527: From Ego to Execution, and The Path to Command. With Nate Fry

This is Jocko Podcast number 527 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. When I arrived at headquarters early that Friday morning, the closest parking lot was already crowded. By the time we held our first formation, every lot was full and trucks lined the sides of the road. As I made my rounds that weekend, I saw soldiers sleeping outside in the rain while they practiced field craft, repairing vehicles with scavenged parts and building logistics plans for our deployment. There were plumbers turned medics, electricians turned mortar men, financial advisors turned staff planners, all putting their life on hold for three days to train, to fight and win our nation's wars. All doing it without pay, all doing it without hot meals, all doing it without complaint or expectation of recognition. All doing it because it's their job. Because not doing it would let someone down. Because letting someone down later might mean someone dies. And that right there is an excerpt from an article by Nathan Fry, who is a US Army infantry officer. He's a ranger, a battalion commander currently of the 1372, or sorry, the 3172 infantry, which is mountain of the Vermont National Guard, which is a relative, I guess, of the 1172 Task Force Saber, the amazing unit that we fought alongside in Ramadi, whose lessons that we learned from them kept many seals alive. And Nathan is a veteran of multiple combat deployments, mountain guide, and an entrepreneur, and it's an honor to have him with us here tonight to share his experiences and lessons learned. Nathan, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. What I miss in that, how do you say the 3172? How do you say it? 3172. Cool. We call it the mountain battalion too. Okay, check, see, there you go. The mountain battalion. Mountain battalion. Check, right on. Well, we'll get into some of the mountain battalion a little bit, let's get a little bit of your background. Tell us about growing up. Where are you born? I was born in Alabama. So my dad was a Vietnam veteran. He'd come back and use his GI Bill to go to college. And one of those classic sort of post war success stories, his dad had been a gray bound bus mechanic. His mom was old school, right? Like AT&T telephone operator, like the switchboard operator, you know, put the switches in. So he's the first person from his family to go to college. He got a degree. Was he from Alabama? No, he's from Memphis, Tennessee. He ended up working for the VA Medical Center down in Alabama. And well, I guess I gotta get my times right. He ended up being in a VA Medical Center, Louisiana first. That's where I met my mom. Then they went to Alabama. And then that's how I was born. Eventually I went back to Louisiana. And what did your dad do in NAMM? He was a loadmaster on C-130s. So he got drafted in 68, it would have been. And so he was over in Vietnam, like 69, 70 timeframe. As he told me after I graduated Airborne School, kicking pukes like you out of the back of my airplane. Thanks dad, appreciate that. Sounds like a good plan. And then what was it like growing up? You got, what, one brother? Yeah, I got a younger brother, Corey, five years younger than me. So we weren't super close. Been really cool just on the last year or so. We're starting to have a common business endeavor. And our lives intersect in ways that really didn't before. So we're starting to get closer now. But growing up, we're not super close with each other. Five years is a pretty good gap. It's a big gap. And we're really different too. And I'm finding now in very complimentary ways. But at the time, when you're five years apart and you're 13 and eight, and you don't appreciate that stuff, right? You're just like, oh, that kid's a nerd. He's not a nerd. But yeah, so I grew up super rural, ended up getting sort of a special pass to go into the school in town, as we'd say. You're like, we gotta go in town to the Walmart or whatever. So go to school in town. And so what I ended up doing is my dad would drive me in and drive me off at school. I'd do school and then he'd pick me up in the evening and I'd go back to the house and do the tours around the house and stuff. So I was kind of... Where was this? Was this still in Alabama? Or is this... No, this is back in Louisiana at this point. Yeah, I was in Alabama only for like two or three years. Got it. And then back. So this is in Louisiana. You're living in the sticks. In the sticks. And your parents wanted you to go to a better school or something like that? Yeah. So you're driving 30 minutes. Driving like 30 minutes into school because my dad worked in town too. And so it was... I was lucky to go to school but sort of limited in the extracurricular things. And really what that ended up doing for me is sort of like early on in high school, pretty isolating. I started getting with a really bad crowd. Got kicked out of school for a week. And I think... What'd you do to get kicked out of school for a week? Smoking on the road. After school, we're like, oh, you're at that age. You're like, yeah, it's fine. They're not gonna get me. After school, you don't know the rules. And so we're smoking cigarettes on the road tracks and the assistant principal pops out and he's like, you, you, you, you, you, you. Principal's office, great. That's kind of like a low point. And my dad, at that point, I think, to his credit, realized that I needed something in my life. And a guy he worked with was, ran a Boy Scout troop. And he was like, you're gonna join Boy Scouts. And I was like, I don't wanna join the nerd Boy Scouts. But the two scout masters were super cool. Like, we essentially became my first mentors. Like one was a former collegiate wrestler. One was a marathoner. And they basically just like, they taught us about discipline and said, look, if you're gonna go on these trips, you gotta be able to run two miles. I never ran two miles before, right? But beginning every scout trip, scout, scout meeting, like go out and run two miles. And eventually we could. And then we ran three and then we ran four. Yeah, so it was, it was really formative for me. And so you're, you're launched into Boy Scouts and that's, it's funny, you said nerds. Cause in my mind, I always want to envision Boy Scouts as a paramilitary organization for youth. Like that's what, and I know it's not like that, especially anymore. Like I don't even think it's Boy Scouts anymore. Scouts. I think it's just Scouts. So that's, that's different. And then what are you into besides the Boy Scout thing? Cause weren't you into like music and that kind of thing too? So what's going on with that? That was the other thing. So, and this is all, it's like sort of coincided with each other. I got it in my head that I was gonna be like, yeah, cause I'd lived in the sticks and, you know, country music and, and sort of, you know, that was, that was just the culture I was in. And so I think after that sort of spiral and getting kicked out of school for a week, I was like, you know, I need to find something different. So I started, I picked up the bass guitar. It's like air quotes. It was not very good. Like, you know, four or five power chords would play any punks on you. Yeah, it was good to go. So like, you know, playing bass guitar in a really terrible punk band and my friend's garage and, you know, thinking about like being counterculture and breaking the rules and such. But yeah, so we're doing that and doing scouts. And so you were like in a punk rock band and in the Boy Scouts at the same time. Yeah, this is the, what were your punk rock influences? Like the bands? Yeah. I love NoFX. Yeah, NoFX was like, I think one of the first punk bands I listened to, and then I was never like dead Kennedys guys. Like two, I was like not melodic enough, but then the, we were talking about this earlier, right? Like the mid to late nineties was like this debut of like Bubblegum, Pockpunk. So you have like Blink 182, Dude Ranch comes out, Weezer's coming out, and like that was, you know, that's what we get together. We would just like play offspring in Blink 182 because we could, because it was easy. Yeah. Yeah. And you're in the Boy Scouts at the same time. And the Boy Scouts at the same time. Check. And this kind of gets you into just doing the outdoors type stuff. You're rocking, well, before it was rocking when it was just called hiking. Yeah. Yeah. I had this, I remember like distinctly getting a Cabela's catalog in the mail one day, you know, because I hunted with my uncles. And it's like the coolest thing ever. Oh, it was amazing because like, it's got the pictures of the Rocky Mountains and there's these goats. And I'm like, wait, there's snow and the ground actually goes up and like there's places like this. And so I got my driver's license, I was 16 years old and I'm like, okay, what's the closest mountains? And I don't even know how I found it because there's like no Google search at this point. Somehow I figured out like, oh, it's the Ozarks in Arkansas. So my parents, their credit were like, yeah, you and your friend is my buddy Dave Melicar who later went to the army as well and now he's a diplomatic security service guy. So we still stay in touch and probably because of this trip. So we load the car up. We drive all the way up to Northwestern Arkansas and like unload and I swear to you, like we unload in the parking lot and someone's playing a banjo, like deliverance. And we just kind of look at each other and we're like, what have we done? But then we spend like three or four days just out backpacking on these trails and it was just so liberating for me. I was like, wow, like you can go out and sort of be on your own and cook and make your own decisions. And I think after that, that was just like the mountains are my thing. And so I would drive, I don't know, it was 10, 12 hours at Big Men National Park over in Texas. We started like learning how to climb. But I mean like repelling off grain silos with like marine ropes. I was like, I can't believe that I'm still alive because when I started learning how to climb, I was like, we were totally hooking those ATCs up the wrong way. Yeah, that was the beginning of it. That was high school. Like grain silos and road trips and Boy Scouts. And so what was your plan as you looked at your future? You're like, okay, I'm in high school, obviously I'm gonna graduate at some point. What am I gonna do next? What was your plan? Get out of Louisiana. And how was the best way to do that? I didn't know, right? And my dad, again, to his credit, was like, you're gonna go to college, right? Like this is, you know, this is something, you know, I've worked hard, you're gonna do it, you know, but we didn't have the money to do anything out of Louisiana. At the time it was called the like Star Program or something. But if you had a certain GPA, you get free tuition to LSU. It was a good school, right? And so everyone was doing that. And I was like, I'm not staying in Louisiana. I'm not going to Baton Rouge. Like I gotta find something different. So I went to my guidance counselor and she said, well, you know, there's this place called West Point and it's free. And I was like, it's free. How does that work? And she's like, we have John the Army. I was like, okay, that's fine. So I get in my head and like, I'm gonna go to West Point. So go through all the things and got accepted. And when people heard that I've been accepted at West Point, they were like, you are going to West Point. And this is like, I think I wrote about this and like a little pre-brief thing. I mean, this is freshman year I got, after I guess it was sophomore year at this point, after I got kicked out for smoking and kind of reform myself. But now I'm like, I'm a reform pumpkin. So I had this dyed my hair black and spiked it up. And you know, the principle comes to me as like, you can't have your hair black and spiked. It's distracting. And I was like, it's my constitutional right, you know, to wear my hair up. And so I write this treatise, like referencing, I researched it, like all this stuff, like referencing why it was my constitutional right, the freedom expression to wear my hair up. And my, the founding was, if I'm distracting with my black spiked hair, then every young woman in the school who's wearing tight pants is distracting too. So they need to wear skirts. And I didn't fly. And they were like, cool, thanks for this. Take your hair down. But like that sort of rebellion thing persisted. And so yeah, when I was like, oh, I'm going to West Point, they were like, there's no way you're going to make it. Like, it's not gonna happen. But you went. But I went. And I guess I didn't make it. I don't know. How did you visit West Point before you went? No. Did you watch, did you watch any programs or anything about West Point? No, I mean, this was the, like, there was no, I guess the internet was super rudimentary at this point. I remember I had a catalog. You know, you would get like college catalogs and I had this thick sort of book that had pictures and the cadets and marching uniform. Like, it was like totally different than anything I'd ever seen in Louisiana, right? Like, I mean, I, we eventually got a house, but first part of my life, I grew up in a trailer, right? Like, and so I'm looking at these gray stone buildings. Looks like castles towering above the, you know, the Hudson. And of course they take in pictures when it's, you know, the leaves are orange. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like a storybook. Like this is going to be amazing. There's mountains. So of course I'm like mountains. You know, I can go over there and like be on the climate team. It's going to be great. And yeah, so stoked. And then it got there and like some of it was really, really good. Like I really liked the challenge of it, but the whole like punk rock Nate was just totally tweaked out. Like, wait, you're telling me I have to do this. I have to do that. Like I can't, I wanted to study foreign language. I want to study Russian. I want to go to Russia. Again, don't ask me how it's like, it's just my fixation. It was like, what's the opposite of Louisiana? Oh, it's Russia. And you know, you get up there and they're like, no, you know, you can't really do that. There's no international relations at the time. The close thing was what they called Apple, arts, philosophy and literature. Like that's what you, you're like, oh, you're an Apple major. And it was very direct. It sounds very direct. Yeah, like, no, Apple. So, you know, I was like, I don't know what I do, but I can't do this. Like this is gonna, it's not what I expected out of college career. And man, I wish I could find it, but to his, to his credit, my English professor was this guy named Colonel Schmidt. He was an H64 pilot. He'd been in Gulf War and he was an ROTC graduate. What year is this? This is 2002, 2003. Okay, so the war's going on straight up. Yeah, yeah, in March. Yeah, in March of that year. Right. And so like, we're all, we're all like, okay, this is for real. Like we, you know, we could graduate and end up going to war. And, you know, so at some point I went to Colonel Schmidt and I was like, I don't, I don't know what this is. Maybe I'm gonna go and list. I don't know. And he said, have you ever tried ROTC? And I was like, what, what is that? And he just looks at me and he's like, oh, you poor country bumpkin. So he tells me about ROTC. And I'm like, oh, wait, wait, I can go to a college where I can study what I want and do this at the same time. He's like, absolutely. So I applied to Dickens College. I kind of did a search. I was like, you know, best Russian programs. And Dickinson, like Starzaline, it was like they had a great ROTC program, a great Russian program. And I remember spring break, I went down and met the ROTC professor of military science and he was like, we'd love to have you. So I applied and at the time, thankfully, like scholarships are pretty plentiful. And so got a scholarship and transferred from West Point. And there was no stigma when you going down to the ROTC place. Like, yeah, I'm at West Point, but I don't like it. They weren't like, well, why would you like ROTC? Why would you like the Army if you don't like West Point? The pinnacle of Army. Yeah, I don't remember that. I mean, maybe I could explain it really well. I mean, it's pretty clear. Because I was also doing well there. And I think that was the weird thing. It was not like I was failing and like crying in my bunk. You know, and I remember my company, first sergeant, you know, Cadet First Sergeant came to me and he was like, why are you doing this? You know, like, why are you throwing away this opportunity? And I was like, it's not what I want. So I think going down there, you know, probably with the grades that I had and the performance evaluations that I had, like the first military science. So I still keep in touch with Colonel Masarella, called the MAZ. So, you know, the MAZ looked at that and his, you know, he was like, yeah, you seem like a good kid. Was he the West Point guy or the ROTC? No, this is ROTC guy. Yeah. And did any West Point people as you were like, hey, I'm going to go do ROTC? Was everyone, I would imagine guys would be like grabbing you by the scruff and saying like, dude, what are you doing? Why are you leaving? This doesn't make any sense. Yeah. That's what my company first aren't. I wish I could remember his name. But he, I mean, he sent me down to have a long talk with me, but I mean, Nate Fry, one of my flaws is like, once I make up my mind, I kind of make up my mind. I guess it's a blessing and a curse there. And so I'd sort of made up my mind at this point and I was like, no, I'm going to do it. I think it was where I call in the end though. Yeah, it is very interesting that you can get commissioned by doing four years, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year at one of the service academies. Or you can go to ROTC, which is like four years where you're part kind of part-time soldiering, or you can just do OCS, which is 13. That's what I did 13 weeks by I was a prime. That's the guy. And you can get the same commission out of every one of those different, completely different scenarios. And I guess it makes sense that if you were not into it, but you were still performing well, so what'd you end up doing one year at West Point? Yeah, I finished my freshman year plebier and then transferred after that down to Dickinson. I think the commissioning sources are, they've all got their strengths and weaknesses. I like that there's a lot of diversity there and some people I think are really fit for the academies, some for ROTC and some for OCS. Like it just kind of depends on where you're at. So I think our commissioning program is awesome. Yeah, I worked with just outstanding officers from West Point and from the Naval Academy. And I worked with terrible officers from the West Point and the Naval Academy. And I worked with great guys from OCS and terrible guys from OCS and great guys from ROT. It's really about the human and not about the training that you went through or whatever the commissioning program that you got. So now did you, are you looking at your Army career? What did you decide to do with your Army career as you're getting ready to any other, before I get to that? So you go to college three years now and you're studying Russian? Yeah, I studied Russian. And it was, I say like it was exactly what I wanted it to be because I got a chance to go to Russia and this was sort of these crazy days after Putin had started to just come into power. There was a lot of openness. I mean, there's talk about at this time like Russia might join NATO. It was nuts. And so, we go over there and I spent, I went twice almost for a total of almost a year between the two times I was over there. And it was just eye-opening for me. Again, this is like some progression of from Alabama to Louisiana to West Point to Pennsylvania and now like to go and sort of be on your own in Russia. Where in Russia were you? In Moscow. I ran, so my house, my apartment, I was staying with a host family and I would get up in the morning and go run, run through Red Square, right? Like past Lenin's Tomb, past St. Balz's Cathedral, down through the gates of the Kremlin. And it was crazy, right? It was like no-nothing country kid running through the middle of Moscow. It was probably super dangerous. I just didn't even know. But yeah, I spent all this time there and really I think for the first time I learned about other cultures and that people completely see different aspects of the world than you do. There was this pivotal experience I read about in my sub-sac post, but it got knocked out by a Russian kickboxer. And so I was teaching my operations officer, Phil Bourne, is cringing right now because I've told this story like a gazillion times. I'm like to the little tennis, I'm like, all right, let me tell you about the time. But the short version of it is I was teaching at this Russian high school, like an internship, and the kids sort of tricked me to go down and to do like combatives with them. And they paired me against this like two-time state champion kickboxer and he knocked me out. Right, like flat out knocked me out. And this way it was sort of set up though, it's when I realized after that I was like, I thought that these people were my friends. The reality is they see me as a competitor because I'm American. And I think that was the first time. It was like really eye-opening for me as a cadet to understand that, the world is a competitive place and that me in that ring with that Russian kid was like a tactical proxy for the geopolitical strategic struggle between the United States and Russia. And yeah. Had you ever trained before? No. I mean, I did like plea boxing at West Point and I like wrestled club at West Point. So I was like, I knew some basic takedowns and I could like do different things. Like a jam and a cross. Was it an MMA fight or was it a- It was Rukhroposhka. So the way it was all set up, I thought we were just like rolling in the gym. I'm like, oh, we're gonna go go down here and I get down to the gym and there's like a yeah, like an MMA ring set up with one dude in it and I'm the other guy. Did you wear gloves? So that was, so I go down in like shorts and a T-shirt and they give me a gi and I'm like, okay, cool. I'll put this gi on. Oh, so this is like a sombo scenario. Yeah, yeah, it was Russian called Rukhroposhka. Russian kickboxing is- Did you wear pants? Yeah, so pants and a top. And then they put me in ring and put these gloves on. I think they're boxing gloves, but they're- They're like anime gloves. Yeah, they've got fingers and I've never seen this before. And then I tried to do a single leg takedown in this kid and he just need me in the head and knock me out. It was I had no chance. But asked me later about how that translates over to Russian invasion of Crimea and Ukraine and like it's all a thing. Because it's all a thing. So- It's all like, Nate Fry's strategy or Nate Fry's understanding of Russian strategy, right? Which I formulated in the years after getting knocked out by a Russian kickboxer and then saw it play out in Crimea. Like step number one is lowly into false sense of security, which is what those kids did to me. Like, oh, you know, we're all friends. We're gonna go down and roll together, right? Russia did that to us basically from 2000 until 2014. So the next thing is back you into a position that you can't get out of without embarrassing yourself. Like that was the initial invasion into Crimea. Russia's kind of like, what are you gonna do? He's really gonna attack us in nuclear power and the West is like, I don't know, right? So now we're back into a corner fast forward, you know what, eight years later, like there's an invasion of Ukraine because they had put us in the corner that we couldn't get out of. And the last thing is fight dirty, which is what they did. And it was like, I think we're rolling and having fun. And the reality is like, they're putting me in experience a little me against a, you know, two-time Russian state champion, right? So fight dirty, that's the little green men, that's all the disinformation, you know, the political disinformation that's happened in countries throughout Europe and the United States. So like that's the Russian playbook. They did it to me as a kid there and as it was unfolding over the course of years here, I was like, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's not a bad plan. I mean, it's an effective plan. It worked, yeah, it worked. So as you're going through, spend a year in Russia, what'd you study in college? Just Russian. And then you graduate, what's your plan? What job did you want to have in the army? I wanted to be an infantry officer. So it was like, that's the thing everybody wants to do. So yeah, I wanted to be an infantry officer, got that, got my branch, went to officer basic course, and then got chance to go to range school. Any challenges in the basic course? I think it was pretty straightforward at the time. Officer basic course was more of a prep for range school type of things, like pre-range school. And Ranger was really the capstone event, I think, for us at that time. This is 2006, 2007. Okay. So, no, I thought it was really solid. And I think, you know, as we get later to talking more about what I'm trying to do now with training, I think that was in many ways a big, a big influence on me is like, I had really good high quality training as a cadet, as an infantry lieutenant, you know, as a, or a Bullock student, as a Ranger school student. And you just see like the power of training and how it can be transformative. And you know that from all your steel training. It's like training matters. Yeah, I had a James Webb on the podcast and he was in class of what, 1968, whatever the big popular class from the Naval Academy. But he went from there, went to the basic school, went to infantry officer school, and took whatever nine days to leave. And then went to Vietnam. They brought him out in the field. They pointed at a ridge top and they're like, that your platoon is up there. The previous platoon commander had been killed or wounded or whatever was gone, walked up there, linked up with his guys, you know, met his platoon sergeant. And then that night he's doing like combined arms fire because they're in a massive gunfight. And I said, did you feel like you were ready? And he's like, I was ready. Which is amazing. And it also shows you that at that point in the war, you had enough experienced guys that had been in combat to then be able to teach combat. Which by the way, isn't necessarily a one to one transfer because there's some people that have been in a lot of combat but they don't really, they might not be the best teachers of combat. It's kind of like there's some people that are really good at Jiu Jitsu, but they are not the best teachers. So you got to find someone that has done it, was good at it, and then has the ability to teach it. And clearly the Marine Corps at that time was able to get him trained up. And you must have had a bunch of combat experienced guys teaching you if it was 2006. 2006, 2007. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I even look back to even to ROTC, right? So our senior military instructor was Massar and Greg Kuhn, SF guy, had done multiple deployments with them. The professor of military science had been a Kiowa pilot in the first Gulf War, right? So they're like, these guys knew what was up and they knew the value of training and they invested us in training seriously. And they had the same thing going on in the officer basic course. That's it. A lot of them had, they had done the first wave of OEF or they had done some OEF and then they were coming back and taking a break and training us. And I mean, it was serious. Like we felt the burden. And it's also crazy, and I've seen this, how fast all those combat experienced guys are gone. Like it doesn't take long before you're in a class where you're supposed to be learning combat techniques and there's no instructor that's been in combat. It doesn't take long for that to transpire either. So then you go to ranger school. Did you prep for ranger school in any special way? Probably too much. I don't know, like with spoiler alert, fast forward. Like I think I thought about it nonstop for like three years. And I dated my wife through college and then we got married right after college. And so she'd kind of seen the whole journey. And she came to me at graduation and my oldest daughter was a couple months old at the time. Cause I basically like had the kid and then went to ranger school and was like, bye. Graduation from ranger school, this is? Graduation from ranger school, right. So my wife shows up with my daughter, my little tiny daughter and she's like, how was it? And I was like, it's not as hard as I thought it was gonna be. So I think like I prepped super hard for it, but it was- What did you do to prep for, what advice would you give for somebody that's getting ready for ranger school? Take the tactics seriously. Like understand how to communicate in operations order. It's not like the physical we got. Physical is, it's relatively easy. I mean, you know, like some of the struggle was like for the most part, like people, they get the physical part down, right? Do what it is that works for you. I'm not a ruck guy. Like I don't get a lot out of it. So I was swimming, I was running, I was lifting and that did it fine for me. The killer is the ability to, it's Boyd's Oodleoo, right? John Boyd's Oodleoo, right? Observe Oriental Side Act. Like how quickly can you absorb information, orient yourself to that information, express it to your platoon, get them to observe an Orient, right? So you got to get them in the Oodleoo as well, and then make a decision and all of you act on it in concert. That's the hard part. And so, you know, it's the, you know, I fall asleep during class, then I miss a critical part of the, you know, the classes as well. Like ranger school teaches you everything you need to know. You just have to pay attention. And one of my pet peeves, even today is like, if you're in a class with someone and you don't have a notebook out and you're writing that down, you're missing it, right? Cause you're probably, especially in Orangeville, you're sleepy as it is, right? And so you're hearing it. You're probably not really remembering it because you're already sleepy as opposed to if I'm writing this stuff down, right? I'm hearing it. I'm physiologically using my motor skills to write it. I'm seeing it as I write. So now I've reinforced that learning by three. And then later I can go back and read it again. And so, you know, that's what I saw is people are like, oh, I don't understand why I fail. And it's like, let me see your Ranger handbook. And there's nothing in it. And you're like, you gotta write this stuff down, y'all. So yeah, write it down and then study it. And so what did your wife say to you when she showed up to your graduation? She said, how bad wasn't you? Like it's not that bad. Yeah, it was like, it wasn't bad as, I said it wasn't bad as I thought it was. Or as I thought it would be. It seemed like, like super human as a cadet. You're like, only super humans graduate. I can never do this. I think, and you've talked about this in your podcast before. It's like, every time you do something hard, it raises your confidence level. So as a cadet, you're like, I can never do that. And then you do, you know, airborne school is a cadet. And you're like, oh, okay, I can do hard things. And then you go to officer basic course and you're like, oh, I can do hard things. Right, and then at that point, like you're fully prepared to go to Rangers, which you have to believe in yourself that you're prepared to do it. And realize it's like, it's not super human. You've done hard stuff before. You're just gonna raise the bar one more notch. Check, yeah. And then where'd you get stationed? Fort Lewis with 2ID, so second-in-inert division. And you were rolling as a platoon commander? Yeah, right in. So this is where, everything in my sort of career at this point have been going really, really well. And at this point, you know, I go in and I feel like, I like a plan and I like to follow the plan. I say like, I envision something like, oh, this is the way it's gonna happen. Right, and so things started to sort of get out of sync here. And I think that in many ways, like bit me in future times, right? Like I started to see that things weren't going according to the plan that Nate Fry had for himself, right? So I roll in to fifth striker brigade, second-in-inert division. So fifth brigade, five-two striker was brand new. And I showed up, there was like a platoon and a half. There we were riding to the range on buses instead of strikers because we're like literally brand new unit. So eventually my platoon sort of gets formed. So this is 07? This is, yeah, this is 07. Yeah, brand new unit. And so eventually the unit sort of gets formed up and we, it's an amazing mentor there. Again, I've sort of lost touch with them, hopefully. Like catch them, reinvigorate and catch them again, but my company manager versus a guy named Captain Eric Schwartz and Captain Schwartz had been like original Tenth Mountain Division in OEF, like 2001, 2002 timeframe. Amazing person, amazing tactician, amazing teacher. And so I was super lucky to have him like as my mentor, you know, growing up as a platoon leader. But so spent some time like sanding up that company and then eventually ended up being the assistant S3 in the battalion. But like to be completely honest, like I got to the point there where I was, I felt like I was like mad, angry, frustrated because I felt like I was being underutilized and that attitude ended up biting me pretty hard. Because when the unit got, it's finally got its deployment orders. And this is a whole nother nut roll. People out there who in 5-2 remember this, but we were supposed to go to Iraq and we're heading to NTC and gosh, probably three weeks or so before NTC, they were like actually you guys are going to Afghanistan. So it was a complete U-turn of tactics, techniques, mindset. So we all, you know, we all started prepping to go to Afghanistan, but at that time, the human resource command came down and was like, hey, you guys, some of you have been here too long, you need to go and go fill out these embedded training teams with, you know, that are standard for Riley. And were those embedded training teams supposed to go to Iraq? Afghanistan or just whichever? I think it was both. Yeah, I think it was both. It was like dependent on which one you got assigned to. And without going in too many details, I was like, I was being kind of a jerk at this point. I had, I was... How old are you at this point? Oh gosh, 20, 25, I guess? Yeah, this was like three years. I just made captain and like angry and bitter and felt like, well, you know, it doesn't like recognize me and my talents well enough. And so, and they were like, I think they kind of a game. And it was like, well, you know, Fry's got some talents, but he's also a pain in the butt. So like sent him to the ETT. So I ended up not having a chance to deploy with those guys, which I looked back on, I was like, yeah, I was dumb. For being, basically just being a jerk. So long, short, short, like the ETT. The world, it turns out that the world did not revolve around you. Yeah, but it took me another like eight years to figure it out. Yeah, this is like, the NAFRI right now is a product of the mistakes that NAFRI made in all the, and I talked to my lieutenants about this all the time. I was like, you should be open to making mistakes because in the long run, those of us that don't make mistakes, I think maybe in the end, and this is a long time, like after 15, 20 years, you've missed out on all of this learning. I think over time, it definitely made me better. Maybe I'm just not very smart. And what sucks is you're like angry and bitter about this thing, which is probably not huge. But then just the fact that you're angry and bitter about that thing that's not huge, let's say you get to a unit that's not really stood up and you're like, dude, this is, what am I having to do? So you're kind of angry about that. And then that escalates into like, people see that. People smell when you're mad and people smell when you're frustrated. And that always smells like it's about you. Yeah, totally. And so then you get assigned to something where they go, hey, you know what, actually, we're not gonna take you to Afghanistan, you can go over here. And the reason they did that is because you were kind of mad and frustrated and showing it, which again, seems selfish. So now they look at you and go, oh, you can go over here. Which, what does that do? Makes you even madder. And you get more frustrated. It's a little bit of a downward spiral that people can fall into. Absolutely. For me, it was, and I look back and I'm like, I was so dumb. But every Ranger qualified and infantry officer is like, I'm gonna be the scout platoon leader, right? I'm gonna be the battalion scout platoon leader. And I was like, I'm gonna be the battalion scout platoon leader. Like I'm fit, I'm smart, I'm motivated. And the S3 at the time, then Major Jose Ocasio, brilliant guy, right? And he was like, he saw talent me. And he was like, I want you to be my AS3. Nobody wants to go and be on staff. Nobody wants to go and be on staff. Nobody's gonna, like AS3. So there's another thing that made you angry. Yeah, I was like, oh, the AS3, like that's a coffee maker. And so like I spent my time up there instead of learning from him. And I did learn from him eventually, but like instead of really investing time and learning from him being like, I'm here because he sees talent in me. Like, and he's grew me from something bigger. I just like walked around all sulky. I was like, I'm the AS3, I should have been the scout platoon leader, right? It's like, and like you said, people pick up on that. And they know that. Even if you don't say it, like you exude it. Yeah, I always say people can smell your intent. And this is case in point, you know? And really good, really great, just lesson learned for everyone that's out there. Because the opposite side is, you know, I was telling you when I showed up to SEAL Team 1 to get done with SEAL training, and here I am, you know, made it through the toughest military training in the world and all this stuff. And I show up there and they're literally, hey, go clean the heads, you know? And there's where the cleaning supplies are, go clean them. And like, okay, cool, that's what we're doing. I've cleaned those things like it was, you know, the most important thing in the world. And that is the thing where someone goes, oh, that guy's kind of a hard worker. Let's, hey, we can send him to this school. Okay, let's send him to that school. And it just takes a different term from that, that initial reaction that you give something. So that's great heads up to the young troopers out there, you know, when something comes your way, man, just grab onto it, do the best you possibly can. Take it. I mean, the context for me is looking back, it was like, I was the honor graduate from my ROTC class. I was the honor graduate from my IOBC class. I was, did the, what is it called? Like the Ralph Colonel Puckett board, you know, to be in the running, to be the graduate from Ranger school. Like, I think I'm hot stuff, right? And I was, I was good, right? But I wasn't the only one that was good. But when you go into this and you're like, look, I'm honor graduate, you better bow down and for me and like recognize how awesome I am. Like, dude, you're a second lieutenant. Chill out, right? Like, you know, however many, however many other honor grads are there out there, right? But yeah, you get stuck in the cycle of like, like I'm awesome, you better treat me like that. Yeah, it's also from a leadership perspective, you know, cause we'd always have like the young hockey guys coming into the SEAL teams and being able to take them and go, Hey bro, like we know you made it through SEAL training, so did everyone else. Yeah, exactly. Cause it doesn't really mean anything. And you know, how good you do this job that you're being assigned right now, however small you think it is, people are gonna watch you, people are gonna judge you. And if you can kind of convince guys of that, you can see them turn around. Sometimes, sometimes, of course, people, they're just, life is gonna be the thing that's gonna have to humble them. So you get this assignment to do one of these internal embedded training team? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so this is where, you know, the plot continues to thicken. Nate Fry gets even more angry. So I had to also- It's weird, cause you seem like such a nice guy here, you know, like- Yeah, I'm super chilled out now. I'm a skier now. You know, I was like, skier, skier. Angry Nate Fry. This was angry punk Nate Fry. And I'm just like, skier Nate. So, all good. But so I'd gone to SFAS, Special Forces Assessment Selection. And wait, how did you get that billet? Did you- So you do that, I did that as lieutenant, right? So you just go temporary duty to- Got it. To do this selection, which is not that long, right? That's like a few weeks to get it. 21 days, yeah. So it was 21 days at this time. And so I got it, gone to SFAS, thinking I was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna eventually go to, to Special Forces Training, got selected. And so I sort of had like this in the background. It's like, okay, you can go to SF training whenever you get back from deployment. Well, the orders for the ETTs get canceled, right? So at this time, and this is 2009 by this point, they shifted, the Army decided to shift the burden for the ETTs, the MTTs to all the combat brigades. So if a brigade was deploying, they would deploy their, you know, the normal formation. And then they would also have to carve out a slice, and those would become ETTs, right? So the brigades had to staff both. So they shut down the ETT, MTT program, and I was like, all right, what do I do now? And they go, well, you know, you've been selected, and you got selected, so go to SF course, okay? I'm gonna go to SF course then, fine. So further feeding into the ego, right? So now here I'm a 24 or 25, maybe 26 at this point, like 26 year old captain, like, I'm awesome. I get selected, and I'm gonna go to selection now. Fast track into SF, okay? Well, mindset matters, and my mindset was not mature. So ended up going to the SF course, and again, things are going super well there for me, like performing well, no recycles, you know, going through the whole thing, like no problem. But internally, like a lot of frustration in your building up still, like, I think from the previous, like, assignment, going through the SF at the same time, and it was like, just to put it frankly, like not what I thought it was going to be, in terms of like the mission and the mindset in many ways. And so near the end of it, I kind of a series of things pop up that, you know, further called me to just like get mad and angry and freak out. What kind of things popping up? Just like stupid, like chicken shit type evolutions or? Yeah, so, I'm trying to like, how to put it like in an attackful manner. I think at the time, this is my analysis, somebody can yell at me about it afterwards, but like, I think at the time, you know, most of the really strong players were deployed, right? And so if you were at the actual, you know, cadre course at this time, it's like, it wasn't always their best people. And so I had, I wasn't super impressed with like the quality of like the instructor that we were working with. And so, and again, here's Nate Fry, like thinking he knows everything. This is rough. Yeah. This is not a good recipe. No, no, it's like, I can look back now and be like, okay, well, yeah, you were, you know, walking, like thought you walked on water. So I'm getting like angry and angry the whole time. Cause I'm like, this is wasting my time or whatever. And so near the end of it, we go to Robin Sage, you know, like the final, like the final culminating exercise. Everything's going well, right? But two things happened that like, that really set me off. So the first is my wife was pregnant with my son at the time. And I was like, I'll be back, you know, in time for Robin Sage, like I'll be able to see the birth. But she came early. And so I missed my son's birth. And so I'm like, I get a cell phone call from the cadre one day and they're like, hey, you know, you know, special call from your wife. Like she went into labor and she had the kid. So I'm like devastated. Like I feel like at this point, I have put my career in front of my family, which is something I like resolved never to do. And I did. And then the second thing is, is a guy on our team lost his knots, his night vision devices. And when they lose the light, they lose these night vision devices. They shut the lane down. They're like, Hey, look, you guys all have to go and find these night vision devices. And we can't find them. Right. They're gone. Like you lost them on the side of the road. Some guy from central North Carolina picked them up. Desync. Dude's got them as a mantle piece right now. Right. Like they're gone. So they recycle the entire team. Everybody back to how far back to the beginning of Robin Sage, right? Which is a six week, a six week setback. But at this point, like the Nate Fry anger and frustration, right? Is like, is so built up plus missing my son's birth, you know, plus this, you know, like being recycled back to the beginning. And I'm like, nobody recycles Nate Fry. I don't recycle anything. I'm first time go through a ranger school, right? Like, like, how do you, how do you, how do you have like the, the, the, the gall to recycle me? So I get super mad. And I'm just like, I resign. I'm leaving. I'm leaving SF. I'm leaving that like the pipeline. All I had to do was go back and, and go back to SF, go, go back to Robin Sage. Another six weeks. Yeah. How deep, how long is that up until that point? 18 months. 18 months. What did they say to you? Nothing. Because like, I mean, when you have somebody come in and it's like, hey, I'm going to quit. They're like, okay, it's ringing the bell, right? I ring the bell. Like, like got angry and it's like, you know what? I'm too good for this. Ring the bell, like walked on, walked away. Damn dude. Yeah. I'm not that I'm interviewing you and not that guy. Like that guy's rough, man. That's rough. I was, I was, I was super angry. And I, yeah, I can't, I can't tell you exactly why. But it, it, it caused me and it's like for listeners listening out, you know, for people listening, right? Cause I've, I've sort of made it my life goal to be as transparent as I can about like my mistakes because I'm super lucky in the sense I recovered. And we'll talk about this in a second. I was like, you know, Jason Pilleteer, right? Like, Jason Pilleteer recovered me. And in that same way, I've had two resets, like two hard resets that was the, the Boy Scouts and kind of got me back on my path and got me on track. And I was successful there and then started spiraling again and then met Jason Pilleteer and he put me back on track. But yeah, I was probably not a fun person to be around. So what happens after you quit SF? You go back to the force. And, and so at this point they were like, well, you're an infantry officer, but you just did all this SF training and, and like, what, what do you want to do now? And, and I'm so angry at this point that I'm just like, I don't, I don't care. And they were like, well, there's this unit deploying from Fort Bliss, Texas. They need an S2 battalion and intelligence, intelligence officer. Do you want to deploy as a battalionist too? I was like, yes, fine. It's fine. Let's, let's go. So here's an infantry officer. I've never been to Intel training other than like what I got in SF. And so I go to Fort Bliss, deploy as, as a battalion Intel officer, technically military intelligence, but I'm not because I don't know anything about military intelligence, but like put it together and like did well. But then, but after that, I was like, I'm done. And where'd you guys deploy to Afghanistan? And what was that deployment like? So it was the drawdown. Like, so at this point, President, this is 2012, 2013. Obama had already had already announced that the US was leaving. And so the Taliban at this point was like, well, cool. We're not doing that. We're not doing it. Yeah. Why are we going to stick our neck out? And so, like, yeah, like relatively, it was not like your Ramadi experience at all. And I was an S2. So this is, you know, I get asked a lot of questions and I get asked so many questions. This is such a good conversation because I get so many questions about, you know, things that happen to people in whatever career they're in, whether in a military career, police, corporate America, whatever team they're part of. And there's like things that go slightly wrong. And I'm always saying, hey, listen, you got to take the high ground, you know, you know, absorb as much the problem as you can. And you don't want to lash out, don't let your ego get in the way. And a lot of times, hey, you got to play the game. Like, hey, there's it's a game. You got to play the game. And this is like a classic example of I'm glad because I give people that advice all the time. And sometimes I'm like, well, you know, occasionally, shouldn't you just stand up for yourself? And I'm always like, you know, you want me to say like, hey, you know, if someone talks to you that way, you got to stand up for yourself. It's like, no, actually, when someone above, below or across the chain of command to you, treat you disrespectful, the answer is not to then be more disrespectful back to them. That's not the answer. I don't care where they are on the chain of command. Look, can you can we carve out some scenario where, you know, someone is truly being deeply disrespectful in front of you? Sure, you can come up with something like that. It is so rare that I will barely even mention it. These are classic. These are classic stories that you're telling of not being able to absorb something, play the game, deal with it, because ultimately you're going to win in the long run. You've got to think more strategic. And it's hard to think strategic when you're 20, 23, 25 years old. It's really hard to go. Okay, I can see where this is going to go in the long run. I need to play the game. So this is just great reinforcement for people to really think about how they're going to respond. And 99.9% of the time when you take the high road in the situation, you will end up in a better spot. Yeah. Just like in combat, 99% of the time, if you get the high ground, you're going to be in a better situation. Occasionally, rarely yet. Okay, we're going to get in this little ravine. We're going to move around. I get it, but 99% of the time taking the high ground is the way to go. And that's the way it works. So these are great stories for people to hear because everyone just about every single day you deal, we deal, people deal with some scenario like this. Their boss disrespects them. They didn't get the job they want. Whatever the thing is, it happens all the time. And to be able to go, okay, cool. I'll make the best of this right now. Is a skill that you must learn. Otherwise, you're going to have to get multiple resets in your life. And they're generally speaking, not very fun. Yeah. And you're lucky if you get them. Like sometimes you don't get them. Right. Like I am amazingly lucky that I've gotten the resets that I twice, right? Like, I don't plan on doing my third strike, right? Like this is too annoying and good. But another thing I would say to the listener is like the fallacy of falling on your sword, like the, the nobility of falling on your sword. So, you know, a couple of times I've done that. I'm like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to stand for this. I'm going to follow my sword for this. And like, you know, all my peers are going to see how awesome I am. And that, that I, you know, took the bullet for everyone else. I'm like, they do. And they're like, wow, yeah. Like Nate's gutsy to do that. He's also stupid. Right. He's, he's dumb. So. And oftentimes, and this is a problem that I've talked about with, not a problem, but one of the, one of the sort of mysteries with David Hackworth. And it's not much of a mystery with me, but David Hackworth, you know, he was, he would have been a brigade commander next and division commander. He could have really shaped how they fought the war, but he did this interview and he spoke his mind and he was, you know, he literally gets asked during that interview, don't you think you're a little emotional about what's happening here? And he's like, yeah, you're damn right. Emotional. I'm watching these kids get killed every day. So he reached a point where he could not do it anymore. That being said, if you want to play like the, the what if, what if he sucked it up one more time and, and he became a brigade commander, division commander. Could he have helped more individual soldiers? Maybe, maybe not. Yeah. But and we see this, you know, this happens in politics when, when General Mattis was working for Trump and it was like he resigned his position and he was in the news for a short period of time. And by a short period of time, you know, today's news cycle is 24 hours, maybe 48. And then no more influence. Nobody cares. And not in that position to make a difference anymore. So it's to your point, look, are there times where we can go back through history and we can say, oh yeah, this leader, this, this platoon commander or this battalion commander stood his ground and actually was able to make a massive change. That has happened historically. But doesn't happen very often. Yeah. Most of the time, like I fire you. Cool. I got echo right here. Exactly. He's going to do exactly. Oh, you want to resist me? Cool. You're fired. Echo tech steps in and Echo's going to be no resistance whatsoever. And he's going to do exactly what I said. And I'm going to win. Yeah. And you just get fired. I coined this term. It's someone, I don't know if I said it or some other people, but we talk about like high maintenance, all stars, right? And it's like a high maintenance also. It's like, okay, cool. Like you're an all star, but you suck up so many of my resources, my time. You know, because I've got to pour all these, you know, all this time and resource in you that I can't give to other people. I would rather have sometimes there's a time for the high maintenance, all sorry, I guess, but like sometimes like I would rather have a bunch of slightly above average performers than this one high maintenance, all star who like, yeah, it kills it, but is a pain in the butt to have around. Like, that was me. Right. I was like, objectively, I was objectively good. I was objectively a pain in the butt, right? Like, and those two things cancel each other out. Yeah, they do. And they actually, they kind of end up a little bit on the negative side rather than just cancel each other out. There, it's actually that disruption to the morale and the disruption to the culture is so problematic because then you end up, you know, if, if you work for me and you're a high maintenance, would you say high maintenance? High maintenance, all star. If you're a high maintenance, all star and you work for me and you're causing all these issues. I mean, Echo's over here looking at me like, dude, you really put up with this guy and, and so I lose leadership capital because of your behavior. So it's just not good. Um, so you do this deployment and during this deployment, I'm sure you're like, Hey, I'm getting out of the army. This is a done deal for me. Yeah. I was at this point, it was like everything, you know, everything that I thought I was going to accomplish. I was like, I haven't done any of it. And like the SF thing was not without its, uh, like emotional toll. Um, you know, like walking away from that, I was like, felt like a, a complete failure. Um, am I at issues? Got to be worse. Right. So I get out of the army at seven, seven, seven years and some change. And I'm like angry, done. I, you know, I'm done with this army thing. I'm going to go, I'm going to go do something else. So I, I'm going to go to Vermont. I'm going to study forestry and I'm going to go work with trees. That's what, that's what they was going to do. Kind of sounds like a good deal. Work with trees. Trees don't yell at you. If you get angry at them, you can cut them down. It's all good. Yeah. Um, I was building a retaining wall in my backyard when I was probably at like the 16 year mark or something like that of the Navy. And I'm out there and I'm all day it's hot and, and just sweating, but I'm building this nice looking retaining wall and my wife comes out and she's like, Oh, how's it going? I'm like, I think I want to become a Mason when I retire. And I was like completely serious. I was completely like you get, cause a lot of times in the military, you're, you're, you have nothing to show for your work at the end of the day or the end of the week, at the end of the month, like, Oh, you, as an officer, Oh, you built another PowerPoint brief. You did this thing. Of course, being on deployment is nothing more gratifying than that. But the day to day life is not, you don't see much for it. And here you go. You work a hard day, 14 hours and I have a little wall. Yeah. And it's going to be there forever. Immediate gratification. Immediate gratification feels great. And like you said, the blocks don't talk back. The concrete, you know, goes where you want it. To go all good. So you had that idea with trees. Yeah. That's what I'm going to do. Like, just go be a forester. So, um, we moved to Vermont. What's your wife say to this? Oh, she's so tired of me at this point, I think, like, you know, I've drug her around. You know, she had my oldest daughter and I left like a week later for reindeers school and was gone for 60 days straight. And she's like single parenting, 23 years old, you know, miles away for a hundred miles away from her family. Like she's, she's a saint, right? That she's still with me. Um, I think at this point she's just like, wants me to do something to be stable and not stalk around the house like a, you know, angry. So she's kind of down with this. Yeah. I mean, she's like, where are you going to get a paycheck from? Yeah. Yeah, there's that part. But she, I just like, she's, she's like, um, yeah, she's figured out. She's, um, like super fiscally responsible. And she's like, oh, beans and ramen will be fine. So, okay. Um, so we get out and yeah, I'm like, I'm going to go to grad school, um, to, to study trees and university Vermont had a great program and her family's from Pennsylvania. So we're like, okay, Vermont works. It was like within a day's drive of the, of the, um, the grandparents. So we come up to Vermont and, um, pretty clearly or quickly I'm like, yeah, I need some money and, uh, I need probably some life insurance and health insurance. And, um, you know, this time, like the whole time I'm still skiing. I'm still climbing. I'm ice climbing. I'm pursuing, um, certification as an IFMGA mountain guide. Uh, and so I'm like, Vermont's great. Right. I can ski, I can climb. I can do my guide certifications. I can go to school, right? All these things kind of wrap together. Um, what year is this that you get out of the army? 2013. Okay. Yeah. 2013. Um, and so you're going to, you have to go to college for these qualifications. Well, so this is the AMGA is the American Mountain Guide Association. Okay. And American Mountain Guide Association, it's essentially like a professional licensing, um, but in order to progress through it, it's like these series of courses that you have to do to like, you know, certified as a rock guide, certified as an Alpine guide, certified as an ice climbing guide, certified as a ski guide. And it, it takes a long time. Maybe it's a long, arduous route and there's a ton of, um, every time you do a course, you got to build a resume for it. Right. So it's like, oh, if you want to go to the advanced rock guide course, you know, you've got to put up like something like 30 different climbs, like super high level, you know, difficult remote. Um, so it takes time and it takes money to do it. It's not easy to do it. Your hope is that the end of all that you can become a guide. Yeah. Like a fully certified. Anybody can guide, but like to be a certified guide and work internationally. You have to go through this whole, you know, this whole like, and that's your plan. That's my plan. I'm going to study trees and that's going to give me enough time to go to the Forest Service. And so you're going to college basically for forestry. Yeah. For forestry. Okay. Going to college for forestry. Then you're doing all this extracurricular, doing that, trying to become a guide. A mountain guide. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. And you realize you need money. And I, that would probably be good. And, and because guiding is, I don't know, like kind of dangerous. It, health insurance, life insurance is probably a good idea too. Um, and so I kind of like, oh, national guard, like what can the national guard do for me and find out that there's this mountain battalion, the mountain battalion. Right. So I look at him and was like, there's a mountain warfare unit in Vermont. Like, how sick is that? Um, so I call these guys up and I'm like, Hey, this is who I am. Like active duty guy, you're a former active duty guy. Um, and, uh, you know, my parent Vermont, like, what do you guys have available? And I was like, you got to be kidding me. So I, I, I come off as, you know, working as a battalion S2 off of active duty. And, and they go, well, we got this battalion S2 slot open. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Okay. So here we go again. Um, but at this point, I'm mellowed out a little bit and, um, and, uh, I, I sign up for the Vermont guard and, and this is, this is the, you know, this is the next reset. Right. Like this, this changed the course of my career, uh, in my life. So I show up at, uh, at, um, the mountain battalion headquarters for my first drill. And, you know, I, I walk out and there's soldiers standing in formation. I remember like the mortar platoon sergeant is like knife handing one of his guys and just like chewing them out. I'm like, okay, well, that's not what I expected to see. I thought the guard was like about barbecues and stuff, you know, and there's people doing maintenance over on Humvees. Kind of like the, you know, the narrative that you read at the beginning. And I walk in and, uh, meet the, the recruiting officer and he goes, I, you know, this battalion commander wants to meet you. Okay. Cool. So I go up and, and he goes, look, he's former active duty guy too. Like just do the thing for him. Okay. Fine. So I walk in, salute report and Lieutenant Colonel Jason Pelletier. And, and he sits me down and he, he just starts to have a conversation with me. What are you from? What do you do? Oh, you were in 117. I was in 417, you know, infantry battalion. You know, so we kind of got this bond and, you know, we start talking and, and I think he senses it. And he's like, look, um, I know that people have bad experiences and good experience on active duty. And I'd encourage you to do this, take all the good that you ever saw and bring it here and find all the good that we have here and put it together and just throw the bad stuff out. And I was like, okay, I can do that. Seems like a really good option, man. Yeah. I mean, it was like, it was great. It was, it was, it was like transformational in terms of the mind set. I was like, okay, just take all the good stuff and just put it together and be a good team player. And I think he probably was like, Hey, we're stoked to have you on as a, as, as the S2. Um, and, uh, and I mean that was it. All right. Salute and walk out. And like that was the beginning of the changeover. Yeah. And, and like I said in the beginning, you know, Jason Pelletier, who is just, just outstanding soldier and super humble guy, you know, very, very nice, very approachable, probably, you know, as a, as a combat leader has an incredible amount of combat experience from his time in Ramadi, where they were faced against a brutal enemy. And yet, and, and, and as I mentioned at the beginning, I can't say it strongly enough, the amount of information that they passed on to me and my guys, uh, you know, it was, it absolutely kept our guys alive. It's a hundred percent kept our guys alive. There was, there was operations where they would, you know, there's, there's one operation I'm thinking of right now that, you know, Jason told Leif like, do not do that. And, you know, like, Leif was like, Hey, what do you think of this? And he's like, well, that's not, I wouldn't do it. And I'm not going to go through all the details. But, you know, Leif was like, yeah, but, you know, we could probably make something happen and, you know, and finally Jason just like, I think, I think the quote was, if I wanted to get one of my guys killed, I would do this. And Leif's like, Oh, okay. So that right there. And there's plenty of examples like that to go through, but just a super nice guy, humble guy, very effective combat leader. And it's just awesome that he stayed in and now he gets someone like you and is able to kind of assess where you're, where your mind is at and talk to you in a way that changes your entire perspective very radically in a conversation. That's, that's real leadership right there. Yeah. And, and he had, he had a team under him and I think this just speaks to the power of team and organizational culture. His XO and his S3, um, both former active duty guys, um, you know, had come to the guard and, and their mindset was the same. They were like, look, take the good, you know, put it all together. Like there's a unique culture here, feed into that culture. And that culture was one of, of, of like standards, discipline, integrity and, and effectiveness. And I think that for me was, was maybe the more transformative aspect of it. Cause I was like, okay, these guys don't, I mean, grooming standards, important fitness standards, important, all this stuff is important, but it's also not at the expense of being effective. And that I think was the thing that I was like, okay, I can get along with these guys because so much of a lot of my frustration had been like, why are we doing this? Like this doesn't make any sense. Right. Like there's no functional reason for us to be doing this. And yet, well, you know, big army says do it, do it. And here's this common sense group of people who are like, if it doesn't work, we're not going to do it. I'm like, I can get onto this. Like, you know, this is, this is really good. Um, they also like little by little, uh, sort of harness like the anger and the energy that I think I had. Um, and, and so that I was just talking to, um, uh, Colonel Paul judge who was Palatiers XO at the time. And he's like, yeah, I just remember when our first like field exercise was like this brigade exercise and I was still the S two. And I got on the phone and like yelled at somebody because they weren't giving us ISR support. And, and he said, yeah, you, you, you said, I hope your mother's happy and proud of you and like hung up the phone. And he said, I laughed. I was like, I like this guy's fire. He's going to fit in just right. But then they also was like, okay, Nate, like, how can we purchase like a different way next time? Like, I love it that you're sticking up for us, but can we soften this a little bit? And so there was this, you know, it's funny. Colonel Pelletier was the battalion commander and then Colonel judge was later the battalion commander. I was a company commander under him. And I think there was this sort of process of like, like, let's shape Nate to be a little bit more relaxed about this stuff. So it was, it was a multiple. It was like a multi-step sort of intervention from these guys who were like, you got a lot of potential buddy, but like there's some other things that are distracting, detracting from it. Can we mellow that out? Can we refocus that? You know, it's like a nuclear explosion could do one or two things, right? It can destroy things with all of its energy or it can be harnessed to create like endless clean power. Right. And I was like destroying a lot of stuff. And I feel like those guys were like, I love the energy. Let's, let's put it in a nuclear power plant and get it to do something constructive. And I owe those guys. My, my light, you know, where I'm at right now because of the way they approach that. Yeah. It's also awesome because if you, if someone pushes hard against, you know, someone that has a lot of what we're calling right now energy, you know, if, if, if you come into my office and you sleep, me to go, sounds like you, sounds like you really think you know what you're doing. Boom. It's going to be, it's going to be a nuclear reaction, right? It's going to be bad. The bad kind of nuclear reaction. Whereas for someone to sit down, well, tell me what's going on. And all of a sudden recognize it and then try and figure out how we can capture this and do something good with it. Just the leadership is just so important along the way. So, so that's it. You're now with, you join the unit and then what's that like? Are you, did you go active duty immediately with the, with the National Guard? No, I went and played with trees for a little bit. Um, so I, I, uh, I was a traditional National Guard guy one week and a month, two weeks a year thing. Um, and, and I had to work with the U S four service over in New Hampshire and run around the woods with trees. Um, little too low energy for me though. Right. Like at a certain point I was like, trees are not growing super fast. Like, could we go faster trees? And trees are like, no bro, like I'm not going any faster. Um, and so, you know, continuing to do the mountain thing. And this is where I think like I really started to give my stride. Um, got a call one day from, uh, now retired general, uh, Nate Lord, who was a, um, old mountain Italian guy. And he said, Hey, look, we need a full time training officer at the Army Mountain Warfare School. Would you come on a GR duty to do this? Does he know your background? Oh yeah. Okay. So another guy that I owe so much to, because he was like, we need Nate here. You know, the school started at an inflection point and he pulled some strings to, to like, to get me to the school. Um, and that was, that was the beginning of sort of like, okay, I finally feel like I'm doing my thing. And so did you go active duty then? Yeah. So I went to do that. School. AGR to, to go work at mountain schools. I worked there for three years. Um, so what's, what's going on at the mountain school? What's, who, who, who shows up there to train? Yeah. Well, it's, so any of your listeners out there who have been to mountain school will, will back me up on this probably and say it is one of the, um, best kept secrets in, in the army. Um, the, here's what's different about it. Right. Airborne school, ranger school, like all these other schools that, you know, that the army has, you go there, you're in stuck for two, three years and you're gone. Right. When the mountain warfare school, because the unique, the way it's uniquely set up. Um, some of those instructors have been there for 10 or 15 years. Now that comes with some negatives, right? Like the whole homesteading mentality. It also makes them amazing masters of their craft. And it makes them, they've also had time to hone and you were talking to this earlier, like hone themselves as instructors, not just, I know this stuff, but I can teach the stuff. And so the level of professionalism there is just, it's, it's through the roof. They're all practitioners, right? They can ski, they can climb, they can teach how to ski and climb. Um, and so at this time, you know, the, the, the mountain school is really looking at, okay, what, what is coming next? And the army's talking more about Arctic is more talking about specialized warfare. 10th mountain division is sort of standing up again as an actual mountain unit. And we get to sort of be at the middle of all of that as the mountain warfare school, writing doctrine, advising people on, um, you know, on how to integrate mountain operations into their, into their formations and also like tons of like foreign partner assistance stuff. I mean, these guys, when we're not teaching a course, there's typically an instructor team gone somewhere in the world teaching mountaineering to someone. Like it was so busy. What does your training ground look like? Do you have good training in, where is it in Vermont? It's in Vermont. And do you have good training there? Do you have like massive amounts of acreage to train in? Yeah. So, uh, Ethan Allen training site, um, is, is, uh, like just east of Burlington, 12,000 acres that backs right up to the spine of the green mountains. Like, so the Eastern boundary is the long trail. So you can do, I mean, if you get really creative, like as a training guy, right, you can like do long distance movements through the mountains where you go up, you hit the long trail, you know, we would, you could do these huge traverses. We'd come down, there's a, um, I'd say a higher elevation. Uh, HLZ up there. You know, so like sees the HLZ set up a defense around it, get tagged. I mean, it's just, it was amazing what we could do, um, in that training area. And do you guys, do they ever go out west, Western America to train? Yeah. That's, we'd send people out all the, so every spring and try to get people out and do, um, you know, extended training trips in the Sierra out in Colorado, training with, with mountain guides. And a lot of those guys are on the similar track as I am. Like they're going through the, the American Mount Guts Association instructor track at the same time. Is the school run by National Guard and reservists or is there active duty guys up there? Is it like, is it an active duty place to get stationed as well for army dude? So this is the, the interesting thing about it is that it, it started as a pure National Guard school, but because they were so effective and oh gosh, I'm going, I can't quote the exact 2001, 2002, early 2000s, the army co-opted the school and it was like, you're no longer a National Guard school. You're going to be the army school. So it's staffed by National Guard, Vermont National Guard people funded by big army answers tactically to the maneuver center of excellence down at, at Fort Bending, Georgia. Um, but administratively controlled by the Vermont National Guard. It's mom and mom and dad. We had like two Christmases and both parents are divorced. How many people are, how many people are stationed there? Um, what's the, how big is the instructor staff? It's like 30 to 35 instructors at any given time. Some of them are full time. Some of them are part time. Some of them come on like temporary contracts. And then there's just a couple of officers. Like there's the commander, the ops officer, uh, and, and then the training officer. So, uh, and the rest are all NCOs and they're for the most part, like pretty amazing NCOs. So that's the best cast kept secret in the army. I think it sounds awesome. And what do you ever interact with the Marine Corps Bridgeport Mount Warfare? We try there. I went out there once on a, on a, um, um, a, uh, like a, like orientation mission, I guess. Like they invited us out and we're talking, talking at the end of the conversation. I was like, Hey, you know, is there anything we can do for you? Like just let us know. And they're like, huh, right. Um, because their program is amazing. Like they've got an amazing setup there. And I think they were just like, yeah, little brother, if we need you, we'll call you. Um, so we had some interaction with them, but I, I, they're, I'm jealous. They have a great program. They have, they have, I mean, it's great location. Good Lord. Yeah. Um, all right. So you do that for how long, how long are you in that role for? Three years. Yeah. And then did you decide you're going to stay on active duty after that? So that's when, uh, general, general night through, um, one of his, uh, one of his, um, his staff officers, uh, basically directed me. He was like, you're going to go to North Macedonia. Um, and, and, you know, be the liaison at the embassy in North Macedonia. So, uh, general night is the, for those of you who don't know, he's the, he's the, uh, adjutant general of the Vermont national guard. He was on this podcast, five oh five. He was with us in Ramadi. He was one of the guys, uh, getting, getting it done in the tactical operations center in Ramadi. Great guy. And, uh, he provides us with honey or syrup maple syrup. Yeah. One of my thinking honey, it's like Vermont. He probably does honey too. Yeah. And, uh, pickles as well and salsa. Don't forget that. Yeah. Which, which you said to the best pickles and the best salsa you've ever had. Yep. The best salsa you've ever had is from a, a dude from Vermont. Yeah. Yeah. A general from Vermont. And I have salsa experience too. Yeah. No, very experienced, very highly experienced salsa. He was going to send some back, but he said he's out for the season. So does he have a name for the salsa? Is there like some kind of name on it? I don't know. I didn't catch it under anything like that. No, he just makes it. It's like, it's like, but it has like a label on it. Okay. Yeah. You don't remember what it says. I didn't catch it. You know, I was too busy eating it, but it is what it is. It was good though. Jack. So he tells you how you got to get a real job in the army. Yeah. He's like, you're going to go to the embassy and, and do this embassy thing. And this is a super exciting time too, because North Macedonia is like on the verge of joining NATO. And so my friend, Gene, Gene Enriquez, who was also in Ramadi with you guys, but he, I called him before this. I was like, can you tell me any stories about Ramadi? He was like, dude, I was an E3. Like, I know, I don't know. I can't tell you anything. But anyway, so Gene was there with you all in Ramadi, but, um, and now he's at this point, he's, he's an officer. He's a major. Um, he gets North Macedonia across the NATO finish line. And then I show up like three months later and, and, you know, it's like, okay, what do you do now? They're in NATO, like what's next for a new NATO member. Um, and, you know, this is the best mission commander ever gotten was from a department of state ambassador. So ambassador Burns, who's the, uh, the, uh, the ambassador to North Macedonia calls me in her office and she's like, Hey, great to have you. Um, here's what I need you to do. Solidify North Macedonia into NATO silence. And I'm like, okay, uh, any, any guidance, ma'am? She's like, don't do anything illegal or moral and ethical, but get them solidified into NATO. And I'm like, okay, Roger that. I'm like, that's it. That was the conversation. And so we spend the next two years, like basically wild Westing that place. And it's like, you know, carry a strike groups in the med, get F 18 hornets to fly in and like drop bombs in there. Uh, they've got this amazing training area. Like give the F 18s in, you know, call 10th special forces group of Germany, Hey, we got F 18s coming in. Can you guys come down on this date? You know, like, and they're like, yeah, absolutely. So they come down and we're driving live, dropping live ordinance in the middle of North Macedonia, like planning these. I mean, we did a huge airborne operation. The UK, Italy, US, I forget, it was like 4,000 people. They did like a mass tag jump in. Like it is nuts. And we're going 110 miles an hour. Um, and then it all starts to make sense because Russian invades Ukraine. And we're like, okay. And you're, you're, that's where you are when Russian invaded Ukraine. Yeah. Yeah. We like, so we've been, you know, we've kind of been tracking and watching it in the news and looking at the buildup. And then, uh, yeah, one day I wake up and look at my phone and it's like, you know, Russian frontline elements. I've got a text from the, uh, the ODC chief office defense cooperation is like, Hey, you know, briefing at the MC at nine o'clock, I get in here. And so we go in and, you know, to the classified area and they kind of fill us in on where you surprised. We were not, we had sort of been seeing things and been filled in. It was, it was, it wasn't a question of like, if it was more a question of like, when is it going to happen? So I was like, okay, it happened there. There it is. And so from then it was like, how do we help? Um, North Macedonia, tiny, tiny little country. Um, the ambassador always said that they punched above their weight. You know, they immediately start emptying out their storehouses to get anything that they can old, old like Warsaw packed, uh, Warsaw packed ammunition and, and equipment over to Ukraine and trying to hook them up. Um, so that was, that was like the effort for the next few months. It was like, get anything we can to Ukraine and to help them out. Um, so it was an interesting time. What is your, you know, when you look at the way that war has gone since then, what was your assessment right now? Okay. I don't think I'm paid to do this. Um, I mean, I think that the, the bottom line assessment is Russia can't win. Like if, if we allow them to win in Ukraine, it's going to empower them to do anything they want in the Balkans as well. Um, in the Baltic region. Uh, I mean, there's all sorts of, there's all sorts of issues with this information that they're doing in the, in the Balkans, you know, trying to turn Serbia in their favor, um, you know, surveys of proxy state, uh, you know, causing issues on Europe's doorstep and in Kosovo. Um, and then I don't even want to talk about that, like the Baltics up north. And it's like, okay, what if they decide to take a little enclave in Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia of native Russian speakers? Right. It's just, it's, it's like the, it's like the appeasement situation from the 30, 38, 39 all over again. Right. Like if you allow Russia to take this little bit, then they're just going to be in bold and to take more and this goes back to the Russian Cape Russia story, right? Like we're in a difficult situation, but in order to win, we've got to make some, some risky decisions. I think you, you, you said the phrase Russia can't win. And what you meant by that, now that you've completed the statement is like, Russia can't be allowed to win. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But no, they could certainly win. Yeah. I was going to say, they can. Yeah. It's, you know, they just have the, the war of attrition. They can continue to go and Ukraine has a limited number of people and that's a real problem. Yeah. Um, you know, and I always, you know, unfortunately it's just a war is just a, the, the cliche thing of like war is a test of wills. Well, it is. And it's like a, it's like a test where you really think you can win and I really think I can win. And because if you really don't think you can win, you'll probably be like, you know what, I'm good. But if you think you can win, you're going to keep going. And if I think I'm going to win, I'm going to keep going. And that's kind of, it seems like that's where they're at. Yeah. That's what's happened. Because, and in my opinion, like the Ukrainians, they can't, there's no, this is, this is an existential war. Like if they lose, that's it for Ukraine. So every man in Ukraine will fight to the death. And that's just bloodbath and how much of that can Russia take? And what does that look like on the world stage? So. Well, but then there's also the issue that, that every man in Russia is not fighting. Yeah. Right. Like that, that's part of the problem is that the, the, the national commitment to it. Um, it's, it's not there. I mean, like I, you know, my travels, you know, run into Ukrainian as Ukrainian person, you know, the United States or, you know, over in Central Europe or something like that. And you're like, oh, you're here. I, yeah, yeah, I left. Okay. Well, that's like one less person who's over there, like actually trying to fight. So, and, and the fact that you will, you see the, the videos of like guys being forcibly recruited and well, why are they having to do that? Cause yeah, everyone says, oh, that's so terrible. Well, yeah, it is. And at the same time, why, why, why do they have to do that? So yeah, I guess I, I should have re rephrased that. Um, certainly the politicians are willing to expend every willing Ukrainian's life to maintain what they can. Yeah. I mean, I think what Ukraine has done so far is amazing. Oh yeah, for sure. Like what they have done against is Russia is, is, is mind blowing. Um, but they don't have the personnel and they don't have the equipment. And I'm talking way above my very good at this point, but I, I guess I'm, I'm speaking now as Nate Fry adjunct professor who teaches international relations at university of Vermont. Right. And so this is not me as a battalion commander, but me as like a sort of international relations walk talking about this. And it's, it's, it's this idea that like they're going to run out of resources unless someone NATO, EU, the United States decides to back them on it because we see that the return on our investment is, is greater than us not being involved. Um, I think that's where we stand right now. Like there's been a sort of this trickle of like, Oh, we'll give you this, we'll give you this, we'll give you this. And a lot of people much smarter than me and more informed have said, like, what have, what would happen if we had just given them the full weight of everything in the first six months? It might be done right now, but we just trickled it. So. All right. Um, so you get done with that job. What came next? So, uh, then I went back, I spent a year as the XO at Mount Battalion. Um, and then at that point, I was like, there's nothing really left for me to do on active duty. And, and that's where I said, look, I've got this idea that I've been nursing in my head. Uh, I mean, I say a decade, probably more than that, because it's all about like making mistakes and getting better. I've been making mistakes for a long time right now. Um, so I said, look, I'm going to, uh, the tree thing didn't work out. I'm going to go get an MBA, uh, learn about business and how to do spreadsheets and investments and stuff like that. Um, and I'm going to launch this, uh, um, you know, be a traditional guard guy, you know, one week in about two weeks a year, and I'm going to launch this, this startup. Where'd you go to business school? Uh, university of Vermont. Right there. Easy, convenient. And then how long is business school? This was a compressed program as a year long. So it's just like. And did you, what'd you learn? Um, I learned math, which is good. Like being able to speak, being able to speak the language of investors, I think has been the biggest thing for me. Um, you know, when they come in the room and start talking about like equity and cap tables and, you know, like, you know, what do you, you know, what are we going to do? And you know, in terms of like seed seed rounds and pre seed and series A and all the stuff. And it's like, I wouldn't have known how to do that before business school. So the hard, hard skills were really great. Um, I think the, what I would call like the soft skills, right? I've liked leadership and organizational management, uh, at least at my program, we're, we're pretty lacking. Um, and, and honestly, that again, it was part of the, the inspiration for the, like for the startup and what we're trying to do. Cause I think it's, and you guys know this, right? It's, it's incredibly hard to teach people how to lead and make decisions through a book and through lectures. And I think that's a big flaw in my program and other programs of, um, one of my lieutenants is down at, gosh, I'm going to mess this up. Text saying him, are you tea? I think he's at university Texas. Um, and he's doing business school down there and it's a military guy with a deployment and he's like, yeah, same thing. Like hard skills are great. All the soft skills about leadership. He's like, this is not great. Like professors, well-meaning and well researched and studied talking in class about, Hey, this is how you do this stuff. And he's like, that's not actually how it plays out. So, um, I think business school is great for teaching like business, but leadership side of things, um, it's challenging. So your idea is what's the, what's the idea that you had the back of your mind? Yeah. All this time. The idea in the back of my head is that they put it like very simply the, the US military, um, probably in general, I can speak in particular about the US army. The US army is over indexing continually over indexing on equipment and hardware and far under investing on training people and skills. One thing that it's, I have a company called Eshalon front. We do leadership training. We do leadership consulting. And one of the things that we do is we have something called the FTX field training exercise and we have these really high end laser tag systems. And we teach people like the most rudimentary tactics, but then we start giving them missions and we send them out on missions to detain, capture, kill, uh, set up overwatch positions, do hostage rescues. We, they do all this super high speed stuff. Not that they're going to be proficient at hostage rescue, but they get put in these scenarios where they have to make decisions. They have to lead. And the reason that we did that is because when I was in the SEAL teams, the last few years I was in, I ran the training for the West Coast SEAL teams. And so we were running these big giant FTXs. And that's where you'd see leaders actually get, you know, punched in the face with reality and have to go through real time making decisions. You know, there's some, there's some things in life. It's the same thing with Jiu Jitsu, by the way. You know, you, you can tell someone for three days how to stand up on a surfboard. You can tell them for a month. You could, you could, you could, you could use graphics and have the best lectures in the world explaining to someone how to stand up on a surfboard. And they still have to go out and stand up a surfboard. And it's going to take them 12 tries, 20 tries, 40 tries before they do it one time. And once they do it one time, they go, okay. And they're going to be able to go okay with it. Or they're going to be able to, they have a leg to stand on. They're going to start being able to get up. So the thing with leadership is like, I can tell you how cover and move works over and over and over again. I can put slides up here and all that will put some of the context into your head, but you still have to be put in that situation where you have to see it for yourself. And the reason I said it's like Jiu Jitsu, I've been explaining to people lately. There's a lot of different, um, methodologies for training Jiu Jitsu. And some of them are, Hey, like drill, just drill. You drill this move over and over and over again. You learn the move, then you drill the move. And the other end of the spectrum is you don't even learn the move. You just get put in positions and then you try and figure out what to do. And the correct way, what I will say is the correct way is the way I explain to people is there are, let's say 10 things that you have to do in Jiu Jitsu to make a move work. And I can teach you five of them. And the other five, you have to figure out by doing them. And some people, it's a really good instructor that's got a really special move that they are really good at. Maybe that guy can teach you seven and you got to figure out three on your own. There's always an element that you have to figure out for yourself. That's why you can't just drill the move. You have to live engage with people. You have to go through that. And so it's the same exact thing with leadership. I can tell you five things about what's going to make this work. But until you're in the field, until, you know, someone is yelling at you and you start feeling your emotions flare up and you go, oh, wait a second. Oh, this is this is detachment. I remember Jaco talking about detachment. He said, take a step back, take a breath. OK, look around, nod your head and listen. OK, that's what I'm going to do. But until you get put in that situation, you don't know how to do it. You have to get put in there and see what it feels like. So the idea of not just learning from a book, which look, I've written a bunch of books and I've had plenty of people say, oh, your book really helped me. But they always follow it up with like your book really helped me. And I got put in the situation and I remembered it and I did it. And then they become proficient. So that's that's what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. So I think that the best way to think about this really comes down to an idea of of like, you know, that I love John Boyd, right? John Boyd and the Oodaloop, right? And so the Oodaloop is observatory and decide act, right? So the first two aspects of the Oodaloop are are mental cognitive, right? Like I read a book, I understand the book, but then I have to make this jump from like the understanding to actually putting into practice, right? Is exactly what you're saying. And so what we see across the army, unfortunately, is is it's easier to put it's easier to put money into something tangible, right? It's it's very straightforward for me to make a knife to make a missile to make, you know, an unmanned aerial system. So we're making these things. And at the same time, we're cutting funding to the opportunities that are so pivotal for people range school. We are watering down the, you know, the standards for, you know, like in CO education system, basic leader course, right? Advanced leader course, right? So we're eroding standards. We're taking away these training opportunities. And then are we surprised when we, when like people in the military can't achieve the training outcomes we want them to where they're like, well, we gave you the knife. Well, sure, you gave me the knife and you gave me a book how to use the knife, but didn't you actually give me a, put me in a position where I had to learn how to use it? Well, no, there wasn't enough budget for that. Yeah, that's a problem. That's a problem. And so when you talk about like making these FTXs, yeah, absolutely. Like I am a product of a well funded GWAT era army. When I was a platoon leader with five to striker, I think I probably did 10 live fires. I mean, like, like cost in an 18 months time, like so many live fires. So I get really good at fire and maneuver, right? That was, it was great. Did you say 10 live fires? Yeah. Like platoon level, like, so platoon level live fires we were doing. Um, we got Yakima training center in central Washington. Yeah. I'm gonna start like, like static ranges, but like go out to Yakima training center and like, Oh, here's your striker. Here's, you know, here's the scenario, like drive on dismount, you know, run in, shoot the buildings up for any, like an 18 months time. It was, it was nuts. Yeah. Yeah. Harry, Colonel Harry Tonell was the brigade commander at the time, come from 173rd and that guy was like, we will use every drop of ammunition we have to just live fire all the time. In the SEAL teams, we are so blessed because we would do live fire. Like, I, like I wouldn't, couldn't put a number. It's, it's, it's literally like hundreds of evolutions in a platoon workup. It's crazy. Yeah, we don't get that. Yeah, I know. It's just one of those things where I go, gosh, you know, like I forget how totally lucky we were. And that was like mid G WAP for you. You know what I mean? That's when you're going to get the, you know, when you said strikers, I was like, okay, cause that's it's next, a little next level. If you're out there doing live fire with the strikers and they're putting down 25 millimeter chain gun and stuff like that. That's, that's, I could see a little bit of a smaller number. Um, but yeah, we, we do live fire. Like, yeah, it's our job. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think an imps through a platoon leader, if they get a couple of platoon live fires, like cool. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I like kind of train. Cause like the overall training progression, you know, let's say you're a platoon leader for 18 months and you're going to go, you know, like your training progression, you're going to end up doing buddy team, live fire, team, live fire, squad, live fire, do that a couple of times. And you get a platoon and you go to company, live fire. And then, you know, you reset and go back to it. So yeah, I mean, that's, and the national guard even worse, right? Like if I get a platoon leader, one live fire in the national guard, I'm, I'm stoked. That, that's, um, that's not good. Yeah. That's not good at all. So, so, but to, to the point of like what we're trying to do here, right? Like the army has said, look, these FTX is live fires, um, really resource intensive. Um, take a lot of time, take a lot of money. And a lot of times they're only training like one echelon of people in a certain way. Um, and so, you know, they, you know, we don't get enough live fires, you know, from the standpoint of what we need to do to achieve training proficiency. So the army has identified that and they're like, look, we need to do more in this, what they call like synthetic training, right? So simulators and things like that. But all the simulators that the army is making right now, it's all like shooter, you know, like kinesthetic type things, right? Like, you know, an engagement sales trainer to make me a better shot. Uh, you know, a tank gunnery trainer. And I look at this and go, okay, where are we, where are we getting reps and sets on? Difficult leadership decisions, moral ethical decisions, tactical dilemmas. When I go left, I'm screwed. If I go right, I'm screwed too. Like which we like, where, like, where do we, you know, where do we pull that off? And then even one level deeper than that is the data. Right. So like, if I get on engagement skills trainer, you know, like a really, you know, good marksmanship trainer, it's going to tell me like, Oh, look, you know, you're losing your sight picture, you're jerking the, you know, you're jerking the finger on the trigger, like, you know, you're breathing at the wrong time. Right. We've got data analytics behind that. So, you know, here's the dream that we're thinking about, like with, with my company, Spire, like, can you, can you pattern like the complexity of mental decision-making and help under someone understand? Look, you know, Jaco, you are firmly in the like quick decision, you know, amygdala, like rapid gut instinct decision-making, or, you know, are you more in the sort of prefrontal, prefrontal cortex reasoning, you know, like, where, where do you sit in that? And then having the ability to say, like, look, we know where you're at now. How do we coach you to get, to be a more well-rounded person? So you can switch, sort of toggle back and forth between amygdala and prefrontal cortex, right? Can I go back and forth relatively easy? Like that's a skill you have to practice. Um, and I'm like, that's Nate Fry from experience, right? Because I was all amygdala for the first 10 years of my career, like everything was just like, you know, rapid fire and then had to train to get to the point where it's like, I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to slow my emotions. What word do you use it for? You used a word earlier, like a deliberate, a relaxed look around and make a call. Detach. Detach. Yeah. That's what I guess. Yeah. So like detach from the situation, like that's a, that's a muscle. And so can we put people in situations high rep and high set so it doesn't take a ton of time, ton of money, ton of ammunition, like all this other stuff. So that on a, let's call it a daily basis on a daily basis, Nate Fry can run through a scenario to help me move from being a back of the brain, lizard brain thinker to a prefrontal cortex, more reasoning thinker and know when to distinguish between the two. Yeah. There was a conversation with a young military crew talking to a group of guys and they were talking about how, well, the, the training isn't reflecting exactly what's happening on the battlefield right now. You know, and so, and I get it. Right. We always tried to make the training reflect what was happening on the battlefield right now, but now you've got, you know, drones coming in and all these sensors are coming in and all these different things are coming in. And so, well, how do we, you know, that's the training doesn't reflect it. And the, the battlefield is changing quickly. But what I tried to explain from a leadership perspective is that it's the same thing that you're saying, which is if you take someone and you put them in a challenging situation with dilemmas and problems and pressure, it doesn't really matter what's causing those things. You can learn to make decisions whether, you know, you and I are getting murdered and we're sitting there getting murdered and we got to figure out what we're going to do. That's, there's pressure, there's danger, there's time constraints and we got to make a decision on what we're going to do. Cool. It doesn't matter if we're getting murdered or if there's a VB ID, you know, in a vehicle driving towards us, we still got it. We're in a situation where we got to make a call or if there's a drone overhead or, you know, we have people that are, we got wounded guys. Like it doesn't really matter what we have to learn how to do is take a step back, detach, look around, make a call, make an iterative call that will move us somewhere in the right direction and make a, get the feedback. So you learn how to use the skill regardless of what the variables are. And I think people lose track of that very quickly that, oh, you don't, you don't need, you know, we, we run drills with corporations. Where, you know, we give them some kind of a problem, like some kind of a rudimentary problem, like, oh, take three different Lego sets, put them in one box, mix them all together and then give them the pictures and like, Hey, build this stuff. If someone doesn't lead that, if someone doesn't step up, if they don't cover for each other, if they don't keep things simple, if, if they don't do that, like things will just fall apart. And even, even putting together Legos, like people will start yelling and screaming at each other, you do that's the, that's the wrong part. Like you see that? These are with grown adult business people yelling. And you think, okay, so they haven't learned how to detach. They haven't learned how to take a step back. They're letting their emotions drive their decision making process. So these things are very problematic. And you are a hundred percent correct that if you can put people iteratively in these situations, and that's exactly what we do now at Eshalon Front with the FDX, it's also exactly what I used to do was just put a platoon and the platoon leadership in high stress scenarios with a lot of problems and they've got to sort them out and they can sort them out a different way each time. But they learn what they learn is they learn how to sort things out under pressure, under time constraints. They learn how to make things happen. And it is a skill. And I think that's one of the biggest problems with leadership is people don't understand that just like any sport, the vast majority of the sport is skill. It's not natural gift. Like rock climbing is a great example, right? You know, the amount of skill people underestimate the amount of skill and rock climbing you're going rock climbing, which else? Jim at a gym. Yeah. Did you were you good at it? No. Yeah. You see, are you a weak person? No, no, really? Well, check. You see what I'm saying? Like you can have someone that has the skill of rock climbing can completely out climb someone that's strong, even so even someone that specializes in like pull ups. If someone's a good rock climber, I've climbed with I suck at rock climbing, but I've I've gone rock climbing with people that I could probably do. Let's call it 10 times more pull ups than that. Yeah. And they can out climb me without without breaking a sweat because they have the technique, they have the skill of rock climbing. So there is skill involved. Leadership. And yes, there are natural gifts that you may have for leadership. Some people are, you know, a little bit more articulate. Some people are a little bit calmer. Those things are really beneficial. But just like someone might have a naturally strong grip, right? And that's going to give them a little bit of tendency to be a little bit better as a rock climber. Well, guess what? That pales in comparison to actually learning the skill of rock climbing. So I think you're onto something. Well, in the thing that. They're frustrating me too, as we look at the advent of like just if I'll be amazing technologies like AI, the one that really gets me is that talk about like brain, brain implants, you know, it's like, oh, I'm going to put a chip in your brain and like that's going to help you perform better. We're, we're, we're skipping a step. We're skipping a lot of steps actually. And that step is, is some sort of structured mental cognitive training. Like, you hear this all the time. Like we, we, we use a fraction of our brain. It's not because we're not capable of doing it. I think it's because like we don't have the training. We don't have the research. We don't have the mentorship. And so before we jump, and it's like the idea of medicine, right? Like we're not going to go from, okay, you have an infection in your arm to like, let's just cut the arm off. Right. Somewhere in there, I have various interventions that I can, I can use to try to help me not cut my arm off, right? And so before we jump to what I'm going to put a neuro link in your brain, you know, to help you, you know, perform better. What about all the other things we're not doing right now? Um, you know, so when you, when you talk about like what you're doing with us on front and the FTX is, you know, my question is, and Dr. like next step, how do you make sure that over the course of months after that intervention that they actually learned, right? They read your book and then they said, Oh, I learned something about it. Cool. Where were they before they read your book? Where were they right after and where were they right after they actually got to implement it? Right. Can you imagine being able to chart that with the technology we have right now, some sort of machine learning technology running through, you know, digital simulations where you can go, you know, I see where Echo is at before we talked. Now I see where he's at after he's read my book and talked, and then I can check him again in six months and be like, wow, you really have grown. Like we know you're growing as opposed to, well, you thought you're grown, but like you haven't actually moved. So now we can reenter, you know, we can, we can do another intervention and say, okay, where do you think the hangup is? Right. So it, it, it, it instead, like it enhances the dialogue that I should be having between me and a company commander, between me and a platoon leader, between a core CEO and, you know, one of their mid-level managers. And we don't have that right now. Yeah. Because, because we don't have this tool yet, the diagnostics are come from my instructor staff at Ashland Front, because we can, we can see and we can do diagnostics of what the issue is, but that takes us interacting, right? And observing. So that's, you know, it's expensive for the clients. And, you know, clearly if we had a way where we could say, oh, here's, you know, let's see how you're doing now or, and go through this protocol and you're getting tracked, that would be great. Very beneficial. Cause right now people, you know, just like anything else with, um, technology, it's, it's manually performed by us human beings, the instructors at Ashland Front. And we're good at it, but there's a limited supply of instructors at Ashland Front. So this is where it would be very, very beneficial. It's data points, right? And I was just talking to someone about this the other day, uh, cause they were asking me about avalanche training and they were like, uh, because I do avalanche training on the side and they were like, well, what's, what's the thing with like that, that pit where you know, you dig in the snow and you tap it. And I'm like, yeah, that's the worst thing that has ever happened to avalanche training. Right. Because like everyone thinks, oh, I'm going to take an avalanche course and I'm going to learn how to dig a pit in the snow and I'm going to tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap on it. And it's going to tell me everything I need to know. Right. And it's like looking for weeklares in the snow. Guess what you did after you spent 45 minutes or an hour digging your pit in the snow and like tap, tap, happen around it. You got one data point for one spot at one given time. Do we make decisions like in from a scientific standpoint, based on a single data point? No, we want multiple data points. Right. And so when I'm teaching avalanche, it's like, okay, how can we get as many data points as possible and many different aspects and elevations as we possibly can. So instead of doing one big intervention, like a 45 minute snow pit, uh, you know, I'm going around and I'm like, all right, I'm doing a hand shear. I'm doing a shovel shear all technical terms, right? But I'm like doing stuff that allows me to get a lot of data really, really quickly. So that by the time I'm ready to drop into that back country line, I've got a much better idea of where the avalanche chains are exists and whether it exists in my spot. And I've made that call like, okay, like this is safe or this is not safe. So I would, I would say that what the army is doing right now in many ways is like we're digging a big snow pit. It takes a lot of time or research light energy and we get one data point on that platoon leader. If we're, if we're lucky, right? One, maybe two, right? In my case, I got 10, you know, but like not as much as you did, right? As opposed to what if we had a tool that allowed us to get a data point every day? Like, and it didn't take that long. Or the same way as like digging a hand shear only takes me 90 seconds. If I had a way, you know, 10 minutes a day, right? I could get a data point on where you're at as a leader. 30 data points over the course of, over, over the course of a month, 90 over a quarter, holy smokes. Like what does that allow me to do as a mentor as a company commander now in regards to looking at a, at a lieutenant and saying, like, here's where your strengths, here's where your weaknesses are. Like that's, we can make decision off that data. So that's the idea. That's the idea. That's the idea that you rolled in with. And you went to business school with that idea already in your head. Yeah. And then you get done with, with that. Was there any, any other major points from a business school besides a Excel spreadsheet and whatnot? Excel? No, I mean, it networks, networks, networks. I mean, like, I think starting a company, especially like a startup is, is like pulling the string on a sweater. Like you don't have the grand picture in front of you. Like you start with asking one person, one thing, and they lead you to a person and that person leads you to two people. And so like what started in business school as a, you know, me asking a professor, Hey, can you get me a contact with somebody, you know, who runs a business accelerator? Right. And I talked to that person and then, you know, they next, next, next. And I'm like, I think business school, and that's for anybody who's listening to this, who's like, Oh, I'm getting out of the army, you know, what, what, or I'm getting out of the military. What, what do I want to do? Maybe I want to go to business school, choose a business school that has the networks into the industry that you want to be in, because they've all got their own thing, right? Stanford is going to put you in tech. You know, I don't know, UPenn is going to put you in medicine. So I think that's the biggest advice I've got for people. And they're like, I don't think they're going to business school. Like, great. What industry do you think you want to be in? Go find a school that does that. Because really what you're paying for some hard skills, paying a lot for like the network that is going to help you launch whatever you want to do. So that's what it did for me. And then when did you, when did you take over as battalion commander? At the beginning of the school. So it was like coinciding. I started this school in August, change command was in August. And you took over for Colonel Pelletier, right? Oh, no, no, no, he was long gone. He was long gone at this point. No, I took over for my friend, Steph and Asper. And yeah, that was August 2024. So we're coming up on 18 months at this point. And then took over to awkward, like knowing that we were also deploying this summer, and then I was going to have to build the business at the same time. And it just had to make a call and I was like, well, I'm just going to get started and I'll figure it out once I get there. So yeah, now I'm kind of looking down the barrel of, you know, deploying this summer. How long is the deployment for? It's door to door going to be about 11 months when you think about like the pre-training away from home, nine to 10 months in country. And then the demobilization would come back. How often does the National Guard unit like deploy currently? Yeah, it depends on the unit. So this is one of the, you know, the great things about the Vermont Guard, the Mount Battalion, if you look back at the op tempo of the, you know, the deployment cycle of the Vermont Guard. So Ramadi was 2005, 2006, right? And then third battalion, the Mount Battalion deployed to Afghanistan in 2010. 2015, we were on the patch chart to go to deployment. So we went to NTC, or excuse me, went to JRTC, but the deployment didn't get canceled. So, but still went through the whole cycle. 2020, they deployed to CentCom and now 2025 as well. So it's like a five year cycle. It's been, it's been a consistent five year cycle for this battalion, which is not something, I mean, every National Guard unit is on a five year cycle. Very few of them are like, yeah, every five years you're going to deploy. Actually deploy. Yeah. And I think that's, that's a testament and you saw it in Ramadi. It's a testament to the type of unit that, you know, the, the, the, the National Vermont Guard produces 1172 and 3172. And that's where you're at right now. Yeah. So what's the status of the business? So the company's called Spire. Yeah. And then, and the, the product that you're working on is called mentor. Mentor is the software program. And what's, where's it at right now? Like, what's the current status? Testing with ROTC programs. So University of Vermont, Dickens College, Utah Valley University and University of Texas, El Paso are all, are all working with us right now. You know, unpaid pilot, beta feedback, you know, the cadets are using it, telling us what they like, what they don't like. And we just fix it as fast as we can and get it right back out to the field. Is it, is it augmented reality right now? No. So what is it, what does it consist of right now? So now it's just a, it's a, it's a desktop web app, right? So you use either a tablet or a laptop to access the simulator. So you work through the simulator, which are all built on cadets specific situations, like learning battle drills or going through troop leading procedures. And it puts you in a story, right? Like you're the third platoon leader. So it's like a video game. Uh, yeah, I, I, I try not to say like gamified because I think people automatically think like, Oh, it's supposed to be fun. It's like, I don't know. Maybe it's fun. I, I, I, um, but I'm saying it's graphically and whatnot, like it's set up like a video. It's built in unity game engine and my designers, um, that the work on the team are, are game designers. So kind of what we're trying to do with it is make it, um, and meet the audience where they're at, right? Like a lot of these, a lot of these RTC cadets, like they're very used to call a duty, um, you know, bought or skate all these like super, um, you know, super popular video games. And so if you can just make this a degree away, um, much more likely to adopt it. I'm impressed with video game. Like video games, I've never really played them, but when I see them, they're, they're freaking impressive. So if you start throwing really good combat leadership dilemmas in there for people, I think it's kind of awesome actually. Yeah. No, I mean, and that's, that's the simulation is the means it's the, it's the vehicle, um, that we use to gather the data on how you, on how echo thinks reacts, um, and, and then eventually where we're going with it. And I was talking about this earlier, right? Is that there's a dialogue, a two-way dialogue, right? There's a dialogue between the decision analytics engine and the simulator. So that as I change, grow and develop, right? The simulations are changing with me. I'm not waiting to, you know, manually select. I want to go to the hard level and super Mario cart, right? Like it's, it's automatically giving me the harder level as I get better. And then there's, and this is crucial, right? There's also the dialogue between the simulator. All right. Excuse me, with the decision analytics, the cadet and their instructor, right? Because we are not taking the human out of the loop here, right? Like it's just like interpersonal mentorship is, is the most important part of all this we're trying to do is make it so that instead of you showing up cold and not understanding like what cadet fry needs from you, you know, you can go into this data analytics dashboard and go like, I see exactly where he's struggling. And when I come into your office, instead of spending 30 minutes trying to figure it out, like we go right to the chase, right? We're right to it. Like, Hey, I see you're struggling with this. Like what are you been doing? How, like, how can we help you with that? Right. So the dialogue between instructor student and the digital interface and then between the student, the digital interface and the simulator is sort of like the, the, the value of what we think we are adding here. But we're still going to need to go in the field sometimes. All the time. And speaking of going to the field, just give us a quick brief on that. The, was it Ada Vice? Ada Vice ski race. Yeah. The Vice raid. Give us a quick brief on that. Cause I read the article, but just for people to hear about what it is and what takes place there. Yeah. The, the advice raid is, well, I say it was, it's been discontinued. Hopefully they'll start it back up again, but it's that Austria built it as the, the world champion, world championship for military ski mountaineering hosted by Austria. That's kind of an awesome. It's pretty sick. It's pretty sick. Yeah. It's hosted by Austria and their own, they have this like mountain training site south of Innsbruck, Austria. And this place is like nuts. You know, you drive up in this stone building surrounded by this, you know, these towering peaks and they've got their own little ski lift there. And then all of it is, is more, all the rest of it is like human powered, human powered, like uphill downhill. Um, so we, I was at mountain school, 2017, 2018, whatever to Austria. And, um, this Austrian colonel who ran it and it's got him Colonel Leonard. And he comes up to me one day and, and he's very blunt and he's like, why haven't I ever seen America and the advice raid? I'm like, I don't know, sir, cause I don't know what it is. And he goes, well, let me explain it to you. He explains like this, you know, military ski mountaineering. So I'm like, this sounds amazing. We're, we're going to make this happen. Um, so we're driving back. We got to fly out of, uh, Frankfurt's, we're driving up to V's bottom to US army, um, Europe headquarters. And, um, I'm like making PowerPoint slides on this thing in the car. I'm like, I'm going to sell this to somebody before I leave Austria. We walk into US army, Europe headquarters, long story short, found the right guy, put these slides on his desk and we're like, we want to do this. And he's like, how much does it cost? We're like $50,000. He's like, oh, easy pocket change. Okay, cool. So, um, so we train up our first $80,000. Yeah. Did I say 50? Um, so we train our first even up in 2019, total bad news bears, right? Like scrapping people from all over the place. There's not a lot of people in the army that can actually ski. Right. And this is, um, you know, for the leader or for the listeners haven't. You're like ski toward before. Like what, what we're talking about here is going uphill on skis, right? And so like your, your heel is free in your ski and you put this fuzzy carpet thing on the bottom of called a skin. And, and then that allows you to climb uphill. Um, you know, I'm pretty steep slope. And then this is a 48 hour race. And so we've got a pack with, you know, gear sustainment. Uh, you've got your M4 on the side of the pack, right? So the pack weighs like 40 pounds and they make you carry this sled with you. And that adds some more weight to it. So it's just like, it's not like recreational skiing. You're like, you had a 40 pound pack and I'm going uphill. Um, and it's awesome and miserable at the same time. Um, so we're in 2019, do a good job. Uh, 2021 it was canceled because of COVID. And so 2023 we're like ready to go on this thing. We put together, uh, two teams and, and went over and, and competed. And, um, you know, the biggest thing for us is, um, you know, in the end, the Austrian's gave us an amazing compliment, you know, cause this is a competition, but it's also it's training. Um, and at the end, when you know, these guys came up to us and said, like, like, we're really proud to have you guys in Americans here with us because you clearly understand the purpose of the race. And it's not just about, it's not just about training and winning. It's also about functioning as a team in the mountains and being able to actually do mountain warfare. Um, so yeah. How far do you transit during the thing? Oh gosh, it's like, it's like 18, 16, 17, 18 miles a day. And then in total, I don't see it's like 12,000 feet of gain and loss over, over two days. So it's like the first day, you know, you do like 15 miles, like 6,000 feet of gain and loss, you spend the night in a tent, um, like a Bivouac site. And the next day you do the other leg of the course, um, which is, yeah, they other like 12, 13, 14 miles and then another, um, 6,000 foot gain and loss. And then along the way, you're also doing tactical task, right? So there's like repelling medical evacuation. There's pictures of you guys shooting. Shooting. Yeah. There's like high angle course. You have to shoot and pop balloons, grenade throwing. It's like, you know, it's a, it's a, you know, tactical tasks interspersed. Um, and you know, they expect you have a designated leader. You have to stay together, you know, as a team the entire time. Um, so it really is about like, can you as a squad size element do actual mountain warfare? Right? It's not a like goes fast. You can, I mean, it is a race, but like if there's a strategy to it, right? Because if you're just as fast as you can, but you fail all the tactical task, you still don't necessarily win. Right. Right. And, uh, do you do Schimo now too? Yeah. Yeah. And are you like competitive on that? Is there a recreational world out there that's doing Schimo? Yeah, it's in the Olympics for the first time actually. So Olympics, you know what this is Echo Charles? No. Burrow. So it's like ski mountaineering. Yeah. Is that what it is? Yeah. And you're wearing your, you're wearing your, like your skinning skis, right? So the skis that have the, the free heel bindings and you go up the hill. And when I have like gone ski touring doing this right here, I'm like, basically at maybe a brisk walk. Maybe it's like equivalent of me being like a brisk walk. It's like a hike, you know, just going uphill with skis on. But the Schimo guys are like running. It's freaking crazy. And sometimes you get to points where you can't ski up the hill anymore because it's too steep. And then you have to take your skis off, put them in your pack and just hike up, like run up a freaking hill. And then you get to the top of the hill and you ski down, then you do it over and over again. It's got to be some sick endurance. Like, is that maxing out your endurance? Yeah. I mean, those guys are, the guys that are doing it like those style races are insanely fast. I mean, they're, yeah, they're probably, you know, ultramarathoners in the summer in the winter, they just like turn to this. The interesting thing is a lot of them can't actually ski. They're just, they're really, they're, yeah, they're just like, they're really, really good upillers and then they survive the downhill. It's also hard because the skis are like, why does this thing? Cause you want the skis to be as light as possible. So they're super skinny. The bindings are like super light. You're not, you're not ripping on those things. But yeah, I was, I was up at a big Sky Montana and there was a skimo competition in those guys. You know, I had never seen it before with my own eyes. And so the first time I see these guys, I'm expecting in my mind that they're going to be kind of hiking up and they are freaking running. And I'm like, yo, and then they at the, at big Sky Montana, like they come down, the big Koo are like, they come down all the, the office trails on those little skinny skis and stuff. Yeah. It's, it's kind of epic to be honest with you. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a amazing sport. Um, I think the fact that it's in the Olympics is a testament, like it's, it's growing in popularity. Um, I don't do really like the, um, the like real instance of like, I'm wearing a lacquer and running up the hill as fast as I can. I like the, like the burger backcountry reverses. So there's one called the grand traverse, um, in Colorado, it goes from crested butte to Aspen. So it's like, there's like 40 miles on, I remember 40, 40 kilometers. There's a difference. I remember it's, it's a long race, um, that traverses from one to the other. And so there's like, you know, avalanche, consistent considerations. Some people are doing it on skinny skis. A lot of people are doing on fatter skis because you're actually in bad country terrain. I, I really like those. Um, and then yeah, we're holding a, a schema race in Vermont on the first of March, um, and it's like a 10th mountain division memorial ski race. So where are you having it? It's in Stowe. Um, if you're not a super like 10th mountain division nerd, you know, a lot of people don't realize, but Stowe is sort of the epicenter for a lot of ski culture in the U S like not only from a lift standpoint, but, um, this guy named mini dole, uh, he, um, was the inspiration for the national ski patrol because he broke his leg on the mountain and he was like, yeah, it'd be really nice to remember to come get me out. And so he came out and he organized the national ski patrol. And then he was also so stoked on mountains that he was like, this is World War two time frame. It was like, we really need some mountain troops like Europe does. And so he lobbied to Congress, uh, and the president until they, they finally relented and we're like, Oh, we'll make these mountain troops. And so 10th mountain division came from any dole who was a Stowe skier. Um, so we're, we're doing what we call like the Stowe mountain heritage race. And it's like really celebrating like 10th mountain mountain troops, like our, like our battalion national ski patrol. And so it's more like a back country race we're going to do. There's, there'll be some Lycra people there, but a lot of it too is how far is it going to be? It's, um, 11 miles and 4,000 feet of gain and loss. I was reading something about the, um, the mountain patch. Oh, the new, the Rams head. No, like some kind of unauthorized, but authorized patch. That's the Rams head. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the deal with that? That's pretty cool history. That's a, that's, yeah. That's something generations of mountain school people, uh, have been fighting with. So the guard, when it was first, when the mountain school was first introduced in like the eighties, they made this, uh, you know, like a, um, a distinctive, um, qualification patch of it was a, like a goat or Rams head. So if you're a mountain qualified, you got to wear the Rams head. So it was a national guard thing, but people who went to the school were like so stoked on this, this, this Rams head that, you know, they started wearing it. And the army of course was like, that's not an authorized patch. You can't wear that. And people would like secretly wear it. And Greenate just came back out. Yeah. Don't mess with my Rams head. But so, so the, you know, so the army was like, you know, no way you can't wear this thing. Um, and so over decades, like generations of mountain school commanders have been working with the army to try to get it. Like formalized. So it finally got formalized earlier this year. And, uh, my friends who are working at mountain school, it's just a testament to branding, right? He's like, dude, our wait list went from like 15 people to class to like 50 people to class, because now you can wear this, you know, you can wear your bling bling and people are like, I want that bling. So like, yeah, so everyone's stoked on mountain school now because how long is the school, the actual school? Um, the basic course is two weeks. Um, and then there's an advanced course that you do. You can do after that, which is a two week summer and two week winter. So the basic course is either summer or winter. And then the advanced courses is, um, you got to do two weeks in the summer and two weeks in the winter. So you learn how to ice climb and rock climb. Do you get the Rams head for? For basic, for the basic course, for the basic course, a two week course. You get that bling, get the bling. That's awesome. And, uh, that, does that get us up to speed? We talked about, well, we talked about your current position. You talk about spire. We got mentor coming on. Does that get us up to speed? I think so. We cover all the bases story of my life. Uh, where can people find you? So I, I know you got spire tg.com. What is the TG stand for training group? Okay. So you got spire tg.com. It's a relatively barren website right now, but people will be listening to this five years from now. So hopefully by then it's a lot more. You're on LinkedIn, uh, Nathan Fry, Vermont national guard. Where else can people find you? Anyone else? Uh, check out the mountain battalion insta. Um, so we're at mountain battalion. It's pretty easy to, pretty easy to find. Um, yeah, we try to post in there as much as we can. Check out the gram right on, right on. I got a bunch of young kids in the battalion. They do the gram for me. So. Yeah, well, get the word out. I mean, it's like, like you said, it's a hidden secret, but it's such a important part of the military. And, you know, I, I, before we hit record today, I started telling you a little bit about like the, uh, the SEAL team and the SEAL team two back in the day. Uh, they had like a huge focus on mountain warfare and they were like awesome. I showed up there kind of too late for that. Cause I was at SEAL team one when I got out there, but there was still the remnants of, of the, uh, Yukon platoons that were skiing and it was pretty, pretty awesome heritage. And I think they're, they're kind of bringing it back now, which is awesome because you know, that's where we could possibly be fighting in the future. So I'm glad that you guys are getting the word out about what we have to offer here in America. That's awesome. Um, Echo Charles, you got any questions? I do one easy one. You actually will have some, somewhat of an expertise on that. Okay. So playing the bass guitar back in the day, you see, you mentioned power chords, learn a few power chords. I don't think I've ever heard that before. What's a power chord? It's just like basically a sequence of super easy chords that you go through. It's like any, like basically any punk rock and or nickel back song. It's just like, you know, a progression of like, you know, and then like, yeah, I just put them together and let them rip. They can make all kinds of songs with it. You can make any, basically any song. Yeah. The, the, the structure of any song you can play with just power chords and power chords essentially is two notes at a time on a guitar. It's two notes at a time really on a base. It's one. It's just one note. It's just you're playing one note unless you're Lemmy from Motorhead and then you're playing too. He kind of plays power chords or hardly Flanagan. He plays some power chords on the, on the bass, but most people it's a one note. That's why a brother like Nate, who has no musical experience or Jocko when I was in high school, no musical experience. Guess what you're going to be bass slash singer. And so yeah, cause they can literally go, Hey, put your finger here. Bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, you just do that over and over again. You're a bass player. Okay. And I caught some, I got into trouble. Probably the most controversial thing I've ever said on Twitter was I said, if you can play guitar, you can play bass. It doesn't go backwards, but if you can play guitar, you can definitely play bass. But then there's people like they attacked me because, because being able to play bass isn't being able to necessarily play bass. You know, you're not going to be a less clay or flee or Harley Flanagan or Lemmy. Like you're not going to be there. Cliff Burton, you're not going to be there, but you could make the noise and you could get, you could be a bass player. Yes. If you can play guitar. That's all I was saying. I'm not trying to take anything away from my people. I'm not taking, taking anything away from Nate. Maybe you were a really good bass. It was not a good basis. No, no, that's why I play Blink 1A2 in offspring. Yeah, there you go. You could just make it happen. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So can, can you, can you like tell me what's a, what's a cool power chord that I can bring back home and kind of rip on? Well, it's literally on a bass. It's one note. That's it. That's it. It's like EADG. EADG. Perfect. Well, that's a chord progression. Yeah, but that's a power chord, right? No, a power chord is one. It's just one of them. Like E, like, e is a power chord. Yeah. As a matter of fact, if you pick up a bass guitar right now and the big fat string on top and you just go, boom, power chord, that's an E all day. All day. We're not talking like sharps and flats, right? So like, like this is like, it's, it's a plain old note, like in the chord, in the chord scale progression, without any sharps and flats on it, like there's no, there's no nuance to it. It's just like, it's just, it's power. It's power. Okay. Okay. So you said EADG. Yeah. What's that chord progression? Okay. So are there different combos of chord progressions? Oh, yeah. That's called the song, bro. Yeah, but okay, I guess. But yeah, and then there's like happy ones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like a D is kind of like a happy sound. Yeah. Noise. So you know, you're talking, okay. And like a E. What's EADG? Is that happy? Is that sad or that mad? Or is there a mad one? That's kind of a nice one. Yeah. That's kind of, yeah. That's, that's Blink-182. You feel like Blink-182. You're there. Yeah. I like Blink-182. Okay. All right. Good day. This is a good start. You know, you get back on that ukulele or what? Maybe. Okay. I got into digital. That's all. Okay. Got it. And the stuff kind of starts to apply the roots. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. There you go. All right. I'm going to look into it. Thanks for that. Good to meet you. Any other, any other questions? That's it. No, that's it. Right on. Any, any closing thoughts, bro? I just stoked you guys had me out and talk a little bit about where we're trying to go with, with like the future army training. I think it's just, uh, like maybe two takeaways for the third listing. Honest number one is like mistakes are okay. Right. Like I, I'm evidence of like, you know, you can make enough mistakes at a certain point and you're actually bludgeoning your way through and realize like, oh, I, you know, I, I can reform and change and recover and, and, um, really comes down to mentorship, um, you know, having somebody who sees you invest in you and will end to say like, okay, let's brush this stuff off and, you know, turn the lump of coal into a diamond. Um, and then, you know, that, you know, from that moving into like, what do I think the army needs? What do I think the military society needs right now? More people invest in other people. Right. Like all the hardware in the world, you know, ships, unmanned aerial systems, drones, data analytics, you know, from companies like Palantir, all good stuff. Like we need all of it. Rebuild the arsenal, American democracy. Absolutely. Um, we also need to build like the, the complexity of the American leadership mind, right? Like, and that doesn't come overnight. It comes through mistakes. It comes to reps. It comes to sets. It comes to vulnerability. All the stuff you talk about on this show, um, you know, like it's, it's not hype. It's, it's the real thing. So leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. And there's no doubt about it. So awesome, man. Well, thanks for joining us. So thanks for sharing these experiences. I know it was like, what'd you say? You wanted to be a very brutally transparent. So I appreciate you doing that. So many people, hopefully they'll, they'll keep that thought in their mind. You know, the lessons that you learned and that you shared with us today is awesome. So thanks for those. Thanks for your service. Uh, and salute to the National Guard, um, with a solemn gratitude to the brave soldiers, the 1172, the Vermont National Guard. Uh, those guys were just, they fought so vaguely in Ramadi. And like I said, they, they kept our guys alive with the turnover that we were on the ground with them for like around a month, but the turnover they gave us, which is great. So we'll never forget those guys. And thanks to the National Guard and thanks Nate for coming out, man. Appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you. And with that, Nathan Fry has left the building. He's got to go back to his job as battalion commander, getting after it. Also sounds like he's doing that skee mo up in Vermont. That's pretty awesome. I'm telling you, if you watch this stuff, I'm going to go watch it on the Olympics. It is hardcore endurance activities, hardcore. These guys are running up hills on skis with a pack on. It's how far is the hill? The whole, the whole, yeah. The whole, thousands of feet of vertical climb. So it's cool. You know, it's, it's especially if you've climbed hills, like when you're in the military and you have to walk up hills, you, you, you hump or up, up hills. It totally changes you the way that you visual, visually understand a hill. Like even when I'm driving through the mountains, I'm not kidding. Every mountain that I look at, I go, looks like one looks rough. That's a rough one right there. Hate to, like that's going to take it out of you. Hate to walk up that thing. That's a tough one. Get that thing done. I'm not kidding. When I drive through the Sierra mountains, every single mountain that I see, I look, I assess it and I go, damn, cause going uphill is really hard. So a skimo is going uphill on skis and you get to come down, have a little bit of fun. But it's no joke. I kind of want to get into it. So living down here, it's a little bit tricky. And like I said, I, I'll go out and do like just the back country where you're kind of just walking, maybe an elevated walk, like a little bit, a little bit of speed, but like as far as, Hey, I'm going to race. I'm not there yet. No, I'm not there yet. That will require a lot of training. Yep. A lot of training and training is what we're doing. And listen, when you're training, you're going to need fuel. We strongly recommend, we strongly recommend Jocko fuel. All kinds of things that you need, whether you need protein, whether you need hydration, whether you need energy, whether you need joint supplementation, whether you need greens, whatever you need. We got you. We even have a new pro series out that is just next level. The kind where, look, it's more expensive because it's a lot more expensive for us to produce it, but like the protein has beef protein isolate, like it's very high end as high end as we could possibly make it. There's a, there's something called muscle drive, which again, these are the kind of things where that, that one is kind of made very not, we didn't make it specifically for this, but listen, we got people cut and wait, right? In our game, whether it's wrestling, jujitsu, fighting and being able to preserve your muscle when you're on a calorie deficit is something that's very important. But also just what about the times of the day where you don't, you don't have the ability to eat for whatever reason. This stuff is awesome. So that's muscle driving. And then we got, we made a pre-workout that is like kind of psychotic, you know, it's like a full pre-workout, the full pre-workout, you know, for someone that needs a full pre-workout to go crazy and psychotic. So we got the anyways, check that out. That's the pro series at Jocko Fuel. And then we've got like the standard issue, which by the way, the standard issue is way above the standard, but that's what we got going on. If you need anything, check out JockoFuel.com or go to whatever store you go to, whether you go to Walmart, H-E-B, Wegmans, no matter where you go, Myers, we're just everywhere. Hi, V, we got so many retail places now. You can generally find it where you go. JockoFuel, get it there or JockoFuel.com. Also, we're training and we're from New England, like the 10th mountain or like the 1172 or the 3172. Yeah, these are New England people. And guess what else we do in New England? We make clothing. OriginUSA.com. Not just New England, by the way, we got factories down in North Carolina as well. But these are, these are, this is clothing that's made 100% America. 100% American made clothing. Jeans, boots, hoodies, you and I are about to go train, apparently. Do you have a rash guard with you? Yes. I do too. And guess what? My rash guard is 100% made in America. So is mine. Yeah, that's what I like to hear. So we want to train. We want to train in American made goods. We want to work. We want to work in American made goods. We want to relax. We want to relax and 100% American made goods made from American materials. Check it out. OriginUSA.com gets some. It's true. Also, JockoStore.com. We're representing. We're on the path, but as far as the clothing that we wear, we want to exude our identity into the world, which is discipline. Anyway, discipline equals freedom. I'm sure it's hats. Got some hoodies on there. Got some rash guards. New rash guard coming out, by the way. Deathcore to the core. Oh, this is freedom. You are wearing a SOG support shirt. Yes. Expand on that for me. So that is a black on black shirt, which I must say is about as legit as it is. It is. I agree with you. Yes. So OK, yeah, SOG support. So there's two little parts to this whole thing. So SOG support. I can't be just busting out a SOG shirt. You know, you know this about me. I was not in SOG. You know what I'm saying? Nor was I. Yeah. Yeah. Therefore, I will not wear SOG material as if I was in SOG. Right. I look, look, I was in the SEAL teams. Yeah. I had a guy one time ask me on Twitter like, hey, you know, I wasn't in the SEAL teams, but I, you know, really respect what you guys do. Is it OK to wear a trident? Yeah. And I responded, I was in the SEAL teams for 20 years and I don't wear a trident out in public. So. Yeah, that's like, you know, stolen valor activity, right? It's what I feel. And so the SOG, like we want to spread the message of SOG. Oh, yeah. That's why we support the SOG cast with tilt, John Stryker Meyer. And he's had freaking unbelievable interviews with so many people. So many SOG guys, the SOG air guys. I mean, he just it's capturing one of the most profound. Eras of heroism in the history of the United States of America. That's what SOG is. Now, am I going to put on the SOG symbol and just walk around in the clear? Hell, no, not doing it. I kind of wanted to. You did want to. Yeah, I had to veto it. Yeah. Well, I had to I had to make an addendum. Yes. And the addendum was support, right? And this is something like there's various. Organizations in America, sir, where if you were to wear their symbol on its own, you would have it removed. You're not allowed to wear it. But if you if you have their symbol and you clarify that you are just support, you're good. Good. It's all good. We get it. You support it. So we have the SOG support shirt. Yeah. So it's stolen valor. We weren't in SOG, but we damn sure support SOG. Oh, yeah. And we want to represent, you know, the whole thing. Plus we love tilt. Let's face it. Yeah. You know, so yes, who else? Dick Thompson, the Frenchman. We go down the list. They'll go down the list. Every one of these guys. Yeah. So the whole deal. So where do we get the SOG support? Cool. The SOG legacy.com. SOG legacy.com. Dot com. You can get just a few of them. But yes, the black on black, very symbolic because this is a secret war. Yeah. It seems like ops, bro. Oh, gee. Yeah. These same saying. So yeah, that one. That one came out good. We have a regular one though for guys representing in the clear, which is cool. You know, of course, all day. And then there's like a basic, we might call a standard issue on. It's pretty cool. But oh, yeah, in the clear. Yeah. You like that phrase. Yes. I forget when I said that for the first time, you were like, OK, you last right on. It was actually one of my one of my platoon chiefs when I was a platoon commander. And he was the first person that really used that well. So good. You know, it was like just, you know, I forget what was happening, but like the commanding officer was there or something. And he comes up to you, you go, yeah, one of the guys just in the clear to the commanding officer, just in the clear. I'm like, OK, that's the best. I say it at home with my kids. And they, you know, they don't pick up on what it means. So now it's just going to be part of their vocabulary. Very, very, you know where it comes from, actually. In the clear. I'll tell you. So when you're on the talking on the radio, your radio, the military radio goes through an encryption device and the encryption device changes your voice into gobbledygook. And then when it gets received on the other side, it gets unencrypted in you here in English. But sometimes there's something wrong with the crypto device. OK, so it's just coming through. And so you got to go, hey, pass in the clear, which is it's kind of a risky thing because you're giving away some piece of information. Everybody can get it in the clear. So that's where in the clear comes from. But the way it lands and kind of normal interaction, it lands very well. So that's good. Good stuff. So yeah, yeah, solegacy.com. That's where you can get the SOG representation, shirt, support, sog support. Call them. But Jock of the story, that's discipline equal freedom. That's good. You know, we saw the Super Bowl. Oh, yeah. You know, head coach, you know, sort of kind of shouting it out. It seems same. Straight up. Yeah. Yeah, good. Good. Player got injured in practice. Good. Very useful. Yeah. Very good mindset. Good attitude. So yeah, you can represent that as well. There's get after it. We have a new get after it shirt, by the way. OK. It's there's a little history behind that. Is that the tape one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. You know why, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you have to go to brand new brand new. The also to the shirt locker underway subscription scenario, new design every every month. Some new designs on that one just came out pretty solid. This one, actually, I'm going to tell you what it is. Tell me what you think. So you know how like, you know, a ransom note, the traditional, the one you cut out from a newspaper, a magazine, and stuff like that. But it's called like a ransom note. It's like that. Yeah. So what does it say? Disciplining for freedom. Just to let you know. It seems to me. Doesn't matter who sent it. Factual. Yeah, there you go. Anyway, it's all on jocostore.com. So check that out. Also, we got a bunch of books we got. Put your legs on by Rob Jones. We got Dave Burke, Need to Lead. We got a bunch of books that I've written. We got Things My Brother Used to Say by Ryan Mannion. So check out the books where we buy books. Also, Ashla on front, we have a leadership consultancy. You heard me talking about today. It's what we do. Extremeownership.com, some of the skills that I talked about of leadership. You can improve them online. Training, asking questions, going through courses. You can continually put this stuff into your brain and you will pick up on it over time. That's what we're doing. Also, if you have or you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's Mom, Mom, Elise. You got a charity organization. It's absolutely incredible. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org. Also, check out heroesandhorses.org. And then finally, Jimmy May's organization beyondthebrotherhood.org. If you want to check out Nathan Fry, you can go to his LinkedIn. It's at Nathan Fry with the National Guard. And then also, spiretg.com. And finally, he also, the Vermont National Guard. The one notes the, it's the 3172 Mountain. You can find their Instagram as well. And follow that. And thanks once again to Nathan Fry for joining us. Man, we got some good lessons to learn from him, you know? And as usual, you don't get the great lesson learned when you do the perfect thing. You do it, you get the great lesson learned when you make a mistake and you learn from it. And he definitely shared a lot of those with us today. So appreciate that a lot. And thanks again to the soldiers of the Vermont National Guard and the National Guard around the whole country. We appreciate everything that you have done and that you continue to do for America. Also thanks to our entire military, staged around the globe right now to protect freedom and our way of life. We thank you all for your service. Also thanks to our police law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service here on the home front and to everyone else out there. There's a creed of the 170 second. It's known as the mountain creed and it breaks a bunch of stuff down, but I'm just gonna give one little section of it. It says, quote, always will I keep my equipment and myself ready for whatever tasks I may be given. The sheer nature of my unit's mission requires that I maintain my equipment and master its capabilities and employment. My brother, soldiers and countrymen count on my ability to shoot better, climb higher, ski farther and fight with more cunning and aggression than any enemy I may face. End quote. So whatever task you may be given, be ready. And that means you have to get up every day and get after it. That's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out. Thank you.