's always safe. It's just a matter of the degree of discomfort to keep it safe. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. No, you're right. Right. Yeah, don't get me wrong. It isn't that it's unsafe, but the degree to which this squeeze play is happening, like how close do we have to watch this thing? How close are we to being, to this being unsafe is sort of the line between safety and efficiency that I'm trying to get at. Understood. I just know what people would say. Why are you doing this? Yeah, so your tickets are cheaper and you don't have delays. Every single day. It's already like, it already operates on the thin margin of fragility, where the smallest little thing creates ripples and then the whole east coast is just gridlock. To keep your tickets cheaper, I guess, really. Okay. I think that's a good point to end it on. Okay. I was going to do a shout out to the controllers up there. Bro, quick, you do a great job. They do. They do a great job. I will say, I would be very uncomfortable if I was trading in that tower because you're watching close, like the airplanes are getting very close. Yeah, yeah, the tool says it's going to work. It will be very hard for me at the beginning not to key up and say, hey, if one of you is going around, this is the one I need you to touch down, land the airplane because this problem gets super ugly if you both go around. It would be very hard not to say that and maybe they'll have it at one point and someone said, stop doing that. They're not going to both go around until they both did. And you're like, now what do I do? Well, so I felt like in that video that you sent, that that was implied. I did too. The controller said this is going to be close. If it's just to go around, it's the three five guy. Okay. You on two seven, put the wheels on the ground please. You are landing. Let the other guy go around. That's the go around plane. So shall it be written? Excellent. Anything else? We got a couple of feedbacks and then we'll be all set. Okay. All right. No, I don't. Thank you for the awesome question. Kilaromio, sorry that took a little bit and hopefully we answered your questions. As long as it took us to do that. Good question. All right, moving on. Feedback time. Feedback. I'll get number one from Supercaster Papa Victor. My first CFI taught me that the pilot should never use the word takeoff before a controller says it. This is to avoid the confusion about whether a clearance has been issued. Now I'm a CFI and teach this practice myself. Pilots should say things like I'm ready to taxi for a South departure when they're ready to taxi or ready for departure when you are ready at the runway to launch. After the controller says clear for takeoff, then the pilot can read back that clearance and use the special word. They sent us a video where a controller, I thought was very nice about it. He didn't chastise the pilot, but a pilot said they wanted to take off. That was, you know, it might have been a student pilot or a lower time pilot who's, I had to really think back if I ever heard a pilot say that when they want to taxi. Hey, we want to take off and fly South. You don't hear that, right? Yeah, we're ready to taxi for takeoff. Yeah, maybe. That's not super common though. Yeah. But the controller did a really good job of saying, Hey, well, and he waited till there was time or other airplanes to talk to, Hey, try to reserve this word for when it's, when it's part of a clearance. I tell you when you take off, I don't want anybody to get confused, which I thought was good. The controller said that this is something that is taught to controllers. And I don't remember this being taught to me. And maybe I just knew it being a pilot, but it doesn't seem to be taught to pilots. The video illustrates a pilot gently asking pilots to our controller asking pilots to avoid the word until it's being read as part of a clearance versus your intentions before taxi. What are your thoughts and experience with this? Again, I came into air traffic world as a pilot already as did you. I don't know that I ever requested to taxi and included the word takeoff. I think this is a good rule of thumb. I do too. Save it for the clearance. I'm just not, I'm not sure you're going to find anything in a book that explicitly prohibits you from saying it. I'm not aware of, I'm not aware of one, but it's, it's typically not even common down there short of the runway. Right. I'm ready to go. We're ready to, we're ready for takeoff. That doesn't, no, I feel like it's not super common. And I definitely agree that it shouldn't be used. Yeah. And good for you for teaching it to your students now. Yeah. Because they might not read it and they may not have been told it. And there's a perfect example of why it might get confusing. So yeah. While we're on the topic of holding short of the runway and saying you're ready to go. If the, if the controller just responds, Roger, let, leave it at that. What we're trying to avoid, at least me, now some controllers don't have a problem just saying, you know, Roger, landing traffic, hold short runway two, three left. Okay. The second I say that, you gotta get a read back. I have to have a read back. And I have to have it with a call sign. I, now there's all these boxes I got to check. And, and if none of, if those boxes don't get checked and I let that guy land, somebody's going to ask me, how did you accomplish that? Right. So for me, you said we're short of two, three left, we're ready to go. I just acknowledged that. I heard you. Okay. That's all you said when you said Roger was, I heard you. Yeah. And now on the pilot side, if you hear that, resist the urge to ask more questions. Yes. Perhaps you're not the only person in this scenario. It's possible you can't see the reason you're not being clear for takeoff. Sit there and enjoy the sound of the engine for a few minutes. Just let it be. I'll rewind on that one, just zooming out for those of you who don't know, if you're taxing to an active runway, the controller does not have to tell you to hold short of the runway that you're taxing to. It's implied, but as soon as they say the words hold short, landing traffic, they have to get a read back per the book. It's silly. I've gotten to this argument before. I've done the Roger. Well, you didn't tell him to hold short. I know, because he stopped already in the exact place that I expected him to be stopped. Right. Why am I going to start this back and forth? Yeah. Don't get me started. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. I just said I heard you. Right. Sometimes you will get ignored. They don't want to even start a dialogue with you. That's a good time for the controller to go find somebody else to talk to, so they realize that you're alive. They heard, I hear this person talking. Not every saying you're ready doesn't always get a response. You might get ignored, because they don't want to have this dialogue right now. The next time they want to talk to you is when they can clear for takeoff. Right. We did that. Right. Yes. Yes. Good. All right. Last one. You want number two? Number two from Implicitaptin, Julia Golf, a significant portion of OB-431 was devoted to the concept that pilots shouldn't have objection to airspace being converted from C to B. Everything was logical, but it begs the question, why are GA pilots hostile to the concept? There are two sides to this issue. Some may just not like talking to ATC, and for these, I have no sympathy, and I expect that they are few of your listeners. I agree with that, I think for the most part. People that... Anyway, why would we listen to your podcast each week if we would not enjoy the sound of your melodic voices? Yes, exactly. The hostility may come from how they have been treated by some Bravo controllers flying a little single prop. I have been treated well by Bravo controllers near the nation's capital, other places, and even Wendy City, on the other hand, when flying in the vicinity of Metroplex, unless landing GA aircraft are generally treated as mosquitoes that need to be swatted away. I was surprised to read that. I am too, because I have heard the opposite also. And now, I have been exposed on a more regular basis to a controller that worked that airspace, and I feel like from what they've said, that they're pretty accommodating. When they can be, okay. There are times when they cannot. We just can't, but right now we can, and we will. If VFR, the only thing that the controllers have to say is, stay clear of Bravo airspace. If IFR stand by to copy a routing taking you near Canada or Mexico, rather than Metroplex, forgive the slight exaggeration. So when you say, if they make it a Bravo, it doesn't mean you can't go in. You only have to ask. I said that. Yes. It's a generalization. Okay. All right. I take it with more than a grain of salt. If Bravo controllers don't want GA pilots to think of them as exterminators, treat us with a little courtesy. Apologies in advance to the many Bravo controllers who like GA pilots in their itty-bitty aircraft. Be a little bit respectful of us, and we won't think of you as the big bad Bravo. Of course, there are some Charlie controllers southeast of you who may have an attitude problem, but I digress. Juliet, golf. This is always, this is a tough conversation. There's just, because I sympathize with both sides. There are times when Bravo controllers, I get not adding extra, not putting more on their plate than they already have. I totally get it. I think there are times where they could be more accommodating, but I don't know because I've never worked airspace like that. I can't really say what my mindset would be. I do know that in situations in my airspace, when there are aircraft there that are legal to be where they are, but aren't talking to me, I get, it is, it can be very trying. It can be very trying. So I understand the desire to push that. Look, if you're not going to talk, I'm going to push you out. That's basically what the Bravo is doing. Right. That is what's happening in this area. They're working at like Bravo now, without the protection of the aircraft having to get clearances to be in places where they don't want them. Near their finals and near their departures, which in Charlie is perfectly legal, very close to those places and very inconvenient places for planes to be. While I agree that it's probably not people listening to this show, unfortunately, there are many, many out there who don't agree with that. They are the ones that have created this monster by your non-participation and unwillingness to accept a change to your route. To go around, to go to different altitude, to do something you didn't exactly want to do, the FAA has just had to say, okay, fine, we are going to make airspace you can't go into. Right. Yeah, that is an effect. I'm going to zoom out a little bit. It is probably true at Triad. I know it was. On different sides of the schedule, it could be the same crew on a different part of the day, I'm sorry, a different crew on the same part of an actual day of the week. Wednesday morning versus Wednesday night crew. Totally different styles of working. If your experience in a Bravo is, like you said, being treated like a bug where they want to swat away, it could have been isolated to a certain crew. A time of day, you always fly at the same time through this airspace and you always get treated terribly. It might be the same handful of controllers. Culturally on their shift, that's how they do it. You are a nuisance to them. Come back two days later at a different time of day, you might get a totally different experience. I'm not using that as a defense. I totally agree with that though. I think the controllers at this airport would object to, you're not saying anything super disparaging, but there are ones going, really? I wouldn't think that that would happen here. They just never see it, but it probably happens at the ones that you said treated you well. There's probably a handful of controllers that are going to swat you away. They're not going to do it. It's extra work. It's extra work to put you in a place that's legal. To keep you safely and legally separated and some controllers don't want to do it. If the book says I have an option to decide if I want to do that, some, not all, some controllers are going to pick the route of least resistance. I'm just not working you. This isn't your playground. This is for the airlines. I'm not agreeing with that. I'm just saying there are culturally some controllers that may think that way. Yeah. Yeah. That's tough. There has to be times, it has to happen like that, where there's so much airline stuff going in here. We just can't. We shouldn't. It's not that we can't. That's the wrong word. We shouldn't be introducing extra traffic into this scenario. I don't know how else to put it. There are times when it can be accommodating, but I think, especially in the last couple of years, we've seen a lot of these incidents where it just would have been better if you weren't here. That's not all the time. And trust me, I can say this without any reservation. I am one of the most accommodating controllers in the building, but there is a time and a place. Sometimes you just shouldn't be in a place. I'll add one last thing to that. The way you deliver that no or that SWAT in this case is an important detail. Controllers, if you're listening, I know there's far more pilots that listen to us talk about this than controllers. Take a deep breath sometimes. Before you're about to say no to somebody, try to do it like it's somebody you want to meet and be friends with. Be a little respectful. Be nice. You don't have to be a jerk to make a point. Yeah. And that goes a long way with the receiving pilot, the way you treat them, the way you talk to them, the way you make them feel like they're interacting. They think they're doing all the right things. And here you are. You have a choice. You can be a jerk and tell them to go away. You can ignore them or you can say, hey, I can't do that right now. Here's what configuration we're in. I need to take you around. Just give them maybe a little bit of reasoning on why you're doing something. Try to be nice. It's not that hard to be nice. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Thank you, Julie Golf and thank you for supporting the show. We do our best to respond to support our feedback and let you know when you'll be on an upcoming show. Hey, G, anything to add before the chat? I do not. Closing out, episode 435 of Opposing Bases Air Traffic Talk. Romeo Hotel. And Alpha Golf. Goodbye, everyone. Drop. Opposing Bases is a listener-supported, ad-free weekly podcast. The views expressed on the show do not reflect the opinions or official positions of the FAA or Penguin Airlines. Episodes are for entertainment purposes only and are not intended to replace flight instruction. To get on-time access, bonus content, and full archive access, join the crew at opposingbases.supercast.com. Yeah, drop.