What is a dissident? In an autocracy, the line is brightly drawn. The ruling authority is unjust. The people have no legitimate voice in their destiny or that of the nation. Standing against the rulers could mean harassment, prison, torture, even death. Dissidents stand up anyway. If that is too long a definition, here is another one. A dissident is Masi Alinajad. She is my friend and the guest in today's episode. Her brave stand for women's rights against the Islamic Republic of Iran has led to her exile in the United States, but it has not ended her fight. Nor has distance made her safe. She was targeted for assassination at her Brooklyn home, but there would be killers who were captured and recently convicted in the New York City Court. Her story teaches us to value what we have and to never take our rights or our safety for granted. From the Atlantic, this is Autocracy in America. I am Gary Kasparov. Since the Cold War ended and was it the category of good and evil contrasts it contained, many people lucky enough to have been born in a free country, especially America, have begun to forget how lucky they are. Of course, many Americans have started thinking about their freedoms a lot these days, but not for the reasons I would have hoped. Many Americans have seen with their own eyes some of the early warning signs that dissidents in unfree countries know too well. I have always believed that if you stop caring about freedom everywhere, you won't have it at home for long. The moral relativism of the post-Cold War era has come home to rust. So it's time to organize and time to fight. And there's no one who can inspire and teach us how to do those things better than Massey Alinejad. Hello Massey, so good to see you. Always good to see you, Gary. You're my brother-in-arms. You're my sister-in-arms. So where do we start? There's so much I want to talk to you about. Okay. My late friend and ally Boris Nemtsov, former deputy prime minister of Russia at one point, considered to be a Yeltsin successor, when we worked in the opposition trying to stop Putin's dictatorship, used to say that in the absence of democratic procedures when you live in the authoritarian regime, the only way to measure the effectiveness of your work is how the regime responds to it. And judging by the response of Iranian dictatorship, religious dictatorship, to you, assassination attempts, kidnapping attempt, I mean it seems you are number one on their hit list, enemy number one of Iranian movers. So how come that the regime that every day, every hour demonstrates contempt for women is so much more than what I'm so afraid of you? To be honest, it's a badge of honor. Gary, I was on the phone with you when actually the guy with AK-47 came in front of my house in Brooklyn. We were on a Zoom meeting with our friend, Yopoldo Lopez, and it was a very tense meeting, if you remember. So I didn't open the door. So basically you saved my life. I could have been dead. The regime, whatever I do, it made them mad and very angry with me, and they hate me so much that they really want to get rid of me. Sometimes I say to myself that does it worse? Like first kidnapping plot, and then the guy got arrested with AK-47, and I thought it's done. That's it. And then two more men, a few days after presidential election here at the United States of America, got arrested. But think about it. No, I'm thinking about it, but our listeners should understand. So why so serious? Why you? Why these dictators are so scared of dissidents that have nothing but Instagram, TwitterX, and just the power of war? That's a very good question, but I think we should not downplay the power of women in Iran. Yes, of course, there are three pillars that the Islamic Republic, based on three pillars, death to America, death to Israel, and the third pillar is women. So I strongly believe the reason that they really hate me and they want to kill me, it's because I know how to mobilize women. So I remember the day when I started my campaign against compulsory veiling, I was like myself shocked how I got bombarded by women, young women inside Iran, sending me videos of themselves walking unveiled, which is a punishable crime, Gary. It's like if you walk unveiled, you get fined, you get lashes, you get killed, but women were practicing their civil disobedience. So it was not just about a small piece of cloth. When women can say no to those who control their body, these women can say no to dictators and that is scarce the regime because right after the Islamic Revolution, so the Islamic Republic actually forced the whole half of the population to cover themselves. Why? Because compulsory veiling is the main symbol of religious dictatorship. We women are forced to carry their ideology. If we say no, no longer we're going to carry your ideology, of course they hate us. Okay, let's go a bit deeper in history. So let's start with you and Iran. You had been working in Iran and you were critical regime. I was a parliamentary journalist. I got kicked out from Iranian parliament just because of exposing their pay slips, their salary. Okay, fine. So when did you leave Iran? 2009, the presidential election happened, the controversial presidential election. They stole the... You called it controversial? It was, actually I call it selection, Gary. We don't have election in any authoritarian regimes at all. I do know that. Yeah, it was a selection. But at the same time, I had hope. I have to confess that I had hope that this regime can be reformed. So millions of Iranians, they had hope that we can reform the regime. So we tried by voting, by voting, by voting for so-called reformists. So-called reformists. We tried that. We tried that many times. It didn't work. And that's why I mean, me and many people who believed in reform, green movement, they left Iran. So there was the election and the... They stole the election. It seemed that the reformer won and then it was, they call it green revolution, but the world ignored it. President Obama turned the blind eye on it. Not only that. President Obama found an opportunity that, wow, the regime is weak so then he could get a deal from the Ayatollahs. And guess what? Right? I'd never forget the time when people were chanting Obama, Obama, you either with us or with them. You know why, Gary? Because Obama in Persian means he is with us. Who means he? Ba means with us. I know. So you left Iran because I also remember when I left Russia and decided not to come back because I was already part of this ongoing criminal investigation about political activities. What's happened with you 2009? Any specific reason? Of course you were treated with at least suspicion by the Mullahs and by their henchmen. But anything else happened in 2009 so that you sensed it's time to leave? In 2009, Gary, I didn't make decision to leave my country. I came here to do an interview with President Obama. When I came here, the green movement happened and the administration got cold feet because they told me if they give the interview to me, I was working for the reformist newspaper which belonged to one of the presidential challenger. So they thought that because we're supporting the green movement, if they give me the interview, the US will send a signal to the regime in Iran that the United States of America is supporting the green movement. You tell me what is wrong if a democratic country supports pro-democracy movement. It's such an easy way to send a subtle signal without a direct offer of support to the movement by just giving an interview and they just turn you down. Basically Obama ruined my life because I was here. I couldn't get the interview and I didn't know what to do. Nothing. I couldn't go back because the Iranian regime shut down the newspaper that I worked for. They arrested thousands of innocent protesters. They killed more than 100 innocent people in green movement and I was telling President Obama if I get the interview, I'm going to go back because they're not going to touch me because the US government is going to actually put pressure on them but I didn't get the interview. I mean, my heart was broken because I think there was nothing wrong by sending a signal to the regime, by giving interview to a pro-democracy journalist and saying that yes, we proudly support the green movement. We proudly support innocent people of Iran. After I think eight years, I saw six years, I saw Hillary Clinton in a party and I kind of grilled her and I said I'm here because Obama's administration never accepted to give me the interview now. I lost my country. I have stuck here in America and I said that basically I don't want you to help us or to save Iranians. I want you to at least stop saving the Islamic Republic. That was my point and what happened, Hillary Clinton, I have to give her the credit. She actually went public. After that, she said that big regret, the Obama's administration should have supported there. Obama recently, after the 2022 uprising, Woman, Life, Freedom, President Obama himself said big regret. But in what cost? A lot of people got killed. After 10 years, President Obama said yes, we should have supported the green movement. It is beyond sad that leaders of free world do not understand that they have to stick with their principle instead of just empty condemnations or empty words of solidarity or supporting, they have to put principle into actions. I'm a bit hesitant asking you this very tough question because it's all serious, very close to my heart. When I left, I decided not to come back to Russia to face imminent arrest. I didn't think that it would be for such a long period. Now it's indefinite. I'm not sure I would ever be able to come back. I still hope that I'm young enough just to see the change in Russia. But it was you. It's not 12 years, 16 years. So when did you leave or when you decided not to come back? When you realized that you know that this return to Iran would be a dream and just an instant arrest or worse. So what did you feel? Sometimes I really feel miserable, Gary. You're my brother and I have to admit that I'm an emotional person. I know that. So you're on the good company. Yeah. And sometimes I think that just because having a different opinion, wanting democracy, dignity, freedom, I have to pay such huge price of not hogging my mother. You still have family there. Yeah. My mom lives in a small village. She doesn't even know how to use social media. So my brothers or my family, when they go there to visit her, this is just an opportunity. I can talk to her. But guess what? Now talking to me is a crime. The Iranian regime created a law under my name. If anyone send videos to Masih Al-Inijad or talk to Masih Al-Inijad, we'll be charged up to 10 years prison. So they interrogated my mother for the crime of sharing her love with me. And now my mom cannot talk to me. And now my brother, like my family should be careful if they talk to me, they have to pay huge price. You see, I have family, but it's like I don't have them. Why? Because I want freedom, because I want democracy. And that's my crime. Sometimes I think that I won't be even able to hog my mother. I forget their faces. I want to hog them. I want to touch my mom's face, my father's face. And guess what, Gary? Because of all these because of all these, it's not easy to handle them. So I planted trees in my Brooklyn garden to honor my mother, to honor my father. So I named a cherry blossom tree after my mom's name in my Brooklyn garden. And now I'm not even able to see those cherry blossom trees because I had to move. I mean, in three years, the FBI moved me more than 21 times. Dictators first forced me to live with my mom and now being away from my cherry blossom mother. It was a beautiful tree. My father, so because he, you know, he disagreed with my ideas, I planted a peach tree and I put it in the backyard garden. I don't want to see you, but be there because I love you. You just said that your father disagreed with you. So you have your family, not on one side, it's split. Yeah, it's like Iran. You know, on the map, we have one country, Islamic Republic of Iran, but in reality, we really have two Iran. It's like we are banned from going to stadium. Women are banned from dancing. Women are banned from singing, Gary, from singing. So women and men are banned from having mixed party. So we are banned from a lot of things by the Ayatollahs. Yeah. So but Iranians are brave enough to practice their civil disobedience, to create their own Iran. So I try to give voice to the real Iran, trying to show the rest of the world that this is a barbaric regime. When you go to my social media, you see the true face of Iranian women, brave people of Iran. You see the face of mothers whose children got killed, but they bravely shared their stories. I never forget the day when the head of the Revolutionary Court created a law saying that anyone sent videos to Masih would be charged up to 10 years prison. So I shared this video because I wanted to let my people know about the risk. Guess what, Gary? I was bombarded by videos. This time from mothers whose children got killed by the regime, walking on the same street that their children got killed, holding the picture and saying, hi Masih, this is the picture of my son and I am in the street where my son got killed. I rather go to prison, but not be quiet, be my voice. This is the Iran that I'm proud of. So these women are like women of suffragists, like, you know, like women, like Rosa Parks of my country. So that's why I use my social media to echo their voices, to continue my fight against the Islamic Republic. As I told you, they kicked me out from Iran, but they couldn't kick me out, like my mind, my heart, my soul, my thoughts are there and I'm still fighting with them. We'll be right back. Attention. Attention, rail travelers, platform paces, window gazers and arm rest negotiators. Have you heard? The big rail fare freeze is here. Railfares have been frozen across England until March 2027 on standard class tickets, including off-peak, anytime and season tickets. For more information, visit nationalrail.co.uk slash fares freeze. Season C's and exclusions apply. You mentioned Rosa Parks. Yeah, one of the heroes of human rights movements, all Americans who wanted to fight for equal rights for their compatriots, no matter the religious, racial or ethnic differences. But that's, I think, where we can lose our audience here and Americans, because they always try to see that it's through the same lens. Yes, yes, it's heroic, yes, it's difficult and look what we did. We should explain to them that it's not the same, because all the levels of power that on the other side, we have no courts can actually save us in Russia or in Iran or Venezuela. So facing the obstacles in our part of the world is very different, facing the obstacles in the free world, whether it's 60 years ago or now. But you know, this kind of hypocrisy, I think it's just, yeah, I know, yes, I look at the smile on your face, yes, of course you know that, but I think it's very important for people to understand. While we all can appreciate the activities of MeToo, yes, there are many things that you can write the wrongs. But this is not the same as women's situation in Iran or even worse, in Afghanistan. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about, you know, this is very different treatment of human rights in the United States or European democracies versus the rest of the world, where somehow we hear, even from those who are fighting for, you know, publicly here for the values of equality, just racial equality, gender equality, whatever. But somehow they become very shy talking about Iran, Afghanistan or other dictatorships, and they even talk about some kind of, oh, it's just their culture. Answer them. You called it hypocrisy. I'm trying to be diplomatic. I'm a host of the show. I call it absolutely betrayal, not only to human rights and women's right values, but also it's a betrayal to their own sisters in Afghanistan, in Iran. Let me just tell you why I call that the biggest enemy of the women in Iran and Afghanistan, unfortunately, are the Western feminists. And I'm telling you why. I'm telling you why. When I was fighting against compulsory veiling in America, when I launched my campaign against compulsory hijab, when I came to America, I saw women's march taking place in America. I was so excited when people here were chanting my body, my choice, and I was marching with them, oh, Gary, you have to see my video. I was so excited putting a headscarf on a stick and chanting my body, my choice. People were replying, her body, her choice. And I thought this is the America I called my friend in Iran. And I said, this is the first time I'm demonstrating. I'm protesting. No one killing me. No one arresting me. It was shocking for me that looking around the police. Police is protecting me. Protecting me to chant my body, my choice. I got arrested by morality police in my country. I was imprisoned by police in my country. I was beaten up by morality police in my country. When I was pregnant, I got arrested and I was in prison. So when seeing the police in America protecting me, chanting my body, my choice, I was crying out of joy. I reached out to the same women's march people. And I said to them, now it's time to support the women of Iran to fight against the Islamic Republic, the Ayatollahs, and Iranian women say no to force a job. They all were like, shh, I was being labeled that I caused Islamophobia. Why? Because they always say that that's your culture. Cultural relativism became a tool, an excuse in their hand to support the Ayatollahs to oppress women more. I'm saying that using all these narratives to actually sending a signal to Islamic Republic that whatever you do, we don't care. So what breaks my heart when Boko Haram actually gets... Let's clarify. Boko Haram is an Islamic terrorist organization in Nigeria that had a very bloody record of prosecuting Christians in the country. And of course, their first target is girls. Exactly. What happened? Michelle Obama and Oprah, Hillary Clinton, a lot of Western feminists supported a campaign, bring our girls back. Be beautiful. Where are they? Where are the Western feminists? Why there is no women's march for women of Afghanistan? The situation of women in Afghanistan is exactly like the Handmaid's Tale, which is a fiction. People in the West buying popcorn, sitting on their sofa, watching the Handmaid's Tale. Fiction. Your fiction is our reality. It is happening right now. The apartheid against women is happening. But when this is in the Handmaid's Tale, it's a bunch of white women. So being denied their rights, being raped, forced to bring children, all wearing the same dress code. This is the situation in Iran. This is the situation in Afghanistan. So for me, when I don't see women's march in university campuses here, college campus here, I'm like, this is hypocrisy. And when it comes to have policy against terrorism, one day Obama's administration comes and go, and then Biden administration comes and go, Trump administration comes and go, and they undo all the policy of the other president. They don't understand that when it comes to terrorism, America should have only one policy. Believe me, the Islamic Republic, they don't care whether Trump is in power or Biden is in power. They don't care about left and right wing. They hate America. They hate American values. And that is what is missing, that American government do not understand that. They don't have one policy to end terrorism. That's why, Gary, I think Americans should understand when it comes to end terrorism, it's like, as the public is like a cancer. If you don't end cancer, cancer will end you. You don't negotiate with cancer. You cut it off. Yes, I agree. That's what I've been saying about Putin. You enjoy the certain protection offered by American law, and those who tried to kill you and to kidnap you, they faced American law and they have been convicted. America defended you, and America forced them just to receive the price they deserved. So you were in the court in the courtroom. You looked straight in the eyes. I faced my would-be assassins. I looked into their eyes. I'm not saying that it was not as scary, Gary. I was bombarded by different feelings, different emotional looking into their eyes. You were trembling. I was crying back door in the arm of the FBI agents who were protecting me. But immediately when I walked into the room, when I saw there was a female judge, I was like, this is what we are fighting in. I'm emotional. This is what we are fighting in Iran, having female judge in America, having the law enforcement sitting there supporting me. I saw my friends, all human rights activists. I saw my neighbors, Gary, my neighbors from Brooklyn. And I was like, how lucky I am. This is what the Iranian people want to have, justice. This is the beauty of America. And I felt the power to look into their eyes and testify against the killers. Now, having all these experiences, do you think that America is in any danger of sliding into the authoritarian direction? Do you think that Americans take this freedom for granted? Because you have plenty of experience, you know, both as an American citizen, as one of the leaders of the global disdain movement. So is America is facing the real challenge of fundamental freedoms that Americans enjoyed over generations for 250 years? They could be somehow in jeopardy. Of course, democracy is far-eyed. I want Americans to understand that when you take freedom for granted, democracy for granted, when you take, like, you know, everything for granted, think about it, that the authoritarian regimes are not going to just stay there. They're coming from different geography, different ideology. They're not from communism to Islamism. But they have one thing in common, crushing democracy, hating America. And all the authoritarian regimes, Gary, you know better than me. They work together. They cooperate together. Why? Because they know how to support each other. They know how to back each other. But here in America, Republican and Democrats, when it comes to support the national security of America, in the face of terrorism, they're not together. So when they are not united, believe me, dictators will get united and they will end democracy. Now it's time to talk about, you know, our joint efforts to create the global disdain organization. And now it's the World Liberty Congress and you are the president, elected president, by the way. As a woman, I cannot even choose my dress code in Iran. Yeah, exactly. So let's talk about it, about the concept, because we talked about human rights abuses in Iran, Afghanistan, briefly mentioned Russia and other places. So you talked very passionately about the dictators working together, Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. They work together, not just in the United Nations. Talk to our Ukrainian friends and they tell you they are working together, helping Putin to conduct this criminal genocidal war in Ukraine. The free world is, I wouldn't say disunited, but definitely is not united as it had to be. So we try to bring together dissidents who saw it, you know, just with their eyes, you know, who suffered from these power abuses, whether it's in Africa, it's Middle East, in Latin America, it's in Asia, it's Eastern Europe, Russia, Belarus, Central Asia. Unfortunately, there are too many countries that just are now leaving now under some kind of authoritarian or totalitarian rule. So we created this organization and we want to have a powerful message of these combined forces of people who otherwise, you know, had very little in common, but recognizing that it's time for us to have, it's like a dissidents international to do what? I'm sure you're not going to like that, but the only thing that we should learn from dictators is unity, because you said that they are united. So our organization is trying to actually teach the leaders of democracies that they have to be as united as dictators and work together when it comes to end authoritarianism, which is, as you said, increasing every year. And we had our first general assembly in Lithuania. These are the true dissidents who survived assassination plot, leading movement within their own country in Africa, all over the authoritarian regimes. So we need to get together and bring the wall of dictatorship down. Otherwise, democracy is going to go in recession forever. So I want to invite everyone to actually learn about what they were Congress and our joint efforts and understand that this is the time to support the dissidents who are warning the rest of the world that dictators are expanding their ideology everywhere in democracies as well. Yes. So of course, I have to mention Annepol Baume who started this concept, Autocracy in America. She talked about it in a very scientific way. So obviously you are offering more emotional, actually first-hand experience. First-hand experience, not emotional. Let me tell you something. The guy who was trying to kill me was from Russia, Russian mobster. And the kidnapping plot as the FBI, you know, foiled it. Exactly. When you read the indictment, they say that they were trying to take me from Brooklyn to Venezuela. Why Venezuela? It's a part of the same network. Exactly. So that actually shows you this network from Russia, Iran, Venezuela, China, North Korea. They're not only supporting each other, like, you know, sharing technology surveillance within their own authoritarian regime to oppress and suppress uprising. They also using this for transnational repression beyond their own borders in democratic countries. That should be an alarm for everyone. But we can hardly expect western democracies, especially the United States now and Donald Trump's leadership, to incorporate dissidents' concerns, human rights issues into any negotiations. So, I mean, he spoke to Vladimir Putin just a number of times and never heard them talking about human rights. So if they don't care about human rights, I think national security is important for them, no? National security is under threats, serious threats. I am talking about real assassination plot taking place on US soil. If anyone can come to America and target me, next can be anyone who is now listening to me. Let's summarize. In the era of globalization, democracy cannot survive somewhere without, you know, being protected elsewhere. So everything is interdependent. It's all connected, correct? So what is our message? The World Liberty Congress brought together hundreds and hundreds of dissidents, because we understand that the world now it's, it's now it's on one of the most critical stages of the never-ending war between forces of freedom and tyranny. And this war, of course, it has front lines, like in Ukraine, for instance, but it goes across the globe. And this war also has its invisible borders inside the United States, inside Europe, so inside democratic countries. And here, our experience, our understanding of the nature of this war is invaluable. And people should listen to us and eliminating human rights or accepting the equality of people from every region of the planet for just that they're entitled for the same rights as Americans or Canadians or Brits or French or Germans is going to harm democratic institutions in this very countries. Your last word. My last word. Let's not be... Last word today, of course, because we hear a lot from you. Some people in America are allergic to regime change. To the words of regime change. To the expression of regime change. I am only allergic to dictators. And that's how it should be. Don't give diplomatic titles to terrorists. Let's call them who they are. Don't give diplomatic titles to dictators. They are dictators. So that's my message. Very simple. Hashtag diplomacy is not going to save the lives of women in Iran, in Afghanistan, the lives of those people living on their authoritarian regimes in Africa, in Latin America, Asia, Eastern Europe. No. We need actions. We need the real solidarity and don't abandon those who are protecting democracy, who are fighting for freedom, who are trying to guarantee global security across the globe. I love America. I love Iran. And I've been given second life by the law enforcement. Gary, this is very ironic. A girl who was forced to shout death to America. The country that I wished death for united the state of America gave me a second life. And that's why I love America. And I want to dedicate my life to fight for America as well, to protect America from terrorists, from authoritarianism. And that's why I am full of hope and energy. When Masiya and I spoke, it was before the United States and Israel attacked Iran. So we follow up with Masiya to ask her what she made of the strikes and what they might mean in the battle against the Iranian regime and the broader fight against autocracy. Here is what she had to say. To be honest, I am in touch with many Iranians and they are happy when it comes to see the end of their killers, the commanders, the Revolutionary Guard members. So that made Iranian people happy. But at the same time, ordinary people got killed. And that's the people of Iran paying the huge price. And what breaks my heart more, that now people are being left alone with a wounded regime, with trying to get revenge on its own people. So yes, I kept hearing in the West, let's end the war. Anti-war activists took to the street. And I was like, it is not that difficult for you to say that. And when now I see that all those anti-war activists, they just finished their job, no more talking about another war being waged on Iranian innocent women, people facing executions right now, it is beyond sad. That's all I can say, that we only see peace and security in the region, across the globe, if we really say no to Islamic Republic. If you ask Iranians, they have only one message to you. The real war mongers are the Islamic Republic officials inside the country. And that's why when we say no to war, we really mean no to Islamic Republic. This episode of Photocracy in America was produced by Erlene Aurevalo and Natalie Brennan. Our editor is Dave Shaw, original music and mix by Rob Smersiak, fact checking by Anna Alvarado. Special thanks to Polina Kasparov and Meg Ringert. Claude Nabeit is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio. Andre Waldes is our managing editor. Next time on Autocracy in America. This virus of isolationism, which isn't a coherent ideology itself, it's a knee-jerk reaction to the external world, can go through a long period of being irrelevant and then suddenly reappear. And I attribute this in part to a failure in both political parties ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. I'm Gary Kasparov. See you back here next week.
