She Had Elon’s Baby. Then, the Leopards Ate Her Face.

Okay, we have Mr. Fruity, Miss Onion, and Miss Former Fox News. This is starting off great. Hello, hello, and welcome back to A Bit Fruity. In February 2025, I made an episode of this podcast called The Incoherent Sexual Politics of the Right, which centered largely around a then 26-year-old conservative influencer named Ashley St. Clair. Ashley had spent years building an online audience of over 1 million conservatives who followed her for her hot takes on transgender people, building the wall, single mothers, the erosion of the traditional family, and all manner of right-wing slop. Sorry, Ashley. I gotta keep it real. It's honest. In 2021, Ashley wrote a transphobic children's book called Elephants Are Not Birds. You can kind of guess what that's about. Her conservative media career was ascendant. Last February, though, Ashley's life had just taken a wild turn. She'd announced to the world that she had just had a baby and that the father was Elon Musk. At the time, Elon had essentially ghosted her, and Ashley took to Twitter to plead, Elon, we've been trying to communicate for the past several days, and you have not responded. When are you going to reply to us? My guest on that episode, Moira Donegan, said that Ashley made what was called a patriarchal bargain. She offered her career and her body to a movement that promised her a secure place within its ranks. But then it didn't. As Moira said, we can sort of assume that somebody in Ashley St. Claire's position thought that being with Elon Musk and by extension, having a child with Elon Musk, you know, which we know that he very much wants. would grant her a degree of security and status. You know, she thought that she was making a deal, right? And what we see with Elon Musk is that he immediately did not hold up his end of the bargain, right? Like she sold her soul and didn't get paid for it. In the years since then, things have taken turns that I personally did not expect. Ashley went completely offline to raise her child and avoid harassment from Elon's lesion of fanboys amidst a custody battle that she is still fighting. At the request of her harassers, Grok, Elon's generative AI toy, posted fake images of Ashley undressed in front of her children's school backpack. She's in court trying to get such images banned. And Ashley's also pivoted heavily in her politics, notably trying to make amends with the trans community, which we'll talk about at length today. She wrote on Twitter last week. Wait, actually, Ashley, do you want to read this? I feel immense guilt for my role and even more guilt that the things I've said in the past may have caused my son's sister more pain. I don't really know how to make amends for many of these things, but I've been trying incredibly hard privately to learn and advocate for those within the trans community that I've hurt. I also haven't said much on this because I've gone back and forth over whether or not my voice would be helpful on the issue, since it will be framed as disingenuous or just turning because I'm scorned. Even this reply will become right-wing hysteria, but yeah, I am sorry. Let me know how I can help. Today, we'll interrogate all of this together. I could not have imagined saying this one year ago, but welcome to the show, Ashley St. Clair. Hi, thank you for having me too. And to help us do this today, I'm also so excited to be joined by the one and only June, who you might know as Juniper or Onion Person or At Can't Ever Die or Pudding Person or any of the online names she's used to avoid Elon's continuous attempt to ban her from his website. On her Wikipedia page, she is labeled as being known for Twitter shitposting, which is absolutely awesome. But she is also the host of the Kill the Computer podcast and the Ill-Conceived podcast. And she was the person that Ashley was writing to in that apology that Ashley just read to you. June, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I think first and foremost, before we get into anything, I think both of us have like a little bit of like preface questions for you, Ashley. Yeah, so I think I think to start because I didn't expect to be here talking to you at all, having this conversation. Why are you here right now? Like, what brought you here? Because when I saw your reply, I wanted to answer it honestly. It is something that I hadn't addressed, and I meant every word in my reply that I had been wanting to address it, but I didn't want it to become the right-wing hysteria that it has been. And I was very aware that it would lead to a litany of other issues, which it obviously had. And I that's why I'm here, because it was on my heart and I wanted to get it off. You read your response to my question, which was about your previous bigotry against trans people. I think that was like a pretty brave thing to do. So you knew what would happen. You knew that all these people would swarm in. And I saw that it was like very heartfelt and very reflective that you had sort of thought about this for a while, that you sort of observed some past behaviors and sort of reconvened. Thank you. And I knew there was going to be arrows from both sides. So there's been this narrative that I'm doing it to grift or whatever, but everyone hates me after that response. I will let you know. So it's not been advantageous. The right hates you because you're not transphobic anymore. And a lot of people on the left don't believe you, understandably. Which totally fair. Yeah. Yeah. And I was well aware that this would not be advantageous to me whatsoever. But I also think becoming a mother, I've just I've really wanted to take public accountability for anything that I feel I've done that's unempathetic or wrong or what role I played in it. And there's certainly a lot more eyeballs on me, whether I like it or not. And I feel like an immense obligation to use that responsibly and show some humility. So that's why I'm here. I think this episode is important to make because ultimately I want to believe that people can change. If I if I didn't believe that, then like, what's the point of any of this? and I want to give people space to reflect and grow and maybe see themselves in you. And at the same time, many of the listeners of the show are queer. And the turn that this country has taken on queer issues over the last few years is not a thought exercise for us, especially those of us who live in red states, especially those of us who are kids who don't have like legal autonomy. It's a lived experience with consequences. And those listeners are going to have varied reactions to what you say. And I hope that you understand that. And I think that you do. And that's totally understandable. And I don't blame anyone. I'm not going to get upset if people have some vitriolic reaction towards what I'm saying right now. That's understandable. And I get it. Matt, you and I, if I had to guess, this is the first time we're talking. But I think you and I are both optimists in a sense that we assume that if people see the harm that they cause people, which let's be real, a lot of conservatives, including you in the past have caused a lot of damage to people that there is like that room to reflect. And I'm curious, I don't remember where you said this, but you said that you want to see a kinder world for your kid than you like saw the world becoming. What was like the moment that like it clicked in your mind that you were like, oh, my God, what I am doing is contributing to like this like hate tsunami. Was there like a specific moment? There wasn't really a specific moment. It was just, I think, cumulatively seeing so much vitriol and seeing people within my own life who were being impacted by that. And I know, you know, people can be upset by sometimes it's like, well, I had to experience it to feel that empathy. But that's unfortunately how it is sometimes. And I just I was thinking about my children's reactions to some of these things. And if they ever spoke the way that I had spoken in the past, I would be so disappointed in them. And especially when I got off of the internet, and people would resurface old tweets of mine, or, you know, post quotes from me, I really would read them like with a disassociation. Because I was like, that's not who I am. Like, I can't believe I said those things. That's never who I've been privately. And they would just read honestly kind of sociopathic and really unempathetic, just mean. And I was like, I just really want to set a better example for my children. And we're definitely going to get into some of those posts and where you were when you made them. Because like I said, I really am interested ultimately in like understanding how to get people out of this mindset, whether they're making money off of it or not. But first, I want to start at the beginning. As we do on this podcast, we always start with a little early life. Could you tell us about where you grew up, what your family was like? Did you have like conservative parents or religious parents? Is that where this starts? They were not particularly political. I was born in South Florida and my parents got divorced during the 2008 crisis. So then we moved around a lot. You know, we were in South Florida, which was very diverse, to then this little town in Alabama where it was not diverse. And I saw a lot of ideologies I was not used to. And we moved around from there to Pennsylvania, to Montana, Maryland, New York, Colorado. So we were kind of nomads growing up, but I'd been homeschooled in high school. And because I was homeschooled in high school and we were in a little town in Montana with 250 people, there was nobody there. I was just on the Internet in rather provocative parts of the Internet that, you know, it was very funny to be provocative or say things that were offensive. And it was this anti-PC culture and very much the feminism is cancer culture. You have nobody around you. My only friend was like a Mennonite lumberjack in Montana. I wish I was kidding. And then you go to college and you find the groups on campus that are political and you start tweeting and you find some sense of community. I mean, it strikes me because like so many young people who are isolated for any number of reasons resort to the Internet. Yeah. To find community. Like I had more than 200 people in the town that I grew up in in New Jersey. But because I was gay and because I knew that I was gay so young, like and I don't know if this is relatable to you, June, but like I took to like gay parts of the Internet really early. Like I was on Tumblr and I was also in like provocative, you know, like where did Tumblr take you to like eating disorder and self-harm blogs? And that was really destructive and unhealthy in its own way. But like I wasn't on like, you know, doing Nazi shit. I would say I wasn't doing Nazi shit. Just because, you know, I am Jewish. But it was it was definitely a fringe part of the Internet that I found myself in, unfortunately. This is something that I am very curious in, just how, especially these days during COVID, but especially post-COVID, a lot of people sort of rely on the Internet these days, even more so than in the past. Do you think it was in part like a loneliness that drove you to these more provocative aspects because it got you attention, because it got people to notice you? Oh, definitely. Definitely. Especially when you're in that like adolescent phase. And that's kind of all you want is some sort of sense of identity or attention and belonging. And, you know, there's times where I convinced myself that some of these ideologies were, you know, convictions of mine. But I think deeply there was a deep insecurity and vulnerability in me that I had to work through for many years. But absolutely, you want some sort of belonging or identity and you want to be liked. Every young teenage adolescent wants to be liked. When did your sort of online provocateur type stuff start to align specifically with like conservative politics and like the Republican Party? That was more like right when I was like 18 and going to college. Before it was like right wing adjacent because it's that provocateur anti-PC. It wasn't quite political. It was just more provocative, which was right wing adjacent and then ended up getting absorbed by that right wing movement in 2016. But it wasn't overtly political until about 2016. In college, you start posting a lot of conservative content online. I went back and looked at your content, Ashley. Like many right wing influencers, a lot of it centered around posting videos of queer people or activists at protests, like protesting things like ICE or people wearing masks in 2020 and kind of making fun of them. You used the terms crybaby liberals, triggered liberals, and deranged liberals like hundreds of times. Hundreds? I don't think it's funny. I really like I know that it's caused harm. But also it's like I'm laughing at my own psychosis that that is the reality that I posted it hundreds of times. But as you can imagine, that also wasn't very original language. So this is actually what I wrote in my notes here, that there are so many people who post that sort of content online. It's very cruel and it's also incredible for engagement. Did you feel passionately that these people you were posting about and were making fun of, that they deserved the things that you and your followers were saying to them? Or did you just enjoy the engagement and attention? Take me into the mind of 19-year-old Ashley. Most of the time when you post a video of some random person at a protest, you're completely disconnected from the personal affect on that individual. I don't know what the affect was on any of the individuals I posted, and that I feel immense guilt over. You're completely disconnected. It's just this content machine where you're pointing out things that at the time seem absurd and you're very swept up in this machine that makes things appear more radical than they are. And so I think that's what it was. I was also very when you're being fed that content, that's your reality. And then when you see that content, you're like, oh, my God, it's true. Everything they said is true. You know, this is the way the world is. It's so crazy and everyone's losing their minds and we have to stop the radical left. And it's very much this pathology that kind of distorts your own perception of reality, I would say. so at the time you would post like i don't know a video of like a flamboyant gay person or or like whatever it might be that the right those days was was melting down about i i guess i'm just curious because whenever i interact with like most people or just anyone even if it's someone that's like politically opposed to me i want to like consider like how they feel just the average person you know like we might disagree on some things i i guess what i'm curious of is like you it never crossed your mind for years that you might be harassing or personally like harming or like putting people down in a way that was not helpful? No. And that's something that I had to really reflect on for quite some time and recognize that there were so many individuals along the way that I hurt. You're within a movement that also frames it as this is evil. You know, they want to corrupt the children. Look, there's one person being particularly provocative in front of children at a pride parade. And that's used to characterize everyone under one flag. And that, to me, when you're in it, I perpetuated a lot of harm with that. And you don't realize it sometimes until you're out. I guess one thing off of that, sorry, this might be jumping ahead of your outline a little bit. June, don't ever apologize to me. Oh, she's not. She's apologizing to me for my organization purposes. I'm jumping ahead. But I'll just, because I feel like it's on topic. So I'll bring it up now. You're sort of saying that it did feel like sort of like world ending, you know, like ever, like all of these things. It's like, oh, corrupting the children in this like right wing movement. Do people actually genuinely care about like trans people or gender issues or even the one that in particular I cannot understand? Are people on the right, like especially in these radicalized spaces, do they really care about the word cisgender? Does that actually bother them? Yes, they believe it's a slur. And I've repeated that at times. times. To me, it was also realizing that there was this hyper fixation on the trans community, and they're always using it under the guise of we care about women and children. And at no other point in any of their other platforms, do they ever care about women and children. In fact, they're incredibly oppressive to women and children. So when you do realize that, and you are a woman who has children, you're like, oh, wow, you guys, this is incredibly performative. and you're scapegoating one of the smallest minorities in the entire country to make something a national issue that is not an issue at all. Ashley, like I said, I was going through some of your tweets, and I have to point out, not entirely on a lighter note, but like I said there were so many deranged liberal tweets There this one from July 29 2019 It a selfie of you Sorry I know you cringing if someone not watching the video version of this podcast but it is kind of funny It's a plain selfie. You're wearing a MAGA hat. You're beat. You're beat with, like, real Republican makeup. Like, you are in it, sister. Can you tell I've changed my ways and my makeup is better, okay? Your makeup is better. Your makeup is better. you're sitting on this plane wearing the MAGA hat and you caption the selfie wore my MAGA hat on the plane and made it out alive a true accomplishment in the world of deranged liberals i wanted to be oppressed so bad well apparently because a few months later you are it's a tick tock and you seem to be in a room against a blank wall wearing a MAGA sweatshirt and holding a photo of a stylized portrait of donald trump how did you find this i thought that was good Baby, you got to you got to clear your Twitter out. It says the TikTok liberals are mad about this one. Laughing face American flag emoji. And also in a similar time frame, it seemed that you were on a boat, a boat tour going around Manhattan, waving a huge Trump 2020 flag from the boat captioned on a Trump boat driving by NYC with flags sure to piss off all the Manhattan liberals. the rioters will have to swim pretty fast to catch us laughing face and anyone listening to this regardless of whether they've seen your specific tweets they can recognize this content because there's so much of just like trigger liberals content and it seems devoid in and of itself of any particular ideology other than wanting to make other people mad was that something that you like woke up and thought about wanting to do or was it like you opened your twitter app and it's like it's time to go to work. Did you get adrenaline out of it? I feel like I should have put Savi on Blanc instead of water in my bottle right now. I could use a Savi B after that. No, it was very much like you want to trigger the libs. You're like, oh, look at these triggered libs. That's how you kind of won. You're like, you know, you find a triggered lib and then you're like i won here we go and it's just very stupid and adolescent and absent any intellectual prowess there was no critical thinking within any of those at all well this much is this much is evident uh no shade but this is just a minor question but it's regarding like the syntax in which you like spoke in some of these old tweets and pretty much all your old tweets and seeing how you talk online now it's like a totally different world you you seem like a normal like you you don't talk like a bot or or like every other right-wing influencer is there like a syntax that everyone is like this is the way we have to speak does it come down from the top where does the syntax come from is it is it talked about in these spaces at all it's not really talked about but it's kind of implied you know, nuance isn't really great for engagement. And I think at that point, I found myself stuck in a cultivated audience of MAGA boomers. So they expect you to talk like them. My content flew on Facebook. It flew. I mean, the people who would come up to me were all like 50-year-old men who were like, thank you for your hard work for this country. That's wild. And there was like very much this thing. They're like, you're really out there. You're pushing back on them. And they like, you kind of feel like a soldier for a minute. You're like, yeah, that's right. That's your Vietnam hat moment. Yeah, you have these men coming up to you who are wearing veteran hats. And they're like, you're doing great work for this country. And I'm like, thank you, sir. And so it really feeds the delusion. I like like my stomach feels ill after that. OK, well, I'm not reading any tweets for a while, so you can breathe easy. As you can see, if you are watching the video version of this podcast, Kitty has taken over the hosting chair today and what she wants goes. So we will be doing the ad read from the floor. I wanted to give a shout out to this show's longest running sponsor, Blueland, for sponsoring this episode of the show. It's a new year, out with the old, in with the new. So why are you still using cleaning products that are full of unnecessary plastics, have bulky packaging, and stack up to unnecessary costs? Listen, I know it is hard to break the routine of buying the same products that you're used to over and over and over again, but I do think that Blueland is worth changing things up. Blueland is a line of sustainable home cleaning products that is on a mission to eliminate single-use plastic by reinventing cleaning essentials that are better for you and the planet. The product itself is simple. All you do is buy one of their beautifully designed forever bottles, fill it up with water, and pop in a tablet for whatever cleaning solution you bought. Let it fizz into the water, use it, and when that bottle is all finished, you just fill it up with water again and pop in a new tablet. And those tablets start for as low as $2.25. So it's not just better for the planet, it's also easier on your wallet. They also have these great plastic-free laundry pods, which I'm about to use when I do laundry right after I finish reading this ad. If you would like to try Blueland, you can get 15% off your first order at blueland.com slash fruity. That is blueland.com slash fruity. Now let's get back to the show. I want to take it back to a sort of more human place because while you're tweeting all of this stuff, you are very, very young. You're like 18, 19, 20. I know 2019 is the year that you became an ambassador for Turning Point USA with Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk's incubator for young right wingers, you're still in college at this point. And I was looking through some documents related to this, and you were a speaker at the 2019 Young Women's Leadership Summit. This just struck me, because how can you be like a young leader in a movement that you've been part of for less than a year? So the right wing does a fantastic job of cultivating influencers and giving you events and things to go to and things to make you feel important, even though you're not. I had no authority. Nobody should have been propping me up at all. But they did because it was very useful to an agenda. And it took me a long time to realize that I actually wasn't important and that I was a useful idiot to people who had much more sinister and self-serving agendas. And the right wing is very good at that because all of a sudden I'm tweeting for a few months and now I have my own special graphic where I'm like, hey, guys, come see me at this event. And I think simultaneously at that time, the top profession that kids said they wanted to be was a YouTuber. And so there is kind of that everyone wants to be an influencer. I was very into like watching the Carly Bibles and the beauty influencers of the world. So I think that's attractive to especially a teenage girl. How did you even get involved in Turning Point to begin with? Like, did Charlie come to your school? I don't remember exactly how it started, but I was involved with the Young Americans for Liberty chapter on my campus and then the Turning Point chapter on my campus. And then I met Charlie shortly after that. And I was invited to these events and they would find my stuff online and invite me and add me to their influencer programs. programs it just kind of snowballed yeah i mean they they are really good sadly i really fucking hate that the right is really good at this because democrats are not as good at this in terms of propaganda where you know riley gains is probably one of these people where they're like we got to get her for this thing or like even more recently samantha fulmecki at i think oklahoma u where it's like useful pawn for the culture war for the political movement and they will prop that person up and give them everything. You mentioned you were homeschooled in this tiny town for high school. Do you think that being absorbed into this world so quickly once you got to college, like beyond any sort of ideological beliefs you held or didn't hold, like did the community element draw you in faster than anything else? Because that's kind of what it seems like for a lot of these people. Yes, especially since I missed like a lot of community and event milestones like prom or anything that, you know, the typical high school student does. And then I'm being invited to these things. I'm cool. I'm people like me. And that's that's something that I missed in high school that I think was certainly attractive. And especially since I had started out like in the Young Americans for Liberty, more libertarian. You know, we all need constitutional rights and free speech. it was very easy to be co-opted and say, oh, well, you know, it's the logical extension of some of these ideas to take on a more conservative role. And especially when I'm just forming an identity. Which is ironic, of course, because all of these same people are the ones who are now cracking down on civil liberties for everyone in this country. That's absolutely right. And I also want to address perhaps a small elephant, but not bird in the room. hey no it's actually we're not at the book yet the elephant that i want to address is um is you're pretty thanks well i mentioned that because this ecosystem of right-wing media has a penchant for young traditionally attractive right-wing women it's also very dominated by white men i don't know Like, what was the gender dynamic there? That was one thing that I was privy to very early on, that it was very much a good old boys club. And there were a lot of young girls that I kind of tried to guide and tell them, hey, you know, you're in this. We're in the good fight, but you're in you're in a man's world and you need to be careful and you need to just keep your head on a swivel because they'll they'll eat you whole. And that was that was one of the things that I was always aware of very early on, because I very quickly was in the room with prominent individuals and the dynamics I saw in which women were abused or they were assaulted and they couldn't speak up because this was, you know, like the anti Me Too party. And I was someone who had been a victim of sexual assault. So I had been viewing it through that lens as well. And I was always really uncomfortable with it. But you're kind of you're convinced out of it. You're convinced out of what your your lived reality is and that your lived experience isn't important. What's important is the facts. What's important is the economy. And we can't be derailed by this woman's measly experience and put it aside and compartmentalize it. I think that played a big role as well, especially when I had my first son and I'm labeled the single mom as a slur. That played an immense role as well. I've watched other interviews you've done. You know, you said that when you started doing conservative activism, you advocated against, for example, like most conservatives do, social programs, mainly for the poor, like Medicaid, while you were still on your dad's health care plan. And I think a theme that someone could identify through a lot of your politics and then this arc that you would eventually go on is that, you know, you didn't really care about certain issues until they showed up at your doorstep. That would be accurate in a lot of regard. I was going to say in some regard, but in a lot of regard. I also, however, not but, but however, I think that's unfortunately how it is for a lot of people, right? We see this with Renee Good. And there were a lot of people who didn't necessarily see the brutality of ICE until it was an American citizen. And they could see themselves in Renee Good's position. And it sucks that that's the way it is. And I'm trying very hard to move past that and say, why didn't I see those issues until it impacted me? And I'm sorry for that. What I can say is I do consider myself to be an empathetic person and that I'm trying really hard to understand what I missed before and why I disregarded a lot of those things. And I will also say that if I was only self-interested, you wouldn't be hearing from me right now. I have taken a lot of arrows in the last year because I have recognized that I couldn't sell my soul because that would prevent me from helping a lot of people outside of myself. if I just wanted to help myself, I'd be very materially comfortable and I wouldn't be speaking to you right now. And that's a story that hopefully I can tell at a later time. But I want everyone to know that at least in my actions, I'm trying very hard to make amends and I can't discuss that story in its entirety. But I've done that because I recognize the broader harm of me staying silent and taking certain opportunities that were offered to me. For those who don't know, and Ashley can't speak about this in her own words right now because she's still in this ongoing custody battle with Elon Musk for her child. But it was pretty well documented in a long form Wall Street Journal essay that Elon essentially with all of the women in his life uses money as sort of a cudgel for abuse and for people around him to behave in a way that he likes. And that's advantageous for him. I think a lot of wealthy people do that to a certain extent with the people in their life. But you can imagine the richest man in the world to the greatest extent. And so, Ashley, when you say and I know you can't comment on those things directly, but, you know, a lot of people I would imagine are going to comment on this episode as they have on other tweets that you've made about how, oh, well, she, you know, she was kind of ousted from the right because she ended up becoming a single mother and they turned on her. And so now she's trying to grift to the left. the funny thing about grifting to the left is that not a lot of it's not a lot of money in it let me be let me be very clear too i ousted myself from the right i was very aware of the consequences of being honest i knew i would be in a place where i was maybe in the place i've been most comfortable my whole life being a nomad and you know finding comfort in in that spot this is all to say like, I believe you and you could be a very convincing talker, but you have made a series of decisions that lead me to believe that your intentions are good. I mean, again, I can't speak to the entirety of the sacrifices I've made, but I, it has not been easy. And I was very aware that it wouldn't be. And I think just for myself too, just to be very honest, because back and forth leading up to this interview, you know, we've talked a little bit in the back of my mind. I'm like, what if, like, you know, what if the intentions are bad? What if this is like a, like an infiltration or I, you know, I don't know. I kept going back and forth, but it was, it was one of those things where it's like, it would be so much easier if there was any sort of bad intentions to just sort of sit down and sort of be in that sphere still and just sort of not talk you know it also hurts me that you even have to consider that and i did to be completely honest i did at first not like personally but like in terms of like my broader impact of things that i've done like it just hurts me that um anybody has to feel on edge when they receive an apology or like and i contributed to that and like i am so sorry it's okay and like i said i i do believe your intentions are are good as well it was just that at first i was like oh i know and that's a lot of people are gonna feel that way and again like i i get it i get it it's a common story that you of course touched on here is that like you don't understand or sort of switch your perspective on things until it happens to you. Because like, from my perspective, for some context, I have been super politically minded and active since I was in high school. From a fairly early age, I realized I was bisexual. And then shortly after that, I realized I was trans. So in the back of my mind, I was always like, and this was before gay marriage was legalized. This was when Fox News was bringing on pastors being like, the Bible says you can't have, it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, you know, the classic bullshit. So like I saw this world around me and, you know, I tried to be being the good politically minded person that I am, the addicted, you could call me addicted to politics in a sense. But like, you know, I would argue, I would talk to people I disagree with. And it's very rare that that would change their minds. What would, of course, change people's minds is having something happen to them. I guess my question is, was there ever like when someone would talk to you, because I'm assuming you had a lot of these conversations, someone would be like, you know, these politics that you support, these politics that you're talking about right now are materially harmful to people in my life, maybe even myself. Did that ever like, like it's something in the back of your head ever like twitch? Were you ever like, or did you just sort of like, you were in that ecosystem, you were in that sphere, you sort of like, you know, it's that's not important. No. And I think that why it so important to have the conversations and still say it to people in a way that they can be receptive to Because even if I was initially defensive when people would say things like that to me it was in the back of my head And especially once I left it I would revisit some of those conversations from people who had said, hey, the things you're saying are harmful and revisit those and say they were right. And I have to figure out how to make amends for that. And I'm very early on, too, in recognizing and deconstructing exactly why I acted that way and said the things I did. And it's really painful to unpack that. Especially probably in front of multiple people. In front of millions of people. Yeah, yeah. But I also think it's helpful that even if I don't always say the right thing right now, that I hope people know that I am on a genuine journey to deconstruct what I was in and be responsible with the voice that I'm given now. So the least I can do right now is think out loud. Yeah. During your time as a right wing influencer, you tweeted passionately about a lot of things. Sometimes you fixated on the queer community. You said that any person who opposes the Don't Say Gay Bill looks like they need their search history checked. You can search my history. It's looking for new indie cat food brands. It's probably... Guys, I'm trying to keep it light here. Come on. Your search history is probably cleaner than Benny Johnson's. Oh! Hey! Yep, yep. you said of a family-friendly event that was taking place at the New York City LGBT Center that our tax dollars were hard at work grooming kids you also said I really was scrolling through your tweets Ashley you you said on the night of the 2020 election when which famously took a very long time to call you know what joke you made I do not I don't know that I want to hear it okay so i actually liked i liked this one ashley so you can breathe easy i'm like holding my breath you wrote the total gender count might hit 270 before trump or biden does i gotta be honest not bad that's not a bad joke if you ever wanted to do some stand-up that's like something to work with you know if you weren't coming from the anti-trans angle there like if we made that frankly like that's a very good joke yeah she doesn't know what to say oh man i'm sorry i i don't know i was really stupid i think there's probably also i don't know if you've recognized this going through my tweets and not to say that i didn't tweet horrific things But I think there was at least a mild, mild change in some of my posts after I had a child. There was. There was. You started to call into question publicly why there was so much fixation on trans issues around 2024, which is when you had your kid, I believe. That was my second child. That is what I noticed. And I think it was even before your second child, too. I had my my older son in November 2021. With a different father. Yes, yes. After I had my first son, there was a shift, and it was kind of like, well, I'm in this. This is my career. I dropped out of college. What do you do from here? I think the most noticeable shift, though, was with your second child. It seems like even before he was born, you started to—I found this one tweet in particular, just looking through some of your backlog, which I thought was really interesting, because it was before you had your second child. You said that the Trans Day of Visibility has been on March 31st since 2009. Joe Biden has also issued a proclamation for it in 2021, 22 and 23. Nobody did anything to anger Christians Easter Sunday. Anybody saying this should not be taken seriously now or now or ever. And you're sort of going at it with some conservative who, what I would say, grifters. And the replies and finding that I was like, huh, that's interesting, because that is actually sort of before when I would have assumed you sort of took a little shift or like a little pivot away from some of the previous type of posts that we would have seen from you. It's weird to say because I did the math, but this was when I believe you were pregnant with your second child. Yeah. And there was a shift over the years that it took me, and not that this is an excuse, but it's the reality. It took me a long time to find the courage to even start sprinkling some of those realizations because it is it is a lot to to face that backlash. And, you know, maybe all of us right here are used to it. But a lot of people aren't. And it can be immensely painful and it can take a toll on your mental health, too. And it can be dangerous. And there's the pushing back against your own past. It's like, oh, I spent years committing myself to this, it's like a sunk cost fallacy where you're like, well, I've already invested all of this time and my public persona into this movement and to go back on it. Well, now I look like a fool. That's why so many people, including, I think, Elon Musk and a lot of people I talk about on this podcast, JK Rowling, they can never concede that they're wrong because it's hard to concede that you're wrong. We are back for another ad read with the sleeping princess Kitty. Hey, kitty how you doing that's good baby and i want to shout out rocket money for sponsoring this episode it is a new year trump sure as shit hasn't done anything for affordability and it's time to think about how we can budget responsibly in 2026 budgeting is something that my dad has always instilled in me and even when i thought he was being really annoying about it he as always was right. Shout out to you, dad. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. The app is really clean and easy to understand. It gives you a dashboard where you can see all of your subscriptions and repeated expenses in one place and helps you cancel the ones you don't want or need anymore with just a few clicks. It's a really easy and accessible way to just feel like you always have a handle on exactly what money is coming in and out, you know? Rocket Money has over 5 million users and saves them an average of $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. If you'd like to start canceling your unwanted expenses and grow your savings, you can head over to rocketmoney.com slash fruity. That is rocketmoney.com slash fruity. Now it is time to put this sleeping princess kitty back to bed. Nope, she never woke up. And get back to the show. I do want to talk about Elephants Are Not Birds, because this is actually, Ashley, when you came onto my radar. In 2021, you wrote a book called Elephants Are Not Birds, where you put your name on a book that was written called Elephants Are Not Birds. I don't know if you wrote it. You can let me know. But Elephants Are Not Birds is a transphobic children's book that, according to the description provided by the book's publisher, quote, tackles the topic of gender identity. In it, we follow Kevin the elephant as he learns that even though he can sing, he is not a bird, even if culture insists that he is. One of the phrases on the back of the book says, can a beak and wings make an elephant a bird? Pretty clear what that's suggesting about trans issues. This is something that you published, profited off of, and has impacted the way that some parents raise their kids, which we'll get to in a second. But first, I talk a lot on this podcast about the right-wing media ecosystem and how it's primed to financially support and incentivize someone like you to stardom with things like bigoted book deals. So from sort of like a business background, like peek behind the curtain perspective, Can you tell us about how this book came to be? I cannot, unfortunately, with the terms I had to come to with the publisher when we removed my name with the book. But I can speak to it's very attractive when you're just getting started. It's the same thing as when you get invited to a turning point event. You so want to be validated as this intellectual and someone who's respected. And then, you know, you get a podcast deal or a book deal. And that is kind of an opportunity for you to solidify yourself as, hey, take me seriously. Look, other people take me seriously. I have deals. I, you know, but again, I don't really have much to say on it except it was wrong. And I've taken steps so that my name isn't on it. And when the opportunity arises, I do plan on making financial amends because I did make money off of this. And that's. That's that's it. And I can't unring that bell. But I can. Try my best. what i will say is i think taking your name off of the the publishing for the book is definitely a step though that is that is a good step away from i think the impact that this book did have it of course will always have that impact it did have which is really unfortunate and i can't unwrite i can't unwrite the book you know i can't take it off the shelves like legally or business contract wise, you're not able to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of the impact that the book has had on parents, because, you know, this to me and I'm sure to June, like we were once queer kids who had to grow up with parents who, you know, when you're queer, it's an uphill battle inside your own family. It is. You have to hide things. I mean, I had to hide things. I had to hide aspects of myself because I wasn't sure. I wasn't comfortable. Yeah. And so I want to stress, Ashley. Oh, Ashley's cat is in the mix. Okay, I have to ask most important question. What's what's your cat's name? This one is Leno. My son named him. I was like, Leno, like Jay, what do you mean? And the other one's name is George. I don't know where George is. Well, welcome, welcome, Leno. And if you get uncomfortable with any of our questions, you can pass the questions off to Leno, I suppose. So I want to stress that I'm not asking this as a gotcha. Yeah. Or because I have a fetish for making you feel uncomfortable or anything. I really don't. Understandable if you do. No, I actually, you know that I don't. I'm so glad that you've grown, obviously, a lot in your thinking about this. But in getting ready for the episode, I was asking myself what meaningful accountability looks like, you know. And one thing I think we need to do is grapple with the impact that this book had on parents of queer kids, you know, like June and I. So I wanted to read a few Amazon reviews of the book, almost all of which are very positive. And here are a couple from Desk Mouse. Review title line, this kicks Dr. Seuss's ass, which is which is high praise for your writing, Ashley, I'll give you that. Seriously, as a dad who wants his children to grow up right, this book was right up right was right my alley. great job on the story and the visuals patriots at brave books you are giving our next generation the tools so long desired by parents in the new right from dragon cute and covert i bought this book hoping to covertly guide my kids things are complicated in this family oh my god jesus christ from cce modern day truth in all caps love this book and all the other ones that go right along with helping us teach children true facts from an unnamed amazon customer absolutely lovely book i bought this as an adult and i love it that's fucking weird and actually i don't hold you to that one but no there's some odd reviews all talking about like you know this is a covert battle against evil i think some of these are you know the same people who were coming up to me and saying, you know, good job, soldier. But can I ask you, like, in plain terms, you've participated in and profited off a cycle of bigotry that queer people are often tasked with breaking in their own families. You know, now you have your own kids and queer people in your extended family. And I'm really curious, on like a very human level, what would you say if you could to the parents that you influenced with this book or parents, you know, in that world. I was no point of authority to be speaking on this issue. And I hope that they take a similar journey to me to listening to voices that they have been told are off limits. And I hope that they teach kindness and acceptance to their children. And I hope that they find kindness and acceptance in their own hearts for their own children. And I'm not quite sure how to make amends. I've gone back and forth privately, publicly on what the right way to do that is. Even just speaking out has cost me much more than any money I made on that book, materially, monetarily. What I'm most looking for is voices within the communities that I heard to tell me how I can make amends or what would be helpful because I don't know how to be helpful. For many years, I have obviously not seen reality. And so I really would like guidance on how to do that. I mean, just from a quick gut check, I mean, I think what we're doing right now with this conversation having it and subjecting well maybe not subjecting yourself to because i think you this is like something you need to do but i think having this conversation and reflecting in front of a lot of people i think is helpful i think you know doing what you've done with the book taking your name off of it is also really good but i also think it's very important that like and this sounds silly but as we've both acknowledged that there is the fear of like oh ashley's just doing this to clear her name and then she's going to start a left-wing grift i I think it's very important that you don't like make like a new YouTube channel and you're like, this is my new world and this is my new like new me, new me. Like, I think it's very important that you don't like and you've and to give you a lot of credit, you have done a very good job of this so far is you're not centering yourself. You're not centering like your own struggle, which, you know, is you've been from speaking out. You have been going through a lot. And I think what is respectable is and this is just more broadly. Whenever people sort of get under attack for whatever reason, even outside of politics, people tend to take the route of getting very defensive and blaming a lot of other people and not like reflecting on someone's own actions that led them to this point. And I think it's just important to continue that. Not to center yourself is a very important thing in a way that like it seems like you're pivoting to something, you know. My goal is to use my platform to provide a platform to people that I ignored their voice. Because, again, you guys are propped up on my LSAT study books right now and my law school admissions Bible. My goal is very much to have a career in law and advocacy. And I'm not interested in starting a new left-wing podcast. I'm interested in truth, whatever the cost is, and having a very public struggle session, because I think it's important to show that humility because so many of these people are afraid to. And say, hey, here's my genuine struggle with these thoughts within this group that I belong to. Something I actually do want to needle in a little bit more is actually your politics. politics. I think it's very clear that you've genuinely shifted on trans issues. And the reason I prompted you that, like back that original reply that you read off at the start of this episode, the reason, of course, I'm trans. But the reason I usually start with trans issues with these conversations is we've seen time and time again, people who are like nominally liberal, and then they become transphobic, and then they become MAGA, and then they get that syntax, and then they appear on Fox News. So it's like, for me, transphobia, it's transphobia and a couple other topics that are good tells on someone's overall politics. So I guess what I'm curious about is, obviously, I think you have shifted a lot on trans issues, but what other issues have you shifted on? Would you say you're a liberal? You said you're always a political homeless person before you sort of ended up in this world but like what are your politics like what's an issue to you that's like you used to be like oh i am like super trump i'm super republican that you're sort of now like you know maybe like the left sort of has a point on this is there anything like more than like ice or or like trans issues i think there definitely is because what the trans issue and they've made an issue. Absolutely. Yeah. What it's really indicative of is how misplaced priorities are because your life is not materially impacted by such a small percentage of the population and what they're doing individually. What we are impacted by is these levers of powers, which for better or worse, I had immense access to, and they don't have anyone's best interest at heart. They're destroying this country. And every one of us is collateral. Some communities more than others because they easier to scapegoat or make fun of But what I very interested is taking back this uber elite lever of our country that since the 70s has really come to power and made everyone below them in their economic class less valuable Because politics has inevitably become about how much money you have. You have more free speech if you have more money. And we do not have the same access to participate in democracy if we don't have the same amount of dollars as everyone. And so I guess I've been particularly fixated on the class issue and reading some of the things I wasn't supposed to. And recognizing how some of these struggles that I ignored, they're important because they didn't go away. and they do apply to those who are ignoring it. And if they think they're not a part of that oppressed minority, they very much are. They hate you just as much as they hate the trans community, as they hate women. And so I think that's been an evolution for me, particularly as it relates to the uber-capitalist. I mean, you saying class war now is music to my ears. That's what I love to hear. Ashley St. Woke. I do. You know, when I was going through this, I think inevitably when you recognize a class issue, a lot of these other issues that are so sensationalized become more clear. Absolutely. And more of a distraction because the accounting of the plantation never stopped. The Silicon Valley bros would be very proficient in plantation accounting. Hmm. And that's really important to recognize, especially as we get, you know, not to get too meta about it, but especially as I was immersed in this world where AI is taking over, it's like the final terrain of extraction. There's nothing left to extract. There's no more labor to extract. And now they're extracting everyone's thoughts and our desires and our souls. And that to me is like incredibly existential. And everything is secondary to that. that the system we created, capitalism is eating its host and it's incredibly suicidal. A hundred percent. You know, a lot of these rich people, the way they use these wedge culture issues, that shouldn't be, but the way they use them, it's once I feel like you are enlightened, like just go on Twitter. You can go on Twitter right now and see, you know, like Mark Andreessen posting some bullshit. Like it could be any. I can't go on Twitter. I'm being sued by that. honestly, that's, I de-respect. Well, well, so let's get into that then. In February, 2025, you post on Twitter a statement. Five months ago, I welcomed a new baby into the world. Elon Musk is the father. I have not previously disclosed this to protect our child's privacy and safety, but in recent days, it has become clear that tabloid media intends to do so regardless of the harm it will cause. I intend to allow our child to grow in a normal and safe environment. For that reason, I ask that the media honor our child's privacy and refrain from invasive reporting. Now, I know you can't get into specifics around custody and your family. I'm not here to ask you to do that. But I do want to mention that in the wake of your going public about giving birth to a child that was also Elon's, there was a campaign online by right-wing men, including Elon, to smear you as the sorts of things right wing men often smear women as. I watched this happen at the time. That's when I made that episode. It's still ongoing every day. You were called every misogynistic slur in the book by thousands of men at once. You were, you know, all these sort of misogynistic allegations that men always make about women. I mean, there were conspiracy theories around you plotting to, you know, get this man to have a child with you. Like I said, I know you can't speak to specific things relating to that as you're still battling for custody of your child, a child which according to publicly available information, this is coming from my mouth, not Ashley's. Elon has only seen a total of three times with each meeting being very brief. But when it comes to the harassment situation, What was it like facing this onslaught of harassment by a group of men that included the audience you spent years building? They're going to have to try harder. Someone has recently decided to say on a certain podcast by a certain admin official's wife that he believes in the creator and he's all of a sudden religious. And the only thing I have to say about that is you should pick a god and pray. hmm i'd be remiss not to mention that you have spoken out against single motherhood when you were in your right-wing influencer era in 2023 you applauded vivek ramaswamy for quote calling out the system for incentivizing single motherhood three fire emojis and sorry ashley in 2020 you wrote uh if women get to have the right in quotes to an abortion men should have the option to not pay child support. Again, I'm not trying to bring this up for the sake of having a gotcha. I just want this to be meaningful. And I think you have a really powerful testimony in terms of how self-defeating these ideologies are for anyone who isn't a wealthy white heterosexual man. And so with that in mind, the big question, do you ever feel like the leopards ate your face. Oh, yeah, they did. And especially like if you take the abortion and child support tweet, that was me trying to be clever and reworking a Dave Chappelle bit. You know, I was just so unoriginal. It's never, never a good thing to try to do. No. And, you know, I also feel immense guilt because I was raised by a single mother. And, you know, and she went through so much. And it wasn't until I became a mother that there were other things my mother experienced that recently a few months ago I called her I said you know we had we had lost my younger brother I'm so sorry and I called my mom like a couple months ago because you know I've now been through postpartum twice and I said you know mom I'm really sorry that no one told you you were doing a good job because you had to go through postpartum without a baby and And I feel like guilt for anything I said that hurt her, too. And other women who, you know, were struggling. And I'm now facing those same struggles. So you can call that karma or whatever you want. But I think it's just sometimes things really have to hit the fan for you to realize how impactful your words are. unfortunately. But the most I can do is help other women now that I wasn't helpful to in the past, because if it's this difficult for me and I'm privileged and I had resources, like what is it like for everyone else? They don't really have a shot at all. So that's the best I can do. And I'm hoping once I have ESQ after my name that I can make amends for that issue in particular. Can I ask a little bit more about, because you said you wanted to get into law. Yeah. What was it in particular? Is this like a recent thing? No. What inspired you? Thank you for that question. I always wanted to go to law school. I had originally gone to college for philosophy because it's the third best major for law school outside of math and economics. And then I got involved in right-wing politics and the side that I repeated these points, don't go to college, you don't need college. And if I can do anything, too, to make amends, go to college. Do not listen to me. You should absolutely go to college and get your career sorted out. So now I'm just going back to what I always wanted to do and trying to rectify my life from when it went towards the direction of other people's agendas instead of my own. And trying to meet my younger self where I lost her. With that in mind, you are sort of entering your legally blonde era, which is a much better look on you, if I may. Over the last few weeks, a lot has happened in the world, in your world. In the wake of your posting an apology to the trans community, which we read up top, Elon, who's obviously devoutly anti-trans, announced that he is seeking full custody. He wrote, I will be filing for full custody today, given Ashley's statements applying she might transition a one year old boy. Obviously, you made no such statement. And I know you can't talk about that. Absurd, absurd thing. Fucking absurd. Absurd. And this is coming from June and I, not Ashley. Yeah. If I was the judge, I'd be like, all right, let's get this. Let's get this over with. Throw this out. If I was a judge, maybe I should be a judge. And Ashley, you are free to not say a single word, but I am truly wishing you all the luck in the world in that because I don't think Elon should have custody of a fly. But another battle that you've been fighting and one that you can speak to is against AI deepfake pornography on Twitter. When I pitched you to come on this podcast, I promised that I would give you a space to talk about this fight. And I would love for you to tell everyone about it. Yeah, so there's, for those unfamiliar, most recently, XAI Twitter caught themselves involved in a little scandal because their Mecca Hitler robot decided that it was going to undress women and children and distribute this publicly via the verified Grok account. This happened to me as well, and I was very outspoken about it. It continued to do it, and I am now suing XAI. And in our suit, we speak about the reason for this lawsuit being that there needs to be a broader protection for women and children who are affected by this. And so I'm hopeful that there is some regulatory action that can happen as well, because this is out of control. I'm not sure how many women and children need to be undressed before people turn the faucet off, but we're fighting it. Yeah, because my understanding is basically that so Grok, if you're not on Twitter or X or whatever, it's Twitter's AI tool. And then it introduced Image AI. And immediately, I mean, Elon even tweeted like, you can put a bikini on anything. And it was like a joke he put where it was like a bikini on a toaster. But he was obviously gesturing out like you can take the clothes off of any picture of a woman. And then amidst all this controversy, I think it's like being banned, but only in places where there are existing laws against this type of image generation, but not everywhere. I think the UK is the only one currently that has any sort of regulation against XAI on it. And I don't even know if it's gone underway quite yet. It was blocked in Indonesia and Malaysia. Congrats, Queens. It was only geo-blocked in places where it's illegal, which is horrific, because if it's horrific enough to be banned one place, why can't it be banned everywhere? They are using women and children and the abuse of women and children as collateral for I don't know what. These are questions for people who are paid to do this. This has been horrific to me. I've been talking about this a lot, too, with Grok and its image generation. And you were talking earlier about how a lot of these Silicon Valley tech people are using AI to extract even more from us. And now they're even against people's wills, extracting other people's bodies, women's, children's bodies from their own consent. There is no consent. There cannot even be currently within the system that Grok has, of course, set up. They are they are trying to extract everything. And it's so fucking disgusting. Yes, that's the entire populace is becoming slaves to a very small amount of people. And the whip has simply been replaced with the invisible hand, all in the name of, you know, we're propping up the stock market on all of these things. And we got to beat China. And everyone is reaping the consequences. And I think the end result of that is going to be the destruction of us, you know, and, you know, at some point, it's like, did we deserve it? we're the only other species that causes other species to go extinct, you know? And so I think that also applies to ourselves. I think we're playing a very dangerous game, and there's no unringing that bell. And I think it's so telling, too, that people like Elon, the people running these systems, XAI, are sort of gloating that they can do this and that they seemingly endorse it. I think to me that's just, I mean, it's disgusting. It disgusts me. I want to conclude with just a couple finishing questions. Ashley, what would you say to other people who are still ideologically in this world that you left behind? And I think particularly women, because we know that a lot of young women were seduced by the promises of fascism in 2024. Be brave. It'll eat you too. And I hope that you find the courage to leave. and it may be painful at first, but it'll be a storm and then it'll pass. And you will. There's one thing I want them and my children to know is that you should never choose being materially comfortable over doing what's right. And there is a misnomer about the superheroes and the good guys in the movies that if they do the right thing, everything works out and they get the girl and everything's OK. And it's not. It's actually really, really painful to do the right thing. And I. You're going to suffer anyways, so please choose whether that suffering is worth it. Then my final question, can you commit to putting out a new children's book called Elephants Might Sometimes Actually Be Birds? It's complicated, but listen to them. I think there might be some issues of legality with there. I don't think my former publisher would be too happy if I published that. All right. Well, June and I will work on it. Yeah, we can switch it from elephants to sea lions or something. We can make it very legally distinct that they won't even know. They won't know what's coming. A book where we just affirm Johnny the walrus from Mount Walls. No, I really I appreciate you guys having the conversation as well. And I hope that it's helpful. And I know there's times where I'm going to feel like I'm disjointed or I'm trying to collect thoughts. And it's because I am like this is still very new for me to unpack a lot of the things that I've been a part of and recognize and take accountability. And I just hope that a few years from now, I can help make a difference in a way that's impactful. And anything you guys need, I'm here. I just, I hope that it's in the end a net positive. personally i think so like especially in the moment that we're in in 2026 with donald trump with what i think is very clearly a fascist state at this current point for a while i've been thinking back to like 2016 where and and i think i of course uh engaged in this at the time there's all that hesitation to be like you voted for trump once you're always going to be bad and i think you know if we're if we're going to get out of this basically i think there should be room to have these conversations and reflect. And I think there needs to be more intention if we want to get out of this fucking mess. You know, like we need to have these conversations with people like you that were in this. Yeah, and we're going to a point where it's going to be very hard to turn this back around. And people need to recognize, are you the party that hates government overreach or not? You know, all of a sudden, now you guys are bowing down and bootlicking feds and saying this is all okay, and saying it's okay that we don't release the Epstein files. And I hope they recognize who they're protecting. Yeah, because it's not themselves. No. Ashley, thank you so much for being here today. Where can people keep up with and or support your fight against Grok undressing women? Don't follow me. just keep up with the news on grok and xai and if it's happened to you too i implore you to call your representatives and take action and it's going to be harder for them to fight if everyone who is a victim is speaking out and june it was such a pleasure to have to do this together where can people because they absolutely should find and follow you everywhere could you remind people where to find you yeah thank you for so much for having me on for this uh this this was great also very nice to to uh to meet you but you can follow me uh you can follow my shows kill the computer and ill conceived you can find those anywhere that you listen to podcasts and i i work for the onion support the onion hell yeah you can follow me on blue sky or twitter if you want but honestly get off social media it fucking sucks but yeah no just uh just those and if you made it this far in the episode i am so grateful to you this was a complicated and thorny and personal one that i am really glad that we made i hope after the edit and all of our sentiments are ever so slightly polished uh that it it comes through how meaningful this was to all of us and hopefully it is to you too i love you so much and until next time stay fruity