1117: Trump Threatens to Steal the Midterms

Today's presenting sponsor is Simplisafe Home Security. No one wants to imagine their home getting broken into, but the scary statistic is that every 26 seconds in the US a family experiences a break in. Scary, yes, but that's why SimpliSafe has worked to make home security accessible to more American families. John Lovett is a big fan of his SimpliSafe. He set it up for himself all by himself. Yep, we gave him a Nobel Prize over it because, you know, it's really tricky and he loves it because it's very easy to use. You use it from your phone and keeps you safe. Traditional security systems only take action after someone's already broken in that's too late. SimpliSafe's Active Guard Outdoor Protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. AI powered cameras backed by live professional monitoring agents monitor your property and detect suspicious activity. Someone's lurking around or acting suspiciously. Those agents see and talk to them in real time, activate spotlights and even contact the police, all before they have the chance to get inside your home. No long term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably at around a dollar a day 60 day satisfaction guarantee owe your money back Name Best Home security systems by U.S. news World Report five years in a row ranked number one in customer service among home security providers by both Newsweek and USA Today. And right now our listeners can get 50% off their new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring in their first month free@simplisafe.com crooked that's simplisafe.com crooked there's no safe like SimpliSafe.

0:00

I didn't even realize I was wasting $415 a month until I downloaded Rocket Money. I thought I had my finances under control until the app laid out all my spending and categorized it for me. Takeout, shopping and unused subscriptions were quietly draining my account and as a result, my savings took a back seat. But Rocket Money doesn't just tell you what you're wasting money on, it takes action to save you money. First, the app looks at your income and monthly expenses and calculates how much you can safely spend each day to stay on your budget. Rocket Money also finds and cancels unwanted subscriptions for you and even negotiates better rates on your bills so you have more money in your pocket. On average, Rocket Money members can save up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Users love the app with over 186,000 five star ratings. It's time to simplify your finances and take control of your Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Cancel to get started. That's RocketMoney.com Cancel RocketMoney.com Cancel.

1:18

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

2:39

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

2:41

On today's show, Trump already seems deadly serious about his intention to interfere with the midterm election. So we're gonna talk about why the rest of us should take the threat just as seriously. We've also got more on Minnesota and immigration, where Trump has chosen choice words about Alex Preddy and Renee Good. And a Trump DOJ prosecutor goes viral for telling a judge that her job sucks and the system is broken. We'll also talk about Trump and J.D. vance berating CNN's Kaitlan Collins for not smiling while she asks a question about underage rape victims. And the we'll also get into the massive layoffs that may mean the end of the Washington Post, at least as we know it. Then Maine governor and Senate candidate Janet Mills talks to Dan about her race against Graham Platner, election security, getting ICE out of Maine and whether Democrats have an age problem. Lots of news to talk about. One reason you should consider becoming a subscriber. Every week on our subscriber only pods and our growing number of substack newsletters, we go deeper on all the big stories and cover the stories we didn't get a chance to here on Pod Save America. We just added a new biweekly subscriber only episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America Only Friends which will go alongside our subscriber only show called Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer who I hear you have a new episode out of that too.

2:42

We do. An episode just came out this week where we looked at in great detail how what's happening in Minnesota has affected Trump's approval ratings on immigration and public's perception of ICE and what that might mean for Democrats and in this upcoming battle over ICE funding in Congress and in the midterms.

4:05

So excellent subscriber only show. Much like Pod Save America Only Friends. We also have a new weekly Pod Save America newsletter called Open Tabs which is outstanding and you know as a subscriber you get ad free episodes of all your favorite Crooked pods and you get to feel good about supporting independent, pro democracy media that is not owned by by Jeff Bezos. So it would mean a lot to all of us here at Crooked if you considered subscribing@crooked.com friends. Let's start with this week's Five Alarm Fire. Dan. In the clearest sign yet, the Trump and his goons are worried that they're gonna lose the midterms. They are already openly plotting to steal the election. We talked last week about Trump sending the FBI and Tulsi Gabbard to raid the Fulton county elections office and take all the ballots from 2020. Earlier this week, Steve Bannon decided to up the ante on the crazy by saying this.

4:23

We're gonna have ICE surround the polls come November.

5:19

We're not gonna sit here and allow you to steal the country again. And you can, you can whine and cry and throw your toys out of.

5:23

The pram all you want, but we.

5:29

Will never again allow an election to be stolen.

5:32

Pretty crazy, right? But, you know, per usual, the insanity traveled from the swamps of MAGA media right to the Oval Office. And we heard this from Trump during his interview with Tom Yamas of NBC News.

5:35

You've recently suggested nationalizing elections. What do you mean by that?

5:49

When. And I didn't say national. I said there are some areas in our country that are extremely corrupt. They have very corrupt elections. Take a look at Detroit, take a look at Philadelphia, take a look at Atlanta. There are some areas that are unbelievably corrupt. I could give you plenty of more, too. If they don't want voter id, that means they want to cheat. We can't allow cheating in elections. Now, if we need to put in federal controls as opposed to state controls, if they can't do it honestly and it can't be done properly and timely, then something else has to happen.

5:54

Will you trust the results of the midterms if Republicans lose control of Congress?

6:27

I will. If the elections are honest. Look, I want the last one that wants to complain.

6:31

Speaking of counties, what is happening in Congress?

6:36

I'm not doing anything. But the FBI went in.

6:38

Why is Tulsi Gabbard There's.

6:41

I don't know. But, you know, a lot of the cheating comes from. It's international cheating.

6:43

We know that foreign governments try to influence a lot of things in this country.

6:49

Well, of course she's foreign government. But there should be nothing wrong with the fact that they went in, got ballots from a while ago, and they're going to look at it, and now they're going to find out the true winner of that state.

6:52

Nothing wrong with that. At least. At least we know that the Republican with the power to decide contested election results that could determine control of the House would never go along with Trump's scheme. Right. We had three House Republican candidates who.

7:05

Were ahead on election day in the last election cycle. And every time a new tranche of ballots came in, they just magically whittled away until their leads were lost. It just. It looks on its face to be fraudulent. Can I prove that?

7:20

No.

7:33

Now, the red states have done a lot of good work in that. In that front, but it's the blue.

7:34

States that I'm frankly concerned about. Yeah, I'm sure you are. So, Dan, because we are a real news organization. Crooked Media's own Matt Berg asked the White House specifically what Trump meant when he called for nationalizing our elections. In that NBC News interview and previous interviews, here's what the White House told us. Quote, president Trump cares deeply about the safety and security of our elections. That's why he's urged Congress to pass the SAVE act and other legislative proposals that would establish a uniform standard of photo ID for voting, prohibit no excuse mail in voting, and end the practice of ballot harvesting. You feel better now?

7:37

I don't, John. I don't feel better. That is an absurd answer that bears no connection to what Trump actually said. Like, do we. When Trump was very explicit, he talks in there about the federal. The states being agents of the federal governments, us, the federal government taking over in certain places. He certainly was not referring to the passage of a national voter ID law that has no chance of passing. Like, he's being very explicit. And I have a question for you, because I think generally when there is sort of alarmist discussion from Trump or maybe it like, bubbles up through liberal media or online, of us, you're the least likely one to be alarmed. Typically, yeah. Like, you dig in deep to the details. You try to. You come back and say, actually, it's not as bad as you think it is. Yet you seem quite concerned about this, or more concerned than I am. And I will go to what the parts that do concern me. But where's your head on this?

8:15

Yeah. So having read all this and watched all this last night, I have now become quite concerned. And it's specific concerns. Right. This idea that they're gonna put in place federal controls. Like that doesn't mean anything. The federal government cannot put in place federal controls. It is against the law. The federal government has no role in elections. That's. The states run the elections. We know that. That isn't the Constitution. It is the law. So him's talking about putting in federal controls. Whatever else. But what Bannon was saying, the ICE agents by the polls, which. Caroline Levitt was asked about it today at the White House briefing. And she said, no, no, I don't think so. She's like, well, I can't. I can't promise you there's not gonna be any agents anywhere near any polls, that's for sure. So I worry about that. I worry about the intimidation, especially because of everything we've seen in Minnesota and elsewhere over the last year. I think what I'm most worried about is Trump and all of his goons reviving the let's seize the election machines, let's seize the ballots. Because now that they've gotten a taste for it in Fulton county, and if you remember, in 2020, they had an executive order drafted that supposedly would have given Trump the authority to send in the military, the National Guard, federal agents, whoever, and seize the voting machines. And that is the one that really worries me, because I think a lot of the stuff you can litigate in court, and I think even though the Supreme Court is the Supreme Court on issues where sort of the sanctity of our elections, and I'm not talking about, like, you know, Voting Rights act, voter suppress, they're horrible on all that. They're horrible on all that. But when I'm talking about like, like throwing out ballots, you know, the craziest election stuff that Trump has tried to do, the Supreme Court has been good on it. Okay. But when you talk about the federal government going into just seizing an election, like, it doesn't matter what the court rules at that point. They have the ballots. That's it. That's like the end.

9:09

I mean, it's an interesting. So I am, I'm concerned about this. I've been concerned for a long time about the National Guard originally, and now ICE being at polling places. And even just Bannon and the right wing media saying ICE is gonna be at polling places will dissuade people who are American citizens who can vote but are of color and worried about getting picked up and detained by ICE from going out to the polls. And that's gonna be particularly prevalent in states that don't have readily available early voting or mail in voting.

11:14

And by the way, another way that this could work. So Trump and the White House decide not to be so obvious as to say we're going to deploy a bunch of ICE agents to the polls on election Day.

11:46

Yeah, they just put them in the cities.

11:55

Yeah, they say, okay, the next operation, next on our list after Minneapolis is all the cities where there are close races in all the states where there are close races in the Senate and the House and those operations are happening, I don't know, maybe three weeks before Election Day, but they are. And so just enough time so that people like they are in Minneapolis right now. So people who are worried that they're gonna get picked up by ICE are hiding in their homes and don't wanna go for even groceries, let alone to go vote.

11:56

The test of this will be Texas.

12:25

Right.

12:27

Where there's been a huge swing in the Latino vote based on the special election this past weekend and some polling we've seen. And ISIS stayed out of Texas in this sort of way because Trump really just deploys them in blue states to try to spark a reaction of some kind. But if all of a sudden they start showing up in Houston or Dallas or San Antonio at a time in which control of the Senate may come down to a race between Jasmine Crockett or James Salarico and a Republican, that would be the real test there. I mean, there are some other things I'm worried about here. One, just using all of this to suggest you need federal monitors at elections, that you're going to put people there to make sure that nothing is happening. This is pre voting rights era voter intimidation is what you see here. And then the big one, and I think the absolute biggest one is whether is creating this climate of fraud and corruption that allows Mike Johnson, the pretext to not seat Democrats in a, in closely contested races, even though they have.

12:27

That's the other big one. Yeah.

13:38

Even though they've been certified by the recount, the hand recount, the process in those states to claim that there was enough there not to seat them to hold on to the majority if this comes down. Like, I don't think he can't pull that off if we gain 30 seats and we have these. But if this comes down to essentially the majority of the Republicans had after 2022, where you're down to two seats, could you see that happening? That seems very, very possible. And remember, Mike Johnson is someone who was intimately involved in the Stop the Steal effort and pushing the big lie in 2020. So this is not Mitch McConnell or maybe even a Paul Ryan who's just along for the ride. This is a true believer in those conspiracy theories.

13:39

Yeah. And so just to give everyone an example of how this might work, so Georgia, say control of the Senate, it's a really close race in Georgia. That probably won't be the state that it comes down to because Jon Ossoff's doing quite well right now. But anyway, let's imagine that it's really close in Georgia and He's already made this big deal of Fulton county and the FBI raided them and he comes back and says 2020 was rigged and we're gonna have extra DOJ monitors around Fulton county, which they can do, and it's really close. And now Trump says, oh, there's fraud and we're not gonna certify it. Now the Fulton County Board of Elections is run by is majority Republican, specifically like election denying Republicans and they won't certify. Now the court could make them certify, but maybe before that happens and it's contested, you know, Trump sends in federal agents to grab the voting machines. And now control of the Senate hinges on Georgia. The same thing could happen in the House. I guess it's more, it's probably more likely that it's a Mike Johnson House thing. Right.

14:18

Because what happens, it's harder to seat in the House. Yeah.

15:21

But what happens is in a contested election where there is no certification of the final result yet and January 3rd rolls around, you're right that if the, if it's obvious that Democrats are going to control the House, at that point the House automatically just switches over to the Democrats and then they figure out who. They figure out the contested House race under a Democratic majority. But if that contested House race or several contested House race is what the control of the House hinges on, then Mike Johnson and the Repub, the current Republican House, they're still there on January 3rd until they figure it out. And the House, according to the Constitution gets to be ultimate arbiter of seating their own members and the results of an election. So that's when you'd really worry.

15:25

If I remember correctly, there are some limits in some previous court cases on this, but there is real room for monkey business that could delay a Democratic majority or prevent one if it's close enough.

16:10

Yes.

16:20

Cuz they went down this road with Adam Clayton Powell, I think, and a couple other times over the course of American history. But.

16:21

But sometimes control of the House has hinged on some of these close, contested, uncertified elections. And the vote has gone to the House and someone who has won, or at least appeared to have won via the vote count isn't the one who gets seated. It's happened before.

16:25

Yeah, this is one of those things where just the. Well, people are listening to this and they're panicking and say, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? I mean, not to steal something from Trump here, but it has to be too big to rig. You just have to win enough that you have to take the power out of their hands. Cuz there's really not a lot we can do right now other than raising awareness of this possibility to prevent Republicans from doing very, very bad things. We learned that in 2020 when the election was very close. And so therefore just, we gotta go out and win. We gotta go out and win enough seats that it's too big to rig.

16:41

Here's another. That's correct for all of us, I believe. I think there is a role for Democratic governors, state and local officials, and I don't know when it is, but at some point I'm just throwing it out there. But right now, you hear them say what Trump wants to do would be unconstitutional, or Newsom's out there being like, I don't think I'm worried that we're not gonna have a free and fair election, right? So there's a lot of either Democrats expressing concern about what Trump might do, Democratic officials, or Democrats saying, like, this is authoritarianism, this would be bad. I would like Democratic governors to go out there and say, like, it is illegal and unconstitutional for the federal government to deploy any kind of federal agents or troops around polling places. It is illegal and unconstitutional for the federal government to seize voting machines or to have the military seize voting machines. And I think that every one of them should go out there. Every Democrat should go out there and say, if they see federal agents anywhere near a polling place intimidating voters, they will be immediately ordered to leave. If they see them try to seize voting machines, they will be immediately ordered to leave. And if they do not leave, they will be arrested and they will have. I mean, we've heard about this in Minnesota, right? Like in Jacob Fry, the mayor there was like, oh, could we technically have local police arrest ICE agents? Yes, legally, maybe, but obviously that gets really dicey to actually have that conflict. But if you get to the point where federal agents are intimidating people at polls or trying to seize fucking voting machines, which we know is flatly unconstitutional, I think that you let Trump know early, you know, you don't do the, like, look what fucking all the Europeans finally did around Greenland, right? Instead of just like, letting Trump keep doing this, they were like, no, it's not for sale, and we're gonna put troops in Greenland to make sure you don't do it. And he fucking backed down. Like. And maybe, maybe now is not the time. And what, what month is it? February. But, like, I think that sometime before the election, they have to. There needs to be a shot across the bow there that, like, you send Federal agents in. They are. No, they are not going to be welcome.

17:11

I asked Janet Mills about what they were doing in, in Maine to secure elections and get. People can stay on and listen to the answer. But what is clear is that Democratic government are beginning to think about this. And probably, and I didn't ask this, but I imagine there are conversations happening amongst Democratic governors about what they can do together. Because there are some simple things like make clear the points you're making. Just make it clear that the. I mean, this is an insane thing to say in the United States of America, but that state troopers will be guarding the counting centers or the voting machines. A message has to be sent early that this is not going to be tolerated and we're not going along with this. I think that's right.

19:22

And it is as much, I think, because what Democrats have done in the past, what we love to do is it's like we got all our lawyers in line and it's a big legal strategy and that's very important. But it's just as much of a communications strategy at that point as it is a legal strategy. I feel good about our legal strategy. We got some great lawyers in the Democratic Party, but on election night, if the count is close, you know that Trump's gonna be out there and every Republican is gonna be out there saying like, oh, these mail in ballots, they're late. All the shit they did in 2020, all the shit they do all the time now. And Democrats just gotta be out there right away being like, absolutely not. Do not come near us. Do not come near our. You know, we have the state troopers there. We don't wanna see you here. You're not welcome. Like, they just gotta show a little fight on this and not be like crying authoritarianism. Actually tell them what you're gonna do and why they're not allowed to actually fucking violate the Constitution, especially when it comes to our elections. So that's just a thought that I've been having. Foreign.

20:03

Save America is brought to you by Quint. A well built wardrobe is about pieces that work together and hold up over time. That's what Quint does best. Premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples that feel easy to wear and easy to rely on even as the weather shifts. Quince has everyday essentials that I love with quality that lasts. They have organic cotton sweaters, Polos for every occasion, lighter jackets that keep you warm in the changing seasons. The list goes on and on. Quint works directly with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing. Everything is built to hold up to daily wear and still look good season after season. Plus, they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. I told you guys before, I have a ton of stuff from quints. I got workout shirts, I have basics, I have T shirts. I also gave two really nice of the Quint's Mongolian cashmere sweaters to family members for Christmas. They love them, they're well received, they look great, they fit perfectly and frankly, they were affordable. Refresh your wardrobe with quint. Go to quint.com Kurked for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com Crooked free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Crooked Pod Save America is brought.

21:10

To you by Mint Mobile. Every group has someone who insists on doing things the hard way. That one friend still paying for a subscription they forgot they had. That one who refuses to update their phone because it still works. That one who's still overpaying for wireless. Be a good friend. Tell your friends about Mint Mobile. Stop paying way too much for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint exists purely to fix that Same coverage, same speed, just without the inflated price tag. The premium wireless you expect unlimited talk, text and data, but at a fraction of what others charge. And for a limited time, get 50% off 3, 6 or 12 month plans of unlimited premium wireless. Bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in minutes and start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. With a seven day money back guarantee and customer satisfaction ratings in the mid-90s, Mint makes it easy to try it and see why people don't go back. Our friend Nina. She's always telling all of her friends about the money she saved since switching to Mint Mobile. She wants to shut up about it just constantly. Every time we see her, we see her on a zoom and she's we're like hey, how's politics going? And she's like mint Mobile. Mint Mobile. And she talks about how the wireless service and the data speeds are just as good as her old provider. She doesn't even remember what her old provider is at this point. She moved along. She dumped that loser. Ready to stop paying more than you have to? New customers can make the switch today and for a limited time get unlimited premium wireless for just $15 a month. Switch now@mint mobile.com crooked that's mintmobile.com crooked upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan required $15 a month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only over 50 gigabytes may slow and network is busy Capable device required Availability, speed and coverage varies. Additional terms apply. See mintmobile.com now that it's been a week or so since the the Fulton county raid, do you have a better understanding of what, what specifically Trump is trying to do there aside from just relitigating 2020? And obviously, you know, I think we can guess that he wants to use the made up fraud that he's going to come out with from 2020 as a pretext to screw with 2026. But like how?

22:21

Like what a. Yeah, I don't think there's a master plan here. I think this is the product of having a deluded conspiracy theorist in the Oval Office with the capacity to send federal agents down the rabbit holes you'd like to explore.

24:23

Yeah.

24:38

So that's why this happened. He is obsessed with this. He can't get over it. Even though he's back in the White House. He's wanted to do this for a long time. Now he's got no one who's going to stop him. He has a Director of National Intelligence who was doing yoga on the beach during the last major military operation and is trying to win back favor. So she is spearheading this process. It's just worth noting that the Director of National Intelligence is spearheading an effort to investigate election fraud. Fake effort to investigate fake election fraud from five years ago, six years ago. It's totally ridiculous. But I do think this is a pretext and a pretext along the ways we talked about. So there is what the federal government can do and then what can you do if you create this? Let's say they find they make something up, they doctor something. They find one ballot where the signature didn't match even though they were all matched by hand because of how this went. And they use this to suggest fraud. So then that can lead to a couple things that can lead not just pretext for federal government action, it can lead to getting Republican election officials to change how votes are received or counted or certified, to change procedures or laws to limit mail in voting, early voting, like making the signature match that much harder, throwing more ballots out, purging the rolls again, ways to do that. Now they are limited in what they can do because a lot of the places, especially a lot of places where the House races will be decided are in states run by Democrats. California, New York, a lot of states in the Midwest, including Pennsylvania and then Pennsylvania. But, you know, the Senate. The path to the Senate runs through red states.

24:40

Yeah, I was gonna say Georgia. The states with Republican governors that are gonna matter in 2026, both in the Senate and in the House to an extent as well. Iowa, Ohio, Texas, Georgia, Florida, Alaska.

26:18

Yep.

26:31

And those are the ones. And, you know, like Maine, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Michigan, Minnesota, all Democratic governors. There's some House seats in Arizona. Democratic governor, Pennsylvania, Democratic governor. But, yeah, those are the. Those are. That's the concern there.

26:32

And that's where they can really fuck with things. And do they. Do they need this fake 2020 ballot thing to do that? Absolutely not. But it would make Trump happy if they found it.

26:43

And when he talked the Fulton county thing, it's not necessarily. If they find something and make a big deal of it, it's the federal government that can do something. But if the Fulton County Elections Board is now majority maga, then they can just get them to, you know, to put in place restrictions, controls, whatever it may be, which they will.

26:53

Yeah. And so people understand, Fulton county is where Atlanta is. This is where the overwhelming majority of Democratic votes are. And so if you were able to reduce turnout in Atlanta through a series of things that you can do, they can be explicit, like changing voting procedures. It can be. But also as implicit and devious as reducing the number of machines in certain precincts so that the lines are too long for people to vote, et cetera, then that would really hurt Jon Ossoff's chances to win. If he can't count on a huge chunk, the same chunk of votes that he's gotten, Warnock's gotten, and Joe Biden got in 2020 out of Fulton County.

27:13

I've been wondering about the Tulsi angle as well. Why is the director and he's talking about foreign governments in that interview. Foreign governments. There's some cheating and interference. I hadn't realized, because when I was going down the rabbit hole on the executive order to seize the voting machines from 2020, I realized that one of the orders that he was going to use as justification, or thought about using as justification to seize the machines is about foreign election interference. And it was basically saying if there's evidence of foreign interference, then a. It authorizes him to, you know, levy economic sanctions on the country, but also to somehow seize the voting machines, to look at them for national security reasons, because they have been attacked somehow by Foreign governments. So I do think that's the Tulsi angle.

27:52

Yeah. Once again not a master plan here in the sense that most of right wing big lie stop the steel world is so fucked up in the head that they think Venezuela was involved in this. They thought Chavez was doing this from the grave at one point. There's a lot of speculation online that Maduro's gonna cut a plea agreement by copying to some sort of Venezuelan experience. We know that even though this is not foreign interference, but we know that Tulsi gabber was investigating some conspiracy in Puerto Rico connected to Venezuela. Like this is this, like we are so far through the looking glass of insanity with the things that is guiding this conversation that it all comes back to this international stuff. And they would love after, you know, Russia, Russia, Russia to have some to make this argument that no, it was actually Venezuela or Cuba or some other country that interfered with our elections that cost Trump, you know the office.

28:40

One other on this topic before we go, one other scoop that crooked media got Matt Berg again just crushing it. You know Nevada Secretary of State Cisco Aguiar from Nevada. So he talked to Matt and told him that Aguiar and basically all the secretaries of state got an email from the FBI organizing a call in a couple weeks with all the various agencies in the federal government to talk about election security. And Aguilar told Matt, I was just like this is the strangest thing in the world that the FBI is reaching out to us and trying to coordinate election security. It has never happened in the past. The casualness with which they did is just beyond crazy. And Matt got ahold of the email and it is just like a, it's hey every. Hey everyone. Hey every Secretary of State. This is the FBI reaching out. We're gonna do a call soon.

29:37

What like with in this Trump administration, especially in this poorly run FBI. Like that can be one of two things. It could be some fucking doofus organizing a grand conspiracy sealed election or it could be the one soon to be fired, well meaning bureaucrat in the department who wants to actually secure our elections. You just never know.

30:30

Or both they might be the person gets fired and then they're like wait, I have an idea now. Yeah, exactly. So you know, something to keep an eye on. But I think too big for everyone listening too big to rig unless you're a Democratic official then you know, make sure that you, you.

30:49

Let's start to start talking tough if you're.

31:04

Start talking. So you moved. Yeah. You have a, you have some state troopers, you got Some National Guard fucking use it. All right, let's talk about the.

31:06

Just think about that for a second.

31:13

That's, you know, it's going to be too late once we're an election to be like, how did the voting machines get stolen and the ballots are gone? Now what are we going to do?

31:15

Pod save blue America. Coming to you in 2027 after the civil War starts, you know.

31:23

All right, let's talk about the latest with Trump's invasion of Minnesota borders are. Tom Homan announced this week that 700 Department of Homeland Security officers will be leaving Minneapolis, though that leaves about 2,000 in place. And the way the White House is thinking about the mass deportation campaign doesn't seem to have changed very much at all. Trump and Tom Yamas of NBC talked about this a lot in the interview. Here's a sampling.

31:27

I learned that maybe we can use a little bit of a softer touch. But you still have to be tough. I'm not happy with the two incidents. It's not, you know, it's both of them, not one or the other. He was not an angel, and she was not an angel. You know, you look at some tapes from back, but still I'm not happy with what happened. Nobody could be happy. And ICE wasn't happy either. Two people. It's bad. I hate it. I hate even talking about it. Two people out of tens of thousands, okay. And you get bad publicity. Nobody talks about all of the murderers that were taken out of our country. They don't talk about.

31:53

But it was too American.

32:34

They don't talk about. We have the smallest trucks as an example. We've been very tough on the waters and soon, you know, pretty much overall. But if you look at. Look at the waters where we knock out boats.

32:35

Think of all the people. Think of all the Americans ICE agents haven't killed. Why aren't we getting publicity for that? You kill two Americans and suddenly everyone's up your ass just complaining about this and that. But think of how many boats we've blown up. Isn't that cool? Think of how many potentially innocent people we executed on the high seas.

32:50

I went through that same journey with Tom Yamas in real time, which was the waters.

33:13

The waters. Oh, we've been very water. Well, you don't know if he's going to talk about how he saved Los Angeles by turning on the water in Northern California so it could come down.

33:18

Or the shower heads.

33:26

Yeah, and the shower heads.

33:27

There's a lot of water.

33:28

You just. You. The toilet. So when flush, you just don't know. This is a man focused on water.

33:29

Been very tough on the waters. But you know, what he's trying to do there, of course, is the, the message. And you see this from Stephen Miller and J.D. vance and all the rest of them on Twitter. All they do is they're like, well, you know, we don't hear the Democrats showing any sympathy or remembering the people that undocumented immigrants have murdered. It's like, what, what the fuck does that. How, what does that have to do with anything? Yes, people who murder other people should be arrested and if eligible for deportation, deported, and if not, thrown in jail after a trial. That's America welcome.

33:33

Yeah. Like, it's totally unconnected to ICE agents shooting two American citizens in the street and then the administration lying about the incidents for the world to see.

34:08

You think that, you think Trump's answer there, that's the right messaging for a national TV audience that will be watching the full interview during the Super Bowl.

34:19

Yeah.

34:29

Are they going to air the full interview?

34:29

Well, everyone kept saying it's the Super Bowl. Is it like during the Super Bowl? Is it before?

34:31

It is. I mean, John, we only did this for eight years. It is. It airs in the pregame, long before the super bowl, usually before people even split parties start.

34:36

This is the one that you advised Joe Biden not to do.

34:44

I was just thinking that it had been two years since that debate. Two years since that. And I guess no one did one last year because, well, I guess Trump. Did Trump do one last year?

34:46

I don't remember. No idea.

34:55

Who knows? Time.

34:56

But this year, if you tune in before the super bowl begins, if you're.

34:57

Just milling about, you're filling out your super bowl squares, you are waiting in line to get access to the 6 foot sub or the wings. And did you just hear Trump say that two people who were murdered who the vast majority of Americans think were unjustly killed were no angels?

35:00

No angels. In fairness, they were no angels. I hate that they died. But think of all the people who weren't murdered.

35:16

In fairness to who? In fairness to who?

35:21

Yeah, right.

35:23

Yeah, just.

35:25

Oh, my God. Trump also said on Thursday that he's definitely not going to fire Kristi Noem. And Republicans in Congress don't seem very open to even modest reforms to rein in DHS and ICE. Democrats sent Republicans a list of 10 demands this week that include banning masking racial profiling, military style weapons, and raids near schools and daycare centers. They also want to require body cams and ensure better conditions and congressional oversight at detention facilities. They also want to ensure, you know, that you, that you go find a warrant before you arrest someone. Wild idea. Or before you, you know, break into someone's home. Usually they think that's a, it's a crazy extremist idea from the Democrats. But then again, lead negotiator for the Senate Republicans, Katie Britt called the letter, quote, political posturing and quote, a ridiculous Christmas list of demands for the press. A reminder that there's a two week clock on these negotiations before the Department of Homeland Security either shuts down or gets funded at current levels. What's the best play for Democrats here?

35:26

Democrats have to recognize that the American people are on their side here. And it's not just Democrats, it's not just independents. You have a quarter of Republicans who believe in a recent Data for Progress poll that ICE should not be funded without real guardrails on what ICE is doing. And so I do think they have to narrow that list. And so one recognize that you have the political high ground here. You have limited legislative leverage. Like we should be very clear, but you do have the political high ground. And I think that you should narrow that list to three, maybe four, very popular, easy to understand, very substantial guardrails on that list. I would include no masks, body cams. I know Kristi Noem said she was going to put in body cams, but let's have a law about it. And that law should contain, as Janet Mill said to me in our interview, like, requirements to make sure that footage is saved for transparency. Number three, independent, transparent investigations into the killings of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy. And number four is warrants. Warrants, A judicial warrant.

36:35

Warrants is at the very top of the list for me. Really, this is way more than masks.

37:39

Yeah. And then I guess the fifth thing, if I was gonna do a fifth thing, is to ensure that ICE and CBP have to operate with the same use of force and other standards as the rest of federal law enforcement, including the FBI. Like, those are very simple, very popular things that would make a difference. That can solve all of the problems with ice. Far from it. It's not going to abolish ICE or anything like that, but if you could get those or some of those, it would make a difference. And that is a position of strength to argue from.

37:44

Yeah, I think if you're, if you're going for something that every American understands, banning warrantless arrests, I think that'll get people going. Because, you know, John Thune today, he basically agreed with Katie Britt that, like, oh, These demands aren't serious. And he's like, well, if the Department of Homeland Security shuts down, then that means TSA will shut down and we could have some of those travel problems. And it's like, you know, if you wanna tell people your plane is delayed, your flight is canceled because Donald Trump refuses to require ICE agents to get a warrant before they arrest you or break into your home, I think you could probably win that battle.

38:14

I will be bringing this up to you in about a week when we're flying home from Australia to see how you feel if our fight is canceled.

38:53

You know, there's extra time in Australia. Yes. I mean, I do think, like, at some point that's gonna happen. Right? They're not gonna agree to this shit. Yeah, they're just not. And so we're gonna head to a shutdown and then it's gonna be. Who is. Who feels more pressure about the fact that there are flight delays? Right. Is that where we're heading?

38:59

Yeah. I mean, the Republicans did like. The fact that they agreed to this in the first place suggests that they feel real political vulnerability here. Now the attention is starting to focus elsewhere. There's less attention on Minnesota. There's, you know, they sort of pulled the we're de escalating bullshit and like, attention turned. The narrative switched a little bit. But they're still in a really bad place here on Immigration and ice. It's a huge vulnerability for them. Both sides are talking tough right now. The question is, nothing's going to resolve in the next however many days we have left here. The question is, can you do another short term extension to keep negotiating another couple of weeks? I think that would be a very reasonable thing for Democrats to do. These are big changes, and just to think that you're gonna get them done in like 10 days is hard to imagine. But maybe you get another short term extension. I don't know that they're probably, I think, I'm not sure the Republicans want this fight as much as they like Democrats that think they want this fight.

39:20

I think that's true. I wonder if Democrats have the stomach and are ready strategically when the shutdown happens, if and when the shutdown happens, to go out there and stick with the fight. Because I just, you gotta like, you know, we're right back to ACA subsidies, which, by the way, negotiations over the ACA extensions are over.

40:19

Yeah.

40:41

So there will be no ACA extension at all. Even though Republicans felt like maybe they, you know, felt a little pressure. But once again, news moved on and so they feel like they can get away with it.

40:41

I mean, news moved on. The American people did not move on.

40:52

Correct.

40:55

So they're gonna. They will pay. They will pay a stiff price for this one in the fall. But I think the question is not do Democrat. Like we can. We can say, do Democrats have the right communications plan? Are they going to be able to do all the right things? I think they did a pretty good job during the last shutdown. The question is, are those Democrats who reopen the government, what's their stomach?

40:55

Yeah, yeah.

41:14

Like that is the question. Because I think the vast majority of Democrats will go in the House and definitely in the House and certainly in the Senate will go to the mattresses on this. It's that last group there that you have to worry about. And I just don't know where they will come down on this since they were so willing to fold, you know, back in December or November. I guess that was just to give.

41:15

Everyone an idea of what a nightmare DHS is right now. There's a story that caught our eye this week about DHS lawyer Julie Lee, who had been detailed to the U.S. attorney's office in Minnesota from the Department of Homeland Security. On Tuesday, a judge pressed her on why ICE violates so many court orders. And according to courtroom transcripts, Lee responded. The system sucks. This job sucks, and I'm trying with every breath that I have so that I can get you what you need. Sometimes I wish you would just hold me in contempt, your honor, so that I can have a full 24 hours of sleep. She also said, quote, I am not white, as you can see, and my family's at risk as any other people that might get picked up. Her family came from Vietnam. Lee told the judge she'd already tried to quit, but that they can't find a replacement for her and that she'd even taken to emailing ICE officials in 24 point font to try to get their attention, mostly unsuccessfully. Lee has now reportedly been taken off the Minnesota assignment and is back at DHS headquarters in Washington. Wild story it also comes from. There was a Politico story about how overwhelmed prosecutors are everywhere, but especially in Minnesota, trying to deal with the legal fallout from what ICE is doing. Particularly basically everyone that DHS picks up rounds up, whether you're legal resident, whether you're an asylum seeker who's legally supposed to be here, whether you are an undocumented immigrant. They all. They file habeas petitions. You have the right to file a habeas petition. Meaning, like, why have you put Me in jail. And you've got, you know, the government has to like, have a reason. And every one of these habeas petitions then goes to trial or at least has some kind of a hearing, not a trial, but hearing. And there's just too many. There's too many for the courts, there's too many for the prosecutors that they have. There's just too many. And so all these prosecutors, paralegals, everyone working around the clock, no one. And ICE is so irresponsible that they are just, they're not responding, they're not cooperating, they're not doing anything. They're just a fucking rogue agency. That's what they are.

41:38

Yeah, it seems suboptimal. The system is not set up for this level of mass deportation. Even if ICE was doing everything right, they were crossing the eyes, dotting the T's. Then just processing this number of people, having these number of hearings would stress the system. But the fact that you have an incompetent rogue agency that is just sweeping up people because of their accent, because of the color of their skin, because they looked at an officer the wrong way, means you get a lot of people who are being detained who shouldn't be detained, and they're under the court put for good reason, puts tremendous pressure on the government to respond to these habeas petitions because there is a person in a detention center who maybe shouldn't be there. And like, this is what the courts are for. And it can't operate with this level of incompetence and disregard for the law and human decency that you're seeing from ice.

43:44

And by the way, it's probably incompetence as you get sort of down the food chain there to random ICE agents at dhs. But it is also a pretty intentional strategy on behalf of Stephen Miller and the people who are running the show, because what they're doing is they're rounding people up, they're putting them in these detention centers, which are just under horrific conditions. Many of the detention centers they put you in, if you're rounded up, are not in your home state or your city, but in Texas or somewhere far, far away. And what they're telling people once they get them there is, yeah, you can file your habeas petition and you can wait for your hearing in this horrific detention center under these awful conditions, or you can sign this piece of paper right now and we'll just deport you and you can waive your right to a hearing. And so for a lot of these folks, they don't know if they're gonna be successful at their hearing. And maybe they need medical care, maybe they wanna be back with their families, maybe they have young children. And so they feel this pressure to sign the document to then be deported as opposed to waiting for the habeas hearing. And this is like Miller's strategy to try to get as many people deported as possible.

44:40

Yeah, I mean, this has always been true of Trump and the people around him, which is. It is a stunning combination of incompetence and malevolence.

45:46

Did you check out that Wall Street Journal story about Stephen Miller? Did a big profile of Stephen Miller?

45:56

I did, I did. I was gonna send it to you, but I was like, there's just no way. Jon hasn't read this yet.

46:01

I mean, there's a couple points that I. First of all, it's interesting that Donald Trump is maybe starting to realize that Stephen Miller is causing him some political problems. It says in one paragraph, Trump told advisors he isn't comfortable with how far Miller has gone on some fronts. He's mad that business officials were calling to complain about getting their workers rounded up. And then at one point, he sees Miller on TV talking about Venezuela. And Trump talked to aides nearby and he said, why is he on tv? He doesn't do foreign policy. Why is he talking. He doesn't talk about foreign policy. So Trump's. There's a little, you know, maybe Stephen Miller's going too far. But, like, some of the stories about that guy, and these are all from White House officials who are sourced in the story that he basically decided to label Renee Goode a domestic terrorist and Alex Preddy an assassin without any approval or review from anyone else in the administration. After Alex Preddy was murdered, Stephen Miller was just texting directly with Border Patrol agents on the ground. And then it went from the text from the Border Patrol agents to Miller to Twitter calling him an assassin. That's it. That was the whole process.

46:05

Not a good process, apparently, because he.

47:19

Was the one who suggested the Insurrection Act. Apparently in Minneapolis, he was the one. So after, apparently after Renee Goode was killed, there was this debate in the White House, like, should we just withdraw from Minnesota? At least draw down the agents there because, like, things are getting out of control. And Miller was like, no, we gotta send in more. We gotta double down. He's. He's the fucking cancer at the heart of the administration in the country. He really is like, he's a deeply.

47:22

Dangerous individual who is obviously a huge narcissist, but also a megalomaniac. With very, very. I don't even know if disturbing is a strong enough word. Set of odious views about the world that are like, as like white nationalist as it could possibly be. Like, he has a very explicit project about making this country whiter.

47:48

Yep.

48:14

Like that is what he wants to do.

48:15

And look, none of that is going to convince Donald Trump ever to get rid of him. But Republicans do poorly in the midterms. Stephen Miller's fault, everyone. Donald Trump can look around and realize that he lost Congress or lost one or both houses of Congress. If that happens, it is Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller is probably more responsible for that than anyone else around him, I would say.

48:16

And you know who will get fired? Kristi Noem.

48:40

Yeah, maybe, maybe I, there is.

48:44

I mean, this is like such nerdy old people political talk. But there is a lot of like, these are in. These are imperfect historical analogies. I don't stipulate that. But immigration is becoming to Trump in 2026. Immigration, ICE in particular is becoming to Trump in 2026 what Iraq was to George W. Bush in 2006. And people telling him people were dispelled. Exactly. That is exactly right. Which is they refuse to fire the people responsible or at least make a firing to acknowledge that even if it's just purely symbolic, that something is going to change. And they don't do it until afterwards because they're so afraid of admitting failure or weakness that they make their political problems much worse.

48:47

Yeah. Foreign.

49:29

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. February often feels like a non stop parade of romance. There's a thing I always say. John.

49:38

Me too.

49:44

Let's be real. Navigating your love life can be confusing. I'll be on a work trip for Valentine's Day. Whether you're partnered up or flying solo, there's no right way to feel right now. Therapy is a great way to cut through that noise, helping you find your footing and gain some clarity on what you want. Listen, I think we all know a lot of people who need therapy. Maybe your issues manifest with trying to invade NATO countries and, you know, maybe a little therapy would prevent a lot of heartache on the front end.

49:45

What better time to try therapy than with your loved one on Valentine's Day?

50:08

That's right.

50:12

Yeah.

50:13

Romantic Melania.

50:13

Use some of that 40 million you got from Amazon to hire BetterHelp. Better helps quality therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and they're fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and your preferences and in their 12 or more years of experience and industry leading, match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored RECS. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com PSA that's BetterHelp.

50:14

H E L P. POD Save America is brought to you by Bilt. No one likes paying rent, but BILT makes it feel a little better. BILT is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you monthly with points and exclusive benefits in your neighborhood. Let me explain. With Bilt, every rent payment earns you points that can be used towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, and so much more. And here's something to get excited about. Now BILT members can earn points on mortgage payments for the first time. That means you can get rewarded wherever you live and unlock exclusive benefits from more than 45,000 restaurants, fitness studios, pharmacies, and other neighborhood partners. Personally, I'd redeem my points for. Let's see what they got here. Some. Some restaurants. That's kind of cool.

50:57

Yeah, good restaurants and like anything you want on Amazon.

51:40

Yeah, basically just anything. Yeah, that's great.

51:42

Fitness classes.

51:44

Look at that. Travel rides.

51:45

A built travel portal.

51:47

Member only experiences. Boy, but I love a member only experience. It's simple. Paying rent is better with bilt. And now owning a home can be better with bilt too. Earn rewards and get something back wherever you live. Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbilt.com crooked that's J-O-I N B I L T.com crooked make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. One last thing on immigration here. J.D. vance did an interview with the Daily Mail. Not sure why. Where he got this question. Have you apologized?

51:48

Did you plan to apologize to the family of Alex Brady?

52:23

For what?

52:26

For, you know, labeling him an assassin with ill intent.

52:27

Well, again, I just described to you what I said about Alex Preddy, which is that he's a guy who showed up with ill intent to an ICE protest. No, but if it is a guy.

52:30

If it's determined that his civil rights were violated by this FBI Investigation. Will you apologize to that?

52:39

So if. If this hypothetical leads to that hypothetical leads to another, It's a real case. Will I do a thing? And again, like I said, we're going to let the investigation determine. We're going to let the actual law come to the surface and figure out what happened. For what? For what? What I said about Alex Prady is that he showed up with an intent. First of all, no, he didn't. Second of all, you can't know what his intent was. Third of all, you called him an assassin. Or Stephen Miller called him an assassin. You retweeted Stephen Miller still up on your Twitter feed.

52:44

You called Renee Good a domestic terrorist.

53:19

You called Renee Good a domestic terrorist.

53:21

No.

53:22

So maybe you apologize for that. I don't know. I thought you were a Catholic. No, no. Don't feel, as a Christian, that perhaps sometimes you make mistakes, that you're fallible. He's so fucking smug. I cannot. It's the smugness that just takes it to a whole new level for me with him.

53:23

He is the most obnoxious high school debate nerd you could ever possibly meet.

53:42

Oh.

53:49

So this hypothetical to that hypothetical, the way he just uses nonsense logic to run circles around these reporters or at least get out of answering questions, is incredibly frustrating, but he is missing something fundamentally human. Donald Trump is also missing it, but he just. He can't. Like, there is no shame. There is no guilt. Like you said, he's Catholic. He certainly didn't get the guilt part that comes with that. There's no inherent decency. I couldn't. Like, I just can't imagine saying something like that about someone and feeling no obligation to the family, to yourself, to your family, to correct that publicly and that just to stand by it because you've been convinced that to admit failure or to admit being wrong is weakness and treason in MAGA world. And that is just a really. That is stupid politically, but it's a really toxic way to go through life.

53:50

Yeah. He really combines the smugness of the most annoying coastal elite, you know, with the soul of Stephen Miller with the charisma of a shoe. That is. That. That is J.D. vance, presidential candidate from 2028.

54:52

A shoe has neutral charisma. Like, it is something much worse than that.

55:09

You know, like, we. You know, everyone missed Trump in 16. You know, Trump could never be president, but people thought, like, Trump could never be president because they thought, oh, he was too offensive for America. It's not that JD Vance is too offensive or too extreme. It is that he is like, so fucking smug and just devoid of charisma. Like, I don't know, man. Who knows? Who knows in this country? But it does. He does not have what Trump had.

55:13

No, of course not. Like, not even close.

55:37

I don't even think he has. I think Ron DeSantis looks better than him.

55:40

I, I maybe.

55:44

Right.

55:45

That's a tough one.

55:46

That's a tough one.

55:47

I think he probably is a little more deaf than Ron DeSantis, but, but I think he's more odious.

55:48

Yeah. More repulsive than Rhonda, for sure.

55:56

Yeah. More repulsive. Look, I have a lot of thoughts about this. This is coming maybe, or maybe next week, depending on how my long flights go, but it's coming in message box soon is I have a lot of thoughts about JD Vance, what we should be doing right now to frame JD Vance because we have this advantage as Democrats.

55:57

I feel like we're trying every week.

56:17

Here, Dan, that we are. We are. I mean, I'm trying to take what we're doing here and move it out to the rest of the world and also maybe focus what we're doing doing. Maybe be motivated by strategy, not just pure adulterated rage. But JD Vance is going to be the Republican nominee. There's almost no history of a sitting vice president not getting the nomination. Will he have to fight for it? Will he get a primary? Probably, but he's probably, he's almost certainly going to be the nominee. So we have another three years to shape his public image. And Republicans did this very successfully with al Gore from 1996 to 2000. By the point where everyone thought that Al Gore, this famous Boy Scout, was now this inveterate liar who made up things about inventing the Internet and was corrupt in all these ways. J.D. vance, we just have to let people see who he is. But he does not have any of the charisma or cool factor. I know that's gross to say about Trump, but Trump has something that powered his rise that JD Vance does not have. And we can be weaponized against him.

56:18

He's a smug weirdo who probably only appeals to incels. How's that? Test that one. If I hear, if I that no one better, no one better come from the top of the mountain.

57:16

That's a stage direction.

57:26

I don't want to hear someone coming down from the top of the mountain with the tablet saying the message says that JD Vance is in line with the oligarchs and he's gonna hurt working people. I don't want to hear it. It's the ridicule, smug and weird. He's a. He's a odious individual. That's the message. All the other stuff is right, but that's the message. He's out there doing a bunch of media. He also did a sit down with Meghan Kelly, speaking of people we love, where he brought up Trump's attack on Kaitlan Collins earlier in the week. We will play that for you first, in case you haven't seen the Trump attack on Kaitlan Collins, let's watch.

57:27

You know, she's a young woman. I don't think I've ever seen you smile. I've known you for 10 years. I don't think I've ever seen a smile on your face. You know why you're not smiling? Because you know you're not telling the truth.

58:03

No. As she was trying to say, she wasn't smiling because she was asking about survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's sexual abuse of underage girls. That's what she was asking about a couple times when he did that. But here's what the vice president had to say about it.

58:15

She's asking a question.

58:33

The president says, why don't you ever smile?

58:34

Yeah.

58:36

And it's actually, like, so perceptive. Even if you're asking a tough question, even if you take your job very seriously, like, why does it always have to be so antagonistic?

58:36

Well, I laugh because I saw online.

58:45

Everybody was calling him sexist for saying that.

58:47

And I literally said the same thing about Kaitlan Collins a year ago on my show. She never smiles. Every once in a while, you have to smile. Roger Ailes used to tell us that every once in a while, you get.

58:48

Remember smile.

58:57

I bet he did. I bet he. I bet Roger Ailes did tell them to smile and a whole bunch of other things that they have alleged in court documents.

58:58

I mean, this goes back to the earlier point, but to understand JD Vance is to understand him as someone who is an empty vessel for ambition. He just wants power, and he'll do anything. If he has to be against Trump, he'll be against Trump. He has to be for Trump, before Trump. You and I have debated about how much he actually believes this stuff. I think he does, but it's not, neither here nor there. But I think the lesson he's taken from Trump is that the path to political power in America is to be an unapologetic asshole, and maybe you can get away. Trump has gotten away with that. But Trump has, like, a showman, like, appeal. Right. That works for him. That JD Vance does not have. So he's just an asshole. He's not a funny asshole.

59:05

But again, once again, right there, he added the smugness too, of like a. Of the most annoying pundit because he did punditry about Trump. It wasn't just like, I agree with what Trump said. Right. Which would have been bad enough. It was like, and if you actually look, it's so perceptive. It was so perceptive to just scream at a female reporter that she should smile more while she's asking about victims of sexual abuse. So perceptive.

59:43

He's like, he sucks. He sucks. Yeah.

1:00:12

His approval rating's not great. You see those, like they were asking young college Republicans who are like, you know, as extreme as they get these days. College Republicans. And he's like 18 points underwater with college Republicans. These are supposed to, you know, he's supposed to be like the young next generation leader of the party. Not.

1:00:15

He's not going to appeal to young people. I mean, Sarah Longwell has pointed out in multiple occasions just how poorly he does in focus groups with young Republicans. And also she said on Twitter recently that in focus groups of women, JD Vance gives, consistently gives them the ick. Sarah's words like, he has real.

1:00:35

And then, you know, people like clavicular think that, you know, Gavin Newsom mogs him.

1:00:52

Yes. He's very, he's very moggable. Yes. That's his problem.

1:00:58

Is that the way to use it?

1:01:02

I have no idea. I honestly have no idea.

1:01:03

And Austin shaking his head no. Anyway, while we're talking about the assault on the free press, we should mention what Jeff Bezos, another person we love, did to the Washington Post this week. On Wednesday, the Post laid off about a third of of its employees. The sports and book sections were eliminated. The metro section and international coverage were also hit hard. A lot of incredible journalists, including guests we've had across all of our crooked pods, lost their jobs. Adding insult to injury, neither Bezos or Will Lewis, the publisher Bezos appointed in 2023, had the balls to log on to the Zoom where the layoffs were announced. This is according to Ashley Parker, our pal. Ashley, who's a former Post journalist now at the Atlantic. Meanwhile, this is what Jeff Bezos has been up to lately. On Monday, he welcomed Pete Hegseth at his Blue Origin Rocket facility, afterwards writing to Hegseth on Twitter, huge honor to have you at Blue Origin today. Lovely. And of course, Amazon also sank around $75 million into the Melania DOC. That's 40 million for the licensing rights, 35 million from marketing which, you know, they hit 8 million so far, so, so close to making that money back. I know you wrote about all this, what happened with the Post this week in Thursday's message box. So the floor is yours, Dan.

1:01:05

I'm going to rant for a minute, so I'm going to apologize to everyone in advance, but we talk all the time, I write all the time about the declining relevance of legacy media institutions and how the economics of big media have gotten so hard. And so things like this should not feel unexpected, but I think this is an absolute tragedy. It did not need to happen. On the day in which the Post announced these layoffs in, the New York Times announced that they had gained more than a million Digital subscribers in 2025, and their revenue was up 10% year over year. The Wall Street Journal remains strong. They've been growing. They've been adding subscribers. The Post is our other national newspaper. They could have had a very similar path. Maybe they couldn't be the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, who have very specific business models, but they absolutely could succeeded. And they didn't succeed for two reasons. The first is that Jeff Bezos hired Will Lewis, who is an absolute doofus. He came from the British tabloids. He immediately showed up. He was enmeshed in the phone hacking scandal in the uk, lied about it, lost the newsroom, never had a plan, didn't seem particularly interested in executing a plan, had no real attempt to actually save the paper, did not seem to care about the paper. But the biggest reason is Jeff Bezos, because when he bought it in 2013 for $250 million, which is fucking couch cushion money for him, he was heralded as like a savior of a great journalistic institution. He put money into it. He was sort of like he was treated as a savior and someone who, like one of the old media barons, through their generosity, was supporting this important institution in the fourth state and all of that. And then around 2024, he realized that owning the Washington Post, a paper that Donald Trump hated, was now going to be bad for business for him. It was going to make him less filthy rich, slightly less filthy rich. It would make his companies hugely successful companies, slightly less successful. And so he made a couple of decisions that basically torpedoed the paper. The first was he canceled, personally canceled, the paper's planned endorsement of Kamala Harris in 2024. That caused thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of people to cancel their subscriptions. And then in 2025, he announced that the Washington Post editorial page was no longer was going to change in a way to make it less likely to anger Trump who's going to stop doing politics. The whole thing was just ridiculous, a naked ploy. And in doing those things, they lost hundreds of thousands of subscribers they could not afford to lose. And it just completely lit on fire the trust the paper had built over many, many decades with their audience. And it is absolutely a tragedy. I care about this a lot because I went to college in D.C. i've read the Post forever. It is not just a great political newspaper that covers Washington, although they do a great job of that. It had one of the all time great sports sections in any paper ever. Tony Kornheiser, Michael Wilbon, Sally Jenkins wrote there, covered everything. The Metro section people don't remember this, but that Watergate started as a Metro section story because I lived in D.C. for a very long time. There is the town of D.C. had to at Mark Leibovich, which is the political stuff and there's the city. But everything else that's happening there, what's happening in the government, what's happening in the suburbs. And the Metro section cover that the style section was incredible. You remember the profiles done of politicians by our friend Mark Leibovich and Dana Milbank and others who wrote those. There were great columnists, the political reporters there like Dan Balz and David Broder and people like that. And that was all destroyed because a man worth a quarter trillion dollars couldn't be bothered to try to save the paper and thought it would be better for himself to let it die on a vine. And what's left, maybe they can bring it back in some way, shape or form, but right now what's left is the rotting husk of a great journalistic institution. And everyone in D.C. and in the country are poorer because of it. Everyone except Jeff Bezos.

1:02:30

And look like some of it definitely is just I don't want to piss Trump off. And Amazon has contracts with the government and if the government, if Trump turns on Bezos, what's going to happen? All that bullshit. Some of it's also, I think with Jeff Bezos is like he's just another fucking rich guy that thinks his niche political views and the views of the people he surrounds himself with are the views of most Americans. And so you get this sort of like center right, Wall Streety Silicon Valley kind of sensibility that sort of took over the paper, at least in the editorial section. And it's just, you know, these fucking billionaires, they're just, they just, they think that they're told, yes they're surrounded by people who share their views. They all bitch about this and that in politics. And they just, they, they, they are rich enough to buy these toys and then treat them like toys and break them and not really care. And I saw some people say, like, well, you know, all these subscribers that quit after the canceled editorial endorsement of Kamala Harris, like, bear some responsibility as well. Like, why do you, why do you stop your subscription when there's so much other great reporting? Who cares about the editorial board? And like, I get that, but it's also like, the end of the day, you're selling a product to the customer and if the cut, if you piss the customer off and they don't buy the product anymore, that's your fault.

1:06:31

Yes, 100%.

1:08:02

Like, you can blame the customer for sure, but like, that's your, you're the one who, you're the one who caused them to leave with your decision.

1:08:03

I think to the extent there is a larger lesson here, it is. We have talked for a long time about the absolute essential need of building up a progressive, pro democracy media ecosystem. And over the many years, and I have been to one gazillion meetings, fundraising meetings, pitches about this with everyone in the Democratic Party. And a lot of what you hear is we need our billionaires to come in and support progressive media. And you do need that. You need support to do it. But what a billionaire can give, they can also take away. And so what you need here is that we're not going to be able to build up a competing ecosystem to Fox News and Breitbart and Daily Wire and all the rest simply by a handful of democratic billionaires giving money to progressive content creators and media people. You have to build sustainable businesses. That's the only way that independent media will work. And like that is. And you know this, you are running a large media company in message box. I'm running a much smaller little media company. But like, that is it, is it? If you are depending on what are equivalently charitable donations from foundations and individuals, that can last you for a while. But one day that's going to go away.

1:08:11

Yep.

1:09:22

Either because the billionaire changes their mind, the economy changes, or whatever it is. And so it has to be a sustainable business. Which is why the beginning of this podcast, you made the request that people subscribe to Friends of the Pod because that is one of the ways in which we make Crooked Media a sustainable business. It's one of the reasons why I'm constantly bothering people to subscribe to messagebox because it's one of the ways in which continue to do it, because I'm not depending on anything other. We're trying to build products that people want and will pay for so that we can make more of those products which we believe is good for democracy and good for our messaging.

1:09:22

That's exactly right. It's because it's not just to sustain us now, but it's to grow. It's because we want to make sure how many fucking journalists are out of a job right now, Right? And, like, we desperately need more reporting. And I'm not even, like, just. It's not even about, like, opinion reporting at this point or opinion journalism or punditry or analysis. Like, we just need people out there doing reporting. I mean, some of the people that were laid off from the Post, they were in war zones in Ukraine.

1:09:52

They fired the Post reporter while she was in a war zone.

1:10:19

I mean, and it's like, we are heading into this by email.

1:10:23

They fired her by email. Be very clear.

1:10:27

We've been dealing with, you know, misinformation and this, like, difficulty and figuring out, like, a shared reality. We are now it's gonna be supercharged by artificial intelligence. And it is, if it is not the time to have less reporting, you know, because pretty soon people aren't gonna know what to believe at all. And reporting helps us do that. So, you know, I know that some people that you see some. A lot of right wingers and MAGA people and just like annoying pundits are like, oh, it's a business and a business failed and you know, you don't need to cry over it and blah, blah, it's like, fine, whatever, but like you, you need. Journalism is valuable for democracy. Reporting is valuable for a democracy. If we want to live in a world where we have good information, we know what's going on, and we can make decisions based on good informations about how we live together. Like, you need journalism for that.

1:10:29

So it is true that some media businesses are doomed to fail because of changing economics. And we can talk for a long time about what has happened with social media platforms and advertising and now AI, but the Washington Post was not one of those. The Washington Post had a clear path to sustainability, and they did not go down that path because Jeff Bezos did not take them down that path.

1:11:22

That's right. That's right. All right, when we come back, you'll hear Dan's interview with Maine Governor Janet Mills.

1:11:40

Foreign.

1:11:50

Is brought to you by Willy's Remedy. Are you tired of waking up hungover and Worrying about what happened last night. Now you can have fun and relax without any of the regrets with Willy's THC infused social tonic. Willy's gives you that social uplifting buzz without breaking your goals. It is perfect for socializing, boosting creativity or just taking the edge off after a long day. Willy's is a premium THC infused social tonic crafted by the legendary Willie Nelson. Inspired by Willy's way of living where peace flows freely and the hangovers are a thing of a past. It's low calorie, low sugar alcohol alternative that actually works, delivering a fast acting, euphoric social buzz without the regrets that come with alcohol. Willy's Social tonics come in 5 milligram and 10 milligram doses with a best in class flavor experience so smooth and balanced you barely realize you're drinking a THC product at all. You can enjoy tonics as a shot sip over ice or mixed with your favorite mocktail. Willy's is not that feared edible that you ate too much of in college.

1:11:56

We've all been there. Yeah, college.

1:12:50

Each bottle of Willy's is third party lab tested for accurate dosage so you can trust and customize your experience. Thank God they figured out that dosing thing.

1:12:53

No kidding. It was dicey out there for a while. You experience this, two days later you're.

1:13:00

Like, oh my God. Willy's unique blend of thc, cbd, CBG and L theanine delivers a feeling of calm, clarity, euphoria and relaxation with one shot of Willys helps you relax, unwind and de stress. Perfect for taking the edge off at the end of a long day or socializing with friends. Willys offers the kind of feeling that makes good company even better.

1:13:04

Can't believe Lovett's not here for this ad.

1:13:22

I know.

1:13:23

He literally is so happy about this product that he said he can't wait to do the personal endorsement for the ad. Read. It's really funny.

1:13:24

He walked into the office this morning, saw some Willies on our coffee table and he was like, I tried that last night. It's so good. And honestly, like Lovett had kind of quit weed. I hope he's fine with us saying that. But he gave it a shot and he was like, this makes me want.

1:13:30

To get back on the horse.

1:13:41

It's so good and mellow.

1:13:42

He's been high ever since he's been higher.

1:13:43

Willie sold out three times in the first six months with over 50,000 happy customers and they just restocked. Willie ships directly to your doorstep at 40 or more states order now at drink willys.com and use code CROOKED for 20% off your first order, plus free shipping on orders of over $95. And enjoy life in the high country that is drink willys.com use the code CROOKED for 20% OFF your first order.

1:13:45

I didn't even realize I was wasting $415 a month until I downloaded Rocket Money. I thought I had my finances under control until the app laid out all my spending and categorized it for me. Takeout shopping and unused subscriptions were quietly draining my account, and as a result, my savings took a back seat. But Rocket Money doesn't just tell you what you're wasting money on. It takes action to save you money. First, the app looks at your income and monthly expenses and calculates how much you can safely spend each day to stay under budget. Rocket Money also fines and cancels unwanted subscriptions for you and even negotiates better rates on your bills so you have more money in your pocket. On average, Rocket Money members can save up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Users love the app with over 186,000 five star ratings. It's time to simplify your finances and take control of your Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Cancel to get started. That's RocketMoney.com Cancel RocketMoney.com Cancel.

1:14:08

Joining us now is the governor of Maine and a candidate for U.S. senate, Janet Mills. Governor Mills, welcome to the podcast.

1:15:11

Thank you. Good to see you. Good to be here.

1:15:17

Okay, so there has been in recent weeks so much attention, understandably so, on what's been happening with ICE in Minnesota. But at the same time, my ICE has been in your state, and I've seen some of the videos, and they seem quite terrifying to lots of your residents. And can you tell us what that experience was like with ICE in your state and what's happening with ICE right now in Maine?

1:15:20

Sure. Thanks for the question. Listen, we heard three weeks ago that ICE was looking for a staging area. So we got word they might be coming, the cavalry are coming. And we started preparing. And I said, I made a public announcement that, listen, if they're sending ICE agents with those provocative and violent behaviors that they showed us in Minneapolis and elsewhere that they weren't welcome here.

1:15:38

Here.

1:16:01

Well, they came, we kept an eye on things. We worked with local law enforcement and state law enforcement and with local organizations to keep track of what they were doing and where they were doing it. And so for about a full week, they began, well, first of all they announced they were making this operation and calling it Catch of the Day. Operation Catch of the Day, which is about as insulting as you get. I mean, it was not a fishing derp. It involved real human beings being taken violently from their cars, taken from workplaces and schools and from their families and homes and taken God knows where, one state to another state to another state. And they said they had a target of 1400 people they wanted to take into custody. 1400 people. Well, these aren't the worst of the worst, let me tell you right now. And what we saw happening on the streets, Portland and Lewiston and Bitterhood, Maine, was not anything to do with the worst of the worst. We saw people with no criminal backgrounds, no criminal charges, being hauled from cars, being hauled from their homes and taken into custody and kind of disappearing, disappearing. And that included a civil engineer who was here on a construction job. It included two law enforcement agents, two corrections officers in two different counties who were snatched from their cars and their cars left running in the streets. So that the local sheriff said, this is a botched operation. This is bush league policing, bush league law enforcement. So that's what we saw. Has it subsided? Well, we've heard a couple more reports yesterday of people being taken by unidentified officers. Unidentified people. That's disturbing. Susan Collins made an announcement that the enhanced ICE operation had ceased. We have yet to have confirmed the confirmation of that. But the point is, why did it happen in the first place? Seriously, Catch of the day. Why did she not know it was coming in the first place? Why didn't she stop it in the first place? Stop people with no criminal charges being taken from their families, snatched from the state of Maine? And so now I'm working with local authorities and organizations to identify exactly who has been disappeared. They claim they took 206 people. Who are they? Where are they now? Under what legal status are they now? What warrants were used? We haven't seen any yet. And identify how people can be reunited with their families and get back to work and contribute to their communities.

1:16:02

As you point out, Susan Collins announced on Twitter, I think, that the operation was over, and claimed credit for it. This is, I imagine, sort of how she's going to run for reelection in the state to try to show independence of some kind from Trump or show influence with Trump. But you say you have no evidence that the operation has, that these extra ICE officers have left or anything like that. Is that correct?

1:18:41

Yeah. Fewer reports of kidnappings and whatnot. Fewer reports of people disappearing from their cars and homes. That's true. But who knows? Would it restart tomorrow? They gave us very little warning that it was happening in the first place. And we've demanded answers. The attorney general and I wrote a letter last Friday to Christine Ohm and insisted on answers about who the people are, where they are and their legal status and whatnot. So Susan Collins has the ability to control this behavior if she wanted to. She has that ability. But she's been playing these political games for a long time and she has voted with Trump as, you know, like 94% of the time. 94%. She's not fooling anybody here by claiming a victory lap. It's like they came in. Why did they come in in the first place? Why didn't you stop them if you had that power? And she's a person who supported and voted to confirm Kristi Noem, who, Christine, who has no law enforcement ability or experience, who shouldn't be heading up this agency to begin with. And, you know, where did the orders come from? Where do they get these 1400 targets? How? We need answers.

1:19:02

So there's a larger conversation about what's going to happen with ice. And I think there's two parts of that conversation. There is what can be done right now, short term while Trump is president. And then there's the question of what happens when a Democrat is president, hopefully has a Senate congressional majority. Let's start with the first part here. So over the next week or so, Congress is negotiating over the funding for the Department of Homeland Security bill. Democrats want some set of guardrails in exchange for their votes to fund the department. You're running for Senate. Seems like a fair question to ask. What? What would it take if you were in the Senate right now, what sort of guardrails would you need for your vote to keep the department funded?

1:20:17

Well, first of all, there shouldn't be $1 more additional funding for ICE for DHS without concrete controls, substantive controls reforms to account for the behavior they've already conducted, already engaged in, and to prevent such behavior in the future. Basic training would be a good thing. Sure. Body cams. They've been talking about body cams, but you got to tell them to turn them on and save the tapes. For instance, you know, our police officers in Maine, they know how to do that. They've been trained. It's sort of simple, stupid de escalation techniques. Of course, it sounds like this group has been trained to escalate, not to de escalate. And of course, there's no need to be anonymous and unidentified if you're a trained police officer under basic standards. You shouldn't have any problem identifying yourself before you make an arrest, stop somebody on the street, or tear into somebody's home or car. It's basic police procedure. Identify yourself. And so there are a lot of other concrete things you could do, but not a dollar more in funding until you account for what's happened and have independent investigations into what's already happened. The people have no confidence in the suggestion that there might be an investigation into the killing of Alex Preddy or Renee Goode. This is not happening. There should be a transparent and independent investigation. We know how to do that. I was Attorney General for eight years in Maine. We did independent investigations into the police use of deadly force. It's by law and by good, good public policy in our state and most every state. We know good law enforcement in this state. We train them up for 18 weeks minimum in Maine. And I help teach the courses on constitutional law, fourth Amendment and such. They know better than to do what the ICE agents have been doing in Maine and other states in recent months. And our law enforcement agents, they don't have to wear masks. They know better. And they don't go out and do a sweep of whole communities based on some artificial quota set by some political figurehead for no good reason.

1:20:53

Would you require a ban on masks in exchange for your vote?

1:23:05

Sure.

1:23:09

I mean, it's sort of simple, fundamental. Why would anyone. Why would any law enforcement agency need to wear masks? For fear of retaliation? Well, what would there be retaliation about if you weren't doing some bad stuff? Right? Yeah.

1:23:09

I mean, that's sort of the point. Right? That's the point of the accountability.

1:23:23

Don't do it in the first. You won't worry about retaliation.

1:23:26

All right, let's talk long term or medium term, I guess. Your primary opponent, grand partner, has called for abolishing ICE in a CNN interview. You didn't go that far. Can you tell me what you would. How. What would you want to see if you were in the Senate? How to change ice? If I'm correct and that you're not for abolishing it, what does a new reformed ICE look like?

1:23:30

It could end up being abolished. But first of all, got to have accountability. As I mentioned, investigations into what's gone on so far and how do you prevent that from happening again? And for goodness sakes, when bad things do happen, you have to coordinate with local and state officials to investigate bad stuff. Like the killings of two people in Minneapolis. We investigate killings here in Maine. We know how to do that. And you don't just abscond with the car, the body, the evidence, and not let local enforcement who know what they're doing, investigate bad behavior like that and violent acts by ice. So require independent investigations into these actions and prepare for investigations coordinated with state and local officials if things continue to happen like that. That's sort of basic retraining. The people who've been hired with these amazing recruitment bonuses from the, the big bad bill of last summer. Retrain them. If they've been trained in the first place, teach them de escalation. It seems like these people have been trained in escalation, not de escalation. Make sure they're accountable and obviously identifying themselves. A lot of, lot of, lot of nitty gritty things that would have to be reworked to hold ICE accountable for what they've done and let them continue operating in any sense of the word, but not $1 more in funding. And look, then there's the money they've gotten from last summer to build these detention centers in states across the country. That's pretty scary, too. And that ought to stop.

1:23:50

At the beginning of your answer. You said it could be abolished. What do you mean by that?

1:25:34

Well, if they can't make these basic concrete reforms, these changes, they can't let them go on doing what they're doing, terrorizing neighborhoods and communities and whole cities, terrorizing the public safety and people's fundamental constitutional rights, civil rights.

1:25:38

So abolishing ICE is on the table or moving, or sometimes I hesitate to just use the slogan, but moving enforcement to a different part of the government.

1:25:56

But the problem is, the problem is if you change the name, this administration will just create another agency with a different name, with the same mission, a very dangerous, violent mission. You have to stop the violence in whoever's name. It's done. And it's the people given the orders from above that are the threat to our country.

1:26:07

Right. And theoretically, under this scenario, it's a Democratic president doing this. Right. Like, I, like, I don't have any hope or idea that this would happen under Trump, but I'm sort of thinking of 2029. You're in the Senate, in a Senate majority, potentially. We have a Democratic House, we have President pick your candidate of choice. And so it's like, what can Democrats do there where it's not just Trump just not renaming it, it's a Democratic decision about how to enforce immigration law and whether ICE as currently constituted would be part of that.

1:26:29

That's a question.

1:27:02

Yeah.

1:27:04

Or suggestion.

1:27:04

Well, that's What? I guess that's my. I guess I was just surprised to hear you say abolishing ICE was on the table. So I just wanted to get some clarity on that.

1:27:05

If there's no other way to change what's going on right now. But first and foremost, the Congress right this minute has the power to withhold further funding. And the Senate has the power to stand up to this administration and demand concrete answers, concrete reforms, changes and accountability. And that's what must happen. I think the American people are insisting on that. Even the Republicans are hearing that voice back home that things have got to change. Things have got to change. They've got to. And you know what? It can't just be, oh, let's wait 10 days, another two weeks, kick the can down the road like Washington tends to do. Anyway, look at the aca and let's say, oh, let's start a task force. And look at this, a commission, a blue ribbon, pink ribbon, green ribbon commission. No. No way. Okay, People know what's happened. We don't need to re examine things, but let's get answers to the questions that were raised just the other day and those hearings from the brothers of Renee Goode, from other victims of the Minneapolis rampage. Get answers for what happened then and how we can stop it from continuing, first and foremost. And until that happens, not $1 more.

1:27:15

In the last couple days, Trump has said that he wants to federalize elections, have the federal government take over. He has doubled and tripled and now quadrupled down on that in recent days. Steve Bannon said that he declared that ICE would be showing up at polling places on election Day. We have the Director of National Intelligence seizing ballots in Fulton County. Have you begun thinking about how to secure elections in Maine from federal interference this November?

1:28:31

Sure. I mean, these are dangerous, dangerous words, dangerous talk, dangerous thoughts, dangerous threats to our democracy. And as governor of this state, I will stand firm. And as a state that has repeatedly. Large turnout, a large turnout of voters every election year, one of the highest turns out turnouts in the country. We will protect every individual's right to vote this November and take every action necessary to secure the polls and secure absentee ballots. We just fought a battle with Republicans this past November where they tried to take away absentee ballots, put a measure on the ballot to take away balloting, and we defeated it by a huge margin because people don't want to do that. They hold dear their right to vote. It is sacrosanct, not just in this state, but every state. And we will make every effort to make sure that the polls are not violated by some agency like ice. The Constitution says the states have authority over elections and we will assert that authority under my governorship and in this state make sure that people are able to vote safely without intimidation, without deprivation of rights.

1:28:59

When you announced that you were running for Senate, it appeared they came after significantly long deliberation. You thought long and hard about it and you decided that you were the best person to do it. This was the time to go. My sort of. I intuited from that that you believe that you're the best person to beat Susan Collins. Do you think you're the only person to beat Susan Collins?

1:30:28

Look, right now the issue is electability. Right now in this. And we have run people against Susan Collins before, wonderful people, but we've run people who are not tested. I have run and won two statewide elections. I had a seven way primary the first time and I won. I had a four way general election and I won. I have been up and down this state. People know me, whether they agree with everything I say or not. They know me and they know that what you see is what you get. I'm a person in this primary who has done that, who's won two statewide elections by 13 points last time, increasing margins. I'm the only person in this primary who's delivered progress for Maine people when it comes to health care, reproductive rights, education, climate action, all those things. And I'm the only person in this primary who's actually stood up to Donald Trump and I'll do it again as a US Senator. So I put my record up of electability. This, this is a crucial state, as you well know. Control of the US Senate, I believe, goes through Maine.

1:30:53

It has to.

1:32:09

Yeah, the machinery is already promised. They've already committed $42 million to an advertising campaign this coming fall. They've already had Susan Collins up on TV saturating the airwaves since last fall, saying all these good things about her and trying to build up her image and trying to get behind the fact that she voted. She gave the critical vote. She cast the critical vote to confirm Brett Kavanaugh. She cast votes for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. She cast the vote for Kristi Noem. She cast the votes for Linda McMahon. All these decisions and her 94% voting rate with Donald Trump. And this is the woman who said just a, a couple years ago, Donald Trump, I think he's learned his lesson, quote, unquote. You know, I'll take her on. I'll take her on because It'll be a hyper local campaign. What have you done for Maine? What have you done for Maine? And I can go toe to toe with Susan Collins on that basis and I can win.

1:32:09

One of the concerns, as you know, and it's been brought up in every interview that you've done has been about your age. And so you have. I've appreciated that you've taken that on directly in a lot of ways. But one way in which you took it on is that you have made a pledge to serve one term. Can you talk to me about why you made that pledge and whether some people's fears that this just means we're going to have another open seat race in Maine in six years is a concern.

1:33:19

What's really critical to me is the next couple years, the more I see what's happening in Washington. You brought up just a few minutes ago the threat to our elections this year. That's not going to stop. And if we don't take control of our country in the next couple years, I worry we may not have a country. And that is why I'm running, because we need to take back control of the U.S. senate. We need to stand up to Donald Trump. We need to push forward on things like universal health care. And I have the ability and the experience to start on day one, getting stuff done, making these changes, standing up for the rights of people, standing up for a better economy, affordability and progress for people in health care and education and otherwise. I have the ability to do that on day one, and I'm not going to start on day two. Dialing for dollars, running for reelection. I want my whole focus and my whole focus will be on getting the job done as soon as I get there. We have a young bench behind me and the office would be open another six years, God forbid. We still have a country, we still have elections. There will be other people behind me. And I've always been pleased to mentor young people and younger Democratic Party candidates, and I'll continue to do that as well. But I'm giving it my all. I'm not running because I need a position or a platform or resume builder. I don't need that. I need to be down there. And I think people say, well, you won't have seniority, really. If I'm part of taking back the US Senate, my voice will be heard and it will be heard loudly.

1:33:46

Last question for you. You have said that you are undecided on how you would vote for Senator Schumer as leader. My understanding at least, is that Senator Schumer spent a lot of time and energy recruiting you to run for Senate. I've been on the other end of some of Senator Schumer's phone calls over the years, so I can imagine what that was like. The DSCC is supporting you. Is that an awkward position to be in? And what would. And what. How would you decide whether to support Senator Schumer or not? Like, what is that? What is making you undecided on that point?

1:35:42

Let me back up a second, because before I decided to run in mid October, I had had exactly one conversation with Chuck Schumer. One meeting.

1:36:10

Oh, interesting. Okay, that's good to know.

1:36:18

January or February of last year, he was not pushy. He said. He simply said, we think you're the. You're the candidate who can win, who can beat Susan Collins. And I gave it a lot of thought. In the meantime, it was I who decided to run. Nobody else, anybody who knows me knows that I'm not beholden to anybody. I have made no commitment to Chuck Schumer. Nobody in Washington pulls my chain, yanks my chain. Whether it's Chuck Schumer or Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump, people know that I stand up and speak my mind. And the question I will ask anybody running for majority Leader next year, year from now, would be, what can you do to help me do the best job I can for Maine people? How can you help me help Maine people? And I've had conversations with other senators who, well, may be in the running for a majority lead. I don't know, but I've held an open door to them as well and happy to hear from them on all accounts. So, you know, I have no commitment. I appreciate that the DSC thinks I'm the best candidate. I think I'm the best candidate also. I happen to agree with that, and that's why I'm running. And let me be clear. I would be running for this seat because I feel so strongly that we have got to stand up for our country, especially in the next few months, in the next few years. I would be running for this whether Chuck Schumer were in office or anybody else in that office. I chose to run, and I am running with a commitment and the passion to help turn things around in a broken Washington, D.C. in a government that is not simply not doing the right things, but is doing all the wrong things. A government that is taking a wrecking ball not just to the White House, but to the Constitution, to our economy, to the rights of American people. I can't stand for that. Anymore. My work isn't finished here. With everything I've done at the state level, I'm very anxious to go on to the federal level and continue the work I've done at the state level, but also stand up to an abuse of power the likes of which we have never seen before. Because I think these times are most urgent, most urgent, dangerous times that we've seen since the Civil War. That's what I feel and that's why I'm running.

1:36:20

Governor Mills, thank you so much for joining us.

1:38:52

Thank you.

1:38:54

Good luck on the campaign trail and we will be we will talk to you again before your primary. I hope.

1:38:54

Hope so. Thank you very much.

1:38:59

That's our show for today. Thanks to Janet Mills for coming on. Tommy's gonna be back on the feed on Super Bowl Sunday. He's gonna be interviewing sports journalist Pablo Torre. Bye, everyone.

1:39:05

Bye, everyone.

1:39:12

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

1:39:15