Aaron Sorkin: Well There You Have It (Re-Release)

Aaron. How you doing, Rob? It's Robby Lowe. How are you? Good. It's good to talk to you. I'm so excited. Welcome to the podcast. The great Aaron Sorkin is my guest. You know, in a career, there are certain people who are so important to you, both as an actor, artist, whatever you are, and just as a person. And Aaron is one of those people for me. Aaron changed my life, changed my career. And I remember the very first time I was ever aware of him. I read a screenplay called Malice. I wanted to play the part because the dialogue was so insanely good. Of course, the part went to Alec Baldwin, but I never forgot the name Aaron Sorkin. And then one day, my agent, I told them I might want to do television. It was back in the days when you just did not do television. Of course, it was a lesser industry. And they sent me a script called The West Wing. And I thought it was an offshoot of Pensacola wings of gold. I thought it might be about a fighter jet squadron. It wasn't. And I opened the page up and saw The West Wing written by Aaron Sorkin. And I knew what I was in for. And on the first page was vintage Aaron Sorkin and a character named Sam Seaborn. I don't think we're going to run the table. That's for sure. It's not. Deep background. I'm not going to come close to using your name. You're not going to come close to getting a quote either. Why are we sitting here? You sat down. Is Josh on his way out? No. Is he? No. I know he's your friend. He is. Did Caldwell say? I'm not talking about this. Who do I call? No one. Just tell me who to call. Or you could call 1-800-BITE-ME. Sam? We've just reunited to do the long anticipated much talked about, much questioned West Wing reunion, which it took a very good cause when we vote, the bipartisan effort to get everybody out to do their constitutional duty. That seemed like a good excuse to put all the people back on the field and see if we still knew how to play the music. And I think we did well. And I think you're going to like it. And it is out today on HBO Max. If you've wanted more West Wing, we've got you covered as long as you vote. So here we are, me and Aaron Sorkin. You and I did not get a chance to talk much at the reunion. By the way, we're rolling. There's no preamble here. There's no fancy highfalutin introductions. I like that. And I can tell you that it's looking great. The West Wing special. Tell me everything you know. You've got a sneak peek on the West Wing. What do the dailies look like? What tell me everything? Well, past the dailies. We have a cut. What? And we are just doing sort of final tweaks on it. And it looks great. Tommy did a great job. You guys did a great job. John Hutman did a great job. It I'm not sure what to call it. It kind of looks like a play. But it's filmed beautifully. I think you're going to like it. I'm so excited. It was people have asked me, obviously, what was it like doing the West Wing reunion? And I think I told this, it was kind of like. Going to see the Rolling Stones. You're like, do they still have it? Those guys do it like that. And then that's that was the greatest part to watch. Just you guys taking no time at all to get right back to where you were. It's just it was like it felt very surreal to me. I mean, one of the things that I found is like playing Sam Seaborn again is I used to think that I kind of was that guy. And I realized because so much time has gone on is like he was a kid. Like I feel like now I'm a man playing Sam Seaborn. And it's not the same at all to me. And like, you know, when you've aged, I've sort of aged out of the out of him at that point in his life. Does that make any sense at all? It does. It's not a problem, though. I mean, you you definitely have the spirit of Sam and can play the part. And it's it seeing the older versions of everybody was really nice. There's a I don't know the characters aged well. I felt I was blown away with Martin blown away. He has not lost one step. Me too. How old is Martin now? 80 years old. And we have listen, he's great in the show and sort of coming in and out of acts and for the for the main title sequence. It's black and white behind the scenes footage. There are shots of Martin dancing with you. He he hasn't lost a step. Wow, he he and you know, memories hard that the shows historically hard on people who don't have good good memories. We you know, everybody from top to bottom was always really good at it. Nobody ever really struggled that much on the show. But you know, he's 80 and he was all over it. I mean, like all over it and as sharp as as attack. And he was he was as good as the day we shot the scene. How many years ago? How many years ago do you think we shot Heartsfields landing? We shot Heartsfields landing 19 years ago. Good Lord. And you're right. He was as good as the day he shot it. Everybody was. And I still have the same reaction when he told me that I he said, you know, you know, I know they're on film. It's it's it's you choke up. I mean, we choke up the audience. It's it's funny and Tommy had a great piece of direction. I felt we had it. It was really, really great. And and I was all really happy. And then Tommy took Martin aside and gave him a piece of direction. And I was like, I wonder what that's about. Is it's. I mean, I'm happy to do it again. I'm happy to do it a hundred times. And what he and what he said was apparently he said to Martin, Tommy Shalami, our director, said to Martin, say this as if you're saying it to John Spencer. And that what that's the take that I think that was the final take. I'm pretty sure you'll have to ask Tommy, but. It was I got I felt the same way. I remember getting the script of Heartsfields landing. I remember where I was when I got it. You know, we did, you know, you and I did four years of it. There's a lot of scripts. So I don't remember. Yeah. We're reading every one of them. But I remember reading that one. I was lying in bed in my rented studio city house that was seven minutes from the stage. Because, as you know, all we did was shoot. Yes, literally, I could I could wake up and be on the set in seven minutes with my hair wet from the shower. And I remember reading it the night before and getting to the point reading that scene where he says, I'll run for president one day. And I remember bursting into tears. And I think it was a number of things behind it, not the least of which was feeling great for Sam. But I felt like it was such a sweet vote of confidence. And it's like it was like you felt like dad went. Your dad was saying, hey, I'm proud of you. And I think that is right. Well, you know, when I was looking for an episode for us to do, I suddenly remembered Heart Steals Landing, which which wasn't at the top of my mind. And I just remembered that it was about voting. And I went back and I watched it for the first time since it aired 19 years ago. I'm always afraid of going watch going back and watching the show because I don't want. I worry that my memory is better than what it actually was. Yeah. But I watched Heart Steals Landing and it was great. Everybody was just giving a beautiful performance. And the episode was just right for for what we're doing for get out the vote special. And I felt exactly the same way about it. Watching it being shot again last weekend and then looking for and looking at the cut. It's like I said, it aged well. I think I think they all do. My thing about not watching the West Wing and I'm like you, I don't really watch it. And my my thing is because it's like it would be as if I was in an episode of Bewitched and got to go back in time and look at the first girl I fell in love with. Like, oh, do you know me? That's what it feels like to me. It's like I can't go. I would always watch it when it aired. I would watch it Wednesday at nine o'clock with with everyone else because I just kind of wanted to to to watch it through everyone else's eyes to kind of pretend I was seeing it for the first time, let the audience and just experience that. But then I would never watch it after that. So it had been a while, but that one doesn't disappoint. I know it would be like asking about your children because these every episode literally are your children. And I'm sure I'm not the first person to ever ask you that. Top three. Any possible? I think I know if you are going to answer this question. I think I know what they're going to be. Tell me because I can't answer the question. So you tell me what you think my top three are. All right. I think you have to go with the pilot because the pilot is the pilot and it's it's sort of, you know, it's sort of the perfect pilot. People talk about the Wonder Years pilot and the West Wing pilot as being because they were they arrived fully formed. Like it shows great as the Sopranos or Breaking Bad or Mad Men. You know, it takes it takes a little bit of like the Sopranos for me kicked in. I remember the episode it kicked in. It kicked in when Tony went and took a meadow on a college tour and had to excuse himself to kill somebody. Yes, like that's when it became the Sopranos, but it was not. You look at the pilot of the Sopranos, it's almost you're like, oh, OK. Yeah, it's actually kind of fun to watch. And I thought that we had some some very good first season episodes, including the pilot. But I for me, I felt like it took a season to learn how to write the show. I've heard you say that. I find that so hard. Even one episode, I absolutely stand by. Yeah, I like the pilot. I like. I also think I think I was thinking you would pick Shadow of Two Gunmen and two cathedrals, I think, would be on your list. Those are three good episodes and Shadow of Two Gunmen, I consider a second pilot. You know, we this was back in the days where there were summer reruns. And that is actually where we became a hit. What happened was people started hearing about the show through the first season. And then once we were in reruns in the summer, that that new audience that was coming to it, remember, in a time where there weren't smart TVs, you couldn't time shift. You had to watch the show. Let's say at a VCR, you have to watch the show at Wednesday at nine. People started coming to it in the summer. And Shadow of Two Gunmen was the rare episode that I knew about in advance that I knew that we were heading toward that. And it was a way of repiloting the show at the beginning of the second season for people who were just coming to it, that I'll introduce these characters all over again in a different way. I remember sitting behind. You've probably never knew this. I remember sitting behind you on the flight home from wrap of episode 22, season one, and you leaned over and someone had been shot. We just didn't know who. And I remember overhearing you saying it was going to be Josh. And that was, you know, that remember that flight was the that whatever United Airlines flight that we always took that morning was the flight was the route and time that eventually went into the Pentagon in 9 11. That's what's right. Always so that's right. It was certainly Erie. I do remember telling Tommy to in terms of who was going to get shot to leave my options open when he shot the season one finale. You know, had I known. Who was going to get shot in the shadow of two gunmen? We could have just shot it there while we were shooting the season one finale, right? We could have shot the teaser to episode 201, season two episode one. But that would have been easy production, Aaron. We don't do that. That is not our brand. Well, funny you should bring that up because what you missed after we wrapped you is that our two day schedule turned into a four day shoot. I'm especially talking about. So, yeah, we got right into that group again, too. Well, so for the for those of you who have not had the dubious luxury of working on an hour long network drama, their beasts there, you know, it's it's traditional that you shoot 12 hours a day. Sometimes a little less. But usually, you know, you're going to shoot a 12 hour day and you're going to shoot five days a week on the West Wing. I would say we routinely shot a minimum of 13 hour days. Sometimes 16. Yes. And by the time Fridays rolled around, we the first year of the West Wing, when we shot on Fridays, I never left the lot before the sun had come up on Saturday. It was it was crazy. You know, and remember, this is the show where nothing's exploding, right? There except our heads. Visual effects. It is people talking in rooms. And some reason. I mean, the reason was we were trying to to make it good. But you're right. By the time we got to Friday, because the call keeps getting later and later each day by the time we got to Friday, you know, we'd be starting at three in the afternoon. We'd be ending its sunrise on Saturday. Alison's trailer turned into a bar on Friday night. Yes. Yes. And the most maddening thing was seeing the friends cast. We were our stage was right next to the front stage. And I think we overlapped. There are I think our first season was their last season or our first two seasons was their last two seasons. And there were six parking spaces, you know, right next to their sound stage. It was six cars. And yes, they their cars were there for the Monday table read. And the Thursday audience taping, they'd just gotten really good at at doing friends. You know, the other thing that's funny about the West Wing is you realize there was there were no there were no blackberries. We had a pager that the the the the pilot turned on the plot point of me having the wrong pager. Blackberries came into the scene when you're having the wrong pager. The teaser, the whole opening of the series depended entirely on the audience not knowing what the acronym POTUS did for, which is amazing acronym we're all familiar with today. That's right. And because of I'm convinced it's because of it's for sure because of the West Wing. Look, I was a. Yeah, a student of politics and I was unaware of the acronym POTUS. Get me to. And we did in this, I think in the second season, we gave you guys blackberries because blackberry had just given them to the real White House staff and they wanted our guys to carry them to. So you're one of the first people to have blackberries. And you know how every once in a while there'd be an eight or nine page scene with basically the entire cast in the Oval Office. Those would be the scenes where directors would go to die. Yes, yes, yes, you got to get coverage of everybody in the scene. It's a room that has no corners in it or no straight walls. It's tough to figure out where to put the camera. And there'd always be like one character in the scene who on page nine said, thank you, Mr. President. And that's all they had. Yes, yes. And when it was Whitford's turn to be that person who's only had something on page nine and we had told you guys that just like the real staffers, when you're in these meetings, it's OK to every once in a while check your blackberry or return something. And so Whitford would send us, you know, text at the monitors just saying, how does my hair look? That's what he was doing during most. Hold the thought. We'll be right back. Well, people don't know about the cast is look at the cast is one of the great casts of all time and every actor is better than the next one. And just studs across the board, the 27 Yankees. Although I did have to explain. I did have to explain to somebody what the 27 Yankees was recently. And it made me very sad. It really. Yeah, I was like, they're very good baseball players. The analogy is we're very that was a line up of very good actors. That's the analogy. But yeah, people don't realize is how. There was a the scene stealing. We were aware of the amount of scene stealing that was attempted. I was not. What what what were people doing? I know Richard usually had food in his hand. Richard, if Richard could if you let Richard shift, he would enter every scene on a unicycle juggling a pizza if you let him. If. One of the things I've always loved about the West Wing and it's a tribute to you and Tommy and John is is is the casting of Richard in the show. Like in that era of television, I'm not sure Richard gets that job. With anybody other than you know, I'm not. Listen, we you're right. That the cast is the 27 Yankees and what you. What you can't predict what we couldn't predict was the chemistry in the cast between you and everyone between Allison and everyone, the Martin and everyone, John and everyone. And that was an amazing thing to see. What was anxiety inducing for me? Was. The number of mouths to feed, you know, that when you have Shaq and Kobe on the same team, there's starting a basketball. Yeah, sure. And that I just wanting to give everyone a good story, a great couple of scenes in every episode and feeling like, oh, shit, you know, Sam was like this week. That kind of thing because anywhere you went with the ball was somebody who can hit an open jump shot and now with the basketball analogy. Open jump shot is a shot in the basketball parlance where it requires a tremendous ability to get it into the cylinder. That's correct. That's Allison. Jenny, that is Allison. Jenny, she can hit that open J. Didn't you know I knew she was going to win every award known to mankind? I nicknamed her. It didn't really stick, but I nicknamed her hardware because she was going to have so much hardware on that mantle. And and it's true. I mean, even more so than I ever imagined. When we cast Allison, I had only ever seen her do one thing. Trip on a flight of stairs in primary colors. She had a quick scene with Travolta where she plays a teacher, Travolta's character, his Clinton character had done a thing at a school and we see later he's going to sleep with her. But we just see her walking upstairs and she just kind of trips down the stairs. So I knew I wanted her to read for the West Wing. And she was phenomenal. And I'm just thrilled with the amount of hardware that she's picked up, not just for our show, but for everything, since obviously, including her Oscar. And she's not done yet. You know, she hasn't done the best going to do yet. None of you have. Did you ever did you know that I was I was in the audience of her high school gymnasium when she made her acting debut? I did not know that. Tell us about that. I so I and Allison, I only did the math and put it all together. Years into the show. And I was like, you're from Dayton. I'm from Dayton. Where'd you go to high school? Miami Valley High School? Oh, yeah, I remember. I I didn't go there. That was the fancy like fancy school. And I was only there once. I was in their gymnasium and they were putting on a production of a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. And Allison looked at me with those big eyes and said, I was in that play. And it was my acting debut. Oh, God. Holy cow. What are the what are the odds? The odds are very long on that. Did you know that Allison was on her way to being like a serious world class figure skater? But something terrible happened. Her parents were having like a backyard party. And the phone rang inside the house and Allison ran to get it and went through a glass door into the kitchen. Then she bled a lot. And that was the end of her figure skating career. Well, I'm sorry about that. But if it if that's what got her to be an actress, then. In the end, I won. That you that brings a whole new meaning to her performance in I. Tanya. You know, that's right. I hadn't even thought of that watching. Right. I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah, it really does. Doesn't it? Oh, my God. That's amazing. I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if she channeled that for. Like how do I do it? Right. Deeply resents her kid. Yeah. Yeah. Then there was your audition, my friend. I was going to ask you because the people don't realize is you when you when you first everybody has to read for for anything Aaron does as they should. And it's I would and and you read with them. I read with you for my audition for Sam. Yes. And when I walked into the casting session and, you know, out the table is the session sheet who's coming in that day. And I saw your name. And I said, you got to be kidding. That the first of all, Rob's not going to read. And second of all, Rob Lowe can't be in the show. He's he's a movie star. He's he's he's going to take all the focus in every scene. It's it'll throw the whole thing out of balance. And you came in and as soon as you were done and walked out, I said, listen, he has to play his part. Nobody else can do it. That's exactly what I mean. He's got to do this. We've got to get it. That's how you're cast. It became an imperative. First, so I was so because, you know, as an actor at a certain point, you know, most actors don't want to audition anymore for good reason. It's it's nerve wracking. It's hard. Your ability to audition often has no translation to your ability to do the job, actually. Exactly. Right. And you have a body of work that we can look at and, you know, come some kind of judgment. But they sent me this script. And it was I was and I don't think I've ever had it since, honestly, where I read it and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm. I'm the only guy I'm the only guy that can play this. Like I literally thought. There'll be other versions, iterations of it. Sure, somebody could do it. But I know I knew in my bones immediately how what where I just like saw full field of view. So I was really excited to come in. That it was clear that you saw the that you saw the whole board in Hartfield Landing, Farland. Yeah. It was clear that you were excited to come in. And that, by the way, that is also something when you see an actor of your stature, a very happy to come in and read. It's not like we got a call saying Rob Lowe is interested and we said, well, he's going to need to come in and read. It's the first I knew of your interestedness was when I walked into the room that day. That's unbelievable. I went from this couldn't possibly work to this is the only thing that could possibly work. That is that I remember. I also remember. There were a lot of people in the room and, you know, it's the big speech where Sam, you know, mistakes, you know, Allison Smith for being a school teacher when she's actually Leo's daughter and steps in it badly. And it got a big laugh at the end and big laugh. And I'll never forget you turning to whoever was there representing the higher ups. And you said, I told you the scene was funny. Do you remember that? I don't remember that. I took the credit for your audition. No, no, no, I was great because I was like, oh, OK, because I found it funny. I always I mean, I think the people who do your stuff the best are the people who find the effervescent funny stuff and it comes naturally to them. And it was patently clear to me that, you know, obviously it's real and it's grounded, but it should be fucking hilarious. And when you said it was funny, it was clear to me that there are other people that could read that same scene on the page and not. Not see where the humor is. I'll bet you that is what happened, that other people had come in and it had not been funny and then you just parked. This is bad on so many levels in the pictures. I remember I have to say it was it. That was that was a correct. It was it was one of the most fun things in my career was auditioning for the West Wing. Really was. It was was challenging. I really was one of the most fun things in mind. No, well, I mean, and then, you know, we went. A lot not a lot of people know that we went to London together after the West Wing and did a few good men. Are you aware of what of what happened to me on opening night? God, no, God, what story am I about to hear? Well, first, let's just give some background. Yes, OK, we did. The few men had never been in London, never been on the West End. So we did it with Rob Starring and an otherwise British cast. We did it at the Royal Haymarket Theater, a beautiful theater with Oscar Wilde's theater. And now I'm about to get the hell scared out of me. What happened on opening night? I was there. Everything seemed fine. I think I think later on when I came up to you and told you what had happened, I think you might have stepped out for a cigarette and missed. That's possible. Well, here's what had happened. There had been a moment in rehearsals that had never really gotten the laugh that we all wanted. It was opening night. Now, for those of you who don't know in England, all the critics come on opening night. On Broadway, you do what's called previews and you never know. They could be you could have one on one night and two weeks later, everybody you don't know when they're coming for five nights before opening so that they can have their pieces ready for opening night. Yes, but you're right. And in the West End, they still all come on opening night. Which makes it tremendously stressful. Like it's the stakes are massive. Yeah. And there was one it was such an innocuous moment. I can't even remember what it was. But for the first time, this little mini moment worked and it got a reaction. And I felt so good about it. That I think I allowed myself to maybe not concentrate as well as I should have. And the next thing I know, I'm I'm I have an actor on the on the press in I'm prosecuting him and I see his face go white. And I realize I've jumped three pages ahead. You know this. I waited a while before telling me that I just don't remember anything about that. So anything about that. OK, so I'm not kidding. I'm this one hundred percent true story. And I'll never forget it. Time slows down. Now, as you I don't need to tell you, you fucking wrote it. You understand this. There's a lot of exposition that needs to be told. I just cut two pages out of it. So I I I'm like, OK, all right, chill, get it together, chill. And I was like, so I really committed like Uber committed like over committed to this really long walk across the stage. And then this really long look out into the audience as I was trying to figure out what the fuck I was going to do. And the tension was like thick, because it was clearly an acting choice. And I was clearly had my faculties and then I came back. No one who can come to your help at this point, because there are a lot of people on stage during that trial, no one can help you out, not the judge, not to witness, no one can help you. No one. You're the one asking the questions. OK. And yeah. And I and I in the most succinct way I could think of. I was like, let me backtrack for a moment. Corporal lieutenant. OK. OK, you did the right thing. And and and we got back on the road. We got back on the road very quickly. And then when I turned up stage to go back, no further questions. By the way, it was the most exhilarating, no further questions that have ever come out of an actor's mouth. And I walk walk back to the defense table. And and these these actors' eyes were like saucers. And and no one was the wiser. I mean, literally no one knew other than the actors, the audience never knew, the critics never knew you would have known. Thank God you were getting a cigarette. Wow. Thank God, indeed. The things that that happened on stage. I've had a play on Broadway. I had it for a year and a half until things shut down on March 13th until all theaters shut down and we'll be back again when New York is back again. But. The day after the shooting in Las Vegas and the giant. Yes, just a few people killed concert. Yeah, in Las Vegas. That was a Friday night on Saturday night. At around 10 30, which is about 10 minutes before our play before Tickle Mockenburg comes down in Times Square, a motorcycle backfired. And everyone in Times Square, and that's a lot of people at 10 30 on a Saturday night, started screaming and running. And if you run west from Times Square on either 44th or 45th Street, the first safe place you're going to find is our theater, the Schubert Theater. That's going to be the first place you're going to run into. That's open. Hundreds of people started running into the lobby and banging on the doors to get into the orchestra. They thought they were running away from a gunman. So everyone sitting in the orchestra starts to panic. And at this point, there's just one actress on stage, Celia Keenan-Bulger, playing Scout. And she didn't know what happened. Just the audience started screaming. She had every reason to believe that there was somebody in our theater with a gun or a knife that they were about to jump on stage. She clears the stage. The curtain comes down somehow. Somehow they got everything under control. But all I remember thinking is I'm sure that wasn't the first time a motorcycle backfired at Times Square. It's just the first time everyone assumed it was someone with a gun. Yeah. Yeah. The what happens on stage is. I remember I was I am still a huge Paul Newman fan. And I the only real time I ever had any interaction with him was at the Williamstown Theatre Festival. And his wife, Joanne, was directing something and I was doing a play up there. And I remember you were doing check off there, weren't you? I was doing check off with Christopher Walken. That's right. And and I remember Christopher Walken. Oh, I've got I got a couple of good ones. I got a couple of good ones I'm going to share. I'll bet you. They're so good. Oh, they're so good. But yeah, I should take over this interview. I want to talk to you. Yeah, you should. Bill, believe me, you wouldn't mean that. I like Baldwin did it. Alec took this whole thing over. It took the reins right from me. I was just, you know, yeah, I'm going to do that. So Newman was like, I love that you're doing the theatre because you always have it to come back to and not enough people do it. And and and it's that that's it's just you. It's just you up there and you never know what is going to happen. Do you know? So on a few good men, apparently I realized this during the run. There it's there's a couple that's famous for sitting in the royal box and having sex during the show. Do you know about this? I know I didn't know about that. I sure knew about the royal box and I thought that was cool. And just very quickly, of your listeners, there are a couple of theatres in the West and in London that have the royal designation, the Royal Haymarket, where we were is one of them. And I'm not honestly, I'm not exactly sure what that means, except that there is a royal box reserved for royalty. And now you say it's also reserved for something else. Well, so in it's in where they're situated is always perfectly in your sight line, if you're if you're standing profile to profile center stage. And which would make sense. You'd give the Queen the best seats in the house. So, yeah, it's always empty. But apparently I you can, if you know somebody or pay somebody, you can get it. Anyway, long story short, I looked off one one day and and there was a couple having sex, doing a very specific sex act. And and then I the rule like whatever. And then so at intermission, the stage manager went to them and said, you cannot do that. And so they just merely changed the sex act in the second part of the play. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. But apparently their thing is they like to go to theaters. And their thing public way. Do this, they want the actors to see them. And they and it's known like if you're a West End veteran, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. It's like, did you know that Judy Dench? You do about before you walked on stage that night? I did know I learned about it. Say, oh, here's a tradition you should know about here at the A-Market. That is that's exactly what it is. I did not know. Do you know that Judy Dench? Um, whatever she's in the West End has a tradition where she if she can leaves the show she's starring in while it's running and runs across the street and and does a walk on part on another show. Like that's her thing. I didn't know that. No. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that genius? It is genius. But I want to hear about you and Chris for walking and doing check off at Williamstown. OK, so. So. So, um, Chris, as you know, has a manner of speaking that is very enigmatic and that and he used to have a moment that I would come to the wings to watch every night. For and I never knew why I particularly liked it. It was just something about the way he said it. And it was basically in the play. The there's the village is on fire and they're all sheltering in place in an attic. And he's playing version. He's sheltering in place with the family and someone walks in and Chris's line is. How's the fire? And there's something about the way he said it that I found so compelling and could never put my finger on until the day I picked up what I thought was my script. It was his. And it was open to how's the fire? And he had crossed out the word fire in the script. And above it written the word barbecue. And I was like, that makes the other thing he did. He does, which is amazing is and this drive you maybe it wouldn't drive you berserk. How would you feel if you gave me that big Sam Seaborne speech and I took out all the punctuation and and memorized it in any way? He had another there was a line. This is a fucking check up. You I would feel bad. So it's Anton check off. The dialogue was. Um, important drama, important drama. And the theme was, you know, they want to go to Moscow. That's where people are smart. You know, that's where people are worldly. And one of the characters was like, well, actually, I don't believe in that. We know a lot of useless things as well. So I remember this very vividly. The dialogue is written by Anton check off. The Christopher Walken had to say was. Well, there you have it. Period. You know, a lot of useless things. Period. Press walken would say, well, there you have it. You know, a lot of useless things. And we'll be right back after this. Now, walking and at Baldwin, you two have hosted us on now a number of times. Yes. Yes. Um, we know a lot of stories, but I'm curious, just walk us through. The monologue. Okay. Um, our. Writer's pitching you stuff. Oh, are you saying I'd like to talk about this? How's that working? The monologue. First of all, the myth, every time you walk through the monologue, first of all, the myth, every time I've done it, it's the very first thing I ask about. And every single time. The answer is the same. Yes, we'll get to it. It is the absolute last thing anybody thinks about. Or gives you really the absolute dead last. You cannot get them to focus on it at all. That's all scare the hell out of you. Yes. Yes. Yes, it does. We're going to reach like 60% of our judgment on how good a host you were based on your monologue as unfair as that is. You got another 90 minutes to go. Um, but it makes perfect sense when you think about it, like from their perspective, that's what 5% of the show. If they want to make sure they have a show. Yeah. And, and, and then I'm not, I'm never, I always feel like the monologues were written by the head writers and not the staff and the staff is so competitive and everybody's trying to get their stuff on that it just, it kind of falls sort of through the cracks and they feel, and I think part of it is they're trying to get to know the host also. I think it's the best way to get their stuff on to rep something you like. Yes. And they're great about that because the, you know, the host does run the show really and truly and they're great about, about deferring to the host's taste. But at the three times I did it, the monologue, well, the, I remember what the time I hosted it when we were doing West Wing was, was me giving a tour of the White House, including the room where they quote, blow the president. Right. Right. And you also, because you did a church chat, right? Oh, yeah. Well, that's Dana. Yeah. So, well, I mean, just like, do you come on saying I'd really like to do a church chat if there's an established character, a recurring character? You do. The one I remember with, it started my relationship with Mike Myers, I came on and he was like, do you want to do a Wayne's World or a sprockets? And I was actually a sprockets guy, more than a Wayne's World guy, ironically. And so we get a sprockets is the greatest. I played a, I think a Belgian choreographer who indented an international dance craze called the trout. I remember. And you also, my friend, just perfect for sprockets. I mean, you know, come on. To that sort of perfect chiseled looking person. Did you, when you were doing Studio 60, did you, did you get to sit back with Lauren and drink Amstel's under the bleachers? No, I didn't. I've met Lauren Michaels once at a dinner that Scott Sassah had at his house for some time. Come on. You've not met Lauren Michaels more than that. Yeah, no, I haven't. I mean, obviously I'm a huge admirer. Yeah. It's, I'm not sure how many people know just how difficult doing that show is as an L and to do it for 40 something years now. I and keep it at this level is I just got unmatched in television. You know, Lauren is the ghost that haunts every podcast I do. I mean, Lauren comes up. I'm not kidding. And in almost every interview I do every single one because he's, I mean, if you're even at all funny or interested in comedy, you love Lauren. And then if you know, Lauren, he's the most quotable person who ever lived. So in fact, Amy Polar and I, when we were doing, um, uh, Perks and Rec, we were going to, we wanted to do a fake Lauren Michaels Twitter account with some of his amazing truths. And by the way, did you ever, did you know that, um, that they, when they made Perks and Rec, the thinking behind it was they all love the West Wing so much that if the drama took place in the White House, where would the comedy take place? And they figured it would take place in the Perks and Rec department. Did you know that? Well, that's incredibly flattering at the show was, uh, was on their mind at all when they were conceiving it, that they're conceiving of it. The show is fantastic and it's funny because you, uh, and I really would, I really like to, would like to talk about Perks and Rec. Uh, but you were on two shows that, uh, are Valentine's to Public Service. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Isn't it weird? It's, it's weird. It's, it's, it's, um, I feel great, um, satisfaction in that. And also cause I really think I'll put the West Wing up there with any drama and I'll put Perks up there with any comedy, you know, and to be able to, I agree. And I also think, uh, that there has been episodes of parks, scenes in parks that in that moment were the best drama on TV. And I think that there were very funny moments on, on the West Wing. Uh, but that parts of rec rec cast was another incredible cast. Yep. Um, I don't know if you know this, but Nick Hoffman, Nick Hoffman. Yes. He's in the West Wing. Yes. He's Puey, the Puey, the wolf, right? Puey the wolf. Yes. And I didn't know this. I think until last year that Anna Gassteyer was the Butterball Hotline operator. No. Yeah. She was. I'm sure what happened was this, that the reason why I didn't know it was her was that we hadn't cast the part by the time, you know, we shot, we're shooting Martin's side of the phone call and we only ever hear of her. So it was probably an AD reading in the operator. Uh, and then somehow we cast Anna Gassteyer without my knowing about it. Uh, and if I'd known, I would have written an episode called the, the Butterball Hotline operator. Uh, yeah. Part two, but back to parts of rec. Um, I want to know they. Did they come to you at the end or in the middle of the second season and say, we're going to go in a whole new direction and this is what it's going to look like? Did how much of it was envisioned when they came? Oh, you, this is, you'll love this. So, um, being a veteran of it, don't tell me that Mike had like an outline and everything. No, no, no, no, this is, it's like, it's like politics. You don't want to see how the sausage is made a lot of the times. Okay. And yeah. So. I, um, had just finished doing John Robin Bates show. I know who you love, uh, brothers and sisters. Yeah. So I do love you love Robbie. We love our Robbie Bates and I wanted to do a comedy and, and I love 30 rock love, love, love 30 rock, love Tina, love Alec and I, and I was like, I want to be on 30 rock. Is there any way I can be on 30 rock? And the network was like, uh, no. How about no, how about you're not going to be on that show? And I was like, no. And then the, and then, but they were like, but would you ever consider going on perks and recreation? And which I was not that familiar with at that point. And, but I knew that people loved it. I knew it was like a cult, really, really cult, loyal fan base, but certainly not like a big hit, but like, I knew, like, I knew I was supposed to like it. How about that? You know, shows, you know, you're supposed to like. That was one of them. And so I watched it. Obviously I fell in love with it. Then they went to Mike and said, Hey, is there a world in which Rob Lowe comes on to parks and record Mike was like, what the fuck? What? I mean, what? Cause he wanted Adam Scott to come on. Oh, and so there's this weird. Sh, like shotgun marriage thing happening, but everybody loves everybody and nobody is against it, but it's kind of odd. And so I, I meet with Mike and it's, we have a great time and Amy kind of just happens to drop by to basically make sure that I'm not a axe murderer. It's clear. And, and so we make a deal for me to do six episodes, period six. And if they like me at the end of six and I like them at the end of six, we'll do more and I loved it from day one. And there came a time where I was playing, my character had the flu and I was doing a scene where I was looking in the, in the mirror and I ad lib stop pooping. You ad lib that? Yes. That's sort of a hall of fame moment for parks and rec stop pooping and ad lib. And amazing. And that was the moment that Mike sure said asked me to come back on the show full time and I did and we're happy to have done it. Uh, the rest of us are happy that you did it too. Um, uh, obviously the, the very early turning point for the character. Uh, was you're on the date with Rashida. Um, and you explain why you're so optimistic, uh, that you were born with this blood disease. Um, and so like every day just feels like a miracle. Uh, and it was a great, great moment for her. And so the audience and Rashida kind of fall in love with you at the same time. They knew what they were doing. They really did. And it was, and you know what Aaron, it's like when you, it's like all the shows that people like come from, come from a source and a real strong point of view. Mike sure on, on perks you on and everything you do and it's you feel it. You know, when there's a cook, a chef in the kitchen, you know it. Yeah. And the, the, the gift that Mike has and that Greg Daniels, um, uh, has to, uh, it's so hard to be hit and have heart at the same time, uh, TV show. And that's what parks and rec did. I know there's a whole new group of people now. My daughter is 19. She and her friends, uh, they're obsessed with parks and rec. They, they think it's on now. They don't, they don't think they're watching the show from a few years ago. They think it's on now. They think the West Wing is on now. Um, and it's this new chef that they're really into, uh, they're not certain how it is you're on both. What, what I love is, and I wonder if, okay. They, I've been on TV and done movies a long time, but I'd never had a catchphrase. Right. And that's not really what you traffic in. You're not like a big catchphrase guy. So of course I didn't have any on the West Wing. And Perkins yours or was that written in the script as and period Perkins period? And Perkins was me. That was that, that was. That was me because it came out of my Tom Cruise impersonation. I was, I was, I was impersonating Tom Cruise to Mike in the first meeting. I don't know why I love Tom. I'm gonna say he's, I, he, as you know, he's, there's, he's the last real movie star. Um, but you know, he's, you can't, you see, can't you see Tom doing that? Think about Tom going, Aaron Sorkin, right? Yeah. Like, so that's where that came from. And then literally the word literally, um, Mike, when I, when I wrapped the show, gave me his framed original notes from meeting with me from that first meeting. And in it, he had written, he says literally all the time. So that's where that came from. And yes, two days ago I was surfing and I got out of the water and there were these 14, had to have been no more than 14 years old boys, a gaggle of them. And they started shaking when they saw me and they were like, Chris Traeger. I said, and I went literally, and they like lost their minds and it was so fun to have a catchphrase. I'll bet they did. That's fantastic. Now, Aaron, before we go, I, I, I need to hear about the trial of Chicago seven. I need. I'll tell you quickly, just because the reason I have to go is to get on a marketing call with Netflix about the trial of the Chicago seven, um, which is my sophomore directorial effort. I wrote it to the true story of a terrible riot that broke out in Chicago at the Democratic National Convention. Uh, it was confrontation between protesters and police from the National Guard, uh, which is now starting to look too familiar on the news. And then this insane conspiracy trial that followed up the leaders of the protest. Um, and it's, uh, Mark Rylance, Sasha Baron, Cohen, Eddie Redmayne, Jeremy Strong, Franklin Jella, Joseph Gordon, Leavitt, Michael Keaton. Uh, uh, it's a big cast and, um, Aaron, you gotta get better actors next time. Jesus Christ. I know I'm having bad luck with that. Cause I have had the greatest luck with actors and, uh, including, especially you, my friend, um, and I owe you a great deal. Uh, and you're going to be very proud of the West Wing. Uh, uh, get out the vote, especially you really are. And by the way, I think we're going to drop this podcast the week that the West Wing is out. So if you're, if you're listening to this right now, uh, I think, I think it's on HBO max starting today. HBO max starting October 15th. Yep. October 15th. And I want to do part two with you at some point because I want you to, uh, to talk, I want to hear about your version of directing. I really do. I want to hear, I want to hear, um, we have, we have way more to, I didn't even get to talk to you about Moneyball. I didn't get to talk to you about winning your Oscar. Um, I didn't get to talk to you about your Steve Jobs commencement speech. Oh, well, I would love to talk to you about any of this. Any of this. So anytime you want. Okay. Okay. Cause I mean, in all seriousness, those are all, those are pod, every one of those subjects are podcasts worthy. We've got to do part two. Are you down? I am down for part two. All right. Pen me and not even pencil. All right. I've got the pen. All right. Thank you for being here. Appreciate it. You love your brother. Bye. Thanks so much, Rob. Take it easy. Well, I just did my little bit to help the trial of the Chicago seven. I let Aaron out of a talk that could have gone on for many, many more hours. So he can go work on the ad campaign. So when you see the ad campaign, know that I had something to do with it because there's so much more to talk about with him. Um, I find him deeply, deeply fascinating and, um, he is a character himself. As you now know, having listened to him for, for this amount of time. Um, and one of the, one of the nicest men ever. Um, so part two will happen at some point. My guess it'll be when he's nominated for an Oscar. I'm just saying this is one of the Western characters. I always said, I'm just saying, I think it's in the often for him. Um, and we will reconvene then. But in the meantime, I will see you all next week on literally with Rob low. You have been listening to literally with Rob low produced and engineered by me, Devon Tory Bryant, executive produced by Rob low for low profile. Adam Saxon, Jeff Ross at team Coco and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher, the supervising producer is Aaron Blair, talent producer, Jennifer samples. Please rate and review the show on Apple podcasts and remember to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts.