Generations

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? How did this have been made to fit? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Campsite Media. Gabe Ortiz, one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in the state of Texas, knows how to run a criminal investigation, how to organize and deploy resources, how to ask questions and evaluate evidence, how to build a case against the bad guys. In fact, when his brother Larry was murdered, he was a major in the criminal investigation division of the Texas Department of Public Safety. Criminal investigations were literally written into his title. Now, any brother, and especially one with those particular skills, would want to track down the people who killed Larry. But Gabe is also a professional. Criminal investigations are supposed to be unbiased. Facts can't be colored by emotion. Decisions can't be made out of anger or vengeance. There are also jurisdictional boundaries. A murder in Brazoria County is typically investigated by authorities in Brazoria County. Not a major for a state agency based in Austin. even if, or especially if, the victim was that major's brother. Gabe is aware of all of this. So in those first hours and days after Larry died, he's trying to stay out of the way. He doesn't want to interfere, or even appear to interfere, with a proper investigation. But if he's asked, he can still be helpful. I got a call from investigators, and they said, hey, your nephew is not really being forthcoming. Gabe's nephew is Larry's son, Larry III. He got that call not long after the shooting. Like, we feel like there's a lot more that he knows. And that really pissed me off. Because your dad has just been murdered. You need to tell it all. You need to cooperate fully. Tell them everything you know. Did you talk to him? Yeah, I did. One of the things I asked him is like, did you know about this? Were you involved in this? And he said, no, Uncle Gabe, I would never do that. Like, why wouldn't do that? And I'm like, well, what do you know? I said, you need to fucking cooperate with law enforcement. That was your dad, but that was my brother. And if you know something, and if there's some connections to the people that you know that were involved in this, then you need to cooperate. I said, do you understand me? From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, this is The Brothers Ortiz, Episode 8, Generations. I'm Sean Flynn. Third was always getting in trouble for something. This is Gloria, Larry's mother and Third's grandmother. We reached out to Third multiple times and through multiple people, and he never got back to us. But his family, sisters, aunt, uncle, grandmother, they all tell the same basic story, that Third had been in and out of trouble for years, mostly minor and mostly involving drugs. Larry would always pay him out of jail or, you know, give him money. He knew Third was doing things that he wasn't supposed to be doing. He wanted to tell him that it wasn't right. But I'm seeing in Third thinking, hey, you know, you used to do it, So why are you trying to tell me not to, you know? Oh, man, that broke his heart. And here's Antonio, who knew Larry since they were kids. I mean, he tried his best he could with Third, but, you know, he was a grown man. And I'd tell Larry all the time, I said, man, he's got to find his own way. He's got to find his own way. But he tried. He always tried to look out for Third. The situation with Third, which is my nephew, it was pretty tough for him. And this is Wade, Larry's brother-in-law. But being that he was a father and kind of went down that same road too, I would say maybe he even took that personal. Larry didn't want him to go down that path and was not going to enable or make it easy for him. Cousin Vanessa. But then at the same time, Third could always piggyback off of who Larry was. And those connections were still there for him. And I do also feel like when Larry was alive that Third could get away with a lot because of who his dad was. It's like, okay, I'm not going to beat your ass because I know who your dad is and I'm cool with your pops, but you're on some ho shit. Like, I think that being who he was saved him from getting his ass beat a lot. When we got there, it was a pretty chaotic scene. This is Lieutenant Jeff Mink with the Brazoria County Sheriff's Office. He was one of the first detectives on the scene after Larry was shot. Third was very emotional. We had one investigator try to interview him. It was not working. He was right around hollering. Third's friend Lucas is at the house, too. He's not being any more useful. Here's Third's sister, Larissa. He's like, I'm not talking to no cops. I was just robbed not too long ago, and the cops didn't do nothing for me, and da-da-da-da-da-da. Larissa saw Lieutenant Mink, who she knew. It's a small town. She said she wanted to talk to him. I remember telling him, like, I don't trust Lucas. I feel like he knows more than what he's leading. So y'all need to question him. Y'all need to press him and just see what he will tell y'all. So the decision was to pull Lucas out of that environment. Mink corralled Lucas and drove him to the sheriff's office. Lucas, for the record, wasn't charged or implicated in any way in the death of his friend's dad. We wanted to talk to Lucas, but we couldn't find him. Even his father didn't know how to reach him. At the sheriff's office, Mink thought Lucas was hesitant. They weren't giving us straight answers. We weren't getting, even in the interview room at the sheriff's office, Lucas was, you know, just not wanting to give the information up. But he did give investigators one very useful piece of information. the Instagram handle for a woman he'd met up with at the club. It wasn't much, but it was enough to get started, like finding the first corner of a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle. With that piece, just like with the jigsaw, Mink and the rest of the team could begin putting together the full picture of what they allege happened that night, the how and the why and eventually the who. That username led investigators to a woman named Alina. That night, she was 20 years old, with a round face and long dark hair, and the outline of a heart tattooed on her throat. We're not using her full name because it's not important right now. She's been convicted of nothing illegal involving the death of Larry Ortiz. She just happened to know Lucas from Instagram. Third had left the beach house earlier in the evening, about the time Larry was winding things down. He drove over the bridge to Freeport, then headed inland, where he met Lucas. They started off there, downtown Lake Jackson, drinking there first. This is Larissa again. Then over time, they ended up at 1504, which was a nightclub in Freeport. It's no longer there anymore. The owner of 1504 happened to be Larissa's old softball coach and an old friend of Larry's. And later, after everything happened, she reached out to Larissa. She was like telling me what she's seen and stuff and how they were acting. and basically Lucas was splashing a whole bunch of money and buying all the girls drinks buying all kinds of people drinks And this is where Alina comes in While Lucas is in the club apparently buying drinks and flashing cash he opens up Instagram starts chatting with her She's with a friend, another dark-haired 20-year-old. Her name is Ainsley. Third and Lucas invite Ainsley and Alina to meet them. But by the time the women arrive, 1504 is closing. They'd missed last call. But they're not ready to call it at night. Third has the key to an apartment nearby, except it's empty, just a couch, nothing else. They decide to go to the beach house, where Third's parents, his siblings, his nieces and nephews are all staying. It's just frustrating because it's like, you knew that you barely had room to lay your head to sleep. Why would you invite extra people? You know, you weren't being considerate. You weren't thinking. And then you're like, you knew there were kids there. Why would you bring girls back? But you didn't care. You were just thinking about yourself and your greed and having fun. Third and Lucas drive back to Treasure Island, Alina and her friend following a Toyota Corolla. I can't tell you exactly what time it is, but I remember getting woken up by my brother. He came in the room that I was in and was like, I'm so fucked up. Third, Lucas and the two women go to one of the other bedrooms. Alina's on her phone, texting, but no one thinks anything of it. I laid my head down for like not even 0.2 seconds. I started hearing a lot of noise. And that's when I kind of seen what I seen, which was a man with a mask standing in front of the door. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Alina had been texting with two other people, one who called himself Big 3E and the other who went by Baby Ape. Alina had been texting with them for almost six hours since 9.03 Friday night. But the relevant parts, the parts that led to Larry being dead, started at 1.40 in the morning when Alina reported that she and Ainsley were at the club with Third and Lucas. Six minutes later, she told Baby Ape and Big 3E that they were leaving. Baby Ape told her that if Third and Lucas got touchy, just play it cool, but we're quoting here. Don't let them do too much. Alina continued texting with them while she followed Third's truck out to Treasure Island. At 2.38 in the morning, after she'd walked through the main floor of the beach house, she texted to the group, This hoe got kids in here. Minutes later, Big 3E and two other people kicked in the front door Very shortly after that, Big 3E shot Larry in the chest What investigators allege is that Elena, Ainsley, Baby Ape, Big 3E, and two others were all working together as part of the same drug rip crew In that scenario, in that theory, Elena and her friend would have been the bait Their job, again, allegedly, would have been to get close to the targets, to Lucas and Third, to get access, gather intelligence. How many people are there? Do they have guns? That sort of thing. And then characters like Big 3E and the other two who kicked in the door, they would have been the muscle. And someone like Baby Ape, he would have been coordinating the whole thing. To investigators, that's exactly what this looked like, a drug ripoff. which is neither complicated nor uncommon. Bad guys stealing from other bad guys, or at least guys who are doing things that aren't legal. What are they going to do? Call the cops? No. What I learn is my nephew and his friend Lucas were going to a lot of bars, nightclubs in Houston. and apparently this crew they see them flashing money um they're living this lavish lifestyle and and obviously i think it's just and they look like they have a lot more money than what they really do so yeah they thought hey this is a this is an easy mark and you know we'll hit a lick and get a little cash and maybe a little dope the crew was looking for the right opportunity to strike Investigators believe, and that Baby Ape text thread suggests, that Third and Lucas were not the original targets that night. Baby Ape and Big 3E were talking about other victims, and Alina and Ainsley were allegedly at other clubs, and all of them were sharing their location so they wouldn't lose each other. Again, allegedly. But for whatever reasons, those other prospects fell apart. And then Alina got hit up on Instagram by Lucas and Third. This was all happenstance. This operation, if you can call it that, went wrong from the very beginning. Let's start with the alleged targets. Lucas and Third weren't really worth robbing. They just liked to front. You know, basically just setting yourself up. Here's Larissa again. I get you want to impress girls, but you're not impressing girls. You're basically getting yourself set up every time. because there's guys out here that literally prey on people like that. Or they send girls who think they're interested in you and they're really not. And the whole time, y'all don't even have anything. So stuff that could have been prevented had you not been flashing dollar bills and $20 and stuff. Second, it was rushed. Alina didn't even have time to count how many people were in the house, let alone determine if any of them had weapons. They didn't. Or if there was a big protective guy like Larry inside. In fact, one of the last things she texted was that she was trying to see who was there. And she typed that message immediately after, this hoe got kids in here. Even in prison, there's a code, you know? You don't fuck with kids. Apparently, that same code does not apply to a lot of robbery crews. A lot of them get, you know, they're younger and younger, and, you know, they just don't have the same code of ethics. Obviously my brother was murdered and that the tragedy but I also thought and it what really pissed me off is okay you go into the house and you realize there kids Just fucking leave. Go somewhere else. Find somebody else. And finally, one of them shot and killed Larry. An apparent drug ripoff that they expected would never be reported is now a murder case, and one that's going to get an extraordinary amount of attention from the authorities. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain? A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brazoria County officials ran the investigation into Larry's murder. It happened in their jurisdiction, so of course they took the lead. Starting with that first Instagram handle from Lucas. They built a case against six people spread across four Texas counties. You'll hear more from Lieutenant Mink in a later episode about how exactly all those pieces were assembled into a whole. As for Gabe, he made his early phone calls, but he mostly tried to stay out of the way. He had to wait, just like the rest of the family. It's probably about a month, a little over a month later, that they were able to get the murder warrants. And I remember sitting at a restaurant with two other officers when I get the phone call that, hey, we've got good news. We just got the judge to sign off on these murder warrants for all six of the suspects. And I remember sitting at the table and I was like, fuck yeah. Big 3E from the text thread. His real name is Richard Horn Jr. He's an ex-con and a tattoo artist who, at the time, lived in Seguin, which is near San Antonio. He was the one who shot Larry, the one who actually killed him. But the other five were also charged with murder. That's because the state of Texas has what's called a joint venture theory of crime. If you commit felonies with your friends, like, say, armed robbery or home invasion, and someone gets killed, you're all on the hook. So a magistrate signed murder warrants for Alina and Ainsley, who allegedly set up third in Lucas. There were also warrants for the other two people who allegedly kicked in the beach house door and pointed guns at children. Guadalupe, who was Richard's girlfriend, and Marvin, who lived with them in their trailer in Seguin. The last warrant was for Baby Ape. His name is Kirsten, and he allegedly was the organizer. In the text thread, he gave orders like, turn the whole house upside down, shoeboxes and all. And at the very end, when everything had gone so terribly wrong, he typed, delete group chat. The plan for authorities in early March 2023 is to arrest all six of them at once so that they can't be tipping each other off. The problem, though, again, is that they're not all in the same place. All six were spread out in different counties. And they said, hey, Rosoria County doesn't have the resources to execute all these arrest warrants. Can DPS help? DPS is the Texas Department of Public Safety, where Gabe at the time was a major. And I'm like, abso-fucking-lutely we can. Everybody in DPS knew that my brother was murdered. And all it took was, hey, man, we're trying to execute these murder warrants. Can we get, oh, yeah, bro, like, tell us when and where. Like, we're on it. Whatever you need. Richard Horn and Guadalupe Navarro were presumed to be at their trailer in Seguin. So we had a team go there, and one of the detectives said, hey, if you want to meet us somewhere and give us a set of your handcuffs, will put those handcuffs on Richard Horn. In case that's not clear, a detective was offering to click Gabe's personal state-issued handcuffs around the wrists of the man who killed Gabe's brother. And I was like, that'd be fucking awesome. So I'm going to meet with these investigators. But then those investigators call back. They've been diverted. Now they're heading toward Houston. But there's more. and oh by the way they just arrested Guadalupe Navarro and I'm like awesome they're like hey but but but Richard Horn is actually at a tattoo parlor in New Braunfels and I was like I was like okay great they said so you can probably contact one of your DPS CID agents and coordinate with them about getting them your handcuffs because they're about to go to this tattoo parlor. So initially I was driving towards the Gain and then now I'm driving toward New Braunfels. And the whole time, there's a lot of emotions. I'm like, man, this is, you know, this is awesome. And the crazy thing is I'm in my personal vehicle. I was just going to go drop off some handcuffs. My wife, Melinda's with me and we're driving. I'm like, I'm like, Hey, okay, we're just go find some place to meet these agents and they're going to put my handcuffs on Richard Horn. And so we're going to New Braunfels and I get a call from one of the agents that said, sir, we just arrested Richard Horn. And in my mind, I'm thinking, I'm like, okay, hey, you know what? That's awesome. I don't need to. They said, he said, but we're waiting for you. And I'm like, well, for what? You got to, guys already have him in custody. They're like, well don't you want to put your handcuffs on him and so i was like man i'm about 30 minutes away you know it's gonna be they're like we'll wait they give me the uh the address at a tattoo parlor we drive down and he's already in the vehicle we pull up and i tell melinda i'm like hey just wait here. And so I get out and they're like, hey, sir, he's here. And they pull him out of the vehicle and he's handcuffed. And so he turns I turn him around and look him in the eye Let's pause here, just long enough to sharpen the focus, see the moment from Gabe's perspective. His brother Larry did some things, maybe a lot of things, that were not legal. And he paid for it, went to prison, missed the best years of his kids' lives, the best years of his life. But he was trying. Lord knows he was trying. That's really what he was telling Gabe at Thanksgiving when they were drinking whiskey on the patio. When Larry said he shot a guy years before, he wasn't bragging. He was confessing. When he told Gabe he was back in the game, that wasn't swagger. It was desperation. Larry wanted to do better, had done better. And now Gabe is face to face with the guy who shot him. I look him in the eye and I say, you're the one that killed my brother he said I ain't fucking kill nobody I'm like no you killed my brother it's like you have no idea who you fucked with and you're gonna fucking pay for what you did and I turned him around and put my handcuffs on him took to the other agents handcuffs off, gave it to him, and I put him in the vehicle. And probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. Why? There's a lot of things going on in my mind at that time. And you know, their first split second, I was like, man, I could just easily put a bullet in this guy's head. You know, instant retribution. for a second I just wanted to put a bullet in his head but I'm like then what Gabe obviously walked away he went back to his truck back to Melinda and tried to calm down and I'm just wound up and I'm just shaking and for a while and then I start getting text messages that the other suspects are being arrested. Hey, we just arrested Marvin. Hey, we just arrested Alina. Hey, we just arrested. So just one by one. Gabe has created a family text threat. I'm letting them know, just kind of keep them updated. Here's what's going on. We just arrested. And they turned it into a drinking game. And so every time I said, hey, we just arrested one, and everybody's taking a shot, wherever they were. That's actually kind of a nice tribute. Larry would have appreciated it. Why my dad chose the life he chose over my Uncle Gabe's life, I don't know. You know, those are questions that he's not here to answer for me. This is Larissa. Because like I said, he would never really share those things. It was always making up for lost times and just keeping us on the right path. It's been a struggle. I'm in a very dark place. I don't talk to nobody because I don't feel like I can talk to anybody. Because the only person I talked to about anything was my dad. no matter what you tell my dad, he always found positive in everything. There was always a positive solution. It can be the dumbest thing. He was going to turn it around into something so positive. It's been two years since Larry was killed when Larissa's telling me these things. Richard Horn, the shooter, he's in prison. He put a guilty to murder in January 2024 in exchange for a 40-year sentence. Guadalupe Navarro was offered 35 years. She actually provided a fairly helpful statement that was worth a few years off her sentence. But she declined. She pleaded guilty to murder, but took her chances on sentencing with a jury. She got 75 years. As for the other four defendants, Ainsley, Alina, Marvin, and Kirsten, as of June 2025, they had all pleaded not guilty, but none of them could make bail. They were still being held in the Brazoria County jail. The same jail where Larry spent so much time as a younger man. The same jail where his own son, Third, would be locked up on occasion. Larry's senior, dad, maybe he would have seen that as one of those generational curses. He'd been in that jail too. So that's one way of looking at it. But if there was a curse, if you believe in such things, maybe Larry could have broken it. Maybe he was almost there. Within the Ortiz family, there was some dissent when it came to prosecutors offering Richard Horn a plea deal. Some relatives, understandably, wanted maximum vengeance. They wanted the man who killed Larry, their son, husband, uncle, brother, Larry, to stand trial. To be judged by a jury of his peers, who they believed would surely find him guilty and put him away for the rest of his natural life. I kind of explained to him, like, hey, look, no amount of time is going to bring Larry back. And do we really want to go to a jury trial? I said, juries are very quirky. You just never know what you're going to get. And obviously, there was a lot of people in that house that day, to include family members, that have criminal histories. and a good defense attorney can spin this and make it look like, hey, there's a lot of, you know, crooks in this family and, you know, this guy was a gang member and he was a dope dealer and, you know, it's just a dope deal gone bad type situation. And, you know, you just never know how they can spin it. And I told the family and I said, do you really want to put the entire family through all of this and not really knowing what the end result was going to be? And that is the final irony, the final tragedy. For years, people who loved Larry were afraid he would die young and probably violently. But in the end, Larry wasn't killed because of his criminal lifestyle, because he was doing something illegal, or even because he got into a fight with some knothead. Larry died protecting his family, which, in his own way, was the only thing that ever really mattered. The Brothers Ortiz is a production from Campside Media in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Brothers Ortiz was written, reported, and hosted by me, Sean Flynn. Lane Rose is our senior producer. Story editing by Audrey Quinn. Sound design, mix, and engineering by Garrett Tiedemann. Original music by Garrett Tiedemann. Fact-checking by Savannah Wright. iHeart Podcast executive producers are Lindsay Hoffman and Jennifer Bassett. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Gregoriadis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher. A special thanks to our operations team, Doug Slaywin, Ashley Warren, and Sabina Mara. If you enjoyed The Brothers Ortiz, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. And thanks for listening. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? I've just been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.