The Greatest Risk Is Not Deciding: Michelle Huntington

This is Women Road Warriors with Shelly Johnson and Cassie Ticcaro from the corporate office to the cab of a truck. They're here to inspire and empower women in all professions. So gear down, sit back and enjoy. Welcome. We're an award-winning show dedicated to empowering women in every profession. Their inspiring stories and expert insights. No topics off limits on our show. We Power Women on the Road to Success with expert and celebrity interviews and information you need. I'm Shelly. And I'm Cassie. Have you ever had to make a decision so critical that waiting even for a moment could make things worse? Imagine doing that at 35,000 feet, responsible for hundreds of lives with no luxury of perfect information. Our guest today lived that reality every day. Michelle Huntington is a former airline captain. She was told at the beginning she could not become a pilot. She did anyway and became one of fewer than 500 female captains worldwide, who spent over two decades navigating storms, system failures and high stakes decisions were hesitation, simply wasn't an option. And what she learned in the cockpit might surprise you. The greatest risk isn't being wrong, it's not deciding. Today Michelle brings those same principles into the business world, helping leaders cut through chaos, make confident decisions under pressure and lead with clarity when it matters most. Michelle is a TEDx speaker, corporate trainer and author of Lady MacGyver, unbelievable stories with altitude. I love that title by the way. If you've ever felt stuck, overwhelmed or waiting for perfect timing, this conversation is going to shift the way you think. Michelle, welcome to our show. We're so glad to have you with us. We can't wait to hear your insight. Thanks, Shelley. Yes, welcome, welcome, welcome, Lady MacGyver. Oh, I love that. I love it. I call myself that, but no, I need the actual MacGyver. You always get it with paper clips as MacGyver was. It seemed like he could do stuff with anything you'd find around the house. Absolutely. What is it? Two-in-Garm, belly button, lint? Yes, the paper thing. That's great. Michelle, I'm in awe of your experience. It's definitely a higher altitude than most people travel. And you had some real marksy when you were told you couldn't be a pilot. How did your career evolve and how did you overcome all of that? So I was, my father was in the Royal Australian Air Force and we travelled around as kids with him overseas. And back in the 70s, giving away my age, the mid-70s, I was able to go up in a Mirage fighter jet, which these days with OH&S, et cetera, it would not be allowed as a seven-year-old child. I was able to go up in that and I fell in love with just that thrill of flight and the G forces and also these pilots were revered as demigods. And they didn't appear to be doing anything special because when I was, you know, when you're a child, you look at things without full understanding, but see them press the same buttons in sequence and think, yep, I can do that. So my parents never said, my sister and I couldn't do anything. It's like, well, if you can find a way, we support you. You know, we weren't a rich family. They didn't pay for everything. We had to work it out ourselves. So growing up, I had this belief I was going to be a pilot. When I moved back to Australia and finished my schooling, year 10, which is, I'm not sure what that's equivalent to in your schooling system, but it was before we did our final two years of school before university. And we had to choose subjects. And my career advisor, I was at a girl's school. She told me that women couldn't be pilots. And I was a pretty compliant young girl. You know, I was brought up in the era of, you know, seen and not heard sort of thing and smile and say yes to everything. And I did ask her why I couldn't be. And she told me, and this is going to sound like I was silly for not, for like, believing her, but she actually told me that women couldn't be pilots because we were built anatomically different to men, which is like, yeah, of the, but she said the reason why is that female pilots, their guts would fall out. And so they'd have to wear tampons every time they flew. She's, oh my God. I know, ridiculous. And yeah, it just doesn't make sense in any way. And I was quite a smart, like, you know, girl, I wasn't, I wasn't silly in any way, but I just was kind of in shock, I suppose, and, and just took that answer as OK. And she suggested that because I was good at drawing and art to follow that as a career path and I did, I did for quite some time. So it was only the fact that I met somebody, a female, a female who was studying to become a pilot years later, that it was kind of like, oh, it is possible. And her guts hadn't fallen out. I'm never even a murderer like, wow. No, I know, I know. It's embarrassing, actually, because it's like, no, I wasn't, I wasn't silly. And my kids have read my book and they say, Mum, like, seriously, you didn't question that. And I, you know, I have, I have curated myself since, but it was just that thing of an elder, you know, you brought up to respect your elders and to be a good girl and to comply. And I did that. And yeah, it was, look, nothing's, everything's at the right timing is my belief. So sure, it meant that for 15 years, I didn't realise that dream to become a pilot. But I learned some other life skills and met some interesting people along the way to that. Which helped. So then you automatically just go into a flight school. How did that all work? Well, I, so I was 27 when I met, so I had a divorce. I had a two year old son and I moved to a small country town and joined a mixed Oz tag, which I'm not sure if you've got it. It's like a league, like our rugby league that we have here. And, but it's with a, you have to tip people. And it was a mixed, mixed team, men and women. And there was one other woman on the team. And I went to her and asked her what she did, you know, introduced myself. And she was learning to fly. And she, she basically said, like nothing dramatic. She just said, all you do is, you know, do the interview, pay the money and learn to fly. It's that easy. And so then I was like, oh my goodness, okay, this is possible. And I started researching how I'm going to do this. And it was as simple as you, you know, pay the money to a flying school. So I needed to sell my home in order to do that. And I'm, my son and I moved it back in with my mom in Sydney. And then I needed a bank loan because I didn't have quite enough money. So I went to the bank and asked them for a loan to learn to fly. And they said to me, no, you know, we're not going to, to loan you money for that because women can't be pilots. This was in a small country town. And I thought, here we go again. Yes. But this time I wasn't so compliant. I was kind of a bit feisty by then. And so I just went home, put on some lippie, went to a different bank and just totally faked it and said, I needed to borrow money for to, you know, decorate my house. And they said, okay, here's some money. So I knew I could pay it back. And I've since spoken to banking people and they said, well, you might have been done for fraud back then. But, you know, I got the money and I did go to a flying school, paid for the whole amount up front and then started my flying lessons when I was 28. Wow. That's amazing. Yes, it is. You know, I think what it boils down to is mindset. Once you tell yourself that you can do it, no, nothing is going to stop you. Right. It's like I left nursing and I didn't know what I wanted to be. So I went to a career planning workshop at 42. And the lady, the facilitator after three days said, you know, I had the aptitudes of being a heavy equipment operator. You know, I'm like, you're kidding. Like there's no way, right? I'm 42. I'm a woman. Like they're not mechanic. Like there's no possible way. And she said, if only you believe in yourself, you know, you could see, you could do this. And she put on this video where it's possible, this YouTube video and sitting there, listening to this person say, just change, you know, if you believe it's possible, you can do it. So then all of a sudden something clicked in my brain and I started thinking, well, instead of thinking, well, you know, this BS and you know, there's no way I'm going to be a heavy equipment operator. I started thinking, well, I'm a good driver. I could drive a truck. And, you know, all of a sudden I opened myself to the possibility. Had I chosen to remain fixated on that I couldn't do it, I wouldn't be here today. So it's all about mindset. So you doing the same thing, you know, you're going to do whatever it takes to do it. And you did. And that's awesome. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And good on you for, you know, being open to the heavy machinery operator as well. Oh, yeah. That was a massive change. Like massive. That's it. And our conditioning, you know, and the whole societal thing about what women should do. And this isn't, you know, doing the whole gender dissing on men. It's just what we've been conditioned to. So yeah. I was conditioned since a child that I wasn't good enough, that I couldn't, you know, I was, I wasn't, I was a waste of skin. I would never amount to nothing, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it took me a long time to decondition myself to unlearn all that and then reframe my brain to like, wait a minute, I'm freaking awesome and I can do anything I want. And it changed everything. Yep. You know, and I tell women that everywhere, like, oh my gosh, you know, step away from what people are telling you and learn to, to look at yourself, learn about yourself. What do you like? What don't you like? What can I do? What are my possibilities? What are the opportunities? You can play. That's right. Absolutely. And, and I think a lot of that when we're younger and I was fortunate, my sister and I, that we had parents who did support us and it's the, well, you've got to make it happen. Sort of messaging that becomes so your parents and your, your communities. Words become your inner voice almost. And it's as you grow up. And so that's thing, well, you've got to make it happen. You've got to make it happen. Anything's possible. So that's also where a bit of the MacGyver, the Lady MacGyver thing came in is that, okay, don't look at it as a problem. What have you got? What do you need and how can you make that? Stay tuned for more of Women Road Warriors coming up. Dean Michael, the tax doctor here. I have one question for you. Do you want to stop worrying about the IRS? If the answer is yes, then look no further. I've been around for years. I've helped countless people across the country and my success rate speaks for itself. So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems. What are you waiting for? If you owe more than $10,000 of the IRS or haven't filed in years, call me now at 888-557-4020 or go to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free consultation and get your life back. Welcome back to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Takarov. If you're enjoying this informative episode of Women Road Warriors, I wanted to mention Kathy and I explore all kinds of topics that will power you on the road to success. We feature a lot of expert interviews. Plus we feature celebrities and women who've been trailblazers. Please check out our podcast at womenroadwarriors.com and click on our episodes page. We're also available wherever you listen to podcasts on all the major podcast channels like Spotify, Apple, YouTube, Amazon Music, Audible, you name it. Check us out and bookmark our podcast. Also don't forget to follow us on social media. We're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn, YouTube and other sites. And tell others about us. We want to help as many women as possible. We've been talking with Michelle Huntington, former airline captain, TEDx speaker and author of Lady MacGyver, unbelievable stories with altitude. Michelle spent years navigating storms, system failures and rapidly changing conditions in the cockpit even when she was told women should never fly. She learned to be able to weather the storm and make critical decisions when hesitation was not an option. It was her experience in the cockpit when she discovered that many organizations face the same kind of turbulence every day. Meetings that go in circles, delayed decisions, unclear ownership and leaders waiting for certainty that never arrives. Michelle now helps organizations apply that disciplined thinking that pilots use in the air to make better decisions on the ground. She showcased a never ending versatility that flies in the face of adversity and learned how to believe in herself, which she now shares with others, especially women. Michelle, that kind of tenacity and moxie and the ability to solve problems really worked out well for you being a captain. Now I guess I'm wondering what kind of things did you learn when you were flying and what were some of the experiences that actually brought you back down to the ground to teach everybody how to deal with say the greatest risk isn't being wrong, it's not deciding. Because obviously you have to make decisions in a split second when you're up 30,000 feet. Yeah, so definitely training. So it's trying to, these days they call it gamify, but really practicing worst case scenarios when you are on the ground. So knowing your own boundaries and parameters, which personally I didn't actually get right for quite a few years, only until a few years ago. But within the job, it was quite easy because there were rules and regulations around what you could do not only within the company and the aircraft operating system, but legally throughout the world, etc. So having those definite boundaries and practicing the worst case scenarios, then when it came to it actually making the decision, I had a decision making process. I already knew and muscle memory, I already knew where I was going, what the outcome needed to be. So I'd practiced it. So it wasn't like, and even if it was something that had never happened to me before, it was similar enough to things I had practiced that it didn't feel like a big decision. It didn't feel, I didn't get that shock of, oh my goodness, what am I going to do here? Because it was, this is what I do. My natural thing is we have acronyms for everything in aviation. And I'm not sure if it's the same, Kathy in the heavy machinery world, but we have, you know, aviate, navigate, communicate or ANC. So aviate means, you know, basically be safe. Am I safe? Am I the right way up? Am I breathing? Everyone's, you know, no one's on fire. And then navigate. Am I going in the right direction and then communicate? So unfortunately a lot of us, and I am guilty of this in my personal life up until not that long ago of, you know, saying things to the world, but not actually deciding or going through with anything or knowing what to do. And so at 35,000 feet, it was, we had, you know, a playbook as such of checklists that we knew the immediate actions and then we could refer to. We had practiced things. So, and also we had a team around us and everybody in that team knew their role and there were triggers to when the role really started, when we, when we zoned in to, to what we needed to do in an emergency. And it was just, it wasn't hard. You know, you were talking about communication is, is one of the acronyms with aviation. And it's obviously super important in your press kit. It said in aviation, hesitation compounds risk. I was reading an article and they were talking about how there's such a lack of communication today, whether you're texting somebody, whether you're emailing somebody, you really, you don't always hear back from them. It's kind of like, hello, are you there? There, there, there. Get, if you like, there's an echo and there's no one there. Are you in a cavern somewhere? Nobody's communicating. We have some of the best technology today so we could all communicate. In the article, they called it communication paralysis. And that seems like that plays in real well with the messaging you have. People aren't doing anything. They're just paralyzed. Yeah. If you think about it, how many forms of communication I was talking to somebody and we were discussing the forms of communication and it's, it's the fact that you get WhatsApp messages, you get, you know, teams messages, you get other forms of, and there's emails and people CC people in and then there's that thing of CCing back and you don't, you've given a piece of information that's so diluted and so spread out that you do become overwhelmed. And then you just like, where, where was that Pete? Where did I receive that? What did you send that to me on? And it, it's just becomes noise and you just, you just want to stop, you know. So we have an acronym again in aviation, NITS, which is nature, intent, time and special circumstances. In aviation that would look like, you know, and, and we would actually say to the cabin crew, come in for a NITS briefing. So they knew as soon as they came into the flight deck, they were going to get information in a certain format, which meant that it needed to be acted on in a certain way. So they would come in and, and for example, I might say, okay, we have had an engine failure on the left hand side, which is the captain's side of the aeroplane. We're going to turn around and land back in Sydney. It's going to take me 20 minutes and I will then do the double ding for you to be seated. And when we land, there's going to be a fire engine following us back to the, to the bay just as a precaution. And then they repeat that back to ensure, so I can ensure they've understood and the pertinent points of information are there. Now, if we can, we can actually communicate like that even in business and to our spouses and friends, et cetera, if there's something that needs to cut through that noise of all the WhatsApp and zoom and iMessage and everything, if we could say something like, look, I really need you to hear this or this is, this is important, this one and do it in that format of, you know, I'm feeling this, this is what I'm thinking of doing. I'm going to do it within this time and there may be this and this. It's, it's such an easy way to one convey it because you, you know, sometimes it's hard to actually say what you, you feel or you want to get across and then to be able to listen because so many times we don't listen with the intent to understand, we listen with the intent to, to answer. So set in that sort of format, you can take in the information that they, they need you to hear. But there still seems to be a problem in business with certain generations anyway, where they don't respond and you can say, yes, please respond to me. And then there's still the radio silence. And it's like, is my daughter does that? It is so massively frustrating. It is. Response, say something. Yeah, it's like, are you out there? There was actually a study done that I want to say the gen venals and even millennials, three out of five of them don't like to use business email. So they ignore it. Wow. Yeah. And I think part of it too, if they respond, they're afraid of maybe being wrong. And like you say, the greatest risk isn't being wrong. It's not deciding. So that's a lack of decisiveness when you have communication paralysis and you just ignore someone and nothing goes anywhere. Yeah. There's, I can definitely like, that is frustrating. And yes, I have a teenage daughter. You also does that to me. But I suppose the way I was getting extremely frustrated and I realized it was my expectation that was the problem. So I'm used to people responding, which is I would consider, would call consideration and, and being, you know, the opposite of rude. Whereas, yeah, they are not even to each other. They do not, if they see it as red on their messaging, but they're not responded to that in itself is an answer. So if that, if it's gone unread, you know, it doesn't have the two blue ticks, then they haven't seen it. So they, they don't worry about it. Whereas if it's been read, it's got the two blue ticks. They, they're like, oh, okay. Well, obviously they don't agree. And they have their own narrative in their head, what that means. And then they, you know, communicate next based on that. Okay. So that wouldn't work in business, though. No, no. And, and I can understand the frustration. Potentially they're, well, you know, rules, especially with the other generations coming through their resistance, not resistance to rules, but lack of, how I suppose looking at it with, with my kids is that it's, they're looking at it a different way and they don't, they, they're more up to challenging. So my kids and my daughter, especially saying, mom, you know, when the career advisor told you, you couldn't, because of that stupid reason, then why didn't you say something? It, it wasn't considered appropriate or respectful to do that in my generation. And I'm loving the fact that my kids do feel comfortable pushing back. And I wish I had had that for myself when I was younger, but yeah. So I suppose that that, and if, if like, again, my daughter has said that doesn't deserve an answer. When you're working for someone though, I don't think you can say that to your boss. No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. All right. But then to businesses, I'm, I'm wondering, do businesses need to change their style of communication rather than how it used to be? Maybe, because what you talk about, you know, leader struggle with atmospheric turbulence, which is an aviation term, but it makes sense. It means that when circles decisions delayed while waiting for perfect data, unclear ownership. If you don't communicate, you don't have any of that defined. No, that's right. And that's why there needs to be parameters. So again, making the decision. So part of the decision making, you can only make whatever decision you make at the time has to be a good one based on the information you have in the time that you have it. So if you're not getting information from your coworkers, you can only base your decision on the information you have. So therefore, if it's a team and if it turns out to be not the best decision, the person who owns that decision is generally the upline manager. So that, that manager needs to or leader needs to, to then make the decision. Well, am I going to own this myself as in do all of the research myself? Or can I rely on my team? And if they can't rely on their team, then does the team change? Stay tuned for more of Women Road Warriors coming up. Now at 888-557-4020 or go to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free consultation and get your life back. Learn more at truckingmovesamerica.com Welcome back to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson at Cathy Takarro. We're talking with Michelle Huntington, a former airline captain who spent more than two decades leading crews and making high stakes decisions where the margin for error was incredibly small. What strikes us about Michelle's story is that she wasn't just flying airplanes. She was constantly evaluating risk, adapting to changing conditions and making important decisions with incomplete information. Those are challenges that sound remarkably familiar to anyone leading a business, managing a team or navigating a major life transition. We all have to do this. Today, Michelle helps organizations and individuals bring the same level of focus, discipline and clarity to the boardroom or in life that pilots rely on in the cockpit. Some of that's really tied to good communication too. Michelle, there's a lot of evolution that I think that's going on in business today. And I think what the consumers finding is a big frustration with the lack of communication and customer service and everything else you get stuck in queue. And would you say that that's part of what's happening there? Because I think that's a big business interrupt because you've got one person who doesn't want to make a decision, so then they just don't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're becoming so PC. When we're not seeing it as much in Australia, people do tend to speak their opinion and do it without the smile. We call them Karen's view Australia. And I know has them Karen. So they're the ones who complain to the manager and are quite boisterous about it, maybe filming as they do it. And there's nothing against Karen because I have a lovely couple of friends named Karen and they're not like this. But again, I think it's that there was a stage when we were beginning, especially after COVID, when there were not so many people who were in the service industry available. So we were putting up with less than stellar customer service and waiting times, etc. We were all like, yeah, we understand, we understand. Now, it's six years on and people aren't putting up with it anymore. We're like, no, that is not consideration. That is not respectful. That is not good manners. That is not service as such. We do not have in Australia, we don't have tipping as a typical because we have a minimum wage that we have to pay people, service people, etc. So tipping is not the same as in America where it's expected. You tip here if it's like absolutely stellar customer service because it's generally not. You get the standard service no matter what. And people won't put up for it. They will ask for the manager. That's what a Karen does, asks for the manager all the time if they're not happy with something. So I'm kind of going around in circles here to answer your question. It's, I think the, I recommended this to, which is, which is sad that I had to say this, but I recommended to a school group a couple of weeks ago. The expectation on them and their generation is that they underperform a lazy or apathetic and won't do anything above and beyond the minimum required. So therefore, if they did perform just a little bit, you know, above that, that they're seen as being amazing, fantastic employees. So therefore the normal things that you do at home, you know, you're respectful to your parents, you clean your room, you wash the dishes, even those that have jobs at Mackers and things, you know, they turn up, they're committed, even sporting teams, those sorts of things will just, I don't know, it helps maintain societal respect, communication. I don't know. I think getting out into community being part of society is going to help us maintain some sort of communication standard, whereas the isolating in the room, only texting, only writing shorthand messages online is where the communication breakdown is going to continue to happen. And that's what I think we're seeing worldwide. And I see it in the United States certainly, people are glued to their phones and they're not even looking at each other and they're not communicating. And then when you text somebody, it's like, hi, could you look at me please? You know, communication is really an important part of business. And I think that that's where maybe we're falling short. I know that you talk about making decisions and you teach people how to make decisions when information's incomplete and eliminate hesitation and decision delay. So I mean, this is the kind of message I think that you could teach worldwide to everybody, not just business. I think that we need to learn. We've got some remedial training that's necessary. Even here at work in a completely different job, miscommunication or no communication is the biggest problem when incidents occur or when whatever, it's because it wasn't communicated properly through the ranks. And it's a big thing and it's constantly needing to be addressed. And I really love that you're forte is about communication because it's so important. It's so basic, you think, right? If you need something, if you see something, say something. We have a thing of no blame culture in aviation. So that is that, you know, James Reason, who recently passed away, he had the Swiss cheese model. And it was, it's no one thing that leads to the incident or the accident. It's a chain of things where all the holes line up. And we learned, I don't know if you've ever watched, they used to be called Black Box series or the Air Crash Investigations. Greg Firth was, you know, an idol in the aviation world with his big hair. He was a NTSB investigator. But we studied as part to get our pilot's license, air transport pilot's license, those air crash investigations. So all of the things that went wrong because they were reported, hopefully the ones that there was no loss of life, but even including the ones of loss of life there, we learned from others' mistakes. And quite often it's a human thing that was the problem, not a mechanical thing. And even how we handle it, and I'm imagining it again in the heavy machinery world, and in mining, you know, safety is a number one thing because there is loss of my, and also loss of, you know, millions of dollars of machinery if one rolled over. That's a huge loss. Oh my God. Was it, and just two years ago, there was a haul truck that was going up a ramp and it was foggy, and there was a new driver with a trainer and the haul truck behind him. And the haul truck in front stopped because he couldn't see while the fog was so thick that the truck behind him didn't see it and ran right into the dovetail and both the trainer and the driver were killed. Yeah. Just like, and so what happened, what happened up to that? Was there a procedure then? Oh, there's a big safety, of course, the whole incident investigation and stuff. And then it's all about, you know, keeping your, you're supposed to be keeping, especially in bad weather. Normally it'd be three truck lengths distance between the trucks, but in bad weather you do six truck lengths, and then you slow down a gear and you lock it. You know, there's all these procedures that you need to do, but for whatever reason, it wasn't followed. And a lot of the time is getting back to communication. In many of the incidents that have happened here on site, people were on two different channels. So they were trying to communicate, but not on the same channel. So then an incident occurred, right? The, I think one of the important things, especially for leaders and even the leader of the home, you know, parents to their kids is owning up when they stuff up. So it's that if you can say, look, when I was, you know, and I sound like, I thought I'll never sound like my parents. And I say to my kids, when I was young, you know, about the mistakes and the stupid things I did and thankfully survived, but you tell the story and even in business, you know, that if you've got a CEO who admits to stuffing up earlier in their career, they become one more human, more approachable and people can see in themselves, yeah, I've done that or I've thought about doing that. And they're, they may be more connected, so more willing to community. Nice show. And I think you mentioned earlier about how people are worried about being seen as being wrong and they, they do have that hesitation because they don't want to come across as, as being either wrong or silly, you know, maybe imposter syndrome. I shouldn't be here. So if I stay quiet, no one will know that I'm not meant to be here. So I think it's more prevalent today than it used to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With all the LinkedIn's and, you know, I'm this and I'm that and glorifying what they do. It is hard. We're willing to social media where everything's perfect with it. In fact, it's not. And so what you're teaching people is to be more human and media how to make those decisions. It's important because I do think that a lot of people are afraid to make decisions and they sometimes have to just trust what, trust their gut because you teach people how to make decisions when information is incomplete. How do we do all of that? Because somebody has to take the bull by the horns, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it will look. Part of the thing is, is what am I actually deciding? What am I making a decision on? Because if we're getting, depending on where it is, and it's always, it's never when you're sitting at your desk, having had a cup of coffee and eight hours sleep and, you know, ready to face the world. It's usually when you've got five things on the boil and someone else has come in and then you've got a call that from the kids school that they're in sickbay and so forth that you have to make a decision. So it's that thing of what am I actually, what's the decision that I need to make rather than just grabbing at things and then looking at the facts. So you mentioned about text messages. You know, I hate text messages because whatever mood or emotion, you know, you're in at the time is how you read the message. So if you're coming at it and you've had a couple of wines and you're, you know, feeling all loved up and someone sends a message, you're like, oh yeah. Whereas if you're angry or something's happened, you know, you've just lost a job or you, and then you read that same text message, it comes across very differently. So it's the, you know, having to one work out what it is that you're actually deciding on. Is it not the big thing or is it little, many little decisions along the way? And then look at the actual facts, not what you're feeling emotionally, but the actual facts. And without bias. So, you know, I'm a woman. So are they, are they saying this because I am a woman or is it, they're just saying this. And then look at what options, you know, do I actually have options or am I coming at it again thinking it's only this that I have to decide on. It's a yes or no when really there are possible other ways of going about this and other things that I could ask, even though it hasn't been suggested to me. And then look at the risks and the benefits. But then the hardest thing, committing to a decision, if you can't commit to a decision, you don't have enough facts. Then you either seek the facts, but if no more information is coming in, go off that. Sometimes may, like you said, the, you know, the gut feeling, if you make like a head or tail, you know, you flip a coin, if you get that horrible feeling in your tummy, if you've got heads, then you know your decision was actually tails. Stay tuned for more of women road warriors coming up. Industry movement, trucking moves America forward is telling the story of the industry. Our safety champions, the women of trucking, independent contractors, the next generation of truckers and more help us promote the best of our industry. Share your story and what you love about trucking. Share images of a moment you're proud of and join us on social media. Learn more at truckingmuseamerica.com. Welcome back to women road warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Takarov. Our guest is Michelle Huntington, one of fewer than 500 female airline captains worldwide, whose career was built on making sound decisions in environments where conditions could change in an instant. Michelle learned early that waiting for certainty isn't always an option. In aviation, leaders must assess the information they have, communicate clearly, and take action before hesitation creates bigger problems. It's a lesson that applies just as much in today's workplaces as it does at 30,000 feet. Now a keynote speaker, author, and corporate trainer, Michelle helps leaders cut through confusion, overcome decision paralysis, and find calm in the middle of chaos. Michelle, as your press kit says, when pressure rises, hesitation shows up in familiar ways. Decisions get delayed waiting for more data. Meetings can go in circles, you've got unclear ownership of the critical calls that have to be made. And you're teaching people how to do this. Now obviously this is a very logical way of doing things. Humans are not always logical, they tend to be more optional. And I think if they have imposter syndrome or if they have maybe not enough information, it's going to be more emotional. Yes, yes. And look, when I was flying, it's definitely that case. And it took me a little while. You know, you've got to make the decision. So when the flight deck door closed, the cockpit door closed, I had to just take on that, that role of the front two seats were my office. I couldn't really think about the 200 people behind me. Because if I did, my decision making would become clouded, because I'm thinking of all of those lovely people behind me. Whereas I had to really turn into a robot and think about just myself and the person sitting next to me. And by default, the people behind me would arrive safely as well. But it was, you know, if you've got one person who's having a heart attack on board, the human in me would do anything I could to save that person. But the pilot in me has to consider the other 186 people with that person and look at the safest option for the group rather than that one person. And it's almost the same when you are making decisions, especially if emotions are heightened, you really need to practice. And that's where doing like we do in a simulator, a gamification, gaming it out, practicing that, you know, when you're sitting at home comfortably or in the office comfortably, going through scenarios of worst case and how you would actually make a decision. And it's putting in that little bit of work. So I have a question. So speaking about making decisions like that, those split second decisions and not being emotional about it, I work in all kinds of horrible, unbelievable weather in the worst conditions you can imagine driving the biggest equipment in the world. And these things, they don't necessarily run the way you want them to down a slippery slope. I mean, these big tires, even though they're 14 feet tall, they don't have traction. So one little piece of ice and you're slipping and sliding, you got to respond safely and instinctively and not to lose control of this truck, right? Because it's so big. So have you had an instance where, you know, you've had like a near miss or a close call or something happened in weather or where your instincts just kick in and you're, I was gonna say, go on autopilot, no pun intended, but you know what I mean, right? Because I've had a few where I'm like, holy smokes. I can't even believe I reacted that fast and I managed to save the truck, right? Fantastic. There's, yes, I have quite a few and it is, when I was learning to fly, I saw other more experienced pilots and it just, the aircraft seemed to be an extension of their body. They just had done the hours where they could react on instinct, like you said. And I got to that stage where it was, well, is it 10,000 hours to become a master of something? And it's where, you know, you, all of that training, it does kick in. I got, my aircraft was struck by lightning. I was flying my massage in a small 10 seater and, you know, it spiked the electrics. They went out, I lost my radios and things and I was in cloud. However, I trained, I knew where I was. I knew, you know, the attitude of the aircraft. I knew the instruments where they should be, the power settings and things. And I was over a mountain range, which in Australia, our mountains aren't very high, but 10,000 feet would keep me clear. And I just knew, like I knew, because I'd done the reps enough, how to, how to fly the plane in cloud, how to, you know, where to start descending safely. So I wouldn't go into the hill where I needed to be air traffic control wise, etc. And so, and even, I saw a former colleague a couple of days ago when I landed here in Brisbane and he reminded me, we were talking about my book and he said, I bought the book because I wanted to see if I made the cut. And, and he reminded me about one of the trips we flew to Bali and we landed and there'd been a rainstorm come through and we aqua plane. So we were skidding down the runway at Bali and I loaded 77 and, you know, it was just that thing of breaking and, and, and dump the flaps to, to really break contact with that water and that was on the surface. And this is stuff they don't teach you, but it's knowing, like you said, you know, that, that gut instinct and just knowing what to do. And it's, it's again, all the training, all the times that you've made mistakes, done the reps. And, and you know, the mistakes in the, the, you make a decision, it's the wrong decision. You're like, if you survive, you go, okay, I won't do that one again. Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing, right? Yes. And as you can use the aircraft again, it's even better. So Michelle, what you're, what you're teaching essentially is decision clarity and calm under chaos. That's what you talk about a lot. So practicing is something that, yeah, it is people need to do and it has to be muscle memory. And that way you're going to be less hesitant to make decisions when you're under pressure and you're going to have more confidence. So I mean, you're, you're, you're instilling a lot of things in people. Do you have a place where people can consult with you on your website and all of that to learn some of these skills? You said you had a podcast too. Yeah, yeah. So we have a podcast, Captain and the Clown, my husband and I. So he's the clown on the captain. He used to be a circus clown in, when he was at school. But we, we talk about all sorts of stuff. We don't limit ourselves at all. But we also, I'd love for people to reach out on LinkedIn, my website, on Instagram. I'm, I have to admit, I'm not terribly great at posting on Instagram and all of those. I'm, I'm a voyeur. I watch other people. I don't really post on there, but I love speaking to people. And my thing is to have coffee chats either in person or virtually. I love hearing for like hearing other people's experiences and just things that are people of where they've gone wrong and they've learned something and they were able to then, you know, admit it one to themselves, but to other people. And you just see, they're, they're almost proud of their, their failures. It's because growing up, you know, you're told not to fail and, and to be the best. And if you fail, you won't get into this university or this job, et cetera. But they've all said because of that failure and some of its, you know, divorces, it's actually led them to a better place and a better decision down the track. And, and yeah, I love, love chatting to people. So anyway possible, carry a pigeon if they want to. I like that. So, so I mean, we've just kind of scratched the surface here, but basically you're helping people think differently, unlock better decisions in complex environments. And that really applies anywhere, not just in business. People have better decision clarity. They have calm under chaos. There's so much chaos today. That's something that is definitely everyone can learn and be able to communicate clearly when the stakes are high. All of these things are great messages. Where do people find you? On my website, Michelle Huntington.com, LinkedIn, Captain in the Clown podcast, Instagram, or they can just give me a call. I love this. You bring so much to the table and certainly you come from experience. I mean, you've been up 35,000 feet having to do this kind of stuff where you can't hesitate. Thanks, Shelley. I really appreciate every experience I've had, even though at the time it may have seemed hard. It has really given me experience that I can use on the ground as well. Giving you wings. It's giving, or is the song, the wind beneath my wings, sorry? Yeah. Yes. I think you're giving a perspective that's really valuable. Everyone can learn from. Maybe it will make things go more smoothly. We won't have the turbulence in society, wouldn't we? I love your analogy, say, show it. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you. We'd love to have you back. Talk about some specific topics. I think that your insight is really valuable. Thanks, Shelley. Thanks, Kathy. I'm inspired and in awe of both of you. I'd love to have a go of your machinery, Kathy. Yeah, no kidding. I know. It's a blast. You love it. Thank you, Michelle. This has been wonderful. Thanks, Shelley. Thanks, Kathy. I've really enjoyed speaking with you. If you're getting value from our show, Women Road Warriors, be sure to hit follow on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss out on what's coming next. We hope you've enjoyed this latest episode. And if you want to hear more episodes of Women Road Warriors or learn more about our show, be sure to check out womenroadwarriors.com. And please follow us on social media. And don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. On our website, we also have a selection of podcasts just for women. There are a series of podcasts from different podcasters. So if you're in the mood for women's podcasts, just click the Power Network tab on womenroadwarriors.com. You'll have a variety of shows to listen to anytime you want to. Podcasts made for women. Women Road Warriors is on all the major podcast channels like Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Audible, YouTube, and others. Check us out. And please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Takaro. If you want to be a guest on the show or have a topic or feedback, email us at sjohnson at womenroadwarriors.com.