13: Trump Is Getting Scared About the Midterms

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It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Hi, everyone. 2026 has already been relentless. But for those of you looking for signs of hope in the darkness, searching for a bulwark against creeping fascism, look no further than Texas. As in Texas. Over the weekend, Taylor Remitt, a Democrat, won a special election for the Texas State Senate by 14 points. In 2024, Donald Trump carried the same district by 17 points. If you're doing the math, that is a 31-point swing. And this wasn't some ho-hum, low-key race. President Trump enthusiastically endorsed the Republican candidate, Lee Wamsgans, truthing just a day before the election. The radical left Democrats are spending a fortune to defeat a true MAGA warrior, Lee Wamsgans. You can win this election for Lee, who has my complete and total endorsement. This, of course, is what Trump said after Wamsgans lost. What is your reaction to that? I don't know. I didn't hear about it. Somebody ran where? In Texas, a special election for a legislative state. The ninth state Senate seat. I'm not involved in that. That's a local Texas race. Lee Wamskamp, isn't that a character on secession? With friends like these. Okay, so Texas has everyone asking what this may signal for the very important election that is coming up in November, the midterms. Everyone, including Donald Trump, who has every intention not to lose his vice grip on power this year or any other year. And we know this for certain because earlier this week, Trump appeared on his former underling Dan Bongino's podcast and said Republicans should nationalize elections. The Republicans should say, we want to take over. We should take over the voting in at least many, 15 places. The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting. Cool. James Madison is literally rolling over in his grave. As part of his onslaught against federalism and free and fair elections, Trump has explicitly menaced states that refuse to participate in voter intimidation and suppression. Last month, his attorney general, Pam Bondi, tried to extort the state of Minnesota for its voter rolls using ICE goons as leverage. And last week, the FBI raided a Fulton County election site in the swing state of Georgia. The feds took nearly 700 boxes of original 2020 election documents, including ballots. Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard personally oversaw the raid and then put Trump on speakerphone with the FBI agents involved in it for what might best be described as a dictator's pep rally. So, yes, while that special election in Texas is a very real sign of coming rejection for Donald Trump and MAGA, what happens if Trump tries to break up with democracy first? I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway Country, we're going to get into Trump's latest insane attempts to trash democracy and talk to someone who is on the front lines of the battle. Marvin Arrington serves on the Fulton County Board of Commissioners for District 5 in Georgia. That elections office pillaged by Tulsi Gabbard and her henchmen? It is in his district. And Marvin Arrington is not going quietly into this good night. On Wednesday, the Fulton County Board of Commissioners filed a motion challenging the FBI raid and its confiscation of Georgia voting information. If successful, this could force the return of all that Georgia property. But even then, it might be too late. Even if a judge orders them to return all of the ballots, we won't know if they returned them all or not because the chain of custody has been broken. After this, to put all of it into context, I'm going to be chatting with Fajshakir, the founder of the progressive media site More Perfect Union, the former national political director of the ACLU, and a longtime advisor to Senator Bernie Sanders. For 2026, I'm feeling quite bullish and needless to say all the things nationalizing elections, ballot tampering and fear and terror. We're eyes wide open here. Like, we're not fools, but we are projecting a sense of strength. I don't want to live in the place of cowering in fear. Baz and I will talk about how all these pieces, Texas, Georgia, Minnesota, fit together and what it tells us about where we're headed. If the president is hell-bent on undermining democracy in its most basic form, what can we do about it? That is coming up. But first, my conversation with someone who is doing something about it, Fulton County Commissioner Marvin Arrington. Marvin Arrington, Commissioner of District 5 of the Fulton County Board of Commissioners in Georgia, a man at the center of this story. Thank you so much for joining Runaway Country. So glad to be here. Thank you for having me, Alex. It's a pleasure. We're here fighting for the people of Fulton County and frankly, for all Americans. Yeah. I remember where I was when I heard that the FBI was effectively raiding Fulton County for its voter information, but how did you find out that the FBI had come to town and was using a search warrant to come and get ballots from the 2020 election? So my day job, I'm an attorney. I was in Zoom court and I got five or six calls from three or four different state representatives letting me know what was going on. And I had to finish my Zoom court appearance, but I called them back and immediately rushed over because the elections hub is Fulton elections hub is in my district in Union City. And so I wanted to make sure to be there to find out what was going on firsthand. So what happened when you got to the scene? So when I got to the scene, they were already there and they had already served the search warrant, the clerk of Superior Court was there. Apparently, the first search warrant was made out to the Board of Registration and Elections or either just to our Fulton Elections Department. But because these records were in archives, the archives are held by the clerk of Superior Court. So they had to redo the warrant. They had to go back and get another warrant because the warrant that they had was legally insufficient because it was served on the wrong party. And so we were waiting around, I guess, for them to get another order. And I was calling around to different attorneys and speaking with the county attorney who basically said that there wasn't much that we could do but just comply at this point. And certainly I was not satisfied with that answer. My charge to her was to we need to do any and everything that we can. Right. And so I'm a criminal defense attorney as well. So I call some other criminal defense attorneys that do a lot of federal work to find out what we could do. Did not get, I guess, the information that we needed in a timely fashion. But later that night, I learned that we needed to file a rule 41 G motion in order to attack the motion to try to limit the motion, prevent them from leaving the state with the ballots, which unfortunately they've already left the state with the ballots. Right. And they've broken the chain of custody. most important is the breaking chain of custody, right? The 41G motion would allow us to ask for a forensic accounting, but frankly, that would have had to have been done at the same time as part of the transfer because otherwise there would have been, you know, that's why we now have a breaking chain of custody. Even if a judge orders them to return all of the ballots, We won't know if they returned them all or not because the chain of custody has been broken. And frankly, it's a bad way for him to try to prove that he won the election because if he wanted to prove it, he would want to maintain the chain of custody in order to make that claim. Oh, Commissioner Arrington, you are giving him the benefit of the doubt that the facts and the truth, like Matt, and having a true investigation is even something that he sets out to do in any of this stuff. Right. So you're scrambling, basically. You guys are like, this is happening. There's police body cam that shows there's some back and forth around that search warrant. They have to go back. They get the proper search warrant. They come in. How many records are we talking about? like how many boxes, how long does it take them to get the stuff out of the, out of the, wherever it was stored? So my understanding was that it was, and I don't want to get it wrong. It was either 700 pallets or 700 boxes of information. And those were the originals that they took, right? The originals. And I think we have backups of the original ballots, but I don't know that we have, we have digital copies of the original ballots, But I don't know that we have digital copies of the absentee ballots, nor do we have digital copies of the provisional ballots. Right. And so what he did was, frankly, create an opportunity for him to find the 11000 votes he's been looking for since 2020. But if he was really interested in fraud, Alex, he would have we've held 17 elections since the 2020 election. He didn't lose any of those, though. Well, if he right, he didn't lose any of those. Who's any of those, so therefore he's not interested. You're right, because if Fulton County is this hotbed of fraud and it's happening all over, why would it only happen in the one election that he lost, right? Why wouldn't it happen in any of the other elections? You're asking good questions. I got to say, though, it sounds like there was a previous ruling in a civil case that entitled the feds to, I believe it was, copies of the voter records, right? But they went for the originals, which seems like a very meaningful difference. Well, and I don't think there was actually a full ruling. Judge McBurney indicated that he would make the records available to them, but no one had asked. And I think there's a court hearing coming up perhaps this Friday or next Friday where they could have made that ask. But in order for them to get those copies, my understanding is it would have cost them approximately $450,000 to make those copies. And so that is likely the reason that they circumvented that process. And my other understanding is also a federal case filed in the Northern District of Georgia before Judge Thrash against Shea Alexander, our clerk of Superior Court. And I think they served a subpoena out of that case. And that is under review. And so I don't imagine that Judge Thrash will be happy that they basically circumvented his authority and his discretion. And by doing this end around, uh, to just go grab all the records. Well, yeah. And I would assume it's not that useful to their case to have copies if someone else retains the originals, the hard copies, right? I mean, what's your level of concern? You talk about the chain of custody. For the laymen, it's just the feds have these records. Nobody has eyes on them. No, no. I mean, there was a day in which the feds were impartial. But this is very much it feels like a political strategy that Trump is executing on to prove once and for all that there's been fraud in the 2020 election in Georgia. and given that, I mean, are you worried that the records are being tampered with? And like, how is anyone going to know? It's not like you guys are going to sit there and comb through seven. I guess they'll probably show some evidence at the end of all of this and one can check whatever they're alleging against whatever information you guys still have on hand. But what's your level of alarm? What's your level of panic as you see these 700 pallets being walked out the door? The chain of custody is broken. You guys are going to go to court over this and you have. But just as someone who's a steward of these elections, how worried are you? Well, frankly, I'm very worried, right? This is a code red. This is, you know, a full frontal attack on our democracy. This, you know, they are sowing seeds of distrust into the election process. And the sacred trust between the voters and the election process is very fragile. and we have had free and fair elections in Fulton County and in the state of Georgia. As you know, we had three recounts, two automatic and one manual. We had an independent audit by the Republican-led State Board of Elections and the Republican Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, as well as our Republican Governor, Brian Kemp, both certified that the elections in Fulton County and in Georgia were free and fair. And so this is, you know, just an attempt, like you say, by this administration to prove something that didn't happen. And, you know, he lost the election in Fulton County in 2020 by 240,000 votes. That's a lot of fraud he's going to have to find. Yes. Joe Biden got 73% and he got 26% of the vote in Fulton County. And so, you know, I don't know how or why he wants to attempt to try to rewrite history, but he's already been reelected. We had an election in 2024 and he was. He's president. Right. I want to get to the sort of end game in a second, but just to go back to what transpired, because it's so unusual. The next day, the president gets on a speakerphone call, according to a reporting from The New York Times. He's talking to Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence, who's down there for this raid. We'll talk about that, too. And he gets on the phone with the FBI agents who were tasked with grabbing these records. And the New York Times describes that conversation as, quote, the kind of conversation you'd have at a pep rally or a coach giving an encouraging halftime speech to his players. What's your response to that? What do you make of that? um you know i i'm frankly at a loss right because the only thing that the records from fulton county will show is that he lost the election in fulton county and even if he won even if he were to somehow uh won fulton county or which that wouldn't have happened but even if he were to say he found 11 000 votes to win the state of georgia that still would not have been the difference, it still would not have made him the president. It would not have changed the outcome of the overall election, right? It wouldn't change the electoral college vote. Does it concern you that maybe this isn't actually backward-facing but forward-facing, that this isn't really about 2020 and Trump's ego, but maybe about casting doubt on the integrity of Georgia elections in advance of 2026 when there's a couple high stakes, you know, Georgia always matters. John Ossoff is up. There's a key Senate race. It's a swing state or 2028 when another Republican is going to be at the top of the ticket. But nonetheless, you know, Trump has a lot of thoughts about why his movement should remain in power And he has a lot of thoughts about why Democrats regaining at least the lower chamber if not both chambers of Congress could be problematic for him I mean are you worried that the endgame here is to tamper with upcoming elections as opposed to revisit settled history about past elections? Absolutely, right? Worried about our state Republican takeover of Fulton County elections, and now from what we've heard from the president, he wants to nationalize the elections, but only wants to do it in 15 cities or 15 states, which, again, is further troubling. But yes, I mean, I think this is a move to intimidate voters, right, and to bully voters and or if nothing else to make voters say, oh, well, it's not going to matter. It may increase voter apathy, right? We've got enough voter apathy as it is. But I mean, imagine this type of talk could just make someone sit out because they think he's going to rig the election, right? And he feeds into that by thinking that Fulton County employees are rigging the election. Our employees work hard. Those elections employees work long hours into the night counting ballots. I believe that they operate with integrity, and no one has shown me anything otherwise. One thing that struck me, I covered a lot of the election in Georgia in 2020, And one thing that struck out to me, both ahead of the election and in the aftermath, especially as Trump demanded recounts and there were numerous allegations of fraud, is how bipartisan the movement was to stop Trump and how bipartisan the response to these allegations was. Right. You talk about Brad Raffensperger and Brian Kemp, Jeff Duncan, who lieutenant governor. I mean, dyed in the wool conservatives were like, back up. This is not this is not an issue. Voter fraud is not an issue. We run free and fair elections in Georgia. In the aftermath of the FBI coming in and seizing the ballots and voter rolls from 2020, what's been the response? Like not just among Democrats, but among independents and Republicans that, you know, as this is going down. And Trump once again tries to relitigate how badly Georgia runs elections. Well, unfortunately, I have not heard any response from our governor nor from our secretary of state. But that just further proves your point of affecting upcoming elections. Right. The secretary of state is now running for governor and him coming to the support of Fulton County at this juncture as he runs for Republican primary. probably does not help his chances in that race. And so although, you know, he had integrity and I'm happy that he stood up to Trump at that time, you know, I don't know that, you know, he's in the same position that he is now where he can actually have that same voice and speak out in the same way. Certainly I wish that he and or our governor would speak up and speak out. Brian Kemp stood up to him and he challenged Brian, I had someone challenge Brian Kemp in the next election and Brian Kemp won. Right. And so, you know, and Brian Kemp's going out. This is his last term. So he's got nothing to lose. I wish that we would hear from him and I hope that he that we will hear from him. There's other stuff. There's other chicanery that's happening in the state, independent of this very public display. Uh, there's the justice department, uh, filed a lawsuit in district court against Brad Raffensperger related to voter registration that the DOJ wanted that Raffensperger said, we have to redact that information. You can't legally in Georgia, uh, share voters birthdays or their driver's license numbers and social security numbers. And the DOJ was like, we want it all. And then also I believe county commissioners, you can probably speak to this, defied a judge's order and were threatened with jail time and a $10,000 a day fine for refusing to appoint nominees to the Fulton County Elections Board who were election deniers, one of whom had ties to Cleta Mitchell and refused to certify the results of 2024 primary. And another had challenged the voter registrations of thousands of Georgia residents. I mean, what is it like to be at the center of these unending onslaughts from this administration? I mean, what is the mood as you're trying to protect democracy? Well, we just have to keep reminding the residents of Fulton County that we're here to protect them and their rights and their personal information, right? The nomination and appointment process for the elections board is that order was really crazy because no judge can tell me how to vote. I vote my conscience, right? And in fact, They can't even make me attend the meeting. I actually missed one of those meetings because I was in the hospital having a procedure. Right. But but he can't compel me to even attend the meeting, let alone tell me how to vote at that meeting. And the judge acknowledged that. But the appointment and nomination process goes all the way back to Marbury versus Madison. Right. This is not something new. Fulton County didn't create the nomination and appointment process. The parties each nominate and the county commission, which is the governing authority, is the appointing authority that shall make the appointments. And so, you know, the idea that we have to just accept their nomination, there would be no reason for us to make the appointments. The parties could just make the appointments themselves. Well, maybe they want to do that. I mean, all of it seems so just decidedly undemocratic. And then there's just the drudgery of having to be, I mean, I wonder what it's like to be in the middle of all of this and the degree to which you have seen evidence of new reporting in Politico that we have that I think in the years since 2020, roughly 50% of top local election officials from across 11 now Western states, which is not Georgia, but still, they've left their jobs. 50% of top local election officials in Western states since the 2020 election. I mean, are people just over it? Well, I think that's the worry, right? And we can't let people get over it. We have to continue the fight. We have to keep up the struggle because otherwise they just win, right? And we can't just lay down. We have to keep fighting and we have to keep pressure on them. you know, I went to Frederick Douglas High School and the first thing we had to learn was his poem from his speech that power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and it never will. Show me exactly how much injustice a people are quietly willing to submit to. And that is the exact amount of injustice that will be inflicted upon them. And it will continue until it is resisted by words or blows or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. And so it's never been more relevant than today. Preach, Frederick Douglass, preach. I mean, that's beautiful because I think what you get at is the other truth of all of this, is the more powers above us try and repress or suppress the vote or deny people their constitutional rights, the more people want to hold on to them. And I hope that a similar response happens in this next round, which is the more you try and assert that people are behaving unlawfully and curb their rights and curb transparency, the more it's going to throw the doors open. And, you know, hopefully good people who care about democracy triumph and are, you know, invigorated in the struggle because, man, It is real. Marvin Arrington, for everybody who's not watching on YouTube, you should because Marvin Arrington Jr. is wearing an extraordinary bow tie sitting next to an American flag and talking about defending democracy. And I have never been prouder to hear about what's happening in one of these United States. Thank you for just giving us some hope that good people are fighting the very, very important and good fight down in a key state as it concerns our democracy. I really appreciate your time, sir. Well, I'm happy to do it. Thank you, Alex, for having me. It's been a pleasure. After the break, I will put all of this into context with Democratic advisor and strategist, the great Faz Shakir. Runaway Country is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Runaway Country people, can you think back to a first date where you were really interested in someone? I can. When you start dating someone, you spend a while, maybe forever sizing them up, asking important questions like, what are you looking for? Or what are your deal breakers? What's your relationship like with your mom? Or your cat? Or your dog? It all helps you get a sense of whether this person is right for you. 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That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Runaway. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Runaway Country is brought to you by Helix. the last few weeks have been hellish and freezing on the East Coast. And honestly, I think most of the country. Only the threat of a full fascist takeover has been able to coax me outside. I mean, you know, priorities. Also parenting, the children, they've been able to get me outside. But through it all, I've been staying nice and cozy thanks to my new Helix mattress. I used to deal with a whole range of sleep issues, but now I'm all about bedtime. Helix offers a variety of mattresses designed to fit your sleep needs. Are you a soft mattress lover? A firm mattress lover? Well, Helix has a mattress for you. Not sure which Helix mattress will work best for you and your body and your sleep habits? Well, take the Helix Sleep Quiz. It matches you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences, making it easy to find a mattress that suits your sleep needs. Helix will deliver your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the U.S. They even offer a 120-night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. So go to helixsleep.com slash Alex for 27% off sitewide. This offer is exclusive to Runaway Country listeners. That's helixsleep.com slash Alex for 27% off sitewide. Make sure you enter our show name, Runaway Country, after checkout so they know we sent you. helixsleep.com slash Alex. It is such a pleasure to have you on this podcast, Fajshakir. Good to see you, Alex Wagner. People on the other side of this don't know that we had you waiting in different online studio waiting rooms and you've proven your mettle through, you know, we knew you were tenacious. Nothing can stop me from appearing on this wonderful podcast with you. And that's the can-do attitude we need here at Runaway Country. I want to ask you about the events of the last couple weeks in the context of where we're headed in November and whether our democracy, what number alarm bells should be ringing in terms of our democracy? Is it a three alarm bell situation, a four alarm bell situation? To recap, we have seen ICE raids used as leverage to force Minnesota to hand over its voter rolls to Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi. And then most recently, in the last several days, we've seen FBI raids on an elections office in Georgia to gain access to 700 ballots worth of material, including the ballots themselves from the 2020 election in Georgia. Both of those tactics seem like a pretty good strategy to fuck with people. You either scare the shit out of them so that they don't come and vote, or you cry foul once they do actually vote if they vote against you. What worries you most about what we've seen from the Trump administration recently? Well, the authoritarian mindset is that you have to cultivate fear within a populace. And authoritarians don't work unless you can terrorize the population and make sure people are sensing that they are insecure in their livelihoods. And Trump has obviously operated on this playbook from day one. And whether it's Minneapolis or Georgia or wherever it might be, they want to instill fear. And some of it is reality and some of it is perception. And the goal for us as a populist is are you cowed by fear or do you essentially mobilize against him? And to my mind, the story of his second term has been a fierce mobilization against him. People are not cowed or backing down. And that point to an authoritarian, Trump has a populist streak about him, which is actually a nice thing from my vantage point, in the sense that he wants people that he can command. Authoritarians want people behind them. They don't want to turn around and look over the shoulder and find that there's nobody there. and he's concerned when he even if they're there by force and well exactly however they're there they're there right as a populist that he needs people and he's concerned when if there aren't going to be people and you can sense on epstein and moments around minneapolis there's some fear in his part where he's like i think i might be losing the country i'm worried about he's not going to say those words but i think he has a sense of it and that's our job right now is right kind of constantly mobilize. I was talking to some people about the, you know, in the political science playbook, there's some theories and ideas that the way you confront authoritarianism is you get to a percentage of a mobilization of the masses and it could be three, five percent, whatever it might be. But at that point, it creates kind of a sense that the country can't be governed by my authoritarian tough, you know, iron hand, that I have to react to people. And I think this is this is the moment we're in, Alex, is whether whether there's a sense that there's a democratic revolt. And I'm optimistic on that score. Well, I guess so. I hear you on the sort of mass uprising in a case like Minnesota, even when it wasn't mass uprising, it was people taking the streets, getting murdered in the streets, but people nonetheless taking action themselves to say we will not stand for this. It feels like a trickier proposition, though, when you're talking about the machinery of voting democracy in elections, right? Like, how do people revolt when the FBI has a search warrant, it marches into an elections office, it takes the original copies of very sensitive voter information, the president calls for something like nationalizing elections, which is, first of all, not going to happen, I should say, but nonetheless would be a mechanism that would be executed. Doing something like that would require, I would assume, vast constitutional amendments and changing many different things about the way our bureaucracy works, but isn't something that would play out like in the streets the way ICE raids do, right? And I think where Trump holds a special dispensation is when he tinkers with the machinery of democracy that is less visible. And that's why the Georgia stuff, I mean, all of it's disturbing to me, right? The boot of fascists stomping through Minneapolis, which I saw firsthand, is one kind of terror. But bureaucratic kind of like norm shattering election chicanery is all equally terrifying and could be even more long lasting. So how do you yeah. How do you stoke outrage about that? So, well, one sense that he needs people to execute these orders, right? And certainly you're right that Tulsi Gabbard and others seemingly for now want to go along for the ride. A lot of others don't. So I think you do get a sense occasionally of people leaking from within, fighting, resigning, whatever the case might be in this term of Trump. There has been people in the machinery saying, I'm not going to generally go along for this ride. Also, the machinery is fought back. If you go back from the beginning, you know, the fights against universities and medias, there was a lot more caping going on at that period of time. And given where we were then and where we are now, there's far more, I see, spine on the sense of people with power, whether there are media, universities, wealthy people, lawyers, accountants, whatever the case might be, being more comfortable saying, hey, this administration is one I'm going to stand up to. whether we're fully there, obviously we're not, but there's more happening. And part of the reason the more is happening is because the sense of the people are on their side. If I'm going to go out and make this case, if I'm Jimmy Kimmel or if I'm Harvard University, whatever the case might be, I know behind me, I turn my shoulder around and there's way more people here than there are with you, Mr. Trump. And so that is still, I think, even in the machinery, Trump has always benefited from the idea that I'm going to push the line to the edges and over it, and I'm going to test the waters Let see how people react if I shoot off boats off the coast of Venezuela What will they do If I want to go after Greenland what will they do And sometimes he keeps rolling when he feels like oh there not sufficient pushback here Or in the case of Greenland, I'm going to retool. I'm going to pull back and I'm going to say, hey, there's a different plan and strategy or tariffs or whatever the case might be. You see him kind of basically recalibrate according to Democratic pushback to him. And so I just want to express like even in the machinery. And I remember this day, ACLU, when we'd show up with hundreds of people show up at the courtrooms and inside courtrooms, it had an effect on judges. It had an effect on lawyers. And it basically became the unwinding of family separation, which was in this first term. And I think it's still the case now that don't minimize democratic revolt. Yeah. And I will say the head, I believe, of the FBI field office in Atlanta or in Georgia resigned a week before the raid with no comment. Tulsi Gabbard, though, is still there. We'll talk about her role in all of this in a second. Before we spoke today, I spoke to Marvin Arrington, who represents, I think it's District 5 on the Board of County Commissioners. And he's involved in a lawsuit against the government trying to get the records returned. He is squarely in the crosshairs of this fight, right? He's really worried about the chain of custody with these voter rolls and these ballots, which is to say the feds have the originals. There are no copies, I believe, of the absentee votes and the provisional ballots. So God knows what Trump might find within those or whether he might find more of them. Do you allow yourself to conjure up the sort of worst case or most ludicrous scenario that might come from Trump in terms of lies about what happened in the 2020 election? Operative word you just said is lies, right? So the sense of the authoritarian playbook, one part we talked about already at the beginning, which was fear, instilling terrorizing fear in the population. The other part has to be coupled with a sense of a big lie, big lies as they were. If you're going to terrorize the population, you're also going to feed them nonsense to make them, to your point, fall in line behind you. And right now, we're in that period of many, many manufacturing of lies, and we know that where this is intending to go, we are not deceived, you are not deceived, I'm not deceived as to Trump wanting to rush back out and say, it was stolen from me in 2020, and maybe it will be stolen from me in the future again, and therefore these kinds of efforts are needed to prevent stealings of elections. The point that I would make is that, again, this is a democratic revolt of media and information ecosystems. You are doing a great job in your own sense, and I am confident and comfortable that a lot of the public at this point is less deceived than they've ever have been when Donald Trump rushes out to propagate bullshit. It has, there is far more. Why are you, can I just ask? First of all, I love that you're such a fucking optimist about this. Not always, in this case. I know, but it's really needed because I've been like stewing in like the dark night of conspiracy for the last several days. I'm like, here we go. You say you're comfortable and confident in the information ecosystem. Why? I guess, and I ask that because we now have, in addition to Fox News, which propagated 2020 election lies libelously. We have in the mix CBS, which is now owned by Trump lackeys, the Ellisons, and has proven not to be a fount of information and facts and could easily at least entertain both sides-ism as it concerns claims of election fraud. We have CNN potentially falling into the hands of a Trump ally. We have the Washington Post, which today announced it's laying off a third of its newspaper and is in the hands of Jeff Bezos, who has steered the paper directly in Trump's direction. And we have a splintering of institutional media, if not the outright atrophy of it. And I don't know, I'm all for the new media landscape being one of, you know, sort of a pioneering spirit and greater conversation and, you know, rigorous analysis. But I wonder if that's enough to counter co-opted mainstream institutional media that is intent on currying favor with this president. And despite all that, Trump is moving towards his lowest lows in the second term and maybe an entire two terms of his presidency. The public approval of him on any of his core things, economy, immigration, whatever the case might be, is also at its lows and going lower. There's more distrust of him as an individual than there has been, according to public polling again. And this is what the deck stacked, as you say, not just in the media ecosystem, but in the financial ecosystem. You see Trump, MAGA, world having hundreds of millions of dollars at their disposal for this upcoming election. Crypto, AIPAC, a whole bunch of other actors storing stockpiles of cash to play major roles. And what they know and what you and I know is that they're working upstream against the fact that most of this country is not buying what they're selling. And part of the reason is that, well, one is the reality hurts and bites and like, we have lived it. And thankfully, you know, on any of the major issues of Trump, people aren't just not deceived by it. He's, he, I don't, I, he is losing everyone but his core MAGA base. That is, you know, the 33% of the country, yes, he's at his 80, 90% approvals. And everybody else is moving off. And you see it with even Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly, where they even express some concerns about, you know, Megyn ways that they would never have deigned to do even a year ago or certainly four years ago. And part of it is there, the people in the ecosystem that are reacting to the public are finding that the public is moving away from the nonsense of Trump. Do you, you mentioned the reality, the lived reality of people in this country and they're not buying what he's selling. How should Democrats talk about these existential threats? Now we get to the heart of the problem or the issue, right? Because despite that Trump's, This is the question asked for the election is that, OK, if Trump is sinking like a rock, and I believe he is, would they is there still a world that you would vote for a Republican over a Democrat? Yeah. And the chances are, yes, because some of them are going to deceive or play a game, right? Many of them are going to start to distance themselves in ways from Trump and or message to populists on the ground in ways that are different from Donald Trump. So if he's pro-AI, if he's pro-oligarchs, you see a number of Republicans saying, I'm against data centers. And no, I actually stand with the American public. I think we should have no tax on tips, a very populist kinds of language that they'll use to try to win over people separate from his own agenda and the failings of Trump. The question for Democrats is what do you come forward with in an agenda in this moment that speaks to the pain and suffering of people who say, man, I don't believe anybody in government. I am so shattered in my belief in government. I feel like everything is – I'm cynical about everything. I think you were raising some of that concerns on your own end. It's like, you know, become cynical about everything. So the bar for a Democrat is much higher. And I think we're not owning it quite yet, although there's time and I'd like us to feel like this is existential here. The bar is that you have an unimpeachable integrity, that you are someone who rises above and says the government means something not only of my agenda but of me as an individual in character and in willingness to take on wealth and power on behalf of people. I think it's a recipe of Mamdani, of course. I think he continues to rise in popularity. I think he'll continue to go higher because all he's doing is embodying a sense of an integrity of government service. Finally, you came in, despite whatever misgivings I might have about whatever you are, whatever you might do, you can win me over by saying, well, my fundamental belief is that government should serve people. And here I am to try to execute that on a daily basis. And there aren't enough, I think, right now coming up with both agenda and integrity and affordability. Are those our new buzzwords? More of my conversation with Faz in just a second. But first, Pod Save America Only Friends. If you want more Pod Save America, and who doesn't, we got great news for you. A few weeks back, we launched OpenTabs, our PSA newsletter, and we just launched Pod Save America Only Friends, a new bi-weekly show featuring a rotating cast of John, John, Tommy, and Dan, plus other Crooked hosts like me occasionally. We're going to dig deeper into the news of the day. We're going to test out hot takes. We're going to chase tangents as we do. Think of it as another chance to get a news update from all of us. Why? Why subscribe to Friends of the Pod? Well, it helps Crooked reduce our dependence on tech platforms. Plus, you get a ton of free episodes, you get bonus pods, and you get a great community of fellow Crooked listeners across the country. So to unlock open tabs and OnlyFriends, subscribe to friendsofthepod at crooked.com slash friends. 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To put a finer point on it, I'm hearing you say that the Democrats' positioning needs to be around this just perverted economy that we have, right? Position is one thing, Alex. You're right. I mean, we can get to position, but even before that, are you molded by the influence of big money? Right. That's kind of a core question, right? Because we see in the president, he is the model of it. Like, literally, from the day he comes in, I'm transacting for money here. But you're talking about fundamentally economic, kind of an economic argument, whether it's being corrupted by the influence of big money or, you know, engaged in the fight against what is increasingly an oligarchy in the United States. but you're not talking about, and this sounds like a dumb question because I think we litigated this in 2024 and we know what happened, but as it concerns other existential threats to our society, like say trying to steal, pervert our system of democracy, the ballots in Fulton County, et cetera, it sounds like you're saying to me the integrity question needs to be framed in terms of economics and vulnerability to, I guess, big money adulteration rather than kind of the absurdity abstract argument about federalism. Wow, that sounds so sexy. I'm not actually, I'm not even sincerely, where's your abstract argument about federalism, Mr. Candidate? I'm not suggesting, you know what I mean? Like, it's so blatant what's happening. He wants to nationalize elections fast. Like, what the fuck? Needless to say, you and I fully believe in democratic institutions, norms, and ethics. And as someone who is a believer of them, you know, I try to think about persuasion to people who aren't already with us. And for a lot of those people, they hear you saying, I hate Donald Trump and everything he stands for, which is correct. I do. That's correct. You and I are in that camp. And they say, well, your structural arguments are that, well, you want the system to work according to the things that you want to do when you're in power. I understand. Democrats want it to work a certain way. Republicans want it to work a certain way. You just don't like what he's doing. He doesn't like what you're doing. And I don't think that that's our analysis of the situation. However, I understand and empathize with people who see it that way, that, okay, you know, you guys are tribal and you fight over quote-unquote democracy institutions when you're in power versus when you're not in power. And my point in reaching those types of people is to say that economic democracy to them matters a hell of a lot. Their livelihoods and their standard of living, and even with respect to ICE, just like, what is the community around you? How is your life being improved to not improved? Do I associate and understand with what is going on with you, especially at a time when oligarchy has its power and sway of attracting the wealthiest and most powerful in our political system to move towards them. The test is, do you know and understand my life as an Uber driver, as an Amazon driver, as somebody who is just trying to go day to day here, and you have a better chance of winning them over, particularly people who are already with us. So it's like thinking of ICE as an attack of like the powerful against the working class, or like the thugs as dispatched by the the powerful to sort of harm the most vulnerable, both in terms of, you know, politically and economically, socially, financially. That's part of it. And I, you know, I, in my view, you know, I, I'm a believer that integrity matters a lot in this, that people believe in law enforcement, want it to succeed and want it to work well. I tend to believe that's my own view. And, and they don't believe that law enforcement should be used for these partisan political ends or just all kinds of activities. So the question for a Democrat is you want to come in, can you show the integrity of I will utilize law enforcement? It won't go away. I'm not here to say there will be no enforcement of people who do heinous things in society, owning that there are the small minorities of people who are criminals, do bad things, and we don't want them to disrupt life for the vast majority of us who are peace-loving and want to just go about our lives. So as a Democrat who believes in law enforcement, can I say that when I am in power, law enforcement will be used to ensure that there is accountability against small, tiny minorities of people who try to disrupt life for the rest of us. And I am comfortable utilizing those law enforcement skills and focusing them on where actual harms exist, not unleashing them to propagate further harms that are unneeded to society. Well so you brought us firmly you steered this ship into icy waters shall I say fast And you raise the question even in the way you frame it for how Democrats should talk about law enforcement and ICE and I would argue there a difference at least in Minnesota between how law enforcement and the police were acting and how ICE was acting But nonetheless, I want to talk to you about this race in Texas where a Democrat wins by 14 points in a district Trump carried by 17 points in 2024. for. When you got that news this week, how much stock did you put in it? And because Texas is a border state and because ICE has been so dominant in the national narrative lately, and the videos obviously of Alex Preddy and Renee Good getting killed became the subject of dinner table conversation nationally. How much do you think that had to do with that victory? How much importance do you play? How much of a bellwether do you think it might be for 2026? I mean, Alex, I think this is a fact. You can check me on it, that Democrats have flipped 26 state legislative seats since Trump took office and Republicans have flipped zero. Zero. So 26. So scoreboard, we're looking up, it says 26 to zero. Do you have what would you like to take away from that? I would like to be on the side with the 26. Yeah, well, this goes to our first part of the conversation, which is I don't want to live in the naivete of hope, but I want to live in the reality of where people are. Where is this country? Are we close enough to understanding them? And I think they're telling us they are they are with us when we present very clear, you know, both agendas of change plus accountability of Trump. And I think especially in a midterm cycle, there's a high degree of a desire for accountability of Trump, as you can appreciate. Right. Like that that just alone can carry us into like victory. And I think a lot of Democrats would know that, understand it, then move down on the bar of ambition. Right. As a result, we can just say we're going to check. Donald Trump. If we move to 2028, which is very much on my mind as well, as we saw in 2024 after 2022 midterm, now you're going to go into a larger universe of voters. Lots of people are going to dial in. And at that point, the question will be, has the Democratic brand done enough to convert and persuade people to say, you want to roll with us at this point? But for 2026, I'm feeling quite bullish. Yes. And needless to say, all the things, nationalizing elections and ballot tampering and fear and terror, we're eyes wide open here. We're not fools, but we are projecting a sense of strength. I don't want to live in the place of cowering in fear. And that's what you hear me saying over and over again. That's not the word tampering. Cower in fear. No. Chest up, proud that we're coming for you. We're going to win this damn thing because we got the people. the more immigration becomes something Democrats feel like they can go on offense about do you think the more it requires of Democrats in terms of a full fully developed position on immigration I noticed that you were like yeah you were talking about law enforcement and and it was like uh you know I don't want to put I don't want to I don't want to put labels on you but it was a moderated position on like keeping space for law enforcement playing an integral role in society. You did not say the phrase abolish ICE. Do you think the whole abolish ICE sort of debate is something Democrats should litigate right now or in 2028 or ever? Can they avoid it? I've always been strong for you that people should say what they really believe and stand by them. I do tend to think that the public itself is as fractured and has different viewpoints on this as some of us do. It'd be foolish for us to just not own that, of course, people themselves are trying to wrestle with what's the proper role of vice and should it exist, should it not exist. And at least in a healthy ecosystem, I want people who have firm commitment of their views and have thought deeply about it to propagate those views. I think it hurts us, and I mentioned it was, I think you and I have had conversations about Kamala Harris in 2024, where, in my view, the challenge was when you pipe down and don't say anything, and people assume, wait, you said something before, and now you don't want to say anything? It suggests to me that either you've changed your views, you didn't believe what you said before, there's some waffling going on, the sincerity, the integrity has now been lost. It's like, no, if you, I think what are, I was looking at some of the statements that Congressman Ocasio-Cortez has stated recently, and they're doing quite well in popularity, and one of the reasons, at least in my take of it, is because people see in her conviction, integrity, with the words that come out of her mouth, she believes. You put her in office, she's going to do the thing she said she was going to do. And just that alone puts you in the 90th percentile of politicians. You have told me something you really believe. You've given me an argument. But isn't that like, yeah, I mean, the whole point is you get into politics because you don't say what you believe. I mean, isn't that kind of like the mold of yesteryear? But Trump has changed that, right? He has made it okay for people to be audacious and public in their beliefs. And I think more comfortable just giving a theory as to why you believe what you believe while owning that people will disagree that the 2020 election was stolen from you, but they do agree with you on no taxes on tips and they disagree with you on Greenland, but they agree with you on the single family home should not be bought by large investors. You know, he I think there's this some kind of compilation of that, the nuance, the kind of depth of treating people with respect and integrity that says, I'm going to give you views. I don't know that he's treating people with respect and integrity. No, no, no. I'm saying we us treating. He's completely fucking aimless and unfiltered in his rage and prescriptions. As we're talking about, he's losing people. But there was a period of time he was gaining people right after we lived in the first term. He won. And I'm saying that in that sense, you treat people with depth of their own appreciation of wanting a real conversation about immigration and come to it with your own viewpoints. Like, so I can give you my viewpoints. I'm not saying it is the viewpoints that I hold for the entire Democratic Party. I want other people to have differences, to have a good conversation about it and to say, here's what I really believe, but not to castigate each other saying, you therefore are a horrible human being because you have a different viewpoint than I do. I think that's where the canceling of various people doesn't do us a lot of good. appreciate that there's a debate, a good and healthy debate that we should have. Do you think the party is capable of that? Yeah, I think people are capable of that. People will appreciate it. Now, whether who's in the ring and how they treat each other when they're in the ring is a different part. Politics can be ugly and people treat each other. We're seeing it. Politics, they beanbag. Exactly. So how they act, I'm not as hopeful for. But what I would express is that the public is ready for it. You look at the long form conversations like you and I have on these types of formats on YouTube, you know, the conversation, the stuff we're doing. We hope everyone's subscribing on YouTube, I'll just say. I just. And even he's listening right now. I see desires for depth and nuance. And I literally is the premise of More Perfect Union was that like, OK, I'm going to do these long form explainers of stuff and I've only seen greater and greater growth. I just that that's my operating assumption. People appreciate and trust and respect depth of a conversation, but don't glide over it with superficiality. And don't give me like a finger in the wind saying, well, I read the latest poll and the poll says don't say abolish ICE and therefore I'm going to be walking on eggshells about how to talk about this because I read some poll and therefore I'm going to spit out a talking point. It's going to be, I mean, it's going to require some fucking cojones, I'll say. And I mean that in the most non-gendered way possible. Conviction. In order for people to just say, here's my idea about this thing and tell me what you think of it and tell me if you disagree or agree. I mean, that would require a level of discipline and empathy and, I don't know, a patience and confidence. I mean, all the things that I don't think about national politics is happening, but maybe you're right. I mean, maybe we're in a different moment where absolutism is less the order of the day. I don't know. I mean, I think you and I could, you know, I think I think there's worlds in which we can model constructive debate even. Oh, I don't know fucking anything. And I'm always like, what's the answer? No, you're you've always. I don't. I'm not an absolute. I think it's. Yeah. And it's also just like having like where we kind of model like how the candidates should quite frankly be doing it. Like, here's here's more like us. Yeah, they are really great. People are like that. We're trying to be real, and we are real. People know Alex. She's a wonderful human being. We like each other, and we can have disagreements. You're contractually obligated to say that as a guest on this podcast. But I think from your lips to God's ears, I think that that is the case, that people will—you shouldn't run for office, certainly not the president of the United States, without some sense of depth of grounding and a depth of conversation that you want to have, especially in 2028 when the issues have become far more convoluted, far more depth—like AI and crypto. and all of that world of polymarket. There's so many things that are far more, you know, wealth-oriented and distant from the working class. And we should own a person who wants to wield power and authority is going to have to speak about things that are becoming increasingly complex and have nuanced views for the American public to digest. Yeah, just be more like me. And my takeaway is be more like Alex Wagner and Faj Shakir. More of my conversation with Faj Shakir right after this break. Runaway Country is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Company. When I'm at the fishmonger, I just called it the fishmonger, but when I'm at the fish case, it's like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know. I don't know what that fish smells like. I don't know what's fresh. I mean, I try and go by sight, but is that enough? I need help. I want to get fish that's nutritious and sustainable and also, most importantly, tastes amazing. 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I want to end this because you are just a brilliant political mind, which is made obvious by the quality of your conversation, Faz, but you also have just a real keen insight into the bloodsport of winning states for your time running national elections. I... Didn't win enough, but yes, I'm trying. Bro, you did a very fucking good job. Thank you. And I want to know how you're looking at that Senate map. I want to know what you think of in this season of optimism and hope that you began this podcast with. Where are you? Where do you think there's some pickups? What are you optimistic about? And I say this on the tailwinds of this Texas election and heading into maybe not a stolen 2026 midterm election. Yeah, I mean, we'll see how Texas plays out. But that's certainly one. But Mary Peltola in Alaska, I think, is a very, very strong candidate and puts that state definitely in play. I certainly think the way Maine is going, I'm more of a Plattner fan, to be clear. That doesn't surprise me. I have an ongoing running debate with Dan Pfeiffer about this. Basically, we talk about the Maine center race every week. Is that okay? Yep. So I'm a Plattner believer, and I'd like to see him try to run it out against Collins, and I feel like he'd be in good stead. And then Iowa, I'm really bullish on. And then Ohio, of course, with Sherrod Brown coming back. So if you just look at the map. Return to the Sherrod, yeah. Yeah, I feel really good about some of these. And then there's going to be some pickup opportunities even that are stretches. I mean, whether Dan Osborne in Nebraska can do it the second time against a billionaire in Ricketts. There's others, but I want to see how it develops because we're still in primary season right now. And the map changes once you get it to the show. And also maybe you're not allowed to say who you like, although you did stamp your ticket for Graham Plattner. But like Michigan, for example, I noticed you glossed over that one. Yeah. And Texas. I like it. Obviously, I like Abdul. I've known him for a long period of time. I'd like to see him get the nomination. However, if you're asking me, could we win with, you know, other candidates? Yeah, I think we could win, right? Like, I'm not going to tell you we can't. It's like kind of how I felt about Bernie. I thought Bernie was the strongest possible candidate in 2020. I thought we'd win with Bernie Sanders. And I wasn't going to tell you, like, no, Joe Biden, there's no way in hell that we could ever win if he was the nominee. Yeah. So I think that these are where voters, you want healthy democracy to play out. That's why I want healthy primaries. Same with, you know, Tallarico, in my view, has been more of a class warrior on economic justice issues than Jasmine Crockett has, has been more clear about taking on a billionaire class for that reason. I like that message, no surprise to you. And I like the way that we can go into a general election with that kind of an approach. So, you know, but in the end, if democracy plays on people vote, I respect it, right? So we are having healthy primaries. We're putting up clear choices. And then I want to reevaluate once the choices come through in a general election. But I'm feeling bullish again. I love that. We started with you bullish and we're ending with you bullish. I just want to ask you, because you mentioned Bernie and you obviously have a long, illustrious career with him. Joe Biden got old. Donald Trump is getting really old. Bernie Sanders is ageless, timeless. What the hell? I don't know. I mean, it's funny. He hasn't, he's maybe because he started out at like 82 or whatever. Like he's always been old, but it's, it's kind of crazy. We're, you know, we were on a train the other day and I said, Senator, I got to ask you, like, you got to give me the recipes of life. I want to get to 84 and have your mental acuity. He's still a sharp, but he remembers every trip we go on. He remembers shit from it that I forget easily. Jeez, I want that. I want whatever that is. And he's still just, is that energy? He feeds off of like a mission and purpose in life. Yes. The rage powers him. It's true. It keeps him ticking. All right. Well, like, I guess word to the wise, be bullish, but don't lose the rage. And maybe we can all be as lucid as Bernie. Justice and a vision for the world. Like it does keep him going. Like a sense of this. I tend to think I couch it in optimism. I know some people look at him and sometimes say it's curmudgeonly and angry. But I'm like, no, it's fundamentally an optimism and a belief. in America, in the power of people. And I share that with him. I learned it from him. I'm an apprentice of his. But like, you know, I share it with all of you. Just carry that of a belief that the country can and will be better than it is today. Fajdic here, you are the best. Fajdic, thank you for your time, buddy. Thank you, Alex. Good to see you, as always. You too. That is our show for this week. As always, if you have been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies, send us an email or a one-minute voice note at runawaycountry at crooked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge thank you to everyone who has written in already. You guys are the best. Last but not least, please do not forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos, uncut gems, on our YouTube channel, Runaway Country, with Alex Wagner. Thanks for listening. Music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.