The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

It's not only a UFO library. It's about the unknown. So how many countries do you have files from? I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files. Wow. And they went out in the field and brought back debris from this crashed object. object. They were standing on the other edge of this carriage and they had very tight helmets, small, small heads and some gloves. She was eight meters from them. Meet Klaus Svahn, journalist, author and one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers. He's a real life Swedish fox Mulder, and that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X-Files. I'm not kidding. Since the early 1970s, Spahn has not only reported on the phenomena for Sweden's largest newspaper, but he's spent decades building, organizing, and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO archive, the Archives of the Unexplained. This 16-room building houses It has detailed witness reports, photographs, audio recordings, radar data, video, and original first-generation documents that no longer exist anywhere else. Time travel? There's a time travel section? What is this, Brown and Burridge? Townsend Brown. Yeah. I went to Eureka, California. I met with this guy in his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world, Borderlands Science Research Association. What? There's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s. In this episode, we go over a half century of overlooked evidence. Radar-tracked objects executing impossible right-angle turns. Military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft. Sonar and radar returns. and, of course, covert European UFO crash retrieval operations. We discuss the Swedish ghost rocket craze of the 1940s, a swarm of at least 1,400 documented rocket and cigar-shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden, never landing on the ground, always plunging into water. A swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit and American President Eisenhower to send his top general James Doolittle to investigate. Klaus Svon isn't just an archivist. He's a field investigator in his own right, interviewing experiencers and witnesses at the very center of UFO history. He spent a lot of time with Betty Hill of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire. Everybody knows about this canonical abduction story. But Kloss dug a little deeper and found out that Betty, outside of her abduction, witnessed a UFO crash near her home. She even recovered the debris, which she went on to bury in her backyard, where it still might be to this day. I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today. Yes. But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger. Yes. This is moving into the future. This episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for UFOs I've ever heard. When you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about it. I brought my buddy Amar Kandil from Yes Theory to the archives and we had a blast. What is your top UFO photo? Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Swedish alchemist, Klaus Svon. Class, we're back. Thank you for being here again. Thank you for having us, rather. We're at the beautiful archives of The Unexplained. This is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim full of documents. And so, yeah, it's just so exciting. It's like being a kid in a candy store and you've compiled all of this. We started in 1973. You started in 1973. We've been around for a while. That's amazing. So you've been literally compiling things since 1973. Yeah, that's right. That's incredible. I want to start with something you have in your hand. Oh, yeah. What is that? This one. It's a piece of metallic. It's from Sweden, an island called Vedö, northeast of Stockholm. Okay. In 1957, two carpenters were driving their car in the middle of the night, really, because they were doing some work on Monday. This was Sunday. And suddenly they saw this object coming from east, moving in front of the car, making a U-turn, and suddenly hanging in front of the car, which totally died. So the car stopped, and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object, and suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came. So they went out of the car and took a look on this road, and they found this object there, and it was hot, so they couldn't really hold it in their hands. It was so hot, so it was really burning them. And the car started. And they drove away. After many years, this was analyzed. And I also analyzed it. And it's tungsten, or warfram carbide. This is very earthly. It has every impurity that it was in tungsten in 1957. But tungsten is a very good leader of heat. so this should have been cold in the middle of the night so the object affected it so it was so hot so it corroborates the story of the two carpenters so it's evidence and the car couldn't have made this this tungsten hot you think it was definitely it was in front of the car and it's impossible really it must have been quite the heat to do that that's amazing can I hold it? absolutely It does feel oddly, you know, very smooth, but I'm sure that is also a natural element of tungsten. It is, it is. And you have another object beside you that I brought with me. Yeah, this is actually from outer space. This is not earthly, but it is prosaic. What is this? This is a piece of an asteroid that crashed in Arizona 50,000 years ago. Okay. You can still see the crater. It's a big museum at the rim of the crater. It's one kilometer, so it's a huge crater. You can see it full space. It's very, very heavy. It's 99% iron and a little nickel and some other elements. Wow. So you can tell if something like this, and from the beginning it was huge, of course, like a London bus or something like that. If that had hit a city, of course, there were cities 50,000 years ago. But today, the city would be gone, would be vanished. How much of UFO crashes do you think are physical events, nuts and bolts, material gets left behind, you can have a crash retrieval team going looking for it and finding a thing and trying to reverse engineer it. Do you think a high percentage of them are? I mean, you know, we looked for one in Norway. Yeah, we did. The fact. With this, I mean, it landed and it sank. Yes. And in 1946, as we talked about the goose rockets, the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden. All they found were indentations at the bottom, not a single debris, not anything, not anything like that or like the weather piece. So it is really strange. I know that some of those UFOs, as we're talking about, could just vanish without a trace. Do you know of any, because this is an interesting question, I think the audience often wonders, you know, in the U.S. there are all these rumors of reverse engineering and crash retrievals of UFOs. You know, Roswell is like the, you know, kind of archetypal example of 1947, July. But the crashes often seem to occur around nuclear sites, possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection. Do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs goes and finds actual material themselves? Not here in Scandinavia. and the thing is I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often they are traveling presumably through space and they are crashing not all the time but quite often I mean the UFO enigma to me is much more complex and I'm not sure really that we are dealing with like those physical objects all the time we are from time to time I talked to Swedish radar are observers that have told me about objects that are traveling huge speeds over Sweden. And of course, they are physical, but some are not. Yes. So where in between could we distinguish? This is one of our UFO hardware. This is something else. Yeah. I'm not sure. Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs? Not here in Sweden that I'm sure about. But in 1946, we had. They were out. The government sent the military out to several different lakes and tried to find those crashed objects. You showed us photos. Yeah. Yeah. But do you think in the U.S. there's an official program around these things? I'm not sure. I mean, I have my expertise here in Sweden, really. of course the military should be interested to find hardware if there is any kind of strange object yeah you'd have to dedicate resources to even yeah absolutely it could be Chinese could be Russia it could be something completely different but I think your authorities would be interested you know people know of Hesselden in Norway as a UFO hotspot what in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe. I mean, Haastalen is interesting from many aspects first. In the 1980s, we and UFO Norway had this huge expedition there, and we could take pictures of them. We can also see them on radar once. But the thing is nowadays in Haastalen, when you see something on a scientific instrument, the light, the thing is coming up from the ground going upwards, never the other way we have in Sweden Dalarna which is in the middle of Sweden where we have had several waves of UFO observations we have a place on the island of Gotland called Vartebo where people go to a certain stretch of a road watching for lights coming wandering on this road. But we also know we have been there. We have traveled around and drove our own cars. And they shouted, oh, that is the object. But it was our car. So there's really no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure, to see something, except Testalen if you stay long enough. So that's really the UFO hotspot. Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's been that for many years. And the thing is about Hestalen, even though most of the things you see are lights in the sky, to talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well with crafts and sometimes even beings. Yeah, we were there and it was very easy to tell that an extremely high percentage of people that lived there had experienced things. Like upwards of 80, 85, 90% of people. And that was all of the report. and everybody had family members and they'd experience things. It was ubiquitous, pretty much. Several people in Norway, they have experienced stuff like that, seeing things, but they don't dare to tell it because they're afraid to be... Chastised. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why I know when you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about it. you could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to pull people, they would say, you know, maybe 10, 15% would be open about, you know, it would be, it's the opposite in Hestland. You're the pariah if you haven't seen a UFO or something. I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 Swedes and 10% of them had seen something. That's remarkable. It was only one of them who didn't want to talk with us. The other ones were very open. Okay. And the interesting thing is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here at AFU. And presumably 1 million Swedes, 10% of around 11 million. Wow. I've seen something. Wow. And last night, I talked with a lady who wrote me a letter. And she, for the first time, told anyone outside her family about something happened in 1971. in October 1971 and she was bicycling in a small city in the middle of Sweden it was daylight and the train was coming and this is so strange this is typically strange for me Back in the day I used to chug coffee like I was prepping for a quantum jump but then I'd crash like my nervous system got slingshotted through a kaleidoscope anxiety spiking aura flickering and REM sleep never met her. It was like drinking battery acid on an empty stomach. Then I found Mudwater. It doesn't fry my circuits or my synapses. I use Mudwater's original blend over ice. It still has a little bit of caffeine, but it's stacked with adaptogens and nootropics like L-theanine, chaga, linesmane, cacao, the whole earth squad to keep you naturally energized and to ensure that you don't wake up with the morning scaries. One sip of Mudwater and my cells report for duty. Two sips and boom, I'm plugged into the fungal Starfleet. All systems go. So are you ready to make the switch to cleaner energy? Head to mudwater.com, that's M-U-D-W-T-R.com and grab your starter kit today. That's M-U-D-W-T-R.com. Right now, our listeners get an exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code JESSE at checkout. That's right, up to 43% off with code JESSE, that's J-E-S-S-E, at mudwater, M-U-D-W-T-R dot com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. On this train, there was a carriage with scrap metal. Piled. She saw two men on that, looking for something. They had some, like, backpacks. But it was not backpacks. It was, they had, like, suits, like the Superman. Yeah. But one color only, silver color, with something protruding out of their back like that. and she watched them and suddenly they were standing on the other edge of this carriage looking at her and they were holding their hands on the belt with a small box and they had very tight helmets small, small heads and some gloves and she was so frightened she was 8 meters from that just very, very close and suddenly she went away and they went away and carried on with whatever they were doing and it was nearly impossible to walk that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal so they just traveled over the metal in a way and were standing there and she turned around and you can see they were still working, looking for something on this carriage interesting super strange did she speculate as to who they were where they were from at all I mean she started to read about UFOs and nowadays she's over 70 years of age and she looks on YouTube and whatever but she asked me what I thought and I said to her this is for me a typical encounter with strange beings because it's not typical you're right so they're so different so diverse. So it's typical for things to be unable to categorize. Yeah, for me, if you really take a look at all of the spectrum, you will find that. That's what Jacques Vallée, you know, John Keel, a lot of these UFO researchers, once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that the phenomena conceals itself with this absurdity element that is injected into every experience. Absurdity is the word, you know, that's keyboard. It's really absurd. And so it's so absurd that it pre-stigmatizes itself. Like the story you just told me of men in a garbage pile seemingly doing the most low-tech thing, wearing the most high-tech suits, teleporting from can to can or whatever. Sounds insane, but I'm sure that happened, you know? And so that seems to be this very common theme, this trickster element. Do you think that that's at play here, this idea that the phenomena almost wants to cover itself. In a way, I agree with you. Because there are so many high strangeness cases. So, the other ones, you say, oh, this is typically Whitley-Sreber alien. They're not very common here in Sweden. You can get them. But if you really dig into all there's the pile of observations you are finding so many other stories when you were talking about the the sighting where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding yeah and the it reminded me of uh of a friend of a friend's account so my my best friend's sister's best friend yeah she was in mexico in bala california i think and just like sunset taking photos of she was drinking like a corona beer she's taking a photo of it with the sunset behind and maybe half an hour later as she goes through the foot as she goes through the photo she sees something very very similar to what this woman oh yeah yeah she drew it so she was very scared to show the photo but she drew she drew it for me and then we were going to get on the phone so that so that she can show me the photo just like via zoom and uh i think she had cold feet and i can't tell if she if it's true that the photo disappeared from her phone but she that's what she says yeah and she just says like she can't find it anymore but it was in one of the photos and again she was looking at what she was taking a photo of she didn't see it with her own eyes but it appeared on the photo I mean that is so interesting because some of those aliens are carrying equipment yeah some are not yeah and it's literally like what you were describing just yeah yeah it is that's amazing that's so crazy with the little backpack and a jumpsuit. It was like some sort of a metal detector thing and they're on the beach in Mexico. It's so weird. Yeah, no, it's almost like a gonzo movie or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absurd. It's absurd. Show the time. Yeah. But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo, they accidentally took a photo of, in this case, an amazing UFO. This is Klaus' new book. files of the unexplained. And do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo? Yeah, it's taken by Hannah McRoberts. We should see if we can find it in here so we can have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which page there it was. Yep. I mean, look at that. So this is Vancouver Island. And you've met her, right? I talked with her on telephone. So what's the story behind this photo? She was out driving together with her husband and she stopped. this mountain is quite well known it was October the 8th 1981 and she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain so she took this picture and coming home later on and got the, because it's an old film, it's not a detailed film, it's an old camera she found that there was something up in the air and it really looks like a proper flying saucer with a dome Do you think this photo is real? I think it's real. I'm not sure how it ended up there, but I talked with her a couple of times, and I mean, she didn't fake it anyway. I think she's really doing this because she's curious about it, which you don't understand. She seems very earnest to you and no grifting or lying vibes. Absolutely not. She helped us with the picture, no problem with that. I mean, it's like this very famous picture, you know, with Elizabeth, this little girl sitting there with a nice dress. And her father out in this moor, there were only them. His wife, little girl, took the picture, and when he got it back from the photographer, the business, he could see this creature standing behind Elizabeth. So the guy who developed this, wow, I'm sorry, but this nice picture of Elizabeth is ruined. Somebody stand behind her. It's called the astronaut because it looks like an astronaut. And nobody knows how it ended up there. Out on this morgue, only them, only three of them, free horizon. Wow. What are the most, because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell, you know, database in the U.S. abductees or experiencers, over 50% experience humanoid creatures. So creatures that seem to be bipedal, walking upright, almost similar to humans in many ways. Is that similar to what you experience in Scandinavia? I mean, we get stories from people that have seen box-like entities floating. So you get it all. If you are into this for a couple of decades, you will find that this is more complex. It's not only humanoids. So interesting. So, yeah, Alien is such a simplistic, it's such an oversimplification. I think so. The idea that's like, oh, we're not alone. They're out in space and they've come here. It makes us understand it. We want to understand strange things. Yes. Well, it's true. I mean, when you look at, you know, it's funny, everybody references in the U.S. the 2017 article from Leslie Kane, which outed, you know, OSAP or whatever, the program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012. And before that, you had Bigelow studying at Skinwalker Ranch. And everybody talks about that, like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program. And if you look at what they were doing at Skinwalker Ranch, it's like they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals. there are poltergeists there's like a werewolf and that's how some of the anti-UFO people try to show they think it's like all crazy or whatever but it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than you can't memefy it into this simple it's just a grey alien they're from Zeta Reticuli they're going to appear at some point in the future it's this game of whack-a-mole and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness as well. It's a good summary I think I mean, you must really look very broad at this. And that's why AFU here is not only a UFO library. It's about the unknown. So how do you make, because you have done this sheer Herculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in, which is filled to the brim with documents. How do you make progress in a field where what we just described, it's almost like Descartes' demon where your whole perceptive apparatus, everything you see is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities showing up in random places and it's like, how do you progress in a field where it's like we're chimps and we're trying to study humans how do you progress? It is very difficult to do that Yeah. So most ufologists are looking at a particular small part of the subject. And if you do like this, you will never get ready with what you're doing. Right. Because it's so very much more complex than you thought from the beginning. So most ufologists are saying, okay, this is not interesting. I'm looking at that. Yes. And I think that's not the way forward, really. But even... beyond that like i look at like uh you know jacques valet who we were talking about earlier one of the best theorists on the topic you know for french godfather of a lot of modern amazing guy and you know on par with you as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge he you know like if you read some of his early books like invisible college or something in 1975 Are we that much farther as far as the theory as to what's happening than he was then? No, I don't think so. I don't think so either. That's sad, really. It is. And it really impossible to get further because it so huge Yes And there is no really good scientific approach to this Yes Yet. We have certain scientists that are interested in this, but they are looking at their small bits and pieces as well. Would one new scientific model involve, you know, science is supposed to be, you're supposed to be this impartial observer. Yeah. And then you have the observed and there's, you know, clear and distinct separation. between those two. But maybe in this new model, your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject somehow matters. Absolutely. I met with a friend of mine who is a doctor, and he's also very much into the human consciousness research. He's done research on twins and see what's happening if a twin is hurt and if the other is affected. And he found that, yes, there are clear indications that twins are interacting without knowing that. And he really says to me that the human consciousness is a big part, even of the UFO phenomenon. It has to be. And I think so as well. Yes. Are you familiar with studies in parapsychology and that sort of thing? Yeah. Because if there is some sort of mind-matter interaction, then that obviously has to affect what we see. Yeah, we know so little about what's inside our heads. Yes. Gray mass, but that's not the answer. Do you think, you know, when you speak to Jacques Vallée, he says, you know, I would be very disappointed to find that these were just beings from another planet. From my own point of view, I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet, because I think there could be something much more interesting. It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with space-time itself, where time, it seems like time travel is this big theme in a lot of his writings, and when he speaks and stuff, is that something you've thought about at all? Yeah, absolutely. I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one. I think there are many different answers from different parts of this huge complex. so it's very hard for say a scientist to approach this with an astronomer they will only look at this very small part there need to be a group of scientists and ufologists or whatever doing this together time travel time travel there's a time travel section no what time and time travel what time loops and space twists see if I can find a Wendell Stevens I have no clue, now I will crush crush Amar I'm just kidding this is the NASA scientist oh wow so you can see here if you read the labels here, Corliss Yeah, William Cordes. He wrote this series of books called Sourcebook Project. Ah. Only about enigmas. So, psychology. So here you can see his working papers. Then he passed away, and I called it his widow, and it took me a couple of years. Was he at all, like, was there any part of his official work at NASA that overlapped with UFOs? No. Or it was just a hobby? Yeah, just a hobby. This is what they look like. Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh, my God. This guy's a genius. Yeah. Who is this guy? He was a genius. This is amazing. We corresponded for many years, then he passed. Wow. And then I wrote to his estate. Yeah. To come to his son. And his wife was 90 plus. Uh-huh. And she started to compile everything in order for us. Wow. And we sent two pallets from the U.S. Oh, she's amazing. Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderlands Science Research Association, BSRA. What? That's the most interesting UFO organization because they knew, you know, they knew about crashes sometimes before they would happen. Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s. Yeah. About stuff. They were first. So what's their deal? Because they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician and... Yeah. So, and then they had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did. I went to Eureka, California. I met with this guy in his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Wow. And you have Tesla and what is this, Brown and Burridge? It's probably correspondence. Who's Brown? Maybe Townsend Brown. I'm not sure. Who can take a look? I don't know. The immortal cell. Ron Brown. Ron Brown. Oh, Townsend Brown. Yeah. You can take a look and see what this is. It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees. A UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me. but better. Same face, same great hair, but something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just $79. Six fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, 2026 me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off their first order plus free shipping at theperfectgene.nyc or just google the perfect gene and use code JESSE15 for 15% off. That's 15% off for new customers at theperfectgene.nyc with promo code JESSE15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Get your khakis and get the perfect gene. T.T. Brown electrokinetic generator. Here, look. That's amazing. Patent office for the electrokinetic generator. Well, the Borderlands Society, they had connections with Brown. They had some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring. but I'm not sure if they're functioning but I think they are still left in Eureka Really? What apparatus? I don't really know It's like big boxes with switches Really? What? I want to check that out I'm more interested in him than anyone else Yeah, I understand I read a book about him just a couple of months ago The Man Who Mastered Gravity? What did you think? I think it was fascinating It's fascinating, right? Isn't he the most interesting man? So many mysteries around him. So many mysteries around him. He was onto something, I think so. I think so. Yeah. I think there's something very interesting about him. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. There's a guy named Townsend Brown. Okay, okay, Townsend Brown. I want to look that up. The holy grail of physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematically. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long saw at length. Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most? I grew up with the Bonnie and Betty Hill case, of course, and that was hugely important to me. And when I met Betty many years ago in the early middle of the 80s, I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses. What was your new view on her when you met with her? Yeah, well, I was... Most ufologists, if you read the books, it says that Betty Hill was not interested in UFOs at all before the encounter at the Indian Head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she was. Really? And not only that. She told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her, or I think it was sister, whatever. It was a relative. And something came across in the sky and crashed. And they went out in the field and brought back debris. What? From this crashed object. A few years ago, before this happened, this was in the 50s, I was over here in Maine, visiting with the family. And it was a warm night, and we're sitting outdoors on the porch, when we saw what we thought at that time was a plane very slowly going across the sky. And while we're watching it, it exploded midair and burned. Now, we said, you know, we've seen a plane blow up. We turned on the radio. We turned on the TV. Nothing. Well, up to my mother's, my nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky. And he watched it and when it cooled off, he got some of that. And my sister gave some pieces to me and said, no, we don't know what it is. Maybe I have some friends at the university. Maybe you can get someone to analyze it. So I had all these pieces. And I had them in the closet there on the top shelf. And, you know, I didn't find anybody to analyze them. So just before, about four days before we left to go on the trip, Barney said, what's that stuff up on the top shelf? Why don't you throw If I just threw it away, we could use the shelf. Well, I was having some filth in the backyard. So I took the pieces and I threw them in the backyard, and when they dumped the sand, they covered them. And about three days later, we go on the trip. Really? Betty Hill? Yeah. Before her encounter? Everything is still out there in the garden. So we got to go to her house. You must dig there. I will. Yeah, it's not her house anymore. But it's in New Hampshire? It's in Portsmouth. In Portsmouth, New Hampshire. No way. So that story you can listen to at IFU's website. I have this conversation with her. It's in writing, and you can hear her voice telling this as well. But the bottom line is she was very much into UFOs. That's fascinating. We got to go dig. Not the single UFOs, really. cares about this they don't want to know this her granddaughter is a ufc fighter yeah and i think she's friends with joe rogan and has gone on the show so maybe yeah contact her yeah say hey we're the residents of the current house this is i know you can go dig and find this thing you're wearing this epic betty and barney hill oh geez first abductees 1961 no i know his granddaughter yeah Angela Hill, right? She's a UFC fighter? Yeah. So cool. Crazy. What does she say? She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over. You don't tell Joe Rogan. Her grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's mad. That's amazing. You should do that. She was a lovely lady, I should say. And she told a very interesting story. And also when she drew the object to me, it looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim, like a hat. Wow. And you believed her? Did you feel like she was being honest with you? Yeah, she was absolutely honest with me. And as I said, she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake and we were there all the day and spoke with her. But it complicated the story. Yeah. just for the audience the core story is in 1961 Betty and Barney Hill they were an interracial couple and they were ACLU activists actually and they were on a road trip from I think it was like Niagara Falls or they were in Canada and they were coming back down to New Hampshire and on the way they see this craft and it's flying around and I believe there's audio and we'll play the audio for the audience, but Barney starts to go after the saucer, almost like it's like he's locked into it and she's afraid and wants to keep going. And then he's very afraid after that, so he don't want to pursue it. I'll take it in my head. Pull the binoculars away. God, give me strength. All right. Pull it down. Pull it up and down and run. God! It says, my God, give me a chance. I've got to get away. Oh! Oh! So, anyways, they meet these beings. They say they're from Zeta Reticuli. They have these uniforms on, these little gray beings. They get taken up on the craft. Reluctantly, I believe Barney then admits that, like, samples were taken, like, gametes were taken, sperm cells from him. so it almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them they checked on his teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth ah interesting they came running into betty and asking oh what what is that interesting that's the interesting thing about those aliens they don't seem to know anything about anything i mean you should think that they should know they're right yeah but they're in in that account it almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's like this routine thing. But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with a needle and that was old here at that point really. I mean, it's not very high tech. Nobody does that anymore. So why do aliens from Sitter, ethically, use a method that is ancient? What do you think? I think this is not visitors in that way. And this was only told during hypnosis. Yes, later, hypnotic regret. They never really remembered it in the waking. So what do you think they had an encounter with? It's very hard to tell, but I think that all those stories are much more complicated. Much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth. Right. She told Barney about her interest in that, and he didn't like that at all. But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them, when in fact what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if the beings said we're from Zeta Reticuli, that does point. Well, they didn't say that because that was the star map. She drew a star map, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that star map is, of course, you can do that with lots of stars. Right. So it's not... But they said we're from another star system. She asked about this map on the wall, and they told her that this was commercial lines for them traveling to make business. Yeah. Really. I believe, have you read American Cosmic by Dana Pasolka? Oh, yeah. Are you familiar with it? Yeah. So she talks about the CBS show Outer Limits playing. That was at that time. Playing 11 days, premiering 11 days before this encounter that Penny and Barney Hill had. That show and the crashed metal debris in her cupboard. That had happened before. So many things before. So we cannot really be sure exactly how they interpreted things during hypnosis. Right. Well, Pasolka also says that the aliens in Outer Limits have eyes that wrap around their heads. And that's what they see as well. So it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by maybe their preconceived notions and knowledge. So interesting. You know, also another weird fact about that case is C.D. Jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson, who ran Psychological Warfare and was very involved in MKUltra and then went on to, I believe, give the Supruder film, which is the film of JFK getting, shot with the missing frames he gives that to time magazine because he's very involved in sort of a perception management for the public at the time he's head of the psychological strategy board um with gordon gray and a few other guys at the time he goes and visits betty and barney hill a few weeks after their abduction okay so interesting it's like so it was already like you're talking about the elite of the elite of american warfare operations a you know a guy who's very high up in government going to visit these two abductees so strange in 1961 yeah wow i don't know it's not easy you know it's not easy but i think we have to find that artifact yeah yeah have you been digging for any other artifacts are they any other yeah we have here in sweden we have been up in the north uh there was a guy who said that he was a young boy he met this craft and aliens outside his house and he got this thing from them some sort of metallic tablet and he uh he hid it he hid it on the ground and we went there together with him trying to find it wow but we couldn't find it really no is there anything have you ever found any objects that you think are no no we haven't the only one that i showed you i mean things like that but not any bona fide smoking income, things like that. Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with? Because as you know, Jacques Vallée publishes his mailing address online. People will mail him pieces. And recently, Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan Experience. And, you know, one of the pieces came from Ubatuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach and the fishermen. magnesium exactly magnesium with extremely anomalous isotope ratio it also read that there were such things at that time well i think it would have been possible to have created but you would have needed a centrifuge yeah and why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge you know give a piece of metal to somebody in brazil on the beach to mail to jacques it just feels a little crazy but why do you build a spaceship with magnesium it doesn't really it's not very good to travel in oh i'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium okay because magnesium bismuth is a high k dielectric so it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly and so if you look at like um you know my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the byfield brown effect been named after townsend brown yeah and if you put a high-K dielectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically, the higher the dielectric. So all of his papers include, it's two things, it's aluminum barium and magnesium bismuth. And bismuth specifically is this big, really important part. But I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some issues with it. Yeah, magnesium itself is not good, but this alloy may be something different. Well, it seems like what he found had, it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair. Bismuth layers less than a human hair. Magnesium samples about 10 times the size of a human hair. And so it's extremely thinly aligned. And I think you get these topological insulators like that where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale, and you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these things. So why do they explode over Yuba Tuba? So the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust. That's almost like the byproduct of the craft, and who knows, you know. So the exhaust should spit out metallic debris. Yeah, I don't know. Is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something? or is it a byproduct of an effect where they take the natural things and then they're doing something and this ends up being the outcome and then when they're done with it, they go, ugh, and they throw it out. Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can? I hope, of course, but I'm not sure I can. But if there is a report, we will, of course, go there and try to find it. We are mostly focused on finding recent ghost rocket crashes. I mean, in 1980, there was a landing and an object that sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Damajaur. And we have been there. And we have radar returns that something is in the mud. Really? Yeah. Amazing. Yes. When are you going to go look? We will be there again next year. That's exciting. So hopefully we can find something. Two very good witnesses. Wow. In the middle of the day. and they could see this object coming below 100 meters. Yeah. Flying over them. They follow it over the lake and it turns around 180. Yeah. Towards them, lands with a splash and sinking. And bubbles are coming up and then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from their rucksack and take a picture. Of course, it's gone. But they take a picture two minutes after the object is gone. They go back to Stockholm and contact the military. And the military's UFO expert at that time, Studi Vikic, he really looks into this, tries to find an explanation. But they couldn't do that. And they sent a helicopter over the lake. And I met one of the pilots, and he told me, this is a natural park. You're not allowed to land there. but suddenly one of the passengers felt sick. Yeah. So they land. And they can see dead fish near the shore. So I take the fish with them and think, wow, this is atomic power, some radioactivity, I killed the fish, but it was only a parasite. And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later. So just a parasite. Yeah. but the object is there it's 4 meters of mud and our expert who went with us said if you see something it will be not at the bottom of the lake but in between 2 meters and exactly there we got this return from an object that is still resting there we don't know what it is but there is some object do you know the shape of the object no we only saw it in 2 dimensions the next trip we will look in three dimensions wow we are not allowed to bring anything with us from this national park because it's a natural park so if we find something we cannot bring it well if you need any extra media coverage or help in any way I would love to come I call you that sounds amazing it is amazing and this is a very good observation and we have several cases like that that objects have like in Norway flying very low, turning, navigating, landing, sinking. Interesting. And it always seems to be in water. Always water. And the thing is, which I didn't really think about until recently, that all those observations around water, of course, people are living there. It's summer. They are out. It's good observation. I mean, they could see over the lake. But not a single one has seen any object flying over the lake. and not landing. Every single observation ends with a crash or a landing, not a flyby. It's so interesting. Why do you think that is? I mean, they want to land. They want to crash. They want to pinpoint a lake. That's for sure. And I'm not sure why they do this. Do you think it's fuel? I mean, they're running out of fuel? No. Do you think water is their fuel? How do you mean that? Because, you know, the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen, H2O, are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then they would be extremely energetic. That would be an extremely energetic reaction that could, you know, power a craft. I think it's like driving your car into a gas station full power and trying to get some petrol. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, they should land and be there for a while and then fly away. Right. But they are either crashing straight down or landing quite hard. Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective, and it might be refueling. I just, who knows, you know? It's interesting. I mean, water just seems like this very important element, you know, the idea that they're transmedium. Water is important. It is not a single object that's crashed on land in Sweden or Norway. That's amazing, yeah. The fact that they literally only, the ghost rocket phenomenon. But you're saying, because we talked about this the other week, you're saying that it's not just the ghost rocket phenomena that only hits the water. You're saying all UFOs have only landed in the water in Sweden generally. Sweden, Scandinavia. In Scandinavia. Yeah. So post-46, 47, all UFOs. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it is wow. That's so interesting. And it's all nearly always, 11 o'clock July, clear weather, hot weather. That's what you said last time. It's so wild. So strange. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's definitely some selection bias based on, or observer bias, because that's when people are on their lake houses. Yeah, but that's when you see some flybys. Yeah, it's weird. I don't. We see those landings and crashes. It's so strange. But we have only a small sample. I mean, maybe 30. Still, that's enough. That's a really important trend. You were just given access to incredibly sensitive DOD archives here in Sweden. What did you see? I've been looking for the files from a very important military, customs, police operation in the early 1970s. They are still to be released in 2040, but I just the other day got the clearance to get them cleared. And did you see them Yeah I looked through them but I would get a copy of them in a week or two Well what did you see The interesting thing is that I found one observation that I knew the observer this helicopter pilot He was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in nighttime. Very strange object. sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift, go up with his helicopter, trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co-pilot, which I will talk to next week, he was flying 20 meters over the treetops. And it was moonshine, it was snow, so it was very, very good seeing. And suddenly this object coming, flying under the helicopter, over the treetops, in this small passage of 20 meters, and straight up in front of them, an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings, no lights, nothing. And it just flies away. And it told me that I did like this. I lifted my feet because it was so near our helicopter. Wow. And now when I got those documents, I found this report. I could see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths. And also the note from the military. So it's picked up by radar. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And they land. After this, they're landing. What? And the security, the military security personnel comes and debriefs them. And he tells a story, and they went away. What was the shape of the object? It was an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings. So similar to the ghost rockets? Typical ghost rockets. Typical ghost rockets. What year was this? 1975, November the 7th. How fast was it moving, the object? It was much faster than the helicopter, but they had plenty of time to see it because of the moon and the snow on the ground. That's amazing because in the U.S. you have, you know, the kind of one of the Holy Grail events is the Tic Tac incident at Nimitz in 2004. And you don't have radar data for that. You have forward-looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. And they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. In this case, you have an eyewitness, and you were able to see corroboration from the DOD archives that this object intersected this helicopter at this time. That's amazing. And I will talk to his co-pilot in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we have two witnesses, documentation, and what I'm looking for now is, of course, the security personnel's notes. Wow. I have no access to them, and I think I will not have any access to them. How would you get that? I will try to get it. How would you get the security personnel? I know people that work within the war archives, and they can help me to say if it's there. To see if he was actually debriefed when he came down. I'm sure he was, because the whole operation was built on that, that you were debriefing people after all those events. And you've spoken to this witness firsthand. Yeah, firsthand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot just a couple of days ago. As soon as I found those documentations, I called him and said, okay, now I know which date it was. And I can see that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter. And this is being declassified for everybody? At what point will this be released to the public? It will be. When I'm getting it, it will be. And so when will that be? When this will be released? In a couple of weeks, I think. It all depends on how much I have to do scanning. Is the pilot in Stockholm? No. Where is the pilot? It's far away from here, so to say. In Sweden, though. It's really nearer Norway than Stockholm. In Sweden, yeah. Damn. The other pilot is in Australia. Okay. Wow. Amazing. Well, that seems like an unprecedentedly important case. It is. It is a good case. I hope that I can really find all the pieces here. Do you have any other cases like that where you have radar corroboration for an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very important. Yeah, we do have. I've seen with my own eyes military radar, UFO. Really? You've seen with your own eyes. And when was that? and what's the context? It was, I think, in 2005. It's what we call the first mobile picture of a UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting playing card quite late, and they hear a strange noise. So they went out, and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them, and it's moving around this cottage. So one of them get this mobile phone and take a picture. And you can see it's a very bright object with flashes around, but that's probably a lens flare. But it's a very bright object. And it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the military radar unit, which is very secret. You cannot just go there. but I know people. And I can see the radar returns from this event. You can see the object coming, going around. It's amazing. So, yeah, that's the case you can cooperate. That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen, so you don't have UFO material, have you seen the remnants of a UFO, just like you showed me that little piece of rock where it's interacted with a local physical environment in some way that's left out? No, not here in Sweden. Okay. because you told me last time about lily pads being affected by the ghost rockets you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment radar is obviously reflecting radio waves and so that's like it's a really important you know and I interviewed six people at the radar station in the very north of Sweden ah really I found them one by one they were there in the winter of 1973 1974 At that point, they had left this mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at the launch. And they are looking out around and suddenly they see over the treetops this cigar-shaped object moving like this. So they are running down into the radar equipment and looked and they can see the object on their radar screens. And it's doing 90 degrees angles like this. Whoa. And suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up. And every one of those six, I found them during several years, are telling the same story. Wow. Yeah. All six. Yeah. That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff? No, I have them on tape only. Well, that's good. The problem is that they told me that their commander in the mounting, they were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screen. So they did. Yeah. But I have found them. I don't know where they can be. Is the tape published on your website? No. No, I never published the tape. I've written about them in my books and things like that. This is Hilary Evans and his wife, Mary Evans. They run this... They have passed away now, but it's still Mary Evans Picture Library. You can buy pictures, one of the biggest picture archives in England. Cool. And half of the books you see here come from Hilary. Look at these books. Some of these are beautiful. Yeah. Those are the classics ones, really. Yeah, Frederick W.H. Myers. Yeah. I have that book. And we have it in very early editions. You know what inspired him to write this book? I don't remember now. Jesus' Resurrection. He wanted to prove it using science. Well, he didn't manage that. William James was president of Society for Psychical Research, but he was close with William James and part of that. You know what this is? Yeah, of course. What do you think of this? I think it's something military, but not what the conspiracy theorists... Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control. Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing it very badly. Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares. Yeah. So what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magnetosphere of the Earth might be weakening. The magnetic poles are shifting. that's proven. Yes, but the Charles Hapgood that creates this sort of cataclysm No, not Charles Hapgood's theory really but the science theory is really solid and it could be problematic when it happens Interesting. Because every gadget you have trying to navigate with would be topsy-turvy Yeah, and some of the solar events in the past like the 1859 Carrington event would wipe everything out. If that happens today, it'd be very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi, no, yeah. Your grid would be down, no running water. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't have the spare parts. Yeah. So it would take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system. Do you think that solar flares send with them a message or there's any sort of intelligent, you know, there's a scientist in the UK he's in London, in Hampstead, outside of London, named Rupert Sheldrake. And he talks about, he writes about the sun being conscious. Yeah. He wrote the Gaia book in the 1970s. Yeah. I grew up with that and I know about Rupert Sheldrake very well. Yeah. No, I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star. Uh-huh. And the star does what the star does. Yeah. And the earth is not important to the star. Yes, but okay, if I were to push back, maybe. the magnetosphere of the earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like you could put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it won't grow correctly. If you put it next to a Wi-Fi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the Schumann resonance, which is part of the anthropic principle that allows things to grow. And then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for biological evolution. If evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive. And if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that Hal Puthoff is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field. NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics. And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun and they move in ways that don't decay or attenuate over space time like your traditional transverse Herzian wave. So you could have some sort of communication, you know, to life on Earth via the sun. I don't think it's communication. I think it's what the star does. I mean, every star does things like that, and they are not aware of it. They only do their thing. But, of course, it affects the life on Earth, absolutely. Yes, but you could say something very similar about a human through a materialist reductionist lens. You could say we're ultimately, we have the illusion of consciousness, but we're not conscious. And so, you know, we'll never know. We'll never know, of course. I think it's quite a big difference between us and the sun. It's impossible to say, though. I mean, clearly, yes, phenomenologically. But, you know, are we anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness, you know, at a certain scale because that's our scale? You know, I don't know. We are a tiny fraction of the universe. Yes. This is my friend, Frederick Uldall. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him? No. Ah, he's cool. Omar and I met him, actually. It was two summers ago. This was right before we did the David Grush thing. So how many countries do you have files from? Two. I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files. Wow. I went to Russia once trying to save the KGB files. And when I went there, it was fighting in the streets. There were soldiers everywhere. They were shooting. But we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files. Omar, do you have anything coming up for you? You clearly have spent decades doing this, and I'm just curious why. Yeah, why am I doing this? because I'm very curious about how our world functions. I want to know what people really see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several, several cases. I know what I saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very baffled about. But I don't want to prove anything. I have no axe to grind. I'm not a believer I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answers could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning. Is there something autobiographical, whether it's synchronicities you experience, something in your own life that keeps you going where when you're thinking of maybe stopping or quitting I'm not quite stubborn I'm stubborn It sounds like you are. Yeah, and I'm a natural researcher, really, from the beginning. I'm an amateur astronomer and all that. I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden. That's amazing. So people know that I really try very hard. And, of course, it's okay to believe, but I want to know. Yeah. And when you say no, what is that, if you were to instantiate that in something very specific? Yeah, I want to know what happened, really. I'm not sure I want... So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you? Do you want a material where you're like, this is definitely a UFO? In every single case, I want to know what happened. Oh, that's tough, man. It's tough. I even think about what people talk about as disclosure. It's like if a craft were right here, and it had isotope ratios that were weird, and technology that we don't really understand as far as anti-gravity, some heavy element reactor thing, what would that do for us? Change everything, of course. It would change everything, but it would beget a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like your whole I want to know. It wouldn't be like I know now. It would be like, tell me what is going on. It's impossible. As you say, every knowledge gets some new questions. That's true. knowledge um questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge yeah growing so it's like you can think of knowledge like a like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something the more the sphere grows the the questions grow you know the outside uh at an exponent yeah and so it's the the more you know the less you know and that that really should be sort of with with everything but then you have these sort of stultified fields which is how you know academia teaches it where it's like there's this received wisdom and it's like the law of thermodynamics and it's like you get to the end of the chapter and that's it you know the end of it but nothing is that simple I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today yes but the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger yes as it's moving into the future. That's beautiful. Suddenly we are a little higher up, but there is always a new mountain. Are there any philosophers in UFO space or even outside of UFOs who you think speak most to the UFO question or researchers that you're really inspired by? Yeah, I'm inspired by, of course, we have said Jacques Vallée, but Chris Orbeck is a very, very good researcher. He's the best researcher when it comes to old cases. Yes. He's fantastic. His books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called Saucers shows that the saucer shape is so scarce. It's not very much reported. Yes. Still people talk about flying saucers sometimes and think that it should be saucer-like. Yeah. But it's only a fraction of all the observations. They are saucer-like. Yeah, even if you look at where the saucer came from, you know, the Kenneth Arnold case, it wasn't really saucers. No. They kind of looked more like Horton Wing. Yeah, they were crescents. Crescents, yeah. Like ninja stars or something. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, it's interesting. Do you think, you know, Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers. Are you familiar with this? Yeah, I read it, yeah. And he said that, You know, that was the mandala, which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness, is represented in the UFO. Archetype he talks about. In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to you for research. Yeah. But, of course, if you're living in a society, you are telling the stories that society can manage to listen to. Yes. And we are conforming all the time. So it's not strange that those airships in the 1800s. Yes. And full fighters and then ghost rockets and now spaceships. It's just that we are using the words we have, the most high-tech thing we can think of. Yes. So I don't think it must be anything of that. But what's also just John Mack, Harvard head of the psychiatry department there, he would say that the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create. So it is in some ways... Even diesel, really, I think. Yeah. So in some ways, you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself. Like airships were just starting to be a thing, but they weren't really a thing in the 1890s. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation. And you can say the same about the sci-fi writers, you know. Yes. They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon. Yes. They read the sci-fi first. Oh, yeah. And they were inspired by that and thought, wow, this could be done. Yes. So you need that element to be able to take the next step. You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need the mythological element almost always supersedes the actual doing of the thing. But I think we've lost that for at least a little period after World War II, maybe an hour. It seems like things are speeding up again. I mean, after the World War II, we were occupied with other stuff, really. Yes. Building the world again. So, yeah, the dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for a while. Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves that interacts at all with the UFO phenomenon in a deeper way than meets the eye? I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Because you said you spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right? Yeah, yeah. So Edgar Mitchell is the sixth man to walk on the moon. Yeah. Apollo 14 on the way back from the moon, he had this sort of parapsychological conversion where he. It was an experiment with a Swedish guy, really. Ah, really? Tell me about it. Yeah, they had managed to put this program that Edgar Mischel should be sending things. The other one was to pick them up. So like a typical mind matter experiment where you have a sender and a receiver. Okay. But there are some problems with that because the time frames were not followed as they should have been. But it was interesting that they did it. Very. And was it a successful experiment? Not that successful. Okay. No, no. That's too bad. It didn't prove anything, really. No, but it was done, and that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards, Edgar Mitchell, that worked with psychical things. The noetic society. Yeah. Did you learn anything when you spent time with him? Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was that not a single astronaut had ever seen a UFO in space. I mean... I'm not sure about that. I'm sure. He said it to me. So, I mean. Yeah, but maybe. He knew them all. But they all signed NDAs. And I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War II. And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin's like, I'm in this country. I'm in this country. and he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin. And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin says, I'm not doing the interview. I said, what do you mean you're not doing it? It was like, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen, just invested in SETI, and he got labeled a UFO freak or something, and I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's going to help put civilians into space. I can't do it. He's implying that he has something to say about UFOs. But if he did, it would hurt his reputation. Then he said, he said, and how's my story going to change anything anyway? And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Your testimony would be paramount to do that. Remember, this is in the 90s, right? Yeah, probably late 90s. I talked to him, but yeah, it was a while ago. And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm sorry, it's not going to happen. So I was devastated, like devastated. I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right? You never know. You want to believe. But he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about UFOs. And then there's speculation, obviously, in American Cosmic that astronauts sign NDAs for a reason. And you have this guy who now has been outed. His name is Tim Taylor. He's a NASA mission controller. And he says, you know, astronauts are forced to stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about this. I know a lot of astronauts and consultants. You do, yeah. And not a single one of them has said anything like that. Fair enough. Do you know any very well? Yeah, I mean, the Swedish ones I know very well. Okay. I go to Neugemitsche very well. I met with a couple of guys who walked on the moon and a few, maybe 10 cosmonauts from Russia and one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule and he produced those ice particles flying out and he said, wow, look there oh wow, it's a fleet of UFOs that I know but I only try to comment on things that I really spend time. Do you know who Lienev is? One of the fathers of the Russian space program? No, I don't know. So his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Ia Whiteley. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts and she says they all see stuff in space too. It's so interesting because that you seem extremely hard-headed and thorough. I mean, you're like the most thorough guy ever. And so I fully trust you when you say you know a lot of astronauts. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. Yeah, me too. Not from someone else who says, oh, what I have to say. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is Edgar Mitchell left behind an estate, and he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson Memo, which is now talked about ad nauseum in American UFO disclosure, you know, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian scientist, who's obviously extremely well versed in exotic propulsion and, you know, UFO stuff, related stuff. And Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology. and they're meeting outside of the EG&G parking lot and Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs. That wasn't meant for public consumption and that was released from Mitchell's estate and that was supposed to be destroyed one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from who generated it. And unfortunate that his kids were sloppy and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document, if he should die, but he was supposed to destroy that as far as I understand. It seems like Edgar Mitchell had some really interesting access. He was very interested. In UFOs? Yeah, absolutely, very interested. Why did he, if he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space. He does a couple of parapsychology experiments. why does he come back so high conviction that you know he was a believer even before i mean he was yeah he was curious about this but he didn't see anything and he says that no one else did so uh i only can tell what he told me what were the interesting things he told you now we talked a lot about he met with yuri geller you know he did experiments yuri geller he was very much impressed by him i met with yuri geller as well i'm not impressed by him at all I have friends who do exactly the same tricks as he can do Yeah he seems like a bit of a con man he uh yeah well he also he got now he goes on twitter and he goes he goes put in don press the button he goes i i had a vision that you're going to and it's like he's been wrong so many times that it's like nobody even care anymore and i met with uh james randy you know james randy yeah of course yeah yeah we sat like this but even closer yeah and he he bent his spoon in front of I mean, I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he did it. He meant it like that. I couldn't see it. Yeah. But the thing he did, he put my hand over my watch. Yeah. And then his hand over my hand, and then he moved it. And it was five hours like that. Yep. And we did it again, and it was back to the same time. So interesting. It's hard to do that. Well, he was an amazing magician. Yeah, he was the amazing Randy. The amazing Randy. But he also, I don't know, I think in some ways he could have been a bad faith actor. Yuri Geller is one of these things where, cases where, you know the Princeton Parapsychology Lab has a whole book on Yuri Geller, and they studied him a lot. Andrei Puharic brought Yuri Geller to the States. I think it was there, again, Michelle met with Yuri Geller. Oh, interesting. Yeah. so I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure parapsychology perspective and then he also blew it out of proportion, had all this BS stage magic that he was doing and then you get the amazing James Randy with his prize to be skeptical. But the most gullible people you can ask for are the scientists you should put the... That's interesting what do you mean? I kind of agree with you, but what do you mean by that? They are not prepared to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it. Ah. So they think that reality is, ah, that's so interesting. Yeah. So they're not prepared for a magic trick or something. No, no. Ah, that's a good, that's so fascinating. I like the way you put that. Anything else Edgar Mitchell told you? Oh, we talked for hours and hours. I don't remember now. I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English if you are looking for my name and Ed Mitchell. Cool. Because I published it and it's out there. That's fascinating. But it was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in. What UFO-related meeting impacted you the most? Oh, that was hard. I mean, when I was young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me. Because there was this huge observation near my hometown when I was 16. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours an object moving in the south. and I was out behind my house at the same time, 100 kilometers away. And I also saw the object. But they didn't understand what it was. And they were so excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful and there was so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this. And I knew what it was. I wrote to the newspapers. I was 16, and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. No way. And I was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it. They were printed in the newspapers. And I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taken the same evening of Jupiter. Why? The same stars. Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter? Because they didn't know what it was. And? It doesn't normally show in the sky there. One guy, a civilian, was there. He was an Adamski believer. Okay. He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with aliens. Yeah. And he pointed to his object and said, can't you see the windows? And they were looking, yeah, yeah, we can see the windows. What they could see were the moons, the three moons that were Jupiter at that point. That's unbelievable. So he was impacting them. And that was very, very good learning for me. That if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff. Because you don't want to be the guy that spoils the party. So they're crowd-like dynamics. Absolutely. This was my first big UFO case. That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case like the Atacama mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that? You debunk this case. Yeah, I did. And then at what point do you decide you're going to dedicate your life to UFO research? I already decided that a couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to understand. I have to understand. But why did you decide that a couple months earlier? What was the moment? I started a small UFO society in my hometown called UFO Maristad. Had you had an experience? No, no, no. Not at that time. I had not seen anything. I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see. I wanted to know what people saw in the sky. Have you had an experience since then? Yeah, yeah. I had an experience together with my wife. 1995, November the 5th. We were out traveling by car. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. I think it was a birthday party. I was driving. Man, Anneli was sitting beside me. We were just coming into the suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus stop, waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. The other one was looking. So I said to Annelie, can you lean forward and see what they were looking at? But she did that. But she said, no, it's a fantastic sky. It was. It was a brilliant, starry sky all the night we were traveling back to Stockholm. So we passed them, and we were quite near our house. I parked the car inside our garage, and we went out, and I thought, now I will take a look and see if I can probably find out it was a planet. or whatever. So we scanned the sky. We stood one meter from each other and suddenly out of the black in Gemini between Castro and Pollux not from the horizon just bang came three illuminated plus signs. Boom, boom, boom. Wow. And they flew. They flew over us. And I only saw it immediately so I didn't have to say anything but I said oh did you see yeah yeah so he ran after them around the corner because they passed over our roof and we could see them flying over our neighbor's roof and vanishing and they were like glued together it was a small space beside them but they were glued together and they were so easy to see when you say glued together I mean they were moving exactly the same speed three different plus signs. Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another? Or were they... Beside each other. So it was a... So they were plus sign formations of UFOs. No, they were plus signs. Solid plus signs. Wow. Have you ever heard of a case like that? Not at that point, but I took a look. I should say one more thing. I said to Annalie, we don't talk we go inside here's a form you sit in the kitchen I'm sitting here spoken like a true UFO researcher so you literally made yourself like this double blind and then you both described what you see and you didn't talk that's amazing you maintain your discipline even in your own sighting what should I do that's awesome so we made drawings and everything and they were not exactly the same they never are but they were of the same objects. Wow. Yeah. And after that, I put an investigator from UFO Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't. Were the plus signs, what color, white? White. Okay. And how fast were they traveling? Wow. How low were they? They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell. I mean, was the black sky and stars but they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude, they were lower Any other anomalies like red angle turns or disappearing or lights The thing was that they were really coming out of the blue or the black not from the horizon that was a strange thing It's like they just appeared And I never I never talked about this to anyone for months except for the researcher because it was so strange. But half a year later, I was interviewed on radio, and I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie. So I told the story. And then the telephone rang a couple of hours later, and the guy said, you should talk to my mother. I called her, she was in her 80s and she was a young girl in the 30s and she had been out with her mother who was inside a house she was waiting outside the house in this field middle of the day, sunny she was just bored and suddenly on the road in front of her three illuminated plus signs appeared out of nowhere rolling on the road huge and gone Wow. Were yours also rolling like that? No. Okay, hers were. Yeah. Yours were more floating. Yeah, they were rigid, really. Wow. That must have, it's almost like a cosmic joke that the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so not like the flying saucer, or even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much, or triangles, or it's the more common thing. Class, do you ever wonder what if in one of these random manila envelopes? The answer. Yeah, or is this the most undeniable evidence? Yeah, of course. We haven't read them. Yeah. I mean, we have read some of them. So we need to get you funding, man. Yeah, we really need to get some funding to make this available. Do you have any plans to digitize? We do it all the time. Okay. All the time. We only have one guy to do it. Oh. So he's sitting under an avalanche, you know. Well, what's that guy's name? Let's give him a shout-out. Leif Ostrand, he's a real hero. Leif Ostrand, thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher and has gone the deepest on the files besides you? Yeah, yeah. Who could that be? We have some friends in Europe, of course. Gregor Jedgian. Yeah, Gregor Jedgian from the U.S. He spent a couple of weeks here writing his book. He's a professor in history in Penn State. Interesting. Is he into UFOs? He wrote this book about the history of UFOs. He did? Yeah. Okay. I don't know who he is, really. No, he's often on TV. I think he's like an expert. He's very good. Do you like him? Yeah, I like him. Really good researcher. Do you know the Penn State, Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is? Walker. Dr. Eric Walker. He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was a lead scientist, and he had a lot of interesting meetings where he seemed to claim that he was part of the Majestic 12. There's a British-Armenian physicist named Azadel, and that guy spoke to... Henry Azadel. Henry Azadel. He's a very, very elusive guy. He has several names. He published this Silver Diamond South Africa thing, which is a fraud. So do you think he's like an intelligence? Yeah, I don't trust him at all. So maybe do you think his conversation wasn't real with... I don't know about Henry Azadero. He's not a bona fide UFO guy. Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker? No, I don't know about that, but I know about Henry Azadero. So, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron. Yeah, yeah. So Grant Cameron wrote a book, and it is a whole transcript of a conversation between... Grant is a good guy. Yeah. I mean, he faked those documents, or he did spread them with the knowing of them being faked. Apparently there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker, where Kate Green was like, I want to know about the UFO secrets. And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, I can't tell. He was like, I know about this, but I can't tell you. And he got very paranoid. And then there's also, I'm sure you're familiar with Steinman, William Steinman. So William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker because he was in touch with Sarbacher. Sarbacher described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. and so he i believe he went to penn state steinman um him and uh scott was it scott crane i believe his other colleague and they tried to meet with eric walker and eric walker again was like you guys are chasing your tails you're like i think he called them actually there's a call between steinman and um eric walker and he said you're you know what do you know about the sixth sense, what do you know about Psy? And then he says, you know, nothing, I don't know anything, and goes, until you know about that, you don't know anything about this, and you're chasing, basically it's like Don Quixote. It's fascinating. So I was just thinking that, because this guy is... That is interesting, but not Henry. As Adel, yeah. He has too many problems. But you can't, if somebody is an intel agent, and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them, you can't always throw the baby out with the bathwater for sure you always have to take everything with a total grain of salt but you also can't discount everything they say there are people I think in the US now who are on the circuit who I'm pretty sure are like disinfo but that doesn't mean you should not talk to them and then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration I agree with that. For sure. But there are too many of them, so it's very hard to distinguish. There are a lot. I'm just saying with Henry Azedetto, maybe some stuff's true, some's fake. It could very well be like that. So, Klaus, you mentioned Adamski, which is a very interesting case around a guy who also might be kind of a con man or a snake oil salesman. Hard to say. Seems like he was caught in some lies. Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that. Right. But many of the pictures he took, you know, those motherships and scout ships, he was traveling, he said, with the aliens to the moon and other things. Do you think there is anything to any of his comments or statements? He was hanging out with some interesting people. You know, he's hanging out with George Van Tassel, right, who was, you know, Howard Hughes' contemporary. And so do you think there was anything to that case? It's rather complicated, but I don't think his pictures have been properly analyzed. I think they should be. There was one guy who did some analytic work on it that he don't want to share. Yeah. When I asked him, he don't want to share how he did it. Yeah. And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that Adamski wrote. Yeah. And I would love to see them. I know that Glenn Steckling has read them. Yeah. And I would love Glenn to share that, but we have not gotten that far. Yeah. So there are still some openings or closings. I'm not sure which one it is to the case. So I want to know more really about Adamski. So you haven't made up your mind. I've not made up my mind. I keep a slightly open door. But I think most of it are not as good as it should be. What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss. Oh, yeah. Billy Meyer don't trust. You think that he hoaxed the photos? I mean, the photos look too good to be true in many cases. But then also complicated where people say, you know, in the beginning he was attracting real stuff. And you get the same thing sometimes with Chris Bledsoe. It's always a story you know. In the beginning it was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't buy that. You don't buy it. And if I have loads of his pictures at home. Yeah. And some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see there are models standing on a table. That's not good. He used even pictures from books. Yeah. You know the time travel he made to the dinosaurs? Yeah, yeah. That was so strange. I have that book at home. I took a picture of a dinosaur in that book and said, oh, this is a picture I took when I traveled back in time. That's crazy. It's not. He says that in the book? Yeah. Okay. After this, it's hard to take him. Really? He says he took a photo of a dinosaur in the book and it's clearly a fake photo. Yeah, yeah. I have the book myself. I compare it. It's exactly the same picture. Jesus Christ. And you have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun in his hand or her hand. I don't know. So the alien is cut exactly there, so you can only see the arm. And this incredibly fake-looking gun, like from a toy store. I just had a guest on who said, this guy's name, Jason Reza Giorgiani. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that? Billy Meyer. Also not really his name. I mean, his name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style super spy field intelligence operative working primarily in the Middle East. Billy Meyer. Yeah. Until he had an accident in Turkey in a bus accident. His arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contactee phenomenon. I didn't know that. I dug up this and have documented it all in closer encounters. Whoa. So, Edward Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shah of Iran. In particular, he was very close to the king of Jordan. Billy Meyer. Billy Meyer. What? He had like British intelligence. The followers tend to love to make stories better. Yeah. Most of the time, he's just a crazy guy making up things to make himself a new Jesus, like Willem I really tried to do. That seems to be a thing. I mean, one of the best books, I think, in UFO research is Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception. Yeah. It's like you get all this cult creation around certain figures in UFOlogy. It's interesting because here in Sweden we have quite a few sorcerer cults where guys want to make themselves bigger than they are. Really? I've told stories that are quite far out and got followers, mostly women. Okay. Interesting. thing um what do you think i i feel like i need to ask you because you've probably seen more ufo photos than maybe anybody in the world yeah loads of them really what is your top ufo photo is there anyone i mean the thing about ufo photos is that they were better earlier yeah the 70s and when you call the guys who took the pictures in the 70s they tend to say okay i faked it really i did so with every single swedish 1970 photo and it's always young man not a single girl and when i called them 10 or 15 years later they said okay i admit I did it, it faked except one who still maintains his story and that picture looks so faked but he's a Christian he's a very firm believer in Jesus and lives a good life and I give him the chance every second year I call him again and say hi it's me you can admit that he faked it now and he won't admit it what's his name? oh it's a guy here in Sweden so I'm not sure Christus Sundström okay yeah and what can do you have the photo yeah i don't have it here but i can of course you can send it i can send it so you can have it in i'd love to see it absolutely is that the most visually appealing clear photo that you can't debunk it's incredibly clear i can fake it any minute if i want i did it yeah yeah i did it as well well that's the problem with all these photo oh you see you did fake it yeah i did a fake well you can fake any of these photos and then somewhat certain ones you can't also debunk and so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who seems really honest and like there's no incentive to fake it then you're stuck it's there's no way to fully prove it or disprove it the thing is that it's not the picture, it's a story. I mean, when you go to this guy and make an interview, and to make him show how he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards, then it falls apart. Really? So you think that it's fake because the story doesn't actually stay out of it? Yeah, the story, if you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture. But this very Christian guy, you think that that photo is fake? Yeah, I think it's fake. You think it's fake? Yeah. So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real? Yeah, I was trying to find out that most people should say the McMinnville picture, but of course I went to this conference in France a couple of years ago and this analyst showed us that you can clearly see there is a string if you make a data enhancement of it. Really? So I don't know anymore. Oh, no. McMinnville. Yeah. That's like a holy grail, you know. It's very hard to find a picture you can say that, wow, this is good. Wow. You have to look for the story. So is it safe to say there are no UFO photos that your very high conviction are real? Yeah. I have no photos that I'm, except the one I told you about with the radar return I saw myself. That picture is, of course, of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar, I know it was there. And, of course, he couldn't know it was a military radar. So you have, on that case, you have radar. Yeah. You have a photo. Yeah. Two witnesses. And you have two witnesses. That might be one of the best UFO cases ever. It's for real. Yeah. And that happened. And that's the one you're going to go digging for? No. It's around the same area. Around the same area. But not connected in any other way. Okay. It's many, many years between them. Wow. Yeah. Fascinating. Klaus, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field? I would have loved to understand that it's very scarce time you have to make interviews with people before they pass away. I miss so many. Who is top of the list? Lots of people from the ghost rocket era. investigators and witnesses that i oh in the 1980s when i started to pursue that uh they were gone many of them who's the number one person oh it was a policeman up in the very north of sweden who was very much uh doing research and met people all around north sweden and made interviews. I missed him. That's really, really sad. And I missed, of course, several of the witnesses around the lakes. It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case. Whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this like large scale and then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions and so you're, you know, very obviously rigorous and so appreciate your time, man. Thank you for having us. Thank you. time to fit into every video with weekly articles exploring all of the strange forgotten and conspiratorial corners of space history and high weirdness so join up today at our free or paid tiers on substack i am including the full link in the description of this video Thank you.