Welcome to the Market Texture Podcast. This is Ari Papero. I'm here with Eric Franchi. And our guest today is old friend of mine, Jonathan Carson, who is the co-founder and CEO of Antenna, the streaming measurement firm. And he was formerly the CRO at Trade Desk and the CRO at Vivo. And I worked with him at Nielsen. And he effectively knows everything there is to know about measurement and TV and streaming and signups and everything like that. So I'm pretty excited to have this conversation because there's been a lot of news in that area. And it's a pretty important topic. Do you follow this area a lot, Eric? Yeah, I mean, there's always so much news that we have to prepare for for the for the pod. Right. So like, you know, just last week we were talking about how the the linear platforms are really mad at Nielsen over underreporting and everything like that. So I think Jonathan brings great perspective. I do think that just given everything that's going on with platforms becoming larger and more on the channel, measurement is just so important and just a big category and a big opportunity. So cool to see a company like Antenna and a founder like Carson just being all in on it. Absolutely. And he'll talk a little bit about his business, which is pretty interesting. So next week, we're at Possible in Miami. Come say hello to me and to Eric and any other members of the architecture team. If you see AdTechGod, say hi to AdTechGod or praise him in one way or another. Eric, is there anything? Are you doing anything? Startup competition, anything like that? Yeah, so two things. So first is with Possible, my card is stacked. So if you see me, just I'll probably be running to a meeting. Don't stick out your foot and trip me and make me late, but please say hi. And then, yes, Apparium and Growth by Science, we are co-hosting a startup competition. The finalists are great. It's going to be a two-day competition. It's going to be on the innovation stage. Come through if you want to say hi to me, Corey, Joe, any of the team. That's where we'll be. Sorry, what is Growth by Science? Oh, Growth by Science. A guy by the name of Andrew Covado, who is like one of the smartest people that I know in measurement. And we partner up and co-sponsor. This is the second year in a row. Oh, fine. We've done it. Yeah. OK, great. And for those of you who read the newsletter, at the end of this show, we often say, well, the links will be in the newsletter. And I wanted to give a little update on that because we're trying something kooky. So as many readers, listeners know, I have my pet project called MadDB, which is a database of all the news and all of advertising over the last 20 years. You should sign up at maddb.ai. So what we're doing is we're collecting all the news from this podcast into basically a list of links that you can access through the newsletter. But also you can create your own links and your own lists if you want of news on various subjects. It's basically like a bookmarking service. So I'm excited about it because this sort of thing gets me excited. I don't expect other people to. But if you're wondering why the format in the newsletter looks like that and why what the point is, you can click through. You can bookmark them yourselves, create your own lists, share them with your team, stuff like that. So let me know what you think. On that, let's jump in. So Jonathan Carson talking about the state of chaos in streaming measurement. We're here with Jonathan Carson, the co-founder and CEO of Antenna. Jonathan and I worked together at Nielsen a while back. So welcome to the pod. Really happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So I wanted to have you on because I think you're pretty deep and knowledgeable about measurement and TV and streaming and where it's where it was, where it's going next. And it seems like it's a big mess. Some of the headlines we've seen in the past couple of months are, you know, Nielsen Gage is under criticism by one of his biggest customers at NBCU. Nielsen Gage is delayed. We had this T-Vision sale. T-Vision was a venture funded startup that was trying to compete with Nielsen and they sold for much less money than they even raised. And going back a little bit, we had VideoAmp effectively implode and lose its top executives. So what's going on? Is this like, is this a doomed space? Is this impossible? Yeah, so there's definitely a lot of nerd drama going on right now. That is for sure. It's hard to keep up with. There's a new headline every week of some disaster. in this space. I think if you cut through the noise, what's really driving it is that the transition from measuring linear to measuring streaming is just, it's really painful. It's a really different world we're moving to. And it's not like a light switch. It's happening gradually over the course of a decade. And so you kind of have to measure both at the same time. which is just really, really tough. Yeah, so is the problem, so Nielsen is the monopoly in the space, in linear at least, and let's just focus on them for a moment. So they've been trying to become better at alternative ways of watching TV, at streaming, they've been expanding in all kinds of ways. If they had done a good job, would this have been solved? how much of this is the problem that they didn't move fast as fast as the industry wanted them to look? I mean, you gotta, you gotta look at it. Like what Nielsen is going through is actually not unlike what the traditional media companies are going through. You, you know, you're in that position, you know, streaming is the future. You want to be all in, but when the majority of your revenue and all of your profits are still in linear broadcast, You have to manage that transition really carefully. And on top of that, you know, Nielsen has an extra pressure that they have to keep those legacy and the new clients, you know, the new streaming clients happy through that process. process. And because of the area, you are former Nielsen, we know not to use the M word because of their unique market position, you know, clients expect to be very involved, a lot of heads up, a lot of opportunity to give feedback. And, you know, that results in these crazy timelines where, you know, they announce a product and it's coming out in 19 quarters. that's pretty difficult the 19 quarter roadmap uh what so what is um what's this what's this current situation as far as you know about gauge what is it supposed to accomplish versus what is it actually doing yeah so i mean important to say the gauge is not an actual product the tv yeah the tv ratings product is uh is is what buyers and sellers use to transact advertising, the Gage is a marketing product. It's a thought leadership product. It's been really successful in market, but it really just breaks down time spent across the different video channels and then around individual networks. And it does matter, though, because people kind of use it as a barometer to understand how that shift from linear to streaming is taking place. And now, as I understand it, a bunch of the changes that Nielsen has been implementing to the actual TV ratings product, they, for the first time, started to put one of those changes into the gauge. It all of a sudden changed the narrative, which had come out last year, that streaming had surpassed linear internal time spent. The streaming clients were not happy about that. The traditional media companies were happy about that. There was back and forth. They were planning to release it and then they decided not to release it. And so suddenly the number said that linear was growing and streaming wasn't growing as much, which seemed a little strange. And and these numbers really matter because this is what people bill and and book on. Well, now the gauge numbers they don't bill and book on. Okay, the ratings numbers. The product itself they bill and book on. So, you know, important distinction. The gauge is more, you know, a thought leadership market trend number. And on the positive side, Nielsen has made a lot of strides in the last couple of years to include things like out of home, which was a longtime complaint of like sports networks that they weren't getting bars and they weren't getting, you know, people in each other's homes, you know, Super Bowl parties and stuff like that. Yep, that was a big development for sports numbers. I think the specific thing that was going into the gauge that drove TV linear viewership up was kind of better, call it better measurement of like rural counties and some undercounted populations. So this stuff is complicated. And the problem is with every change, there's a batch of people that are winners. There's a batch of people that are losers. The losers tend to be a little more vocal than the winners. So then we get all this drama. It's a funny situation where you think of yourselves as selling a product to a customer, but the customer actually is relying on your measurement to sell stuff. And so if they're not happy with the product, they lose money. And it causes this pretty interesting, you know, back and forth where they get sniped out in the press by NBC or someone like that. But anyway, let's go back in time. So a couple of years ago there was blood in the water Right And I don know I would probably hesitate to give it an exact year but sometime around the covid world where streaming was obviously increasing You had T-Vision and VideoAmp and Comscore and a couple of others that all were saying, like, now is our opportunity. We're going to we're going to make this transition to streaming in a way that big, dumb old Nielsen won't be able to. And there was a joint industry committee, a JIC, that was that sort of I don't remember exactly what they weren't going to select a vendor, but they were going to kind of approve vendors as being eligible. And it appears that that is dead. That whole wave is dead. I don't want to put words into your mouth. Maybe it's not dead. Maybe I just think it's dead. But it feels like it was a failure. Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't say it's dead. I wouldn't say it's dead. I think there was a wave of energy around this idea of, you know, quote, alternative currencies. And there was a bunch of industry work, you know, through the JEC, through the ARF, through SIM, these various industry bodies, just to try to get the industry aligned around definitions and what good looks like, all that stuff. And I think that was pretty successful. To me, the idea of an alternative currency is it's kind of the wrong way to look at this situation. In actuality, the traditional Nielsen business of verifying, did I reach my intended audience across publishers? like that particular and especially, you know, looked at by a narrow set of demographic measures, that particular question is just going to be a lot smaller than it used to be. But if you look at the way CTV is being traded and will be traded, the total role that data plays in the picture, the number of questions that it answers, the role that it plays in selection, in execution, and then in measurement on the back end is going to be much, much bigger. You know, if you think of terms in terms of programmatic take rates, the take rate for data business, all data and technology and linear television, maybe 5%. You know, what do you think it's going to be in CTV, a lot bigger. So we are talking about a much bigger pie. The thing that Nielsen traditionally did, it's going to be a piece of it, but a pretty small piece of it. So the whole thing is like, how do these models emerge and who, you know, participates most actively? I feel like we're sliding into the what does antenna do territory. So what is your vision as the CEO of Antetta for the future of all this stuff and the measurement of streaming entertainment and content? Yeah, so, I mean, we actually come at it from a totally different angle. You know, we launched our business actually two weeks into pandemic, so just as all this crazy streaming stuff was really taking off. But we launched it to measure subscriptions, the other revenue stream for these streamers. And so we have a panel of 2 million Americans. We measure their financial transactions. We use that to count the number of subscribers to all these services, but then do really deep analytics on acquisition and churn. More recently, over the past year, we've started to integrate ACR data directly into that panel. So now we're drifting into this space in a more specific way. The angle that we're taking, though, right now with our subscriber views product is programming analytics. So we're looking at when people sign up for a service, what are the first shows they watch, what are the viewing patterns in particular shows that drive stickiness and retention when you know interesting groups cancel a service what do they go watch on other services so yeah it's interesting you bring up the content side it feels like um the content uh stuff really does drive churn and sign up especially maybe there's some cohort of uh money saving types who are constantly like oh the game of thrones is back well let's get hbo or mandalorian on disney and then they cancel as soon as it's over. How much of that is happening? It's a lot. Programming really does drive the majority of activity. So the fact that we're able to tie those together, we think is really valuable on the subscription side. It does, we think over time, get to be an interesting part of the advertising equation as well. You know, thus far, most of CTV ads have been sold on an audience basis, but we're just now getting to the point where the streamers are getting big enough audiences to actually sell around shows. So if you think like two years ago, our antenna numbers say that less than 10% of Netflix subs were on the advertising plan. last month we measured 54% of people signing up for Netflix signed up for the ad plan. Now, yeah, they're at a place where all of a sudden, you know, if you want to plan a campaign or build a package around the crown or stranger things, like you actually have the type of audience half that you can do that. And we think that's going to be exciting for brands and exciting for the streamers. And we think more of that traditional show-based buying won't be the whole thing, but it'll be part of the equation going forward. How big does a show have to get before it's worth selling on its own? I mean, I know that's very subjective, but what have you seen anecdotally? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the streamers are experimenting with that now. I mean, if you think about how that translates to in traditional linear, you know, certainly shows that are doing whatever, you know, a few million, several million are those are properties that advertisers will build a plan around. And so, you know, if it translates to the same type of numbers in CTV, we're reaching that point, at least for the top shows. So where does this end up? What's like the measurement nirvana for these for these publishers? What do they want to see in their dashboard? And and will it be one vendor, two vendors, or N vendors? Yeah, so I mean, I think it's pretty clear in, it's pretty clear to the marketplace now, it's not going to be one provider. It's going to be, it's going to be a mix. Some of it's going to be, you know, integrated into the DSP. Some of it's going to be driven by first party. Some of it will be by third party. So I think that that work around standardization that we talked about that the JIC and the industry bodies did, that that's going to be important in driving some principles around how people think about the space. But then individual brands and individual publishers, you know, depending on their brand goals or the strengths of their audience, they're going to find different flavors of it to monetize most effectively in their environment. You still have a gatekeeper effect because you don't want just any little startup doing measurement that pretends to be an alternative currency. You still need the MRC or the JIC or whomever. I assume that's going to be part of it. Yeah, well, in the industry bodies, as a function to establish those standards, provide some sort of framework for evaluating vendors, that's a really valuable part of the ecosystem. Yeah, one thing we covered on this pod a while back is the sort of mashing together where podcasting is becoming a player. You have Netflix signing podcast deals, YouTube signing podcast, YouTube becoming the largest podcast distribution channel. And it feels like it's just fragmenting even further where you have smaller and smaller called shows. Maybe they're just influencer channels that suddenly are important parts of the media mix. Like how far does this scale downwards to the smallest content? Because that's really the fundamental problem is the downward scaling measurement. Yeah, because we're dealing with digital measurement, the measurement scales quite well. The problem in traditional linear and some of the challenges I think that traditional measurement has had in porting over to streaming is it wasn't designed to deal with things that weren't the biggest mass channels. channels, you know, the mechanisms that we have now, we're panel-based, but we're 2 million. So that's a big, that's 1% of the audience. That's a big panel. And a lot of the measurement systems are essentially census-based. You know, they're working with the actual ad transaction data, the ad delivery data, things like that. So it will scale quite well. Kind of the last topic, it wasn't actually on the agenda, but I'm sure you have some insight in it. is where does sports fit in? Because the NFL rights are being negotiated over the next, I guess, 18 months or something like that. And first of all, I'm sure in your data, you see they have a pretty strong effect on signups. But I'm just wondering how you think that's going to play in and what you hear in the industry. Yeah, I think it forces a lot of this transition to happen faster because, you know, the big sports rights have over the last couple years really flipped the switch to go aggressively after big streaming deals And so then all of a sudden you got you know 20 20 million people watching Thursday night football on Amazon, all on CTV or almost all on CTV. Well, then all of a sudden, like you need those hardcore, you know, traditional TV metrics to work in that environment. so that that's forcing the function a lot faster. I swear, I don't want to sound like an old man, but every Thursday I'd be like, how do I watch Prime Video again? Where is this game? I would like be Googling Prime Video because it's logging into my Amazon account. I'd be like, I could either reorder some printer cartridges or I could watch a football game. So I think that's a challenge. All right. Topic for another edition. Topic for another edition. Okay, this is a super interesting continuing area. Eric, you have something you wanted to add? No, I'm just laughing. Actually, maybe one. I'm kind of obsessed with Paramount in a number of fronts. Do you have data on when Paramount did the UFC deal where they basically bought the rights to UFC? did that have like a big bump in subscribers for them? Yeah. Yeah. We saw, you know, an order of a million new people sign up for that first fight, which is a fantastic, fantastic pop. And then I will say also that we saw it was, you know, absolutely one of the most watched programs that Paramount has had amongst new subscribers. The other thing that we saw is, and clearly, Clearly, Paramount knew this and making that big bet. It's a very loyal audience. So the retention of that group, both to the ensuing fights, but also to Paramount Plus subscription has been quite strong. All right. On that note, let's take a quick break. We'll come back with a lot of news this week. As usual, AI and some interesting people move. So we'll be right back. All right. We are back with the refresh, all the news of the week. So a few things. We have some platform stuff. We have some AI stuff. We have some people stuff, something for everybody. Let's talk platforms. So this week we had two companies did a couple of announcements. So let's start with Index Exchange. Index launched Index Cloud. So effectively a way to bring the buy side closer to the sell side and tapping into Index's new neutral compute environment, which I say will help bring down costs, improve efficiency, and maybe create some competition in the DSP market. All right, do you have a chance to check out this one? What was your tip? Well, on the one hand, I'd say it's great that Index is differentiating. All the other SSPs are rushing to add buying platforms, DSPs within the SSP, and Index is not. They're saying, well, we're going to lead effectively in curation. letting people come in here and do what they want to on our inventory. So I think that's pretty interesting and differentiated. And I've talked to Andrew Casale. He's I think he's going to be our guest next week. We're still working on scheduling. So we'll hear a lot more about it then. On the other hand, on the little skeptical side, I have two skepticisms. One is like this is not new. I mean, this is Brian O'Kelly's pitch for AppNexus circa 2006. You know, basically put it in our cloud. It'll be faster. We give you compute. And the second question I have in general is fragmentation. Are you, as a buyer, going to have a real opportunity here in Index's cloud when you can't get, say, you know, I think Hulu is exclusive to Magnite, for example. So suddenly you're going to have everything except Hulu. And also Google Ad X still has a lot of inventory. You can't get it anywhere else. So, you know, the data curation use case makes a ton of sense. Does the DSP use case make sense about putting a real bidder there? I'm a little skeptical. Yeah, no, those are those are good points. My partner, Jez Wadski, he he's been saying for some time now, the DSP market will either be like a three company market or a 300 company market. Right. And this may be, you know, how the latter gets realized. First company that is launching on this is Bedrock Platform. which we invested in at Apparium, and we had Shane on very early on. And they were basically talking about this idea that, you know, DSP needs more competition, DSP can compete in different ways, and bringing costs down could be a way for challenger DSPs to compete in this era of behemoths with unique data, unique inventory. Jonathan, it's been a little while, but you have some DSP DNA. What do you think about this? I think the concept of how the DSP market shakes out and consolidates is really interesting. I think there's a lot of benefit to big brands that comes from scale. So I think on the top end of the market, it'll be pretty consolidated. but when you go down into specific niches there's really pretty great ways for specialists to differentiate so yeah and i wrote about this in my newsletter this past week i wrote an article that everyone hated called uh it's the data stupid about how if you have unique data you effectively have your own dsp and if you don't have unique data it's pretty tough sledding um so i think that's kind of relevant here you got a lot of hate on that one a little hate yeah just because we got people that didn't own unique data yeah i love that also um i i don't want to call it a correction but the the nexon people are all over me because they were not included as a dsp in my little list um and they do have unique data apparently nexon since they bought a moby has quite a bit of non-video um so they were upset that they weren't on the list so now they're in the podcast all right half a correction right there work work the refs work the refs speaking of unique did. I thought this one was interesting, too. Another one on the index front. So they're making Unity one of the big gaming ad platforms. Their data available through curated marketplace deals, right? So this idea of, you know, index just enabling curation of unique inventory. I think this is a really cool use case. And, you know, they say gamers are a hard to reach market outside of the game. So I think this is a neat deal. Yeah. And Unity, maybe I'm getting this totally wrong, but I believe they shut down their ad network recently. They had IronSource they had acquired and they shut it. So Chris Feo is over there. He's doing their ad business and they're definitely shaking it up. They're trying different things here. Yeah, this has Chris's fingerprints all over it. Him coming out of Experian, Experian having Autogen, them seeing the power of curation. I think the breadcrumbs are there. All right, let's talk about TTD. So TTD this week launched Koa Agents, which is their agentic platform. It's a system called OpenAgenticKit, which I think kind of competes with ARTF and ADCP, maybe not. in the announcement, two things. So first is Stagwell was announced as the first partner. So shout out to Stagwell. And Jeff Green had a really interesting blog post that at once sort of announced this and gave a lot of credit to Stagwell, but then at the same time, you know, continue to throw not a name, you know, some other hold codes under the bus and I'll pull one out. Quote, we're increasingly focused on powering the advertising companies of the future. Those who make things more efficient, not those who exploit inefficiencies. Good quote. All right, Jonathan, now it's time for you to weigh in. Yeah, so I think this is a place where Trade Desk's heritage really gives them a great advantage. You know, Trade Desk from day one built itself in what at the time was a really contrarian approach of being a deep partner to the agencies. And so while the rest of the industry has done a bunch of pivots to try to follow, TradeDesk has just had a big lead in kind of DNA that's been tough to match on that front. So when you think about something like, okay, what's the buying system that's going to best figure out a GenTech workflows that fit into an agency structure? I think TradeDesk is really well positioned to lead there. Makes a lot of sense. All right, what you got? Yeah, I think there's sort of this vibe in the industry right now that that AI is not for sort of point to point use cases like, hey, tell me what segments you have. And it's more about orchestration across the more complicated workflows that the customers have when you're talking about planning, buying, optimizing, creative, et cetera. I heard a very similar pitch from Triple F this week. I spoke at their little afternoon thing. I was a moderator on a panel unrelated to AI. But over there, Dave Heimlich and team are very much talking about this. Like, we want to be able to do the complete suite of AI activities, not just the point suite. Hopefully that was under embargo, but we'll see. Hopefully not It a good pitch for them but I hearing this more and more You know like because the simple point to point stuff is trivial nowadays with AI and Claude Yeah yeah that makes sense One to watch. Also, TTD phased out the much maligned periodic table UI and is being replaced with something that is more akin to what people expect. So that's probably another good positive, just given, you know, simplicity of the UI is paramount. When it's not working, you got to give up. And just product managers everywhere, don't use metaphors. Metaphors don't work for UIs. Metaphors are good for product naming, but not for the UI. Just make the UI boring boxes, tables, lines, searching, filtering. Don't do weird metaphors. We're back to the boxes and tables. I love tables. Good job, TTD. Okay, cool. Let's move on. AI stuff. So this rolled out last week. And after the pod, it's probably worth us talking about. So Claude launched Claude Design with the launch of Opus 4.7. And basically, it's ridiculous capabilities that, you know, take on companies like Figma and Canva. Have either of you guys played with this thing yet? I've not. But if you told me it helps me avoid using Canva, I'm all in. They got my money. Take my money. how about you jonathan did you give it a shot no i haven't dug in yet all right weekend project all right as the resident guinea pig on the plot on the pot i always do this stuff so i can i can bring some some feedback so i tried this and oh my god so the use case is it's for sales and marketing teams so you know like either just upload something that you know is like reflective of your core brand guidelines or actually like feed it into Claude and then say, give me a one sheeter, give me marketing collateral, like give me anything. So I took like a really big Apparium deck, like one of those just like, you know, tons of slides, you know, had our brand guidelines, had everything into it and just said, make this a one sheeter. And it made it a one sheeter that like I would have paid for, you know, it took like two minutes. You know, I probably would have changed some of the wording, but from a design perspective, layout, like hidden things about 90%, it was great. And way beyond my like, you know, borderline design capabilities. So this is like really, really exciting stuff. I think this is going to be like used all over the place, particularly like with sales and go to market teams. Everybody should try it. It's super neat. Yeah, I'm excited about this. I think it's sort of Figma and Canva are different use cases, obviously. Figma is under pressure because while Figma is a great tool for product designers, increasingly people are asking whether they need product designers or if product designers need to be in the loop on every project or more like an establishment use case where you figure out the design system and then other people run with it. Whereas Canva, the whole point of Canva is to is to make it easy to create designs. That's like their value prop is like let non-designers create useful collateral for design. And it feels like AI just kind of blows that out of the water to some extent. It does. It does. I have to try it to like, you know, I think fully appreciate it. But whereas with Canva, you kind of need to know what you're doing. You know, it's like start with a template. OK, how do I like, you know, put an image in here? This is just like purely hands off. So like really, really impressive stuff. All right. On the chat GPT front, two things. Chat GPT officially rolls out CPC pricing with average CPCs in the three to five dollar range. So moving along the continuum of making their ads more available, more performance based, more competitive with the other platforms. No real surprises here. I mean, I think we all said all the smart money said the exact same thing when they rolled out like the sixty five dollar CPM. It was that this is just get money fast. They're building product. It's going to look like Google search. You know, no surprises. The surprises are the people who reacted badly and said, oh, open AI has no idea what they're doing. You imagine a CPM price. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just wait three months. Exactly. Chill out. Yeah. And speaking of CPMs, there was a leaked, I'll say quote unquote leaked. I don't know if it was like leaked internally or somebody got all of it. deck with StackAdapt, who I guess is a partner of ChatGPT, has CPMs quoted in the $15 range. So no more 60 in the marketplace. So it's kind of rolling out as we thought it would. Yeah, nothing too exciting here. I think on separate news, I'm not sure we have this anywhere, but Kevin Wheel left OpenAI. So he's an old longtime ad tech guy who got promoted up, up, up to head of product for Instagram. And then I think it was briefly head of product for OpenAI. Then he turned into a different role and now he left. So OpenAI has a lot of staff turnover. Yeah. I mean, that's part of the game. People stuff. So Magnite. A lot of people living. Yeah, some shuffles at Magnite. So Adam Soroka, certainly friend of the pod. He was head of product. He departed. CMO David Hurtog departed. and chief strategy officer and head of corp dev, Eric Hovynak, departed. All public, all, you know, putting their stuff out there on LinkedIn. Interesting when three C-level execs all depart. Yeah, and I think they had all been there a long time, right? So this is not a case where the company has a lot of turnover, like some other companies. This company has had an exec team. Adam's been there for like eight, nine years. So it could be a natural evolution. I think, you know, the question of Michael Barrett going to be there forever or is there some future CEO going to be there? It's interesting. I'd love to. I think the other shoe hasn't necessarily dropped here. Yeah. Yeah. One to keep an eye on. But yeah, you're right. These are all three like awesome execs did a lot of great stuff there from the days of the Rubicon. I know Eric was the architect of a lot of the M&A that created Magnite. So look forward to seeing where all they move on to, what they all move on to rather. Fluency, who you had on the pod, I think it was Monday? Yeah, we had Fluency on Monday. It was a good conversation. And they just hired another friend of the pod, Eric Picard, who was the head of product for Pandora. He'd been at Microsoft Ads back long ago. Interesting to keep a rely on that company, I think. Yeah, agreed. They're doing some neat stuff. One thing we missed last week that I thought was interesting and apropos of having Jonathan on the pod this week. So Netflix, their ad revenue, again, is set to double in 2026 to $3 billion. And Eric Sufer picked this up. 50% of the revenue is programmatic. So they're continuing to climb. $3 billion is a legit ad business. Yeah. Yeah. And as I said earlier, over half of people signing up for Netflix picked that ad plan. We have them at about a third of all U.S. subscribers now on the ad plan. So it has become a major part of their business for sure. And I think their integrations are broadening. I think they have four or five DSPs now who can beta in. A couple aren't in there, and I've heard complaints. People saying, why can't we get Netflix? But I think their strategy is to expand that. People come to you with all their complaints. They do. because they think I can solve their problems and I can't. Here's an example. So I get the most common thing anyone ever reaches out to me about, cold reach out, is like, hey, I want to get my SSP integrated into beeswax. Can you put me in contact with the guy who's in charge of that? And he's a really nice guy many of you know named Matt Clark. And I text with Matt Clark all the time. He's a friend of mine. Matt Clark has me on standing orders to never, ever introduce any SSP to him. It's the only thing he's ever asked of me. He, he, he, it is a standing order, no exceptions. And it's the only thing anyone ever wants for me. And so I, I have to tell them like, no, uh, you're on your own. The dude's name is Matt Clark. Go LinkedIn him and spam him, but he will ignore you. And I will not help. Jonathan, do you get requests for TTD integrations? I think, well, I do get a few of those. I think I get more requests for, uh, introductions into the recruiting process. Yeah. Yeah, I get that too. Yeah, for sure. All right. I think with that, we should call it a pod. This has been a good one. Yeah. You got something, right? No, this is a great conversation. So, Jonathan, thank you so much for being here. You're the co-founder and CEO of Antenna. Where can people find you? Sign up on Antenna for a free newsletter or something? LinkedIn? You know it. Antenna.live. L-I-V-E. All right. I remember the name because beeswax actually launched a product called antenna at the exact same time you did launch your product. And we didn't have the URL either, but your product was a lot more successful than ours. Appreciate that. We had that trademark lawsuit ready to go to exactly. Well, we'll see you on Miami probably. So stop. Say hi to Eric or Jonathan. You can be in Miami. I'll be there. All right. I'm a proud possible investor. All right. Sounds good. Thanks, everybody. Bye-bye.
