The Mind Control Romance

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Happy Dating Detectives Monday! Hi, Mackenzie! How are you? I'm good. You look so beautiful, even though I know you're a little bit sicky. Thank you. You look beautiful, too. I was also just posting one of our videos on social media and I was like, God, Mackenzie looks gorgeous. Oh, I love you. Thank you so much. We're so pretty. We're doing a podcast that has no visual. You guys, I literally put on makeup before the podcast. Oh, I do. You know, I know. It makes you feel good too. Like there's just something about doing something for yourself that just makes you feel good. Even if it was like, you got a face for radio, my friend. I was gonna say we have a guest from the UK today we do which is exciting I mean I just love that this show is getting global and that you guys are sending messages or stories from all over the place and if you're like me you love an accent like every time I hear an accent I want to emulate it I shouldn't because it's probably really offensive because I do them horribly but I love an accent I I mean, I do slip into British accents. That one is hard not to. I do too, but it's so bad. We won't scare you guys with that. They're like, that's not how we sound. Mackenzie, please stop. You know what? You guys can imitate us all you want because I'm sure there's plenty to make fun of. But she is awesome. Our guest, her name's Anna. We're calling her Anna. And I want you to put your detective caps on and let us know if you put the pieces together at what point. because I had a lot of theories throughout. It's definitely a difficult story. There's some- Yeah, trigger warning. Yeah, I think we definitely talk about mental health issues, unwanted pregnancy and some talk of sexual assault. And I will say as mental health comes up, we know that we're talking about a dogfish. You guys know we're talking about a dogfish. So when we hear a dogfish using a mental health disorder, sometimes we make fun of it. We're not making fun of the mental health issue. were making fun of the fact that the dogfish is probably using it to lie. I just want to make that very clear. You know what I mean? We've had a lot of guests come on and share how their dogfish uses those mental health weaponizes it. Yeah, they weaponize them. Thank you. That's the word I was looking for. And it's not so horrible. It's horrible. We'll do our dogfish debrief at the end and get into it more. But there's definitely a lot that comes up. Anna's amazing. She's safe now. And she tells her story so well. Yeah. And I think Anna's story is a great example of how like one story can make a big difference for a lot of other people. So yeah, so we're really grateful for all of our guests that come on and share. So let's let Anna share her story. Let's get into it. Hi, Anna. We're so glad to have you here today, but not glad. Not not glad. Yeah, We wish you weren't here, but we're happy to meet you. Yes. Question mark. I'm glad to be here. We would love to give you the floor and let you take us away on this journey and this story that you have to share with us. So please take us away. Okay. So I will start at the very beginning. I was quite young, in my early 20s, and I'd finished university and I started my own business. And that was going quite well. And it's in the medical sports field. and so my first interaction with Toby was I received an Instagram message and he said oh hey I think I have clients who'd be interested in what you do and they might be interested in what I do so I'm kind of used to receiving Instagram DMs from guys I'm not flirty and things like that so I'm normally like no no no that's not what I'm interested in but this guy business proposal so I was like yeah that makes so much sense let's let's do this let's meet up see if our clients would work with each other and so I have a we met up I'm gonna ask these questions then you're I'm gonna stop interrupting will you give us like when was this like where are you at this yeah sure so I'm in England and I went to university in the south of England and this is all based around the south of England. So. Okay. And was it recently or like a while ago? It's been about five, five and a bit years now. So a while ago, long enough to kind of settle things down a little bit as you'll find out. Yeah. Got it. Okay. Good foundation. So we met up and I went to his gym where he worked. And the first thing I noticed is that everyone in the gym seems to think very hi love him they're all saying hi and like fist bumping and they kind of seem to hold him in a bit of a bit of sense of awe and I was like okay maybe he's helped a few of them and that makes sense but it was probably starting my feelings of this is a cool guy this is someone who maybe I want in my circle so yeah we ended up chatting and we got on really well and then I went home and then that evening he actually messaged me and he said hey I actually really like who you are as person and I think you were like one of the smartest people I ever met I would really like take you out on a date and okay smooth yeah smooth and he asked for a date that evening so I really like that I'm someone who's quite spontaneous and if you know what you want go get it kind of thing so we met up and then he took us to a restaurant and when we entered into the restaurant he was like oh we don't have a reservation but I'm Toby and the waiter looks a little startled for a second and then he was like oh I'm just I'll just go speak to the owner and then the next thing I know they're literally moving chairs to the front of the restaurant sitting us down they felt very theatrical I was like okay maybe his friends would be over it just seemed like a lot you're like did he pay them to look cool no well not that i saw so we didn't even pay for the meal as far as i'm aware yeah who is he we didn't do i know i know literally i was like okay i just i just played it off like oh maybe he knows that maybe they're friends but it was quite dramatic it was quite like oh i felt like a celebrity i was like is this guy I guess that's what you wanted me to think, but you guys will find out. 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You'll save over 40%. And when you use promo code TDD, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three-piece towel set. They make an amazing gift. And with a 30-day money-back guarantee, there's no risk. That's trymiracle.com slash TDD, code TDD at checkout. Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Yeah, so that's our first date. And then after that, we talk a lot on the socials. And then we get to show, well, obviously the numbers as well. And it's kind of like every day, a lot of the time. But it's quite reciprocal. Like he probably messages more, but I'm replying and I'm not thinking anything strange about it. So talking a lot, we start hanging out a lot. But one thing I would say was a bit strange is where he lived didn't really match the lifestyle he talked about having. And he also had quite an expensive car. And yet he lived in quite a rough area of a city nearby to me in England. So that was a bit of a strange combination, like quite rough. Like I couldn't even park my car near where he lived. Okay. Wow. Did you have an explanation for that or just kind of like no big deal? Not really. I think yeah that's like an awkward thing to ask someone you're not going to be like why do you live here yeah I didn't want to offend him totally I couldn't be like dude this is rough but yeah so that was a slight mismatch but I honestly at the time I didn't really think much about that he was young I was young I was like maybe he just puts his money into other things so we had I would say a really good relationship at the start and if I needed any confirmation from him he would immediately there messaging me letting me know how much he liked me and it seemed really nice maybe quite intense but yeah retrospect is a beauty so things have seemed pretty normal until I said the first hint that things were going a bit strange was we were out walking my family dog because I still lived with my parents and we're walking along the road so I've just gone to put the dog on the lead and he suddenly throws the stick that dog had been playing with him earlier into the road as a car is coming yeah what oh my god yeah as the car is coming I turned to him and I was like what the hell was that and then he turns and he's just giggling literally like a child just giggling and I'm trying to talk to him and he just thinks it's the most hilarious thing I've ever seen that's awful yeah I was like if the dog wasn't on the lead the dog would be dead and the fact that he's in the lead literally like my me and my animals I'm so protective when it gets to them of course so that was the first thing that we probably had I wouldn't I would say a row but he just giggled like he didn't even row back and then there were just other moments where he would do something very just really dumb and then just giggle about it and I started to feel in those moments as if I was talking to maybe like a five-year-old child well yeah well I wouldn't even say evil because it wasn't like it just seemed a bit moronic like and he'll giggle away and I was just it felt like I was talking to a child like you know you're trying to tell a kid not to oh okay or something and they're like very errant yeah yeah so these sort of things started to happen and I was a bit like oh okay he's annoying me but it wasn't big enough for me to really have a serious discussion with him or have an argument or break things off I was just like you know what some guys are annoying that's just 100% especially in my early 20s I probably would have like gaslit myself a little bit and been like was that as bad as I think it is like is that enough to freak out or yeah and I must admit we also we were starting to look quite a lavish lifestyle so he started suggesting that we went on quite extravagant weekend trips so this would be to different European cities basically so like Rome, Paris, not too shabby yeah exactly really really nice I'm someone who loves traveling and we both in the mindset of we only have one life let's go out there so we're having this one hand we're having these really extravagant holidays on the other hand there's like slightly childish irritating moments so you can see why i was like oh they don't matter totally totally did your parents like him was he respectful of them not really so oh yeah so i thought these childish moments he would just be able to not do them in front of them because you know you try and put it good front forward but yeah quite early on like we went on a bike ride and it's muddy and he's falls over and he just starts like throwing the bike and stomping his feet like a child oh my god yeah and he's a bit older than me bear in mind so he's like late 20s that's so attractive wow women love that oh geez my parents were like are you sure about this certain but I was quite defensive of him I say it's the first guy I'd ever been seriously interested in so I was like you don't know how great he is how he makes me feel and quite quickly they learned not just not to say stuff about him because I would get riled up yeah yeah yeah they wanted to keep the peace yeah they were like okay then when we bring it up the more it's going to push her away and but I could tell and I think he could also tell that they didn't like him so he just basically like let's not go over there very much so we ended up staying at his an awful lot more and so things started to get even a bit stranger so I'm staying at his a lot more and then one morning I wake up and he wakes up and he literally seems confused about who I am yeah he was like what are you doing here I was like I'm your girlfriend what do you mean what am I doing and he he seemed completely convinced that he did not know who I was what stop yeah yeah yeah yeah I was like do we need to call an ambulance because are you having stroke I was going down the medical route and I think this kind of well at this point he was like I'm is gonna have a shower so he goes and has a shower and then he comes back and he's suddenly acting like everything's completely normal like the whole thing about not knowing who I was just never happened what and he's like yeah yeah yeah he's like what should we do today and then I sit him down and I'm like okay this just happened you didn't know who I was and he literally like puts his hands on mine and he's like look I need to tell you something and obviously at this point my heart is racing I'm like I don't know what I thought but I was like this is not words anyone wants to hear yeah so he puts his hands on mine and then he's like okay there are three of me oh no absolutely yeah and he basically then goes on to tell me that he has multiple personality disorder he said to me there's the child version of him and then there's a protector version of him and then there's him and that he has these moments that he can't remember and quite frequently he'll wake up somewhere that he didn't fall asleep or he'll be driving and he'll suddenly just be aware that he's driving and not knowing how he got in the car what and yeah yeah so I didn't know much about this disorder but he said that when he's in these other personalities he's completely unaware of what's going on when he comes back into himself is that how that works I'm gonna have to go down the google in that moment do you what's your knowledge of personality disorders well I did know it could be caused from trauma and we'd had quite a lot of deep discussions about his childhood trauma and he had had quite severe childhood trauma from what he told me which I believe like everything at the time it sounded really quite severe so I I did think like oh that makes sense he has trauma like from what I knew of it it made sense of what he told me about his childhood I didn't know about the blackouts and stuff and I didn't really research into that because I did I think I did just believe him I didn't think that it wouldn't be true because because you're a good person yeah yeah and also he excused the childish behavior I was like oh he can't help it it was actually is a child in that moment he can't help it so I did believe it but I also wanted to believe it sure so yeah yeah that was a revelation and then after this happened the personalities came out an awful lot more especially the protective one so I'll be out with friends and then I'd get a phone call and then he'd be like oh it's blah blah which is his his other name he gave out a different they all had different names all three of them and so then I would have to be like oh okay I'm just out with these people Toby already knows this but you don't know this so I'd like be explaining where I'm going who I'm with but I just put it down to like reassuring his protective side wow yeah so interesting yeah and I would say he he didn't really seem to then actively get jealous it was just more like these checkups were happening and then I just assumed that he wasn't having an episode but I was kind of glad that he remembered who I was at least yeah at least yeah thank you for at least remembering me I guess exactly I was like oh he knows who I am and remembers me and then I tell him and yeah I mean one day this is maybe like a few months after he told me about the personalities. I'm on for a walk and then he turns to me and he's in his protective personality and then he's like oh would you like to be my girlfriend? And so that was I actually like had butterflies and everything and I genuinely felt like it was a sign that we were meant to be together that his other personalities also wanted to date me. So my friends obviously started to notice these phone calls and they're just like yo we don't like this and I'm like oh you don't understand he's got his multiple personalities and I'm explaining what's happening and they're like we don't really care why we just know that it's not healthy and obviously I didn't want to hear that and I did unfortunately I did relay this back to him and then he started going off about how they don't know about the disorder and how they're being really offensive and so I probably well I definitely slowly distanced myself a little bit from the friends because he would then start to get annoyed that I was hanging out with them when they were disrespectful to him and then I was being disrespectful to him by hanging out with them so this was starting isolation yeah yeah it's starting to happen and I'm starting to get these night terrors so I've had them as a child but they were starting to escalate so these night terrors would be I would just wake up screaming the house down and I would have had a nightmare but I wouldn't necessarily even remember what the nightmare was so one evening I wake up and I'm screaming the house down and I happen to be with him and he wakes me up and he's like what's going what's going on and I explained to him about these night terrors and he says to me okay well this is your subconscious coming out because you're dreaming and it means that your subconscious and your conscious are not properly aligned and you're not listening to each other so you need some hypnosis to help with this oh okay doctor yeah and then of course the next thing he says I'm trained in hypnosis oh good lord was he doing any kind of therapy or treatment for his disorder? Did he talk about that? Or was he just like, this is what it is? So I did speak to him a bit about going to therapy and he claimed that he was going. And then in terms of taking medications, he was quite like, he's quite a conspiracy theorist. He was like, oh, that's just to dampen down your creativity. And he just didn't take medication and didn't agree with medication. Delete Me makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. And this ties into this story that we're sharing today. So as the story goes on, we will talk about Delet Me again, because I'm grateful that we can advertise with a company that can help a lot of the people on our show. Anyone with an active online presence, like you don't really know what's out there about you. And whether it's identity theft, harassment, doxing, somebody you know had to deal with that. 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And it's not going to cost any money. so that's true yeah don't recommend guys so anyway so we started doing don't you're real therapists anyway so we started doing this hypnotherapy and it turned out I was really susceptible to the hypnotherapy so you know he'd bring me down and then he would start to kind of bring up memories or or encourage me to bring up memories from my childhood so at first you were both quite surprised at how susceptible I was I'm quite like a science person I just didn't think it would do anything but I was really susceptible to it I don't know if it's because I liked him and made me all susceptible but yeah I definitely have heard like great people have had such great results with it like I believe in it for sure I I don't know just I could see people being like what a loony but it's like no there's like some serious stuff behind hypnotherapy yeah yeah yeah I really did and started bringing up these feelings and emotions and then I would start to bring up these memories but what actually started to happen over time is I would bring up a feeling and then he would ask quite leading questions so he'd be like oh do you feel like it's because your father left you to go on that work trip and what started to happen is I started to change the picture in my mind of how secure and loving my family were to me oh my god yeah yeah so I started to kind of shift my beliefs about how truly they wanted the best for me or not and he also he brought up real things so he'd be like oh you still live at home they haven't encouraged you to move out it's because they want to keep their control on you and so he'll kind of intermingle real things that we discussed when I wasn't under hypnosis with leading questions about the childhood to bring up what I think now probably quite fake memories or like just enhanced the traumatic weren't even traumatic memories so this is like mastermindy because yeah it makes sense it's like yeah hypnotherapy is meant to just reframe parts of your past to help you like quit smoking or whatever it is you're working on it can be dangerous he's using it for evil yeah absolutely so I basically started to distance myself from my family as well at this point and then with his suggestion and it was something I also wanted to do I bought a little house and him and I basically moved into my house and that became the new situation and I was now not really seeing my friends that much and not really talking to my family as much as whenever they'd message he'd be like oh they're trying to control you that's what they do yeah so this started to started to happen and and wait you bought this house yourself i bought the house myself yes and he basically lived in there with me so he's not like on anything no no so he's not on the house luckily but he you know he doesn't pay rent or anything yeah he's just like we never see his manky flat anymore it's just my house so that becomes our new kind of like bubble and then my yeah I say still some good things are happening we're still going away without starting to happen a bit less and then I'm not really seeing anyone who actually knows who I am so I'm seeing some of his friends with him and I'm seeing him and not really seeing my connections of my life anymore and I'm living in this new house and then I am starting to experience some strange things so I will wake up in the car and we'll be driving somewhere and I won't remember getting in the car wait what yeah yeah so this started to happen or we would just like suddenly be at the beach and I would like what what or we'd suddenly be like in the spare room because we had two rooms and I was like oh why why are we here and I didn't remember going to bed and so I was starting to have gaps of memory yeah oh no yeah oh no yeah what was the little voice saying in your head when you would wake up in these places yeah so when I'd wake up in these places I was quite panicked but he would always be there to calm me down and it probably only happened two or three times before he had an explanation for me so he basically told me that during the hypnotherapy sessions that another personality of mine had started to come out of yours yeah apparently yeah so he said that I have two personalities and the reason I have the night terrors is because I'm not listening to my other personality and I'm like overruling it with this kind of like good girl naive personality and yeah yeah and so he was saying that this personality decided to come out when I wasn't under hypnotherapy and maybe this is probably why I was having these blank moments and so I would say this is probably the first bit what I was a bit like not entirely believing him straight away because well because now he's saying I have something and this is not this is a big step to him saying he has something yeah and also the way he framed that to me is kind of criticizing your we'll say primary personality yes you're naive you don't understand you're not listening to yourself like I would I feel like subconsciously you would just be like oh my god I'm not being good enough for this guy yeah yeah I think that's why he said it like that because then what happened is he started bringing out this other personality more he'd be like oh if you just listen to her you would know what to do right now or if you listen to her you wouldn't be asking me these stupid questions again and so he started oh my god yeah did you believe this like you believe this was happening for real you were like oh my gosh I can't believe I'm doing this well it made sense to me in the way that he'd had the memory gaps and now I was getting the memory gaps and the night terrors like I think that was my gateway into being like oh maybe I do have a mental health disorder because the night terrors I also woke up I didn't remember why I was terrified so I think it was just that little bit of difference between my conscious mind I suppose like my knowledge of what's going on and my reality. And you don't have your circle to bounce things off. Right. Yes, exactly. I had no one else to talk to apart from him. So what happened because he was undermining my original personality. I actually, we got into kind of a worse cycle where I would even suggest the hypnosis because I wanted him to keep liking me. And whenever he spoke about her, it would be like, she's great. She knows this. She thinks about this. this is such a mind, excuse my French, fuck. Uh-huh. Because you're like jealous of yourself. Exactly. And then I started thinking, does he even like me? Or this doesn't feel like he's even dating me. And yeah, then I also felt like this is the only way to keep him. And it was like, get us to another level. Because it was like, I don't want to be myself anymore. So, yeah. So this started to happen. And it started to become really bad to the point where they're like, every day there were gaps I didn't know what had happened in like a time frame and so my friend invites me to her wedding and this is a childhood friend and this is a friend that he doesn't know about so he hasn't yet said anything negative about her or that she's been offensive or like he hasn't yet been able to phrase her badly and so when this wedding invite comes through I say to him like oh yeah we're definitely going and there's nothing he can really say to change my mind because he has no leg to stand on in terms of her being not good or anything. So we go to this wedding and it's really nice. It's really lovely. He doesn't have any of his childish moments. He seems to be getting on well with everyone. Everyone seems to like him. And I end up having quite a bit of chat with my friend, even at her wedding. We were really, really close. I had a really nice time. And then I wake up the next morning and I don't remember getting into bed. so this is what yeah so it happens again but I'm not that surprised anymore so my immediate reaction is to turn to him and ask him what happened and he was like oh yeah other person who came out but don't worry she was great everyone loved her she was as she always is like really smart really funny and like on his feel about how great she is and so I was like okay phew I didn't do anything embarrassing I didn't get blackout drunk like it's fine and so the next day I say to my friend and I'm like oh did I behave oddly at all or say anything different and she was like oh not really you just started to act really drunk and then Toby took you up to bed at like 11. What? So this is the first sign because I finally managed to talk to someone else it wasn't just him but things weren't adding up the timelines weren't adding up he implied that I stay at will past midnight but as the other personality. She was saying I went to bed at 11 and that I was behaving like obliterated, like bouncing with things falling over. So quite a big difference. And that's horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is the first alarm bells that really started going off in my head that maybe I shouldn't believe everything that comes out of his mouth. Did you have any theories at that point? Yeah, what were your thoughts on that? At this point, no, not really. I just thought that maybe he didn't want me to be embarrassed. Oh, okay. Like, I basically gave him the benefit of the doubt the whole time. I was like, oh, yeah, he didn't want me to be feeling like I was a drunkard and stuff. I was a bit confused why he said my other person came out, because I think he said that because that would give a reason as to why I woke up in bed not knowing how I got there, I guess. Well, I kind of basically explained it all to him trying to be the good guy. and and you being you being at fault yeah so I actually went spoke to my friend later and I because I hadn't seen her in a while and I think because she wasn't close to my family I felt like I could just tell her everything that was going on there was no risk that you know she would tell my family and they wouldn't like him and that there'd be like a long blown out effect of her feelings about what's going on I think she was like a safe person because she was almost unknown to the situation so I told her what was going on and she said to me she was like I think you need to take a break from this guy and just see if your other personality starts coming out less you start remembering your life more and you get your life back to be your own because right now your your life is not your own like you you don't know what's happening half the time what what were your thoughts on that were you like yeah were you like hell no uh well I was I was like yeah I think because of the mismatch and also because I did feel like like my life was becoming a blur I was like waking up in different places I you know how if you want to plan something for your life you have to think ahead in the future and have time to sit down and sure I couldn't even do that like I couldn't go through one day understanding the whole day let alone be able to plan anything for the future like I yeah I was and I was I was really miserable like I was starting to just probably because of what he was saying. At least that's what I put it down to. But I was starting to wake up and just feel really heavy in my body, heavy in my head, no motivation. And she was just like, you know what? Let's just see if it makes a difference. And at this point, I was like, I'm willing for something to see if it makes a difference. Set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. My goal for the year, Mackenzie, is to really feel good about my, what I'm calling my freedom fund. That is- Oh, I like that. I know you do. Freedom fund. Freedom fund. That is the fund that I think everyone should have, especially women or non-binary people, because I think financial independence is the path to every other part of independence. Like you never want to feel dependent on someone else. You always want to be able to take care of yourself if you have to. I'm using Monarch to help me. And you've been using Monarch. I really like Monarch so far. And I love the idea of a freedom fund because when you think of, especially the stories that we have on our show, a lot of people feel stuck because they don't have the financial means to move on and to leave their situation that might be dangerous. And so with Monarch, it really gives you the opportunity to pay off debt and save for, yeah, budget, save for major milestones or just for safety, just, or just like you said, just for the freedom to do whatever. And it's a tool that helps you plan, project and proactively achieve whatever your goal is. Monarch has helped users save over $200 per month on average after joining. So you can set yourself up for financial success this year. Monarch is an all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting, accounts, investments, net worth, future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. You can feel aware and in control of your finances this year. Use code dating at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code dating. So I asked for a break with him. and he was relatively well behaved in that time. He was not overbearing the messages, nothing threatening. And after about five, six days, I did just really miss him. So we did get back together again. Did you notice any memory gaps in that five day period? I would say initially, I would say not such obvious memory gaps, but I was also really quite low mood wise, like barely getting out of bed. We were going to a breakup basically. Yeah. And how did he act during that time? He was pretty well behaved, like pretty normal and just messaging every now and then, like checking in on you. Just a really nice person to break up with, which I was surprised. And I think that's also why I gave him another shot because I was like, oh, you know, when shit hits the fan, he was there for me in the right way oh totally yeah so we get back together and things are pretty good for like maybe six weeks and then I noticed that I've missed my period so yeah so I say to him I'm like oh gosh I missed my period and he said oh take a pregnancy test and so I did and it was positive and this was a huge shock to me because I was on the pill and I took the pill every day and you know it says the days like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday so yeah yeah even though I know I didn't remember every single day I knew I'd taken it because the next day would say that day had gone oh my god yeah yeah so even if even if you don't remember the day before you see that the pill is gone so you assume it was and so you're like oh maybe i took it oh my god yeah so i was like oh thank goodness the day's on so i know i took it so i tell my friend and then she's like giving me serious side eye and she's like okay can you bring the pill package in to see me because she works in a pharmacy so I was like okay so bring it in and then she flips it over she's like yeah this doesn't look right what why and I know what do you mean well she was like oh the coloring slightly off and that symbol isn't quite the right shape what for the whole thing yeah like the foil packaging inside like the outside was fine the full fasting insight was wrong well we got it tested and it was just sugar pills it was just like sugar one no yeah yeah yeah so in the uk you could basically like send off drugs phenomenously and then they'll tell you what's in it and then they said yeah so oh i am so sorry oh my god yeah that's oh I don't even know dude what the hell yeah yeah so immediately I'm thinking okay we broke up he knew our relationship was at risk he thought this would trap me he switched them I mean I just immediately I blamed him I just I think it was kind of the final proof that something was seriously wrong yeah with our relationship and so this is where I'm my friend is like okay you need to get out and I'm like I am so down to get out yeah because this is periodically messed up like there's no way I can be like oh he didn't mean it or this is yeah he did exactly yeah yeah yeah like he has planned this no and now it's involving a potential child like this is now not just me he's endangering it's just yeah so in the states that's illegal because you're tampering with medication which is a felonious crime i was just gonna say is it illegal to swap medication it seems like it should be yeah it is but in the uk they're very much like how solid is your evidence and then they'll just tell you point blank like it's not gonna work like it's not enough and so yeah they were was like unless you have a video of him swapping it it's just not gonna fly like it could be anyone at any point so yeah it's completely illegal but then unless they have solid evidence yeah yeah they don't do anything oh my god so yeah so i started planning my escape and so i'm in in this house with him all of our stuff is in there together and I basically wait for him to go out and then I message him and I'm like we're breaking up it's final there's no getting back together I'm gonna put the stuff outside and he just flings off the wall he's so angry and I think he knows at this point that I'm pregnant and he's like you're gonna kill our baby I want to be a dad and he's just absolutely goes crazy so he's driving out to work and at this point he has like three jobs which I now I'm not sure he actually did any of them but yeah he drives back and he's really ragingly angry and I'd luckily my friend had come in before I sent the text I just assumed yeah that he might just think like this and he comes in he's really angry and then my friend is like I'm gonna call the police unless you get out and so he seems to be aware that was a serious thing so he does leave but yeah in terms of the different jobs that he has at this point he'd recently started to become a locksmith what so yeah wait what are the so what are his three jobs a locksmith he works in something with so he works in the gym he decided to become a hairdresser and now he's a locksmith what oh okay yeah all right yeah yeah He probably had three. Yeah, he was just training three locksmiths. So I'm aware that this guy can basically break into any house because he knows how to pick locks. He knows how to drill them out, change them. And so I run away to my parents house and I stay there with them. and I do actually book in for an abortion because even though I really really did want a family one day I just knew that this child was not going to have a father to bring any positivity to its life and I was just like it's not fair so that was really really tough really really really upsetting and that must have been so hard for you what a hard decision to make yeah and you don't have to defend it either it was really hard especially because i did really want to be a mom it wasn't like i never wanted to kiss ever it was like something i really wanted in my life i mean what happened to you we talk a lot about informed consent and i i think birth control plays into that and it like you were not informed when you were with this person so like really can it can really be consensual and then also like when i having these blackout moments like what happening then is that consensual who is this other person if i don't remember it and it's another personality what does that what does that mean and yeah so i book into this abortion and he basically somehow finds out and he just goes out so at first to be fair first he's like don't do it you know I'm gonna make this work I'm gonna change you see me I can do it before I was on the right path when you suddenly got pregnant and flipped out on me because I hadn't told him about the pill I didn't want to give him a reason to like be like that's not true now I just yeah as soon as you give them a little bit of room to talk they can talk themselves out of anything yeah exactly exactly so I was just like as far as he was aware we'd broken up come back being really good and I'd suddenly broken up with him but he doesn't know that I found out about the pill so he was doing all this like I'll love you and make it work you've seen like how well I can do I've got businesses that are thriving blah blah blah and then I go in I have the abortion and I come back to her parents and then that night he breaks in to my parents grounds he breaks into their garage and we have some really expensive cars and then we wake up in the morning and the ferrari is like scratched completely oh my god are you serious yeah oh yeah the porsche's like tires slashed like he is he's just gone oh my god yeah but do we have cameras in there or some way to prove because now he's committed a crime so we had we have cameras at the entrance to the driveway but not really in the garage so yeah but i do this is the point where i do go and get a restraining order because i'm just like this person is unsafe yeah and to be fair they do give it to me just based obviously they can't prove the pill thing and all that but just based on his text messages which he had sent some threatening ones good no it's in between i mean not good but good that they yeah yeah good that so i was like thank god for that so i stayed at my parents for a bit and my mood was really awful it was really bad and i was still kind of having ways digging it better but like especially quite early on I'm still having periods where I couldn't really remember my memory seemed really foggy and dreamlike so I I actually tell my friend all of this and she's just like you know what why don't we just get your bloods taken see if there's anything wrong and I'm like no it's you know I'm just depressed so it's just a breakup and she's like let's just do it so we get that taken and they also look to the buds that they took they took some before the abortion and they were like yeah you need to be honest with us about the drugs that you're on what I I was about this yeah and I turned to them and I was like what do you mean I don't do drugs and they were like okay well you had really high levels of GHB in your blood oh my god yeah he was he was drugging you with the ghb oh my gosh yeah yeah so these blackout moments that i'm having not remembering stuff the way that my mood was super super low especially when i was away from him it's basically like if anybody doesn't know what ghb is it suppresses your nervous system like it making you just it's like a roofie similar yeah yeah yeah yeah first of all you feel like really elated and then if you taste too much you start to get kind of dizzy woozy memory lost basically that in that wedding where i was acting super drunk all of a sudden like bumping stuff yeah that was so we're just putting this in your food that you're eating and your drinks i assume so i don't know exactly how but i didn't taste it i didn't notice it and yeah yeah and i don't know about this specifically but i know there are definitely a lot of drugs that it like like memory loss or flat like that can happen after the fact too like once yeah it's been consistently in your system then you're just yeah absolutely so I was in withdrawal like the way that I was feeling so bad it wasn't just a breakup feeling it was I mean for months afterwards I couldn't get enjoyment out of anything it was what's a depressing yeah that it was really really bad so this felt like the sheet was whipped from over my eyes and then I started to see every single little thing that he had been doing to get me into a position of ultimate control so with this being a drug where the person using it is not able to fully control their body functions and their memory it just made me I would say at first like my when I first really heard it like my stomach dropped that would be the physical thing that I felt and then I started really realizing how much control this person wanted and was able to have over me and how his intentions were not for me they were for him and for him to basically use me mentally physically whatever and I also started to feel a bit sick because I didn't know what was happening in those moments and why would he want to do it like I'm already his girlfriend I'm already sleeping with him willingly so what is he doing on this drug that conscious me would not do so sorry yeah it was quite a mix of emotions I think first of all shock and then as it started to really understand the reasoning behind why he might do something like this I just you know when you get that taste in your mouth that you just want to like spit it out and rinse your mouth out a hundred times yes yeah you just want to like shower it off yeah like my whole body I felt like I wanted to like yeah yeah that was quite tough actually because I also started to worry like is he taking videos and footage of whatever this is and will that get out and I did spiral a bit but luckily none of that's happened but yeah I think as I started thinking like why would he do this and there's only a few reasons why you would want someone not consciously aware that yeah so we found that out and then I was like you know what I want to move on my life I want to go back home I want to start taking some control back and so I looked to go back home and I have a ring camera so I looked on the ring camera and I've probably been away for maybe like a week at this point I look on the ring camera just just because I just have a feeling that I just wanted to see if he'd like left anything and things like that so I look on his ring camera and his shoes are just like outside like like he's taking them off so I call the police and I'm like oh I found a suit outside we've got a restraining order he's not going to be near me not going to my house and then they were like okay we'll do a drive-by and they drive by and then they come back and they're like yeah no one's there we knocked on the door and I was like yeah he's not going to come to the door yeah he's not going to come back and be like hey I'm glad you came do you want some tea yeah I was like what do you mean I was like okay can you please just come with me because yeah I was you know when a kid's like I'm just in the dark and the mom's like oh look under the bed like it felt a bit like that I was like please just come and look with me yeah and I think they felt like yeah I think they felt like okay this this like neurotic woman let's just calm her nose yeah so we went to the house I opened it we went in we started searching the rooms and I kid you not Toby was just laid out on my bed what just like legs crossed leaning back like hey babe oh god it's just like i opened the door first and then my heart was pounding and then you saw the police officers behind me and then you got up and then they were like i was so glad they were there but i also just yeah i knew it like told you so i didn't know yeah i was too scared oh god forbid they listen to a woman and do their damn job sorry yeah yeah but i'm glad I was like, yeah. So then he did get up and he didn't pick up a light fuss. I think, you know, he knew it was serious. And after that is when his abuse kicked it up a notch. Wait, so what were the consequences of him breaking the restraining order? Yeah. I think he just got a slap on the wrist. They were like, this restraining order's in place. You can't be in her house. Like, no, no, you can't do that. That's a naughty boy. Yeah. yeah they were just like oh this trigger was in place now oh my god and that also just teaches him that oh i got away with this great yeah i could do it again yeah and this is when so he basically i don't know how he got my passwords i don't know if he had hacked my phone or if i gave him to him under hypnosis or something but he hacked into like honestly i don't know but he hacked into all of my social medias oh all of my work accounts he messaged all of my clients like it was oh my god yeah everyone put two-step verification on your stuff because i didn't have it at that time two-factor verification yes ma'am oh yeah it was it was awful it just felt like he was punishing me from every angle he could get and wherever i part my car he would somehow find it and scratch it up Wait, wait What the fuck? We need to go back a little This is like a lot And I feel like it's telling the story And in the moment We love the quote You can't see the forest Through the trees But all the trees are falling on you at once How did What happened after the day he was in your house? There's so many things Happening to you at this moment Yeah Yeah So it was kind of like Even the relationship ended The abuse got worse In terms of I mean I had my life back But it was also being destroyed all around everything I've built up. What was he sending to people? I think he sent something like, I've been on drugs, I've aborted a child, I'm on drugs. And just like, I mean, it sounded like a crazy person who wrote it, but it also was just trying to like demolish me as an ethical person to all of my clients. And yeah, it was pretty horrific. Because also it was true. Like that's what made it even worse. I couldn't just be like, ha ha, he's crazy. it was a bit like it fell really cut deep yeah oh my god that's so debilitating and degrading yeah like he's just trying to make you feel embarrassed and yeah and he's yeah the thing oh my god yeah i i'm so sorry that happened that's freaking terrible oh my god yeah so mad I'd say it was probably like the worst part in a way out of all of it because because of the shame and because of this something I was proud of and now I don't know I can look people in the eye again it just how did people react did they believe you when you said um so when I did manage it control back on my accounts I did put up some big posts and I was like I mean it felt really embarrassing to say but I was like I've been hacked I didn't go into details of like relationship abuse i was just like oh if anything weird's been found i've been hacked blah blah blah and i would say almost everyone just believed me and thought of some weird hacker yeah yeah i mean here in england we don't talk about personal lives so so people are just like okay let's not talk about let's ignore that interesting yeah it's like if i count back and he's scratching at the car and i just do a few simple steps like i just get a new car i'm just like you know what i don't know if he's tracking this I don't he recognizes it I am just done so I sell the car I get in your car I get rid of my phone get in your phone and things start improving like I don't see him around the supermarket anymore because that was happening my car doesn't get scratched up anymore and things are starting to get a bit better can you speak to like the emotions behind choosing to try to just move on versus going after him yeah I feel like that's a really hard choice for people where they're Could I go after him? Should I just move on? And there's no right answer. I'm just. Yeah. Well, I did actually go after him. So say more. So yeah. So basically I think I was in survival at first and I was like, I need to make myself safe. I wasn't saying it was like moving on. I say it was like, make myself safer. The attacks are going to be less if I take these steps. But coming back into reality was slow because I was still having a lot of the withdrawal effects so I was still having periods of like blurry memory lack of sleep I mean I had been for over a year afterwards that was a really really long one so when and when you don't sleep you're not in reality anyway when you are awake I mean you are but everything just seems a bit much yeah and you can't fully process it so the coming back into reality took a while and that's where I think my revenge like only came when I was fully back in reality and then when I started to feel a bit safer but more confident and I was coming back to being me again that friend who I initially told everything to I also told I started telling her absolutely everything and he frequently mentioned this girl who he called the ex-fiance and I think it's the only person he ever got engaged to but he was so not over her like he would constantly talk about how horrible she was And especially when the pregnancy happened, he was like, you're going to bought it just like her. And I ended up reaching out to fiance lady because I just wanted someone who I just wanted to know a bit more about. Let's see how crazy this crazy ex really is. Yeah. So I reached out to her and she actually told me a lot. So she, it seems like since he had kind of escalated or changed some of his tactics, but you could definitely see the beginning of the crazy and some things he did with her were really awful. And she also told me something, which was that he is actually quite famous in the underground drug world. Oh, oh, that tracks. Oh my God. Yeah. he is a celebrity but yes so when he was at the gym he was selling steroids to all the gym guys they were like i wonder if he wants to keep him happy yeah exactly and then the restaurant guy owed him money for drugs so he would often go there and like get like sudden reservations and stuff wow trying to keep him happy yeah so she told me about this warehouse that he used to have when he was with her and after a little bit of discussion with her we met up and she was she was really cool I said to her I was like you know what he's really tried to ruin your life he's really tried to ruin my life let's get this fucker like I'm loving this I love when I love when we team up yes so we did anonymous tip to the police about the location of the warehouse who owned the warehouse and they actually did a raid and also raid of his car and they found I think it was like 15,000 pounds worth of fashion jewelry items bags etc and a lot more thousand pounds worth of cocaine what and yeah yeah so they caught him red-handed and he went busted exactly i was like you weren't even getting revenge you were just being a good citizen yeah exactly i'm just doing the best for everyone in the world which really would be him not existing but this is the next best thing you tell him you tell him yeah yeah so yeah about that thing about moving on we did kind of move on but also we put him in jail for a few years wow how many years yeah so he only got five years that's a good amount of time though because a lot of times it seems they don't get it they don't get nearly that yeah i'm not sure if it's his first time being on their radar because there is quite a lot of time but you know they do let people out early for good behavior so i'm just hoping his other personalities stop that happening so he's still in jail right now he's coming out pretty soon yeah oh okay yeah and interestingly when he was arrested he was also arrested with another young lady who she also got arrested so he moved on pretty fast how do you think he was with her when you were together yeah or with someone else yeah so i recently actually reached out to her like through a mutual friend because i was a bit nervous at first because it was like is she still connected to him but a mutual friend was like yeah no she's not and then there is some overlap like he I think he kind of saw me as like the rich girl who maybe he would marry and like take that and then her is like it sounded pretty horrific to be honest the way he treated her from like he that nice guy like was not really there with her so yeah and I do feel sorry for her because she had no prior convictions and yet she's caught red-handed in this car with him and she goes down and I don't know how I know what he's like and I just wonder if he kind of like lured her into all of this I don't I don't know but he kept it from me which I'm quite impressed but I think it's because he had this other girl potentially kind of the whole time as well who he did that side with and we've had that like darker side and she knew and saw all of that that's also not the first time we've heard of like when someone is cheating they like treat them completely differently like we had two people come on who were found out they were dating the same person and they became besties this is one of our first episodes and it was like to one he was like a hallmark movie boyfriend like prince charming perfect and the other one he was very violent very kinky very dark very degrading and it was just like this weird switch up that he had them both for very different things like yeah it's just so interesting sad but weird yeah so all three of us it's been really interesting to see like how we picture together like we piece it all together the different parts of him and the progression of him and I think we have decided that we might tell our own story so that's the next exciting thing that we might try do is do our own like podcast story about it and we'll bring our own yeah hell yeah obviously we support that obviously yeah i mean and for me it's definitely helped because i haven't really told many people the whole story i think there's still some bits i've ashamed of and just to say it out loud has really really helped i just appreciate you sharing your story i'm so honored yes a hundred percent thank you so much like my two takeaways to everyone would be one don't change your mind about your friends and your family being there for you from the beginning if someone comes in and they start saying something different just don't let them take away your other voices of reality and then the second thing is don't play with mental health like if someone says that they're a therapist even also if they are a therapist and you're dating don't let them therapies you because you're dating them you shouldn't mix it so yeah that's a huge thing as soon as someone starts manipulating how you see your brain like you said it changes your reality yes absolutely yeah gaslighting to a whole new level I mean I'm so sorry he drugged you and I hope like how are you doing in terms of coming to terms with how much of your life at that time you don't know yeah I would say I have a slight well I've always been a bit like this but I'm also a bit like okay your life is your own what are you going to do with it like even more so than before where absolutely it's hard to come to terms with I guess in a way because I don't remember it super like a lot I don't know what I missed out on because it's just a blur so you're Like I'm looking forward rather than thinking about that too much. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of moments in the story where I was curious now that you're out of it, like the way that your friend helped you. She took kind of a gentle approach. Like she wasn't saying, oh, my God, this guy's awful. Get out. She was like, what if you try seeing if it's better without him? Like, how did you feel about the way she put that? And the way that she was like, oh, it's just a break. it will give you mental clarity. So she is fantastic I yeah the whole time then and since she has been like in my life even closer she been she is a very amazing person but yeah she didn do it as like break up with him you forever gonna break up because there was no pressure conceive that yeah it was like oh it will give you mental clarity you know you might feel like you really miss him and once you're back with him which is how unfortunately how I thought I felt probably in withdrawals but anyway because there wasn't the pressure and it was like one small step and also I didn't think he would get angry at it because I could say it to him as a small step yeah and it was more of like an idea than someone telling you what you should do it gives you yeah yeah control I think about it in terms of like usually you're talking to a friend who's probably not in control so it is like giving them some choice in this matter which is way more important than you realize I think yeah yeah and then even when it came to the pill she was like she didn't say oh he's changed the pill she was like oh that doesn't look right let's get it sent off and she knows I like signs and I like evidence so I think yeah she was quite clever with knowing me like who I really like am and knowing that yeah but I'm not sure direct approaches really work once you're in that deep with someone and they're your soul everything like he was my main friend my main business supportive my main lover like he was my therapist I mean he was everything yep so they're the enemy as they come for him exactly exactly and that was what my parents had done but her approach was great I would say you know if you've got a friend who's in an abusive relationship it's not their fault where they can't necessarily accept or understand or visualize a life without this person so the small steps of encouragement is probably gonna be a better way yeah it's different or even I also think reaching out consistently and like it doesn't even have to be that you talk about this all the time it's like making sure that they know that you are thinking of them and they're and not going to judge if they're ready you know yeah like her wedding invite when I probably hadn't spoken to her in like a few years and then from the moment that I voiced a little bit of my concern she consistently checked out on me yeah absolutely shout out yeah yeah that's amazing yeah she was great and I think in a way her being a little bit separated from like I couldn't tell my family as much as they love me and they would have been gentle about it because if I wanted to stay with him after I told them stuff like they would forever hated him so her being on the outside a bit more also helped interesting that's a great Do you think he really has a personality disorder? That's a good question. I haven't spoken to Le Fiancé. I am not so sure he genuinely does. I would venture to say probably not. Just an actor. An actor with a theater major with a psychology minor put to evil. Yeah, a genius but in all the wrong reasons. Yeah. and it can be evil that's I mean I hate going through the world doubting things all the time because there are good people but head on a swivel Mackenzie there are there are good people I've met good people since it definitely took me a long time to retrust my trust in my own judgment of people I would say that took a long time yeah so I would be like oh they're nice and then I were like but are you really seeing who they are kind of thing yeah totally yeah how are you now with yourself are you dating are you like yeah so I am dating I'm basically a stepmom now oh yeah how long have you been with this person and tell us yeah it's been over two and a half years i kind of reached three yeah and i think because we took it so slow because he is a kid and i was like oh i don't want to get too involved or hard to involve so we took a super slow super low pressure for at least the first year and i think that's what i needed like so many guys at least in england you know by third date they're wanting you to like be boyfriend girlfriend sleeping with them and it's really intense and I was like whoa so this guy it's too intense totally yeah yeah and then this guy just taking it really slow so we hang out quite a lot as well we called it friends but that didn't last that long yeah it's quite it's quite gave up on that pretty quickly it's quite funny my sister was like oh how was your friend date I was like I was like I I didn't know a dad could be so hot I love that and I feel like it's so attractive to prioritize your daughter and want to respect both of you and take it slow like that's amazing yeah and when I did start seeing him with her But I mean, kids test your patience. I don't think I fully understood this until I was in, well, I'm in this like family role. And he just didn't lose his shit with her. And I thought, wow, okay, this is ever a test. Kids are the test and he is passing the test. So that's amazing. He passed all the tests. I like that. Oh, yeah. Well, please keep us updated. This was a big, crazy, wild ride. Thank you so much. I just can't believe this guy. Like, the ODAC. Dude. Okay, Toby. I'm so happy she's okay. Yeah, what a shit. You know, I think. I mean, she's not okay. nobody can be okay after that but she's safe I think that I don't know I don't know what I'm more mad I think the thing that I'm the most upset about is that like he's doing time or whatever but not even for what he did to her is that like that pisses me off but I mean it's I mean I guess it's good like but also not even for what he did to her so that brings up the point if he does this to anybody else he doesn't have a record of conviction for this for this do you know what I mean like if they go and report it he'll have a history of drug conviction but not or the same thing which won't give him any additional time i don't know i don't like it this is another example of just the justice system saying that's really hard to prove like switching the sugar pills drugging you all of that is yeah it's hard to prove but did prove it like like help this help these victims with their case. Like if it was a murder, they would. Yeah, they would. So we have to at least take the claims, each one very seriously and put the same effort and support into that, that we do tons of other crimes. And I hate how that happens. Let's talk about how this guy, so this sabotage, this stealthing, or just basically reproductive coercion is, is, and can be considered a form of sexual violence. And by the way, in the UK where Anna is, this behavior has resulted in convictions for sexual assault. You're taking away their own autonomy. Like you're taking it away from them and it makes it non-consensual, like you said. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's, yeah, coercion, non-informed, uninformed consent. There's a, Michaela Cole is a writer. I May Destroy You. That's the name of the show. Major trigger warning. It's all about sexual assault phenomenal tv show and there's a whole plot line about her she didn't know that a man taking his condom off in the middle of sex without telling her was rape and it's like about her coming to terms with that navigating what to do and it's about the man who also did not know it was rape i mean yeah and to be clear it the the actual definition of rape does vary from country to country and state to state depending on like legally like legally but let's be real if it's not consensual like if you consent with a condom but you didn't know that there wouldn't be a condom because you're under the assumption a hole in it yeah that's that is not consent yeah you know what i mean like it just because you said yes but you take off the car that's now it's it's not consensual it's not consensual and it's hard to prove and i hate that the odds are not in her favor. But I do understand why people like her don't always pursue legal action because of how difficult the process is for them. And after everything she went through, I mean, how fabulous that she's connected with the exes that can at least be a support system and validation for her experience and potentially a team moving forward, especially once he gets out of prison. I mean, if one good thing comes out of it, it's the connections that maybe you couldn't have formed without going through it. And it does create a new path of empathy that you have. And so anybody that's been through anything, you are stronger and amazing because of it. And of course, with Anna and other people talking about it, opening up these conversations, you're just creating this, you're making this community bigger. You're creating a sense of community for others who feel alone in this. So I'm so grateful for that. But also, can we talk about the GHB, the drug? Yeah. So GHB, I know I mentioned this in the show, but it's short for gamma hydroxybutyrate. Okay. I don't know if I've said that right, but whatever. And it basically depresses the central nervous system. It acts as a sedative and it can be an anesthetic in like higher doses. And so it's called like a club drug or like a party drug, but it's like a rooste. Yeah, it's basically like a roofie. So it can be a date rape drug also. So it causes like rapid sedation and amnesia, unconsciousness. And that's why it's considered a date rape drug. It's sometimes it's clear, it's odorless. And you know what I mean? So obviously it's in our system, but you don't know that it's that you're drinking it or that you're ingesting it. And so he's using this. So the potential long-term effects of GHB are also, one, we don't even know all of them, but there are, I mean, there's research connecting it to diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. And she could potentially harm herself when she's on these drugs. It's a depressant. So she's feeling all kinds of other mental health issues as a result of being on it for a long time. Yeah, and if you get like blackout and you hurt yourself like you're not like and what is he doing to her during this time we'll never know and that sucks my heart really goes out to her having to come to terms with that and we did we we kind of talked about it offline but the she talked she mentioned the cultural difference of being in the UK and how it is more likely that people there are not going to talk about their trauma talk about what they're going through and it brought up I remembered a person in my life explaining a situation which I recognized as sexual assault, but they did not. And I remember thinking, do I want to tell this person that they went through that trauma? Or do I want them to continue to live with it being like, oh, oops. Oh, well. Yeah. I don't know. I was just thinking about how that's especially when you yeah, when you don't have like a classification for what happened to you. There's no right way to navigate it, but I don't know, just the open book versus the tight-lipped cultural dynamics. I'm just curious, people in listening, what do you identify more with? Somebody who's like, let me just move forward. I don't need to dig into this too much. Are you people like us who can't shut up? And what are the pros and cons of that for you? I mean, that's tough. I just, I mean, I'm proud of her. She's really turning this into something good in terms of maybe sharing the story on her own podcast, which we will keep you updated about. Yeah, we told her she's got to give us all the tea. But it's it's just so hard. I just want to point out also that her sharing this story. This could also create a trigger for someone else who's like, wait a minute. This is familiar to me. I wonder if this is the guy. And even if it's not the guy, if these are the same things that your guy is doing. Like, do you know what I mean? Maybe it could open, like make you realize that you're with someone that's a little bit more dangerous than you realized, or you might, you know, connect some dots. And so that's why sharing these stories are so helpful to others. That makes me want to reiterate, I think one of the most important lessons we can learn from the story that she talked about, letting your partner mess with your mental health. Your partner is not your doctor, your therapist, your pharmacist, your spiritual guide, they are none of those things. And if you're with, even if you're with like somebody who works in that field, a professional in that field, I think that makes it even more important to have your own professional care team that you trust to help you navigate that specific dynamic. I know healthcare is not accessible to everybody, especially in this country, but don't cut the corner by relying on your partner who tells you they know hypnotherapy or tells you you have a mental health diagnosis. Like that is such a red flag in a relationship. And we talked about it a little with her, but still there's a huge difference between someone offering you support for your mental health versus diagnosing you and telling you what you have to do. And that was his way in to manipulating her. Once the drugs were in her system, he had already planted so many seeds about her reality. He had isolated her from her people. He had taken advantage of her night terrors. And then also, obviously, he positioned himself as an expert on his personality disorder. Do you have anything else to say about the mental health thing before I go into the DID personality disorder? No, I just think he like utilizing it obviously was trash and I think he's a trash human, but whatever. Yeah, no, good point. I will co-sign that statement. Okay. So he says he has what is now classified as dissociative identity disorder. And as we were listening, I was like, yeah, okay. Like, sure. And there were a lot of things that she said that almost sounded like that can't be real. And this is the second time something like this has come up where they're like, I just have another character that is a totally different personality. But it is. And I thought one thing that was very interesting. I mean, his story makes sense. Like there is definitely he could have this multiple personality disorder. Yeah. Like who are we to say he doesn't? So let's learn about it a little and then learn about how to if you know someone who does have this or you have this, like the problem is not the mental health disorder, the problem is the weaponizing of it. So it's often something that starts from trauma. Like it's a response to trauma. It's not something that's genetic. It's you wanting to escape from a traumatic situation, which is why you shut down a part of yourself and open up a new part of yourself. So that is usually the origin. And he did talk about childhood trauma. And then what happens is when you're out of that situation, those personalities don't have the job that they were created for. So it becomes this unstable way of living your life. All of the symptoms, gaps in memory, finding yourself somewhere not knowing how you got there. There's like distorted views of your body and ability to recognize your image, a sense of detachment from your emotions, like basically just completely distorting your reality. And God, is that a vulnerable place to be. so he fabricated that for her through manipulation positioning himself as an expert as a hypnotherapist and as a patient himself well not a patient because he wasn't seeking treatment or he said he did but I don't believe that and then I mean drugging her like I cannot imagine learning about that in that whole process so I'll get ahead of it if anybody is like victim blaming in the slightest, we really are not in the same headspace that she was in. And I would hope everyone remembers that before they say anything. Yeah, you just can't. And it's so easy. Like hindsight's always 20-20. And I'm sure most, if not all, victims of anything look back and say, gosh, I wish I could have done this differently or whatever. But how are you supposed to know that in the moment? Like we've all been in situations where we've looked back and like, ah, I don't know. Your early 20s too? Yeah, come on. I mean, it's so sad that he was able to manipulate her, but he did everything that we know one can do. There's no cure for it, but there are ways to manage symptoms because a lot of the symptoms are other mental health issues. Like you become depressed, you get anxiety, which makes sense. So you can treat those. And then you can really work in therapy too. They talk about like finding ways to combine the personalities, finding ways to work through the trauma that created them. And that is something that hypnotherapy can help with. Like he was right in the way he was discussing it. So it was a good lie. Like it sucks. He was smart and she's smart. I'm so happy she's out of it. Oh my God. That's another point too, is that people who become victim to other people like this are not dumb people. You're not dumb at all. it's just it's something that happens to the smartest of people so I hope if anything like this has happened to you I just you need to know it's not because you're stupid although it's so easy to feel stupid I know yeah and he shamed her I mean he was shaming the fact that he would like make her jealous of her other personality which yes that was wild and cruel just like everything worked out for him like it was almost too good to be true until a friend helped her see the light so keep your friends close baby a hundred percent oh man thank good i loved how we talked about the way her friend helped her in a gentle way without shaming her and maintaining like her control that was great the animal abuse luckily the dog did not run into the street but what a sign what a red flag every time yeah absolutely fucking not and i i just yeah i mean there's so much we can talk about with this story but she's she's safe and i hope we can keep in touch with her as he gets out of prison because that's a scary place to be i want to know what how like can you even imagine how she must feel knowing that he's getting out soon and like that would scare the shit out of me yeah there's nothing else like I'm not going to try to be positive about it like yeah it's a very difficult situation and if you've been in a situation like that let us know what maybe has helped you and send any support to Anna we love to pass on those supportive messages our guests are anonymous but they are like in our social media family so keep that in mind and yeah they they really appreciate the support because telling these stories is something that some of them have never been able to do 100 so thank you guys you guys are great yeah we love you we do oh man thank you anna anna you're amazing i want to hang out with her let's go to england i know right we can work on our british accent hey there it is nailed it, nailed it. Seriously though, like we should. And also we want to come visit many of you. Oh, let me say this. Just, I keep forgetting self-defense. If you live in Las Vegas, in the Las Vegas area, February 22nd, it's a Sunday. We're doing a self-defense workshop there. And I'm so excited. Don't get killed club.com. And we have merch now that says things like Don't Get Kill Club. It says support women's rage, which is kind of fun. I have stickers that say my friends have my location. So you can put that on your laptop and just be like, don't get at me. I love it so much. So go to don't get kill club.com if you if you want to come. Yeah, yeah. I think that was I think that's it. I don't have anything else to you. I just love you. You guys we again, please thank you for allowing us to be a platform for you. And If you have a story to share, please email us, investigate at the datingdetectivespodcast.com. And you just send us an email. We'll get to it as soon as we can. And we would love to be near for you. So thank you for trusting us. And as always, trust your intuition. Thank you.