Lugora is the fastest growing enterprise company in history. What's allowed Lugora to scale so fast? Lugora is a truly special company. We have been able to grow from one to $100 million in 18 months, setting a record in terms of execution. There are two billion people around the world that have experimented with AI. But more importantly, there are over 600 million people on a daily basis that use AI in their workflows, in their workforce, at home. If you think about the enterprise, over $100 billion exist in the enterprise TAM. And so Lugora focused right here. There's this whole argument about horizontal versus vertical AI. Who's gonna win and what verticals? Why is Lugora gonna beat the horizontal players? The legal software space is a $40 billion opportunity. And it is incredibly siloed. You have document management systems, you have case law, you have the management of work, you have business law. And what Lugora is doing is providing a centralized operating system for legal services. Great, that's Act One. But that's a $40 billion TAM. If you think more broadly though, legal services is a trillion dollar TAM. And what we're really doing is helping lawyers do their work more efficiently. Whether it's big law, so the AM200 or it's corporate law, we are helping them complete their tasks with automation, with expertise. And so we're turning that associate from the person who is drafting that documentation into the first reviewer. And that's that $1 trillion TAM that we're going after. One of the, I think, under appreciated aspects of Lugora and the legal TAM is the expansion of the TAM. We saw this famously with Uber. Uber was going out with slide decks, talking about if they could get 20, 30% of the taxi market. That'd be a huge business. They ended up being 10 times the size of the entire taxi market. They expanded the TAM. Why? Because before you would only take taxis to go to the airport or for very specific cases. Now when the cost went down, you would take it to visit your friends, you would take it to the restaurant. Do you expect the legal TAM to expand if the cost of legal goes down? There is no question that if the bar to engage with a lawyer or do engage with legal services or lower, you would ask more questions. How many times have you come up with a patent idea that you wanted to explore or run a patent check or submit to the patent office? When faced with the concept that it's going to cost you $10,000, you back away and you no longer pursue that patent idea. Or unfortunately, you were wronged in some way and you know that you could probably sue someone for the injustice that you were incurred. If you lower that bar to engage with legal services, that entire pie will expand. And so I believe with Lugora, the entire legal sector will expand way beyond the trillion dollars that exist today. And then on top of that, Lugora again, the first inning is legal services. But there's a much broader opportunity outside of that. Our goal is to expand to all professional services. And there's natural adjacencies and audit tax risk compliance that's there for the taking. What keeps somebody from an open AI or anthropic from doing this? Open AI and anthropic are great partners of ours. We work extremely closely with them. We leverage both of their models. And every month or two, when they release a new model and the ground shakes beneath us, our solutions get better with those models. Now there is the work that's actually getting done, which depends on these engines. But then there's the rest of the chassis around the car that's really necessary to get from A to B. We're really focused on the management of work. How do you draft a case? How do you research a case? It is an incredibly complicated process. And so it's not a simple chat GPT prompt or a simple Claude request. And that was something that came up a lot during our series D process, something that our investors at Excel who are really close to the anthropic team researched quite thoroughly. And at the end of the day, we came out on top. And we're really grateful for our partnership with the anthropic and we feel really good about the fact that we are the cutting edge leading platform. Expert calls have always been one of the most powerful ways to build conviction, but today investors are asked to cover more companies, move faster and do it with leaner teams. With AlphaSense AI led expert calls, their Tejas call service team sources experts based on your research criteria and lets the AI interviewer get to work. The magic is in the AI interviewer, purpose built and knowledgeable based information to conduct high quality context stretch conversations on your behalf, acting as a trusted extension of your team. Then they take it one step further. 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All of it lives inside the AlphaSense platform, trusted by 75% of the world's top hedge funds alongside filings, broker research, news and more than 240,000 expert call transcripts, turning raw conversations into comparable, auditable insight. Take advantage of AlphaSense AI led expert calls now. The first to see wins, the rest follow. Learn more at alpha-sense.com slash how I invest. This is a good time, full disclosure. I'm an investor in Anthropica, I'm an investor in Lagora. Thank you so much. You got to win both ways. Thank you so much for having me. I think one of the maybe underappreciated aspects as companies get big, this is a Peter Thielism. When Google was small, they wanted to pretend like they were a huge company. When they were a huge company, they were worried about being seen as monopoly. So they built all these different verticals even though none of them actually contributed revenue. So a lot of times when these companies turned into these trillion dollar behemoths, they want to have competition in certain verticals so that they can substantiate this case to the Department of Justice and that they're not truly a monopoly. So there is the synergistic aspect there. Absolutely, and we have a number of different partnership fronts with Anthropic, whether it's co-development, whether it's leveraging their models, whether it's evals. There's a lot of joint opportunity that we can work on together. And it's because of that close partnership that our customers benefit. So I'm sure you get this question 100 times a day, Harvey versus Ligora. Why is Ligora a better company? We enjoy competition. Competition is what makes any company better. We weren't the first to the space which drives a lot of humility. The space was established before we got there and it forced us to make a lot of hard choices. When you start a company in Sweden, the entire Swedish market is smaller than the top line of Kirkland. And that means that you have to make a lot of calculated decisions about what you build, who you partner with, who you hire. And as a result, we have operated expeditiously and efficiently to become one of the fastest growing software companies in history. And having competition means that we need to out-innovate the rest of the space. And the results speak for themselves. We have an incredibly high win rate. We have grown at a clip that no other software company has seen. But at the end of the day, I was a swimmer in high school and I was a competitive swimmer. And what our coach always told us is when you're finishing a race, you don't look to the left lane, you don't look to the right lane, you just focus on the wall in front of you. Because if you look in either direction, you break your stroke. And when you break your stroke, you slow down. And that 0.1 millisecond that you end up slowing down might mean the difference between winning and losing that race. And so that's something that we teach all of our lagoons, is just focus on finishing that race as hard as you can in hitting that wall. And that's what I say about competition. I've observed this in the very top, the top 1% of founders. They love competition. If there's no competition, they invent it. Maybe you could distill why exactly competition is so good for a company. Competition is a forcing function. Because you want to win your customers trust. And without competition, you are not constantly earning the right to get that customer's renewal or earn that customer's initial check. And they don't have another option. But I can't think of a single industry where there's one vendor and there's no other option. Every single industry has multiple options because there's a large market out there. Now, the question that we have to ask ourselves is, is this a winner-take-all market or is this a winner-take-most market? And we wake up every day with this concept called Blutsmack, which is the Swedish term, which is you wake up with the metallic taste of blood in your mouth. And we like to live with that concept because we believe in intensity. We want to work as if there is no second place. There's only first place. We started after the market was created. And we not only want to catch up, we want to surpass the rest of the market. And that means we have to out-innovate. We have to out-think. We have to stay close to our customers. We have to operate with a deep sense of humility. And because of that, we have done an incredible job over the last two years. I never thought about it from the point of the customer. In a industry like legal, they may not want to adopt. So if there's one CEO going around from Ligora telling people about the future of legal tech, they may kind of put it to the side. Now there's two. Now you have to make a decision. So it kind of forces this decision to make a decision on the company. And then internally, I recently listened to an interview with an early Tesla engineer. And he was begging Elon, let's raise more money. Let's put some more money on a balance sheet. And Elon had offers and he's like, no, I'm starving the company on the balance sheet because I need you to be focused. There's something so focusing about competition. And although I don't think you need competition maybe at all levels of management in order to really have that drive, if you want it to permeate their entire culture, I think competition could be extremely useful. It's on the CFO. You know, I get to make the capital decisions for the business and you can raise money and you can spend that money. Or you can raise money and have intentionality. We just raised our $650 million series D round at $1.2 billion of interest and that $550 million could easily have been more. But that doesn't mean we're gonna spend it. We have metrics that we follow that means that we're gonna continue to invest in things that yield the highest ROI. We have marketing ROI metrics that we have to hit. We have payback periods that we have to hit. We have cash burn ratios that we have to hit. And we don't lower those standards just because we have more money in the bank. For us, it actually raises the bar in terms of expectations because we now have more options that we can play. We can invest in the US market. We can invest in the UK, the European market, the Australian market, the Singaporean market. And we can just play on more fronts now. And so as we scale this year from 300 headcount to 900 headcount, those are the most important investments to make. We have to invest in our talent today. The greatest asset we have are our lagoons. We don't have hardware. We don't have physical locations. We have IP that is created by our employees. And so when I think about investing, I think about hiring the greatest people on the planet, the people who have seen success before and they can bring those best practices to our organization. So as we chart the next two years, which I think are the most critical for the legal AI sector, we can run fast, no U-turns, and execute near flawlessly. Much has been said about the Ligora special culture, so much so benchmark all day. One of the most special cultures, and this was an early investor in some of the greatest companies in the last couple of generations. What makes Ligora's culture so special? And how did the... If you've been considering future straightings, now might be the time to take a closer look. The futures markets has seen increased activity recently and plus 500 futures offers a straightforward entry point. 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This came up a lot during the series D-Round that someone had done a reference check, and said that Max is intense, and it's good intense. Well, we are intense because we have a deep sense of humility. We started out as outsiders. We're not lawyers. Max isn't a lawyer. Max is our CEO. He wasn't a lawyer. He started out as an outsider with a deep passion to solve a problem in an industry that hasn't had a lot of change in decades or hundreds of years. And so we work hard and we're clear about that during the interview process. We go to the office five days a week. We show up every single day and we stay late. And we don't stay late because the senior person's in the office and then as soon as that senior person leaves, everyone else trickles out. We stay in the office whether the senior person is or is not in the office because there's a sense of camaraderie and community to what we do. We share ideas whether in sales, legal engineering, engineering, we like working together. And the culture is super positive. The vibes are super high. We have very low attrition rates amongst the company. I've worked at five companies now that have scaled to over 100 million ARR. And I will say I'm having the time of my life at LaGora. Tell me about the story about how you moved out to Silicon Valley. So I've always been very entrepreneurial. I tried to start a number of companies when I was in college at Washington University in St. Louis. I ended up graduating in three years, getting my master's in finance, going down a path towards investment banking. And I ended up graduating going to Barclays in New York. I did that for a number of years, but I felt despite being a great technical butt kicking, somewhat monotonous. And it wasn't as fulfilling as I wanted it to be. And I had a desire to combine my love of entrepreneurism with investment banking. And the perfect blend of the two to me at the time was venture capital. And so I thought, great, I want to be a venture capitalist. And so I first tried to find a way into venture capital, but back then it was super hard. It was, who do you know? And one position would open up every three or four years at a firm, and basically the door would open up for a second, and then it would close just as fast. Being an analyst in New York City very far away from Silicon Valley, my chances of finding a job there were very slim. But what happened was I developed the thesis. One of the companies that I tried to create when I was at Wash U in St. Louis was a cloud storage company where you could upload your music to the cloud and then downstream a 10-day web enabled device. And so I developed a thesis about the cloud in general. And there were three companies that caught my eye. Box, Dropbox, and Atlassian. I applied to all three. And I was very fortunate that I ended up getting a job at Box and made it to the final rounds, got the job, coincidentally the same week as my girlfriend, now wife, got a job at Twitter. And we both went back into work and we quit, and we moved to Silicon Valley a few weeks later. A lot of has been written about this 996 culture. I did three months at Jeffery's investment banking. Banking has a crazy culture. How would you compare these two cultures? It's really interesting that you say that. I don't notice the 996. I don't think about the 996. But if I were to add up the hours, but the hours are my hours. I choose when those hours occur and they're on my terms. And a lot of those hours are on my couch or in my bed or on my own terms. And it's very different than when I was a banker at Barclays wearing a suit and tie, sitting at an office till eight, nine, 10 p.m. at night typing away on a keyboard. And so I actually find it incredibly fulfilling because I dictate when those hours occur and the timeline of when the work gets done. So it's a very enjoyable 996 to me. It's flow. When you're doing something you love it and you're doing it in a team, there's something special about working hard and long hours with a team versus siloed towards a mission. It's what people talk about working in SpaceX. They don't look at it as working 78 hours a week. They're looking at it, they're on a mission and they're there to complete the mission. Sam Altman quote, like the days are long but the decades are short. I don't think about the days, the weeks fly by, but yes, the days are incredibly long. There are many days that I'm at the office till 10 o'clock at night and I have three amazing kids and an amazing, amazing wife and they're all supporting me. And they love what we do and they love the company. And you know, Max, my amazing CEO will often write emails to my wife and I'll say, you know, thank you so much, Ellen, for lending David to me on this trip to California. You know, we did an amazing job doing X, Y and Z. And that's awesome. The fact that my CEO and my wife are emailing together and it's a great partnership. It's very European of him to even consider your wife and her feelings. You mentioned Sam Altman, his CFO, Sarah Fryer is this legendary CFO. And the role of CFO has really evolved over the last, I'd say 20 years in Silicon Valley. Used to be literally you would just take a CFO and the public company put them into startup for quote unquote adult supervision. Now it's much more of an entrepreneurial role. Tell me about the role of CFO today in both Ligore and also what is the best practice for Silicon Valley CFO? We like to call it CFO because the goal is to remove friction. The goal is to help quantify the qualitative and solve problems. It is not purely an FPNA role. It is not a finance, a budgeting role. It is a goal to remove barriers. And my day job is not predictable. And I think this is also emblematic of the fact that I'm an AI CFO. There are very few AI CFOs. So Sarah Fryer is obviously one of them at OpenAI. There are a few other companies like Runway ML, Crucso, Abridge, but we're kind of in the first class of AI CFOs. And the problems that we're working on are problems that really haven't been worked on before. So how do you make the switch from C-based pricing to consumption-based pricing? How do you walk up your gross margin? Because a lot of these companies depend on anthropic or open AI. How do you think about token utilization? How do you think about switching models between the major LLMs? There's a whole host of problems that don't necessarily have answers. And my job and my team's job is to solve them. And I would also say that the CFO's job has enlarged to be a PM's job very recently. I get involved in all the pricing decisions for the company. I have to solve for the gross margin for every deal on a deal-by-deal basis. That used to be a PM's job, but is now a great part of the finance job. It's tying a critical part of the income statement directly to my day job. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Have you got to create new metrics, new frameworks? Oh, absolutely. Like we look at the DAO, the WOW. We look at the gross margin on a customer basis. The level of fidelity we have on our users is unparalleled to anything I've ever seen before. When in all of my prior SaaS roles, we would just bulk look at our business and we have to look everything on a micro level. We look at our token utilization on an hourly basis. Because if we switch models from one model to another, it could drive up our costs $100,000. And so each decision is critical. When we decide to switch LLMs from one to another for document editing, that could be a $100,000 decision. And so the relationship between CFO and CTO has to be incredibly close. Before, one of the most important relationships is CFO and CRO. That's still super important. But I would say the CFO relationship now stands to all the different C-level executives. And I'm doing daily check-ins with all the C-levels. You're also, I think the first CFO I've ever met that has their own fund. Tell me about your fund. Throughout my career, I've had people who have believed in me and put me forward for opportunities. And in 2015, my CEO at the time, David Yulovic, recommended me for a program called Sequoia Scouts. David Yulovic was the CEO of OpenDNS. Today, he's a general partner at Andreessen Horowitz, running the American Dynamism Fund. And he is one of my best friends. But back then, he was very busy running OpenDNS. That year, OpenDNS ended up selling to Cisco. So he had a lot on his plate. But he was one of the original Sequoia Scouts. Back when Sequoia Scouts was a secret program, that there was an article written about it in the New York Times. And I was fascinated by this program. I thought it was amazing that Sequoia was arming their top CEOs with this war chest that they could write $25,000, $50,000 checks into promising startups. And because David was so busy, I would bring David different ideas for companies that he could invest in. I was a 25, 26-year-old person in Silicon Valley. And so some of my friends were starting companies. Plus, my wife at the time was going to HBS and a number of her classmates were starting companies. And so I'd bring them different ideas. Actually, a company yesterday, Shield AI, announced their $12 billion valuation, they're new with $2 billion fund raise. That's a company that I invested in for David Yulvetch when he was a Sequoia Scout. And so it's funny to mark Obama a lot. A lot. I'm happy for everyone involved. And so he put me forward for the program. He actually wrote a very funny letter to Sequoia and said, David has been helping me with Sequoia Scout. So I'd write up all of his memos for him and he would submit it and he would get approval and he would make these investments. He's like, David's been helping me with all of my Sequoia Scout investments for the last six months. Either you make him a Sequoia Scout or I quit. And then you can make him a Sequoia Scout with my spot. And to me, this was my dream. Like when I would run on the treadmill and envision whatever my goal was, it was to become a Sequoia Scout. I wanted to be a Sequoia Scout more than anything. And here he was. David Yulvetch was advancing this opportunity for me. And Sequoia, I remember, wrote back and said, no, no, no, don't do that, don't do that, don't quit being a Sequoia Scout, we'll meet him. And so I got to meet Rulof, who is amazing, just such an inspiration, such a leader. And I sat down with him for an hour. And besides being the smartest human I've ever met, at the end of the conversation, he said, okay, you're in, you're a Sequoia Scout. And then over the next five, six years, I made about 70 investments. And so that allowed me to invest in SEED and Series A companies. But what I realized is a lot of my CFO peers were Series B, Series C, and Series D CFOs, including my old CFO, Bert Podbear, who is the CFO of Crowdstrike, my old CFO or co-worker, Jenny Saran, who became the CFO of Smartsheet, my friend, Adriel Larez, who was the CFO of Fastly. And I had all these opportunities to possibly invest in my friends. I believe in my friends, so I want to invest behind them. And so I decided to raise a fund on the side to invest in these great operators that I had gotten to know in Silicon Valley. And so I set out during COVID, because I had all this free time, because I wasn't committing down to Palo Alto every day. And I raised an $8 million series, BC and D fund. And so that expanded my spectrum to invest in SEED, Series A, and now I can invest in BC and D. And so I had that full spectrum to invest in. And during COVID, I finished investing in that BC and D fund. If you think about VCs as the customer, although in this case, Legora is the customer of VCs, they're the salespeople in this round. But typically you have VCs being the customer. What better way to understand the customer than to be one, to be in the VCs spot? If you could go back, you were at Barclays, you decided to jump on a plane, moved to San Francisco, took a big career rest. If you could give yourself one piece of timeless advice for a younger David at that time, what would that one piece of advice be? I'd warn myself the risk of staying put. So there is a Japanese word that my father-in-law once taught me, is nuru mayu. Nuru mayu means stay in the bathtub too long. And it's a beautiful word. If you stay in the bathtub too long, you get very pruney. And I think in life, I've tried to push myself out of my comfort zone. Being at Barclays, quitting like a very established job, leaving New York, which has been my home since birth, traveling across the country, I pushed myself out of my comfort zone. I got my master's at the London School of Economics. I pushed myself out of my comfort zone. But there are tons of times that I stayed too long, whether it was in a job or in a partnership with a tech vendor. And I need to constantly think about how is the market changing? What is my role in the market? And more recently, I'm very happy I'm at Ligora. The world is changing around us. And Ligora is incredibly positioned for this new AI landscape. And when I think about Nuru Mayu and the risk of staying put, I think about how time is condensed. And what we used to accomplish in a year is now being accomplished in a quarter. And so what I want to bring to Ligora is that concept of, don't wait for tomorrow, let's do it today. Well, thank you, David. Thank you, New York Stock Exchange, the Cube, NYC-Wired. And looking forward to having this conversation in a year and seeing where you guys are at. Thank you for having me. If you found this conversation valuable, please click follow how I invest so that you don't miss the next episode with the world's top investors.
