Would you tell your BFF about your credit card debt?

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Shame that keeps people quiet, makes them hide their balances and avoid conversations, which in some cases only makes the problem worse. This week, I'm talking with two best friends about what happened once they decided to confront their debt together. After keeping her debt a secret for years, Jamie Feldman told her best friend Rachel Webster she'd racked up an impressive amount of credit card debt. And that confession turned into a long series of honest conversations about money. And eventually they turned those conversations into a podcast called Debt Heads. Welcome to Debt Heads. Welcome. Debt Heads is an investigation into the American economy from the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves. Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt. To live in denial over debt. To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it. But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of debt heads. Jamie and Rachel first met more than seven years ago. Jamie was fresh out of college looking for work. And Rachel was looking for a part-time nanny to help with her two young kids. That childcare arrangement didn't last for too long. Jamie was only a nanny for one year. And then I was upgraded to aunt status after that. But the two hit it off right away and their friendship continued to grow over the years. You decided to move to our neighborhood and. Yeah, it was a totally coincidence. I didn't follow them. So yeah, so we live like a couple of blocks apart. And so I think from that just we just became super tight right away. They like to go on these long walks through Brooklyn running errands together and catching up. They kind of have a big sister little sister relationship. They share everything. We share an office. We share, you know, food, all the food. Yeah, so I did drinks. Yeah. But for a long time there was one thing they never really talked about. Something Jamie was keeping to herself until it came out one day during one of their long walks. I invited them to talk with me about it. We met up in New York in one of our studios. And I started by asking Jamie why she never talked about money with Rachel. To your point, we do tell each other everything. And the money thing was something that was so buried that I didn't even for a while think about it as something that I would share. It's not not even with her just with anyone with anyone. Yeah. And you know, now in hindsight, I can see like how deep the shame spiral was that it wasn't not even front of mind. Right. I never even associated that with like any of my other problems. It just was like the money stuff is a separate thing. You know. Okay. So then how much debt did you have at that point? I told people in the beginning that it was $15,000. And then I found out that I had this other credit card that I had completely forgotten about so that it was actually closer to like $20,000. Do you remember that moment when you decided to tell Rachel that you have all of this debt? What was going through your head? Yeah. So I had gotten laid off. I worked at the Huffington Post for like seven and a half years and I got laid off during COVID in 2021. And so, you know, it went from a situation where like I could keep it hidden and just sort of like scrape by paycheck to paycheck to I don't have any paychecks coming in. Okay. I was about to max out my credit card, which had never happened to me before till that point. That felt scary. Very scary. I was about to max it out and we were on a walk as we had been doing. And, you know, Rachel had a more frugal life than me for sure. And I don't think she had money problems at all really at that point. And did that intensify the feelings of anxiety that you had? Yeah, I was terrified. I mean, I definitely didn't want to tell her. I didn't want to tell anyone, but I had a breaking point and I was like, I really don't know what to do. And it sort of just blurted out and I was like, I need help. I cannot do this anymore and I'm pretty sure that's where I'm at. I need help. I cannot do this anymore and I'm pretending and it just sort of all fell apart from there. Yeah. And I think because I've always run a business, I mean, I had a regular job for like maybe three years of my life and then I've always had inconsistent income. So my relationship with debt is a lot more fluid. Like I'm like, this is, you have to go into debt to be a business owner. There's times where you're like, I'm not making any money and I don't know what's going to happen. But you get used to like, there's always money that comes eventually. So I had already had to learn the hard way that like budgeting, you need to kind of like know where the money is going. And so I'd already pitched that to Jamie like a, the year prior, like you should just really just start budgeting. So you know where the money is going. You know how much money you have coming in and going out. It's like real simple. How did you receive that when she would talk about that? Yeah. I think she thought I was doing it. Oh, okay. I'd said, Hey, this is what I do. You should just do this. Yeah. And so when you said, I don't have money coming in. I was like, well, what about the budgeting? And you were like, I never did it. So I was like, okay, I'm going to make you do it. Right. Because like I wasn't emotionally ready to do it until that moment either. And then I was extremely lucky that I had a person who not only helped me literally learn how to use this tool, but like emotionally like walked me through it, sat with me, held my hand, made it a little bit. It was terrifying. I mean, she was like, look at all your expenses for the past six months. And I was like, we're not friends anymore. You know, but no, that is a very vulnerable thing to do just by yourself to have to confront those finances and then to sit down with someone and have to. Oh my gosh. I was like, she was like, how many bathing suits did you buy? And I was like, I can't do this. I have to go. She was like, you're not going to this wedding. You have to call your, I had dinner plans that night. She made, she sat there while I canceled them. It was hard. It was really hard. But you all sat down that night and started going through it. We did it like it was literally like that's like an hour later. We like went instead of going home. It was like a Saturday. We went to my office and we sat down and I was like, let's just do this now because you're going to feel a lot better once you've seen it. And then you have some control over it. Yeah. You all actually recorded that moment. Here's some tape of it. You cannot go to this wedding. I have to go to this wedding. No, you don't. He already did. Did you book the tickets? No, she's not. You're going to call her. You're going to tell her what's going on and you're going to say, I can't come to your wedding. And I really hope that I can celebrate with you in another context at some other time. It doesn't require me to fly across the country by address, get a hotel and a car service and everything and a gift. So Rachel, you're being really direct with her here. But just to clarify, like I'm not a Dave Ramsey style, you know, in terms of my budgeting and I wasn't like, you know, you shouldn't have done that. Yeah, exactly. I was like, I saw on her face, I have to go to this dinner tonight. I have to go to this wedding. And I was like, you don't. Yeah. If those are things you want to do, like you can still make them happen even if you're in debt. Yeah. But you don't want to do them. So stop. And I think it was just like figuring out what your values were. And I think that that was like, you needed somebody to say, these are not my values and that's okay for me to say no to them just because it's a social obligation. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to when you're in your, I imagine you were in your twenties, early thirties. Yeah, I guess. And you just feel the pressure. Yeah, I was probably in my early thirties. I felt like that. You feel the pressure to say yes to everything. You don't want to disappoint anyone and you end up spending way more than you should. Forget it. I mean, I'm getting emotional even like hearing her talk about it because it's so true. It was like, what were the things that I was doing because I felt like I had to versus like, and that's true across the board. Like, what am I doing with my work? What am I doing with my friendships? What am I doing with my art? Like, I wasn't living in line with my values and, you know, I just, I feel really lucky to have a friend that was sitting next to me and helping me kind of make sense of that. Yeah. Okay. So then what steps did you take to tackle that debt? I imagine you might have some good tips for listeners. You know, knowing how much money I have coming in and coming out was the only way I was ever going to be able to pay any of it. And I actually did pay a large portion of it down when I had a lot more income coming in. And I was dedicating a very large portion of my budget to debt consolidation. I'm not doing that now. I'm trying to, I put as much as I can. I try not to do the minimum payment I try to pay before the end of the month because the, you know, the interest is accruing all month long. I've called to have my limit decreased so that I don't have as much access to credit. I've called to see if they'll lower my interest rate. I've called the ACCC, it's like 14 C. Yeah, yeah. That was, you know, I explored a debt consolidation program through them. I thought it was really, really helpful. I ended up not going that route because I didn't want to use it and then not be able to access it if I was in a more dire scenario. But I think it is a really good resource for people and I'm sorry that I don't have the exact name of it, but I know that there's an A and a lot of C's. I think it's called the American Consumer Credit Counseling ACCC. Right. I'm really curious about your emotional state up until that point because I think it's so relatable when you hit that breaking point. What did that look like for you? Like was it hard to focus? Were you not sleeping well? I think I was under the impression that I wasn't an anxious person. There were a couple of things that happened around that time that were sort of a big wake up call for me and I realized that I had just been living in total ignorance and totally dissociated. I was always like the girl that was saying yes to things. I was going out. I had this big gregarious personality. I was like the last one at the party. I mean, I'm still kind of probably the last one at the party, but I was fun. That was part of your identity. It was my identity. I was like the personality hire at my job. I was that girl. And I just quickly, I mean, over the course of like the next couple of months as we started budgeting and talking about money more openly and candidly, that completely changed my life. And I actually was able to start focusing more because I was way more present than I ever had been, but it was a lot more painful. Yeah. And it still is. It's still more painful, but it's also more rewarding. What part of it is painful? It's just facing everything. Facing things is really, really painful. Confronting money, confronting like those things that you're taught, confronting your beliefs that you think are yours, but actually maybe they're not yours. Maybe they're your parents and that's not who you are. But I also have never been more open and vulnerable and I have not had this much intimacy with like the people in my life that are really important to me. And like, you know, we are making this project. This is the first project I've ever made that I feel so passionately about, that I feel so proud to be a part of. That's like our thing. Because it's vulnerable. It's real. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, again, it is, it's both, it's, it's painful and it's also really beautiful and lovely. Okay. So you two were finally talking about this, figuring out Jamie's debt. And then Jamie, you decided to talk about your debt on social media. Why am I telling you this? In order for me to be held accountable, I'm going to need you to come with me on this journey. The goal that I've set for myself is getting out of my credit card debt. I'm starting with about $18,000 in credit card debt, which is so much. And I've never really told anyone that. So now we have a secret. And don't tell anyone or tell everybody either way. And yeah, I look forward. And also I don't look forward to doing this. So what ended up happening once you shared your debt with strangers online? In the beginning, when I started making content about being in debt, people were like, oh my God, you should totally make a podcast. And I was like, about what? Like I, what am I going to tell people how to be, how to do personal finance? And Rachel was like, there's a bigger, much bigger story here. And that was like the genesis of the, you know, the seedling that became debt heads. Yeah. I mean, I think so many people when they think about money or they think about finances, they think about like, how are you? How are you going to make money in the stock market? And that's just, we're never going to care about that ever. But also like they're, you know, the economy underlies literally everything in our lives. And we want to talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. And I also love the points that you're making earlier about how confronting your finances made you confront all these other parts of yourself. And also like, I want to talk more about the shame piece of it. You know, you're not in a great mental health space, but then also you feel a lot of shame. How can you talk about how that kept you? The shame, the shame loop. The shame spiral. Yeah. Yeah. You know, at first I think I probably didn't even realize that it was shame. I probably was just like, this is the secret. And, you know, I remember I put it on Facebook and I was so nervous. I was just like, people are going to come for me. I mean, I worked on the internet for seven and a half years. I was not, you know, a stranger to trolls and people having things to say. But for some reason I was like, this is the one thing I can't. I've written about everything, you know, I've read about sex. You've shared so many parts of your life. I've read about family. I've read about grief. You know, I've read about weight, a body image. Like I'd never, ever wrote about my money. But actually people were so quick to respond in a way that I wasn't expecting. Does that make sense? Like, first Rachel, you know, I was so afraid I was like embarrassed. I was really embarrassed. And then I told her and immediately she was like, okay, let's bring into action. Not like, you're the worst person I've ever met. And you tricked me into being friends with you. I thought you were more responsible. How dare you, you know, and then my mom's, one of my mom's friends was the first person to reach out when I had like posted the Facebook, you know, whatever. So, yeah, the shame obviously kept me quiet. It keeps people quiet. As soon as you confronted and like push it away, you realize it's not actually that powerful. Right. And even now, even after we've been publishing this stuff for, you know, over a year, we still got trolls that are out there just being like, what a bunch of losers. You guys are so bad. You know, this is bad, bad, bad. And it's that, you know, deep moral sort of failing that's built into our like history of this country. That's puritanical. Yeah. But once you like start talking about it and it loses its power. Yeah. And it loses its power over you. You don't see it as part of your identity in the way that you may have before. Absolutely. You said that, you know, you had to confront all of these beliefs from your family, from your society, from, you know, the community that you grew up in. Did either of y'all learn that much about debt or financial literacy? Not at all. Yeah. You know, my parents are like, you know, kind of writers and my mom was like in theater and, you know, they didn't overspend, but they didn't know anything about money. Yeah. They didn't know what investments were. I mean, they come from a different era when people were sort of taken care of by their employers. When the state was, you know, giving people, you know, there's a bigger safety net. So they didn't have to be really good with money. I would say my parents weren't bad with money, but they weren't good with money. So I don't know anything about, you know, I'm not a math person, I'm an artist, I'm a writer. And frankly, I don't think that we should have to be good with money to be safe. I don't think that that's something that we have to do. Just everyone should be able to like have some sense of safety, economic safety. Without being a math whiz or without like knowing how to like play the marketplace. Like I just personally don't think that that's necessary. But anyway, to answer your question, yeah, I think Jamie was pretty ignorant. I was pretty ignorant. Yeah. How about you, Jamie? Did your family talk about money at all? No. Not at all. I mean, there were always money problems always. And that's the extent of my knowledge of what my knowledge was when I was a child. So yeah, I mean, I was afraid for my mom to find out I was in debt because I had no idea what her relationship to finances were. Right? Like, and I really didn't know until we sat down with her and talked about it. Here's actually a snippet of that moment from your show. Okay. What was your reaction when you saw the first thing that you saw I posted about my money situation? What was your reaction? I kind of like, I kind of saw myself. I didn't panic because I didn't think that it would be a big deal. You were independent. You were, didn't have anyone to support. You were, you know, you were living your life. That's what I did in my twenties. I mean, every penny that I made, I bought clothes, every penny, whatever I had, whatever I made, I never saved anything. I always spent it always. So what did you take away from that conversation with her? You know, I grew up in a really tumultuous household and I always associated the chaos with the money and lack thereof and needing money and not having money. And how are we going to afford this? And what are we going to do? And in reality, it was like a symptom of a much bigger problem, which, you know, we discussed in the pilot episode, like that's sort of the root of everything is the upbringing. Yeah. I loved a lot of the points y'all made in the first episode of your podcast about how it doesn't come down to willpower and self-control. And we really need to look at like the conditions we're operating in. And I think so much of this idea that money is related to our upbringing and our feeling of safety is not personal. That is structural. We have set up in our society that your safety is tied to your financial well-being and that we've put that on the individual increasingly over the last, you know... Our lifetime. Yeah. Certainly our lifetime. And, you know, so that's not unique to us, even though we do have unique stories that are tied to our relationship with money. It does, but it's part of our culture. Totally. I'm curious, Rachel, from your perspective, how did Jamie telling you about her debt change your relationship with her? I don't know. You know, honestly, I don't know if it did. I've always, you know, I'm older than she is. I've always been, you know, a little bit more like the older sister in the situation kind of guiding her. But since then, we've joined this as equals, you know, I'm not the older sister as it comes when it comes to writing the podcast together. We do it equally. You know, having that partnership has been really wonderful. And it's allowed both of us to transform for the better. Just looking at the shadows in your life, the things that scare you the most are, it can be the most empowering thing that you go through. Yeah. And like make your friendship closer. Like I think, you know, we both feel really safe with each other. And I think like I probably didn't feel that safe with anyone for a long time. So, you know, having all of these things out in the open is like there's no really nothing's off limits now. That's really beautiful. Yeah. How has working together changed your financial situation? If at all? Well, we've had to invest in doing this and taking the time. It costs money. It costs money. It costs time. It's mostly our time, you know, it's just like we, you know. We work every weekend. We work nights. It's nights and weekends. It's exhausting. We are hoping that, you know, it won't be that way forever, but also we have never wanted to tie this to being a financially lucrative endeavor. Absolutely. Yeah. I won't speak for you, but I'm just certainly in more debt than I was when I started making debt content. Oh, I am. I am, but that is understood. That's the economy too. That's not this project necessarily, you know. Yeah. Wait, that's real. So how much debt do you have today? The last time I checked it was like more like closer to $26,000 right now. How do you feel about that? I don't really care. I care. I don't want to be in $26,000 of credit card debt, but it doesn't have a chokehold on me the way it did. I think this is the cost of living, unfortunately. I live in an expensive city where my whole family and my whole life is. You live in New York City to be fair. I live in New York City. I have lived here my whole life. I'm not moving away from my 94-year-old grandmother and my mom. It's just not an option in my world and my job and my friends. You know, there's definitely some anxiety around that number. It's a really big number, but also having talked about this for two years and knowing how much debt there is. I mean, what is the United States in like $1 trillion of debt? Yeah, I think it's like actually $38 trillion, which is wild. $26,000 is not really anything compared to that. Well, I think that you're kind of embracing what I've always had to embrace, which is that it costs money to do these things and you're taking a risk on yourself. This isn't like you blindly spending money that you don't have and not talking about it. You're not really going, okay, this is a choice I'm making to make this project. That's such a good point. So to be clear, you're incurring debt from this project? From not going out and getting like a big full-time job that you know. Making the choice, making the sacrifice to not do the comfortable thing. That's a really interesting reframe because you're saying, I have more debt, but I'm okay with that because it's more aligned with what's important to me and how I live my life. It's in service of my values. Yeah. That's a good point. I was just spending money on dinners. Now I know what I'm spending money on. It's like trying to live and also make something that we're proud of. Yeah. Okay. So if someone is listening to this and thinking, okay, maybe I should tell someone about my debt, what advice would you give them? I'll start with you, Rachel. Absolutely. Tell somebody about your debt. Be honest about whether or not you're making enough money at work or because you feel compelled to spend too much because that's what society tells us to do. If it's any number of things where it's really just a representation of things being out of balance, it's really important to talk to people. I mean, our tagline of our show is that you are not alone. We are not alone. The most important thing is to realize that you're in connection with other people and then find the empowerment that you can in that and those relationships and redefine the terms for yourself. What she said. I mean, that's true. I totally feel that way. I mean, it's easier said than done. Obviously, I didn't do it for many years, but I will say on the other side of it, my whole life has changed. Everything about my life is different than it was before I started talking to Rachel and to the entire Internet about money. Yeah. And it's better. Okay. We're going to take a quick break and then when we come back, I want to ask you both some uncomfortable money questions. Yay. We love those. By the way, does Jamie's experience resonate with you at all? If so, I would love to hear about it. Let me know a financial fear you've carried, whether it's debt or something else and what you did about it. Call or hotline and leave a message at 347-RING-TIU. That's 347-746-4848. Welcome back to This is Uncomfortable. I'm Rimech Reis. Before we jump back into things, I just wanted to remind you to check out our new Instagram and TikTok accounts. You can follow us at This is Uncomfortable Pod. All right. Back to my conversation with Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster, co-host of the podcast Debt Heads. Okay. Rachel and Jamie, it is time for one of my favorite segments that we call Uncomfortable Questions. Yay. Are you ready? Yes. Okay. What is your current credit card balance? I just paid a big chunk off because I got paid by a big job. Okay, show off. But it was bad. It was really bad. At least $35,000 on one of my cards, the worst of my life this last year. I think mine is $26,000. If you had to cut $100 from your budget today, what would you eliminate? Probably spend too much on food. Don't we all? Jamie and I love grocery shopping. We love grocery shopping. So it's like our cheat treat. We're like, we can't afford Newster Forest stuff, but we'll go crazy at the grocery store and it's stupid. But that's like, we love food. And also you have family of four, including two teenagers. The food always gets eaten. I'm always shocked at how much food she has and how much it goes. I'm sure. Two teenagers. And also, they feed me. I'm like a fifth person sitting in their house. $100 out of my budget. Probably all the subscriptions that I don't realize are getting taken out of my account every month. Stay tuned for that episode. Oh yeah. That's a spoiler. I know. Every month I tell myself I'm going to sit down and get rid of the subscriptions that I'm not using. Nobody does. Yeah. Autopay it is. The 99 cent charge that I get, that I don't know what it is every couple of days. How is that? And it just says Apple or something like that. I'm like, what is that? 99 cents. And Google, I'm like, I don't think I have to buy more Google space. But I do. One day I'll investigate. A lot of pictures of my cats. What was the last thing one of you Venmo'd the other for? We Venmo like sort of, what's the word of looking for? Aggressively, not aggressively. We do aggressive Venmoing. We like fight each other over Venmo. Yeah. Don't you give me money for that and then advice first. The only time we ever Venmo each other is if I'm like, there you go, you get $100. I'm just like, don't. I don't want it. Because I'm just like, don't even believe it like that. I know. Yeah. We pretty much are just like, we're just going to balance this out until we die. Jamie got us Robin tickets. That's the last thing for me. Jamie got us Robin tickets for Nears and I Venmo'd her. Aggressively Venmo'd me. Yeah. Have you ever gotten to the point of like blocking one, like each other on Venmo? I won't accept it. I won't accept it sometimes. Have you all ever gotten to fight about money, I guess beyond that? I know. No? Okay. That would be so funny for you. Actually. No. No. What was your most recent impulse purchase? God, I can't think of that. Probably the Stratkite. Yeah. Yeah. That was like a treat. We were at a vintage store on a different mission and I saw it and it was the summer and I was like, I really want the Stratkite. I bought it. I really don't buy stuff. That's another way. I was really cheated. I bought myself a red lipstick. Nice. How much was that? $25. Yeah. How much was the Stratkite? I think it was like $150. Yeah. We go to the wine store for like a bottle of wine and we end up with like four. How did this happen? Always more than one bottle. What's an expense you'll always say yes to no matter how tight things get? Do you know mine? Should I say mine? I got a lot of trouble in the beginning of our content journey for getting my nails done. Oh, duh. I wouldn't stop getting my nails done. What do you mean got in trouble? Like on the internet. People were going after you. Yeah. They were dragging her for the quality of her nails. These aren't even good. I was like, okay, wow. I think they're good. I've since changed the kind of manicure I get that's less expensive. How much is it? It's like $60 every month. Yeah. Which, you know, come on. I need like something. Maybe things are expensive. Yeah. I'm always willing to cut things, but I'm never willing to sacrifice an experience that it would potentially be life changing. That is not something I will ever sacrifice. We only get one chance though. Exactly. We could blame my grandmother for instilling in me that you have to have your nails done all the time. I mean, it does feel good. Yeah. I get it. Jamie and Rachel, this was so much fun. Thanks so much for coming on and chatting. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. We love chatting. You can find Rachel and Jamie's show, Debt Heads, wherever you get your podcasts. They have new episodes starting June 25th. In one last disclaimer, we're not here to give specific financial advice. I know Jamie shared some of her own strategies for tackling debt. Really appreciate that transparency, but what works for her might not be right for you. So always do your own research. Before we go, we recently asked you all about your debt stories and we got this message from a listener named Daniela. I currently have $32,000 in credit card debt. This all stems from a poor financial education from my immigrant parents. They always needed help covering the bills ever since I could remember. And then it was needing to supplement a student loan. And then it was a shopping addiction that I have now been heavily working on. I've recently gotten a new job and I'm working towards funneling the extra salary increase into the debt. It's very hard to not have a strong financial education and to just go off into the world with credit cards that a company just allows you to have without explaining the risks. Yeah. Thank you for listening. Thanks for calling in Daniela. I appreciate that vulnerability. It sounds like you're doing what you can. And I totally hear you on it being hard knowing what to do when it's not something you were ever taught. I've definitely felt like that myself. It's actually one of the reasons why I started the show. By the way, we have some advice episodes we're working on and I would love to get your questions. Let me know, is there a tricky money issue affecting one of your relationships or a problem at work you're trying to navigate? Let us know your money and work dilemmas and we'll try our best to answer them on the show. Call or hotline and leave a message at 347-RING-TIU. That's 347-746-4848. Or you can email us at uncomfortableatmarketplace.org. And if you're not already following our new social media accounts, check us out at This Is Uncomfortable pod on Instagram and on TikTok. This episode was produced by our senior producers Zoe Saunders and our producer Alice Wilder. And I'm your host, Rima Kres. Additional production support from Iyun Chen, our intern, audio engineering by Drew Jostad. Bridget Bodner is Marketplace's director of podcasts. Marketplace's chief content officer is Joanne Griffith. Neil Scarborough is vice president and general manager of Marketplace. And our theme music is by Wonderly. Alright, I'll catch y'all next week.