Hold Space for Grief with Anderson Cooper

The only connection to the Vanderbilt's I had as a kid, my dad once took me to Grand Central Station, which was founded by Chalmador Kermillie's Vanderbilt, who was not a nice guy. And there's a statue of him outside Grand Central Station, which by the way he paid for and had made and set up there. And it wasn't like his workers loved him and he did. Right. It was his. And he made photographs. He had paintings painted himself and gave them out to all his children, not that they wanted them either. But I remember my dad taking me to see this statue when I was like six. And the only thing I took away from it was that grandparents turned into statues when they die, which is very relatable. I know everybody feels this. This episode is brought to you by Rivlin. Mish! Hi Craig Robinson. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? I'm fine. I'm having such a good time out here in LA. Yeah. We've got some company with you. This trip. So this trip, Aaron, our youngest, our fourth is here and Kelly Robinson made him. Yes. Kelly, Kelly. Give it up for us. You made new parents. Kelly, let me walkie to be here. Kelly in the house. Kelly's known to the whole staff only by her emails. Kelly's emails are infamous. Kelly, this is what I love about my sister and off. Details. You know, there is no detail, which is why I don't communicate with you. You have no information. You give nothing. If I want to know what's going on, I'm like, excuse me, Kelly. Tell me what's happening in your life. And I will get the run down. Your wife is like, I tell her, she's, you know, I'd hire her. In a minute, as a chief of set to run anything, any office, any project, she, yeah, she will love this because you know, we, we are Aaron and I have been staying in our Airbnb, which has been terrific. We have a normal life while you're away for a week breakfast this morning. Would you make so we is in Aaron and I. Oh, Aaron and I. So we boiled eggs last night. So we get out of our, you know, it's all he says he. I'm breakfast like everybody here. No, I haven't got breakfast and he boils to me. I haven't gotten to the. Okay. We had to fix some other things to go with the eggs. And don't say. Don't say toast and fruit and Aaron made himself waffles. Oh, now that's frozen. Oh, well, in the toaster. Okay. All right. But you had. We're too bad to. Too bad to live in life in your Airbnb. We're living life and so. Did you have to rent a car this time? No, no, we, we haven't, but Kelly, of course, rented a car because she figured out that that was cheaper than taking Uber. So. And that's the other thing about Kelly, not a penny wasted, not a penny. It's like, yeah, she knows the cost of Uber. She's probably she's calculated all the Uber trips that we're going to be taking in this trip and decide it. We're renting. We're renting a car. It's better. Yeah. But if we could rent a car that we wanted, I would have rented a Rivian. You know, they're, they're sleek and clean. And Kelly's just now starting to drive the Rivian. Are you now? Is she Kelly's Kelly's getting in on the Rivian action? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Our listeners, as they know, Rivian gifted both of us cars this past year and we've had to fund driving them. Well, we've got a great, great show, great guest. Yes. Someone who so many of us know he's been in our living rooms for good or bad. Yeah. Yeah. For most of our lives doing the hard work of telling us what's going on in the world. Anderson Cooper is with us today. Yes. Yes. And the anchor of CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 host of the whole story with Anderson Cooper Cooper and the popular grief focused podcast. All there is with Anderson Cooper. And I'm really interested to talk to him about that. He is also a regular correspondent for CBS's 60 Minutes, which is on in the Robinson House Hold every Sunday right before we watch the evening football game. And he's a New York Times best seller. So without further ado, Anderson, come on out. Anderson Cooper, how are you sir? Welcome to Animal. Thank you for coming. Welcome, Tom. Thank you very much. Great to see you. Thank you. We're going to dress the same colors. I'm not sure that you know you all need me giving your fashion sense. I say, it's a little alarming. Actually, that's good. You guys look cute. This is this is very close. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Nobody has ever said that. No one has said no one ever. Well, it's great to have you. I would just say you've spent some time with my husband a little bit. Yeah, I actually saw you. I didn't interview with your husband in Ghana. And you were there. I think with your kids at the last door that enslaved people. Oh, yeah. That was first term. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. Incredible experience. Yeah. You've been busy in the meantime. It's, yeah, it's been a little busy. Well, let's get right back to it. Why would you do a grief podcast? You know, it started. My mom died in 2019. She was 95. And she was the last person left from my family. My brother had died by suicide when I was 21. He killed himself in front of my mom and my dad had died when I was 10. I was a heart attack. And so grief had, I mean, I'd kind of known loss early on. But so my mom was the last and I was kind of, you know, I was prepared for it. She lives in extraordinary life and we were very close. But I suddenly found myself going through all the things that she had left behind, which is a process. All of us will go through it sometime in our life, unfortunately. And turned out to be also all my dad's things and all my brothers' things, which my mom could never go through. She could never bring herself. So, I found it to be such a lonely and overwhelming experience of, I didn't know. I mean, I hadn't heard people talk about it. I obviously knew it as an intellectual concept. This is something that happens. But my mom saved everything and I just, the way I deal with things is I tend to kind of narrate them from a distance in my head. And I just started recording stuff on my phone. And then I thought it's weird that there's not more stuff out there about this process that is so universal. And I'd never actually, I mean, I'd only listen to one podcast. I wasn't a big podcast listener. I didn't really know what I was doing. But I just started talking to people because I needed help and figuring out, how do you do this? And it's been an extraordinary evolution since then. I, yeah, it's been amazing. Wow. Wow. Well, you've had a pretty interesting childhood. I just recently watched a documentary about your family, mother's history. Yeah. I think that documentary for HBS, I mean, I mean, that was, it, it, she was an amazing. She was cool. She was cool. Yeah, my mom was Gloria Vanderbilt and she was kind of in some ways larger than life. And, but she lived this extraordinary life of very early loss and this kind of crazy childhood she had and never really feeling, she felt like a changeling most of her life. And we, yeah, so I was very glad that I was able to put together this documentary for HBO called Nothing Left Unsaid. And for me, it was really important that I felt like with my brother and my dad, there was so much left unsaid because I was so young when they died. And when my mom, actually when my mom reached the age of 91, she wrote this really funny text about being 91 and yet feeling like 17. And I, it just kind of clicked in my head of like, you know, I, I want to engage with her in a real conversation for the next year of her life. And you know, because I think so often we, we know our parents as our parent, we don't naturally know them as a human being. And it's only after where we kind of realize, oh, wow, there's all this stuff we don't know about them. So, I asked my mom if she would like have this intentional conversation with me for a year, which she was thrilled about because I meant I would be talking to her a lot. And we did it over email and phone and we ended up making to a book called Nothing Left. The rainbow comes and goes and then we made this documentary called Nothing Left Unsaid. And it was really important to me that when she died, she knew me and I knew her. And there was nothing left unsaid between us. There was no, you know, there were no secrets. There were no things. I wish I had said that. We had said it all and it was really extraordinary. And what was the thing that you found out about your mom as a human being that surprised you the most? Well, I had known, I mean, as a kid, I was very concerned about stability and my mom, my mom was an amazing person, but she was not very parental and my dad had died and I very much wanted to know what was happening. And I used to read my mom's journal, I used to monitor her phone calls when I was a kid. I wanted to know what was coming down the pipe. And I started working when I was 12 to earn money because I was very concerned about like my mom's on shaky financial footing. And even though the world probably thought she was super rich, but she, you know, spent a lot of money and I had no sense of money. And I knew this from a little kid and I remember I was actually walking up the stairs one day and my mom was on the phone and she said, she started on the money and the phone. She said, well, I'll always be able to make money. And I stopped and I was like, this ship is going down. And if she thinks she's always going to be able to do this, like, and how were you when you heard that? I was like 12. You knew. Yeah, I knew. I knew early on. Were you the oldest? No, I was the, I was the youngest. My brother was two years older, but he wasn't as like focused on this as much as I was. I was really determined. And yeah, I started, I mean, it was ridiculous. I started working as a child model at 12 to help help help. To help family. I mean, not that they, you know, I wasn't, I was saving the money because I was like, I'm going to need to, I'm going to, I'm building a life raft here. But, but she was remarkable. And, and, you know, I was always very sympathetic to my mom because she really didn't have parents of her own. She was kind of her dad died when she was an infant. She was raised in hotels in Europe by her mom and just wanted to party. She was a subject of a, of a vicious custody battle when she was 10 years old. It was called the trial of the century in the depression. And you know, I kind of saw a sadness behind my mom's eyes for whole life. And I, I didn't understand what the sadness was from, but I was sympathetic to her. And so even if she wasn't the most kind of mom, mom, she, she was incredible. I viewed her as a, I mean, from the time I was little, I viewed her as like a, a space alien whose rocket ship had had like, you know, failed. And landed here on earth by accident. And it was my job to like, help her like rent an apartment and learn how to breathe oxygen. Yeah. That's, that's a level of worry that most young people, yeah, but look who's talking. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know that I know that I make a spends spends spends spends spends spends spends spends He was going to be you. That's interesting. Like if things fell apart, if our dad ever could never function, then Craig was the one who was going to make sure. That seems to be it, because the title of this book, my mom and I wrote together, which ended up basically our correspondence over the course of the year, was the rainbow comes and goes, which is from a Wordsworth poem, and it was a poem my mom liked. And for her, it meant, well, the rainbow comes and goes. It's always going to come back. And so like, right days are just ahead. They're just around the corner. The phone can ring and your whole life can change. And for me, the title was like, yeah, the rainbow comes and it goes. And it's tall. And yeah, the phone can ring and your whole freaking life can change. It's like, I saw from a negative light. And she saw it. She like could not, it was such an interesting kind of different way of realistic. You just try to be realistic. Yes. Just cover all the bases in case something happens. It's a fine line between realistic and pessimistic. That's right. I think you two fell on the pessimistic side. Some are in theistic family. Do you think that your mom, did she know that you were kind of the backup child? She did. Yeah, she did. She knew, I didn't really know my mom so well. My dad was such a present dad. And she didn't really know how to be a parent. She loved watching him, being a father. And she'd never had a father. And so when my dad died, it was something like, who's this person I'm with? Like, I got to get to know her. And I had a nanny who was my mom and my mom hated her because of that. But my mom knew she could feel how attentive and I mean, I was there. I was always the one she would sort of call and it's funny. She would call and I would have to steal, I would steal myself like, okay, who is she killed now? Who's body do I got a very low? No. She'd be like, I'd really like you to come over. And finally I'd go over and one time, nine out of ten times it was because she had redecorated something and wanted to show me. One time she, I started going out to a guy who's now the co-parent of my child and we'd moved into a place together and she'd seen the place and then she called me. She was like, honey, there's something I'd like to talk about. And she just dropped this a couple of days in a row. I finally went over and I was like, okay, what is it? And she's like, you know, when you love something, somebody you sometimes do things you wouldn't or narrowly do. I was like, what are you talking about mom? He's dead in the basement. No, and she was like, I'm talking about the taxidermy. And there was a taxidermy, this guy had some taxidermy. And she was like, you know, it's just too much. The taxidermy. I was like, this is what has been working all week about you've dragged me here. It's good for me about. I don't know. I mean, she wasn't wrong. Well, with your father being, you know, the way you describe your father, I mean, he sound sounded like a wonderful man. He was your stability. He was your truth. He was your truth. He was your, you know, he made everything seem bright for a child. And this is what we also don't realize. I mean, that's all children want is stability. They don't need money. They need certainty, you know, it's like, I got a schedule. I know when I'm going to eat. I know when my dad leaves and comes back that he, you know, he does what he says. I need to go to sleep on time. I mean, all those things make for security. And your dad provided that to you for 10 years. And then he was gone relatively suddenly. Yeah, I mean, yeah, very quick. And essentially, I, because I used to think growing up like I had 10 years, I mean, I was so young and, but, but what I came to, one of the things I came to realize among many things is just, you know, what 10 years was enough. I mean, I wanted more. I wish I'd had more, but in 10 years, he was able to do, to give me that sense of this is what security feels like. And this is what love feels like. And that's, you know, again, I wish I had more, but it's, it's been extraordinary. It to suddenly realize, oh, you know what? Like it was enough. And, well, that's if it's done right. Yeah. Right? Because there are a lot of kids who have 10 years of parenting from somebody and it's not enough. Yeah. Right? And it's funny that you mentioned that because one of the, one of the reasons why I think I talk about death and mortality, probably more with my kids. And our mom always said this. I mean, it was funny as we were talking about, you know, briefing and prepping for, for you coming on, we realized we had different memories of how our parents talked about death. I was like, mom talked about it all the time. And you felt like she didn't talk about it at all. She didn't talk about it in the way that she's talking about it. She would always prepare us for her death. Like she's been dropping dead for 20 years. Right. Like, well, when I drop dead, you're going to have to do this, listen to this. And I think she, she looked at the two of us and tried to give each of us what we needed at the time because she did not talk to me about death. A lot. And she apparently talked to me a lot about it. Maybe me as a daughter, as a, as a mother. A mother. I think she wanted me to know throughout my life. She wanted to hand us our lives early. It, like you're responsible. You did this for yourself. My mom would always say and she would say this publicly, I didn't have anything to do with raising Michelle and Craig. You know, they always knew this. But I think she told herself that because there's some security in knowing that when you are gone as a parent, that your children are going to be okay. And I didn't understand that until I had kids. And I realized that's the scariest thing is not just losing them or something happening to them. It was something, it's something happening to me. And I, and my kids are going to go through life not feeling like they have what they need to get through. And I think my mom was constantly telling me, you're fine. You have common sense. You're already making decisions as a child. I think she was trying to tell me what you came to realize that if you know your parents' values in their core, you've seen them, you've experienced them. If there's a loss, you're going to be okay. Yeah. My dad wrote a book about two years before he died called Families. And it was a memoir about, he grew up kind of poor and Mississippi on a farm during the depression. And it was about the life of families then and the family that he was born into and the family that he created with my mom and my brother and me. And it's really a letter to my brother and me that he wrote, knowing there was a good chance that he would die. His dad had died at 50, his dad before that had died at 50. I've gone through my whole life thinking I would die at 50, I'm 58 now. And like, I realized I had this just, this crazy idea which a lot of people have if you lose a parent early on that you're going to die at the age of their parent died. Thankfully, there's advances in medicine. But it's really, it's such a blessing to have this book because it's, it's the family history and it's all these names of people and stories that never get told in history books of people who were, you know, poor farmers who gathered for family reunions and their stories don't get written up in the history books very often. But, you know, I know about my great uncle, Razberry who, you know, cried so much that people thought his bladder was just located too close to his eyeball. And all these kind of obscure, you know, characters that made up might be like the opera of my dad's childhood on this farm. In this next segment, I want to share some of our favorite family trips, the kinds that stick with you, shape you and remind you what really matters brought to you by our friends at Rivian built for the journeys that bring us closer together. So we went on a very limited amount of road trips when we were a little, what is the one that you remember the most? Well, it was the one that we, we took a road trip every summer. It was just the same road trip. Right. We went to Duke's happy holiday. There you go. In white cloud, Michigan. Yes, we did. And I don't know how long it was. It felt like we were driving to California. But when you're young, being in a car for longer than 15 minutes, I think I just lost track of time. I think it was, it was just under two hours. Right. But it felt like it was all that long. And we sort of planned for it like we were going cross country, you know, there were lunches packed, fried chicken sandwiches. And we all, we went with our cousins. Yes. So we were packed in that car probably in very unsafe ways. No seat belts, adults in the front, kids in the back, three adults in the front, four kids in the back. This is crazy. In a, in a few, a duos in a quarter. Groceries in the trunk. Because we like it. And we had to have luggage. I don't even know how we all fit in it. We like, we didn't have it. There weren't SUVs and we didn't have a station wagon. No. It was a two door, Buick electric 225. Yeah. But these were huge cars, huge sedans. The back seat literally could sit for kids. But it probably wasn't the safest way. Yeah, that was, that was one of the lessons we learned that. But that was, that's how it happened back in the day. People didn't use seat belts. No. They, you know, there wasn't, there weren't car seats. They're, you know, are all the adults smoked? They did. And they had smoked the entire car ride. Yeah. And we just sat in the back and endured. Well, you know, you know the trip that I'm reminded of. And I think you may have forgotten. Well, you're going to remember when I remind you, remind you was when you and I drove to South Carolina. Oh, yeah. When we were in college, we were in college. Yeah, we did. And I, we did a brother sister road trip. Brother sister road trip to visit our grandparents in Georgetown, South Carolina. And we rented a car. Was this spring break or was it just a short break? It was, it was spring break because that would have been the only time I could go. Yeah, because you had basketball. Yes. And I said, when we said, all right, let's go visit the grandparents. They'll be really surprised where we're going to surprise them. And it was a seven-ish hour drive. And although you had had your license for quite some time, I would not let you drive. And I was and am an excellent driver. You are a very good driver. But you were being very big brothers. Like, I got this, I got this. And I was like, you sure I can drive, you know? So I was the navigator, which it wasn't a huge navigational task. No, it was pretty much straight down that five. Straight down, 95. So I would always, I would ask throughout the trip. She would ask and you need a break. And I would say, no, I'm good. And then about four and a half hours in, I was so tired. You were loopy, you know? I got to the point where I finally said, okay, you can drive. It's like, yeah. And then thank goodness. I let you drive. And I think you were comforted because you were driving. And I was sleepy. And I wasn't falling asleep. Because I was watching you. I was like, he needs a break. Yes. So you went to sleep and I wanted to drive in the rest of the way there. But every 20 to 30 minutes, I would come up and be like, you okay? Is everything okay? And then I would go back to sleep. And I'm just like, my God, this dude. It was great. You were trying to be the big brother. But yeah, that was a fun trip. And we surprised our grandparents, which was fun. We felt like real adults. We felt like adults. We planned the trip. We got the car. We made it happen. Yeah. But you know, spending time with family is incredibly valuable. Making memories to last a lifetime. And Rivian is here to inspire families to adventure forever together. And if you've been listening to our show, you know, we have partnered with Rivian. Thanks a lot, folks, for providing us with your R1S. It's been such a treat having an all-electric seven-seat SUV that fits the whole family. We could have used that on our road trips. Oh, man. Could we? Oh. Let me tell you. And the thing we would have used the most would have been that large screen and navigation system. Because we were using a trip tick at the time and had to use maps back in the day. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We could have just used the space. Thanks again to our friends at Rivian. Learn more at Rivian.com. It's amazing to hear his voice. And actually, I just about maybe two months ago, got an email from somebody from Mississippi Public TV. And I've had no, I got a radio interview. My dad did about 10 years ago. That was first time I heard his voice. Because I have no recordings of him or anything. I had no moving images of him. And a lady from Mississippi Public Radio, an archivist found an old TV interview. My dad gave promoting this book. And she sent it to me. And for 20 minutes, I watched my dad sit there talking and moving. It was the first time I'd seen him moving. It was just incredible. What did that feel like? It was interesting. I mean, it was it brought back. It's so interesting. The cycles of history, the repeated families that we don't even know about. So like, my son is named Wyatt because my dad was named Wyatt. But I've recently just randomly started calling my son Buddy, which I've never called anybody in my whole life. I'm not like I do. You're not the buddy. Thanks for your time. I'm sorry. Not really. And I've been going through these things still. And I found all these letters that my dad's brothers and sisters sent him. They're all addressed to Buddy. And it turns out that was his name. That's how he was known back then. I mean, he wasn't Wyatt Cooper. He was Buddy Cooper. And you had never heard anyone call him that. I hadn't ever heard anybody call him Buddy. And I mean, maybe somebody as a kid said this to me, but I had no memory of it. And then watching this TV thing, my dad, like literally I had just been, I've got a place in the country. And there's a little stream on it. And I've been really liking my son and I like to clear all the leaves from the stream. And like get the stream moving. Yeah, that's a unique thing. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to do, you know. And, you know, it's very satisfying. You're out of nature and it's fun. And there's snakes jump out. Oh, yeah. That's great. It's like a blast. But my dad is on this TV show talking. And he suddenly says that he's like, well, I go with my sons into Central Park. And only we know about this little stream. And we spend a lot of time clearing the leaves from the stream. And I was just like, and then the memory came back to me. I'm like, oh my god, I remember doing this with my dad. And the fact that I'm doing these things with my son without even realizing it, I just find kind of extraordinary. So do you have any, any recollections of when your dad was alive? I do. Yeah, but they're not, you know, they're more like the memory of the softness of his stomach. When we were, I would lie on the floor with him watching television. My head was on a stomach or he was a writer. So I remember the sound of typewriter keys, you know, late at night, things like that. But there's a lot, they're very fragmentary. There's not, it's not. And it's been so hard for me to, it's only now that I've sort of started to remember more. Like I ran from, you know, at 10 years old, like I was so terrified by his death and just shocked and angry and filled with rage. And I just buried it. I just stuffed it all down. And when my brother died 10 years later, I stuffed that down too. And I propelled me into the world. And in some ways, it was a very effective strategy for a kid to, to have a rocket fuel of rage and anger and heartbreak. But what I've learned in doing this grief podcast and in actually going through the things is, I realized, I came to the realization about two years ago that about a year ago that I'd never agreed. And I had this realization when I stopped doing the podcast, I was like, this is too overwhelming. I can't do this. I've listened to a lot of these voicemails. And finally, one day I was like, oh, I'll start it. You know, maybe I'll just go back down the basement and start again. After a couple of months, I opened up a box and hadn't, I just randomly selected this box. And there were like a hundred of them in the basement. And it turned out to be a box of my dad's papers and a bunch of files, moldy and mildew. And I opened the first one up and there was an essay inside. He'd written, I looked at it, put my glasses on, and looked at the title and it was called the Importance of Grieving. And in it, he wrote about, and he quoted some psychologists, child psychologists about what happens to kids who don't grieve and how they go through their life or it can go through their life with sort of this melancholy they can never quite put their finger on. And I realized like, oh my god, that's me. That is what I've done my entire life. And that was for me the beginning of, okay, how do I turn to that little child? It's still buried deep inside me and who is the framework through which I see everything. And how do I start to grieve? And so that's why I keep doing this podcast. Well, that's the answer to the very first question. Right, yes, right. That's the long answer. No, but I mean, I've just I'm just picturing 10-year-old you. I mean, my heart breaks. So after having done this for a while and then turning it off and back on again, have you learned a strategy that is helpful for people to grieve or is it individualized? Because I got to tell you, I felt like we agree when our dad died, my mom was the type where okay, like, like Michoacan. Get up. Get up. Feel sorry today, maybe tomorrow, maybe a third day, but then after that, just get on up, whether you're whether you're finished grieving or not, get up, go to work, go do your thing. Is there a right wrong, is there a way to grieve? I certainly, you know, in the world, I certainly am no expert. And, you know, I ran from it. I buried it, but it doesn't go away. And it has stopped me from being able to, you know, I am wary all the time, which helps in my job at times, especially going to war zone and stuff, which is how I started my career. But it makes me, it keeps me distant from people. It keeps me, everything is a threat, everything is seen through the lens of this 10 year old boy who is still there. And why would you want to get close to somebody who could, who could hurt you? Well, die or die? Yeah, exactly. For me, the voice in my head is this voice that I developed to protect that little kid long ago. And it is telling all the signals that sends me are, hey, don't trust this person, you got to be wary about this. I'm not sure, but this, I read rooms like nobody's business. Any room I walk to, I clock everybody, even if I'm not looking at them, even it seems like I'm unaware. And it's exhausting. And it's not healthy. And so I've been trying to figure out as an adult is, how do you start to let go? Yeah, and also give room or space for grief. And like, you can hold it softly. And I want to, I don't under it be a sadness behind my eyes, like my mom had and that I saw it. And so it's, I'm highly motivated. And it's an incredible thing that there is, you know, it will still be painful, but that the wound is the root to the gift, it's only by allowing yourself to feel the sadness that you actually feel the joy and you feel them again, that my dad is alive inside me. I can feel even the little boy I was. And I talk to them. And our current culture is not helpful. I think it's strange that that society has set up that we no longer talk about grief. I mean, it wasn't always this way when my dad grew up in this, you know, the small town, Mississippi, everybody went to funerals every weekend. Like grief was a much more, it was something spoken about. People wore black. Even if you didn't know the person, you went to the funeral you brought, you know, food and my grandmother played piano at funeral. And my dad would go and his job was like the whole babies at funerals. And there was a, you know, there were, there was more of a commons of the soul. There was more of a community aspect to grief that that has been shunted aside as taboos changed. You know, it used to be you couldn't talk about sex, but death and grief you talked about it now, you can talk about sex, but you can't talk about grief. It's a weird shift. And, you know, and grief is a ritual. Yeah, we're losing a lot of ritual too. And, and bristles are so important, which I had never really thought about Francis Weller's, this writer I mentioned, he's a he does grief rituals. And he did a small ritual of, for it was about 200 people in this room. And there were bowls in each corner with stones. And you could take a stone and basically whisper the name of a loved one. And then you would put it in this bowl with water with all the other people's stones. And at the end, all the stones were collected. And I kind of was like, I don't know about this. It's kind of kind of cheesy, and in five minutes, I was like weeping over my stone. I mean, it was incredible. And I don't, like I'm trying not to be a person displays motion on public. But like they're all, I mean, it was, it was a beautiful like everybody was into this. And so I was like, all right, I'll go pick up a stone. And suddenly I'm like, I'm going to be the other stone. And I'm like, finally, they're like Anderson, enough of the stone. Like you got to get, move it along, kid. But it was incredible. It was really incredible. And I think there's tremendous power in that ritual and communal aspect of it. And respecting aging. We don't do it well. We don't, we don't celebrate the moving on into that stage, which should be beautiful of wisdom and knowledge. Where retirement is honored. We didn't have nursing homes and senior centers because families reincorporated. You didn't lose the elderly. They stayed with you. They became a part of the fixture. They played a critical role in not only the family unit, but the community unit. I think of just a crazy example when I was a young attorney and I was a first year and I've worked for a big law firm. They had like 34s in a building downtown. One day I got an assignment from a partner to take a memo over to one of the retired partners who still had an office. And I didn't even know this part of the firm existed. It was almost like this, this shadow system of law of firms. And they had everything that the regular office had, but it was older. It wasn't remodeled. There was an older receptionist. It was a quiet floor. And the offices were still set up. There were corner offices and I went and I found the person I gave the thing, but I left there feeling really creepy because I thought, okay, yeah, this is where this is the floor where old partners come to die. It made me think about how and I continue to think about how we treat people and why people don't want to move on. And I think my husband said this recently. I mean, one of the problems with society today is that nobody wants to move on from leadership. People hang on too long and they hang on beyond their usefulness or even their practicality. I mean, as we get older, we think a different way. You know, leaders are supposed to move on to make room for the next generation that has new ideas, new energy. But because there's no place for our senior leaders to go with honor and dignity, I think people hold on too long. And I think we suffer as a society, as a nation, as a world, because we haven't figured out how to honor our elders to give them a space to leave gracefully, to really give them a place of honor so that they feel ready and anxious to go there. It doesn't feel like the end of the road, it's the beginning of something new. And we don't do that well in America or in the world. And I think people are younger people, especially are just freaked out by scared by the aging process. Don't want to deal with it. And so shunted aside, just as I think with grief, oftentimes when somebody in your office has lost a loved one and they come back after you know, but two days of bereavement or relief or whatever ridiculous, some tiny amount people are given. And people don't know what to say. And sometimes, and I hear this all the time from listeners of the podcast, you know, people either don't say anything because they think, oh, I don't want to, maybe they think, oh, I don't want to, you know, bring this up and upset the person as if it's not constantly in that person's head all the time. You know, I think about my dad and my brother and everybody I've lost all the time. It's always there. It's not like somebody's going to upset me by bringing it up. But also people don't know what to say. And sometimes when people do start to say things, it seems like people are kind of probing to see how bad they should feel like, well, how old was the person? And where they sit for a long time, were you close? And kind of a checklist of like, okay, well, you weren't really close and they were old, so it was kind of expected. I'll never ask you about this again. Right. I don't have to worry about it. And it makes me feel better now. I go, okay, not too close. Okay, fine. You know, every year around this time, my skin reminds me that winter is officially here. The cold air outside, the heat blasting inside, it's a whole situation. That's why I love Sarah V's new intensive moisturizing cream. The number one dermatologist recommended skincare brand developed with dermatologists to keep your skin hydrated and comfortable all season long. And I'll tell you, the moisturizer I used in my 30s, just not cutting it anymore. As I've got older, I've noticed that it's so much harder to moisturize my skin, especially in cold weather. I used to apply skin cream once a day. Now I have to apply it at least twice and sometimes three times a day. And in warm weather, I need to pay special attention to my skin, making sure that I'm moisturizing adequately after swimming and showering to prevent itching and scaling. That's why I like to use Sarah V. Their new cream is their richest formula yet, made with Hydro-Yuria, three essential ceramides and Shea butter. So it gives deep, lasting radiant hydration for up to 72 hours. Release 99% of itchingness and helps strengthen your skin barrier in just one use. And it goes on smooth, no sticky, greasy feel, just soft, healthy, comfortable skin that looks as good as it feels. So if your skin's feeling tight, dry, or just ready for some extra care, give it the comfort it deserves. Sarah V. Intensive Moisturizing Cream, developed with dermatologist and trusted by them too. Learn more at SarahV.com. Hey everybody, Craig Robinson here. Amazon has everything for everyone on your list. And I want to talk to you about last minute Christmas shopping and holiday shopping, because I was a chief offender there. And I tell you, before I found Amazon, it was a stressful time for me. I'd go around collecting everybody's list in the middle of December and trying to get gifts and I was running around all over the place. But then I discovered Amazon and I saw how they do their last minute deals. And I can always find savings on gifts for my family, whether it's toys, electronics, fashion, cosmetics, you name it, house goods, they've always got stuff on sale. And I can get it relatively quickly. Then I'm not running around the mall, stressing and sweating. And gifts show up there right on time. I can get them wrapped and under the tree, no problem. So this year, if you're in my position and you're stressing, Amazon makes last minute shopping feel like you planned it weeks ago. So that my friends is my tip for the day. Shop for gifts for everyone in your family on Amazon. And be ready, because they're going to have last minute deals for you to take advantage of. Even after years of coaching basketball, I'm still trying to get better. So when I saw Steph Curry's class on masterclass, I had to check it out. He breaks down everything, shooting form, footwork, mindset. And it reminded me how the little things make the biggest difference on and off the court. With masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. For about $10 a month, build annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best athletes, business leaders, chefs and more. Steph's lessons on preparation and confidence really stuck with me. It's advice I've started using in my own routine. And the classes really make a difference. Three and four members feel inspired every time they watch. And every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. So there's no risk in trying it. So if you're ready to level up on the court at work or just in life, now's the time. Get 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com. slash IMO pod that's masterclass.com slash IMO pod for 15% off. I have a question because I think you, I mean, you've talked to so many people through your short connected with so many people. What would, what would be the first thing you said you would say to somebody who had lost someone when you when you ran and walked into work because and it's okay if you don't have an answer. No, yes. I have people all day long now. The nice thing about doing this podcast is I have people, I mean, I flew from New York to LA this morning. I had some, I had two people in the airport stop me and tell me about somebody they had lost. And it is, I, it's beautiful. It's the most real conversation you can possibly have. And the fact that they took a moment to tell me about their loved one and and I, you know, I asked that I asked them the name of the person and you know, sometimes it really depends on the situation. I mean, look, sometimes, some of some someone doesn't really want to talk about it and they just want to let you know that they they they have had this loss. So a lot of it I think is kind of just getting a sense from the other person. But, you know, I sometimes I will I generally won't ask well, what would they die of? Yeah, what happened there? You tell me what happened. I'll usually ask like, how do you how do you meet? How do you meet your husband? And immediately someone smiles and has this story of like the first time they met or something that brings up that that lets the other person know you're interested in you care. And, and yet also that maybe allows them to touch for a moment that that person and feel that person for a second. I think that's the most powerful. It again, I think it largely depends. Yeah, I feel like such a smuck. Sorry, I mean, I feel like such a smuck because of the way I deal with grief. I put on the person who's grieving, right? So I'm very perfunctory. Yeah, what do you want? This is exactly how so. Okay, sorry for your loss. Right. You know, that's like that's like the go to when you want to say something, but you don't want any more facts. Right. And and that that's me and and just hearing you say asking just asking more questions, I'm like fearful of doing that. Fearful that it's going to upset them because it's or just it's going to be a tsunami upset you. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I feel like a schmuck because I'm thinking about myself this whole time when I see your reaction to how moving this is for you, I'm like that. Well, the question is, have you grieved? Well, in my opinion, I've grieved the way I thought I would grieve, which is, okay, I'm going to have my three days and then off back to work. Right. There are times and Kelly knows this where something will remind me of my mom. Yeah, and you can't talk. Yeah. And that's and that's probably why I don't say stuff to people because before it would be something that remind me of my father. And that then when it got far enough away, I was like, all right, I'm better now. Right. But I mean, I got to tell you for you know, for somebody who's grieving to have that interaction with you and to see the tears in your eyes as I'm seeing right now. Yeah. That would be an extraordinary moment to share with some someone you may never see him again. Never seen him. Yeah. But you've had a genuine like connection with another human being about the most important fundamental thing, which you both share even though you don't even know that person's name. Yeah. But did you when my mom died, I was ready for her death. What I wasn't ready for was the realization that I'm the last one left. And that hit me. I mean, I was my mom, like you're my mom, I've been talking about dying her entire life. And usually in the vein of like, well, I'll never be a burden. And you can always find 50 second all. I was like, can't can you? I don't know. Like why are you saying that to a 14 year old? That's kind of freaking me out. Do I need to call authority? It's something. But after a while, like two and a half years, it was just, you know, people say stuff. You have no idea when the end of your life comes. My mom was was holding on for as long as she could. But that feeling of, oh, wow, I'm the last one left who knows all like just the little tiny memories that seem important when I was a child or the little sounds in my house and all of that just kind of. And I'm so, I think that's why going through the stuff has been so hard for me because everything is infused with memory and meaning, even if it's, you know, 100 Christmas cards that my mom received in 1973. Like I go through each one because some of them are for some pretty interesting people. I was like, oh, I didn't know Charlie Chaplin sent Christmas cards. But some of them are just, some random person and, you know, those all throw out. But it's very hard to kind of, I find it very hard to kind of let go of these things that I feel like it's letting go a piece of down basically. I think I'm just the opposite. Really? Yeah. And it may be protective. Right? You have no, you have, I am not, I'm notoriously not a saver. Okay. I mean, and even with mom, right? Our mom, you know, she lived with us in the White House, but she kept our childhood home. And when she left the White House, we didn't want her to go back to a home. Because we just thought for security reasons, right? So we got our condo downtown, Chicago with the dormant and everything. But the house was still there. It was sort of like an albatross for her, right? Because you still had to check the furnace and, you know, more the lawn and all of that sort of stuff. But I used to push her to go through the basement and get rid of stuff. Right? Because she had my law library books. I was like, mom, they don't even have, you know, law books don't last. The law changes. They are obsolete. Don't save them. And so she finally did. It may have been, we, we, we, we, Kelly, on Shirley Kelly did, Kari, my sister-in-law, but we, finally, she was like, okay, I'll get rid of this stuff. But I didn't feel a connection to that. Because I just felt like that's, that's a burr, that's a lot. Yeah. And I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be in a position where my mother would be gone. And then I would be left sorting through all of that stuff. Now, Kelly did that for me. And maybe my sister-in-law will have a harder time. I would just as hard for her. And thank God she did it. But I don't think I would have, and I didn't, I didn't want to have that for left to do. Do you think if you had gone through that thing, that it would have been emotional for you? Or Yes. It would have. Yeah. Yeah. And it might have helped with the grief and problems. So was, was not wanting to go through it, not wanting that emotion or just this is incredibly inconvenient and like this is, who wants to spend, however, 100,000 hours. It goes probably a little bit of a foe. And, and, and really you had to remember, my mom was still alive. So when we were going through stuff, she was like, throw that away, throw that away. Don't throw that away. You should keep this. And we finally got it down to the neck. Well, that's a nice way to do it. It was a nice way to tell it to the story. Yes. Yes. It was, it was, it was a better way to do it. But then when she died, she still had a bunch of stuff. And we just like took it all to our house. And then what we're trying to do is not have it so that our, when we, our kids take it to their house, right? But I will say that you got across to mom because she was at a point when she was still alive, still living on Euclid, where she was like, come on over. Euclid is the place we grew up in. Come on over. Let's get rid of this stuff. And I think we got rid of just about everything. And that's why we probably can't find your spiral notebooks. My mom had a storage unit in Queens that she had never been to. Oh my God. And she would just send stuff to the storage unit. We didn't have that. I didn't believe it. I don't have to. This day, believe in a storage unit. They send your dog to the farm. Yeah. My mom would send stuff to the storage unit. And like sometimes, like 20 years later, she'd be like, you know what? There's this chair, I remember. And she'd a lady named Nora who'd worked with my mom for 60 years as her housekeeper. Nora would schlep to the storage unit. Oh man. Find this chair, bring it back. And my mom would embrace it like it was a long lost child for a week. And then be like, it doesn't work anymore. And the chair would go back. So like, it was just, it's like the last thing the citizen came with, there's this warehouse. And like, there's going through it for all things in the fire. I mean, I think you said this earlier. It's like, there's not one way to grieve, right? And I can imagine for your mother, whose childhood was so precarious. Like she didn't have, she didn't have one. Yeah. She didn't have a parent, you know? And the parent that she had through the custody battle, they took her from the woman that, I mean, I hear her story. And I grieve for her. And going through my brother's, I remember, I've killed himself in front of her. Going through his things were just, it was impossible for her. Yeah, absolutely. So I can understand her, like that chair, like that's a memory. That's like the thing that she didn't, she didn't have lessons. Right. It was funny actually once, like, I don't know, the last couple of years of her life, she called me up one day breathless. She was like, I found this screen on first dibs that was made out of some Chinese wallpaper that was once in a dining room my mom had in a house we had when I was a kid. She found it where on first dibs. Okay, for us. Yeah. I guess when she sold the house, somebody took this Chinese wallpaper down, sold it to some store and they made screens out of it. So my mom just randomly found these screens and she was like, oh my god, that's the wallpaper. So my mom was like, you have to get it. I was like, I have to get it. I was like, okay. And they turned out to be like crazy expensive screens. I didn't know screens were so I was like, who do you like a screen? What are we screening? Like what are we doing? We're not on it. Anyway, she was like, you really got to get it. I mean, so much so much. So I was like, okay, fine. I got it. And I mean, we're telling you like, it was like $50,000. I mean, this was like, I did extra, like I took on a couple of speaking gigs to get the screen. The screens and she embraces them like this. This was going to solve her life. Her problem is in life. She brings them, get some in a room. A week later, she calls me up. She was like, I've had to redecorate the dining room around the screens. Which means I'm redecorating the dining room around the screens. And then two weeks, four, four weeks go by and she's like, do you have any room for these screens? They're just, you know, I thought it was the answer, but they just, it doesn't work. Yeah. So. And I've come to believe that things aren't the thing. Yeah, they're not right. As my mom would acknowledge like the thing she would redecorate constantly, but it never quite got it. Right. And it cost a lot of money along. So I'm, you know, I'm trying to practice, I try to practice that is maybe part of my grieving process. That it's, it's not stuff. You know, I don't want it as a memory of me. I don't want my kids to feel that, you know, keeping this thing that I just got forever and lugging it around with them for the rest of their life is a way to stay connected to me or to stay connected to my mother or my father. It's for me stories matter. It goes back to story. Yeah. You know, I'd rather sit and talk about all the times. Remember the time. And do we remember and relay the past those stories on to our kids as a better way of honoring our, our elders, our ancestors, then with a storage room full of their stuff. Yeah. I don't recommend that. Yeah. And Anderson. And I know, by the way, there's one of the reasons I'm so motivated to go all through this stuff because I don't want to leave from my kids. That's right. There's room full of stuff that they're like, who are these people? It's like, and it's these screens. What am I supposed to do? That was just what I wanted to talk about. How does this work now that you know and you've gone through this? How does this inform your parenting and how are you preparing yourself to sort of convey the right message to your voice? To me, I mean, like telling the story of my parents and their parents to my kids is really important. Like I want my kids to know that I like I didn't pay any attention to my mom's family, her history, her family history grown up, like the Vanderbiltz. I consciously wanted nothing to do with them. I at my, in my 12 year old, you know, lizard brain looked at like the poor Cooper's farmers and the messed up Vanderbiltz. I was like, I'm a Cooper. I'm glad I don't have this name. I want to connect with Uncle Raspberry. Exactly. I'm that. I'm a Cooper. I'm not a Vanderbiltz. And it wasn't like there was a pot of gold waiting for me in like the Vanderbilt archives. They spent all that money very quickly. The Vanderbiltz did it from what I, but once I had kids of my own, suddenly I was like, I know nothing about the Vanderbiltz. I can tell you about the Cooper's. And so I actually actually ended up writing a book about him mainly because I wanted to study them and understand who they were. So I could figure out what to tell them, like explain to my kids like this weird lineage they have. Like my dad, the only connection to the Vanderbiltz I had as a kid, my dad once took me to Grand Central Station, which was founded by Tomador Cornelius Vanderbilt, who was not a nice guy. And there's a statue of him outside Grand Central Station, which by the way he paid for and had made and set up there. And it wasn't like his workers loved him. He did. It was his. And he made photographs. He had paintings painted himself and gave them out to all his children, not that they wanted them either. But I remember my dad taking me to see this statue when I was like six. And the only thing I took away from it was that grandparents turned into statues when they die, which is very relatable. I know everybody feels this. Oh yeah. Yeah. Who on that? Does not made that mistake. But I know Andy Cohen makes fun of me. Anytime I tell a child that story is like, oh, the Vanderbiltz. But I wanted to like have a narrative to tell my kids about like this weird family that they came from who achieved remarkable things. But also, you know, this guy who wasn't nice to any of the women in the family. And he sent his wife to a mental hospital because he wanted to have an affair with the babysitter. And you know, so it's it's I do think, you know, for me learning the history has been fascinating, but it's not something I ever paid any attention to. I just thought no good can come of believing you're part of this thing that doesn't exist. Well, I mean, I'm picturing. I'm picturing the statue you in front of the statue, thinking that's where grandparents go. Yeah. Of course, then like a month later, I went to the Museum of Natural History with my, you know, I don't know, it was my first grade of class, Miss Critts, with the teacher. But we went to the Museum of Natural History with my class. And we're outside and there's now that, you know, now infamous statue of Teddy Rose of All in a Horse with two indigenous people. And the teacher was like, does anyone know who this is? And I raised my hand. I was like, I think it's my grandfather. Which again, relatable. It's just like, he's there. And then they beat me up. And, uh, but I, the thing that I like, I mean, I know we've got a listener question. Um, and we'll, we'll get to this. But when I saw the documentary of you and your mother having those conversations, that's the thing that I, that I, I would encourage people to do now. It's like, collect those stories. You know, have those conversations now. I mean, grief is the thing we, we have work to do to understand it. But there is just so much power in getting to know your own story. And those stories are not passed on. They are not. And, you know, with the generation, the details fade away. It gets a little murkier and you don't know who was that. And, you know, in our family, it's like, well, are they really a part of our family? Is that a real cousin or is that a play cousin? It's a, you know, you want to, you want to know all that stuff. And that's, that's worked. That's better than having a storage locker full of stuff. Because it does, I will tell you once I read about the Vanderbilt and wrote a book about them, it made me feel more connected to America in a way. It made me feel more connected to New York City, like this city that they were in hundreds of years ago. And I became fascinated with, you know, the hidden history of New York. And, you know, there's the Starbucks near my house that was the site of the, the Astor riots. Yeah. When there were competing groups in New York, riding over to competing opera houses in lower than hand, which makes no sense. But now that's on what's the show? Guilded age. Is that on the guilded age? That's the guilded age. Well, I know. Oh, my God, that's you. That's your family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that is literally my family. Yeah. Well, we saw the plot lines. There was the operas. Okay. Well, yeah. There you go. Got to watch the guilded age. I don't need, like, yeah, I've never seen it. I've never seen it. It hits too close to home. Right. Right. Right. There for trailer. That's not shocking. That's not. The country home. I never that small. Hey, we did. That's so much. Exactly. Right. But it did make me and knowing my dad's history. And I did the skip gates following you know, find your root show, which was incredible. But it makes you feel more connected to the world and to where you are and to your community. And it just makes, it just makes you feel grounded in a way that I think so many of us don't grow up feeling grounded to our surroundings. We're kind of floating through. Welcome back to IMO. We made it folks. It's December. The holiday hustles just starting to wind down, which means it's a perfect time to switch into new year, new moves mode. What's one big move you want to make in the new year, whatever those big moves are, you need a plan. You need a strategy. You need a partner. You need Shopify. The end of the year is when you review your yearly numbers, clean up your strategies and lay the foundation for what's next. They help you plan, launch, and grow so that the start of 2026 is way ahead of the game. With Shopify, you can keep track of everything from the palm of your hand. You can tag and sell your products globally and across all major social media platforms, making it possible to sell right where your customers are, whether it's a side hustle or a storefront selling locally or globally, Shopify takes the guesswork out of starting a business. They have the tools to help you navigate whatever chaos the new year brings, whether you're selling merch products or the next best idea, make sure you do it via Shopify at Shopify.com slash IMO. For $1, it's time to put that business idea into action and start the next chapter. Again, that Shopify.com slash IMO. Hey, everyone. Craig Robinson here. I was just thinking about traveling with the kids and how confining a hotel can be. Let me tell you, sharing one bathroom with two adults and two teenagers trying to keep the lights off at bedtime, not waking anybody up, just doesn't work. That's why I love finding a place to stay on Airbnb. Can you just imagine the four of us in one tiny room and we're sharing two queen beds? Can't handle it. And personally, this has been a game changer because I tell you, I like getting up in the middle of the night sometimes and turning the TV on to help myself go back to sleep. And how about getting a midnight snack? It just makes the whole trip easier and way more enjoyable if we all have our own room and we have a place that we can convene when we want to with more space, more privacy and a place that really feels like home, booking an Airbnb for your trip just makes sense for families. Working on your mental health doesn't happen all at once. It happens in moments, one conversation, one deep breath, one session at a time. Growth therapy makes it easier to begin. As a coach and an athlete, I've always believed taking care of your mind is part of taking care of your overall game. You train consistently, you build the right support around you and you give yourself space to improve. Therapy can be part of that routine. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, growth makes it simple to find a therapist who actually fits you. They connect you with thousands of licensed therapists across the US with virtual or in-person sessions, including nights and weekends. You can search by insurance, specialty, identity, or availability and start in as little as two days. No subscriptions, no long-term commitments, just pay per session on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, growth therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com-IMO today to get started. That's growththerapy.com-IMO. Growth therapy.com-IMO. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Well, we have a listener question. We always try and pay it forward here at IMO. And this question is from Nancy in Salt Lake City. Hi, Krega Michelle. This is Nancy. I would love to hear you both talk a little about dealing with the loss of your mom, which I'm sure is going to be a hard question. I recently lost my dad in 2022, my mom in 2023, which obviously still makes me emotional. That was a hard 13 months, and obviously the time since I've been hard to. As an only child, it really has been very difficult to process, because I don't have anybody to process with a lot of the time. I'd love to hear how you guys have processed the grief, helped each other, and moved on after listening to your dad when you were younger and your mom were recently. Thank you. That's one of the few questions that is aimed right square at our forehead. So you want to go first? Yeah, I think I'm still processing. I don't think that there's a you process it, and that's that. And I'm learning that there's no need to have processed it. I mean, I don't want to process my parents' lives and feel like I can pack it up. And that's that. Now, they're memory, they are in my head every day, every the way I lead my life, how I show up in the world, the words that come out of my mouth, the impact that I'm trying to have. It's all it's all because of that memory and the loss is a part of it. So I don't want to I'm still working that through. Or the memories tinge with sadness because of the loss, or is there just in that it you can look at it without the it depends on the time of day, right? I mean, they're we they're plenty plenty of times when we sit and laugh. Our family is laughter, you know, that's one one of the ways we deal with with grief. We sit and tell stories and laugh about it. And then there are times just like Craig that feeling of just a mention of their name, it can't come out. And it's not sadness. It's just like it's grief. You know, missing, it's missing more than anything. And I that hasn't gone away. It doesn't go away. My our dad died. It's been 34 years ago. 34 years ago. And look, I'm speaking all the time and I get interviewed all the time. And there's always the what would your dad think of? And I don't care how many times I get that question. Just answering it. It chokes me up because of joy, but it's also longing of what he missed and didn't get a chance to see. And you know, that's oh, I don't think that's ever going to go away. But I don't know that it needs to. I just think it's a part of me now. Like like life, his life is a part of me, his death is a part of me. Yeah. Yeah. I feel them in different ways. I mean, time, what I would say time matters. Right. I mean, in terms of the day to day, pain, loss, grief, that's one of those things where I believe time heals all wounds. It just, you know, after a while, the cut becomes, you know, skin healed and then it's scab and then it's a scar. But the scar is always there. And the loss of my parents are scars on me. And they will be there forever. But that's a part of life. There can be no other way. So I think part, you know, hearing you say that you just have to develop a relationship with grief. It's, you know, it's the goal isn't to grieve and have it gone. It's just like this is now a part of my life. I had the blessing of having these two amazing people whose loss I feel. And I couldn't have that without, you know, the loss is a part of having them. So if I had to do it all again, I choose to have them and go through the loss. But do I ever just feel like, that's done. No, no, some days I do, some days I don't. You know, I would say, tenancy and in this discussion, my parents, my mom, particularly because my dad died first. She did a really good job. Of well, first of all, my parents did a really good job of loving us unconditionally, right? And letting us know they loved us. There's nothing better than that. Especially when you lose one early because my mom did a really good job. And you'll remember this and some people have heard me tell the story. My mom said to us or she said to me, I don't know, she said it to us when we were fighting when my dad passed away. Of course, we were. We had one fight. That was like, yes, we had one fight. But it was like the only fight we had in our lives was when my dad died. And that was grief. And that was grief at the time. But you'll love this. My mom said to us, you know, your dad loved you and you knew how much he loved you. And he knew how much you loved him. So you don't have to be upset about not knowing you guys loved each other because he knew he told me all the time. And that eased my pay. I don't know about you, but it eased my pain. And it made me sadder at the same time. And as my mom was getting older, we would talk about that. And that was her way of saying that she loved us. And don't worry, when I die, I know you love me. That was a, that's a gift that parents can give their kids when they're alive to help the grieving process. I mean, it was, and when I get choked up, it's only because I miss her. I don't think I missed out on anything. And would love to have her back. But to me, she's point, you know, maybe I am, maybe you just grieve until the end of time. I don't know because I felt like I had got over my father's death. I had gotten over my father's death until my mom died. And then I re-grieved for him while I was grieving for my mom. But even the thought of I got over my father's death, why? Why would that be? Why is that a mission? Well, it's only some, it's more a rhetorical question. It's not even a question for you. But it's only some mantis in my case. But I think that that's what people are trying to get to. They're like, when do I get over this? How do I get over this? And we're learning, we have learned today that maybe you never get over it and maybe you don't need to get over it. Maybe it's a relationship. Like you said, it's a relationship now for the rest of your life. Well, I think that word process is, I'm not big on jargon. And I think that word process is very overused because to me, it's like a word everybody uses. I don't really know what it means to process grief like a cured meat or something. I'm not exactly sure what it is. I understand the therapeutic nature of it and feeling things and their steps and all that. But I think a lot of people I hear from will say, okay, there's steps you go through and you process it. And then suddenly you find yourself back at step one because some you hear a song. And it takes you right back to your kid again. I ran from this stuff for so long. I know what it is, not to process and to try to push it down. And it doesn't go away. And I know I feel better. It's harder feeling, but I like feeling. And it makes me more able to feel your sadness and to feel your sadness. And I think that's a bond. I've received the benefit of feeling my dad again. And that's an incredible thing. I would always hear people talk about, oh, I feel them in my heart or and to me, it always felt like a hallmark card. But to suddenly feel my dad inside is beautiful. I don't feel it as much with my brother because I think we both went to our individual corners when my dad died. We never talked about it. And I think his death was so violent and stunned and shocking to me that I feel like I sometimes feel like I don't even know who he was. And that's the terrible feeling. And I'm hoping that will change. But it's you know, to feel to feel these people alive inside me is incredible. And it's such a blessing. And you can only get that if you process or whatever word you want to use. I want us all to just kind of hold space for it to say, yeah, this is going to have an impact on me. Or it has had an impact on me. And maybe by doing that, we can think about when something triggers us when we're having a bad day, don't brush off on, wonder what's going on. And how about immediately going to, what am I grieving? You know, and maybe be easier on yourself first about it. Or get help or reach out or talk about it. So I would say to our listener to Nancy, like, talk. Don't sit alone in it. Reach out, have conversations, find somebody to unburden yourself with the feelings. And that you got to do that. Don't sit alone. If she's thinking about it, then I'd say don't spend a whole lot of time just thinking about it. Do it, find a place, find a person. Yeah, I mean, the power of grief support groups, sometimes it's hard to find communities, but they're often available. And that could be an extraordinary thing to be in a place where you don't have to explain yourself to people who are in that room because they just know. And Heron and I was talking to a woman Mary, who's son Diaglio Blastoma. And I talked to every couple of weeks. We talked on the phone late at night. And I never met her. But that's one of the things she just started going to a support group. And she says, like, I finally feel I can I can relax there. I can because I don't need to kind of explain, you know, or am I going crazy? I can just be. And I would say Nancy, whatever you're feeling, remember that probably everybody around you that you interact is trying to figure this out. That's for sure. And maybe it feels less lonely. If we all see us as, you know, people in this process together, and it all hurts. And yeah, whether you had a great relationship with the person or whatever their age or how would happen, it's a thing that happens. And if we could just be more gentle with other people in the way we would want to be gentle to our 10 year old selves. That just that process of offering gentleness is helpful. I mean, I see that in you, the process of taking in other people's leaving space for other people's empathy, this whole program, this project of yours is healing you. Yeah, without a doubt. And you would think, my God, that's a lot. Like, we started out. Why did you? Why are you doing this? Well, we were ending this conversation, under like, what a what a gift you have that you have this healing experience happening, which ends up being you holding space for other people. That's a lesson. Like, that's the power of kindness and empathy. And we need to be thinking about that in these times. And all you can do is once you leave somebody is to live a life worthy of theirs. That's that's how I think about it. My my grieving is my life. It's like, I'm honoring Mary and and Frazier by showing up every day in a way that would honor them. And I think that's now it's better than tearing shit up. It would be very proud of you. Thanks, Anderson. Thank you, man. This is a pleasure. I really love you. You're only me. You're only me.