Inside America’s Most Chilling Alien Abduction [UFOs in Allagash]

The Allagash Lake. We're up there for the experience, for the pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness. What happens when you get back to camp? Well, we looked on the other side of the lake and here's this sphere of light. And it's moving like a balloon moving very, very slowly. What the hell is that over there? When I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it. How so? So I looked at it through binoculars and then as soon as I got them in focus, the light went like that. Like a lens closing in on itself. And then it was right behind us and I was like, oh Christ, we are not going to make it back. Keep going! Don't look back! And then I'm struggling to get up and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes and they began a clinical examination of me. So you were laying horizontally. What did the table feel like? Very sterile, an emergency room setting in a way. What did the beings look like? A bulb was head with large eyes, no nose like us, slit area in the chin. Are you freaking out? Freakin' out beyond freaking freaked out. Do you know if you have RH negative blood? I do. There you go. And then they came for me. I was terrified. He kind of like reached up in the air with his long thin articulated arms and he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened pocky puck. And they put one on the outside of each one of my shins and then I couldn't move my legs. Oh my God. On his legs for several years hair didn't grow there. It was like a bald patch on it's way. Really? And his identical twin brother Jack had tumors growing in the exact spots. Didn't even get a damn t-shirt. No souvenir. Existence cannot longer be denied. Jim Weiner, Charlie Foltz, thank you both so much for being here. I have followed your story for many years and so it's an honor to be in person with you both. You guys experienced something absolutely remarkable and kind of mind blowing in 1976 in Allagash in Maine. Yeah on the Allagash water system. And it was you two and it was your brother. His identical twin brother Jack. And another guy. And another guy, another friend. And okay so let's set the scene. What is going on in your lives at the time? So you're in your mid-20s. Well I was a college student at the time. Going to college on the GI Bill. And my goal at the time was to become a school teacher to teach art to children. So I was a dual major. I was printmaking and photography. So I figured during the three months where I wasn't teaching, I could do artwork to supplement my income. Well that was where I was with my education. Jack and Jim had just graduated from Mass College of Art. I think that year, the year before. Jack did. I didn't go to, I wasn't at Mass Art at that time. At that time I was at the program in Artisanry, which was a crafts program being run by Boston University and Benjamin Franklin Institute. And so you guys are both artists. What are you? All of us were artists, all four of us. All four. And what are you like, personality-wise? Are you guys sort of irreverent and rowdy? Or are you sort of humble and quiet? Yeah, we're average mid-20s, you know, males, you know. We were enjoying the experience of the wilderness. We had started planning a trip the previous year, acquiring gear, just slowly accumulating all the gear that we would need, plus the meals ready to eat type of prepackaged food that we brought along with us as well. And you guys were pretty good outdoorsmen, right? You had some skills when it came to just kind of surviving outdoors on your own. Yeah, kind of. You grew up fishing out in the country, you know, doing fishing, camping, that sort of thing. Where did you live at the time? Was it in Maine or in Massachusetts? No, we were living in Boston. Yeah, I was going to college. I was living in Brookline actually at that time. And the twins were my next door neighbors, literally, just on the other side of the driveway was their house. So you guys have known each other for a very long time? Over 50 years. Yeah, over a half century. Yeah, I mean, at that time I was studying ceramics at the program in artisanry. I was working with two amazing potters. One's name was Bill Sacks, who was a potter in western Massachusetts, out in West Hadley. The other one was a guy named Rich, what was Rich's, Richard Hirsch, who was a master raccoon potter. And are you guys best friends? Oh yeah. What, him and me? Yeah. I don't know this guy. Sounds like a one-way situation. Yeah. Evil brother. Sorry, Jim, you got the short end of the stick here. Yeah, it's okay. I'm used to it. So you guys are, clearly there's a lot of prep work that goes into this trip. You guys are kind of, you know, figuring out the food situation. Yeah. What equipment we needed, what clothing, being prepared for the weather because it was at the end of summer. And as you may or may not know about New England weather, Mark Twain said, if you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes, it'll change. And the weather up there at that time was abnormally hot and dry. It was one of the hottest Augusts at the end of the year that they had had. So we had gear for the next level degree of coldness was the primary gear that we had. We, as I said, had climbed Mount Katahdin two days prior to beginning our canoe trip. And when we were climbing up the mountain, I had to take my blue jeans, I had to take a knife and make them into shorts because we were so soaked with sweat from climbing the mountain that our clothing or mine was like grabbing me and restricting my movements. Hiking and jeans, never a good idea. Well, that's true. You can make them shorts though. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you got innovative. So I think maybe one of the most interesting parts of this whole experience that is kind of inextricably linked with it, you can't kind of separate it is just the landscape of Allagash itself. Oh, absolutely. It's beautiful up there. Describe it. Well, originally the Allagash water system, which is now a national park system, was originally part of the logging industry. Prior to logging trucks going out into the forest, you sent teams out in the forest, they would cut the trees, put them on the lake, float them. And that was, they were moved down the Allagash River all the way to like Fort Kent and Allagash, the village of Allagash. And then that was where they would get out on the St. Lawrence, is it there? Or St. Francis? St. Francis. St. Francis. Yeah. That separates Canada from the US. And they would run the logs down there. We ran in on our very last day of our canoe trip. We met an old logger. His name was Harry Smith, really interesting character. Told us a lot about the early logging days and log jams and what you had to do to unjam them. And that was incredibly dangerous because you had to get out there and pry the logs loose until the water could grab them and get everything moving again. So the Allagash system still has part of an old railroad that they would go in to the forest, load up with lumber or logs and take them out that way as well. And now it is all just a recreational environment. Yeah. It looks very primitive. I mean, you don't, at least when we, the places we were at, you didn't see cuts, you know, areas that were clear cut or anything like that. There's no houses along the lake. It's all just wilderness. I mean, gray herons are flying over all the time. You see moose, deer, bears, all kinds of wild life stuff. You have to make sure you keep your food stuffs off the ground. You have to tie them up in a tree somewhere off a branch so the bears don't get at them. The rangers come every day to collect your trash, so that doesn't lay around. The other thing you have to do before you even go there is they only have designated campsites, and so you have to tell the rangers when you... What your itinerary is. What your itinerary is, like, so in case you go missing, they have an idea of which campsites to start looking for you. And they come and check you. You land on the lakes when we flew in, we flew in a bush plane. Within minutes, two rangers came and they come and they check your gear. They go through your gear to make sure you're not carrying any kind of contraband, because the aligash runs into Canada. And they check to make sure that you have enough food and camping things to survive up in the wilderness, because we were there for, what, two weeks? Yeah, 17 days on water. So they're pretty strict about who they let stay on the waterway and pass through the waterway. And if you're not out at the end of, like, the 17 or 18 days, then they start trying to find you. Had either of you experienced anything anomalous in your life? Had you? Oh, yeah. You had? Yeah. Yeah. You described? Yeah. We used to sleep in the Allentown area of Pennsylvania. We used to have these things happen at night in our house where we'd be sleeping in bed. We both shared the same room. And we'd wake up in the night and there'd be something pulling the covers off our beds. Or we'd see figures moving around in the room. We saw balls of light floating through the house on a case. Did you ever communicate with any of these? Oh, yeah, we did with our parents. And they used to say, oh, you're having nightmares. Did you communicate with any of the beings or the... No, no. We went straight to the bottom of the bed. Scared. Scared shitless. And you guys thought it was a ghost, didn't you? Harry the ghost? Yeah, we used to call him Harry the ghost. Used to call our names sometimes. Like I'd be in the room doing something and I'd hear this, Jim. A real deep voice. Jim. Jim. And I thought it was... I always thought it was my father. Was there any history either to the house you were in or to your family? No, my father built the house himself. Anything around your family experiencing paranormal stuff prior to this? No. But my parents saw a bean in their bedroom one night. Okay. A hooded bean in their bedroom one night. A hooded bean. Which we never... I never knew until Ray Fowler interviewed her. Whoa. And then she reported it to Ray. So she wasn't open about it with you? No. She was open about it to Ray Fowler. She was open about it to Ray. We'll get she, but he's a... Never mentioned it to us. Wild. So, you know, we used to have like to be like knocking on the walls at night when we tried to sleep. And if you go into our basement, we had a... My father had a little pool table in the basement. So family members, he had a large family, brothers and sisters. They would come to the house every other weekend or so. Back in those days, families like that's just what they did. Super random question. But do you know if you have RH negative blood? I do. There you go. Yeah. My dad did. My dad did. And you did too. And your dad did. No, no. My dad. Not you. Your dad did, but you did. You do have it. Yeah. Jack and I both have RH negative. That's fascinating. Because that's a commonality among the experiencers. This missing protein that seems to, for whatever reason... Interesting. When we were like six years old, we both broke our arms like within a day of one another. When you have identical twins, if something happens to one twin, you wait a few hours, it'll happen to the other one. It's like some entanglement system. Yeah, it's like definitely entanglement there. Anyway, we had both broken our wrists. Opposite arms too. Opposite arms. Same fracture location. In those days... Literally entanglement. Yeah, in those days, doctors came to your home. We had a family doctor that would come to your home if you called them. And so I was in just unbelievable pain. I was in unbearable pain. So they called the doctor and the doctor came to the house and he said, well, I'm just going to knock them out because if you can't handle the pain, I mean, I was flipping out. So he gave me a shot of something to knock me out and a minute later, Jack goes out cold. I don't know exactly what AG1 is doing in my body, but I do know that my microtubules are online. I'm not saying I can feel the force, but my chakras have definitely auto-aligned. In fact, I used to think I had seven chakras just like everybody else. And then I drank AG1. Now I have 50. Just kidding. But I did used to wake up feeling stiff and groggy like my brains on airplane mode. And then I started one habit. One scoop in eight ounces of water. It's a multivitamin, a prebiotic, a probiotic, and with its adaptogens, it's the only green powder I'd ever bring to a skiff. Shout out Chris Ramsey. I take this in the morning and it's the easiest upgrade I've ever made. My favorite flavor is berry, but honestly, they're all good. AG1 has over 50,000 verified five star reviews and comes with a 90 day money back guarantee. Go to drinkag1.com slash alchemy to get their best offer and get three free AG1 travel packs plus free vitamin D3 plus K2 and AG1's welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's drinkag1.com slash alchemy. Again, that's drinkag1.com slash alchemy. We're linking that in the description. Thank you so much to AG1 for sponsoring today's episode. Jack goes out cold. I'm sitting there and the doctor, they actually wrote it up. He wrote up a report and they wrote it up in one of the local newspapers. And shortly after that, these two guys showed up at our house and they wanted to talk to my father and mother and they claimed that they were from some institute somewhere that was studying twins and they wanted to take Jack and I away to study us. What institute? I don't know. Is it called the Roundtable Institute? I don't remember the name of it. Do you remember where it was? It may have been Duke. Duke, the Ryan Institute. It may have been the Ryan but I'm not, don't quote me. But anyway, this was, we're seven, late 50s. Yeah, well, the Ryan Institute ended in 1916. Anyway, my father freaked out and literally threw them both out of the house and said, if you ever come here again or if I ever see you around my kids again, I will. What's fascinating because that time in history was when children started to be tested in programs that were kind of adjacent to MKUltra but also, they were interested in UFO stuff too. There was a guy named Andrej Puharic. I don't know if you're familiar with him but he was an early kind of architect of MKUltra. He was a Northwestern scientist and I think he was a medical student there but just got very interested in consciousness. He had a place in Ossening in upstate New York and he recruited what he called the Space Kids and it was like a camp for high psychic ability children and they would often channel these beings. They would call the nine, these sort of alien entities. The first set of what really were the Space Kids were younger. Some of them were seven years old, up to 12 or in teens. Interesting. So I wonder if you were being tracked by something. Who knows, maybe they were tracking us. Did that eventually evolve into Montauk? So Montauk, I believe was, yeah, I think it would have been around the same time. I think it would have been in the 50s, 60s. But I believe there was this machinery they found at Montauk and blanking on the name of the author of the book, Preston something. I had the book at one time and I've given it away already. But that sort of, I mean, that whole Montauk experiments which we now think are probably real inspired stranger things. Stranger things is Hit Netflix Show which is around the DOE and national labs basically recruiting children and doing psychic tests with them. And 11, this character in Stranger Things which is like the biggest show in the world right now is based on this. So I do think, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. So maybe they were trying to recruit. They may have had something to do with it, but my father didn't like these two people at all. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify is specially designed to help you start, run and grow your business with each of these easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there, integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups online in person and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. Yeah, I don't blame them. So that happened when we were kids. And then in 1973 in the spring of 1973, I was attending Mansfield State College in upstate Pennsylvania. It's almost on the border of Pennsylvania and New York State Teachers College. And I was an undergraduate there. And they were involved in this project with beavers because they were having problems with every time a big storm would come through, they'd have a lot of flooding. There was a river up there. I forget the name of it, but it would flood and ruin everything. And so they decided what they were going to do was parachute beavers into the countryside all around it. It's really up in an area of Pennsylvania that's really wild. In fact, they filmed the Deer Hunter movie. Is that the name of it? Yeah. Deer Hunter. Yeah, that's where they filmed it. It's like you can walk for 75 miles in any direction up there and you don't see a single house. It's really primitive. Interesting. Anyway, so they got me and two other friends of mine up there involved with this. They parachute in beavers. They parachuted in beavers. Yeah, they parachuted in beavers to build beaver dams to control the water table, which I thought was a great idea. Because how else do you get into the water table when there's nothing there except trees and forest? And so what we had to do, myself and my two friends, and they had other students doing this, was we had to go out into all these old logging roads and whatever and find beavers. And put them in a database. So I was out one day with these two friends of mine and we're driving around a little VW bug. We're driving around looking for beavers. I don't think we even found any. But we were coming back and it had just become nighttime. And we were driving through some pasture. It was this huge pasture with two tractor ruts in it. We were driving and it was dark. So it was, but up there in that part of Pennsylvania, it's what they call the night sky places where you can go out and look at clear skies. It's like we're... Virgin black. Virgin black. There's no light pollution. And so we were driving across, we were lost. And we were driving across this pasture, this huge pasture. And on the end of the pasture, there was a tree line. And so we were going towards this tree line. And then I noticed, I looked up above the trees and I noticed there was this group of stars that looked like the little dipper, except they were moving. And they were moving in a really strange way. It was like, instead of like just going in a constant... Plane. ...pace or plane, they were tumbling like a slinky. They would, this whole, they were maintaining the dipper shape. There was probably six or eight of these lights. They looked like bright, bright stars. But they were tumbling end over end. And it was coming like right down towards where we were. And then we were like, I was like, what the heck is that? So I stopped the car. I said, we got to go out and look at this thing. So the three of us got out of the car and we're watching this thing and it's just walking out of the sky like right for us. And then all of a sudden out of nowhere, this car comes opposite us on this tractor rut. So we're like, oh Jesus. So the car gets around us. And then at one point it was like on a hill. And when the car lights went up, it hit these lights up in the sky. And then they stopped coming down towards us and they started going parallel to us. And while they were, they kept maintaining this tumbling thing, except they were, then they were changing shape. Like they were, like they would go in, at one point they were like a V shape. And then another point it was more like a Meeba type shape, but it just kept tumbling end over end the whole time. So I said, let's signal it because it was only a thousand, maybe 2,000. Wasn't that far up in the sky. And so I had a flashlight in my glove compartment and I took the flashlight out and I blinked the flashlight. And all of a sudden one of these starlight lights like went off like a big amber flash bulb and it's like turned into like a tube of light, almost like a blob of toothpaste, kind of light came out of it. And then it did a couple more tumbles and then it just, this is the first time I've ever seen anything like this. It was going like this tumbling and then all of a sudden it was, it just reversed. It didn't stop and wait. You know, one blink of an eye, it just stopped and then reverse, it just reversed itself. And then it walked back up into the sky and disappeared. That was in 1973. Fascinating. Yeah. Wow. So that was a year before, or that was three years before this Allagash event. So you had had like this whole kind of backdrop of anomalous experiences, multiple. Yeah, except we never, we never subscribed them to UFOs. UFOs. I mean, you grew up in, you know, I was a grew up in farm country in Pennsylvania. You're just like ghosts or weird ghosts or, you know, lights in the sky. You know, it could have been, you know, helicopters from what I mean, you know, I mean, I didn't know what it was. And so nobody talked about UFOs and those, you know, I grew up in a family that was conservative. Very conservative. So like we didn't talk about ghosts unless something weird happened and then my friends say, oh yeah, that's Harry, don't worry about it. It's only Harry the ghost. So he would casually, he would dismiss it, but he would casually get a name for this ghost because that's how much it would appear. We called him Harry. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So you guys, let's cut back to 76. You guys are at Allagash. You know, sort of beautiful landscape. Sounds like they have a rigorous protocol for kind of onboarding you, you know, to camping out there. You get there. At what point do you start canoeing? Well right after we climbed Katahdin, which was the first three days we were in northern Maine, went down to Milanocket and got some supplies, then climbed Katahdin, broke camp the next morning, took the supplies we had purchased in Milanocket and we drove north and east of Baxter State Park to a outfitter at Shin Pond. And at Shin Pond, a friend of ours, in fact, the guy that came down this last Saturday, we were using one of his canoes, a friend of ours named Charlie had lent us a Grumman aluminum canoe for our trip and had taken it to Shin Pond and this guy had had it strapped to the pontoon of the airplane. So he would take two passengers and the gear for those two guys and a canoe. That's all you could put in that little plane besides him. I had a Volkswagen Beetle, had a far more complex instrument panel than this airplane had. I mean it was as simple as simple as it could be. You got a choke, you got an oil pressure gauge and you got a gas gauge and that was it. We had two canoes, the one that our friend loaned us and then we brought another one. Rented one, yeah. Describe your first anomalous sighting on the canoe. Well the first sighting we saw of it was on our second day on the lake system. We were on Chamberlain Lake and that was a lake that runs north-south and we were going north and we were trying to get up to the Allagash River or the Allagash Stream which flows in from Allagash Lake and that is totally primitive up there area. The only way you can get up there is by polling up the river and we didn't know how to poll but we attempted paddling and paddling but didn't do us any good. However to get back to the first sighting, we had passed two teenagers on our way north and they were fooling around on a little island and we got up to this site called Mud Pond and we didn't want to camp with other people. There were people across from us in a sheltered area from the wind and we had decided to take this one spot but when we got up there the wind was like just coming down on us like crazy and we were like we don't want to be dealing with this all night long trying to put our lean to shelter together because all we had was a big tarp that we used as a tent you know because you can use tarps for multiple purposes and we were using it for shelter and as well as keeping our gear weatherproof. Well at any rate the weather forced us across the lake where this other group of campers were and they had asked had we seen these two kids we'd seen earlier and we told them where we had seen them and so they were getting worried because you know there's two teenagers member of their group and it had gotten dark by this time so out there it's so black at night you can't really see your face. You can't see your hand this far in front of your face. So we were out with them as well looking with our binoculars across the surface of the water seeing if we could find them and they ended up taking the campsite that we had abandoned and a member of this other group said what the hell is that over there and we looked on the other side of the lake and here's this sphere of light and it's moving like a balloon moving very very slowly but it's like moving into this wind so I'm trying to figure out. It's just about the tree tops. Yeah I was trying to figure out what the hell is that but then we spotted these kids and so okay and we looked back at this light and it wasn't there so. Well I looked at it through binoculars because it had when I saw the light I noticed it had a weird quality to it. How so? It just didn't look right to me. It wasn't like a pure white. It was more like a yellowish white and it was just something about it that didn't seem right to me so I looked at it through binoculars and then as soon as I got them in focus the light went like that like a lens closing in on itself and then it just vanished and I thought well that's kind of weird but I didn't think anything more about it because we had to set up camp so you know it was just this weird light but I had never seen a light do that before like just implode in on itself. Wait 48 hours. You'll see it again. And what was odd which we didn't know at the time but it was like the direction that it was in line to us was over Eagle Lake. The area that we were camping at two days later. So it was almost like it was where you were going. It was like patrolling that area or something. Patrolling the area that's interesting. That reminds me of when you hear Commander David Fraver from his 2004 Nimitz incident and he says you know we were you know dispatched to go check out this tic tac object and then the tic tac was already at the rendezvous point that he was going to next. It was like they sort of know your intent or some of your trajectory. Yeah something or it had been there for a while because there was a there was a witness a logger who had witnessed the same craft up in that same area that they were logging. Fascinating. Okay so you guys kind of you know note that this is anomalous but you don't you try to kind of you know keep moving forward. Yeah well I mean we're not there to see a light disappear in the night sky. I mean we're up there for the environment for the experience for the just pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness. What happens when you get back to camp? Well well that night the first night we saw it nothing. I mean we just turned in got up the next morning and continued our canoe trip. That was when we tried to get up to Alley Ash Lake. Do you guys even talk about the first sighting? That? No not really at all. No okay. I mean it was like I got bit by a mosquito type of a thing. So you probably said something when you were looking through your binoculars right? Yeah I said well this is a strange light and when it kind of winked out I thought well that's kind of weird but I mean maybe it was a helicopter. Maybe it was a balloon or something and that's just the way it went. Right okay so then the next day after that we had canoed up. Tried to get to Alley Ash Lake but found it impossible. We had spent like eight hours trying to go upstream until we got to a point where we said well we're not even at halfway mark. We turned around and it took us about 15 minutes to go back down to where we started. So we set up camp right there on the river that night in this camp location. The following morning is when we canoed down to the Eagle Lake portage area. So it was a three quarter of a mile portage that we had to carry our canoes and all of our gear. So how we rigged it is that we lashed two poles that ran perpendicular to the canoe and then the four of us would just pick up the ends with the canoe in between us and then walk the canoe over to the other lake, went back and retrieved a second canoe and then got out on the water and we were going to camp at Pillsbury Island. That was our goal. It was kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake towards the southern end of it. But there was a canoe about a quarter of a mile in front of us and that is where he be be lined straight too. So we're like, well we don't want to camp with other people anymore. So we went to our secondary which was Smith Brook Camp site. We set up our camp for the night and then we decided hey let's try and catch some fresh fish so we can supplement and have a fish meal or something. So we built a fire because it was getting dark. So we built a fire that we knew would burn for close to three hours and went out on the lake and we had to navigate through standing trees, logs in the water and it took us maybe about 25-30 minutes to work our way through all this obstruction to get to the site that we were fishing at which was maybe about 500 yards from our camp site. Yeah, we were all in one canoe. Charlie was at one end of the canoe. The other guy was at the other end. Jack and I were in the middle. So all we had was paddles and fishing poles and that was it. You know, and a flashlight. So I'm setting up in the front of the canoe and you know, we're having no luck at all fishing when the other guy goes what the F is that? As you know, we have a new starship. Course we have a healthcare center on board. Ask what my new favorite product in it is? Irestor's Illumina Face Mask. Some billionaires are rejuvenating in underground light pods. 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Right now you can get the Elite Plus Illumina Face Mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code Jesse at irrestor.com. It's Jesse, J-E-S-S-E at irrestor.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. What the F is that? So we all sort of like turn and look toward the back of the canoe and I see this Aspern tablet sized white circle and I'm thinking that is the freaking moon you moron. But then I noticed that it was moving and it was moving faster than moon moves. It's moving at about like this speed right here and it's hundreds of yards away from us. And so we just sat there bewildered looking at this thing and then it kind of like makes a left turn and then it starts coming straight toward us. Totally silent. Yeah. So we're watching it and watching it and then we notice as it gets closer the tops of the trees are illuminated and this thing is only about 15 feet above the tops of the trees just coming straight toward us. And when it was about less than a hundred yards away from us directly across I thought I wonder what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS at it. So I had one of those square battery flashlights with the handle and the push button. I put my hand over the lens turned the light on and then I three short three long three short and then this thing stopped. I mean it just no sound whatsoever just stopped moving and all of a sudden this big cone of light blue light like a neon blue but it looked like a giant glass straw. You know it looked like it was open a void in the center of it or something. And this light starts from the bottom of the sphere coming out across the lake toward the canoe and that was when I realized the sphere was coming with it at the same time. This thing was big. It was as big as a two story house. Oh yeah. It was like huge. Wow. And how far away is it was like a little under a hundred yards from you. When I flashed a flashlight but when I dropped the flashlight it was about 75 yards from us and closing. Wow. And so do you think it reacted to this SOS flashlight. Yeah. Yeah. And it came closer. Yeah. And all I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming paddle Charlie paddle. And as I said if I could have ran across the water like a Jesus Christ lizard I would have been doing that. What emotions are going through you guys at this point. Well I was terrified. Self survival. Self survival. It was like weird. I do not want to deal with this out here. I don't know what this is but I know as much as I really want to know at the moment. Because it was you know it was big. Yeah. It was huge. Yeah. And you're like oh that's not a helicopter because it was absolutely silent. Yeah. And up there. It wasn't disturbing the trees or the water. I mean you can hear a loon a quarter of a mile away. Yeah. And this thing didn't make any noise at all and it had this weird kind of life to it. Like it was roiling. The surface of the light. The surface of this thing was like roiling. It was alive. It was like it was some sort of plasma. Like a plasma pressure. Yeah. Pressure cooker. Yeah. Yeah. Something going on inside. Yep. Well you know what one of the things that impressed me the most that I recall about it was you've seen halos around the moon right? Sure. This thing had a halo around it as well. As it approached us you could see the definition of this halo and the the sphere itself was you know in constant motion. Yeah. And I remembered you know you're like paddle. Well the other guy with us he was just like catatonic. He just sat in the with the paddle across his legs. With the paddle across his legs and just stared out and we're like paddle paddle paddle. And he's like sort of help us a little here. So Charlie. What's his name by the way this other guy? He's catatonic. Chuck. Yeah. And it's a reason I go by Charlie so there's no confusion. And so we're like Chuck paddle and he just did sat there staring out into nothing then. So it seemed like only a few moments from the time we started paddling to the time that Jack and Jim and I were standing on the beach. We weren't in the canoe. We're standing in front of the canoe on the sand of the beach. Yeah. And this sphere had followed us all the way across the lake. Didn't Chuck also prior to this feel like you guys were being watched? He had some confidence. That's what he said. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the last thing I remembered before we were suddenly at the shore at the camp was looking back to see where this thing was. And I thought well it's still like you know 70 yards away except it was like instead of being back here it was like right there. It was right behind us and I was like oh Christ we are not going to make it back. And then that's the last thing I remembered until we stopped at the canoe. Camp site. They went up on the shore of the campsite. So there's a little blackout period. Little sort of missing time. Well yeah. But I mean. And your memory at least. Well I mean but the thing about it is in the total context we weren't aware of anything like this. At the time. At the time. But now recalling it you remember this bright plasma like object 75 yards away. Oh no no we remember the whole plasma incident like it just happened last night. And then you remember that and then it just sort of flashes directly to like you're going up on the shore to the campsite. There's nothing in between that in your memory. No no as a matter of fact I had a very vivid memory of my eyes focused on that campfire and that was all that I was. That was my goal. My objective was to reach that site. Because that was the only indicator of where a campsite was without that campfire. You know the shoreline is identical at night. It's dark. When you're going on the shore and the campfire is in sight do you guys feel differently physically than before you blacked out a little bit. Well this was the kicker when we got to shore. The three of us were standing on this in the sand. I reached down in the canoe and I picked up the flashlight again and I gave it another SOS. But this time all it did was it just went away from us to the opposite side of the lake. Once it got to the exact opposite side of the lake it ascended up and away at a 45 degree angle. Yeah I remembered when we got on the shore turning around to see where it was and I remember it hovering right over the water and this cone of light was coming down on to straight down under it on the water. Really like it was there was a beam. Like it was sitting on a beam of light. And it was close. I remember thinking if I had a stone I could hit this with a rock. And it was only about 40 feet above the surface of the water and the surface of the water was like a mirror. It was like glass. Glass at night. And then it did that same winking out. I remember it looking at this. Well that was when it went up in the sky. And then it just went and then it. And when you could see it sort of close up could you make out how big it was and the shake but it was circular. It was still spherical. It was still spherical. And it was still like maybe two and a half story. The house. Give a sense of the diameter. Triple decker. Yeah. Triple decker. It's like 80 feet in diameter. Yeah. Easy. And was it always kind of white light or did it change colors? That's how I remember it. Kind of a whitish yellow. What? The best example I could give you to envision what we saw would be go into a dark room with a 25 watt light bulb. Look at the light or turn the light bulb on. Look at it. Turn it off and then close your eyes. The after image that you have would be about as close to what we saw as I can think of. For example. Fascinating. So you guys are going on the shore and you flash the SOS again and the thing kind of you know just goes across the lake and begins to ascend up and away from us. And when it went it flew weird. I remember it reminded me of like when you have a Frisbee and you're tossing a Frisbee back and forth and sometimes the Frisbee will go out of certain and then skips up and then keeps going and then it skips up again. That's how this thing it was like it was going up a stairway. What happens when you get back to camp? Well this is while we're in camp watching this thing going up. For some reason I felt that this thing was about to take off at a high rate of speed. So I took the flashlight which I was still holding in my hand once I had signaled at the second time and I looked at the sweep hand on my watch noting where the sweep hand was for the second hand. Then I looked back up at this thing and then it shot off into the night sky. So I didn't observe it skipping I just meant that probably happened when I was looking at my wristwatch. But when that thing took off within eight seconds of the time I spotted the sweep and till the time the thing was a pinpoint of light in the night sky eight seconds had elapsed. And I turned and I looked at the campfire. The campfire had flames about one inch high. The campfire had completely burned out but I didn't say oh my god what happened to the fire? I mean because fires burn out you expect that. But I was puzzled by the fact that the fire was exhausted. So I asked everybody should I throw some wood on the fire and build it up and they're like fuck the fire man I'm exhausted. And I all of a sudden just felt exhausted. So it was like that adrenaline that puts you into the afterburner rocket across the lake to get back to your shoreline safety that adrenaline is now dissipated and exhaustion hits you that's the way it felt like. But you somehow intuited that this thing was going to shoot off that you felt like that I did but I didn't know why at that time. It took us going through hypnotic regression to learn the answer to that. The fire is significant too right? Yeah yeah extremely so. So explain that. Well the fact that we had only been out on the water less than 30 minutes when we encountered this thing. So it should have taken us about 20 minutes to get back to shore but it seemed like it only took a few moments for us to get back to shore. And when we got back to shore the fire was extinguished. So that was a three hour period of time that is that missing time that everybody talks about. And the fire initially was set you know it was an intense fire. Yeah yeah yeah it acted like a lighthouse. Because I mean you have to have a point of reference to get back to if you're going to be out on the water at night because as he had said before you know you can feel the heat from your hand but you can't see your hand. So this was a bonfire explicitly for visibility at far distances. Correct yeah yeah yeah yeah. But it's not so big that it would start a force well I mean if it would have been windy that would have been a different thing but it wasn't windy at all that night. I'm concerned about it. I mean it's called a long burning fire or sometimes an upside down fire you build it to last to burn a long time rather than quickly. And the fact that this was basically out by the time that you guys got there or you know all but out. Yeah it was just cold. Maybe there was some missing time involved. Well we didn't think about it that was so weird. Because fires burn out. This is a pattern that you notice in retrospect after piecing everything together. Yeah in fact we hadn't even made that connection. It was Ray Fowler that made the connection. He said this is missing time where you knew you were paddling toward a fire a fire that you were looking at but yet when you got there the fire was out. That's also a common trope with alien abductions. You have Travis Walton coming back with a fully grown beard. Yeah. You know actually it was one year before you guys right. It was 75. 75. Nine months. Nine months before us. Yeah. And I had never heard of Travis at that time. We didn't know about Travis. Oh yeah. We didn't know about anybody back then. We didn't know about any of this shit back then. We were novices it was all new. Yeah. One of the reasons we were so intent as I said to James to share this knowledge with the world. Yeah. I mean you know this hey something comes down into my neighborhood and kicks my butt and I can't do nothing about it. I want people to know. Did you guys report it to. Oh yeah. We'll report it to Ranger. The next day when the Ranger came to collect our trash we said hey you know did anybody see anything weird last night and he's like what do you mean they have that main accent you know. So we told him what we saw and he was like. He kind of give us this weird look. Yeah. I said well I don't know what two guys were smoking last night. No he didn't say that. If I were you I'd stop you know and we were like no this is something that we really saw. This thing was like how could you how could somebody else not see it. And in fact we asked other people when we passed other people on the lake system. We said hey did you see anything weird you know last night or a couple nights ago. They said now we were all in bed by you know. Sorry. And you guys had six more days right on the on the. No no we had like about two more weeks. Oh you had weeks. You guys had two more weeks on the strip. So how much does this change the dynamic between you guys. Are you guys talking about this a lot. Well that night we didn't talk about one word. We just more or less all drifted off. Forget about the fire everybody said. So we all drifted off climbed in our sleeping bags and you know closed our eyes and then the next morning as we're breaking camp and eating the only thing we could talk about was this thing. What the hell was it. It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year. No phone. No gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing silent descending through the trees a UFO and stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me but better same face same great hair but something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect gene. And they start at just seventy nine dollars six fits sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now 2026 me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft but dangerous for a limited time our listeners get 15% off their first order plus free shipping at the perfect gene.nyc or just Google the perfect gene and use code Jesse 15 for 15% off. That's 15% off for new customers at the perfect gene.nyc with promo code Jesse 15. After you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them please support our show and tell them we sent you. Your khakis and get the perfect gene. What the hell was it. We immediately said well I had to be a UFO because I said it's nothing military because I'm familiar with what we have militarily. I've been in enough Hueys to know it wasn't no damn helicopter. Well it didn't make any noise it was totally silent and as it flew off it had to be going faster than the speed of sound. It just had to be because that's how quickly it accelerated. No sonic boom. That's the Mach 1 but no boom. No boom. Totally silent. So it almost feels like it's gliding through space time or something. Yeah I don't know how you know. Breaking Newton's third law or something. I don't know how it does that but there was no sonic boom and that thing took off like Charlie said all you saw was a streak behind it. How much are you guys talking about it for the next couple of weeks? So you talk about the next day. We talked about it for like the freaking next year. Everybody that we knew. Yeah. Literally everybody that we knew and a lot of people that we didn't know. We shared this experience of the seeing this thing and being chased by it. By week two are you guys starting to speculate about UFOs, non-human intelligence, aliens. No I mean we just said it was a UFO because it didn't move like anything I'd ever seen or any of us were ever familiar with like shooting off into the night sky the way it did. Yeah and we didn't have any sense of contact with any beans or anything like that. It was just this weird craft that we saw. That saw us and chased us across the lake scared to crap out of us and then we were off and gone. But to get back to me shining the flashlight to put that in a little bit of context. Remember I said I used to work on nuclear submarines and I worked with the reactor system. And operate with a bubble of air inside the between the outer hull and the inner hull. They have a bladder like fish have a bladder and you fill it full air to maintain a certain depth. Well apparently when I was on board this craft inquired about their power system you know because I was curious about it and it was relayed to me that it works like the submarine working with a bubble of air they can match gravity fields. So if you set it for you know like minus x that might be like 80,000 feet up in the sky and set it for minus one and you're 12 inches above the water. And they can move between the in fact the encounters that the aircraft carriers had in California in 2004 they had a craft at 80 I think it was 81,000 feet was like over 15 miles straight up in the air. And they sent planes up to that area and when they could just start seeing it on their instruments it dropped down to 24 inches above the water surface in under one second. I think it was right above the water and it moved to 30,000 feet and 7 eighths of a second and then yes it then it zoomed up to over 80,000. So yeah but I mean that's another thing that kind of disturbs when we're reading information you get a lot of conflicting information. Well I think you're actually right because well some of them are radar I think the radar thing was more similar to what you said and then the you know I think maybe visually. Visual yeah. But it's like I've heard podcasts on the Allagash many many times. They always get there. Facts right. Yeah and they're mixing this person up with that person. Yeah. Well even Ray did that in his book he kept getting Jack and I mixed up. So you get back you see your families what do you say to them and how do they react? Well I mean half of my family believed me and the other half thought I was squirrel bait. You know what squirrel bait is don't you? No it's squirrel bait. Nuts. That's funny. There you go. So but over the last 50 years and especially most especially over the last 15 years there's so much more information coming forward. So many more reliable credible people are coming forward like the prime minister from Canada for Paul Hallier came forward describing his UFOs and the information he had the supreme Air Force commander of the Belgian military you know decades ago way before we were even aware of Ray Fowler came forward said these things were real. People like Gordon Cooper? Well Gordon Cooper who was one of the Mercury 7 astronauts. Jim and I gave a presentation in Portsmouth, Maine in 1995 was it? It's either 5 or 6. And 96 I think it was yeah. And Gordon Cooper was one of the speakers as well. We had we spent basically the weekend with Gordon Cooper. He shared with us that in 1957 that he was on the base and they had a craft land physically land on the base. So he was in a Jeep with three photographers a cinematographer with a 16 millimeter movie camera and he was shooting film 35 millimeter photographer was shooting film and a four by five press camera photographer and he said when they drove straight out there was this sort of like kind of like a tic-tac shape thing that was on the ground on tripod. And when they approached the legs like retracted back into it and then it just went straight up in the air when they were within about three or four hundred yards it just went vertically straight up and I said well what did the films look like? Gordon said never saw them soon as we got back they were all confiscated. And this saucer flew right over them and put down three little gear and landed out on the dry lake bed and they went out to picked up their cameras and moved on out toward him filming and he left it off put the gear back in the well and climbed out a very high rated speed and disappeared. That is so nuts. Yeah well he I think spent more time in space than anybody prior to him in the mercury. Oh yeah yeah he was one of the mercury seven. Yeah fascinating did he say anything else to you? Well about seeing when they were orbiting he saw well not they each astronaut orbited by themselves and no because they only had seven astronauts only had seven capsules so Cooper said that he had witnessed and I guess he was on the radio back with the ground control and then they like they often do switch to another radio frequency to get off of the public radio frequencies. Who the hell did we meet? Some guy from Australia that had been recording and when they switched to a different channel he was able to switch and because he knew where that channel was and he switched over to that channel and he recorded some of the of the interchange going back and forth. It's it's amazing how much information is out there and has been out there but it was just in tighter circles the circles are expanding now. Yeah I think that's right and but Gordon Cooper is saying that he literally experienced the UFO while he was orbiting earth as an astronaut in the mercury emissions. That's amazing and he had seen that one before the mercury program because the mercury program didn't start until I think like 59 58 59 and so by 1969 when we landed on the moon I was stationed over in Europe. I remember that night incredibly well because all the bars you know it was a night time for us over there all the bars were open and they all had these tiny little black and white TVs that were all snowy and we're watching the astronauts in the moon so we all grab our beers or whatever we were drinking and we went out in the streets thousands of us Americans were all toasting the guys on the moon with our beers. Now the moon belongs to us because we got our flag there. That's funny so but did he just describe this UFO that he saw at all while he was orbiting earth with the other astronauts or just that it had come in proximity with him and I think he said it was green if I'm not mistaken but I don't know I might be confusing that with other astronauts that had had encounters. So you guys still have some missing puzzle pieces with your experience for a decade plus right for 12 years. Oh yeah we never really started looking at it until the late 80s. So what exactly kind of spur catalysts? What was the catalyst to Jim and Jack both at the same time in two different states Jim lived in Massachusetts Jack and Vermont with his wife. They both started experiencing these identical nightmares and well similar similar yeah I don't know if they were identical but well for lack of a better word they were identical in as much as they had the same four people the two twins me and the other guy. Yeah and so back to the entanglement thing you guys are experiencing the same thing at the same time. Yeah I mean he would but even then we didn't know what was going on I remember he used to say man I had like a really strange dream last night where there were like these things like humanoid things and and I was like yeah Jack come on it's a nightmare you know I have them too. Yeah I have the same kind of dreams it's just a nightmare don't worry about it. And it was you Charlie Jack and Chuck in the dream just like yeah it was you four at Allagash. Exactly yeah well that was the only time that we had ever done anything together like that I mean. So the dream is just you guys are sitting there and what happens. Like being in a doctor's office strange things are being done to you with no explanation. So are you guys on a craft? Well we we somewhere. We're after the hypnotic regression we discovered that yeah we we were on this craft apparently. So you're having dreams that are sort of adjacent to or flashbacks you know point to something else having occurred and then that catalyzes this desire to get a hypnotic regression. Well Jim had had an injury and he developed epilepsy temporalibic epilepsy and he was having a lot of seizure activity so he was at the Beth Israel hospital being followed for that and they were going to do a sleep deprivation study on him and he added all these wires glued to his head and they said while you're waiting around you want to read a book or anything he said yeah yeah so they brought in a tray of books and. And one of them was Whitney Streber's communion and when I saw the face on the cover I flipped out. Yeah I was like why are you giving me this book to read I don't want to read this and I like for some reason I didn't really know why it was just like this face just negative reactions had this extreme negative reaction and I didn't want to have anything to do with it and I made a big scene and then a few minutes later one of the neurologists came in and said uh Jim what just came down here and I was like I don't want to talk about this and he was like well it's kind of weird don't you think and I was like I don't care what you call it you know it's like I don't know I just don't like this I don't want to look at this book anymore. It was like a visceral allergic reaction. It was more like a visceral reaction to it and I got really upset and then. You know this is by the way common for people experiences to see the cover specifically of communion Whitney Streber's book and a lot of stuff bubbles back up. It just comes up. Yeah it just comes up and sometimes it's this and then other times it's like uh whoa that looks familiar. Yeah. And and so he he left and and after the test was done the EEG he came in he said you know I'm going to ask you a kind of personal question and I said fine what do you want to ask? He said have you ever seen a UFO and I remembered like looking at him like what the heck is going on here and I said well yeah as a matter of fact I have and he said oh you want to talk about it and I said not really you know I really want to kind of concentrate on the seizures you know I'm having these problems with seizures I think that's a little bit more important than talking about UFOs and he said well you know I know this guy one of my professional people I know who turned out to be John Mack. No way yeah yeah. Who's this neurologist? He's uh what was his name Jonathan Silverman I think it was. And was he affiliated with? He was affiliated with Beth Israel. Yeah and in Harvard Medical School. Yeah so um. Did you sense anything nefarious about him or you felt like he was an honest actor? No I think he was an honest actor and um and so I said uh well yeah you know I have had a UFO experience and and I was telling him about these nightmares that I was having thinking they were seizure activity and he said you know Jim I think you really need to talk to somebody like John Mack or somebody who deals with people who have seen UFOs I could tell he was trying to be gentle about walking around this topic so I wouldn't flip out again because I was I was not happy and so I said uh you know I really I really want to just concentrate on the seizures you know let's concentrate on the seizures so I tried to avoid it for a while and then a few days later he came into my room and said look you know this guy named Ray Fowler Raymond Fowler is gonna he's a UFO investigator and he's gonna be at this um conference uh which was pretty close to where Carol and I live now. Is a library? A Marriott Hotel there was a Marriott Hotel in the Russ and he said he's gonna be doing he's gonna be speaking at this uh or he's gonna have a book stand or something like that at this thing and I I want you to go and talk to him and I was like I don't want to talk to him and he said look you really I really want you to do this so he talked me into doing it and that's how I met Ray Fowler and I remembered when I met him he was selling some his books and he said oh you're the yeah your doctor called me and and so I'm expecting you and I said you know and he goes uh well why don't you just start at the beginning and tell me about this UFO that you saw so I told him about it and at first I thought he was bored you know it was like oh yeah I've heard this a million times you know and then I said I'm my Charlie and myself and my identical twin and then he went what did you just say and I said Charlie and I and this other guy my identical twin he said oh you have an identical twin and I said yes and then he said okay I want you to start all over again and then I could tell he was giving me his attention so why was why was that somehow I don't know this role and you got a base population and a control population if you're gonna do any type of meta experimentation so that's interesting identical twins yeah that boat that's interesting I also think from investigatory perspective if he's speaking to you first he can get your whole testimony then he can isolate your brother yeah and then get the same testimony and kind of you know compare and contrast and so it's probably from his vantage point you know uh the potential for high confidence is really there yeah which is exciting and and that's exactly what he did with the regression sessions you know we filed a report that was the first thing we did and then he said you know would you like to do hypnotic regression have you ever done you ever been hypnotized I said no I'm not even sure I can be hypnotized I mean isn't that kind of a control show something some kind of weird thing you know that people believe in but it's not really true not science you know it's not science it's not it's not accepted in a court of law so I mean how could it be legitimate and he's like no it's just kind of this like super relaxed state you know it's not no big deal so I said yeah sure we'll do it so we all four of us agree to undergo regression multiple regression sessions and then we promised we agreed that we would not talk about them between us we would not report anything we remembered from these sessions so no collusion no collusion totally isolated yep and what comes out of the regression session pretty similar stories yeah something that I didn't think that happened at all I thought was Christ somebody there's nothing to this story we're out fishing this weird light came up on top of us we paddled away we shined a flashlight at it it flew away that's the whole story the whole end nothing to it so after being hypnotized then I was totally quiet with myself even I didn't even talk to myself I'm for like the next four hours I'm just trying to access absorb and accept what I had just and re-encounter that I didn't know that I had encountered to begin with yeah why the fire had burned out why I knew that this thing was going to go at lightning speed uh because of its power source uh works off of gravitational fields when it's within the limits of a planet that has gravitational fields describe in detail what transpired based on your regressions between you seeing this you know plasma ball that's glowing 75 yards away and then you guys kind of walking on the shore well uh first thing I remembered in my regression was looking at my toes and thinking well that's odd what the hell happened to my socks and then I'm thinking where the hell are my shoes where the hell are my clothes and the fast thinker that I am then it's like where the hell am I and I'm like getting cold and freaked out and I'm like looking around and just beyond my toes I can see jack and jim and this other guy sitting on this bench like they're waiting for a damn bus and in my mind I'm screaming I couldn't articulate but I'm like screaming get off your asses get over here help me get me loose you know what's going on and at that time I was probably about a first degree black belt in martial arts shodokan karate goshin jitsu ishiro pukalon and ikeido so I studied mostly ikeido for many years but at a rate I could take care of myself in a fight you know I'd I'd had people attack me with knives and weapons and I defended myself successfully but here I am butt naked and I was helpless as an infant I just it was rough for me to kind of cope with that for a while and then I'm struggling to get up and I had that sensation of movement I look up and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes so I dropped my head didn't move as way as quickly as I could and I probably only moved my head like another three or four inches still I was making contact with the surface I was laying on and I couldn't go backwards any further so you were laying horizontally on a table yeah on what did the table feel like uh kind of like a chili like this room is chili yeah it felt chili uh very sterile uh very much like uh an emergency room setting in a way and then uh I recall this panel coming down from somewhere above my head and it was over my chest and it basically covered my entire torso and then this blue light came straight down out of it and it had like definite dimensional quality to it the light did I mean it isn't like like take your flashlight or anything you shine it in the light spreads and travels this was focused it was localized into one shape and that was emitted straight down onto my torso and there were like two beings to my left doing whatever to this panel I had this one at my head and another at my feet and they began a clinical examination of me for lack of a another term at all what did the beings look like like what did the face look like when you're lifting your head up and you see this other head above yours leaning down yeah well I got I got artwork of it in the computer but and and it's in the book as well uh a sort of like a bulbous head with large eyes no nose like us and no mouth like us it was sort of like a slight slit area in the chin no ears like we have protruding they were like just a lump and not like a lump or a blob or anything but like a slight bump out from the skull are you freaking out freaking out I'm beyond freaking freaked out I mean here I was an individual I mean how I defended myself against seven armed kids in Boston a number of years ago I had seven kids come at me with weapons and you know I I had no fear of them whatsoever I just told them they'd made an error in judgment just I just had to let them know that they had truly made one with your words and with your uh your moves well yeah I let them know a thing or two so there you go but at any rate I couldn't do diddly to protect myself or do anything so I mean at that moment on that craft um but I was told not to resist not to fight I wasn't in any danger just comply and everything will be all right and I'm there like oh I can do that were you told telepathically yeah when I was well you you've had the experience of being on a roller coaster when it drops and your stomach stays up around your shoulders sure I had a physical sensation like that but it wasn't my stomach it was like my mind when I looked into these eyes it was like uh two magnets rabid one another instantly and I mean it was like I understand what you're asking of me and uh I believe you instant instantaneous comprehension of their intention absolutely interesting absolutely and so I'm they're like well okay well I'm not gonna get hurt I'm gonna get released so all right that's were they gray in color yes yeah yeah they were grayish in color do you remember how tall uh under five feet uh spindly uh uh their hands had four digits uh not five or three as are portrayed in a lot of our science fiction films um uh their hands had four digits hang straight down and the center of the hand had like an articulation ability so they would have four opposable digits where we only have one or thumb uh these these beings had four opposable digits and that was the way all their technology was geared to toward their hands just like our world is designed because of our hands how our hands work to use tools but they had like a clothing on it was I didn't for lack of a better word it's like a spandex type of appearance where like tightly conformed to their body but they also uh one of them also had this wand uh like a magic wand that was maybe about this long or so Jim can tell you more about that because of something that he attempted to do I'll go back to the canoe when we were paddling back to the towards the beach the campsite the last thing I had remembered consciously was looking up and seeing this craft like right behind us the next thing I remembered was going up to the canoe but under hypnotic regression I remembered it being right over on like literally on top of this and that this beam came down around the canoe and it was a hollow like Charlie said earlier it was it was like a tube where our hose where the sheath of the hose is made out of light and it was moving like when you see dust moats through sunlight you know it's moving that's had this quality to it but the inside was dark and I remembered looking up straight up into the top of this tube and it was dark in there but there was something moving I can tell there was still something moving up there and I remember thinking oh shit this is bad and then the next thing I remembered was being in a room um Chuck, Rack and Charlie were sitting on this bench and I think I think I remembered I was standing near it and Jack was out in front of me with um these beans and then one of them had this wand that had a thin wand with a bulb on the end of it like the end of your finger and he was doing he was pointing it at Jack and they were doing they were like taking his wrist and rotating his wrists and his arm to see like how it rotated I thought at first they were going to hurt him because they were like trying to twist and turn it all these different ways and I was like oh Christ man they're going to break his arm and uh and then they had lifted his head back and they were like examining his throat and they had another thing that looked like it was a little flashlight like a pencil light flashlight that they were looking in his eyes with and um and then they I remembered them walking him away into this other area there was like a hallway or something and they took him in through there and then um they came for me and they were doing the same thing to me and then when they went to um walk me through this area I didn't want to go because I was terrified I thought that's it we're going to get dissected this is this is not going well at all and I didn't I didn't get any messages saying just relax or we're not going to hurt you I didn't get anything like that and I didn't want to go through this this doorway or into this other area and one of them that had this wand took it and they jammed it in my rib in between my ribs you know and I was like I then I got I didn't hear anything it wasn't like a verbal message but I just had this understanding that if I didn't cooperate I was going to be in trouble that I had to cooperate was there any sort of surgical implantation of anything or removal of anything well I remembered them taking sperm sample and and then at one point I remembered this was over two sessions the first session that the first hypnotic session I remembered their bodies but I couldn't get their faces for some reason I just could not see their faces or I didn't want to see their faces and then in the second session their faces finally came through and I remember screaming their bugs they look like bugs they had this kind of it looked like a like a shape of an ant you know that a bulbous top head and had these big eyes that were more laterally situated rather than in the front no nose slit for a mouth and I couldn't tell if it was the actual head or whether there was a mask there of some sort and I thought they'd look they reminded me of like an ant head or an insect head are there any details from each of your individual isolated regressions where you were kind of separated from each other any details that were inconsistent between your accounts or did they all I think some small details were different like I remembered the the device that they used to get the to see them store the semen I remembered it being more like a tubular shape with a round bottom and there was a neck a smaller flange on the neck but like when they took the semen from me I was like I was so terrified you know my Johnson was like three inches inside of me you know it was like you're you're not getting there and so then I had this I got this impression that things are going to you better change your ways or you know so I I actually like forced myself that's a retching and then they brought out this thing for me to you know jaculate in whereas Jack remembered more of a conical shape device with a with a wand coming like a spike coming out of it or a needle coming out of it that they actually inserted into his penis to get the sample so that was different between his recollection and my recollection or it could have been different instrumentation or whatever yeah because it just been because of the way I mean I remembered they let me sit up to do it I remember saying I can't do this laying down I got you know let me sit up and then I was able to function and and then there was another time I don't know if they did the same thing to Jack or not I can't remember but at one point I remembered laying on on a on a table and there were two two beans at my shoulders behind me and two at my feet and two next on either side and I remembered thinking I mean I was terrified and I didn't trust these things and so I at one point I'm almost ashamed to say I thought you know maybe if I kill one I can create a distraction and get out of here and can escape and as soon as I had that thought because I had these really like thin pencil like necks and he's like thin necks I thought oh I could get my hand around there and just and as soon as I had that thought they the ones who were near my shoulders and on the side they moved away so fast it was like a blur and then um one of the ones that were at my feet just it was weird he kind of like reached up in the air with his arm they had these long long thin articulated arms and when he came down he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey it was like a hockey puck but it wasn't like perfectly round it was more like an oval shape and it had rounded edges instead of the sharp edges a hockey puck has but it was like the size of a hockey puck maybe a little smaller and they put one on on the outside of each one of my shins and then I couldn't move my legs like no matter how hard I tried I couldn't move my legs did you ask them any questions about who they were and where they were from or no I didn't yeah didn't even get a damn t-shirt I mean no souvenirs you know like I said earlier it was like I got the clear impression that these whatever they were they were following a procedure yeah it was you know step one step two step three step four I don't remember them putting me in any machines Jack they got a lot more out of jack than they did me because I was like so terrified all the time that Ray thought I was going to have a seizure so they had to keep bringing me out of the hypnosis so I wouldn't have a seizure because I would be like freaking out during these sessions but it was almost like the beings were in some sort of automated assembly line and they were following in a sense in a sense they weren't totally automated just a footnote about what Jim had just mentioned about these discs being placed on his ankles uh on his legs for several years thereafter I don't know if it's that way now here didn't grow there it was like a ball patch on it well really and both shins and his identical twin brother jack yeah had tumors growing in the exact spots on his legs what tumors tumors benign or we never knew because the tumors were removed uh at the teaching hospital where they removed them in Vermont their pathology department was unable to ascertain what type of biological they were looking at so they sent it to the Air Force Institute of Pathology down around Washington DC it was signed for by a major or no by a colonel a doctor who was a rank of a colonel because they have one of the best pathology uh science labs in the world got it yeah when they removed this thing on his shin it looked like a piece of um bubble gum pink in color hard and they said in the report that it resembled the type of growth that is common when you have bone marrow taken out of a bone you get this kind of tissue that grows on the wound that's what they they said they didn't know what it was but that was what it that was the closest thing that they could just describe it as whoa did any of you guys end up with any implants anything inside of your body i don't think so i i used to have a head of hair does that come no uh oh okay i uh i have like a small punch biopsy scar up near my scrotum that i had never known before uh uh if you were to take like an old uh pencil the ones that had the brass barrel and the rubber eraser in them pull the eraser out and stab it into something to take a plug out that's the size diameter um and very shallow maybe about uh not quite an eighth of an inch deep uh right here on the inside of my leg you described the beings as clinical very clinical yeah we were like the chimps and they were like jane goodall so they were about their business kind of yeah right the best analogy i can come up with is like when scientists go to the you know an arctic and they see a polar bear and they dart him and then while he's anesthetize they measure his teeth and look at him you know what's that what's a polar bear got to say about what happened to it i remembered one under the hypnosis i like the way i saw things was weird it was like i had tunnel vision i could see clearly you but out here everything was fuzzy and unclear did all of the hypnotic regressions line up because all four of you did hypnotic regression yeah did all the period of about almost a year uh do you have the audio uh ray certainly has i don't yeah would i be able to listen to that it's the some of the hypnotic regressions are word for word in his book would i be able to listen to the audio you have to get ray okay if he even still has that stuff okay uh but if you do go to the library or get a copy of his book the alegash abductions um it has direct quotes from the regression okay uh questions as well as our responses and their analysis and their analysis of it it's the best book on the case did john mack over see any or did did john mack review any of the uh hypnotic regression audio or any of the material there i don't know what john he must have over the years because we'd known john for many years over 20 years now over 25 before he died after we had after ray had gotten finished with his investigation i was um he said it because during the during the investigation he said i don't want you to read any books i don't want you to talk about it to one another or really anybody else because i don't want to like pollute yeah well hopefully now he would you know after having written his book hopefully the audio the raw source material he would sort of open source because well if anybody you know if anybody should uh be in possession of it it should be you guys to be i mean we could have purchased the complete manuscript i mean and that includes all of the hypnotic regressions transcribe verbatim word for word um uh but you know that thing was like literally yeah they're really almost a foot thick well hey of paper now we have a little thing called AI and you run it you run it through and you just say you know describe you know these accounts and you have a summary give us a summary and then you can query it and you so i think i think it'd be really cool to to get these things kind of digitized and you know and then run it through the AI and you'd be able to ask it questions and stuff sounds like you've found a project for yourself oh i'm ready let's do it all of ray yeah yeah i'll try to get in touch with ray and that'd be cool um fascinating what was john mac like uh i uh am a long time you know admirer of his obviously you know rest in peace well i went to his his support group for a while after ray was done with his investigation um and jim real quick just for the audience for basic context john mac was the head of the harvard psychiatry department and uh brilliant guy he actually even wrote the politzer prize winning um i believe lorence of arabia yeah that's right uh was an expert on him the the prince of disorder and um and as a really kind of a mystic in his own right but also obviously academically as credentialed as it gets and towards the end of his career he started to uh because he was a clinician see people who had missing time and get into the whole you know alien abduction phenomena and was actually childhood friends here and ippidously with bud hopkins um who was this you know amazing aggregator of a lot of these experiences himself so go on yeah so anyway my impression of john when i first met him was i knew that he was a psychiatrist and he was affiliated with harvard and he had credentials up the kazoo and so when i went to his support groups i noticed that they were in my from my perspective i saw two different camps of people one camp which i considered myself a member of was the nuts and bolts i called it the nuts and bolts you know i i want to see physical evidence i want to see physical beings and then the other camp was more of a like um people who thought that they were most that they that their experiences were more ethereal or multidimensional sure beings that weren't physical but communicated more about your consciousness consciousness space and that these people seem to think that the aliens were our saviors that they were going to save the human race and they were here to uplift our consciousness to a level where there's no more hate or war and all that stuff which was fine i didn't have a problem with it i mean but i did notice that and i think john was more the second camp because of his training as a psychiatrist he you know because what a psychiatrist's job to do their job is to heal people you know and these people all had like serious problems dealing with this stuff it's like even though they even though we all believe that we actually that these experiences were real for us it still creates all kinds of psychological problems you know how to deal with other people who don't who think you're crazy yeah or i think you're you know subhuman for some reason there's something wrong with you because you have these beliefs that are out of the box and so it's it my impression of john mack was that he saw it as his mission his mission to help these people become you know self actualized where they could be they could live with their experiences without pain or fear or anxiety kind of re reintegrated back into society and right probably simultaneously and still be able to live with their experiences you know because that was that was the difference between him and the rest of the community the rest of the psychic psychiatric community the rest of the sci-fi psychiatric community especially at harvard which is why they tried to kick them out yeah was that no these people are you know they're they're lunar there's something wrong with these people john was saying look i've given them every kind of psychiatric and psychological tests i can think of they're all coming out as normal people and neither of you had any kind of mental health history prior no the only mental problems i had was from the seizures because i'd have auras you know i'd smell things or hear things or um how many beings were on the craft well hard to say yeah it really would be because there were people or beings in the like control room area that we were ushered through on our way into the exam area and as we left we passed because that was where i inquired about their power system their propulsion system and so you've you learned some stuff directly from them about the propulsion system or well i was explained the way you would explain something to a six-year-old you know that it it operates in a similar fashion to the way a submarine can work at different atmospheres in the water different levels by the amount of air that it keeps in its inner hull to maintain that depth and they could match gravitational fields and so that was the way they were sort of examining example a to what we do this is so like where your submarine works this is the way our craft works when it's in in a planetary gravitational area so it would like you mentioned with the submarine you have a certain amount of air between the inner and outer hull which manages the depth correct you're saying that they're doing something similar where they're modulating gravitational fields interesting yeah that's fascinating very yeah yeah well let's just you know think about that i'll mold that over well i mean it's just like we can do things magnetically that um where you take the two very powerful magnets and you have the same polarity you have all this resistance if you try touching them to one another uh and their uh ability was to match and a gravitational field to propel them away from from a denser field to a less dense field i don't know it's the only way i can think of yeah did you have any sense of where they came from why they were taking you know samples from you guys no no no it's interesting because the kind of you know gammy you know semen and egg sample thing comes up a lot that's very common it's almost like there's some intergenerational alien breeding program and that's kind of where you end up with a lot a lot of these guys don't don't we do the exact thing same thing to animals sure on our planet yeah we domesticate animals all the time we breed them we create new species we do the same thing with people and like you know dynasty families it's wild to think that but it's it's true and sometimes i think about these um gray alien beings and you think about what an evolutionary biologist would say a human is evolving into given that we're being domesticated right now that is not a controversial thing to say we are you know testosterone is dropping off a cliff uh sperm count is dropping off a cliff for men we're losing you know the melanin in our our skin that happens over a long period of time so you end up with these beings that you know they lose the melanin in their skin that the their prefrontal cortex is larger because decision making is probably more important with the advent of you know the ai white collar work age their ears and nose become vestigial we're not hunter gathering their eyes become more slit like because we use more screens and their their bodies are sort of wiry and spindly because our physical bodies become less important and they develop some sort of you know latent telepathic power which you're now seeing you know the telepathy tapes and like you know people starting to lend more rigorous scientific credence to the idea that maybe we have this mind matter sort of thing and so they've selected for all of the stuff that you would expect humanity to select for it's very interesting that's right yeah you know i mean i've heard from some people at some of the conferences where they believe that they're actually us from the future yes yeah that the exactly is a guy named mike masters and then i somehow think that you know that's a really interesting theory that's important and then it's somehow too simple like there's something else going on too yeah but it's it's it's always hard to theorize the problem i always have is the interdimensional stuff against the physical i mean if they if they can travel interdimensionally why do they have craft what do they need a craft for yeah yeah you know it's like what yeah it's almost like some of these things are symbolic memes that change over time then that would be the jocke-velay idea i mean are they is is that craft that we saw really something physical or just something they wanted us to see is physical i don't know did did any of you so okay so the the the physical evidence would be like the ankle your hair not growing around your ankle your brother having tumors in the same spot tumors in the exact same spot anything else as far as like a physical you know remnant of the well one of the things that has always fascinated me personally was the fact that all of us or the three of us most certainly had major changes in the direction of our lives and our artwork after the alligash where i was training myself to be a school teacher to work with children teaching art i ended up becoming a medical artist working with medical scientists medical researchers and being aware of all kinds of new technologies the technology i mentioned that they used to look at our chests or at our torsos when i was a medical photographer i would use ultraviolet light sources and ultraviolet film infrared film and infrared light sources to photograph human bodies because with ultraviolet light you can see through the skin and see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eyes so we use magnetic fields to look inside the human body now to look at soft tissue eyes your MRIs prior that was your x-rays and then cat scans and you can use ultrasound sonic waves and tomograms to hold nine yards all these different radiological tools so i was talking with a physician about this and uh and he said well he said that's just like when you know uh defibrillators first showed up in the world you know they were these you know experimental paddles that you touch the heart or you know to restart the the heart's function and that all of these technologies that these beings have have were slowly catching up i mean if you stop and any rational person stop and think in 1903 which was 123 years ago two bicycle builders from Ohio did the first manned flight not a glider they weren't gliding from a high elevation to a different elevation or a different location they took off from a low elevation and landed at a higher elevation that was flight 66 years after that we were walking on the moon in 66 years now these entities these beings that we don't know where they come from uh they have science that's you know even patness on the back saying thousands of years ahead of us they might be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us uh the milky way galaxy there are more stars and planets in the milky way galaxy than grains of sand on planet earth that's what i've been told by astrophysicists and that is a number that just is almost incomprehensible for me and uh that uh the technologies that we have and we're developing like sound technology without speakers uh bone conducting headphones yeah send the vibrations through your cheekbones and i hear better with these than i do listening to people yeah it's fascinating it you can bypass the ear canal through vibration yeah Beethoven went deaf famously and he would chew on this rod and that would allow him to hear once he went deaf which was obviously very important for him as this amazing composer speaking of very advanced technology maybe the most shocking thing that you said charlie right before we started rolling which i got so excited about is i've been researching this guy named john norsin and he is uh you know this interesting engineer who has this lock eed patent for essentially how to fly a ufo with your mind how to use sort of bio feedback from the brain in order to control remote control remote pilot a craft and he he talks about brain prints the idea that we have fingerprints but you might also have a unique kind of uh you know electromagnetic signature just like iris or whatever yeah iris yeah so fascinating guy who seems well ahead of his time and i have to think if there is you know uh legacy ufo crash retrieval program which i do believe they are either tracking him uh you know he's now since you know he's passed away but they were either tracking him or they were working directly with him would be my guess and so this is fascinating because you said that john norsin you spoke to john norsin and he was at alligash in the 19 in 1976 in august when you guys were there and experienced your abduction that's what he said he read our report to the ranger that same day that's what he told us whoa he read your report to the ranger that same day and what what did he say he was doing there he said he was doing a ttr um tag trace retrieve exercise with a subcutaneous device that they were testing that they could monitor sort of like gps field agents you know we tell them like blood pressure heart rate that sort of stuff so he location what exactly what he would put like this like rfid chip or something on some other military folk and they would sort of you know uh go off and end to alligash and they were testing to see how well they could track they could track them exactly that's so fast that's what he told us and does any part of you guys think that because you know i think about some of these narratives with like you know ufo is showing up around nuclear sites and i don't know it might not be a coincidence that you're uh you're uh uh in the navy in a nuclear capacity there's a nuclear air force base or was at the time in the 70s up in northern man what was the name of that base do you remember oh it wasn't an air force guy luring luring luring air force space yeah um but this was near out was it near alligash yeah 90 miles away from alligash okay interesting northern main and it was a secret nuclear base they had a episode it was here 1975 or 1976 where craft were coming over the base and these laser type beams were coming out and they were mapping the nuclear stockpiles and this is around the time that you guys had your experience i don't know if it was around the same time you said 75 76 yeah yeah well that's around the same time yeah yeah well there's like a many reported incidents over uh our nuclear missile sites where these craft would appear above them and then all the missiles go offline all their computers shut down yep and uh they go into a massive freak out freak out oh yeah i've interviewed a lot of those guys first hand and i think they're all legit so 90 miles away you had this air force base they reported UFOs showing up within a year or two of your experience with lasers shooting out of the UFOs seem to sort of you know track or do they were they were definitely mapping the bunkers and that's a common thing you hear yeah that they're sort of you know uh testing the tip of the spear of human defense and you know knowing you know either to protect ourselves protect their resources you know some of the people in the national security states say there might be you know doing isr and doing recon i don't know but i don't believe that i don't i don't believe that either i mean yeah i don't buy the whole the the idea that they're a threat and you know i think they're they oh if they wanted to do something yeah we couldn't do diddly that's right and then would have done it years ago they were why why it's like they are so advanced it's like yeah why do they need to like you know play around with us before before you know it's like what at what point in your isr you know recon do you say okay we can like take these guys out like they can they could clearly take us out now if they wanted to take them down a long time i mean good lord yeah you look back at artwork from the renaissance era and you have a lot of depictions like ufos in some of these pieces of artwork yeah um yeah no it's clearly a it's a across civilizations and across millennia phenomena so if they were gonna threaten us i mean they would have done us way before the neanderthal were bred out yeah and that's another thing a lot of people think the neanderthal were killed by chromagnum and homo sapien sapien which is what the species we are uh but they got literally screwed out of existence i want to stick with this john norsean thing because i think this is really interesting so he was doing ttr this sort of tracking thing of other you know fellow military combatants or something seeing if they go out in the field and track them i believed him i mean he was he's i got to know john pretty good how'd you meet him we met him at a mutual friend of ours down in newport down in newport would bring together experiencers uh and she's somebody that and research was he an experiencer norsean no he was he was working with an artist in jamestown across the bay um what was he doing when you met him do you know what his job was john i don't really know what his job was he was telling us things and then he said well i can't really tell you what i'm doing now because i would probably end up dead in some hotel room somewhere and i was thinking what happened to him and i was he ended up dead in the hotel room yes exactly no way down in tennessee was it i don't remember somewhere i think they claimed it was a heart attack but he told us at ands yeah he said because he was talking a lot about stuff that everybody knew he shouldn't be talking about but just seemed like science fiction yeah it seemed like that i even said to him you know john isn't that a bit out there yeah what it was drinking you know i mean everybody was drinking wine and he was and what did he say it was his job title in the 70s in the in 76 when he was at alligash do you remember primarily the research function yeah i think he said he was doing government research government working with the military because they were you know ttring agents in the field and no part of you guys thinks that your experience was some sort of smoke screen for like covert government experimentation i don't think so no i asked john that personally you asked you asked i asked john that i said john you know uh is what we saw up there and i mean did you did we like stumble into something that we shouldn't have stumbled into and then you nailed us and and hypnotized this or gave us drugs or something to make us believe that we had this abduction experience to cover your but he said no and he believed in what he said yeah no i could tell he was telling the truth he said we wouldn't do that we'd we'd just go away no i mean leave you with a story nobody's gonna believe exactly it's not like you guys have like had an easy time since you yeah you know it could came out with your story no i i almost i almost wonder if the you know meta phenomena of the ufo is showing up around the tip of the spear of human defense and ingenuity they're showing up at nuclear sites and at particle accelerators and things where we are literally messing with sort of space time itself you could imagine them maybe being interested in a you know chip tracking uh you know human experiment and them showing up around that so you know i think the kind of easy lazy skeptic thing would be to say that oh it's a it's a smoke screen for some mk ultra thing yeah but maybe the more interesting and possibly true narrative would be that their activities which were seemingly covert might have attracted the phenomena itself well that's what john oh hey that's what john told us alexander grandbell let's go down let's what he's saying yeah exactly but you're saying that's what john literally told you that's what he believed too that's interesting there i that the the the experiments that he was conducting was may have been just attracting these things when did he and he ended up dead in a hotel what year it was in fact that was it followed a really weird email that i had gotten from him because he he had contacted me via email you know he was a he was an rvr he was one of the earlier years yeah and remote viewers yeah and um he had sent me an email and said and some of the other people from ands and he said listen i'm giving a lecture on my latest research at the naval college in newport do you want to do you want to vip pass to come and and attend it i was like oh yeah so he said okay i'll get it all set up and then at the end of his email you know he was into i forget what the term is for this kind of use of language semiotics yeah he was really into that yeah and um at the last sentence in his email said um nor uh i he said i i rv the upcoming um lecture uh john not heard nor seen whoa and i remember calling and and saying hey and like what the heck is this last sentence mean john not heard nor seen i know he's in the semiotics and stuff so you know not nor seen is his last name but john not heard nor seen and then just like two weeks after that he was found dead in a motel room so jesus christ so that was some sort of code where it's like he he remote viewed his own viewed it and he wasn't there and this was code to say he's not heard nor seen yeah i mean what else could that mean oh my god i mean what this is nuts and he probably was working on program stuff who knows i mean he was working at that time with his artists this amazing artist in jamestown duncan larry is his name he's a sculptor glass artist but at that time john was working with him on uh life energy r is around like rocks and plants and things like that bio-energy biorengetics yeah very interesting very yeah well this is a wild and very interesting interview i feel like we'd go on forever but charlie you had uh because you were in the navy you had a very interesting you know ufo experience that that i want to get into yeah in may of 1970 we were off the coast of spain doing what we had gone out there to do and uh it was just after we've knocked off working for the day uh waiting for the call to evening meal uh there were about 24 of us that went up on the main deck yeah have cigarettes kicked around kill some time until it's time to go eat we had a commissioned officer who was a lieutenant uh a highest ranking uh enlisted which was a chief petty officer and then descending ranks from there and one of the guys said what the f is that and so we all kind of like turned to look toward the stern of the ship and just as i was looking back i saw these two lights coming toward us i mean faster than you could swing your arm uh from your shoulder to directly in front of you and come to a stop these things were going faster than that and came to a complete stop and uh we observed them for almost two minutes two full minutes and uh one of these points of light or spheres ascended so quickly that it went from like a point of light to a line and was gone just snip but less time than it did for me to say that snip and it was gone and then uh about 30 seconds later the other one did the exact same thing and they both went vertical straight up so fast you just couldn't believe what you were looking at so we turned to the officer that was there and we said sir what the hell was that and he looked at the chief then he looked at us and he looked at the chief and he looked back at us and he said if i were you guys i wouldn't say anything to anyone anyhow because no one's gonna believe you and this topic's closed and with that he turned and ran up into officers country and i i've never forgotten that verbatim quote you know you nobody's gonna believe you anyhow well i think this topic is closed i think they believe you guys now because you know now you have directors of national intelligence directors of the cia well you got presidents saying we're looking into this stuff yeah you got pilots using their cell phones to photograph freaking UFOs that aren't from here yeah it's uh the evidence is becoming pretty overwhelming and i think the consensus is rapidly shifting and um you said uh and this is i think gonna be also uh if we find corroboration for this really you know healthy vindication for you know alligash as well oh absolutely may 1970 uss holland is where this occurred correct and so off the coast of spain off the coast of spain and this thing was seen on the starboard side and maybe it's still in the logs so to anybody who has any experience with the freedom of information act and knows how to you know send those requests try to try to get this stuff out yeah if you can access that stuff i'd be certainly interested in knowing what was reported awesome can we talk a little bit about a little bit more about how this experience has affected our artwork sure because um there were two things that changed well we talked a little bit about just touching and and a little bit about jack's obsession about mathematics i mean this this happened immediately after we returned to boston and uh before we went to the alligash jack was doing um endangered species well he was doing like really tight kind of illustrative silk screen designs one of them is in the museum of uh two museum of art in bushing and you see poster and devils pup yeah i don't know if the devils pupfish is but anyway and then he was also doing these kind of like um what kind of painting it is abstract expressionist painting of landscapes that was the kind of work he was in and then like immediately after coming back from the alligash he like just became obsessed with this this like all this kind of weird mathematical stuff he was building um models of like kazo do decahedrons out of straws and he was incorporating grids in all of his artwork in very incredibly intriguing ways and that was one piece that i really loved i would like to know whatever happened to toss grid salad okay that's craig a friend of ours oh craig's got that anyway um and he was like i you know we live together you know and i'm his twin so like no secrets and i'd be like jack what the hell is going on here you know like what are you doing he go i don't know but i have to do this i have to do this and and like he just like kept going and going and going and years later somebody came our friend mike asherman came to the house this was got this guy's like a brilliant MIT MIT programmer and scientist he helped them build their tokamak at MIT and he came over one night and he was looking at jack's artwork and he goes you know i know what this is jack this is um get this book secrets of the world world grid and anti anti gravity by david hatchard children's and that go to this pay this chapter in here you'll see jack's what's the math behind all of this stuff what yeah and this guy's building tokamak yeah wild so it's almost like your brother was channeling something frontier yeah and the same thing happened to me when i when i came back before i went up to the aligash i was making production pottery i was making bowls and cups and platters and platters and plates and things and teapots and when i came when i was like just days after this event in on the aligash i had this epiphany i mean it was like an epiphany it's the only word i can think of to describe it all of a sudden this thing came into my head fully developed that i could if i worked with clay this way i could do this like really unique kind of of creations with clay that are there so far total opposite of production pottery and i became obsessed with this stuff i almost got i almost got kicked out of the program because of it but i stayed with it and i managed to convince them that this was something legitimate that i really wanted to some of the most amazing amazing artwork and then in addition to that i i became obsessed like my brother on ancient architecture places like tayl taywa khan and tiwanaku baalbeck and the temples in southeast asia hankor wat and hankor tom and the pyramids and i just became obsessed because i had this you know that's also common among experiences they'll say i become obsessed with the pyramid i have a buddy you know you guys might be friends with two maria woods uh from the ellsworth air force base uh abduction experience south dakota 1977 and he he goes after he goes this is going to sound weird but after my experience i just became obsessed with pyramids yeah so did i and and i had this this belief which i still have i i believe that these structures these structures these architectural sites are a form of macro chip technology that they they're not just ceremonial places that people went and prayed to their gods yeah i believe that that they actually used these structures for some kind of purpose a functional purpose you know because i agree why did they have huge sheets of mica brought to tayl taywa khan sun period pyramid from two to three thousand miles away in south america and then put them under the floor structures of the temples i mean mica is used in the electronics industry and so like why would why would they do that if it's not um decorative and it's not just in the pyramid of the sun it's in all the other pyramids in that immediate area they all have those they all utilize this mica so you know mica is is a um it's used as an insulator to make capacitors hmm another point very interesting yeah and i've always been and that was like just something that creating strong electric fields yeah i'm reading a book now it's called the seeds of knowledge stones of power i think it is and i can't think of the author i just started reading it uh this past week founded on amazon where these researchers went to all these pyramid sites in meso america europe egypt and they took measurements of the electrical fields and field energies of these locations and they claim in their argument in their book that these peoples the incas and the aztecs the mayans the old mechs were using these structures to make their seed more virulent and that so they started doing tests at these same sites with bags of seeds or whatever containers of seeds and they found out that they increase yield per acre like three to five times it's like electro culture or something yeah ancient like bioelectrics yeah fascinating well jim charlie this was an absolute honor it was a lot of fun thank you yeah it was really amazing to hear your story and uh you know i hope people start to you know use the freedom of information act to try to get to the bottom of the 1970 experience as well that'd be interesting i'd like to know and i want to give a shout out to the great james fox for the uh a very generous introduction here thank you both for your time well you're very very welcome it's been an honor jessie oh my all mine head to americanalchemymerch.com to grab official american alchemy merch and support the show directly and while you're there the cowboy ufot is a fan favorite we always keep in stock along with the atomic age design thank you all so much for following and supporting the show哎