1364 - Will Cheated on his Now Ex-Wife Many Times and Got Caught Twice?!

Okay, is your partner never in the mood for sex? Or maybe you're the one wishing desire came a little easier. Well, just a heads up, Shameless Care, my favorite sexual health company, Shameless Care, is about to launch a brand new product later this month that supports sexual response and desire in both men and women. If you want first access plus private discounts sent right to your email, All you got to do is get on their email list now. All you got to do is go to shamelesscare.com slash strictly. There's no commitment to buy anything. You're literally just signing up for their email. So you get the discounts and you'll be in the know when their new products come out and you can unsubscribe at any time. All you got to do is go to shamelesscare.com slash strictly. Welcome to the Strictly Anonymous podcast. Strictly Anonymous podcast. conversations with online strangers we place ads online craigslist is definitely the gift that keeps on giving real people respond you go to Singapore or Thailand you can't not do it the temptation is just too much real problem does your friend know that you're banging her no he has no idea and anything goes motto of the show let your freak flag fly probably the only good advice I'll ever give you is to re-hide your whips and chain here is your host Kathy hey welcome to the Strictly Anonymous podcast with Kathy. If you want to follow the Strictly Anonymous podcast on Instagram and Twitter, go follow me. I'm at Strict Anonymous. If you want to be on the show, it's called Strictly Anonymous because I change everyone's voices. You can call me from a phony number. You can email me from a fake email. I don't care to know who you really are. I just want to hear your true story, your real story. 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The link will be in the description. Now listen, if you're looking to get on an app and look for people to have a threesome or hook up with or a couple to have sex with or you just wanna open up your relationship, I can now offer you a free trial to SDC. Okay, that's a free trial. You wanna check it out, it's sdc.com. Use my code 37712, that's 37712 or just go to the description and click the link. SDC is great. I've always been wanting to partner up with an adult dating site. I chose SDC because that's the one that most of my callers are on. and the one that most of my callers like the most. They're all over, they're worldwide. So you could go on there and meet like-minded people in your area or if you're traveling and you wanna hook up with someone on vacation, you're gonna be able to find people there. And what's also great about it is not only can you meet people on there, you could also find out about all the swinger events and swinger parties and hotel takeovers and swinger clubs and gang bangs, you name it. It's all on that site. And you get a free trial, like I said, just use my code 37712 or go to the description and click on the link and you'll be taken right there okay today i have on mark oh my god mark is one of those people that uh you might i thought reading his email he's like the worst kind of cheater imaginable and he has cheated and he cheated a lot on his wife and you will be like well kathy is a fucking douchebag he is a really bad cheater. Yeah, but you're going to get sort of the backstory on why he cheated, how he felt about cheating, what was going on in his marriage. I mean, I still think he's going to be judged. But I feel like, you know, Mark was very honest about everything on this call, the good, the bad and the ugly. And he was very aware of a lot of things much more so than I think some people who are cheating. And I appreciated that his story is super interesting. He was married for a long time. cheated throughout the marriage, talked about all of it, was busted twice or confessed. Wait till you hear those two times. And then eventually they got divorced. And now he's in another relationship and he's trying not to cheat on her. Okay, but he's a little bit stuck in his like old habits. You know, he cheated on Ashley Madison, he cheated online, he cheated with webcam girls, you know, he did that whole thing. And now he's in a new relationship. Like I said, he hasn't cheated yet but he's like maybe on his way and we talk about that too the whole story is super interesting let me know what you think about mark i appreciate his honesty uh it's a super interesting story i like cheater stories because i think that they help other people to hear like what you shouldn't do you know i think that they help uh other people especially because people are very honest to me and like he's very honest so anyway i'm gonna get right to and be right back I want Mark. This is the Strictly Anonymous Podcast. Hi, Will. Welcome to the Strictly Anonymous Podcast. How are you today? Hi, doing well, Kathy. Thanks. So listen, Will, you're a cheater. You've been cheating on your girl, well, the woman you were married to. You're not married anymore since like very early into the marriage. So I always say I love to have cheater stories on my show because I feel like you can't really judge all cheater. Cheaters, right? you can't put them all in the same category. There's, you know, very different end of the, there's like the full total philander on one side that got, and on the other side is the guy who hasn't been fucked in 15 years. And eventually he breaks down and fuck somebody, even though he's the most monogamous person. And in between you have like a lot of other kinds of cheaters, right? I don't know if which cheater you are, but you did start cheating on your wife, like very early on into your marriage and cheated a lot, right? I don't know. You are dating. Let me ask you this, because I know that you're with somebody new and you've been with that person almost two years now. Are you cheating on that person as well? It depends how you define cheating, I guess. Well, how do you define it? I think that's a great thing that we should get settled right up front. How do you define cheating? Well, I don't know. I think there is an emotional aspect to it and that's what I struggle with the most. I mean, there hasn't been any physical or verbal contact with anyone with this woman, but still there's been plenty of looking around. oh okay so so what does that mean looking around talking to people online flirting with them i don't understand no no talking just kind of like exploring what else is out there um you know getting on apps and whatever but not really talking to anyone okay but are you looking because you're hoping to meet somebody and then go meet them or are you just looking to like fulfill a need in you and you want to fulfill that so you don't actually cheat on this one Yeah, I think it's the latter. Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's missing. It's bad to say this because I do realize the things I did were wrong, and I have come through a realization. But at the same time, you kind of, I don't want to say it's an addiction, but kind of pretty close, you miss the excitement of all that. And so that's kind of where I'm at now, trying to rectify, you know, finding that same thing with a monogamous relationship. And at least so far, it's been difficult. Yeah, because listen when you wire yourself into something it's no different than like, you know starting to smoke I mean, it's disgusting at first, but the more you do it the more you get locked in and now like to quit It's like, you know, really hard, right? Because because that you form a habit, right? And so I can imagine even if you you want to get out of it You still have that itch, right? You're trying not to scratch it But it's like there and it takes a while for anything that you've been like Habitual with for a long time, right? It doesn't just go away There was like this great movie about quantum physics with this deaf lady once millions of years ago. And it talked about how we like wire ourselves into our brains. And like the only way to like unwire the wirings that we set up is to starve them. But like I'm really good at quitting things. I quit drinking. I quit smoking. I've quit a lot of things. But like to starve those things in my brain and get rid of those wirings, it took a lot of work. Like it doesn't just go away, you know. So if you cheated your whole life and it was very highly charged, which most of the time it is right. It's not just going to go away in one second just because you decide to not, you know, that you want to change or whatever. You know, that's not really how it works. People want to quit smoking, but the urge doesn't go away the next day, you know? No, absolutely. No, I agree with that completely. And I think I've heard you talk about it, too. I've got a very addictive personality. It doesn't matter what it is, but if I get into it, it's very hard to stay away from it. It just keeps kind of snowballing into something that's... Yeah, well, that's an addict personality. And anything that feels good to... I mean, listen, I'm an addict, right? So I quit drinking many years ago. And so I'm good at quitting things, but I am an addict. And so anything I like that is good, that makes me feel good feelings, like I just want more, like whether it's a song or food or whatever, you know what I mean? It's like, if it's good, I want a hundred times it. So I totally get it. But let's get your life story. Let's go back to the beginning. Before your wife, even like, were you always somebody that when you were in relationships, always like sort of cheated on the side? No, I wouldn't say that. I mean, I only dated two other people besides my wife. Okay. So that's kind of where I, I guess, developed a habit of feeling needed and validated. So I kind of always had a girlfriend from, I don't know, like sixth grade. Okay. Long-term. Yeah. Long-term girlfriend? Yeah, long-term. Okay. Yeah. So one girlfriend, like five years in high school, and then I met my now ex-wife in high school, and we did it all through college and then got married after that. So there was no real, like, dating phase. I kind of did that during my marriage. okay um so those were your but how long were each of those relationships before your your wife i mean it was really only one one was over the summer then the other one was like four or five years in high school okay but when you were with that person there was no cheating there was no looking for anyone else you were totally fine just staying with that one person yeah okay and you see that the fact that you had these relationships always typically more a relationship guy as like being needy uh well needy validation i don't know what you would call it just kind of needing the somebody else to you know to feel that affection with or something right women women i mean like oh yeah definitely women well yeah i mean better fine too but you can't get the same no no i know no so listen some guys i think a lot of guys that you know are always like sort of especially like love bombers i think like what's behind that a lot of times is like them getting like some sort of like vapid hole filled, you know, like through attention or like just sort of the thrill of trying to get someone to like them. And it must be some sort of validation, you know, insecure thing being validated on some level, right? Because why that nonsense so much for so many people, you know? So do you, can you like, if you look back and we'll get back to your story, but like if you could look back into your childhood or into like who you are, like were before all of this, like, do you, could you, do you know why maybe you were seeking validation at all? no not really i know it's always people talk about the relationship with the mother or father but what what i do know looking back and this is something i didn't find out so actually i had cheated and then had to tell my parents or whatever but my dad actually cheated on my mom and i remember i didn't know that growing up i found that out again later um but there was always like subtle uh i guess science of that you know his eyes would linger on another woman or something that type of um educational yeah well listen i think a little boy really looks up to his father right and you know here this guy is sort of always like turning his head and looking at chicks right even when he's with your mother and on some level i think you know kids are smarter than people give them credit for right like maybe you didn't know that your dad was cheating but there was this whole thing going on on some level you know it it it you knew it right i mean you didn't know the facts but you saw the signs and all that stuff and that stuff imprints on you, I think for sure. Okay, so you marry your wife. Why one year into it? What goes on? Do you just unfortunately meet someone and develop a relationship? What happened that first time one year into your relationship? Because now you're married. You never cheated before on any of your other girlfriends. Why a year into your marriage? Well, again, I think it depends on who you ask. Like, I, because like, well, again, and if you, how you define cheating, I think if you were to ask my ex-wife, she'd say, well, anything porn and above is cheating. And so there was, I didn't really get into that in high school, but then in college, we were dating long distance. That was part of the problem. But I, I remember it kind of, you know, there was that initial guilt after I look at porn and, you know, wash off in the shower or whatever. But that kind of slowly kind of went away as I, as I went on and I became more and more like I need more and more. And so I think that's when I started needing that. I don't know, you know, because when you look at porn, it's very one way. So you need the kind of interaction. And I think that's what I eventually started looking for. Because it wasn't enough. But okay, so but let's just clear up this whole cheating thing and stuff like you were married to a woman who was like, even if you look at porn, that's cheating. So that became like this sort of, maybe that's why it was so alluring to you, because it was like very naughty. I mean, because I personally don't think porn is cheating. I mean, it's like ridiculous, right? But like you were like, you just knew that that was something that you had to do in secret. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the typical story of somebody grew up religious. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, I mean, it just developed, you need more and more. Like you said, that makes it more appealing sometimes. Right. You know what I mean? Unfortunately, right? What you resist persists. So, okay, so now you're, you're doing all this stuff. And like, who's that first person? um so in my job i kind of move around a lot um and so i don't think i met somebody until i think five years into our relationship in person it started out with different sites like i don't know if you ever heard of newbie nudes no i've never heard of newbie nudes that's a good name yeah so you i know right it's catchy yeah you post it's just a bunch of people that it's nothing i guess at the time it was new but you post pictures of yourself or you and your wife you know and you can interact with the people as well that whoever's posting so that was a way that I was trying to reach out I never met anyone off of there um but then again a few years later I started going into AOL chat rooms and that's where I finally met uh the first person that I cheated on physically at least with my outside my marriage okay listen uh the good news is sex is a learned skill. Okay. 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There's a guilt porn star. There's a girl that fucked her best friend's mom from high school. All those stories are in the book and they're all true. Think Penthouse Forum meets my show. That's the vibe of the book. I am giving anyone who buys my book complimentary access to my private discord, which is super fun. The only way you get in is through me. If you purchase the book, send me a pic of your screenshot. Email it to me. It's strictly anonymous. podcast at gmail.com and I'll send you a private link to my discord. So if you want to buy the book, just go to the description and click on the link. I never met anyone off of there. But then again, a few years later, I started going into AOL chat rooms. And that's where I finally met the first person that I cheated on physically, at least with my outside my marriage. How what was going on with you you and your wife like your wife in the bedroom like as far as your guys sex life well i mean kind of whenever i asked where we would have it but it always felt this is probably a typical story here from nine who cheated always felt like i was the one asking for you know like a sex addict but on top of that um we we have four kids and in that time she was having babies and so that was kind of where her focus was yeah um so i lost the attention and she didn't want to have sex because of the baby. So I think that was a huge part of it as well. Of course, that's a big part, especially for a guy that's like admits that, you know, he gets his validation from the woman in his life, right? And I think that that happens a lot to guys. I mean, they become second fiddle. And as a woman who has a kid, I understand why the guy gets kicked to the side, you know what I mean? But I think it's hard for the guys, you know, to sort of deal with that. And it's hard for the women to juggle that because, you know, how is that guy supposed to feel when they become sort of in your case, like fifth wheel, right? You got four kids. Yeah, and it became easy. And after all this happened, during the divorce, we actually talked about this stuff. And she's like, shit, if I would have just looked at your credit card statements, I could have found all that. We'll get into Ashley Madison, all that stuff and cam girls. But it's like, if I would have just paid attention to the finances, I would have been able to catch this much earlier on. And I think she was very idealistic. And like my husband would never cheat on me. That's something that these horrible people do. And then I think, you know, eventually she figured that wasn't the case. But it was it almost became easy to cheat on her. I think it almost became a point. And again, I don't think this is anything new where the guilt was getting so great as like, shit, I just I want you to catch me cheating. You know, so I can get over with this. So, yeah, I always warn people like when I have cheaters on my show, I always am the most worried for the cheaters who feel guilty because I'm like on some level. your subconscious is going to sabotage. Like, because on some level, what's happening in your brain is you are saying, like, you don't want to do this. You want to stop. So the universe will provide. It's like the person that talks about them hating their job every day and then they get fired. Well, what did you fucking expect was going to happen? You know what I mean? And so it's like the cheaters that don't feel guilty are never the ones that get caught. It's always the ones that feel guilty because on some level, if you have a part of yourself that wants to stop and you don't hold your head up high and stop yourself, Well, then, you know, it's going to happen for you. And it did, you know, but I mean, I don't know if she caught you. But let me ask you this, because you said before that your wife was like very like idealistic. Now, you know, I sometimes think, you know, maybe she didn't want to know at that time, you know what I mean? Because like, would, if she would have known, because sometimes it's like, it seems very obvious, right, to some people, or when you see certain divorces that like, oh, my God, like, how did that person not know that this was going on? But don't you think on some level, sometimes some people don't want to know the truth? Because if they did, they'd have to do something about it. And maybe like in the middle of having four kids or even two kids, like the last thing she wanted to do was blow up her fucking marriage and her idealistic life. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean, so actually you have to confess twice, right? I chose to confess, however you look at it. But the first time was after she just after she had her second kid. Yeah. And it was kind of like, what do you expect me to do? I mean, I can't divorce you. I have nothing. You know, she wasn't working. I was the breadwinner and stuff like that. But on top of that, besides, yes, her not wanting to know, I was also very, very good at gaslighting and all those other tricks that cheaters generally use. So it just, I think those two things combined, yeah, I think you're right. She probably didn't really want to know. Yeah, well, deniers always wind up with gaslighting. I mean, it's the perfect pairing, right? You were telling her what she wanted to hear because she didn't want to do anything about it. Like, you're both wrong. I'm not saying anyone's worse, you know, of course, she's more of the victim, right? And you're doing it. But I'm like, that is sometimes the perfect pairing, right? Because you're telling her exactly what she wants to hear, because the last thing she wants to do is to leave, right? And so and you probably didn't want her to leave you either. So of course, you're going to say you're of course, you're going to fucking gaslight her, you know, I mean, and say what she wants, because did you want your relationship to blow up? No, absolutely not. I mean, and even, and it, so towards the end of our marriage, I worked really hard at, you know, trying to get it back and whatever. And then when I did, you know, I was back in the bedroom, you know, and I was like, what the hell am I doing? I don't want to be married to this woman. And obviously she doesn't want to be married to me either. So I think I just, for a while, I just stayed in that repetition, you know, of going out and doing my things, then feeling bad, coming back and then getting annoyed. You know, finding minute things wrong with our relationship and using that as an excuse to go back out, you know, and continue to cheat. So, yeah, totally. That makes a lot of sense. So that first person you meet them on a chat, right? And then you wind up meeting in person. And that's the first time that you do something physical with someone, correct? Yeah, and that was, I don't know, I think I mentioned it. And then it's to you, but I was, she was a nurse. Yeah, you said that. I always, yeah, I figured you want to see my dick or me masturbating. And it always turned to like, well, let me see that ass. And so I think she had a fixation with that for some, which was fine. And that kind of introduced me early on to my ass and how good it felt. But that's, yeah, that was kind of an interesting first meet up with someone going that direction instead of just like, you know, full on sex or blowjobs or something like that. Yeah, you did use a word that freaks me out. And it's like spectrum. I mean, she would put that inside you. I don't know why I don't like that kind of shit. She opened it up like two inches. I think I'm still recovering from that. But she definitely had a weird kink, let me tell you. The fact that she was a nurse and she was into this spectrum shit, right? Don't you think? Yep. No, I agree. And again, I mean, I really liked it. And so after that, I started exploring with, I remember using my wife's dildo in my ass. Oh, my God. I was like, holy shit, this actually feels good. Yeah, is that crazy? How many guys don't know? I mean, like as a woman who's always been a three input girl, I'm always kind of like, why wouldn't a guy try? Listen, I think a lot of guys have tried and they just don't cop to it. And then there's like that other percentage of guys that never have. And they probably should because like, what's the big fucking deal? Like it feels really good, you know, and no guy has ever tried and been like, oh, that was the worst thing. Oh my God, it was incredible, right? Yep. Yeah. And did your wife ever caught you like stealing her sex toys? No. Okay. No. I mean, again, like looking back, it's just there was a complete obliviousness to it. She just didn't want to know. I mean, gaslighting. She was busy with the kids. Like she just now just no clue whatsoever. Yeah. OK, so you're with how long were you? Did you hook up with that nurse lady? Like what did you ever have any kind of affair? Was it always just sex? No, I mean, that really wasn't emotional. It was just more physical in nature. It wasn't until. gosh yeah like a year or two after that is when i had my first kind of emotional and physical affair and that's that was based you know off of somebody i met off of ashley madison okay so you moved on to there like after let me wait let's stay with the nurse so like you know the first time you do hook up with her and everything like do you feel really guilty do you start feeling guilty immediately does the guilt come way later i mean it came a little bit after i came and then more so when i out in the car afterwards. That's what always happens, right? When you're in the moment, like the buildup, it's exciting, then you realize what happened. Yeah. I don't know, it just kind of all becomes clear. But yeah. Yeah. Listen, when you're horny, it's like you're drunk, right? You're not thinking properly. Like you're not in the reality, right? And then after you come, you're like, what the fuck, right? You're bad. You snap right into it. It's like you get sober real fast. So you felt guilty though, immediately the first time. Yeah. The first time. Then it started to wear off the more I did it. Yeah. And that's typical. And then, But then towards the end, it came up again, you said, right? Towards the end? Towards the end of my marriage? I don't know. You said at some point towards the end, you started to feel really guilty again. Did it come back up again at some point that you wanted to stop, like you just couldn't do it anymore? Didn't you say that? Cheating? Yeah. No. Cheating took the divorce to realize I didn't have to cheat anymore. I could just go out and date. Yeah. I mean, I don't think the guilt ever really kind of fully surfaced. Well, then why did I go through my whole speech about the guilty people getting busted? It's just wasting my time. No, it isn't. That wasn't you. You didn't feel guilty. You only felt guilty the first couple of times. Then it was off to the races. Well, it was just so easy. I mean, the more you did it, you felt that guilt. But the more you're just like, oh, I can just flush it. And, you know, there was less and less time between I did it. I feel guilty. Let's go on to the next adventure. You know, it just became less and less over time. Well, I think that that's very typical. That typically happens. I was just thinking I could also see the story where eventually over time, maybe that guilt creeps back in. I don't think it would stay the whole time. You know what I mean? But typically they feel guilty right in the beginning. And then it goes away the more you do it because it just becomes like whatever every day. And especially if you're getting away with it, right? Yeah. I mean, so the last person I cheated with was the two-year affair that got like, holy shit, let's get married and leave our lives as we know it. And so after that all happened, yeah, there was definitely some level of guilt because that involved leaving my kids and all that. So there was some guilt in there, but not when I was kind of playing around with people off and on. Okay. And you got caught twice, right? You said when did the first time you get caught? Like, or was it around the nurse time? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't me getting caught. It was me confessing to my wife because I wanted to relieve myself of it. So, yeah, this was a short affair. this lasted i think i saw her i don't know two times maybe three she used email she sent me an email her husband caught her and um her husband's like you know you need you need to confess whatever so she did i i felt equally i guess responsible or i don't know what i was doing so i confessed to my wife i think i hoped that i would get with this woman who i'd only met like two or three weeks before um and like long-term type of thing but obviously that that didn't work out so yeah so that was the first time i confessed didn't really get caught and then the second time yeah a little bit more you could how soon after the like the the nurse was that situation that you'd like wind up confessing like how long into your cheating uh like a year probably really and you literally just told her you didn't have to she didn't catch you and like what was her reaction uh it was kind of like what am i gonna do i mean again this was right after she had her second baby she's like the fuck am i supposed to do you know i mean i i have nowhere to go you know there's nothing no recourses for me um so yeah i mean that's i think i told her hoping that she would say oh you're a piece of shit i can't be married to anymore we need to divorce and then i could you in my fantasy land go be with this woman that they got two weeks ago oh my god that's kind of how my thinking was back then yeah very passive aggressive like you couldn't just take control of your own life you just figured you would i don't know mess up everybody else's in the process yeah basically it's very selfish yeah yeah yeah um okay so she stays with you how does she like is she the type of woman that was able to just like completely like turn it off and just like go on with your lives or did she was she very distrustful afterwards and it took a long time before she could trust you? And did she resent you for a while? Or did she just like, you know, turn it off and pretend it never happened and move on? Yeah, I think the latter. She was very good at compartmentalizing. Later on, she went through a lot of therapy. So did I. We'll see if it actually helps in the long run. But she kind of realized that her mother had done the same shit that I had with the gaslighting and, you know, kind of treating her. So she was groomed as a child to kind of marry the piece of shit like, again, how I was acting at the time. Yeah, it's unfortunate. And you became your dad. And you became your dad. I mean, we all live out that shit, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. So she was, you know, sometimes I admire those kinds of women, but there is like a sickness sort of attached to it, you know, that she could just completely like detach from this thing that happened, right? Because in a way, like you never, she never probably really dealt with it, right? So it was there on some level. Yeah. So afterwards, again, when we kind of had actual conversations about this as we were getting divorced. I didn't realize, but besides the postpartum, right, that happens after most women have kids, she had severe depression in one of the times we lived overseas. And so I think she was at the brink of kind of ending things. And again, this is not something that she really told me. I just found out later. So yeah, I didn't realize at the time, I just kind of figured she was figuring out her way to get through it. But now this definitely did affect her to a great degree. Yeah, sad. And it's interesting how two people could live together, have all these kids do everything together, yet no one's like telling each other how they feel at all. You know what I mean? Like these major things are happening and neither person has any clue about it, right? It's like... No, and that's... 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Go there now and use my code strictly for 30% off your entire order. Two roommates, you know, and it just got to the point where I kind of was able to validate my cheating. You know, like I'm not getting anything out of this relationship. We have to be together for the kids. And so I'm just going to keep doing this. So, yeah, the communication across the board was just complete shit. Yeah, it's funny you called yourself Mark because the other guy I talked to taped today, his name is Mark, too. you need to listen to his episode because he was in a similar marriage, no sex, whatever, but now they're hot wiping. But like the difference between what him and his wife did compared to what you and your wife do, it would be really interesting for you to listen. Right. And like I was saying to him, like, wow, your story is so interesting and great for other people to hear, you know, because they sort of tended to their issues outside of the bedroom. Right. Cause what's happening in the bedroom is typically most of the time, not the problem inside the bedroom. Right. It happens way before outside of the bedroom. Right. Like how were you and your wife ever going to have great sex when you guys weren't even talking about anything, you know what I mean? Together really, right? Where you were keeping huge parts of yourselves from each other. So where's the intimacy? And that doesn't help anyone's sex life. So, all right. So you call up to her, she sleeps in under the rug. And now, I mean, it sounds like you went on to Ashy Madison, you were doing cam girls. Like you said, she could have just looked at your credit card and seen all the stuff that you're doing. So like, just explain like all the other things that you were doing behind her back. Yeah. I mean, that was a big thing. And, um, I mean, besides like cheating, I do regret cam girls. Cause I think that, I think over time that, that, that took away like 10 grand for my bank account. Well, so one of them was, and again, it's just, it's like addiction that I get, you know, I just fall for people and I fell for this cam girl and you know, we kind of chatted and I found out where she lived. And so we eventually met up and I, I gave her a few thousand dollars. I'm sure she used it for, you know, not the purposes I was hoping she would. But anyways, it just like, again, when I look back on that, like, holy shit, I met this woman. I just gave her, you know, thousands of dollars. I don't know. So, yeah, cam girls, Ashley Madison. Those were kind of the big things that kept me busy for about five years or so. What kind of women were on Ashley Madison? Like were these women, like I get the cam girls, probably a young girl, maybe that just wants some cash. I don't know. But like were the women on Ashley Madison typically like in your same situation, were they typically married women or were there more single women on there looking for like no strings attached guys? I don't know. You tell me. Yeah. No, the ones I met were married. They're a situation that they were looking for some, I don't know, validation or some, you know, pay attention to me type of thing. So that's most of the women that I met on there. There were a few. And there was actually, I mean, that's when I got introduced to Hot Wife, too. I remember meeting a woman who basically said, yeah, my husband gives me a pass to go out and, you know, have sex with whoever I want. Oh, wow. Yeah, which I thought she was lying. But then I realized, you know, after meeting other people like that, that's actually a thing. Can you believe what a thing that is? I can't believe what a thing that is. It's a big thing. Yeah. It's crazy. But I guess that would be a good place for people to go on. But I would assume, though, that it's other married women. But I would also assume that they like other, you know, Ashley Madison because they know that that other person on the other side is probably married, too, and has just as much to lose. So no one's going to blow each other's lives up, right? Like they also want to be very on the DL, right? But they're not happy at home either. So you were typically seeing married women as well. Yeah, for the most part, married women. Yeah. And yeah, so just different, you know, and sometimes those relationships that lasted for 12 hours. Sometimes, you know, like that last one, they went two years, just different variations. Yeah. We mostly met up in hotel rooms. Once in a while in a car, went to one woman's house. So just different variations of it. Do you protect yourself with condoms with everybody? No, I never did. I never did. And that's okay. So there's maybe three things I regret. And that's one of them. I gave my, I gave my wife at the time an STI and I was able to excuse it. That came from, because remember, I had confessed to her before, and so I was able to say, no, I probably got this from her. What STI did you give her? I can't remember, but she had to go in and get surgery to get something taken care of. Yeah, it was pretty fucked up. Oh, my. And let me ask you this, and I know you're going to be honest because you're anonymous, and this is why having people call me up anonymously is so great, because they just tell me the truth. you know like after that whole thing did you start using condoms or did you continue to like fuck around without anything anyway uh without anything yeah can you believe i couldn't i couldn't i couldn't stay hard with the damn thing on and i think that was maybe my conscience telling me like look dude you probably shouldn't be fucking random women but yeah so it didn't stop you no and i didn't i didn't know there was such a thing as viagra out there either that i could kind of use to make sure things would work so yeah i just continued to do it without it oh my god i just like pray that you didn't get another thing. Yep. Wow. But you did give her something and it was like soon enough or at a time where you were able to, you know, use it, like use the first time you confessed. Why did you confess the second time? Oh, the second time. So yeah, that's, that's a, that's a bit a different issue the second time. Um, this was a woman that I, I actually really, really wanted to marry. And then I said, hey, we're going to do this. You tell your husband, I'll tell my wife, we'll leave our kids or she'll take whatever. We'll figure this out. And then the next day I called her back and said, yeah, this isn't going to work. And within a week, I got a text from her husband saying, hey, I want to talk. So I guess she had told her husband after I dumped her, said, hey, this isn't going to work about everything and who I was. And so he reached out to me. And so you felt like, did he threaten to tell your wife and that's why you decided to tell her? No. So, um, he called and he's like, Hey man, thanks for picking up. You know, at least you're not a complete piece of shit. And I tried to explain to him, I really don't want to tell my wife, she's going through a lot of things. Um, so I'd rather you not. And he, at the time he agreed, I think part of that was me trying to protect myself. And then there was a small part of it. Like, actually, you know, my wife can't take this anymore. You know, the depression that i found out about all that stuff so let's just leave it alone but then three months later uh he reached out again this time to her i intercepted the yeah my wife i intercepted that it was on facebook and i intercepted the message and like what the fuck man i thought we had you know a deal and uh he's like nah man you know i need to tell your wife i was like okay fuck it at this point let's just get it all out there and so he uh was able to contact her they had you know discussion i think i think after i don't know after a little bit i realized he was trying in some way to get back at me um but yeah why you think he was a feeling for your wife oh my god that's the meanest thing to do to another like i don't think ever like i don't know i i know somebody recently who did the same thing and like was cheating with the person then when they got caught with their person they thought oh i gotta tell the other person i'm like i don't that's like terrible yeah yeah you fucking hated your guts of course he was trying to get you back you blew up his fucking marriage he wanted to do the same to you i did but but you know how his wife and this is not an excuse i'm just okay no no i want the details yeah yeah yeah so so the reason his wife is on ashley madison in the first place yeah is he wanted to do the hot wife thing he put her on there wanting to have some good fucker and they got to the point where they were ready to meet some dude and they shut it off it's and it's kind of a typical thing right like you know guys like i want to do this i want to do this and then they're like can't do it at the last minute and i think you've kind of talked to people that get past that and realize this is an amazing thing yeah well he was stuck on that so he he kind of pulled it back and she's you know without telling him obviously he's like fuck this i want to go fuck some people so she you know put her an individual profile back on Ashken Madison. And that's how I met her. Right. But who cares about that? The fact that I mean, anyone in like, listen, you listen to enough stories, like if you want to ever go in and have like be in the lifestyle with any of your future partners, if anybody decides at any point that they're not into something full stop for for all people involved, it doesn't make her any more right that she continued on just because he put put on the brakes like if someone can't handle it and they decide when they're like right in front of it like that they can't like you have to stop like that doesn't the other person shouldn't be like well you're the one that brought it up so i'm gonna just fucking go do it like it doesn't there's not there's no excuse for the fact that she went and did that behind his back right no absolutely yeah yeah i mean come on um so that poor guy oh my god poor guy i want him on my show that's a good you know sort of story for a hot wife and gone wrong because like it is fucked up right i mean like that somebody you know that's like a really interesting story that like he put the stops but she was like oh you know the train left the station for her and she's like was so horny to fuck another guy that she's like sorry i'm gonna do it yeah that was actually kind of interesting i mean i i've stopped reaching out to her because obviously that's fucked up i think she's still married and trying to make it work or whatever okay but but about like two years ago maybe three years i can't i can't remember um we had chatted a little bit on the phone and she had talked about like told him the only question he asked was like well did he like it and then after that he's like you can fuck anyone else but this guy basically so i don't know if they you know went back in a hot wife or not but yeah oh my god wait after he found out that she had cheated on him he gave her another pass and said okay just go do it but i want to know but just don't fuck that guy that guy just doesn't know how to speak up for himself he's just a fucking mess that guy he's going to get cheated on again because he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing but wait a second you kind of fell for her though how long were you seeing her for oh my god well so i mean again the problem is it was an over it was a long distance relationship we didn't live in the same place okay um and it lasted two years but i only saw her in person three times but the and you talk about like well what's the kind of what's the draw of cheating is we had like an amazing at least what we thought because it was all sexual i mean yeah sure we talked about our spouses and all that shit but it was really just like sexual and i mean the things that she would say i mean remember she said something to the effect of like i want to mark you so your wife can see it like you know she was a nurse too and she's like i want to take a scalpel to you and make you bleed and then we talked about you know like what we would do if we had a weekend together so like i'd lock you in my dungeon for two days and not let you out and shit like that so just like really going deep into those fantasies that i'd never done before was kind of what was leading me into like this one was amazing I mean you know so in the sack right but you didn't really have much like like the whole thing and all the communication was very sexual in nature all the time or did it turn into like you were just like becoming friends too I would assume yeah no we didn't but again I mean I thought it was all a fantasy because I never spent any actual time with her three times and you were ready to like leave your life three times and the thing was again my conscience was fucking with my dick like the sex was actually not that great any of the three times so yeah it was no it wasn't like amazing passionate any of that stuff it was just not it just didn't work so yeah really do you think it was like so much build-up and then when you got there just what like what made it not so great after all that kind of build-up and all that fantasy talk and all that kind of role playing you know via texting this whole time like why did it not was it not good in real life I don't know. Again, my conscience just wouldn't let me get hardened. Oh, you couldn't get... All right. So there was guilt somehow, but you just weren't maybe in touch with it, but your dick was in touch with it. Right? Oh, my God. And so when your wife gets the news from him, is that when she finally couldn't sleep in under the table anymore? Yeah. I mean, that's when... And again, at this time, we were overseas, so she was away from our friends and family, and she was like, all right, you need to sleep in a different bedroom and stuff like that. I mean, that was two years before we finally came back to the States and went through the actual divorce process. But yeah, that was the beginning of the end. Sure. Right. And at that point, did she have like lots of questions? Like, did you gaslight her again? Like, how did you guys get through it for two years? God, no, she didn't have very many questions. I feel like she asked like five or six when I was in. And yeah, well, I don't know if she didn't want to know the specifics or what, but yeah, she really didn't ask a lot of questions, which for me, if I was in the opposite situation, I would have wanted to know everything. How big is it? Did you enjoy it? How long did you fuck? Where did you do it? But none of that from her. So yeah. I think everyone has different coping skills. I like to know, but I think some people don't want to know. And her type of personality, it sounds like the less she knows, the better. So I think the details would have worked against her. You know what I mean? I think it was better for her type of personality, maybe not to know, to go on for those next two years. I mean, for those next two years, like what eventually happened that led to the final straw where you actually guys did get divorced? If like, it wasn't the cheating that time, you know, which is a very big thing. Like what happens two years later that you guys finally pulled the trigger on something that probably should have happened, you know, many years prior. Yeah, no, she came back to the US and found out there's all these men out there that want to date women. And I mean, she was introduced to the dating. I was like, holy shit, there's a bunch of dudes out here that want to. So I think that was pretty quick. Like, I don't need to stay with my husband anymore. Oh, that's interesting. Wait, so this whole time that this is happening, you guys are overseas. So she doesn't have access to guys. You do because you're traveling and stuff. Is that why you were getting all this action? No, it's actually stopped. There's two years over there. I stopped. Yeah, because at the beginning of the two years is when everything hit the fan. and she had this conversation with the woman's husband that I had a friend with. And so for two years, we were kind of trying to figure things out, get a little bit better and then get worse and back and forth. So I mean, I don't think I was actually cheating at the time for those two years. Okay. Right. I know that you did say you did some like escorting stuff, but like it was like overseas where it was legal, correct? Yeah. And so you saw also people like that. So you weren't just seeing like these, like the, because all we've really heard about was like maybe three people. Like how many people total do you think you cheated on your wife with? I don't know, like 25, 30. Right, right. And some people were like quickies, right? One-offs. Like I think you said, like some people even no longer than 10 minutes, some people longer, like the nurse and the woman from Ashley Madison, right? Yeah, most of them were. There was probably one other woman that I was with for like a year, but everyone else was very short term. Right. And then she came to you for the divorce? like who just rose their hand and said like hey like let's fucking end things yeah i mean she kind of said look i mean we could stay together but i'm always gonna have one foot out the door and so i think it really yeah it's like who wants to be in that relationship so no but i mean what set off that conversation like that doesn't come out out of nowhere like was it just like you got back to the states and like you guys weren't talking and you were very distant like how does that conversation come up no i mean we went through counseling I did myself she did herself and then we went together and kind of throughout that she just kind of kept saying the same thing over and over okay so there was a mediator there and she started to cop to being honest about her feelings like you guys finally started to communicate yeah no absolutely yeah interesting right and you found out she wasn't happy she found out she wasn't happy I mean were you like sort of living a lie in that you were like saying you wanted to stay in the relationship or were you copping to the fact that maybe you weren't that interested in it either like where was your head at when she was like talking to you about this kind of stuff yeah no i was absolutely lying to myself like i need to stay together i need to do this one you know the kids and all that stuff i actually love her then once i was able to like get to that point like what the fuck am i doing i don't love this woman like look at the last 15 years what i've been doing her so right it kind of bounced back and forth between realization and you know back into the fantasy of what the marriage was yeah wow how how old were your kids when you guys got divorced were they way older at this point no they were i don't know five to twelve okay and did you call like with the divorce like you know amicable was it really bad i mean do you have a good relationship with her now yeah i have a much better relationship We used a mediator. Uh huh. So it was pretty amicable. Yeah, I mean, and we kind of, you know, argued a lot. It helps because she remarried and now has kids with her new husband Uh huh So that kind of takes away that emotional like there any possibility of ever making things work and getting back together So that helped a lot And what happened to your life after your divorce? I kind of jumped into dating pretty quickly. I mean, because you're a guy that likes to have a woman in his life, right? So like, how do you feel when you're like newly single? Like, did you, did you get, I mean, I'm assuming she got the house. Like, where'd you move to? Yeah, she got the house. I live in an apartment. So, yeah, I just, I started dating women. I would jump into it like, oh, I love this woman. Two months later, I can't stand this woman. And that kind of continued for a few years until, it's funny, I mean, I don't think this is the first time you've heard this, but talking to my therapist who became my unofficial dating counselor or whatever, I explained to her like, you know, my pattern. And she said, I know you're not going to expect this from me. Have you ever thought of, you know, non-monogamy? What the fuck are you talking about? I was like, yeah, you know, that's something that I've heard plenty of people that come through here say is actually. And so I tried to do that a little bit. But, again, I hadn't built a foundation. I tried to do that with a girlfriend. And she kind of wasn't into it. And then it just didn't work out. But, yeah. And there's other things, too, that I tried. But, yeah. Likewise. Mostly just kind of dating women. Likewise. Likewise. Well, I met. so i went on field for a little bit and i met a couple um and you know the typical like hey i want my wife the hot wife thing but i also like to be friends with the guy this is this is the guy talking um and so i thought about it was like i don't want to do it but we can be friends and so i actually hung out with him a few times and then he kept saying like you know my wife really wants to meet you hang out with you and so we did hung out at a bar drank a little bit and then i took her back to my apartment and fucked her um and actually i still hang out with the guy but i don't hang out with the woman anymore so i kind of tried that but yeah why not the woman why it was in a one and done oh because i just didn't you know we had sex and then she went home i was like this is not fulfilling for me whatsoever yeah interesting desire to always have that you know like a woman's day of night with me type of thing which is i guess what you're looking for what's that well But you want to connect, I would assume maybe as a guy, listen, I don't think there's anything wrong with somebody wanting to be in a relationship, especially when you're older and you have kids and, you know, what are you going to do every night? Go to bars like when you're 25. You know, I think it's much better to be in a relationship when you're older than not, right? I mean, you know, my brother just went through this his second divorce and he just dated like fucking mad until he got another girl and she's moving in. And I understand it, you know, because what else is he going to do? You know, hang out with his friends like he's not 25 anymore. It's a different phase of life. So I could, I would understand if like you're, you're trying to find somebody to pair up with again, right? Right. Yeah. And that's, that's kind of where I am with this woman actually. And this is something that I've tried to, you know, cause I realized I had cheated for two decades. And so I'm trying to figure out, do I need to tell the woman that I'm dating? Hey, I'm a cheater. You know, I know a lot of women, not a lot, I shouldn't say that, but some women do have trauma or whatever you want to call it, you know, from past relationships. And some are like, I'm just not interested in that whatsoever. Fine, you did in the past, but I just will never be able to trust you. And so I tried to figure out a happy medium of, you know, hey, I have four kids, I'd love to do this. I also cheated on my wife for two, you know, for 20 years. Like the first time we talked versus maybe wait a few dates before I throw the information out. But did you throw that stuff out to this girl, the one you've been with for 18 months? I did. She seems to trust me. She's very independent. We don't spend really that much time together. We don't live together. She really hasn't asked much about the cheating. Like you said, I don't really want to know about it. I don't want to worry about it all the time. Great, it happened. Let's move on. Right. Now, in the perfect world, do you think you'd do better in a non-monogamous relationship? Or do you think if you found the right person and you were more honest with them and you didn't make all the mistakes that you did with your first wife, that you would be able to be monogamous with somebody? uh i struggle with jealousy so much that i don't know that i would ever be able to get over that again that's one of the reasons why i listen to your podcast and others about how non-monogamous you know guys are just not jealous with their partners and you know because i think based on my patterns like the non-monogamy thing would likely be i think what i'm looking for you know instead of just one person fulfilling all my needs and, you know, find multiple ones. But I don't know. At this point, I think, I think I'm still struggling to figure out which one would work best for me. Well, you got to see where that sort of, where those needs are coming from. Are they coming from, because listen, there are just some people and, and it's interesting. I had this woman, Dr. Janna on, who's like an NYU PhD, like scientist there that does has done studies and, you know, they, there's studies that show that a lot of people are non-monogamous by nature just the way that they're wired you know it's like you have to wonder to yourself and i'm sure you deal with this in therapy like is your sort of need for quote-unquote validation maybe it's not that maybe it's just that you are more non-monogamous and that would be right for you or is are you seeking all this outside of stuff because you're trying to fill like i said a vapid hole and that's something that you need to fill up yourself right those are two different things right no i mean I think I actually took her a survey for talking about the same person. Oh, you did? Yeah. I did, yeah. And that kind of made me think, like, which one am I? I can't just sit in the middle for the rest of my life. You know, you got to figure out and choose. I know there's variations of it. There are, yeah. Yeah, so... Have you discussed any kind of fantasies or role-playing or anything with the girl you're with now? Yeah, but it always... I think she had a really shitty relationship with her ex-husband, and there was kind of some major issues there. And so I've talked about in passing, you know, non-monogamy and stuff like that. I think to her, it felt like I was attacking her in a way. I don't know. Those conversations didn't go very well. So, maybe in the future. But, yeah. So, what are you doing, though, behind your back that you said? Because, you know, it was like, what is cheating? Are you doing like camcorder? Or what are you doing on the side now? Because you're doing something to get your needs fulfilled, right? Yeah, I mean, it's, I did. You're right. I did. So it's, I mean, besides the typical pornography, I've so far been able to stay away from cam girls. Cause again, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. So positive progress, I guess, but it's jumping on these apps and just kind of like testing the waters. oh right that's what I don't talk to anybody but it's like yeah I've been on Ashley Madison I've been on field I even go on like the regular dating apps just to see who's out there um so yeah I mean that I continue to ask myself dude why are you doing this you have a very satisfying relationship yeah just why is this urge continuing to come up yeah and you still see your therapist right yeah occasionally yeah maybe you should still see it because listen do you really like this new woman that you're with do you plan on maybe like having her move because she doesn't live with you right no not yet she's she's um yeah she's very independent whatever but do you plan on like becoming closer with her and like building a life together do you see a future with her oh yeah i mean she's amazing she's not judgmental she's trusting the sex is actually the best sex i've ever had in my life wow i mean just like all that yeah i mean it's all the things are pretty amazing i just don't i don't have as much time with her as as i would like and so that's when i'm like well maybe you know i had extra partners but at this point that would be cheating because she's not interested in the dog why aren't you guys like spending more time together why haven't you like had her move in or anything like that so that you're not you don't have all that alone time to go looking on these fucking apps well she doesn't want to rush into a marriage i mean again the last one she had to get married she well she's got her kids full time too so it doesn't offer as much full time yeah so that's when i i'm trying to be empathetic but also like shit if you need this much time from the individual is this woman really that perfect of a match for you so yeah right because it's maybe it's that alone time that you just find yourself bored you know what i mean and you have nothing to going on that you go and you know you you follow these old patterns of yours that's not good you know not to say that like you you know she needs to move in so you're not that way but like you know like i said i understand at a certain an age like wanting to have somebody there with you more long term long term right and closer to you that you could see them like how often do you see her like twice a week or something okay that's not bad that's not bad yeah you should be seeing your therapist more maybe just to find out because you don't want like her to like you know catch you like i don't know how else you could sort of let her you know you've kind of been very upfront with her about who you are and everything but you are doing these things online like going and looking and like where does that lead to and where does that stop and when does that stop you know yeah because i i find myself continuing to kind of push the envelope as far as i can get and it's only a matter of time before i fall back into my old pattern so yeah i'm trying to like do i need to tell her all this so she just becomes more worried so she has to kind of keep an eye on me or so i figure this shit out for myself or do I move on? Yeah, kind of at a... Yeah, you have to, I think you got to talk to your therapist more. Like I said, you have to see where all this stuff is coming from. Like I said, is it coming from a, you're just the type of person that needs variety a lot and stuff. But like, I don't know, it's not like she's living with you and you're seeing her all the day. Like, you know, it sounds like maybe it's, you know, because she's not there and given that time and you have nothing going on, that this is just like your go-to pattern of behavior that you have used to take up your time. You know what I mean? Like maybe get a fucking hobby or something else, you know, to do instead of going on those apps when you're just bored. You know, it might be just that kind of a thing, you know, maybe it's not, I don't know so much it's about her, but you have to see where that's coming from. And maybe like, you know, you would be, it would be helpful to have like a real therapist like once a week, that kind of thing really can help in times like this. So you can figure it out because you don't want to fuck up this relationship, you know, especially if you want to move forward eventually. and be closer with her, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Because you don't want to follow your old patterns, but they just might be lingering around because, you know, they're there. You don't know, you know, but I think a therapist can help with that. You've been in therapy before, obviously. You say you see your therapist sometimes, like what is it, like once a month? Yeah, like once every two months. I was going every week for a while, and then I thought I had everything figured out, but Yeah, I mean, I think really good. You got to listen to the Mark guys thing, because you know, they went to therapy and the and you know, it really helps. And they still see a therapist through their time and everything. And I think, you know, a lot of times what people don't understand if you understand it, because you went to therapists, it's like, I could say a million things to you, your best friend could say something to you. But the stuff that a real therapist that's really fucking smart and knows their shit, you know, could tell you is could be life changing, you know, and so maybe if you're like, continue to talk to somebody, you could get to the root of your stuff and figure things out because it's still not clear for you, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, and you need to get clear because then you could see what you want, you know, and especially for this girl, then you can maybe have more conversations with her. I give you credit for being honest with her, you know, about all that stuff, but you don't want to fuck this one up. It's been 18 months, but like what happens two years from now, like eventually do you need to, do you start meeting somebody that you're looking on those apps? You know, does it just stop with you perusing? Like who knows? you know that's the slippery slope yeah yeah absolutely yeah you're tempting yourself yeah no and it's it's i'm pretty much as close as i can get without diving back into it yeah i mean because i really do feel like i've done the work or whatever you want to call it i don't think it's completely finished but i think i have made some positive strides so yeah it would be pretty sure to go back on everything yes it'd be such a waste to have gone through everything with your ex-wife I'm sure you both learn stuff about yourself, right? And everything that you did there and then had to go through that whole breakup. And now you're finally in a new thing. You have to have had evolved on some level, right? To have like, you know, through all these kinds of changes you've been through. So you don't want to take a step backwards, you know? You want to keep continuing to grow better. And it does sound like you don't want to go back to that behavior. You're not like a person that thinks that what you did was right. You don't want to do it again, you know? so maybe you might need a little help. Like I said, it just could just be a bad habit and sometimes it's hard to quit shit, you know? Yeah, it's not especially with my personality. You got addict. I'm an addict. I get it. You know, you got it. It's like you against you, you know, you gotta like, you gotta mind fuck yourself and it's not, it's not, uh, easy, especially if you have an addict personality and you can use the help, you know? So just go back to therapy and, uh, you know, and really talk things out so you could get more clear on where the, kind of itch is coming from and why you still need to scratch it and you know how what you could do to maybe not let that you know fuck up this relationship yeah no i think obvious makes a lot of sense yeah but listen thanks so much for calling in and being so honest about you know this whole story i think these kinds of stories are super important for people to hear you know on paper if people didn't hear all the details you're like sound like one of the worst cheaters imaginable. But you know, you like talking like having talked to you for a whole hour, like there's a human being behind the the, you know, the sort of salacious stories that go on here, right? But like, and I think that that's like important when people hear the whole story, I think people feel might feel differently about you, right? Like if they just read like what you've done without the emotional stuff behind it, and all the explanation from you, you would think one way, but I feel like maybe people will feel differently hearing you explain everything. You'll still be judged. Okay, I'm just going to tell you that you got to have a thick skin for comments. Okay, I get them all the time. But you know, you know, it'll be interesting what people feel like I mean, I from your email to me, you sound like the worst kind of cheater, but I don't know that you're like that. Like I said, that total philanderer that doesn't fucking care who fuck his wife's best friend and without you know, any kind of feelings about it. You're not that guy. You know, it just sounds like there was a lot more to it and I'm glad that you called in and explained the whole story because I think when you hear the whole story you like I said it just paints a different picture and it's real this your story is real like you had no reason to lie to me about anything you were very honest and I appreciate that yeah no absolutely well thanks for taking the time to talk to me yeah and let me tell you something what you're going to get out of this wait till you hear your story from the third person like right like there's one thing of you talking about it but when you hear this and it airs and you hear yourself talking and hear your story outside of yourself, you might sort of have some lifeboat moments for yourself. Yeah, I'll take that as a complete piece of shit. No, but it might be the thing that makes you be like, oh my God, I got to stop fucking doing that or something. You know what I mean? It might just make some things when you hear, like I said, hearing your story outside of yourself is going to be a very interesting sort of view that you would never get if you didn't sort of put yourself on tape like this. So, you know, let me know what you think after you hear it. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. And go back to therapy. Good luck with everything. So you don't fuck this up. Okay. I'm glad. Listen, I love therapy. And I at least you're a fucking guy that believes in it. You know what I mean? It's like, there's still some people that think like, Oh, I don't know. I'm not going to therapy. I'm not fucked up. It's like, everyone could use some therapy at different times in their life. It's like ridiculous. I love that you're open to it, but you need it now. So go use it. Don't fuck up this relationship. Keep me posted on what you think of the episode. And thanks so much for calling in. Okay. Thank you, Kathy. I appreciate it. Thanks, Mark. Bye. Bye. 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