1147: What is going on with LIV Golf?

The right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the no laying up podcast emergency live edition brought to you as always by our friends at titleist, Solly here joined by a couple of my colleagues where I'm going to guest here shortly from the left to right or right to left as you're looking at it. Mr. DJ pie. Hello pie man. Hello, Solly. Good to be doing a podcast. You know, having time to watch you guys in a while. It's good to be with you. Does not stop at Carito. Neil Schuster still basking in the glory of his round of Augusta national just two days ago. Somehow. Sure. Put the kids to bed. Let's talk force. Major palace intrigue fired up gentlemen. Good evening. Man, what a 24 hours it has been. We're going to go through the timeline of things. I think I think I thought the show tonight was going to be different than I think it is now going to be with some reaction from live golf and some statements that have come out this evening. We are going to go through everything that has happened this past day. The reaction to that the reaction to the reaction. We're going to bring some bring bring guests in to help break that down and we were probably going to speculate a little bit on this pot as well but we're going to do our absolute best to paint that into into special corners and make it very clear that we are just speculating here but D.G. Do you want where do you want to start with with what has happened in the last 24 hours and where we stand now as we record this 904 p.m. Eastern time on Wednesday, April 15th. Happy birthday to my wife. By the way, this was made for a very tricky birthday. Tax day. Maybe they just had a fat tax. Oh, we've got to pay the estimates on. Sorry. Sorry, Sergio. We can't can't help you. Yeah, sorry. Let me let me run it down. Let's why don't we do just a little bit of what did what did we know? When did we know it? I think it's kind of the place to start because it's a lot of info. I think there's a lot of people probably getting home from work just like wait, what the hell is going on? I get a news alert email from the New York Times that that live is done. That's not exactly true. It's just a lot. There was a lot. It wasn't breaking. I did get an email breaking news. Oh, I know. I mean, they get a little loose with it, but it's not quite the, you know, cable news breaking news. You know, they're a little bit more real about the breaking news. That's interesting. Sorry, D.H. Go ahead. Yeah, I got you. I think like most like most stories, we're going to start on a Twitter spaces by the takes men is I think where this story originates. Ryan French Monday Q info golf Twitter staple. There was a lot of rumblings going around about this last night. It was kind of, you know, you'd look down and see a text from like a, Hey, did you hear this? I don't know. Did you hear this? Are we talking about the same thing? Sort of thing. Ryan French was the first one to go public with it last night. He said, quote, I've heard from multiple sources that a bombshell announcement on Liv's future is imminent. He would go on the aforementioned Twitter spaces to clarify and say that, you know, basically he's got very good sources and he's hearing that Liv is shutting down. I've got everything from these people. You know, these are from people that I trust. You guys know that players didn't get paid today. The power went out because the bill wasn't paid. Employees didn't get paid stuff like that. There's a lot going on. Things are not good. It's a submission of part of that. Again, some of this is useful. Some of it is very stupid. Anthony Kim tweets out just a mind blown emoji late last night, maybe related, maybe not. Maybe he's watching sports. Who knows? I saw Harold Varner's tweet and that this is crazy. Like, but I think that was about the Hornets, you know, it's just kind of a, it's one of those, it feels like NBA free agency day sort of thing, you know, like, wait, what, is that in reference to, what's that emoji mean? You know, it's kind of one of, kind of one of those things, but as far as getting back into the news, like this morning, I think the next notable thing that happened, James Corrigan from the Telegraph reports that live golf executives have been summoned to New York City for an emergency meeting. A lot of them were not on site in Mexico City yesterday. This is a picture that they used here. Great. Don't leave me. Please. Great photo. This of course coincides with Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund announcing a new five year strategy on Wednesday. As the New York Times wrote, the funds governor said that it would quote slow down some of its biggest projects as it focuses on internal quote increasing the efficiency of investments. Saudi officials have also said they were looking to reevaluate some of their priorities as they look forward to hosting the world expo in 2030, the men's soccer world cup in 2034. We of course know what happened to our beloved line city in Neome and how that's built back. I know. So I do think, you know, I'm not an accountant, but if there's probably a couple dollars to be shaved from lift off, if this is the strategy, I'm gonna get a little bit where I think some of this hit in the gas came from. You know what, Dij, I am going to lean a little bit on my accountancy degree in my CPA to say I am an accountant. And I think there probably is a few dollars they could have saved on this. One thing to note print that far away vision 2030 felt when this started. And now it's kind of pretty soon guys. After that, we've got the Financial Times reporting that the public investment fund is on the verge of cutting support for live golf with an announcement coming as soon as Thursday, potentially. This, I think gave a lot of other people licensed to just kind of keep going. Rex Hoggard, you know, the golf channel broke in midday. Rex Hoggard from, from Hilton head was reporting that he's spoken to players and vendors who hadn't gotten paid for the last few weeks over at the Wall Street Journal. We had Andrew beaten. Finally, another report saying live is facing the possibility of imminent closure. His report wasn't quite as time specific and offered a little bit of a caveat. Said exactly when live might close wasn't immediately clear as the Saudis way to decision. There were no guarantees that live would fold completely as discussions could change. Still kind of a, you know, things are up in the air. After that, the New York Times files a report that PIF is on the verge of an announcement with it with, with of its withdrawal of financial support. The athletic kind of New York Times adjacent reports that the leadership team was first told on Sunday that they would soon lose their positions. Many of them already moving so far and so fast as to start, you know, seeking out other positions golf digest. Who could believe those guys had a, had a report that live leadership was looking for alternative funding for the league. But so far coming up empty. That's a joke. We're going to be joined by Joel, Joel Beal in just a second here. All of that is against the backdrop that live golf has an event that's supposed to be getting underway tomorrow in Mexico city. Yesterday, as we're recording this on Tuesday, we had press conferences, press conferences that were canceled. The media center was closed for what was later attributed to a power outage on Wednesday. The league had a press conference with the fireballs where Sergio said the players had not been informed of any new information or developments. And the program went on as scheduled. Should I pause there for a sec? Laura Loomer tweeted as well. I was going to say Laura Loomer started bucking on Twitter. You got, you know, cancel Christmas, Dige. That's exactly right. She said, Saudi Pif has reportedly just pulled all of its funding for live golf. Like the tournament tomorrow will likely not take place in Mexico. Live golf might be finished. I believe that it would be later countered and that is still exists. That is part of the day unfolding of news here today. Yeah. Let me get to some of that other stuff that then happened. I felt like everybody kind of took, you know, maybe a two hour break and then clocked back in and hit it after that. Jeff Darlington ESPN reported that live CEO Scott O'Neill sent out an email to the live golf staff kind of in the wake of some of the rumors about the league's future. This is an excerpt from, from that email quote, I want to be crystal clear. Our season continues exactly as planned uninterrupted and at full throttle. While the media landscape is often filled with speculation, our reality is defined by the work we do on the grass. We're heading into the heart of our 2026 schedule with the full energy of an organization that is bigger, louder and more influential than ever. Just a little bit of a, you know, you can relate to some of this. I'm sure the life of a startup movement is often defined by these movement, these moments of pressure. We signed up for this because we believe in disrupting the status quo. We faced headwind since the jump and we've answered every time with resilience and grace grace. Now we answer by doing what we do best, putting on the most compelling show in sports. He also said the noise you hear is simply the sound of a movement that is working. Embrace it. We are pioneers and while the road isn't always smooth, the destination is worth every mile lives. Mexico City event is scheduled to tee off tomorrow at 1 15 p.m. He also signed it on Wednesday. He signed it off saying let's go out and show the world why live golf is the future of the game. It matters. You mattered. Now let's go win. That's it. He almost stuck the landing there. Yeah, some, some tense. Some past tense. Okay. That's interesting. Just a couple other ones before we get to our guest here. Evan Priest said, I've spoken with live sources with knowledge of operations, funding and operations will continue for 2026. There is no change. Chris Heck and Scott Scott O'Neill are both on site in Mexico and then Brett bear noted, noted golf enthusiast. And graduate of the Marist school. That's right. Got to shout that out alumni club with Neil basically came on Fox news and said, said something very similar said, you know, two sources that I know know the inner workings of the decision. Tell me the Saudis will fund live golf events through the end of the season, which means the contracts, TV deals, tournament venues. They will all remain funded. All other decisions about unwinding live or merging it with other tours will follow that. But sources say the Saudi funding will definitely come to an end at the end of this live season, citing a change of priorities. So just to recap, it was, it was a big, everything is stopping immediately. It kind of seems like it's morphed into a fairly accepted. Everything is stopping at some point, but we are continuing for the near future. Is that how you guys understand it? Yeah. 2026 is not 2030. That's how I understand it. Yeah. Yeah. Scott O'Neill's statement does not include, you know, he was saying as of last week in Augusta that they're funded through the year 2032. His statement to everyone did not include that same phrasing here today. There's so much smoke here and we're going to bring Joel in here shortly to help break some of this down as well. But like there, there, this wasn't just like crazy off the wall. You're wrong reporting going on today. I think there was a lot of like seeing through the smoke, trying to figure out what it actually literally meant. I, I, originally I was like, man, I did, I started dropping in the middle of a season would be wild. Like Mexico not happening would be a very wild exit, but also I was thinking just like, isn't it also weird to kind of play out the rest of like a lane? Like, I think we're going to be in the duck season and we can, we can break some of that down, but it's now a good time to bring, bring in our players. Let's do it. Before we start speculating, I feel like we can get as many facts and as many good analysis in on this before we do our normal thing. But Joel Beale from Golf Digest. Welcome. And how was your day today? Interesting. Yeah. It started, started around four o'clock yesterday. And I think this is good background for folks to know because the Masters hands down is the most gossipy event of the year. Like you have fewer. Oh yeah. Desperately want to act like they're in the know. So they try to turn every little thing they know into like a salacious tidbit. It's kind of charming, but also really gross. Coming off the heels of the gusset, this is something that just went, you know, went south. Like it was just a couple of years ago, right? When we were at heritage and people thought Rory was going to live. So I thought it was kind of in that same vein, but I sent a few feel it out just to be sure. And within the first like two hours, and then I had like 60 texts and a half a dozen phone calls and became pretty clear that this wasn't just a game of telephone. And when some of this happens, you, you're not running with one or two sources. The fallout for getting this wrong could stick with someone forever. Right. I want to say that because I think you've had a good point. There's so much smoke out there, especially now in the as hours have passed, people are wondering it was just was everyone just kind of running with something. And I think we know enough now it's not the case. And I want to actually shout out one one group that I think it did it right, which as you mentioned earlier, the athletic kids riders, Brennan Quinn Brody Miller, Gaby Herzig, they broke this down from multiple angles, including that the live executives were told at the masters that their jobs are going to be eliminated. And I can tell you as colleagues and friends, like they had a lot of voices in that, all of which had authority. This wasn't just real rumors. And then just as importantly, separately, the New York Times, which owns the athletic, but those in the like the newsrooms don't connect. It's really frustrating if you're involved. They did their own piece from like the business and news side. And it's clear that unlike the athletic these were more golf sources. So I'm, I'm sure it's very frustrating if the athletic counterpoint at the same time. The fact that they ended up at the same point kind of shows this isn't just one person in a rumor went wrong. Like this is coming from a lot of different places. And everyone is kind of coming to the same point that the end is near. And it's just kind of a matter of when. Did you notice anything, I guess from Scott, like again, I went to started doing bedtime with my kids and came back to a totally different world of like, oh, we're playing tomorrow. Everything's fine here. We're good here. Anything to read between the lines you think in kind of what live statements sounded like or Scott O'Neill statements sounded like versus, you know, again, I came back to all the bots right back in my mentions when I like three hours earlier, I thought we were done with this world. And are they going to keep this facade up, I guess for the remainder of the year, do you think that like this thing is still business as usual? Oh yeah, and the two biggest indictments, I think came from a Neil one was yesterday for whatever you want to say about Neil he's extremely good on communication with his team both players, agents, everyone on staff. It was radio silence yesterday for most of the day. And I think that is what spooked a lot of people and that's when you start to see stuff start to come out last night because once, once he wasn't getting back, I think that was the first time someone was up. And then that email that O'Neill sent to staff this night, I think on the surface it seemed like a rebuttal when I think it actually signaled the opposite because the focus was as you mentioned solid just 2026 not the future. And instead of saying the reports for bogus which it seemed like he started to go with that. Instead he played the, you know, startups are defined by moments of pressure, which again incredible they keep referring themselves as a startup. I think couple with the most important part to me honestly was the, as you mentioned, the switch and PIF strategy going domestic, you know, they're stopping the funding of these global vanity projects. The live is definitely a very visible casualty of that. The fact that they've now struck out three of the last four off seasons. That's definitely sticking with them obviously a big aberration Iran but it was an aberration. This all happened this vision was already in place before the Iran war started and that conflict has just accelerated everything, especially with all what's going on the streets on the oil closures. Suddenly, you know, the financial cushion for live evaporated within a month. I have no choice but to laugh at just straight from like the massive global implications going on around this did did any, I guess, was there any reporting involved in this that, you know, as you're, you're, you're the journalist here right anything that did go wrong in the process here of how this was reported by anyone in particular anything that stick out to you to say, you know, it felt like there's a wave there for like an hour of oh man all of this reporting was wrong but if you actually sift through it it's like well wait a second here this actually checks out if you go back through this I'm curious if you had a similar reaction. Yeah, I think a lot of people took, you know, announcement is imminent to mean live is done without, you know, obviously there is a correlation between funding's been cut off to live deceased. I think somewhere in earlier today and then just very reports just kind of got co less together all of a sudden it was live was ending this week. You know, from the start it sounded like the earliest that anything could happen was in weeks and then suddenly this guy accelerated to possibly today is the earliest. But even then though I think that was more like there was no individual report at least actual journalists you know the aggregation I think is where maybe this gone wrong a little bit but I think the wording was actually pretty solid all the way around from everybody and again just to get people a little background on a story this big you usually have a legal team involved to make sure you know because live has proved to be litigious not only with pj tour but sometimes behind the scenes, you can't get someone like this wrong so knowing that the people who have reported this or this and at least we're journalists. I don't think they got anything wrong and what what live is kind of put out that business is usual I don't think that I don't think that has any type of conflict with what was already reported. Well, I'm curious, you know, you wrote a book last year right about kind of golf civil war and how you know some other things that fit into it and you've done a lot of reporting on live in general I'm wondering if you could just characterize what it's what that's been like at this stage in the proceedings because I feel like we're so focused on the pj tour and I feel like such an outsider trying to report on any of that stuff just because I haven't really been to the events I don't know a ton of the people involved I'm just curious what it's what it's been like for you. Particularly in comparison to the rest of pro golf. Yeah, I think the one thing that kind of sticks out and I think it's lost in our least golf coverage that is kind of the whole spine of the story is that it's a soft power exercise live golf already accomplished its mission you know before live announced a single player sign they had already locked up. Donald Trump's bed and his courses of venue and you know within a month the row got added to that and then next year a third property in DC I believe was added so you know they basically built their tour schedule on this one guy's real safe portfolio. It wasn't really nuanced right and it was because the Saudi looked at Trump after he lost it 2020 which I think is important and calculate that he was still very valuable asset worth cultivating you know he won't logistic legitimacy and professional golf at the time you know it's remember it wasn't after 2020 after the January 6 you know the PJ dropped them all the other five families want to know for five was one any part of him. He was looking for anything he'd get and Saudi Arabia gave him that it. Meanwhile Saudi Arabia kind of needed the political cover in America to make this work it was a clean trade. You know they also did so he's did the calculus that if Trump did return to power all of a sudden a pretty solid relationship they had with him in his first term probably be a lot better in the second go around and I think you've seen that with some of the Saudi. US relations and especially the investment endeavors. So when you're trying to understand why would it existed. I know we we've used those terms sports watching a lot and kind of pointing to other things but like you're wondering why they spent $5 billion and why they kept hemorrhaging money. You know you have to hold all that in context because this was never purely a golf investment. It was a relationship investment and now that that money has started run out and that the geopolitics and dramatically shifted you're not only in the Middle East but you know our political landscape. I think you're now starting to see you in the transaction is no longer worth making and that you know has a little bit to do with what you're seeing right now of why this is a sudden about Facebook with golf. Joe one question for you on that because I agree with everything you just said but if that's the case this is such a sloppy exit and that you say like they've accomplished everything they want to accomplish it but if it is a brand exercise it's like man get the exit the last impressions important. Is there any truth to I saw I've seen it swirling around but not from maybe any credible sources about are they trying to use a force measure clause or like because otherwise you think they would let's play it out to the end of the season and they'd have the messaging like I just this all feels a little rushed and sloppy right now and I'm curious if you have any insight on that. It's definitely rushed you have to remember this wasn't coming directly from them though right I mean this this honestly started with Ryan French and if that if right doesn't come out initially last year. I mean I think it's like the last night with his tweet there's a chance live can bring this to the table in their own terms not granted a lot of other stuff was percolating but like you needed the spark there and run provided that so they kind of lost control the narrative. I agree that sloppy there's also not a really good way to exit this right like there's it's hard to it's hard to claim success if you're ending this now especially with Brooks leaving with read leaving the fact that the the shambles negotiations have been a nightmare by all accounts like this wasn't going to end well. So I agree with you it's it's it's coming off really bad I just can't really envision a way that would come off great either. On that timeline though I mean I guess we were kind of all hearing that this was the talk of kind of golf behind the scenes as of like there was something happening prior to that tweet going out that is what I think seems to be the sloppy part right of there's something percolating under there that I think to Neil's question was the wouldn't this make more sense to do in the off season if it's not. It was going to be a plug pull that's where I'm like yeah I said earlier but just was kind of back and forth on like it something has to be dramatically wrong for them to pull the plug mid season but now I think we're also. I might ask you to speculate a little bit on this part but if I'm if I'm a live golf player right now and I'm just like straight up if I'm John Rom or Bryson and I'm saying this league might not exist next year as it stands right now based on a lot of reporting. The more I play out this schedule the longer my suspension is going to go from my chance to return to the PGA tour. Yes I'm going to get paid quite handsomely to stay but are we in a situation now where we have this kind of lame duck year that what what other than the immediate payments that these guys are going to play for in the next eight events. What is the reasoning for these guys to want to tee it up and still kind of tote the party line. I think you just hit it. I believe Brex at golf channel mentioned that a few players even considering not showing up tomorrow because if they are the you know it is worth saying that the Patrick Reed one year suspension is not just like the paradigm like there are a couple of suspension out there that could be multi year but assuming that at worst the guys have one year all sudden if you don't play tomorrow your timeline starts you know next next March rather than having another month and not coming back to after the Masters. We usually see that happens the case I don't doubt those conversations are happening I just have a hard time right now seeing that come to fruition. But yeah I'm with you in the time I think it's also worth mentioning though that like if leadership truly feels like they're about to exit. They're making calls already to find their next job and I think that's partially I know I know personally one of my sources that's how I found out was through an executive who was already looking about so without knowing other reporters have kind of gone through who they've called or what doors they've knocked on. I imagine some of those sources are probably double crossed at some point but yeah it's it's a sinking ship right like once people are looking out for me if there's been one through on the last five years it's that people are only look out for themselves and professional golf unfortunately I think that applies to yourself. Yeah it's definitely sloppy it's not coordinated but if people are trying to get off like horses not going to be coordinated. Joel let you let you get out of here but I'm curious kind of what what happens next in your mind what's your what are you looking for as far as you know next next info next shoe to drop what's the you know do you do envision this being something that happens. You know we get a bunch more info in the next 24 hours or is this feel like more of a let's just play out the next eight weeks you know. The next week you will see some sort of announcement from Jeff maybe talking about transition that they're pulling funding but they still support live and you'll see some type of statement from live saying they're looking at our investment from what we have been told that is actually like going I want to say well but like they are like it's good thing to note about O'Neill is that he had 15 years experience in the NBA in New York and Philadelphia and that's didn't fill he also crossover in the NHL. There's a pretty substantial New York Wall Street stable he's built with this time at Massesburg garden he also has relationships with Josh Herring David Blitzer and those two guys along the price with the bill with live so far nothing substantial on there and but like he also hasn't been given a hard nose I'm told either. I think the next move for him it starts look internationally. You know people put this up a money to foot live they're not dumb you know they see live for what it is and you just importantly what it hasn't been. But this isn't just because if pulls out there's going to be still a little bit of runway for live to see if it can get someone else in. I don't see that happening but I don't think you're going to see just because pit pulls out live is immediately done. So I think we're going to have this kind of low long burn over the next couple weeks by the next shoot a drop will be officially pulling out of future funding. Do you think there is any sorry we fall started you know this is my last question but is there any any other off ramp with PIF and live combined in terms of transitioning to something with the DP World Tour or the Asian tour or you know. You know this this live thing may not be you know going the distance here but PIF clearly wants to be involved with golf. I would imagine that would would continue but I'm curious if you see how you kind of see things unwinding potentially speculation I know I'm asking here. I think since that White House meeting went south last spring the DP World Tour has been the biggest wild card in all this because it's no secret they're not exactly happy how the strategic alliance has played out. They want more events on European soil. They want to stop being looked at as a feeder circuit or I mean at this point they a lot of you will be them as the third league in the world. They want something from the PGA tour and more than just you know fiscal help. Given they're the ones that allowed Saudi Arabia into this ecosystem in the first place and I hate every time you use the ecosystem but that's that's unfortunately the nomenclature that we use but I still think it's not impossible. Guy Kennings and I'm sorry I'm the other thing to work on Guy Kennings is not he is very aware what his membership feels like that they turned down that PIF money years ago only see that PIF money the PGA tour try to partner with that PIF money. He knows it's an easier sell out to his membership if it ultimately helps the tour. And I think the reason that's important is under a rollout I think there is going to be a push to bring the European tour more into the fold have more synergy between the two circuits. If that doesn't happen PGA tour very much understands that DP World Tour can go knocking on the side door and bring them in. I think that's important is if that PGA DP World Tour stuff doesn't come from a question it would be kind of foolish to say Saudi Arabia is just out. So that's something to keep an eye on from everything I understand I think Guy does want to work with the PGA tour but ultimately he is beholden to his players and he knows how they feel after the last administration kind of did them wrong. So I think that's the kind of if you're looking for any type of machinations down the road that's want to keep an eye on. Very very very interesting Joel this was fantastic really appreciate you jumping on late. I know you're in a good mood because our Reds want tonight but thank you for for spending some time with us and we'll definitely be consulting you in the future on all this stuff. And I want to say no more speed columns. That was it was that was that was mean spirited man giving up on Jordan speed. I got some really really meaning. Not for me not for me. So I did have to point out I got this in the mail yesterday from someone. Someone sent a Joey Vado is Jesus. Behind me. The pod probably sacred religious but only one of those guys had a 400 o bp so I think we're gonna allow it. I think he's just a doctor back there but anyways thank you Joel for joining us greatly appreciate it. Have a good evening. I want to give a shout out to our friends at row back it is outerwear sz and DJ just told me that he just got the Delta Looper pants which kind of just melted my brain. So we've been talking about I've just been wearing shorts all winter. We've probably I got a new pair actually right here sitting kind of a brownish color. I got the new performance crew as well just came in the mail. This was the first thing I put on this morning so I want to give a shout out to them. They got the Fulton performance vest. We've talked a lot about that they've gotten the Brookline vest is the new lightweight one. They have the Highlands hoodie. They've got so many great options row back dot com. You can filter through you know you can flip through all kinds of amazing stuff that they make they make great polos make great hoodies make great pullovers crew next you name it shorts pants row back dot com. RHO BACK dot com you can use code NLU get you 20% off your first order through the end of this week polos hoodies shorts whatever you need rowbacks got you covered row back dot com code NLU 20% off. I was you know again that was super informative. Nice to bring a professional in here. I learned a lot there. I think it's also crazy in today's golf world you got to be like able to break down what it like the the blockade on the straight up our moves means and also like explain like Rory's draw he hit off the pine. It's in that way since we were breaking down congressional hearings two years ago man. I mean this is like this is it. One thing can I say one thing that really stuck out to me him calling up Blitzer and Josh Harris those guys are already getting into golf with this source golf play. It's a like multi channel network that they've taken over like they're gonna be running ads for Bryson's YouTube channel. So that was a really good call out of like OK I've already heard about these guys getting into the YouTube golf space I could see live the DP world thing is obviously like OK that makes the most sense but then you think about it. I'm speculating here it's like you know does does this turn into Bryson bring in a few of the boys along for the time being to you know make breaking 50 videos. You know why would you just want Bryson like is that a take like I think the Bryson contract plays here right. I mean we is contracted up at the end of this year. It's got eight more events left like there you know do you do you ride this thing. It's a huge decision and commitment they need to make as to whether or not they're going to offer him what 400 million 500 million. It's going to be more than wrong. Got in the last one and like do you commit that plus on top of what else all the other contracts you'll need to kind of extend there for all of that. If I was this again speculation but if I had to guess as to why this is breaking down right now it's that Bryson's probably pushing the issue a little bit and they can't wait until the end of the year to do all the negotiating figure out and let him hold them hostage and stretch all this thing all the way out like their long term planning is really hard to do without Bryson and I would have to imagine that has to be playing a factor in this. And that's why I asked about the force measure thing because I'm sitting here the last couple hours trying to think like why is this why now and it's like are they trying to you know use this war as a chance to get out of contracts but then like that gets so messy because they're obviously going to get sued. Rob's looking for the other half of his payment now we got depositions I mean that talk about a soap opera. It's just sloppy man if this whole thing was you know to. Make the Saudis look like good on the world stage like this is the it's like you just did you're not sticking the landing here I guess is what I'm saying when people are like oh they already accomplished what they want to accomplish like no you got to stick the landing if you want to accomplish that. They're hitting the shots though. They are hitting shots. You're damn right about that. But if you had raised Greek with their their hit the shots they're going after the they compress the golf ball for sure. That's right. I did get a kick a kick out of John Nucci's tweet to set today said if live folds abruptly as reports indicate the good news is the players can file breach of contract claims against the Saudi public investment fund in the courts of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Yeah. I mean as well as if you're you know if you're packing up ship you're you know packing up shop and you're you're still owed half your contract like I just man I don't know how that looks and all the contracts got to be different based on how you know guys came into the league. There's it just feels like such a hornet's nest of of mess to try to suss out if things are to pack up. I have I have reason to believe and again this is just based on probably two people that I've spoken to at the time like roms all roms deal is not all in cash. I think there is if this thing folds at the end of this year there would be money left on the table from roms perspective. If it was a six year deal this is what his third full year on live and he's got it. He's got upfront signing bonus and made a ton there but he would not be realizing we don't know what the full value of his contract is. But I think he would be he would not be realizing anything of in the signing bonus portion of the remainder of the three years on his contract. Yeah. He's realized a lot of cash on the golf course already. I was pulling Cody. I don't know if you had this pulled up or not. But we had the like I was just curious like the career money leaders is like to your to your point. So it's like well are people going to stick around? What are they doing? And then you remember like man they're they're playing for $30 million every week is like is pretty well. But yeah, roms made $87.6 million on the golf course. Not counting any bonuses. Not counting any bonus walking even second at 71.6 followed by the great man Taylor Gooch 68. This is all on live. This is all on live. Yeah. Yeah. Which I believe is probably on court like individual and team bonuses and but like Sally said, not even signing bonuses. So it's yeah, I don't know. And then you get into the whole question. This is speculation corner obviously, but it's you know, the the PGA tour just kind of pulled the the returning member program out of their butts. Right. I mean, they can certainly drop another one of those if they want and pick who they want to come back and man what happens to those other guys? What is Thomas D tree and Ben on who just joined live this year and it played the lasso six events lasso skip the masters to go play this. It's just a yeah, man. I don't know. I get a kick out of just backing up. You read through all this the sources on this right because the the internet's on fire palace intrigue. But when when someone like Brett bear weighs in, it's like no upside for Brett bear to, you know, Laura Loom or something. Right. She's you know, she just has to hit once out of 100. But Brett bear it's like, yeah, he's probably got some source on geopolitics. It's like, oh, yeah, this shit's done. And he's just like, yeah, I'm just yeah, I'm yeah, I know this is so solid. Like, but when the non golf, you know, but like real media comes out with something like this, it's it's just like, oh, God, that's that to me was like a nail in the coffin. Yeah, there's absolutely no upside for him to speculate. He would just stay away from it if it wasn't super solid. That's what I think. Yeah, which I think Joel said that too, but that's what's so interesting about like the two sides of the New York Times, the people who are like reporting on the PIF mission update coming to the same conclusion is, you know, Gabby and Brody and and Brendan Quinn and all these people that cover the PJ tour every week. It's just a yeah, I think that's where it got real real smoky. I forget what I was going to say. Oh, yeah. Today, like the journey of like news in in 2026, it was like preparing for tonight. It was like, okay, we got the Financial Times. We got the New York Times. We got the athletic golf channels saying this, but also this guy on Twitter that used to have like a live account that changed his name to something else, something different is saying something different. And my brain is corrupted. I'm like, he might be right. Maybe maybe the correct media is wrong about all this stuff. Like I could see how people end up in these horrible spots where you don't know who to trust. But the more the much more likely reality is that one time one side is telling you maybe not the full story. I just think back a week ago, guys, I was on a flight to Augusta literally last Tuesday at a Newark and there were five live golf team members all wearing matching quarter zips flying down to Augusta. And I was like, oh, the whole squad's coming. I was like, that's kind of lame. They're all wearing the matching quarter zips. But like, okay, that they're coming down in force. It's just, it's just crazy how quickly that, you know, a week later, it's like those guys are all, you know, unfortunate for them looking for jobs. Probably good. Good week for Rory. Yeah. When in the Masters and then maybe just having a glass of wine and watching watching Twitter all day today. Man, I just it's bad week for Yasser. It just it feels like this one's coming in from above them. Because I mean, really dug his heels in. It's hard to believe he'd be like, okay, let's get out real quick. Like that's where the sloppy thing comes in. It just it's like, God, he staked his whole reputation on, you know, this golf league and I haven't heard from him. I don't know. It's just interesting. Which again, we don't have to do the macro live conversation tonight, but like everything Joel broke down for us tonight spoke to the goal and the purpose of live golf. Like, it's not about growing. We knew all of this. We've said this for four years. None of this needs to be said, but like we're also yelled at online for four years that we're wrong about all this stuff. Like there's no public interest in this league. It doesn't make any sense financially. It's not even close. It's not growing the game. It fractured professional golf. Like all of that is as was as true in 2022 as it is today. And just like you're waiting this whole thing out to be like, yeah, whenever it would either take a change in leadership at Yossers position, you know, a change in leadership of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, or like a change in investment plan to start unwinding this thing. It would have nothing to do with the success or failure of the league because the league has been a failure. Like we've known all of that. So it's been the weirdest and hardest thing to cover this just it just on this mission, lighting this money on fire. Everyone thought this is going to continue forever. It's great. It's a success. They have endless pile of money when it's like the public interest isn't there. And it were the PGA tour and professional golf in a very different spot than it was say two years ago when I felt like there was nothing but negative momentum. I think the PGA tour is definitely turned around a lot of the momentum to say. I just don't know. Combining all of that with being up against these contract extensions and this timeline makes sense for this league to deteriorate by the end of this year. Like it would take such a monumental, another round of investment to extend and continue all of this with guys that are just aging, like not even recruiting new talent in like guys that are aging and Bryson and Rahm. That's really all it is. I mean, I think if I'm remembering right didn't Scott O'Neill say in an interview fairly recently that it was going to take another five to 10 years for the league to be profitable. Like that's the biggest, the biggest cheerleader of the league saying like, oh yeah, we still got another decade and then we're going to be dialed. Which to your point is like, man, it's going to again, they're playing for $30 million a week. Like that's that's a lot of 10 years more of right. That's what I'm like. If you, if you want to take the most optimistic point of view and say that that's true, it's like, you know, it takes so much money to even get there. Man, that's, that's insane. And not to mention the concerts that you're putting on the day of the tournament to get all the people to attend there just so you can keep up appearances for this thing. And I, I, I hit to the chainsmokers pocket. This thing goes away. I'll tell you that. Uh, yeah, I guess, I don't know, maybe was the path to profitability. These things becoming billion dollar franchises. Like they also said out loud, like not very long ago, like within the last calendar year have said, you know, we want $13 billion franchises. It was as laughable today as it was then. Yeah. The CLEAKS streetwear lineup, spring collections dropping next week. Joel said a lot of really interesting stuff. And chiefly among it was the kind of does an internet, another international interest come in to try to make this thing work. I do think about like the, you know, making assumptions speculating, like if, if it's about to be sold for parts, like what does that look like? Because you can't deny that the Australia stuff and the South Africa stuff, like there's some, there is something real there. And it's hard to suss out how much of that is because of Bryson, how much of that is almost a contrarianism. Like we'll show you, you don't think anybody's going to show up or we're going to go do this. Uh, I don't know if you can salvage that with a scaled back league or something. Like if you lose Bryson, can you still keep something from this to, to keep it going? Like he was, we'll have to think about it more, but I thought he did a good job of at least, you know, starting some new, some new. Lines of thinking there. I got to think that if another international or outside interest, like if it is, you know, Blitzer and Harris or somebody like that comes in, they're going to want to work with the powers that be. It's going to be less spit in your face, give us world ranking points, but we're not going to play by your rules. And it's going to be a lot more like, okay, let's, let's maybe fold into the, I don't know, current, the ecosystem is. Yeah. It's just, I think it still requires, it's a broken model. Like it still requires just a buyer, this like looking to light money on fire. Like that's why the whole thing always ladders up to sports washing. And it's not been fun to talk about and not been a phrase, a fun phrase to use four years into this, but none of that has changed. Like that's still the reason why they're doing this. Like I don't think like the Norwegians are coming in to buy this thing up. If the Saudis give it up because they're much smarter with their investments. They're much more, much more prudent with their investments. They're not looking to sports wash their image. They have a good image in front of the world. Like I don't know. You got to shell out 30 million bucks to the players every single week. Oh, Nick, Nick like Tangren make them all come on his podcast. That's true. Exactly. Norwegian sovereign wealth. And you don't have that's the only thing I need from you. You don't have the talent of the top guys unless you shell out ungodly amounts of money, outsized amounts of money to like, there is a market for golf and then there's an irrational market for it. Like all of these things are coming to a head today. All these things we've been saying for, for four years are coming to a head today is not the day that we dance on the grave and then we, we look back at all the comments and pieces over the, we will do that someday. Assuming this league does close. Flash mob on the grave. We have files. We have solid just wants to get, get in that on that coffin in that meme. Today is not that day, but it certainly looks like we're like we're headed that way. So what is, what is the, is a PGA tour do anything? Or do they let it, let it play out? What? Yeah. Let it play out. What do you, let's, let's say, let's operate in a world that this is done at the end of the year. What do you do with Ron and Bryson? If you're the PGA tour and you're rollout. I mean, I think you, I think you take them back. I think they have adopted the like, I think they've adopted the stance. I don't know, man. I think they've adopted the stance that whatever's going to help the product is going to help the product. And I think those two massively help the product. Yeah. It's probably some version of the Brooks deal, but that hurts financially, right? That you just out, you just try to publicly outline how much money you're not going to get, you know, potential money you're not going to get and make them play second tier events. How do you do that with guys that maybe don't want to come back as much as, as Brooks did. I mean, you told Ron, you're going to be mega suspended if you go one and then you offered a one time amnesty. Like, I don't know if you can offer the Brooks deal again one. And I think if you're recruiting. Rom to come back under that, like he knows he has the power in that and can kind of dictate the terms. Well, if you don't want to, I mean, those are, I don't know. Those are, if they don't want the deal, they don't want the deal, right? Like, I don't think you go begging for those guys to come back. I think it's, I just think it's messier with, with ramen Bryson than I think it was with this kind of program that's like, oh, you want to come back? You can come back right now. Here's the penalties you got to pay. I don't know. I don't know how, how things will, will play out. That's for a future day, but I'm curious. I don't know if there's been since we've been live. I don't know if there's been any statements that have confirmed that everybody is going to play this week. I would assume the players play. I know that there was the golf channel graphic that was popped up that, that it was rumored that guys were potentially not going to play tomorrow. If they weren't paid, I believe they've been paid now from, from what I've gathered, but what about slugger? What do you do a slugger? Great question. Is there returning, you know, rules official program? Returning. The Rop. Yeah, I'd have to have to know what happens in ferrity, you know, and, and I mean, God, it's just, there's just a God. We, yeah, we do need to maybe do a whole retrospective. It's amazing how I promise if you're listening to this, it's amazing how much you forgot of the last four or five years. I mean, the flash mob is the, is the easy one. There's just the Bryson rope. Surely you just, surely you just, I mean, there's just, there's hundreds of things that have happened, but the, the, all the hype videos, you know, with the, with the shrimp cocktail and all of that. It's just, there's a million, a million things. The clip art, the original logos, the rhino jive. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's like 747 private jet. Oh, God. I don't think that work. Yeah. Shout out to, yeah, the ride French, the takes men, Tweet Mitchell just blown the top off of it. Huh. That's right. I will say they do get the credit for the original scoop. And it was like, Oh, take the under part of the original scoop is take the under on the next event. I was like, Oh, okay. The next events are happening. Like, I hope people didn't take the under when the calcium markets were interesting to monitor today because it was at one point, it was like very, very much in favor. Like the Mexico events going to happen, but like you could almost make five to one on your money betting against the Virginia event happening, which would be the next one. Like since now flipped and it's like, basically you can make four to one on your money betting against the Virginia event happening now, but it was interesting. Interesting day on those markets as to they couldn't figure out what was about to happen over the next couple of events as well. I think we are only in danger of saying things we will ultimately eventually regret if we continue on any farther, but we did need to pop on tonight. I really appreciate everyone tuning in here, but trying to summarize everything that's happened over the last 24 hours will of course be closely monitoring the situation. Any other updates will likely come on our Sunday live show that will be coming up this coming Sunday. For me and my team. Recaps. It'll be for me and my team. Yeah, many things we've forgotten about. Caffeine TV. We had a shout out of caffeine TV. I mean, it's just thousands of things people forgot. But thank you everyone for popping on late here on a Wednesday night. Thank you everyone for tuning in and we'll see you back here come Sunday. Thank you to Joel for popping on as well and to our friends at Titleist and Roeback and Cody running the ones and twos. We'll see you here on Sunday. Crack on. Cheers.