Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with Parvati Shallow)

Which of these politicians do you think would do well on Survivor? Are you ready? Donald Trump. Oh, God. No, he's not one for roughen it. His face would melt off. His skin, is it even real skin? It's like latex. It would just... Hey, everybody, it's John Lovett and this is Love It or Leave It Presents Bravo America. I'm sitting down with some of my favorite icons of reality TV because I genuinely believe you cannot understand politics in this moment if you don't understand the dynamics of reality television. Congresswoman Sarah McBride put it perfectly on Pod Save America earlier this year. Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for a couple of reasons. One, it's because they want attention, right? They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people and the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw a wine in their face. So today I'm talking to Survivor's Black Widow, Parvati Shallow. She just went on a pretty interesting run on this season of Survivor Australia versus the world after which she announced her official retirement from Survivor. She's been on the Traders. She also won Survivor Micronesia back in 2008. She is the most experienced Survivor player with a record 165 days spent on the island in her career. It was an awesome conversation with Parvati. Parvati is somebody that started her life on a hippie commune rising to become famous for being one of the most charming and conniving people to ever play Survivor or any game on reality television. And she has a lot of really interesting insights about what reality TV taught her about herself, about television and fame, and about our country. We talked about how Survivor evolved to become more inclusive and equitable. We talked about how being such a fierce player on reality show has affected her relationships off the show. We also talked about some of the greatest political backstabs in history. So I'm very excited for you to hear her analysis. Her book, Nice Girls Don't Win, How I Burned It All Down to Claim My Power is out right now. Here she is, Parvati Shallow, the Black Widow. I have PTSD from my game show experiences. And I've done quite a bit of therapy to recover from them across the board. And I will say, yeah, this is my first time, I think, sitting at a round table since Traders. I don't have a round table. I have square tables. Well, I'm sorry that we didn't think about that. We didn't know that was going to happen. But wait, so what? I might need to lay down on the couch. So why? Like, you're one of the greats. You know that you're one of the greats. You take that. You take that as... I do. I receive it. I think it comes from longevity and from putting myself out there and then proving to myself over and over again that I last to the end most of the time when I play these games. So yes, I have done some digging into what makes me so good at these games. To write my book, I really dove into it. And I was like, oh, I see the hallmarks of a good reality show player, survivor strategist, Traders player. You have to be able to just dive into the unknown and not need to control every element of it. You have to be able to be told what to do, but then also find your way around all the rules to make it work for you. So there's some things that I was born into in my life that really prepared me mentally to do well in these games. Yeah, I feel like that's also what I brought to my three days in Survivor. Yeah. And that because I was able to really... I did not get eliminated for any of the first two days that I was there. Congrats. And I'm really proud of that. And so it's just like two great reality show players sitting at a table talking. What a treat for the audience. That's a true delight. So by the way, before you came in, we were testing the audio and we had the clip of my being voted out that we were going to show you later and just to test it. They just... Speaking of PTSD, I was just sitting in this room as they played me getting voted out over and over and over again. Like I'm nothing. Like I'm an object. I'm so sorry for your loss. So it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. They're all laughing at you. Yeah, they all found it pretty fucking funny. So you were originally supposed to be on the Amazing Race all the way back one, right? Yeah. And so you weren't even trying to get on Survivor. No. And then you get cast on Survivor. Right. What did you think about it before you went on it? What was your awareness of it? How confident in your own kind of ability to strategize were you? I wrote this casting story in my book and it's one of the most fun stories in there because I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but I really wanted the adventure. And when I got cast on Survivor, I was like, oh, that's the show where they eat bugs. And the casting director was like, yep, you got it. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. Sounds great. So I threw myself into this adventure not knowing what to expect. And it was a culture shock, steep learning curve. I mean, I went camping and stuff when I was young, but I never slept in the dirt with bugs crawling on me and starved. So that was new, fresh take. But I realized that it's a social game. So I had been playing Survivor socially since I was born and then in high school, especially because I really went for it with a senior superlative. I wanted to win Friendliest. You guys know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I was so hardcore about this superlative. So I like played Survivor in high school. I gathered my allies. I had a girl group, like basically the OG Black Widow Brigade. I formed it at Sprayberry High School with my three best friends. And they helped me win all the things I wanted to win. Do you think that that might have been a bad sign for me when I graduated with no friends? I did. I did. I was zero. I shot the moon high school wise. But look at you now. Sure. I was voted or I was runner up both for most likely to outsmart Einstein. That was something. Runner up? Runner up. Who beat you? I think it was Adam Taubman. Adam. And I get it. I got it. Has he applied for Survivor? I don't think so because he's a little bit smarter than me. But the... Where is Adam now? And then... Do you think that people who play Survivor are a little bit dumb or a little bit crazy or like what is it that makes us want to do that? I can't speak for all of the many others. But I think that like having been through it, it makes you more outraged when people quit because you know what it takes to get there and it is so much work to get there. And I think you have to... Steve Martin wrote this book and it has this line which I'm going to paraphrase in Butcher, but it's something like you need delusions of grandeur to get you between moments of genuine inspiration. And I think you have to have the ability to really, really believe something insane for a long time to get you all the way from the US to Micronesia or Fiji or wherever it may be. Like yes, everybody has little flights of fancy, but you got to be able to hold on to it for months without reality creeping in before you look around and be like, what am I doing here? I know, you're so right. It is a complete fantasy world. Or I think also you have to have like such an insane real life that leaving your real life to go play survivor feels like the responsible thing to do. Oh, that's interesting. Was that how you felt? Yes. What was going on? What was going on for you when you decided to do this? Well I had recently graduated college and I had started working at this PR firm. I got a real job with my degree. I got a degree in journalism and public relations and I was working at this PR firm and I like slogged in day after day for three whole months and I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I quit and started waiting tables and just spun my wheels, didn't know what I was going to do. I started boxing. I was competing in boxing matches, partying in Hollywood with a crew and was recruited by a casting associate who knew that I was a boxer. And was like, that's cool. Like be on TV. And I was like, how did you know? This is my destiny. Yeah, but it really is your destiny. Do you feel like it? Like you're even just sitting here like we've we've met before, but even sitting here, I'm like, oh my God, the TV charisma that comes off of you just sitting at the table is like so intense. And like, I see how you managed to just sort of insorcel all these men into your, no, but I see it. It's really in like, and by the way, like, like men and women over the years who have like just sort of like followed you into their own demise, which is just so interesting. But I get it because I think I would. I'm captured right now. You are captured. You actually can't leave. That's right. I've bolted the door. That's right. Yeah. Don't even try. I'm like really having PTSD in this room because the round table is reminding me of traders and behind you, you've got these little figurines and stacks of books. It looks like the trader's set in here. What was it? So the monkeys up there. Sure. Yeah. That was a big feature. That lamps one of the most expensive things in this room. We never see it. That couch too. That couch and those monkeys. The eagle pillow, is that from, where is that? A vintage spine from Tasha Tree? For sure. Or maybe like World Market. So you're on Survivor. So first of all, you're on this season, which turns out to be a great and amazing season with a lot of amazing moments and players. Cook Islands, the race wars. Well that's the thing. It was also a season where they tried something insane. And you don't know because you didn't know you were on a race war until like what you get to the beach. Is that when you found out? Like when did you know? I was completely flabbergasted. I was like, this is illegal. You can't do this actually. This is illegal. So for people listening basically that season, which has amazing players on it, but begins with four tribes and they are divided by race. And you're just like, no. What? So I was like, is this kosher? And they were like, yeah, you can say that. I'm like, what is going on? So the journalists that came down in the earlier seasons of Survivor, I don't know if you had this when you played, but we would have pregame press. Yeah, we did that. Okay. So the journalists were there and they were interviewing us and they were like, any guesses on what the theme is? And I was like, no, I've never even seen the show. I have no idea what I'm doing here. And the only person who figured it out was, can you guess? Was it Yule? Yeah. Well, of course it was. God, he's so smart. He's so smart. Truly so smart. So smart. He's so smart, but I will tell a funny story about Yule. Okay. So on season 40, Yule like fully blindsides me. He gets me out of the game. Then he comes to Edge of Extinction next and we're sitting and chatting and he's like, so I'm going to make a spreadsheet about games to play with children. So I have kids and I just need some ideas. Like what are some fun ideas? I'm like, wait, you're making a spreadsheet of things to do with your kids. Like he's crowdsourcing, playdate ideas and activities to do with his kids because he's too smart. Just to fill the time while waiting at Edge of Extinction. Yeah. He's like building a spreadsheet in his brain. And then he's like, also, I would also like to add in lunch items. What do we pack kids for lunches? And he's crowdsourcing ideas and building full on Excel spreadsheets of things to do with his kids and what to pack. Just like in his mind while we're sitting there. Oh, he's so smart. Is he one of the smartest? Is he the smartest person you played with? What do you think? Definitely. Hands down. There's no one smarter than Newell. There was something amazing about how he played, which was different than I think any other winner, which is he was so transparent and direct. Not since, I mean, there was that moment in the very first season where Richard Hatch basically explains the game theory, which is I need to let go because you'll do what's in your interest and I don't want to vote for Rudy. So I'm going to step back and I think it's going to work and it did. Like he was so methodical and direct with people and I don't think there's been someone who was able to do that in the same way. It's really hard to be that forth, right? Yule did have the idol that he could play after the votes were read, this like super special, ultra powerful idol. So I think that gave him even more of a sense of authority and power. But yeah, I think you're right. I can't think of anyone who has been that upfront. Yeah. Did you know going in how good of a liar you were? So here's the deal. I am very good at emotional manipulation. I am very bad at lying. It's a gray area and hear me out. Lying to me means like making up a lie. So I also tell the story in my book when I'm with Natalie and Alexis and I've tried to opt away from Amanda and Ceri and I'm like, oh my God, I need them on my side. So I make up a lie and I say, Eliza wants to vote out Alexis. Me saying that was like, I had like a pit in my stomach. It's like, you know that feeling where you're like, I'm going to get caught. I know someone's going to out me. I get super paranoid. So that's why it was really hard for me being a trader on traders because I was like lying and having to say like, no, I'm not a trader and here's this person's a trader and that's why blah, blah, blah. But on survivor, you can just say, yeah, I'll vote with you. That's kind of an easy one versus making up a lie that you're like, I'm going to get caught. If someone plays this back and they, if Alexis talks to Eliza and then they come together, they're going to out me and then how do I get out of that? That freaks me out. It's interesting to think about this. So is the difference, I'm just trying to understand your distinction because they're just to be clear. I think you're lying in both, but in one, no, but, no, but I think here's why you're right. It is lying in both. It's just sort of like a shade of lying. Well, I feel like in one, the lie can be proven objectively because it's just simply a false story about the world. In the other, you're kind of more lying at how you feel. And you're the only one that knows if it's true or not. Unless you've also told someone else you're going to vote that way. Which is why I love a blindside. I love a secret vote. I love a blindside because then the person is gone out of the game and you don't have to deal with them tomorrow. Is that why you feel like your skills were better suited to survivor than to traders? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But with traders, when I had the secret mission with the chalice, I can pull that off. That's a body lie. What's a body lie? A body lie is like, you just hold it in your body. You're like, I'm pretending to be your friend right now, but I'm actually going to kill you. Wow, that's a body lie. So many different kinds of lying that you claim to not be very good at, a little bit alarming. 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I took that Helix Sleep quiz and I was matched with a Dawn Luxe because I wanted something firm but plush. Sleep it on my side, sleep it on my back, sleep it on my stomach, all the positions. Sounded worse than I mentioned, all of them. Your personalized mattress is shipped straight to your door free of charge. Go to helixsleep.com slash love it for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com slash love it for 20% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you helixsleep.com slash love it. So in your first season, you make it far and you've even said this, that kind of you played off the assumption that you were going to be like ditzy and you're like a flirt, right? But it was, fans versus favorite, I don't know if you tell me, but to me in my mind, I think, oh, you did great in your first season, but fans versus favorites, that's when you became like a force. That was when the black widow was born. And just over people who may not have seen it, one of the most amazing runs in any reality show, any competition show ever, you're just murdering people week after week. And it's one of the greatest moves, but it required also one of the dumbest moves in the history of the game, which is somebody giving up their immunity idol because they didn't want anyone to not like them, I guess. Very sweet. So when you're in that moment, are you thinking, I can't believe this is working. Are you thinking, oh my God, this is amazing. Television, are you thinking, what are you thinking? I can't believe this is working. That was like blowing my mind. I was running on a loop over and over again because I'm looking at Eric in tribal council, taking the necklace off his body. And I'm looking at the jury and Eliza's mouth has hit the floor. It's hanging open, unhinged. James has his head in his hands. Eric's still taking the necklace off, handing it over to Natalie. And I'm hiding behind him, trying to look like, yep, of course, this is exactly what we planned and yes. And inside I'm like, oh my God, how is this actually happening? What's Jeff's face doing? Jeff is trying to pop. He knows. He knows what's unfolding before him. He's got the information. Yeah, he's mind boggled, but he's also part of the special world. He doesn't want to blow it for us in that moment. So he's also keeping his face as neutral as possible. But I see it. Like I can read Jeff and I'm like, oh, he's really loving this. Can you read Jeff? Yeah, I can. What are you reading when you're reading Jeff? Well, no, Jeff's like, he's an excellent host because he reads people so well. And when he sits at tribal council, he's, I feel like Jeff and I have similar sort of social brains. You really understand body language and like a little, if you push on this lever over here, then this one over here will crack and this will crumble. And I'm like, Jeff is sort of like a maestro in that way. I know what you mean by saying you're similar. You're also both like hyper present. Like you're like more here than most people are here. Like I can just see that. And like Jeff is the same way. You're like, oh, like I have to be extremely engaged because this is a person who is extremely keyed into what's happening right now. Does that stress you out or is it okay? No, it doesn't stress me out. It forces you to do the same in a good way, I think. Like it does. It actually reminds you about the importance of being present. And so like as we've been talking, I have found myself becoming more present. Like if I was a little bit less present, what would you be doing right now? I would still be doing this, but I might be like willing to kind of look around a little bit more or to go to my screen a little bit more, but you don't allow that. No, but it's not like you're not even, not that you're demanding it. It's that like you're very intense. You know that I'm very intense. I'm a Scorpio moon. I can't stop myself. This is just how I am. Yeah. I was born like this because of where the planets were. You think apparently, yeah, this is what I've been told. And I live in the haunted house. What does that mean? So I don't know. I think it has to do with my Scorpio moon. I enjoy a haunted house and I'm making a whole show about it. I'm making a haunted house reality competition show. How do you feel about ghosts? They've never created much trouble for me. Would you live in a haunted house for a week? Oh, yes. Yes? Absolutely. Okay. You're on the path. Fuck yeah. That's great. No, I'm, you know, astrology, I just think when people stop going to church, they really were casting about for something to believe in. No, no, no. Astrology has been around before church. I do a deep dive into history. Astrology was here from the dawn of time, from the dawn of humanity, even before humans existed. Before, there was, well, I mean, there were certainly stars. Stars and planets and aliens. But no one to look at them. Oh, aliens. Do you think they have star science aliens? I think they are the star science. I mean, what's going on? Do you want to go there? I'll take you there. Take me there. Okay. Well, look, we're what? 70% water. Yeah. And the moon controls the tide. Unless I have like jelly or something, then it feels like it goes up. The moon controls the tides of the ocean. So if you look at planet Earth as a body, if we're all like microcosms of the macro, planet Earth is like an eyeball of a giant in outer space. Are you guys on mushrooms yet? I didn't think about taking mushrooms before this. But think about it. I am thinking about it. I probably have some in my bag if you want. Yeah, that tracks. I'm also not on mushrooms right now. I don't think you are. I know that you're not. How do you know? I just don't think you are. I don't think you are. No, this is just truly how I am. But I also really think this way. And I think it helps me on Survivor because I can zoom in and be super present and do like the game and strategize with you, but also be thinking like we are inside of the eyeball of a giant. Like we are floating in outer space. What is happening? How are we even glued to this planet? How are we not falling off? Yeah, that doesn't make sense. We should just spin off of it. I agree. So do you think that maybe growing up in a commune had something to do with this? Yes. I was born into magical thinking. That's cool. Born into it. And I make these parallels in the book. It's really wild. I feel like I was destined to play Survivor. Not amazing race. I have no direction. I lived in New York for like four years and never figured out which way to walk outside of the subway. I would always go the wrong way for like a full 10 minutes. I get that. Ugh. So I'm glad I didn't do amazing race. But I basically was born into Survivor. The commune that I lived in was a like wooded, swampy kind of place in Florida run by a female guru, very charismatic. We would have these fire ceremonies at night where people would gather around these fire ceremonies. She would lead them and people would throw their karma into the fire they would throw. Like they're like, it would be like confession. It's what people do at tribal council. They come in and they're like, I'm going to confess my bad deeds. And Jeff is going to absolve me from my guilt and whatever. And then you're going to actually just vote someone out and crush their dreams. I was doing all of this. I was a part of all. I was born into it. Wow. Yeah. Is that where you picked up astrology, you think? I mean, I don't really know where I picked up astrology, but I love it. I'm so, I geek out about it. It's so fun for me to think about. I love thinking about being a Scorpio moon. Also, Amy Lou, what is a Scorpio moon? And I love her and I love having that in common with her. That's exciting. So I'll talk about it till the day I die. So how many seasons of Survivor have you done? Five. Five. That's four in the U.S. and now you're doing this with Australia versus the world. Oh yeah. And how many people were there? We had seven on seven, 14 people. And how many did you know? How many? It was pretty good. Thank you. How many did you know? Did you know your side? I knew David from the Australian side because we'd played Deal or No Deal Island together just weeks before I went out there. And then on my side, it was me, Tony and Ciri. Wow. I know. So after the Black Widow Brigade has its moment, did you stay close after or was the kind of thing like you did at Bank Heist together and now we kind of go our separate ways? We did go our separate ways. And I think it had a lot to do with, well, Ciri lived on the East Coast and I lived in LA and Amanda and I, we just didn't really stay connected after the game because she was dating Ozzie. And Ozzie was mad at me for blindsiding him. And you got him. And Amanda didn't pass up and say she was part of it. I felt this a little bit after, which is like, I got what you, I was the first about whatever. But like, so it's not like we were close. But I just, I went in believing this, I feel this leaving, which is it's like all's fair in the game, right? Yeah. But emotions are emotions. Like have tensions followed you with people after the game like that? Yeah. Especially back then, we were all really young and it was kind of still new. Survivor was sort of a baby still. Yeah. And it's now 50 seasons of the show, which is wild. But yeah, back then, like this was a really big deal and a different era in pop culture. Paparazzi would chase us around like people cared about what we were up to. And we didn't have anything else going on. Like we were in our early 20s. And so this was the biggest deal for all of us that had ever happened. And people wanted to be famous, want to be actors, wanted to be celebs. And I'd crushed Ozzy's dreams and he was mad at me. And James and I stayed very close after the game. He moved to LA and we were like besties. He helped me move. Like he was just the sweetest, best guy. He did a few guest appearances. He was on like all my children are in general hospital. He loved soap operas. They're so fun. Isn't he funny? So great. He's like this big, giant man. You gotta help you move. Oh yeah, he was great. He just left a couch with his one hand. Put it over there, James. But would you say Sari is like the best player to never win? A thousand percent. Right? Like it has to be. I mean there's a lot of great players who haven't won but like she was. I don't know what the deal is with Sari. She's so good. But she won traders. She won traders. So she has won. She could have won Big Brother. She was close there. She's come so close on Survivor. I know. Well, she got the most. The elimination without any votes was one of the most like outrageous. What? Just the too many rules intersecting at one moment to fuck Sari. That sucks. I know. What do you think about that? Like shot in the dark and the other kind of things. I was gonna, yeah. As a player it's hard. It just makes everything harder. But in terms of like as a show, like they say like if you're writing a script, people will buy a bad coincidence but not a good coincidence. So like if a character is in debt and then gets in a car accident, you buy it. If a character is in debt and then wins the lottery, you don't buy it. You're like, oh, well, that doesn't matter. It's not satisfying. Right. And the problem with luck in Survivor is it's a zero sum game. So any person's lucky loss is another person's lucky gain. And so it inevitably cancels out. And so I like, oh, I always love just, I want to see people fighting each other and having the rules fall back a little bit. But I also get that like, you know, people, people now criticize the new era, but they also forget that some of those early seasons, those early episodes could be pretty boring because there weren't twists and alliances had formed and you could try to find drama in it. But like you went through multiple episodes where it was just, you knew what was gonna happen like pretty early on, right? Cook Islands was really straightforward. Yeah. And the fact that I was in Indonesia was less so because they did have a tribe swap and people were like gunning for me from the beginning. So I did have my back against the wall early. And for me, when that happens, like I come out kicking and screaming, like you are not going to get rid of me easily. And I think that makes good TV. Yeah. When someone's got their back against the wall and there's someone who will do whatever it takes to get, get themselves out of that situation. Like that's what I want to watch. I loved watching fades at the round table on traders fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades fades I don't know, someone else is excited about it, I'll watch. But it's like, there's a lot of people. Yeah. Right? Well, yeah. It's like 50 seasons of the show. And I'm kind of, I'm at a place where I'm moving forward with other projects that are not survivor-related. Mm-hmm. So it's just a big time commitment for me to... 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I was very focused, but what happened in my vote out was basically somebody had just kind of like, they kind of collapsed and kind of begged and had like a real like kind of crazy moment on the mat where they basically like immolated a little bit. And whether it was like fully strategy or not, what I realized is, oh, like, I'll fight really hard. And like I did. And like we, I tried so many different things to get out of it, but I just didn't have a lot of leverage. It was the first vote. It was like hard to, it's hard to move. What I realized is something I couldn't do is like, oh, I'm not going to, like there's a camera here. It's, I'm not going to beg, right? Like I don't want it. So I want to fight hard and win, but not in a way that was like, I wasn't willing to, you see, right? I wasn't or be pathetic. And like in your seasons and the early seasons, there really just wasn't that really didn't happen as much. And now there have been seasons where people just kind of go a little bit pathetic and then they're not threats anymore. And so they hang on for a while. I think you really have nailed something. Yeah. There's, the casting is very different now than it used to be. I mean, look, they used to recruit. Like I was recruited. I'd never seen the show. Now the way that people are getting cast in the game is they've wanted this for 20 years. They've tried out over and over and over again. This is their shot. They've now been filmed at home. Their family knows they're going. I think they talk to their family and they're like, whatever it takes, do whatever it takes. I don't know if they're being encouraged to have those more emotional moments, but it does seem that we're seeing a lot more of those. I don't think they're being encouraged. I think it's just happening. I think it's just happening. Because that did also did not happen on Australian Survivor. Really? So no. So that's like not a thing. But it's longer, right? Australian Survivor. Well, the one that I played was shorter because it was a special season. So they did it as a big celebration. It's like the Olympics of Survivor. How long was it? 16 days. 16. But I'll tell you what, Sarri and I were sitting under a log crying because we're getting rained on and we're like, why are we doing this? Even one day of getting rained on is actual torture. Why were you doing it? Why? Because I had unfinished business because it was in Samoa. I lost Heroes vs. Villains by a smudge. I felt like I really, I had some unfinished business in Samoa specifically and I never wanted to play Survivor again. The US version after season 40 because I was like, there's pregame alliances. These new people don't want me around. They don't want to play with me. So I'm not going to go and play a game that no one wants to play with me. That's like torture. But the Australians might want to play with me. The international people might want to. So I was like, oh, there's a sliver of hope that maybe I could win this game. And when they call me to do it, I was like, Olympic Survivor, 16 days I can leave my kid for that amount of time. It's not as big of a lift to go leave for a month and a half. But 16 days I can do it. It ended up being like three weeks all in. And I was like, I got to go and I got to reclaim my victory that I lost in Samoa in 2010. It just felt like the culmination of my legacy. Wow. It's funny that you are one of the best to ever play Survivor. Let's talk about that moment actually because you should have won Heroes vs Villains. You should have won that. Is that something you want to believe? Is that something you do believe? Do you think it's unfair that you didn't win that season? I believe life works in mysterious ways. And I think that's the best game I ever played at that point in time. I played a better game on Heroes vs Villains than I did on Micronesia and I won Micronesia. So Ayrgo, I believe I should have won Heroes vs Villains. But the way that the jury was set up, it was Amanda was on it and we had lost our closeness. Candice was on it from Coke Islands and they'd started on the other side. The jury was not in a place to reward gameplay like they are now. Do you think that part of it though, not to impugn any one person, but you weren't given the credit even in the moment because you're a woman? I think that has a lot to do with it. Because everyone was crediting it to Russell. Even though they had seen, they had watched Russell have no idea what was fucking happening. Multiple times. And yet you were seen as and described as someone who was sort of following or kind of filling a role for Russell. As a battered wife is how Candice described me when she got up and gave her jury speech. She was like, you acted like a battered wife in an abusive relationship and you didn't get out of it. And I was like, that's bullshit because you wanted to work with Russell two days ago before you got blindsided by him. So you saying that to me is incredibly hypocritical, but they wouldn't let me speak at the final tribe. Amanda silenced me. Candice didn't want me to talk. They were like, we don't want to hear you speak because we've already made our minds up. So for me, I was like, yes, it was very much an issue of me being a woman. It was very much an issue of the men already feeling like sort of protective and wanting to defend Eric Reichenbach from the previous season when I destroyed him. It's like, we're going to get revenge on this girl kind of a thing. And then they had also been humiliated. Like JT got play by me by his own letter and his own immunity idol. So he got Eric Reichenbach in Heroes of Valence and JT was really pulling the strings with Amanda and Candice. So those girls were following along what he wanted at that point. And in Ponderosa, it's just, it's like the love, the jungle out there, Ponderosa. They just listened to whoever is the most alpha. Yeah. There was just whatever the personality issues, there was a feeling that because Russell was such an aggressive personality, people could not just instinctively see that he was working for you. Yes. I mean, it was so obvious when he gave me his idol knowing that he was being voted. Like early in the game, he was willing to sacrifice himself for me. And it happened in front of the jury. They watch it happen. You can see his face. He has, because there's another famous moment in that episode where you play a second idol. And it's clear you ran that game. Well, he gave me two idols. Right. I'm saying, because he didn't know you had one. He didn't know I had one. Even before that, before the jury, before the merge, it's either me or Russell that's getting voted out. Russell knows he's on the chopping block. He gets up and plays his idol for me. So I'm like, this guy was willing to die. Yeah. Like he would be out of the game to save me. And people are just like, he's in charge because he's the man. He's the loudest. He's the most aggressive. He was dominating. He was scaring people left and right. And I was like, no, I'm not going to do what you say. I'm going to fact check what you're telling me about Danielle because she's my ride or die over here. And I'm going to talk to her. He's like, don't talk to her. And then I go talk to her and he's lying. And I'm like, okay, you're lying. But I know how to work with people like that. Yeah. It's just like, I talk about it in my book. It's cheap sugar. You just throw him a little cheap sugar. You call him your hero. You give him a hug. Oh my God. I couldn't do it without you. I always thought it was an interesting example of equality versus equity when basically everybody, the men and the women all got one pair of underwear, which was equal, but women were getting a bunch of UTIs. And so women started, they said, this sucks. It's not fair. It's equal, but it's not fair. And that real equity was acknowledging that there's a different outcome based on this equal start. And I'm just, it's interesting having watched you've been with survivor as it kind of faced some of the ways it really was like a microcosm, especially around what it was like for women to play. Like what your reflections are on that. It has evolved so much. Like the way that they produced the show and cast the show is now very different. And yeah, like my season, it was hard. I wrote these stories too, because I just like needed to tell my own story because of what was going on in my personal life after I played survivor. I was slut shamed really bad after I played my first game. And then after Micronesia, although I had never hooked up with anyone in the game, other people were making out with people on the show. I wasn't. I just used my sexuality and flirtatious sort of feminine power, which I'm sorry, but it's truly the only thing we have as women over men. Like that's all we've got. So Riz like, if you can't beat them with these, you can beat them with these, but like men have brains too. I mean, some of them. Yeah, occasionally. You'll find one now and again, Jeff for sure. Well, for me, I'm like, I know that I have this power and I'm going to use it to win this game because winning the game is my number one goal. So people can think of me how they want to think of me. And back then in 2006, 2008, 2010, when the three shows came out pretty much back to back, it was full on like slut shame city where any woman who was confident in her sexuality, who was flirty, who was unapologetic about, you know, being confident and sexy was pushed down, slut shamed, like taking the power away because it was scary for people. And I think with what people saw on Micronesia that that power works to the point of someone making a really dumb move like Eric and then that move following him for the rest of his life, it's like, ooh, this is what can happen if we let women have power and let them work together. And it just really scared people. So I dealt with that in my personal life a lot. In the dating world for me, it was a true shit show. It was. There was like a hangover from the shit. Dark times. Why? What does that look like? What does like people know they know you? What does that mean? I felt like because I had lied and manipulated and hurt my friends and blindsided Ozzy and he was so mad at me and I'd lost my friendship with Amanda, I was like, oh, I'm a bad person. And like, I guess I'm like, what guy is going to want to date a black widow who like brings guys in to get close to her and then betrays them and stabs them in the back. So I was like setting myself up for a failure every time I went on a date. And I was like, I'm not going to date good guys because a good guy wouldn't want to date me. So I started, you know, I started making some pretty rough choices in my dating life that I had to really, once I got divorced, I like really took a hard look at this and I was like, oh, this is me creating this pattern. I want to change this. But I was so scared. I was like, after I got divorced, I was like, oh God, like, I don't know how to date. Like what if I go out in the world and meet someone I think they're good and they're not. And then I make another relationship like I had and I was so scared. Did you overcorrect? No, what happened was I dated like kind of lightly and I was meeting men who were, they fell into two categories. One was emotionally available, very kind, very like fun to talk to, terrible in bed, no chemistry. And then the other one was like great in bed, emotionally stunted. Sure. So I was like, I'll just never be able to find both in a man. So you started dating with that. That's where the women come in. Yeah. A classic story for the other was one. Yeah, I was single when I was 29 and then I was next single when I was 40. So I was never single in my 30s. That was an adjustment. Big one. Woof. Is it better now? Oh, well. Because you know yourself better now. So it's faster. Yeah. I mean, it was very confusing. It was like, I don't remember how to do that. Like, you know, I was like pre-apps. It was just like, I didn't know how to do anything, but it is true that you know yourself better. And that was real. Like that was like, there was real power in that, especially when like I was like single. I'm not single anymore. Thank God I never want to be single again. So that gives you a sense of how much I hated it. Oh my God. So, this is what I wanted to say about Eric. It is true that like kind of, I guess you were flirting and that the four of you were kind of getting Eric to come in flirtatiously. But I almost think maybe one of the reasons it was more threatening is it was sort of almost like playing on his desire, not like sexual, but just like to be a man and to be protective of like, there's like a, like that he's a man. And so he, like the right thing for a man to do is to like sacrifice for women. Totally. The weaker sex. Yeah. And maybe that like, because there was a sweetness to what he did, right? And it wasn't, it didn't seem like cause he wanted to date anybody. I don't know if that's how it felt like. No. And to be clear, not everyone was using the flirtatious strategy. Like that was my go to with specific people, James mostly, but with Eric, Eric didn't really like me. We didn't really gel. So I was like bad cop in that scenario. We just had specific roles to play to get him to give the neck. Truly amazing. I think you're so right with that instinct. And I think you're right with men being like, wait a minute, they, she like, they played him with this thing. Well, like we're trying to be good guys and do the right thing that we've been taught to do since we were kids. And we got screwed and made to look stupid. So yeah, I think there's something even deeper at play there. We're going to hold it there for a second and we will be right back. So what was it like hanging with the Bravo crowd when you were on traders? They are, it's so funny because survivors are very calculated and we automatically assume someone's up to something and the housewives are not. You're just having a good time. They're just like, it's like K.J. Stain. She just wants to like have her cocktail and shoot the shit and enjoy whatever she's doing or complain about it. And they're more color commentators and we're more of like the play by play kind of people. If you're like doing a game analogy, because you need the color people who are like a flare adding flare, but then the survivors are moving the ball down the field. We're like, oh, this is what's happening with the ball. It's going here and there and they're like, what ball? We don't see it. Yeah. Is that like where Sandra is explaining how the numbers might work? With the ball? Being like, no, if we have an alliance, it's maybe okay that there's a trader here. Let me explain why. And it's like, they're like, nope, absolutely not. This game is called Traders. We got to get the trader out. And I'm like, ow, don't. Do you feel like Traders still, Russell was a little bit apart of this. You were a part of this, but like survivor, one thing that was amazing is how players made the game more of change the game and like found depth and nuance and strategy inside of it over time. And then the rules change and everything. It's it evolves together. I feel like Traders still hasn't had that moment where somebody comes in and is like, there are things we can do that haven't been done here before, you know, that hasn't been like, there hasn't been like a villain, like a Russell type to kind of turn Traders on its head. This is my take on Traders is it's so many people, first of all, off the bat. Like it's 21 something players that you have to get to know every single one of them. Survivor, at least you're split into tribes. So you got 10 that you got to get to know. And then the other 10 you're competing against them. So you don't have to worry about them yet. But Traders is like, okay, oh my God, you have to get to know every single person as best as you can right away. And then you have to see how are they casually before we go to the round table and then we claim who the Traders are. So it just moves at lightning speed and everyone's super paranoid. And then there's also this element of it's a show. It's a show. People are making TV for Traders. And the gameplay is sort of kind of secondary because it's really hard to win as a Trader. I think you have to be a full on sociopath. Like you just do, like you have to be able to like cold blooded lie for three weeks straight and not lose your cool and be cutthroat at the round table and redirect the conversation. Like I had a really hard time just living. And I was just like, I just let me live. I just got to get a glass of water and like the bathroom. You sort of developed a look that people talked about. You developed a look on that. It was a kind of like a peering kind of a, was that what was that? It was a squint path. Was it just sort of trying to keep it to get like, is it's like a way to make your face. You're not revealing something. Look, I have no idea where. You don't know where it came from. I don't know. I've been told that I make this look when I'm like deeply listening to people. My mom makes the look, but she makes it in a way that looks a little more judgy. It's like I'm listening, but I'm also judging. And for me, I'm like, I'm listening, but I don't believe you. I don't know what the look was, but it was like, I can sue told me. She's like, are you aware that you make this look when you're thinking? Such a good accent. Really good. Really good. I didn't know, but then they montage the look and I was like, okay. I see it. I get it. I make this, but I also couldn't be myself. Like I was like, clammed up and real tight, which is not, it doesn't feel good for me to do that. I'm usually very warm, very open, very friendly. I want to connect with you and I like bring you into my, you know, enthusiasm bubble. But on Traders, I was like, don't let them get too close. Cause I didn't, I didn't know if I would say the right thing or the wrong thing. And then Peter comes at me and he's like, how do I know you're not a traitor? I'm like, how do I know you're not a traitor? It's a good response. Answer a question with a question. It's so bad. So what, like, do you consider reality TV your career? I mean, I didn't intend to make it my career, but it seems that has become that. There's such a fascination with it and people have come back to Survivor in the last couple of years and it seems like that's in part because it is a microcosm at a time when people feel a little bit disconnected from each other. And I'm like wondering why you think Survivor has remained so interesting to people. Is it the politics of it? Is it the competition of it? Is it the watching people suffer? Like what, what do you think makes people excited about it? I think it's all of that. And I also think it's a nostalgia because people started watching this show in 2000. So now it's been on for 25 years and they have memories of watching it with their parents when they were little and now they're adults and the world is hard and they get to like kind of reconnect with that little kid comfort of sitting with their parents on the couch watching the show. Or they also still have that thread to their parents. Like maybe they've grown up and they've moved across the world and they've lost really a lot of connection with their parents, but they can, they can still watch Survivor. They can still talk about their favorite players. So it does connect people generationally. And it also is like a nostalgia. It's a feeling Survivor gives people a feeling. I know you play three days, so you probably know this feeling. For sure. Very, very embodied feeling. But I have this feeling when I like it's a smell. Survivor is a smell to me. It's like the feeling of damp clothing I put on a sweater today that wasn't fully dry. And I was like, feels like Survivor and I had to take it off. Because I was like, I can't actually wear damp clothes because it feels like that to me. But I know viewers also have that. And then now that I'm out in the world promoting my book and doing these drag shows, I'm meeting a lot of people, a lot of fans, and they tell me stories about what Survivor means to them and how it has given them the confidence to be themselves and come out to their parents or their family. And it's like people's gay awakening a lot of the time. And I'm just like, that's so cool. I think that there are so many reasons why Survivor has stood the test of time. But it's like a primal human experience that we get to watch play out. Yeah, this part of it too, I think like this comes from the show, but also from Jeff, which is it's not ironic. It takes itself seriously. And it's really earnest, right? It's not cynical at all. Like, Jeff is so keyed into it, truly believes in it. And these are a lot of a lot of places where people think, oh, like, you don't have to try that hard or like, or places where it doesn't seem fair and Survivors, of course, can be not fair, but like it rewards people who are willing to like fucking work hard and fight and try. And like, maybe I think there's something to that about like a completely earnest, unironic, direct, we compete, like you get votes, you have to win. Like there's something like missing from our culture now that is like a big part of the nostalgia, like there's something missing from our culture that's like we're a less earnest place. Yeah, I think so. And I think it's there's also that like gritty kind of earthy element to it that you're talking about. That's just we are we're everything's high tech in a cloud. So now you get to watch people feel physical symptoms of hunger. When do you ever have to deal with that? Like very rarely in our privileged society, do we have to deal with that? And not having a roof over your head and being exposed to the elements and watching people go through that is sort of a cathartic experience. I think for the watcher where we can we can feel it a little bit in ourselves. Yeah. Watching other people go through it. Right. There's no right. There's no screens. Well, there was there were a couple of seasons where I was all of a sudden there'd be like T-Mobile. Yeah, T-Mobile product place and for the most part, no screens. All right. I think I had the sprint palm pre palm. Oh, yeah, you did. Wow. That's that's a lot. Wow. Pre yeah. That's a lot. Did social media make going on survivor different, better, worse? Oh, this time for going on Australian survivor. It doesn't really factor in for me for how I play the game. Because I don't think about how I'm going to be perceived afterwards. Like I've really let go of any kind of caring or control over trying to manage anyone else's perception of me. So whoever's going to watch me play is going to have their opinion and I have no, that doesn't matter to me. So when I go out and play, I'm just going to play the one and social media will be what it is afterwards. Yeah. Like when I went and played Traders, I was like, oh my God, can I do this? Cause I just, I'd like just finalized my divorce and I hadn't played anything since 40 and I sucked on 40. So I was like, oh, how am I going to do? And going out and playing, I was like, I did not do well. I didn't think I did well when I played Traders, but then watching the show, I was like, oh, actually did great. Pretty good. And then the, the feedback from the fans was wild love, like big love. And that was such a new experience for me. Cause I'd only had kind of like drips of love and sort of like backlash in real time when I've done a show in the past. So that was really fun. I think the tides have turned with social media for me. I'll get a lot more praise, um, than backlash now. And I think for other people that are new, that are playing, it's very different. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's funny because it's something similar. We, uh, that I think to be good on survivor or Traders or to be a good housewife, part of it is the knowing yourself. So it's a render talked about too, that like, Oh, like I just do what I do. And if you worry about it, you're not being yourself. You're not being authentic. And I do think like, had I had more time, boy, how much fun I could have had. Um, what lessons do you think a good politician can take from a good survivor player? A good politician. Yeah. Like, do you ever see politics unfolding and thinking, Oh, like these people could use a season, they could use some training, some coaching. Yeah. They could certainly use some coaching. I think, yes. Well, first of all, authenticity matters being connected to yourself and your message. And like really actually believing in it is important. So if you want to win your race, like cool, but pick something that you actually care about, yeah, anchor. Yeah. Yeah. And then get out there. And the way to galvanize people is to like really just speak from the heart and don't be afraid to make connections with people. And it's okay to shake up the game. Got to shake up the game. Sometimes you got to shake up the game. Sometimes I do it differently. Don't do it the same way that every other stuffy politician has always done it. Get out there and do something different. Shake it up. Let's have, you know, some cool stuff. Right. It's been pretty dark out there. Which of these politicians do you think would do well on Survivor? Are you ready? Donald Trump. Oh, God. I think he would probably die. I think he would. Throughout the makeup. Yeah. No, he's not one for roughen it. His face would melt off. His skin, is it even real skin? It's like latex. It would just, yeah. So maybe he wouldn't do so well. What about Nancy Pelosi? Nancy Pelosi, I think she would probably do well. We like a strong authoritarian lady. Yeah, that's true. Bring the, bring the, the dom energy. What about AOC? Oh, well, I'm obsessed with her. She would crush. I think she would do well. I think she would do great. She's a threat though. She's a threat. She's a very charming. She is a threat, but sometimes threats can continue to be threats and still make it all stand and win. I've never seen that. I didn't know that that was possible. That was not my experience. That wasn't my experience. Can we, can we roll the clip of, um, you getting voted off? Yeah. No. Let's see. I want you to see. Do you have the tissue? First vote. John. You need to spell my fucking name right. It's just hard to watch. Monica, one vote John. I didn't realize you were going to watch all of it. That was my vote. That was your vote. Disaster. John, three votes. John, what are you feeling right now? So my regret, first person voted out of survival. You're like, no more, no more, no more. I can't take it. I don't even want to hear it. Although I look at that. Wasted that Todd Schneider shirt. I'm the, but you get up. No fanfare. No goodbyes. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Didn't even look at them. I don't think I made a little joke. Trump is spoken. We're in Brighton fast. We're in Brighton fast. Tried something. All right. How did I speak? Like a stick of dynamite. You did give them a goodbye. I waved. I waved. Fuck. I waved. You did. Do you wish you didn't? My regret is so there, I wasn't surprised at all. As you know, like you, they show there's so much talking and trying to figure things out. And I felt like I had like a 20% chance. And my only question was whether I should play my shot in the dark or not. But I wasn't. I, my regret looking back is like, I had this thought of like, I should dump out my bag in front of everybody. Yeah. And take the shot in the dark and go back there. But, you know, it's just, I, I felt like I never got purchased, you know, like I never, like I needed to get through. I told Jeff when I like met him for the first time, like I'm going to go far in this game or I'm going to get out first. And like, that's just my personality. And I just like never, like I needed to get through one vote to just sort of get my C legs. And I just didn't get that chance. Yeah. Hmm. Next time. Playing again. Next time. You burn bright and long. That'll be nice. That'll be nice. Yeah. All right. Now, before we let you go, you are world renowned for the backstab for the blind side. We have some historic political, political backstabs and blind sides we would like for you to review. First up, we have John McCain who surprised everybody by voting to save Obamacare by giving it a thumbs down in the stunned face of Republicans and then President Donald Trump and now president, unfortunately. We have that clip. 129 a.m. Senator McCain reenters the chamber. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell stands at the front of the room like he had most of the night. The grin on his face, though, quickly disappears. Mr. Peters. Senator Bernie Sanders appears to nudge Senator Jean Shaheen as if to say, watch this. So good. McCain waves his hand to get the attention of the Senate clerk, pauses for just a moment and gives a dramatic thumbs down. Boom. Thumbs down. Gas on the Senate floor. That was a real blind side. I love that. That was a real political blind side. Well, this is the other reason why people love Survivor because we are so trained in this kind of game in life. Like we watched that. We're like, oh my God, we love it. It's like getting some like winning something or getting something over on somebody. Yeah, health care. In this case, it was health care. Let's win. Sometimes it's sometimes it's like a sandwich and maybe an idol. But in this case, it was. Something that really, really mattered. It did matter a little. It did matter. I love a blind side like that. Let's do one more, which is this was Ted Cruz at the 2016 Republican Convention. He was speaking because he was meant to endorse Trump. And then he did this. If you love our country and love your children as much as I know that you do, stand and speak and vote your conscience, vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom. Got good. Faithful to the Constitution. Wow. It was, I would say, the only act of political courage in his life. Yes. And he did. He did a recant soon after. Yes. He said, my conscience tells me what's to everything we can to stop Hillary Clinton. So he did backtrack on it, but it was pretty good. That was that's an intense backstab on the floor of the Republican Convention. I love a good backstab. God, especially when there's a huge live audience. Oh, yeah. And you know, the feeling that he has when he's saying it, he's like, oh, I'm the most badass dude in the joint. And then afterwards he's like, shoot, I have a courage hangover. Did you ever have any do you ever have any courage hangovers in a blind sign? Um, well, I I always felt like a little bit like, oops, like I'm going to have to do damage control, like after we blindsided Ozzy and then I had to deal with James. And then after I played the double idols, I played one of Russell's idols and he wasn't aware and I stole his thunder. And then I had to deal with Russell after that. Those moments were like, oopsies. Ever done a blind side in the world? Um, in the real actual non-survivor world. Probably like I would really have to dig into the archives of my brain for that. But I'm sure I have like I do a lot of stuff. So possibly most likely I have. I don't know what. Yeah. I like that. I like that. Dating women, you're going to stick with it? Um, you don't answer that answer. Thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun. It was so good to talk to you. So much. Thank you. If you're already scrolling endlessly, which we know you are, don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and all the other ones for original content, community events and more. You can also find Love It or Leave It on YouTube for videos of your favorite segments and other YouTube exclusive content. And if you want to sing our praises or rip us a new one, please drop us a review. Finally, if you want to listen to Love It or Leave It, add free and get access to exclusive shows, go to Crooked.com slash Friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcast, wherever you are, you can find us. Love It or Leave It is a Crooked Media production. 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