Austin Metcalf's Father Speaks Out, Plus False Karmelo Anthony Narratives, and Blake Lively Legal Fees Ruling, with Mark Geragos and Arthur Aidala | Ep. 1338

Push yourself to the limits and move the needle in the all-electric Ford Puma Gen E with bold 18-inch alloy wheels and signature LED headlights. Or challenge what's possible in the Ford Puma with athletic design and a mega box for additional boot space storage. Pick your Puma power. Until the end of June you can drive away in a petrol-powered Puma with 0% APR on four-year Ford options from Ford Credit. Finance subject to status. Ready, set, Ford. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at New Neist. Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. Happy Friday. And on this Kelly's Court Day we're going to have Mark Garagos and Arthur Idallah coming up in just a minute. But we begin today with the continued fallout from the Carmelo Anthony guilty verdict. In just moments we are going to be speaking one-on-one with Jeff Metcalf. He's the father of Austin Metcalf, the young 17-year-old boy who was killed by Carmelo Anthony for no reason. There have been vile attacks on the Metcalf family in the wake of Austin's murder. It is the strangest phenomenon I have seen in recent years where this community has turned on the victim's family. They've done nothing other than mourn their son. And there are literally people posting the most vile things about what they'd like to do to Austin's grave, to Austin's brother, his twin brother Hunter, to Jeff Metcalf, his dad, to his mom. It's something very bizarre is happening with this case. We'll talk about it and we'll talk with Jeff Metcalf about this entire case in just a moment. But we're going to start with something that we've been wanting to do as this case is unfolded and the parents of Carmelo Anthony have come out and tried to spin a narrative. A little fact check is in order because the other reporters refuse to do their jobs. They get these parents in front of them, Carmelo Anthony's, and they allow them to spew lies about the Metcalf family or this case. And there's no challenge because no one will do any homework. No one does their homework and they just want to allow them to spin this narrative and it's bullshit. So we're not going to do that here. We are going to correct the record so that you know what's real and what's not. We played a few clips yesterday, but we're going to play a few more today. It began with the parents of Carmelo Anthony, the murderer, their description of the aftermath of the murder where they claim that Hunter Metcalf, the surviving twin, is lying about his twin brother, Austin Metcalf, dying in his arms. We played this yesterday from an interview with the Breakfast Clubs, Mimi Brown, but here it is again. Watch. Did Carmelo want to get his story out more to the public as well? He was trying to listen to what he was being advised. You know, they don't make it about rage. Don't do this. Don't do this. So we was like, all right, we'll go again. We played the game they wanted. We did everything along by the citizen policy. They told us, don't do this. We did with everything we were supposed to. And he wanted people. Of course he wanted somebody. They got pictures of him being 17 with a dress on, saying he could be raped in jail. All kinds of these adults were talking about this child, but nobody's seeing it. Nobody's seeing it. So we can't say anything. The other family, they go paint his lie that nobody's still having his clothes, that he died in his brother's arms. That's not true because that is a narrative. No, you never heard it no more. That was a lie. Neither of those parents was actually there at the track meet. And Carmelo's mom, Kayla Hayes, who you saw there, said she had been planning to go to the track meet, but decided not to because of the weather. So she wasn't there. We know that for a fact. Hunter was there. He's been 100% consistent in describing what happened. Here he is with Fox's Will Kane the day after the murder. I felt over there. I asked him to move the aggressive. He grabbed the bag. And then I went my head around and then all of a sudden I see him run down the bleachers, grabbing his chest. He just brought the rest of it out. He said, yeah, he got stabbed. He got stabbed. First I froze for half a second. I didn't know what to do. And then I saw him by the fall. I would go over there. I grabbed him. I see him. Let's go. You can picture what happened when I was coming out of his chest and y'all could visualize other stuff. I'm going to put down my mom right now, but I put my hand on there. I'm trying to make it stop. And I grabbed and said, I wasn't in his eyes. I just saw his sole leave. It took my soul to. I saw his sole leave and it took my soul to. He tried to save his twin brother. He couldn't describe holding him. How dare this family go out there and try to question his account as a lie that they don't nothing. They know absolutely nothing. Hunter was not asked to take the witness stand during the course of the trial, but the testimony given did back up his version of events. The prosecution's fifth witness in the case was Joshua Redman, an army veteran and defensive coordinator at Liberty High School. Redman testified that he noticed the commotion and he ran to the scene after Carmelo stabbed Austin. According to NBC five in Dallas, Redman had to move Hunter away from Austin's body. And that Hunter was quote freaking out, move him away so that they could give him medical care. After seeing Austin's wounds, Redman testified, quote, I knew he was gone. Now look at what Carmelo's dad told CBS's Jonah Kaplan about the jury. Take us inside that courtroom. What stuck out to you? What stuck out to me, number one was the all white judge, but I was trying to be, you know, like, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, the truth is on our side. Okay, this is totally false. First of all, the truth was never on their side ever. The truth is his son murdered somebody in cold blood for no reason. That's going to land everyone in jail for decades minimum. This kid got off easy with a 35 year sentence. Easy. He easily could have been put away for life. I was just listening to a case in Nebraska. If you commit a murder, you go away for life. Period. That's it. That's the penalty you get in Nebraska. You take somebody's life in a murder, you're going away for life. A life for a life. That's how it works. He is so lucky that he got only 35 years and could be eligible for parole in 17. He could get out of jail at age 34 with time served. I mean, you got your whole life ahead of you, which is more than we can say for poor Austin Metcalf. But putting that to the side, it is a lie that this was an all white jury. This is a lie being spun by race hustlers who want to stoke up racial animus in the wake of this totally just verdict. There were no black people on the jury, but it wasn't all white. Oh, by the way, why were there no black people on the jury? Because we had black jurors testifying, I'll give you an example, potential black jurors, testifying things like this. Quote, I don't know if I'd feel right putting a brother in jail. Yes, you will be dismissed from the jury every single time for that kind of nonsense, sir. That's why we had no black people on the jury. It wasn't because the prosecution was biased or didn't like black people or didn't think black people could come to a sane just verdict. But you can't put any juror, black, white, Hispanic or otherwise, and the jury with statements like that. Irrespective. This was not an all white jury. There were multiple minorities. According to Fox News Digital of the 12 jurors, there were three racial minorities, including Asian and Indian. Eight were women, four were men of the 18 total jurors, including alternates. So when they, you know, cast you back there, when they choose the 18, the prosecution and the defense have no idea who's going to be whom. Six were minorities. So everybody needs to knock it off with this all white jury narrative. It's not true. All right. And now here's more from Carmelo Anthony's parents here, the mother Kayla, who had this to say about the witnesses at trial. All of the witnesses statements and stories were inconsistent. So we think that the jury is going to notice that. But they already had their mind made up when they sat in that courtroom. Their mind was made up already. All right. First of all, this idiot doing the interview is sitting there with about 10,000 pounds of false eyelashes on just nodding herself. Yes, her head. Yes. I guarantee you this woman didn't watch two minutes of the trial. She's just going with the narrative that is her preferred narrative. She has no anything. She has no idea whether the witnesses were consistent or not. Clearly. I understand the mother's grief at what has happened with her son, but that your job as a reporter is to stay factual and to not facilitate lies on your air. I realize it's quote, the breakfast club, which nobody's really turning to for truly factual coverage about a trial, but do better, madam. If you're going to get into this game, do better. The witnesses were consistent. They just all went against Carmelo's case. Here's the Daily Mail's Marianne Martinez, who was in the courtroom posting on X Friday quote, we have now heard from 16s who were at the stadium the day Austin Metcalf was stabbed by Carmelo Anthony. Four out of the six are black. All have testified that Carmelo Anthony was asked to leave the Memorial High School team tent, provoked Austin Metcalf and pulled a knife before or while Austin had even pushed Carmelo. There was total consistency on that. And here's what Marianne reported Saturday. They had the trial on Saturday, which was unusual, but it happened quote, today we've heard from five additional kids six yesterday, five today in the Carmelo Anthony trial. They're all telling the same story. Carmelo was not known or wanted underneath the Memorial High School tent. Multiple kids asked him to leave and he refused. The truth is, whatever inconsistencies there were of note came from the defense witnesses. One defense witness had to admit he was wrong when he told police that Carmelo was surrounded in the tent before the stabbing. He'd been trying to paint a picture like these kids from Memorial High School had been like ganging up on him surrounding him. And therefore he was threatened. That was bullshit. He was forced to concede on the stand that Carmelo was only surrounded after he stabbed and murdered Austin Metcalf from CBS, Texas. Quote, prosecution, you had a few things wrong when we talked. Is that right? Witness. Yes, sir. Prosecution, your initial statement to police that you saw Carmelo Anthony surrounded had to be after the stabbing. Yes, said the witness. You had a story in your head when we visited, correct? Yes. After a few more lines of questions, they continued. Prosecution, my impression when we first met, you thought when you saw people surrounding Carmelo Anthony, it was before the stabbing. Yes, sir. That was actually after the stabbing, asked the prosecutor. Witness, I couldn't really tell. Prosecution, when you and I met, you told me you thought it was before the stabbing. Witness, I thought it was as the stabbing was happening. Prosecution, you know you're wrong? Witness, yes. Yes, sir. And then moving on, we get this story from Carmelo's father, that Carmelo wasn't trying to leave the scene after he plunged a knife for no reason into Austin Metcalf's heart, that he simply had just gone over to a teacher for a hug after this dastardly deed. Watch. And so the video that you all, that they showed in court, it shows him running away from... Yeah, he ran to a teacher. The teacher said, the teacher he ran to, he ran to a guy and the teacher he ran to actually, he hugged him. Because Carmelo, he's not likely, he hugged the guy. He was freaking out, he hugged the guy. So the guy was, they was hugging, he was crying hysterically and they tried to pay him as if he was trying to leave. But in court, they should have said it that he wasn't trying to leave. Yeah. Hmm, what would be a good way of getting that testimony in order to give your son's defense, maybe put him on the witness stand? But you chose not to do that. You chose not to make the case that it was self-defense through Carmelo, nor that he didn't flee through Carmelo. You just, you want to get your helpful facts out now after the trial's over? That's not how it works, sir. Now what he said there is partially true based on witness testimony, but it leaves out some key facts. See, according to CBS Texas, Carmelo only went to that teacher after he was first stopped by Memorial High School athletic trainer Tiffany Whitaker. The teacher, who is heritage high school coach Vincent Hooper testified that Whitaker handed Anthony to him, saying, do not let him leave. That's also according to CBS Texas. He wasn't just looking for a supportive hug. He was not free to leave because they realized he had just committed a murder. And here's more color from Sarah Fields on X quote, Tiffany Whitaker, the athletic trainer with Memorial High School, testified that she got in front of Anthony as he was running, put her hands up to keep him from leaving and yelled at coach Vincent Hooper, hey, this kid stabbed someone. Don't let him leave. This is when coach Hooper put his arms around Carmelo in a hugging fashion to prevent him from leaving the stadium. That's what happened. That's what the testimony was at trial. And yet this drew Anthony gets up there to say, and you saw the long pause. That's the long pause of a liar searching for a story. And he spoon fed it to this moron to say, oh, he just needed a hug. Where was her homework to say wrong, sir? The trial testimony suggested he was stopped physically by a coach who had just received a holler from someone else saying stop him. He just stabbed someone. This is ridiculous. All right. Here, moving on, is what Carmelo's parents had to say about Carmelo not taking the witness stand. Watch. And did Carmelo want to testify on his own behalf and was? It was based on everything. It didn't need nothing because everything they said on his cell defense, they have to prove they never proved. Okay. So that was never, that was because I know there was this pause and a lot of people thought that, you know, we were going to come back and he was going to take the stand and he didn't. So that was never an option that had never been discussed of him taking the stand. That's why we just need to anew it when he's when he somebody who's going to fight. That's what I'm going to say right now. We just need somebody on a fight for not an answer. Because they hold thing was he provoked it. That was the whole. The entire case he provoked it. That's what the whole thing was. That's not an answer. Okay. She said she's asking why didn't take the witness stand. He's just meandering. He doesn't want to give it up. I'm telling I'll tell you right now why he didn't want to take the witness stand. He was obviously going to make a terrible witness, terrible witness. And my suspicion is it's because he has zero regrets. He's not sorry at all. At all. He's an aggrieved young man taught racial grievance most likely from his parents who hired the biggest race hustler in Texas as their family spokesperson. There is zero chance if Carmelo Anthony would have made a compelling witness if he really were the sweet kid just running around looking for hugs that he would not have wound up on that stand, my friends. That's how you make a self defense. Defense. That's not what happened. And what he's saying there in any event is not true. The jury not only convicted Carmelo, they rejected his sudden passion defense that would have knocked down his conviction to only a second degree felony. They just weren't buying what the defense was selling at all. Have you noticed the shirts that they're wearing too? They say the parents here. Hashtag believe Carmelo. How are we supposed to believe him if he didn't say anything? In his own defense. We have no idea what Carmelo's position is. He hasn't spoken one word. What do you mean believe Carmelo? What the F is that some weird take on believe all women, which was also bullshit? There's no one to believe. You people are, I understand, upset parents, but you don't deserve our presumption of truth tellers. You haven't earned it. We don't believe you. And your son has given us absolutely nothing to hold on to whatsoever. And you heard in that sound bite some animosity toward Carmelo's attorney, Mike Howard, who is white. They claimed that's the reason that they hired them, him because they were advised to hire a white guy. Watch. Everybody kept saying, Hey, the beat this, the beat this. I would, I would even went to some black attorney. They're like, Oh, you need a white, you need a white attorney to go out there to fight out there. Remember they were telling us that. So do you believe your son received a fair trial? Absolutely. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And we don't keep fighting. We will not stop fighting for justice for my son. But was there at any point that you felt the outcome was heading in this direction? No. Everybody lied. Look at the report. Everybody, everybody. Why didn't the defense call more witnesses? That's not my department and I apologize for that. Because there was no one who could help him because all the witnesses, hello Mimi, the white ones and the black ones said it was exactly as. Austin Metcalf's defenders said that Carmelo Anthony went into a tent he wasn't invited into that the teams did not sit together. It was highly unusual for someone to do this. It was basically considered a provocation that multiple, multiple people went over to Carmelo to say, please leave. He wouldn't that when Austin, who'd been asked by a coach to be a leader in the tent that day, keep order, make sure nothing happened. That was going to lead to a bad result. That's why he wanted him to leave. I'm sure Austin saw this could spiral into something because it was, you know, an enemy as that term is used in sports in your home camp. No one allows that. Can you imagine a spur getting up at the next game and going sitting down on the next bench? That doesn't happen. So he went over to say, you need to leave. And the first response was I'm an aggrieved person who felt put upon like, you just make me go ahead and try to make me see what happens. All right, tough guy, right? That's he was looking for a fight. He knew he had a knife in his bag. I've been saying for days now, I could easily make the case as a prosecutor that this whole thing was a setup that he went there with murder and murder. Why else would he have brought that knife in to attract me into a tent? Why else would he have dared Austin Metcalf to put hands on him? And then Austin does in a way that didn't even knock him into the man next to him, Carmelo. And in his his aunt before he can even be rattled in his seat. He's got a knife in the guy's chest. Okay, that's the reason we didn't have more witnesses. The lawyer for Carmelo Anthony was not talented. There's no question he wasn't. However, the reason there was not a parade of witnesses is they did not exist. They weren't there. He cannot manufacture someone out of thin air. So now they seem to be saying they wanted more of a fighter as an attorney. These people raised over $600,000 on Give, Send, Go for Carmelo's defense. Lots of good lawyers would have been eager to take that kind of fee, not to mention the publicity this trial would generate. A lot of lawyers love that. But instead they went with Mike Howard. Did they do any research? Do they have access to Google? Because this is what Mike Howard posted on February 4th, 2025, almost two months before Austin was murdered. Did he telegraph, I will be a shark for you? I will be fierce in a courtroom for you. I will take no prisoners for you. You tell me. So what kind of lawyer do you want? Do you want an aggressive junkyard dog who's going to fight for you hard? Or do you want somebody who has a reputation as easy to get along with? The answer might surprise you. While of course it's important to have somebody who fights for your rights and stands up for you. If they are that aggressive junkyard dog, the risk can be that they end up being obnoxious or offensive to judges, prosecutors and even to juries if your case goes to trial. I have cultivated a reputation at the courthouses in which I work as somebody who fights for their clients. And if you go to trial, I'm going to give you a hard fought trial, but who's easy to work with, easy to get along with and reasonable. That ends up benefiting my clients. Okay. I'm sorry, but you have yourselves to blame. A concept with which you should really familiarize yourselves. That you have yourselves to blame. For the way your son turned out. For the way his trial turned out. For the way your lives turned out. What happened is $600,000, by the way. Where is that? Because just today, yesterday, he already filed for an appeal of the verdict and is pleading indigency that he's quote, penniless. So where's the money? Did it all go to this guy, Mike Howard? Or did it go to your mansion that you hung out in over the past year while you claimed you were receiving threats, driving around, live in large? I'd love to know. Look, it's painfully obvious that Carmelo Anthony's parents let him down in numerous ways. And I want to end here. Okay. On something that is actually largely true, that Anthony's father drew Anthony said, watch. He said in court yesterday, forgot. He said that they told my son to look at me when I'm talking to you. Who said that? The dad, the son, both of them said, look at me. Why, why we talking to you? They said, look at me while I'm talking. What? Yeah. They, they did say, look me in the eyes. I don't know how drew Anthony knows that because he didn't bother to show up during the sentencing and victim impact statements. Couldn't bother to be there for his son in that moment. He pieced out of there. But back to what drew claimed in that sound bite. Yeah. Hunter Metcalf, Austin's twin and Jeff, his dad did reportedly ask Carmelo to look them in the eyes during their victim impact statements and Carmelo didn't. He only briefly looked at Hunter one time. He couldn't bear to look in the eye, the people whose lives he changed forever. He couldn't even give them that courtesy. And this family has not only failed to offer any courtesy or condolences to the Metcalf family. They are directly responsible for the hell that is that was unleashed on them one year ago. That has been continuing ever since the day their son was killed. And that has gone on steroids since this verdict, this just supported verdict of guilty against Carmelo Anthony. The community, the affection of the black community in Texas and a faction of the black community that is in media has turned on the victims on this poor family still suffering and tried to demonize them somehow, And this is not the only thing for harm legal or otherwise to happen to the twin brother hunter. Openly forgive me talking about urinating on Austin's grave, celebrating the thought of it. It's despicable. Joining us now is the man Carmelo could not seem to face. Jeff Metcalf, he's the father of Austin Metcalf. Every year I try to find a father's day gift that actually gets used for Doug, not something that ends up forgotten in a drawer. This year, we're looking at cozy earth. Their bamboo sheets set can completely change how you sleep. They are unbelievably soft, they're cool all night, and they make getting into bed feel like a luxury hotel. And then there's the everywhere pant and everyday polo. One customer said quote, the pants were so comfortable, breathable, lightweight, barely wrinkle that I bought three pairs. You can wear them with sneakers, dress them up a bit, travel in them. It's the kind of upgrade dads might not buy themselves, but once they have it, they live it for dad's stepdad's granddad's and every father figure who shows up. This one's for them. Cozy earth's bamboo sheet set everywhere pant and everyday polo are designed to keep him cool, comfy and relaxed all summer long. Head to cozy earth.com. Use my code Megan for an exclusive 20% off. That's code Megan for an exclusive 20% off. And if you see a post purchase survey, mention that you heard about cozy earth right here. Jeff, welcome to the show. I am so, so sorry for your loss and for what has been happening to your family. Thank you for this time. Can I just start with your reaction to the disgusting blowback that your family is receiving now for some reason in the wake of this guilty verdict? I mean, to be honest, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. If you're just a average normal human being that has empathy and compassion for your fellow man, you don't act that way. The moral decay of society today is rampant and the only people that can fix it are us, the ones who exist at this very moment. To make sure you teach your kids right from wrong and guide them and give them love and guidance and let them grow and become a contributing factor of a member of society. The moment the verdict came down and you heard them say guilty. What, what did you feel? Realistically, I mean, there was a sense of relief and it was going to be a sense of relief, no matter what was said. I just needed to get through this timeframe of this process. It's been a long time since my son was murdered and not being able to speak. Why my dead son's being drugged through the mud, memes, pictures. But let me, let me make one thing clear. That has went on from both sides and I don't condone any of it. I've seen the things that they've made about Carmelo and it's disgusting. It's, it's, it's just as vile as the things that are done about my son. And, and those people that are so far left or so far right, that has the need to attack a dead child or a child that's going to prison or a child, any child. It doesn't sit well with me. He's going to have to take the consequences for his actions, but we don't need piling on. I mean, this has been a tragedy for both families. Unfortunately, you know, the Anthony Steel continue to deflect from the truth. The truth has been out there. The truth was exposed. There was no phone one. There was no broken phone. All the lies have been debunked. And if they were at the trial during sentencing or during impact statement, they would have some more information, but they chose to abandon their child at that point and let him be there by himself. That alone to me says a lot about their parenting skills and who they are as people. That's a true reflection of their character. It has nothing at all to do with me. Have you come to know anything about Carmelo Anthony in the past year? Because he's said nothing. All we've seen from the parents is some racial grievance and just fact revision that bears no relation to what actually happened inside the trial. And the fact that they represented themselves as a, with a, with a spokesperson who is undoubtedly a race hustler. He's been injecting race into this case from the very beginning, this Dominique Alexander. So do you, but have you been able to learn anything about Carmelo Anthony this past year? No, ma'am. Nothing. All I know is he was put on house arrest and he got to enjoy his freedom as you get to stay at home and play video games and eat pizza and have friends over and get to go to the library, get to go to his haircut. So basically still gets to live until the trial. I knew nothing. I don't know where they live. I don't, they don't communicate. I mean, ever since the press conference when I came to try to bridge the gap and they had me remove, you know, Dominique Alexander proceeded to gas like me. You know, he acted like, you know, he had this professional security team, which actually he DPS has already found him guilty of operating a security team. That's not licensed. This person has floundered and all he wants to do is infomercials for NGAN. He really is, I call him minister irrelevant because that's who he really is. He just, he wants his 15 minutes of fame. He wants to give the Anthony's bad advice and take their money. And that's what he did. And from what I understand now, there's maybe a little bit infighting on that side of the camp. I heard that Tiffany billions was blaming Dominique Alexander for the sentence that he received. No, the sentence he received was too light to begin with, but he's lucky he got 35 because as my ex-wife pointed out, me, her and Hunter and the rest of our family, we've all been served a life sentence. Not to mention if your son killed a black 17 year old in this manner, just shoving a knife in his heart after the black boy had literally just placed a hand on your son. He absolutely would have been sent to jail for the rest of his life. There's just no way this, this, they gave him a gift with this 35 years old sentence. He'll be out with good behavior, possibly by the before he's 35 years old. So I have no empathy for these claims that this was somehow that the book was thrown at him or the sentence was unjust. If it was unjust in any way, it was an unjust to Austin, not to Camarillo Anthony. This Dominique Alexander, the family spokesperson is a baby beater. He's a convicted baby abuser. He seems to get off crushing little two year old babies and that's not a matter of dispute. Here he is this week in reaction to the verdict on the late night with Mama Monique podcast, Sop 20. Camillo is all of our babies. Most people know him as a hashtag and a name. I know that baby. What matter is that a baby was railroaded in a courtroom. He's a baby who was railroaded. This is the narrative that they're spinning, Jeff. And it's taking hold as you've seen. I mean, is it stunning to you that there are people out there believing this nonsense? No. There are people out there that voted for their favorite political person based on color. It doesn't work that way. I mean, let's just deal with facts and truth. Not spin webs to create narratives that benefit you. Let's just be truthful. As he always says, let me be clear. He can't be clear about anything other than he can clearly lie, misrepresent and grift from other people. That's his MMO. When your family was leaving the courtroom the day of the verdict, and you were followed by these activists outside of the courthouse who've been shouting the most vile things about your deceased boy and you guys possible, and you had Hunter with you, what was that like? Okay, we need to clarify this. Okay, that's not the truth. Okay, first of all, we were escorted in and out of the courtroom with security and driven to an offsite undisclosed location. What you're referring to were four individuals who were friends of Hunter and Austin's, and they were coming after the trial to meet us where we were at the undisclosed location. There was a mix-up by the Collin County Courthouse as far as security procedures, and they let them walk out without any protection whatsoever. They were immediately surrounded to try to get to their car, and these are 17, 18-year-old kids, friends of Hunter and Austin's. One was a female, three were male. The things they said, we're going to pistol on Austin's grave. We're glad that Austin's dead. Just a continual vile outbreak and trying to really disturb them and impede their progress. They finally made it to the car. They made it to us. They were visibly shaken, crying, upset. I was upset, but one, because of the security, the lapse of security. It just goes to show how this certain set of a certain subculture, and I mean very small percentage. I'm not trying to pick on any certain race, but I am going to identify one subculture of a race that does continue this type of behavior. I don't think it represents the entire race. I have many friends of different ethnicities, color, race, gender. Like I said before, I am racist against assholes. I don't care what color you are, but if you treat me with disrespect, I will give it back to you. As far as the Anthony's, they're just in a constant state of denial. It would be hard for me to accept that my son is a murderer, but the difference between me and them would be, I would hold my son accountable. I would make him apologize, and I myself would reach out and apologize and ask, is there anything I can do? I am so sorry. This is terrible. My son made a mistake. Yes, he did, and he's going to have to pay for it. But the lack of remorse, the lack of humility, and all you want to stand up there and give me some fake crocodile tears, same ones I saw at the press conference, that you're going to try to ask for sympathy or more money or whatever you need. I can tell you what, you need God in your life. And if you already have it, trust him and lean into his understanding and stop spreading lies and just accept the truth. The truth was presented in the court more than one, more than 10, more than 15, more than 20 people testified. There was no mistrial of justice. There was all white, there were many minorities. And like, you can't fill out your form stating your bias. If you expect to be picked as a juror, that just totally eliminates you. Everything about this thing was fair. And to me, I'm not being able to speak. Did I feel like that was fair? No. They all have t-shirt cells and activists on TikToks every night, monetizing, making money, telling lies while I stand here and just have to keep my mouth shut. My house has been swatted. My ex-wives have been swatted. They talk about the stuff they've lived through. No. Yes, maybe you experienced something, but nothing on the level that we have experienced. And I feel sorry for them if they experienced anything. And like I said before, I don't condone all the social media memes and derogatory comments, because I know how it feels, because your side has done it to me four times as much as they're doing it to you. But either way, two wrongs still don't make a right. So, you know, crazy has no color. Love doesn't see color. Hate doesn't see color. And for people to see the color, they really should look at themselves in the mirror and reevaluate who you are and how are you a piece of society? Are you part of the problem? Are you part of the solution? So, you know, hopefully in this world, I'm only, I probably only got another 20, 30 years, but I'm more worried about the future and what we're teaching our children right now. And I'm sorry if you teach if I can only hop. I can only guess if that boy was raised differently, maybe I don't know why. And the biggest question that really I'll never get answered is why? Why did you not get up on the stand and tell your story? If this was true, why did you not defend yourself? Why did you? And it's your whole case is about self-defense, but yet you chose not even to defend yourself and your parents abandoned you during sentencing and victim impact statement. Action speak louder than words. I don't have to say anything. You guys smear your own name without me having to point it out. Everybody in America sees how we're all acting. It's a damn shame. That spoke volumes when the parents wouldn't wouldn't even stand there. And there was nobody else. And his who did his son have like the parents abandoned their son at the at the toughest moment when he was going to find out how much of his life was going to be spent in a cage. They peaced out. Have they said that they're sorry at all, Jeff? Has anyone from the from the Anthony family reached out to you or any of your family members to apologize to express regrets to see how you are throughout this whole thing? Yeah. Not one time. Wow. And how about now? Do you feel safe in your own home? Does your ex-wife feel safe in hers? Your son? I mean, are you? Well, I mean, I can't speak for my ex-wife, but I myself, I'm very safe. I mean, I'm I am not worried about my personal safety. I'm able to protect myself. It would be a it would be another devastating travesty if someone was to try to interject and approach me. The website TMZ is reporting today that your family is getting inundated with dozens of death threats and other hateful messages following the conviction. Is that true? Yes, it is. Yeah, it's a daily. It's a daily occurrence. I've turned it over to law enforcement. I really don't want to comment too much on it. They're going to handle it, but it's a daily occurrence of vile text, actual phone calls that actually, you know, they want to talk to me. At some point, you know, they're going to have to get tired of it and go on. So, I mean, what's done is done. The verdict is out. Yeah, you can file for appeal. Really, everyone thinks there's new evidence, new that no, there's not. All the appeal point does is make sure it was procedures were followed correctly and there was no nothing that was done to to interfere with due process. TMZ is reporting that you've received messages like they say that these are screen grabs that from from messages sent to you. You're just mad because Austin's no longer living should have stabbed Hunter to didn't you beat Megan? I blame you and he after round and found out about Austin. Is that are these some of the message that you've that's just the tip of the that's just the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, that's that's it's unbelievable the amount I get and you know for this is so crazy. Yes, it is. It doesn't it doesn't make it's not rational behavior from a normal human being. Are you worried about Hunter's safety in the wake of these death threats and so on? He looks obviously just like his brother. There the hate toward him has been overwhelming. There's a petition now with change.org to have him arrested for assault. Are you concerned about him? Well, every parent, if you're a parent, are you concerned about your children every day? Yes, of course. Yeah. I'm being concerned since he was born. But now doubly so. Yes, because if something was to happen, oh man, that picture is the greatest. Those months. I mean, these memories, you know, the people that say, oh, I was an absentee father. Oh, I beat their mother. I've never laid a hand on a woman in my life. You can ask Megan. I may have now I may have not been the best person in the world, but I guarantee one thing. I never once laid a hand on her. I don't believe in that. I taught my boys that you don't ever take a step back. You don't ever touch women. I don't care if they hit you first. You do not strike a woman. That's just something I was taught from when I was raised. And I passed it on to my boys. These are some of the pictures of your twins growing up together and this video played. I understand as you gave your victim impact statement in court. How is how is Hunter doing? This must have been incredibly hard for him in particular. To be honest, Hunter is amazing. I spoke to him a couple of nights ago when he came over and we stepped out front by ourselves. And I wanted to tell him something. I said, son, when you when you walked up on that witness stand, you were a boy. When you stepped down from that witness stand, you were a man. I said, I have been hard on you and I have drilled so much into you. I know you're sick of me telling you, but I always told them about communication is the key. If you can't communicate, you're going to have problems with every part of your life, with your job, with your family, with your relationships. If you cannot effectively articulate your words and string them together in a sentence to convey your emotions or your thoughts in an effective manner so other people can understand you, you're going to be limited. And when he got up on that stand, because I was more emotional when I did my impact statement than him, he was calm, under control, held his emotions in check, was respectful, was direct, communicated in a very soft but firm and strong way to get his point across and to ask that man, young man with respect, he said, please look me in the eye. At least Carmelo gave him at least five, 10 seconds of looking me down and then straight back down. He wouldn't do that for me, but Hunter walked down off that witness stand as a man. And I told him last night, not before that, I hugged him and said, from now on, son, I don't look at you as a boy, I look at you as a man, I'm going to treat you as such. Wow. Were they identical, Jeff? Were they identical twins? Yes, they were. Austin was born a couple of minutes before. But yes, they were very identical. I actually used to have to take a black, sharpie and color in Hunter's toenail black so we could tell them apart when they were on the floor or we wouldn't get confused. The joke was, you know, you're from the black toe tribe. Because we do have Native American heritage in us, we do have our Indian cards, so we kind of joke about that. And he asked me, what tribe are we? And I was like, well, you're from the black toe tribe. And so that was a running joke for years. You're from the clear toe. You over there, clear toe. I asked you if you'd learned anything about Carmelo Anthony in the past year. We know precious little about Austin. I'd love to hear about what kind of kid Austin was. The day he was killed at 10 o'clock in the morning. Our church held a vigil and prompted vigil at 7pm that night. Our church holds 1500 people. It was completely full and overflowed of 200 or 300 people more in the lobby. We had me, family, friends who spoke about Austin and how he touched everyone. When I spoke about Austin, I told a story that I've told many times. I've told when I had cancer is people don't remember how much money you had. People don't remember what kind of car you drove or how big your bank account was. But people always remember how you made them feel. And they put their footprints on your heart. They leave a lasting impression in some positive way. And that's what's called a legacy. That's what you leave behind. Because when you live and when you're born, you have nothing. When you die, you go out with nothing. There's no you haul behind a her. What you leave behind is the people that you impacted in their life. And Austin was special. He had the ability to be a leader, to show compassion, to encourage his teammates to lift up and discover. I mean, I tried to make him go to church so many times before, but they found it through God, through their friends. God works through them. So I was fortunate that he found God. I was very, very lucky to have him as a son. And I could go on for days to tell you stories about Austin and how it earned me. Jeff, I hope we can continue the discussion sometime. I'm wishing you and your family nothing but wellness and healing. God bless you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you again. For 250 years, Americans have believed in a powerful idea that we were meant to live free, free to work hard, free to move, free to enjoy life without being held back. But if everyday aches and pains are slowing you down, it might be time for you to declare your independence from pain. Relief Factor is a 100% drug-free research-based formula designed to help your body fight inflammation, which is one of the root causes of pain. It's not a quick fix or a temporary mask. It works from the inside out at the source. Relief Factor was created so people could get their lives back on their terms. Walking, working, exercising, and enjoying the moments that matter in one's life. And I have felt the difference too. I've used Relief Factor repeatedly. This year, as we celebrate 250 years of American independence, take a stand for your own freedom. To commemorate the big 250, they are offering a special patriotic price, just $17.76. So you can declare your independence from pain and take your control. It's just $17.76. That's $17.76. The three-week quick start is ready for you. Visit ReliefFactor.com or call 800-4-Relief. We are turning now to Kelly's Court. Joining me now, Mark Garagos. He's the co-host of In the Well on our MK True Crime channel, which is a podcast called MK True Crime. And we have different shows on that podcast. So go ahead and subscribe now to the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts for free. And you can just go to MKTrueCrime.com as well, which will direct you to all the right places. Arthur Idallah is also here. He's our pal, longtime pal, and he's the host of the Arthur Idallah Power Hour, former prosecutor, former, well, now current defense attorney, civil lawyer, does it all, does it all. Guys, thank you for being here. Great to see you both. Oh my God, poor Jeff Metcalf. That was tough. This poor guy, in addition to losing his son, has had to deal with a nonstop harassment. They're treating him like his boy is the one who committed the murder of a black boy. That's how this is being treated. Like he's some racist kid who committed a murder for no reason. It's exactly the opposite. He did nothing wrong. He was trying to ask this kid to leave and he paid for that with his life. Arthur, what do you make of what's happening to this poor family? Well, yeah, I listened to the interview and I don't know who the rebel rouser is that you were referring to. There's Spokesperson down there in Texas. Dominique Alexander is his name. So Megan, it has literally become, people as you know this, it's become an industry. It's become like the way to make a living is to be a spokesperson for these cases. You can imagine how many there are in New York. I'm representing a police officer who's Hispanic, who kills someone who's Hispanic. All the witnesses and all the cops are Hispanic and they're making it a racial thing where everyone is the same exact race. And I mean, they're screaming and they're yelling and they ripped me apart for defending the sergeant. And it's what they do. They just create problems. They're unethical. They're absolutely. Now there are no ethics, right? They're not lawyers. So they play by the end and they are taking money. In my opinion, stealing people's money. I don't think they are providing any service, any benefit. I think it typically they wind up making things much worse. And but it's but because of all the social media and the clicks and all. I mean, you just ran off like eight podcasts that I never heard of where all these different interviews are taking place. So, hey, why not? Let me and I love the question you asked rhetorically. Where is all that go fund me money? And I did see he filed a indigent client, meaning he has no money to do his appeal. $600,000 is a significant amount of money for anybody, even though the Mark Garagos is a blow through in a year. I mean, that's, you know, that's a lot of money right there. So, you know, it's tragic. It's tragic. And and the twin brother and you highlighted that as well, Megan, you know, my best friend who I lost on 9 11, as tragic as it said, as his parents were, his siblings were. They still haven't recovered 25 years later, and I'm not exaggerating. And I could and to be a twin. I mean, that has to take everything to a whole nother level. So, you know, and talk about the legality of it. I've never tried a self-defense case where the defendant didn't testify and talked about why he had to act the way he did in self-defense. Mm-hmm. There's a reason they didn't put him on the stand. I think we all know they must have concluded he would have made a terrible witness. I mean, in a self-defense claim, Mark, to not put him up there, and he's the only one. He's the only one who could say what was in his heart when Austin Metcalf came over to him, why he said to Austin Metcalf, you know, push, try to touch me and you'll find out, touch me and you'll see. Why did you say that? Why were you inviting him to touch you? What was in your head as the you'll see part of that exchange? Why did you bring the knife? All those things, if he had good explanations for them, I think we would have heard them. Yeah, except it's not the law. And it's an interesting, one of the things that a judge instructs the jury in every single criminal case in America. Yeah, but isn't it different when it's self-defense as the defense? I know he has no obligation to testify and you can't hold it against him that he didn't. But he's raising his whole defenses. It was self-defense. I was afraid. I was threatened. Right. And if you really believed as the lawyer, still the one tactical decision that you don't get to make as a lawyer is whether to call your client or not. I've actually gone into chambers and murder cases and said it's over my dead body that the client is taking, pun intended, taking the stand. In a self-defense case, I've had more than a few cases where I have a guy, I had a result that was a voluntary manslaughter without the client taking the stand. People, I think in this case, didn't understand. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense lawyer. This did not strike me ever as a self-defense case. Yes, you invoke self-defense, but it was always going to be based on what was reported. Unfortunately, we didn't have cameras in the courtroom, but based on what was reported, this was always an excessive force against whatever the push, the shove, whatever the initiation was. If it's excessive force, then you're aiming for a reduction that you're negating malice. You're trying to get a manslaughter. You can argue both. You can argue both in your summation. You could say, you know, look, our position is that he acted as self-defense. He had fear and these are the reasons why now you can't get into the reasons why if he doesn't testify, if you don't know what's in his head, if he doesn't testify, I think the thethetically if he says, well, yeah, I saw the deceased beat up two other kids just a week ago and he broke the guy's nose and he was bleeding all over the place. That's why I acted the way he did. I did. Well, now you can have a really sound argument, but you can tell the jury and if you discount our theory of self-defense, this is also a case where the judge is giving you a lesser included. So therefore you can say you can determine whether he just he used excessive force under these situations and try to get what's called a compromise. And to Arthur's point, they they rejected all of that. They had manslaughter offered up silver platter and the jury said no. And then when offered the sudden passion mitigating factor on the sentencing phase, they rejected it again because that would have had a maximum of 20 years. And they gave him 35. The jury didn't buy it. They didn't buy it. It's like, I know like maybe the family, the lawyer bargained that people would hear that he was asked to leave the tent and would infer that this was a racial thing and get mad at Austin Metcalf or trying to kick the black kid out in the rain, then laying hands on the black kid as this hulking white boy. They didn't buy it. They knew it was bullshit. They knew you don't stab somebody in the heart for telling you to leave a tent and literally just placing a hand on. Megan, the problem was from their standpoint, as all cases in my experience, it's over in jury selection. When you don't have in jury selection, African Americans on that jury, it's preordained what your verdict is going to be. I remember. Okay, tell me why. I'll tell you why. I remember during the George Zimmerman trial. In fact, Mark O'Mara still teases me. Mark O'Mara was the lawyer for George Zimmerman. As soon as they got that jury and it was an all white jury, I went public and said, the only way Zimmerman loses or O'Mara loses this case is if he falls in trips and hits his head because you are never as a defense lawyer going to change who the person is. Just take a look at our political scene today. Take a look at kind of the left versus right, Republican versus Democrat. You're not changing anybody's hearts and minds as a lawyer. What you're doing is you're picking a jury that will look at what your defense is and either buy it or not buy it. Either the story resonates or the story doesn't resonate. You can't change in a week, in a month, even in a one year trial the way somebody views life. And so once you had that jury for whatever reasons and that jury was selected, you have to course correct to give them whatever arguments. And hopefully the lawyer when he was doing that understood. And by the way, the judge did give him a manslaughter. That wasn't necessarily required when the client doesn't take the stand. That was a victory for the defense. But at the same time, I guarantee you if he still had any neurons firing, the lawyer had tried to question his client. And I can tell you having raised a teenage boy, having represented countless teenage boys, there's rarely the teenage boy that you're going to raise. The teenage boy that you're going to want to put on the stand who's going to withstand a cross examination. It just is virtually impossible. But you can find, let me just say this though, you can absolutely find black jurors who would have convicted Carmelo Anthony in a heartbeat. And white jurors who would have acquitted him had the evidence been there. And I've been wanting to play this. I saw this on X last night and I was like, you know, because I feel like so many people are generalizing about black people because we're seeing a lot of black people outside of this courthouse saying vile things to the Metcalf family and making this a race thing and saying we got to protect ours. They don't speak for all black people. That's this bullshit. Most black people are normal, just like white people, you know, they're good, they're bad, they're in between. And all the things they don't have like saddled with racial grievance all the time and they can't be fair jurors and they can't see justice when it's administered or it's not. And that brings me to this father whose name I don't know. It's just it's a viral video on X. He's sitting there with his, I think they're all boys, he says they're boys, but it's five black children on his lap behind him. A couple of babies so you can never tell gender so much with the babies. I accept him that these are the five black children. And listen to this guy, Sot 19. What do you want us to do? What do you want us to do with this boy? What? I'm lost for words. I don't know what to do. I got five boys. I don't know what, I ain't got nothing to tell them no more. You can't walk away no more. What do you want us to do? I also have five boys. She doesn't know what to do after the carmelos. I put the television on his hands, guys. I'm going to go ahead and try something. Today boys, you go out into school. Don't stab any of the kids. Do you think you guys can do that? You feel good about that, Lee? You feel good about that, Ace? Yeah. Oh, you're an anchor. This is Ace. So is that a good commemoration from everybody? We're not going to stab any kids today? No, we're not. Hey, try that, lady. That might work. I love that. Basic personal accountability. Respect for others, Arthur. I did not think that was the type of flip you were going to play. Neither did I. I did not accept that. I just think that's what Mark was talking about, a jury selection. It's amazing. Think of the black people you know. That's what they're like. The black people I know are like, he stabbed him in the heart. They're not saying like, he deserved it because he placed hands on him and said, leave our tent at a sporting event in which they were rivals. Like that the people outside of that courthouse are nutcases. The people in the media backing up like Jasmine Crockett are nutcase activist types. Regular black people are not having this reaction. Maybe I'm wrong, some are, but I just think the average person, black, white, Hispanic, what have you, understands perfectly well what happened down there. That kid snapped. I don't know why. I don't know what was in the background. He snapped and it was murder. Like he obviously understood plunging a knife into another man's heart so deep and so hard that the heart had a two and a half inch wound and that he nicked the bone behind it. That kid was there to kill Austin Metcalfe in that moment. Go ahead, Arthur. A couple of things. I just want to address what Mark said about a jury and jury selection. I agree with what you also said, Megan, is that there are plenty of black jurors who can think black people and white jurors and can think white people, but Mark is correct. I mean, what I say when I lecture at law schools, Megan, you're going to get a kick out of this, is a trial, it's like making gravy. It's like making Sunday sauce, right? It's like making a banana Sunday sauce. But if you start with bad tomatoes, it doesn't matter how much meatball and sausage and everything. This is so you. You're never going to have a good sauce. So if you start with a bad jury, it doesn't matter how talented you think you are. If they're just so predetermined to be against you. Now, my limited understanding is that's one of the big issues that is going to be raised at the trial here. There were minorities on this jury that just weren't black people. There were minorities, Hispanics, there were Asians. They were three. Apparently there were three African American women who were struck from the jury by the prosecution. Yes. One after the other after the other. And the argument at the appeal is going to be that they were struck by the prosecutor because they were black. Now, the law is. Which is illegal. You can strike jurors for any reason. You can strike them because you don't like their hair color. You cannot strike them because you don't like their skin color. There are like the things. There are a few things that you cannot strike a juror, a juror, a prospective juror based on race is one of them. But they have a defense to that. They said they were all teachers and that's why they didn't want that. If you have to have a race neutral reason as to why you dismiss those two or three people. Can I ask Arthur a question? And the judge believed that. Yeah, I was going to say Arthur, if you ever met a prosecutor who couldn't give you a pretext as to why they used somebody, what kind of nonsense is and why is a prosecutor who's got the burden of proof? Why do they need a preemptory challenge? I think, you know, they have the burden of proof. Why should they be able to exercise peremptories at least in federal court? Somebody understands that it's an uneven playing field and the defense gets more peremptories than the prosecution. I've always thought the prosecutor shouldn't even have a preemptory. They're so complicated. There goes the president. So, but Megan, what people bleeding heart, criminal defense, bleeding heart, you're going to take away somebody's liberty. Why not prove your case? If you think the case is so. Why can't both sides have a few in their back pocket who they get to bounce for no cause? Exactly. But Megan, Megan, the law is hanging through here. It's a teacher. It just happens to be a black teacher. I don't like the case. It happened on a school ground. What you know exactly what the prosecution was thinking. I know what the prosecution is. These three are going to get on there and they're going to be like, I'm the authority because I'm the teacher. Let me tell you how these things work. A lot of lawyers, criminal defense and prosecution say, I don't want some expert going on there. I'm the expert. I'll tell them what to think. Let me guess. Let me guess. If they had a cop on that jury, the prosecutor would have bounced the cop because he didn't want the authority. Come on, Megan, let's not be, let's not be naive. They were bouncing the people for a specific reason. We can make the argument any other way you want. You're alleging racism and in violation of the law with zero foundation. I'm alleging. See, this is where I think people get mistaken. They say it's racism. No, it is bouncing. And when I say bouncing, I mean using a peremptory on somebody because you think as the prosecutor, that person is going to have an affinity for the defendant. That does not necessarily, when people are going to be on the prosecutor's side, they're going to be on the prosecutor's side. And when people say, well, that's. But it's illegal if they do it for race. You're accusing them of violating their ethics. It's illegal. But how do you prove it's illegal as long as the prosecutor is clever enough to give you a pretextual reason? But it's going to hold. Why? Arthur, you tell me because the defense tried this, even that loser defense lawyer who was terrible did try this. He stood up and he was like, she's he they just struck the three black jurors. And the prosecutor said, that's because they're educators and I don't want three teachers on the jury. And he said, you, you let a white woman go on the jury. But it sounds like she wasn't a teacher. I don't like that. If the white woman who he, who he let go on the jury is a teacher and has the same resume as the three black people, now we're talking, but the judge wasn't persuaded by the facts as they stood. You are correct, Megan. You know, you, you, I don't know the reason why they didn't want her on the jury. The teachers was for the authority part as much as the sympathy part. They're going to be teachers there with young people all the time. They're going to know the consequences of their verdict if he gets found guilty. He's going to spend majority of his life in prison. So that's why as a prosecutor, I would not want a teacher who are with children. I mean, their life is children and it's protecting children and enriching children. So their DNA is to help children and this kid is basically a child. So that's why I would say judge, you know, and I would make that exact argument I just made on the record to the judge. Here's why they're going to be overly sympathetic to the jury. They're going to have to the, to the defendant. They're going to have a prejudice against the prosecution and for the defendant because they're going to look at prosecution. Not as someone who's trying to do justice, but it's trying to say, hey, one kid is dead and now we're going to kill another kid. So that's the, but the more you give the judge to say this is a very race neutral reason that the stronger it is. That's why I don't think this is a strong appellate issue for the defense. Okay, but here's, here's what's crazy now. Now you've got, there was at least one juror who was bounced because he said during voir dire quote, I don't know if I feel right putting a brother in jail by, I mean, I appreciate the guy's honesty, but here's what's happening now. Here's, here's now what we're getting in reaction to this verdict by the activist class. Class this is from the gin and juice podcast. Take a listen to thought 17. If they say, can you be fair? Don't say, no, I'm not, I'm not going to put a black man in jail. Don't say that you have to go and be like, no, I will hear the evidence. I can be fair when damn near half of the black people who could have been on the jury. Counsel themselves out, you know, don't do that when you go up there, say, no, I have never heard about this case. I can be fair. Say that. Okay. And then mean it, believe it a little bit. Don't tell them you can't be impartial. I believe in the rule of law. So don't go in there and act like all of a sudden you have to be the most honest person you've ever been. Yeah, that's interesting. Don't be interesting. By the way, if you don't think that applies for pro prosecution jurors, I can give you, I have caught so many stealth jurors who lied to get onto a jury to fry the client. It applies to both sides. So, Maggie, you know, how do you get past that? Let me just tell you, you know where it happened really extensively? The first Harvey Weinstein trial I did, they would come in, we interviewed them one on one and they, oh, I could be so fair. I could do a pop up, whatever swearing on their children that they would give them a fair trial. And then what they were struck for whatever reason, we followed up on their Facebook and their Instagram and they were like, I was almost on the jury to convict that Bert ball off you. I couldn't wait to send the jail. By the way, by the way, I think it was so blatantly. After during the Scott Peterson's trial, we did what's called in California back in the day, Hovey Vordyre, you bring people in individually. So we did. In Weinstein, that's what we did. Yeah. And I actually had a woman who I liked. She said, oh, I changed my mind when I first heard I was coming in this case, but my dad told me what if it was your brother. And I thought, wow, this is great. I get back to the hotel where I'm staying. Somebody sent me a chat room. It's 20 years ago. And she says, I really, I really hoodwinked that defense lawyer. I'm going to get it on the jury and I'm going to fry his client. I was making, you know, the way the supermodel, I guess, Gigi, dad, you know, that is, because I didn't. Yeah, she did it. When she walks in with my coat, I was like, Gigi, I don't know. Isn't that a Broadway show? I don't know what is. So she comes in one on one. She must have caught your eye a little. I'm not buying that. She was like, she looks like a 12 year old boy. It's not my thing, but she, she swore to us, absolutely. I could be fair and we're like, well, you're in that industry. Isn't it? Aren't you going to be by? No, no, no. He deserves a fair trial. But I forget which side struck her. And oh, you should have seen what she wrote on Facebook. I was so close to sending that fat SOB to jail for life. I mean, they just blatantly on their children on the stack of Bible's lie to your face. She, she, she's a 511 supermodel, but okay. I accept that she didn't catch your eye at all. 12 year old boy. I was going to say, I don't know. I know Mary. I don't know what junior high. Mary and gorgeous. Geez. I can know my wife. All right. Well, let me keep going because there's a lot more to get to. So, so does anyone think this appeal has any sort of a chance? They may raise the juror challenge, you know, that, that they're going to argue that these jurors were clearly stricken because they were black and that was illegal. I mean, that, that is the kind of thing. And if an appellate court decided to revisit it, that could get you a new trial, but there's no evidence of it. I mean, like they'd have to have something very strong. Would they not? Have you guys ever seen a new trial granted on those grounds and was it stronger grounds than this? I have, but you would have to have something to your point. You're absolutely correct. It's a heavy lift. You would need some kind of a declaration. You would need some kind of really compelling evidence that somebody was either, you know, one of the things that I've found Arthur may have seen this, you have a jury strike list by the prosecution. If there was an initial a B or something for black or some. I've seen that. I've actually seen that happen where that was discovered years later and it ended up being the basis for a habeas to get somebody. Lord, no, maybe that lucky. That would be an amazing. You seem to have a really valid issue. You seemed, I did not pay enough attention to have an opinion on the defense attorney's performance, but you, I don't, he was dreadful. Okay. So then one of the issues, one of the things you could bring up is ineffective assistance of counts. That was a very high bar. Okay. Can we talk about what the dreadfulness was? And let me run it by you guys as the seasoned experts who will do this for a living now still. This guy, for example, he got up there and he said to the one witness, you and I have barely talked, right? Like I talked to you for two minutes or something and the guy was like, yeah, you know, what's he against Steve? Yeah, it was his own witness. It was his witness. And he's like, we don't know each other. We basically haven't spoken at all. And the guy was like, right. And then that guy gave his testimony that was supposed to be helpful to Camilo Anthony. It wasn't, it wound up not being that helpful on cross examination. He was exposed as having completely collapsed. And then he adopted the prosecution's theory of the case. And the prosecutor got up there and he's like, you and I have talked many times, right? Like we know each other. I have talked to you and he's like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know you are. So like on the one side, you have a diligent prosecutor who's been, you know, all along speaking to witnesses, figuring out what they're going to say, figuring out his cross examination. And you have a defense lawyer who called the witness, who doesn't know anything about what he's going to say. And the thing implodes. Now I feel like that's just one example. I thought he was an ineffective from start to finish. I just thought it was, he should have done what you said, Arthur. He should have said, here's our, our main defense, but here's our alternative argument. If you, if you don't accept that, and here's all the proof that, you know, heat of passion or whatever, he didn't, he wasn't effective on any of this, but you have to prove not not only was it ineffective assistance, you have to prove that if you had a garrigos or idola in there, the result would have been different, right? That it was, it actually did affect the outcome that you would have had a serious likelihood of an acquittal if you had effective assistance. And this case was open and shut. The facts really weren't even in dispute. So doesn't that kill that appeal? If the kid, if the kid signed the declaration, like, like Mark was saying, he says, I really wanted to testify and my defense, my lawyer stopped me from testifying. I wanted to tell my side of the story, but my lawyer, who's twice my age and where my family paid him and he spoke to know his thing, he told me, no, no, no, you can't testify. And I needed to tell my story and judges really believe that. And it is self-defense case. So it is, you know, it is, it is very relevant. It's not like a high in the sky, but it's look, I could just tell you in New York, we're getting an ineffective assistance. The council is very difficult. The key case to do with a lawyer literally sleeping at the table where it's on the record. The judge is like, Mr. Jones, Mr. Jones, are you sleeping right now? I was tired. He was tired. Stop it. Arthur, that was a Texas case. The sleeping lawyer was out of Texas. I did not know that. Yeah. And that's where this case is. Well, do you do you disagree, Mark, that it's next to impossible on an effective assistance? Ineffective assistance is a very high bar because it isn't whether or not if you had Johnny Cochran or you had the second coming of Clarence Darrow. It's basically, are you, you know, I always joke about probable causes been reduced. Are you breathing? The is my client breathing. But for ineffective assistance, it's not a high bar to be thought of as competent. And basically, judges say, could this have been a tactical decision? Could this lawyer, is there a way to spin whatever decision the client is complaining about that the lawyer had a reason to do it tactically? If they did, the judges are dismissive of it. The reason why I brought up him testifying Mark said it earlier. And when it comes to a trial, the main decisions that only the defendant can make is to take a plea or not to take a plea and to testify or not to testify. And so that the testify or not testifying, that's that's a third rail. If the judges believed that this kid really wanted to testify and the judge and his lawyer prevented him from testifying, that's something that I'm going to all say, is they're going to take it into consideration. Well, you're wrong. Arthur's point. I I make it a habit of having the judge do an inquiry just so that you don't go down this road when the process and have the judge do it in the record. And in the instance, as I mentioned before, to Arthur's point, I actually will take the client into chambers, have it have it transcribed if they're taking the stand over my objection. I've only done it a couple of times. But I think of the one where a client did it after I thought I had tried the best defense case within the prosecutions you could ever do. And he did it over my over my vehement objection. And, you know, day one, he did well. Day two, he disintegrated. So that's that's how it goes. That's why you don't want that. All right. Stand by because there is breaking news right now in the Blake lively Justin Baldoni case. We have a ruling from the judge on her demand that he pay her legal fees plus punitive damages times three. She wants them troubled or tripled. We've got a ruling that's next. Let me tell you something. When you sign your insurance policy for some brokers, that's the finish line. Handshake commission done. See ya. Then you may never hear from them again, or at least not until it's time for a renewal when they become your best friend. Once again, your business runs all year. And so do the gaps and the risk. And this is why I want to tell you about SuperShore. This is a great idea for a company. If your company has more than 25 employees, whether you're the owner, the CFO or HR manager, it can be too complex to just buy a policy online. SuperShore is the super agency built for you licensed in every state for your business insurance and employee benefits with year round support for you and your team. At SuperShore.com, you can access tools like fine print facts, which translates your current policy into plain English. So you can see what's covered and what's not. Plus a business value calculator, so you can estimate what your business is worth and know what actually needs protecting. Go to SuperShore.com slash Megan, one super agency, one powerful platform, all of your policies in one place with a super helpful person who wants to make your life easier. Go to SuperShore.com slash Megan, paid for by SuperShore Insurance Agency LLC, a licensed insurance company. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger? This is where Berna comes in. That's BYRNA and Berna's less lethal launchers are equipped with tear gas and kinetic ammunition designed to incapacitate an attacker for up to 40 minutes. Berna is excited to introduce the all new compact launcher too. It's sleek, it's slim, and it hits like a sledgehammer. The same size as a smartphone allowing women to conceal, carry everywhere comfortably and with confidence. It fires at 400 feet per second. That's a lot of power to stop aggressors in their tracks. Their pistols are American made and hand assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana, with over 80% of the components in the compact launcher being sourced in the USA. Berna is legal in all 50 states, requires no background checks, and can be shipped directly to your door. And Berna is trusted by hundreds of police departments too. Try before you buy. Visit Berna.com to find a Berna dealer partner near you. That's BYRNA.com. Fort. Series XM 111 and on the Series XM app. Mark Garagos and Arthur Idallah are back with me now and guys, big news out of the Baldoni versus Lively dispute. The judge in the case, Louis J. Lyman, has agreed that Justin Baldoni must pay Blake Lively's attorney's fees expended in defending his defamation claim against her. He has objected her request for additional punitive or triple damages, which is a very good thing for Justin. The attorney's fees less good. This is her submission under a policy under California law referred to as section 47.1, which was enacted to protect me too victims, sexual harassment or sexual abuse victims, who file claims and then get countersued for defamation by defendants who wish to harass them, who wish to silence them. It was a way of empowering them against more empowered, more richer, more famous, more connected defendants that they may be suing for sexual harassment, who try to bully them into silence with a counterclaim for defamation. I know that because we interviewed the woman behind the law, the woman whose idea it was and the woman who was the architect of the law. Her name is Victoria Burke and she was very against this law being used by Blake Lively. She was, she came on and said, this is the last thing I had in mind. She's more powerful than he is. She's better connected. She's richer. And she admitted, she revealed to us exclusively that Blake Lively's lawyers had come to Victoria Burke to say, we really want Blake to be the face of this law and to take it national. So it's not just California and three other states, which it is now, but it's 50 states. And that Blake Lively will be the champion for this law who brings it everywhere. And this woman, Victoria, who unlike Blake Lively is an actual survivor of sexual assault, said, no, I don't want your help, you weird lady. I'm doing a good job on my own and I have a strategy and I'd much rather stay under the radar than have you go out there and your stupid Met Gala dress and try to make yourself the face of my law. So this judge has kind of split the baby from the look of it saying, all right, under the explicit terms of 47.1, I guess I have to give her her attorney's fees, but I'm not doing any of that other nonsense. And it is a loss for team Baldoni, which made the argument that this law couldn't even be enforced. And then it's probably unconstitutional. They wanted him to like not give her anything, but they didn't quite get that. But it's much better to just get her fees awarded to her mark than to get her fees and punies and times three. I look, if I was prognosticating and I did prognosticate and truth be told, talk to Brian about it. I didn't ever think they were going to get trouble or punitive damages. I expected only because there is part of what was built into the settlement agreement. It was a no appeal. So the judge basically could act with impunity and he didn't have to worry about the circuit reversing him. The strict language of the statute would seem to suggest that you have to award fees, but there's still yet another battle. Even though the order says case closed, they're going to submit their fees, requesters and costs. And then the judge is going to whittle it down. Brian's team is going to file something that says, no, this was not what was intended and they're going to go back and forth. The judge is going to make the call, but it's not going to come out of Justin Baldoni's pocket. This is all going to, it's going to be a fight between the insurance companies over who's going to pay this. So it's really much ado about nothing and confirms what you said, Megan, that that settlement was a massive loss for Blake Lively because she paid out of pocket to her attorneys for the entire case. She's not going to get all of her attorney's fees back. She's only going to get a siloed specific discreet amount that are cabined to and tethered to the defense of that counter suit, not the entire case. So it's not like she's getting some windfall. She's getting a percentage, some small percentage of what she's spent on this case. She got no damages. And as you said, the woman who actually authored the laws running as fast away from her, she possibly can. Here's my question for you, Arthur. She hired like 25 lawyers or something. She ridiculously overspent because she and her husband, Ryan, are swimming in money, unlike Justin Baldoni. So when the judge gets a submission of what fees were expended, only in defending the defamation claim, she doesn't get to reimbursed. She's the one who filed this case. She filed sexual harassment. He countersued for defamation. So she's not going to get everything. She's not going to get how much it took her lawyers to draft her complaint or to serve process on Justin. It's from the time he filed that counter claim, that's when it would start ticking and they're going to have to give an itemized. This is how much was spent in defending that claim. But even so, if they look at that and it's totally excessive because she hired all these laws, she went balls to the wall, she used Ryan Reynolds money to do it. Is she entitled to all of that or does it have to be reasonable? The judge, what Mark said is true. The judge will and also what Mark said, it probably will be a lawyer from the insurance company that's going to have to lay this money out saying, hold on a second, first of all, and I'll give some hypotheticals, they're billing out at $3,000 an hour. And we can tell you that the average lawyer in this California is bills out at $1,200 an hour. So whatever that is, let's take, let's lop that off. Now they have five lawyers working on one motion and let's lop that off. So they may put in a bill for $2 million and they might wind up with getting $600,000 in the long run. And don't forget, you know, we talked about earlier jury selection and people's prejudices. It's a federal judge who makes, I don't know, $350,000 a year looking at these bills to see that some lawyer is going to make $3 million on this. It's a little bit like a slow down cowboy. I'm not giving you all of this money. Okay. I got a job. You're going to get rich. Yeah, exactly. Do you know him? I don't know him. I knew his father, I'm a judge lineman, his father was a, was a, yeah, I mean, a historic legend and kind of an Edward Bennett Williams level of expertise. I don't get the impression just based on what I've either seen or read about his temperament and his kind of rulings in this case, that he's going to write anybody a large check or allow anybody to have a large check written in this. And the truth is though, Megan, it's not probably going to hurt these lawyers because as you accurately stated, they've already got paid a ton of money on the initial suit. So this is just the, the other piece of it. But you know, make in general, not necessarily this law, I have no objection to these kinds of cases where attorney's fees can be awarded. I think it should be done more often because it would prevent frivolous lawsuits. It would prevent people saying, I just want to break their chops. I'll give you a hundred thousand dollars. Let me just break your chops and see what happens. And if they spent, you spent a hundred on your lawyer, but they've been 300 on their lawyer. So now you're on the hook. So your lawyer says, look, you're going to give me a hundred. I gotta tell you, things don't go our way. You could lose money you gave me and the money you gave, then he's given his lawyers and the judge can give you rebel damage. So this should be a little bit more of accountability or potential punishment. If you come at them with something that is, that really is frivolous and you know, you're not going to win, but it's not to the level where you can't file it. So I'm not necessarily against the kind of laws. I believe it is busting the chop, not breaking the chop. If we drill down, isn't it? You're busting my chops. Okay. All right. That's what they say in Albany. In Brooklyn, I think we say, don't stop breaking my chop. My father's inside. He's from the Bronx. I'll ask you. In Brooklyn, they say bust. Okay. That's that you're wrong there too. Listen, when it comes to cursing, Meg and Kelly, I'm not in your league. So I will defer. And you bust chops. I submit my case to the jury of the MK show. Please email in as our verdict. Who is right on this? It's Megan. You can say stop busting my Williams. My balls to look how sweet you are. You won't say. My mother watches this. So I have to be. She knows about me. She's, she already forgives me. Okay. Here's the like real question though. Worth it. Mark, you know, like that's my, my number one takeaway is so worth it. Like the defamation case was Justin Baldoni saying, these are lies. This woman is a psychopath. She's claiming I busted in on her when she was breastfeeding and I have evidence to show you she invited me in there saying, don't worry. I don't mind if you come in while I'm breastfeeding. You know, like she time and time again, she made these allegations against me, which were so false. They were false to the point where I felt I had no choice but to say to the world. She is falsely accusing me to the point of defamation. And now let me tell you everything about the defamation I'm suffering. This whole thing turned the narrative on its head. You had him like labeled as a me too disgusting foul pervert by Blake Lively and her rich husband. And when Brian filed that counterclaim, everything changed. So I don't really care what modicum of attorney's fees his attorneys or his insurance has to pay. Worth it. Well, you're not kidding. And you were old enough, some of us to remember the stri-sand effect. That's been supplanted now. You can call it the Lively effect. Never has somebody so lit themselves on fire. And for absolutely no reason. I mean, it was a stunning to me that they did it in the first place and they doubled down and they missed the perfect opportunity when Judge Lyman gutted Baldoni's case is counterclaim. At that point, declare victory and get out and make some kind of a statement. But the idea of continuing and continuing and just continuing to just drive into the center median just made absolutely no sense to me. Yes. Yes. She made herself into another Amber Herd and she will not recover from that. Got a nice dress, Meg. Got that nice dress. You should borrow it. The Sherbert. You and Doug will look great walking around town with that. You go for it. She's so disingenuous. By the way, speaking of disingenuous, did you guys watch the miracle at MSG the other night when the Knicks turned it around after being down 30 points? Oh, yeah. I had like, got to the office, have a video of us exploding when it happened. It was only, I'm not even a sports person. It was only like anything we've ever seen. I was sitting there with my daughter and my husband. It was like, no, what? They were down 30. Then they were down 15. It was like, what? What? Okay. But the reason I'm bringing this up is Taylor Swift was there in the front row pretending to be a Knicks fan. I'm like, oh yeah, here I am. I'm so excited. Oh, the Knicks. By the way, she was just at a Knicks Cleveland game. Cavaliers rooting for Cleveland. Well, that was her husband, right? Isn't that her husband? She thinks she's kidding. Isn't that her husband's team, Cleveland? I mean, we do have marriages. She was there rooting for them. For the other team. I didn't realize she was rooting. Yes. Okay. Well, she was there with him. They were rooting for the Cavs. She's a fake New York Knicks fan and she's a fake person. You know, Arthur, were you even born the last time the Knicks was? Yeah, I was six. I don't remember, but I was six, but I was there in 99 when they were in the finals. I was, I was right there. And that was a fantastic situation. But this is the other night was just sick. Yeah, the other night was a miracle. The games one and two, which were in Texas, but I was in the city walking in the area of MSG and walking down the street as baskets are being made and the cheers from the city and the energy in the city. It was just a wonderful thing. You couldn't, you couldn't have asked. I'm looking right now, I'm sitting here, Megan. I'm looking at the NBA store, their big flagship stores diagonally across the street. Not only has it been packed for two weeks, this thing opened like till 10, 11 o'clock at night. What it has done this for the New York economy, this big run in New York fantastic. The bars, the restaurant needed this. We was settled with Mayor Mom Donnie for the love of God. We needed a W. All right. Last but not least, Nick Reiner. This is in your backyard, Mark. Nick Reiner, the son of Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner, who was accused of killing his parents, is working to get his trust fund, which has got a lot of money in it, $1.5 million to pay for his criminal defense. He's gonna get it. And it's a very interesting defense because, or a question, because normally like in New York, we have the son of Sam Law and out there in California, you have something similar. It doesn't allow you to profit off of your crime. But his argument is that this was a trust he was entitled to long ago, like when he turned 30 and for some reason just didn't get access to it. So it's not like a will, like an insurance policy, right, Mark? So what do you make of it? Is he gonna get it? A lot of the chatter online has been how do you kill your parents or be accused of killing your parents and then profit from it? And that's a separate issue. This is a trust, if you believe what is being actually filed, that was formed when he was a youngster and a child. And it was one of these trusts that was set up when parents are worried that it's gonna screw up their kids and make them trust fund babies. So it was not supposed to kick in until he turned 30. It was not distributed when he was 30 and they're gonna litigate that. But my guess is, as a practical matter, when a judge sees this application and understands, look, right now, the taxpayers are paying for his defense through the Office of Public Defender. If I free up money here from the trust, you pay Alan Jackson, that's going to be a zero sum game of money that we don't have to pay as taxpayers. So I expect that that money will get freed up. Wow. The financial aspect to the taxpayers is right on. I mean, Megan, should a guy who's got $1.5 billion in the bank get, you know, in this case, they'll give him three lawyers, two power legals as secretary. You know, it'll be a whole law firm literally working on this case. And the people in California are paying for it. You know, if it was in federal court, maybe the federal judge would say, because they're much more strict in federal court about getting a free lawyer. He would say, no, no, no, let me see all of your finances, all of your assets. No, no, no, you're not getting a free lawyer. So you got, you know, even $75,000 there, go find a lawyer. There's some guy out there for $75,000 is going to take your case. So, you know, it does have something to do with why should the taxpayers be paying for his defense when there's all this money's there sitting and he's never going to use it anyway, because he's except for his commissary behind bars. I know, but like the siblings, I'm sure are angry at the thought of their parents. It's really the parents money, you know, that they gifted to him. He's, I guess, 32. So he was, he was supposed to receive a disbursement at age 30, which didn't happen while Michelle and Rob were still alive. And then another one at 35. I don't know. I can see, I can see the argument against doing it, but I take your point of they'd rather saddle the trust with the burden and not the California tax player. Guys, a great discussion all around. Have a great weekend. Go Nix. Thank you. Great seeing both of you. Bye, you guys. Likewise. All right. Have a great weekend. Weekend to all of you as well. We'll see you Monday and do, do send in those emails about the show, about life, about anything on your mind. It's Megan at Megan Kelly.com. See you Monday. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.