Julian Lage

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and today I'm playing along with Julian Lodge. I'm just playing along with you. I'm just playing along with you. Hey, I'm Nora, and with me, always and forever, is Sarah Oda. Hello, hello. Our guest today is the incredible guitar player and prolific composer, Julian Lodge. He's put out an extensive collection of albums, both on his own and collaborating with others. He starred in a documentary film titled Jules at Eight, made in 1996 by Mark Becker, which featured his virtuosity at a very young age. And now, as you'll hear, his performances continue to be profoundly intelligent and captivating. He's one of the most humble and unpresumptuous musicians we met on this podcast. What would you say? He's incredibly humble for how good he is and how long he's been good. Yeah, and he's a very open and approachable musician, I feel like, considering how skilled he is. He's very much a student of life, it seems like. He's kind of one of those. Definitely. In the best, most beautiful way. Yes. Yes, and it was so fun to get to play with him. We have a lot of mutual friends, and I've known Julian a long time. We also had his wife, Margaret Glassby, on this podcast last season. And she's an incredible musician as well. And Julian has a new album that just came out last week titled Scenes from Above. This project is with a new quartet featuring John Modeski, Jorge Roder, and Kenny Wallacein. So be sure to check that out. We had a great time. I hope you enjoy it. Here we go with Julian Lodge. Do you sit at home and play? Not as much as I used to. Alone? Alone. Not nearly as much as I used to. I want to. I keep thinking of it that music, it really is like medicinal. You know? And I think there's that healing component that you can only work on if you are doing it regardless of your work life. Like this is what I'm gonna do even if the world ended tomorrow because it's what my soul needs. Or it's the work I'm here on this planet to do. Those questions I think about a lot. Really? Yeah, when I'm in touch with it, then I will sit down even if it's 10 minutes and go, wow, this is a blessing, and it's not about anything else. But I feel like I'm due for an extended period of that. Yeah. I think I'm kind of just... Well, you kind of have to refill the tank a little. A thousand, I think it's all about regeneration. It's all that. But until you stop, you don't have the gas. Well, you don't have the gas. Over the perspective, have you felt the two? You're working and you're like, you think you're one place in the whole continuum and then you listen back a week later and you go, I sound flattened, you know? Or I sound worried or afraid. You know, you can hear those things about your own playing. I gotta take care of that guy. That's the responsibility, I think. Yeah, I'm so glad we're doing this. Yeah, should we play a tune? Absolutely. I am curious, but for all the listeners who love you, especially the guitar players, what is that that you're playing? The guitar I'm playing here is a nacho caster. And nacho is a Spanish builder. Ignacio. A door wall. I know, I think he's the greatest. I mean, the telecaster is an old, old wonderful instrument. He happens to make versions of them that feel genuine. They feel old, they feel broken in, but they also have a modern quality. So you play them in a modern context and with modern amps and whatnot. And it feels like it should be there, you know? They're stable. That's cool. Yeah, he's a special one. So that's my main. Nacho caster. Nacho caster. I use a lot of guitars by callings as well. Great Texas company in Austin. And they made the acoustic I play and also another electric that's another main guitar. But I keep it as focused on only a couple guitars as possible. Yeah, I get that. Do you know what I mean? Well, I feel like it's easy to go nuts. And that might drive you nuts. Well, it can certainly scatter your focus, you know? And for me, all guitars are always teachers, right? Every guitar kind of teaches you what you need to know about it. And going through that experience, you become better, fuller. So I think guitars are with us until they no longer need to be with us and then they go somewhere else. I love that. There's a stewardship involved. That's cool. But anyway, thanks for asking. Nacho, you make awesome guitars. Yeah, Nacho. I love it. And so it looks and feels old, but it's a modern instrument. So I like it. What's your main electric? I used to play a Mustang. That's what I saw. I think I saw it. It was great, but it really didn't stay in tune very great. Had a floating bridge. So I switched to a Jazzmaster after I recorded it at the loft. This makes sense. And I played one of Tweety's Jazzmasters. And then I feel like, I want to say Mark found it for me. Did you find it? I can't remember who found it. Somebody maybe loft related. That's so cool. There's so, when a Jazzmaster is good, it's like superior to most everything. He's so pretty. I love it. Oh, that's cool. I have small hands, so I can't really play anything big. And I also, I'm not really a barcourts girl. Barcourts are hard. I really need to... So let me just say it. I really should practice break a time, but... Guitar's funny like that. It's kind of as hard as we want it to be, I find. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? That makes sense. Like I was watching Rich Haven's play when we were talking about him and Fiattax and being like, well, he found this, his language, and he doesn't seem stumped. Yeah. You know, and you just go, Jim Hall was the same way, Jeff Bex. All these master players, they just kind of know thyself. Like what can you do? What do you want to do? And then do it. There's not really any... It's almost like within your limitations where you find your voice. Completely. And it's not, and limitations don't have to be narrow. You know, it can be... I think that's... But they can be, and they can still be awesome. The best. Guitar is such a friendly instrument. Yeah. I mean, it seems like it. After you get the first initial... Yeah, you gotta go, wait a second. It hurts at first. You have crazy, it does, right? Remember that where you're just like, oh. But I'm down to play absolutely anything you want. Okay, well, I was thinking we could start with day and age, but since you have the electric, maybe we should start with something else. Well, it works well on the electric one. It does, okay. Sure it does. Something about the modulation... So we're in... Made me happy because... So yeah, right. I like the way you play it. So here's the... Oh, it's so pretty. And then we'll let this thing... Wait, what do you do there? I'm playing the... Oh yeah. Do you do a weird voice? I'm thinking... You do the willy? I do this. Oh, okay. Which is the same bass note. Yeah, basically. It's basically like one, four, five. Okay, cool. I'm not missing something. You're not missing nothing. What do you think? Do we play the melody? Why don't you play the melody a few times? Yeah, I'll play a short solo or something. You wanna play something on it too? I can play something on it. Play something on it. And then you wanna get us to be? And then start singing? Okay, and I'll be like, hero! All right, so I hope you don't mind. I wrote some lyrics. I'm so glad you did. I don't know if they're amazing, but I don't know, it's such a simple, sweet song. I thought it would be fun. It seems to be asking for it, you know? I feel like every song of yours asks for it. They're so melodic. Thanks, thank you. It's such a gift. I think it's what makes your music so special. It's instrumental, but it's actually just singable melodies. That's so good. Not everyone does that. So it's great. That makes me feel good, thank you. You must have the soul of a singer. I certainly, I feel like I'm attracted to that kind of narrative, right? Because melody is so interesting. I like so many topics, my understanding of melody keeps changing. But I think it's, you know, the path of least resistance as far as communication. I think certain sentiments come across as, well, that's melodic because it needs to be. Versus, I'm gonna try to put this disposition on everything. If anything, I've struggled writing songs that don't need to be melodic to get their point across. They might be textural. They might be rhythmic, they might be architectural. But if it's just me at home playing the guitar, I have an affinity for things that get stuck in my own head really, and you can't stop playing them. Yeah, well, it's the way to go. Yeah, I like it. I think that's the goal. I think it's what we're trying to do. Yeah, don't overthink it. Yeah, well, let's try this one. Hey, it's been a day. Hey, it's been an agent. All this time I pray that I could see your face. I'm gonna try to put this disposition on everything. I think that's the way to go. I think that's the way to go. Well, I find you in the morning when you appear in the night on some sunny day. Let's try. If you turn away or take me for a ride in my heart, I'll stay in hopes to turn when I'm tired. But I'll ask you in the morning you'll tell me in the night on some sunny day. That's right. But I'll ask you in the morning you'll tell me in the night on some sunny day. That's right. On some sunny day. That's right. Hey, that's great. That's so fun. You sound fantastic. Those lyrics are great. I got a little lost, but it kind of worked with the chorus. It worked fine. I'm telling you there's no... Luckily we picked the right transition. We did. We got there. That's fun. That's fun. Hey, thanks for that. Yeah. Thanks a lot for that. It's a great tune. It's like so... Hearing you phrase, it's really inspiring. It's just the way you can place things where you place them. That's tremendous. Thanks. It's a beautiful song. It kind of has like an old spiritual vibe, you know? Those are my favorite kinds of songs. Mine too. Right though? The DNA is obviously not... Okay, here's a hit. This is a... I'm trying to impress you. It's like... No. No, it's like... It's like, did I write this? Or was this already written? It was just already found, you know, in the world. It's so beautiful. I tried to keep the lyrics sort of like, you know... I like when you can interpret lyrics your own way, but also when they're very clear to you. And not vague on purpose, you know? That makes total sense. And I find recently that if I'm writing to God, for instance, and I'm not necessarily very religious, but if I'm writing to God, then it really means something. And it's also easily interpreted into like a lover or a friend. It's like a thing. I've thought about that before. I've talked to Marud about it. Oh my God, yeah, the nature of songs that... I guess are touching or scratching at universality. Yes. And not in a popular sense. Not like, well, everyone will... How could you find fault with this? Everyone's gonna love this. It's not that. Not like bland boring way. No, exactly where you take out all the nutrients. It's not that. It's exactly like you're saying there's these kind of archetypes of humanity in life, you know? It's kind of the Joseph Campbell thing. You know, it's like where either these generations after generations of people from all over the world, we gravitate to stories. Yeah. And they tend to have similar themes. And because these themes are the themes we need to make sense of this life. And so I think that's what you're saying resonates completely. And I'm always... I am thinking about that. And I can... Like so many cool things. You know it when you know it when you hear it. Yeah. Otherwise, you can be poking around in the dark, but then it happens and you go, oh, hey, I think that's bigger than me. Yeah. It's fantastic. Music's the best. I know it really is. I know I feel so lucky sometimes. We're lucky. Yeah, it's really special. And it's nice when you feel like you can just play. Yeah. I keep telling my kids, complaining about piano lessons. I'm like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't like piano lessons either. Totally. But now I can just play. I mean, you can play. And it's great. Yeah. Now I can just speak the language. Well, you can do it so fluently. I mean, it's... I remember growing up, I felt similar to what you're talking about where I was like, I remember having this distinct feeling as a kid where I thought, okay, the whole point of studying is so that no one, no adults who I play with or want to play with, could find a reason why I'm ineligible to have a meaningful musical conversation. Do you know what I mean? I was kind of... I definitely wasn't thinking that way when I was a kid, no. I was all in it. I was trying to figure it out. You were really... I was so obsessed with it. Yeah. I don't know, actually. When did you start though? I started at seven and I wasn't even good till like five minutes ago. I don't even... I get it. I've always been kind of a slacker, but I think I got really into it in high school. So when did you start, start? I started... I would have been five. My dad played, but my father played... He started kind of when I started. Oh, really? It was beautiful. So he started... That's a really fun way to bond. It was such a way to bond. I mean, my whole family, my mother and father, it's an amazing familial structure. And I'm the youngest of five kids. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a thing. It's a thing. So the point being that, you know, what's your... What are you going to get into? Because everyone's preoccupied getting older and doing their thing. So it just felt natural that when I started that, I was all kind of, I'm going to do this. I'm going to really go in and... Wow. But it was... I don't know, nor I think... I think it was just about being close with my father in my... Yeah. I think it was about having... We were into it. Into it. That time together. Oh, it was fabulous. You know, he would take lessons and come home and teach me what he learned. And then we would take the lessons together as I got older. Wow. And then I would take the lessons and he would come with me. Oh, that's really sweet. Right. So there's this transformational quality. That's a nice bonding story. It's a good... It was... It's true. At what point did you surpass him? I don't know. I don't think I ever will. Really? Did he still around? No, sadly, my father passed. Oh, sorry. Did he still play? He didn't play, but I'll tell you this much. Without a doubt, my father is the most brilliant guitarist who never... Not never, but it didn't play the guitar. Yeah. He has... There's an ability that he... That's very embedded in me now and it has my whole life because from him, but he could kind of objectively understand the inner workings of really anything. Yeah. He was a brilliant visual artist and kind of a child prodigy as a visual artist as a kid. Oh, really? Yeah, and then he stopped doing it for some time, but I think in seeing me, he saw the potential for the two kind of forks in the road. You can exploit... A young person can feel pressure to be something or they can feel nurtured and protected and allowed to grow. My parents both saw that so vividly. So I was the beneficiary of him really just seeing the whole world so clearly. Yeah. And we would watch guitar players and even if he didn't play, he'd say, do you notice this player that they're great for about like 60% of their solo and then something always goes off the rails. I'd be like, he's right. What is it? Then we both kind of studied and analyzed it. And you're a kid. I'm a kid, but I mean this happened through until my 30s. We would talk about these things. That's cool. It was so marvelous. And you all to say, I was serious about it because I was serious about being close to him. That's pretty cool. It's really nice. I mean, it's a gift beyond words truly. But you were really serious about it. I was really, I didn't see you. Yeah, I was really, I was, I was, I was like, I was, I just wanted to, I don't know, figure it out. And I had a lot of great mentors. Yeah. You know, I took lessons with everyone who would teach me. I still do. How close to San Francisco are you? So I grew up in Santa Rosa, California. So it's about 60 miles, about an hour north. 60. Oh, okay. Wine country, smack dab in the middle of like, that world. And it's, you know, the Bay Area, as you well know, it's like, it's a rich history. So many great musicians. So many. And a lot of the people that I was around were, had been Californians for a long time. So that meant you were interfacing with the Grateful Dead scene, Jerry's World, St. Tana's World. There was a lot of different stuff. A lot of different stuff. Denny Zitland was around, the great, you know, jazz piano player. You have the Vince Garaldi tradition. People were around who made important music. And if they weren't around, the people who worked with them were around. So it was rather fluorescent. And I grew up in a time before, I'm of the generation that's right before the internet, really. Yeah. And it would think, God, you know, so there was no, there was no nothing. I would just go play restaurant gigs, take lessons, study, go to school, do the thing. That's so cool. It was pretty awesome. Did you play in the city a lot? In high school? I did. Rehearsals, sessions with friends, Yoshi's, you know, the clubs that were around. That's so cool. That's cool. When did you first play a gig under your own name, though? Well, I think I started playing jazz trio stuff in high school. I mean, not gigs, coffee shop, but in college, yeah, I did like restaurant stuff. And then I was in a band that wasn't my name. Probably when I moved to New York. I really was just playing jazz when I moved to New York. And I got close with Jesse Harris, who is how I met you. That's right. Years ago. Years ago. And him and another, you know, Richard, Julian and some other friends, like I will go see them at the songwriter club at the living room. Oh, yeah, of course. And then I got into songwriting. And then when I started playing my own songs, it was with Jesse and he was, I was singing his songs and my songs. Right, right. And I started to put it under my name. And then it went from there. That's amazing. Did you feel, I'm always curious about this, and specifically, frankly with you, I mean your relationship to the instrument and sound is so, I mean, especially being in the room next to you, I see, I, so it's like, wow, this sound emerges from the instrument in this different way. And that it's just so, it's so cool. You never know that until you're next to your favorite people. Did you feel, did you ever feel a tug of war between being the songwriter and the person who's rendering the music? Because I certainly have. Really? Well, absolutely. Because I think they can be different. Different muscle. They're different muscle, but they're, it's kind of like, I think of Coltrane all the time or the way he, I mean, this is true of so many of the masters, but specifically, the way he could, you know, write these songs that would, it was just enough to get him into the space as an improviser that he needed to be, but on their own, vehicle for him to really do that thing. Absolutely. And yet on their own, they're also magical, you know, Ornette, same thing. Those, those people that strike that balance and, and as you have to, and so I'm just curious to you, I know some people talk about like, okay, I write to push myself to sing different or to play different. Other people say, no, I write what I sing and what I play so that I've got good material that's easy, you know. Did you ever feel like that was even a question or were you like, no, no brainer, I'm going to write it, I'm going to play it. Well, I think I started covering songs because I was singing jazz and I wouldn't write. I wrote like a song in high school, which is kind of embarrassed me. So I think I shied, I like, kind of recoil my, my turtle head went back in. Like I didn't, I didn't think I could write. Yeah. And it wasn't until I moved to New York and I think I had gone to the living room and then I went back to my apartment and I had an old guitar. I didn't have a piano yet. You know. And so I would just play five chords in my guitar and I wrote come away with me. And it was so, it's such a simple song. It's nothing fancy. But as we just played, like sometimes that's the best because it's heartfelt. Yeah. Exactly. Cliches don't matter when you mean them. You know what I mean? So true. So I think, you know, I always liked that song and it kind of worked out for me. After that though, I got real heady about songwriting and I felt like I had to sort of prove myself as a songwriter and I overthought it. I would do those things where I would take stuff out to be more vague. And I think in the end, I didn't write any songs like I hate hate that are on albums necessarily, but in the end I realized that when it's just a bolt of lightning inspiration, it's just better. So the last 10 years I felt really confident in writing because I'm not trying to write. Yeah. You trust that it's kind of one of the same. It's integrated. And you know, those periods where you think you have nothing to say and writer's black, I never worry about that anymore. I think I did for a time. But I always feel like it's going to, you just got to fill it up and then I'll come out again. I think that's what we keep learning. Exactly. You know, all the masters always say it. It's like, just go, just go. Unless you've kind of isolated yourself and you stop listening to music. I mean, that's a whole other thing. That's a great point though. That's a dangerous spot. You know, you're kind of drinking your own cool. Deep depression. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, you kind of, you're drinking your own cool aid and you're... Yeah. I feel that was so, I mean, I have empathy. I'll say it that way. I have empathy for when musician feels like their job is to render the thing that they think they're supposed to do. I don't know many people like that. I know. I see it. I don't see you as that. I feel that way fortunately, but I... Who in our, like, mutual friend... Like, I don't even know those people. We're lucky because I think we're kind of in a community where there's not... I think there's a premium put on. Yeah. A certain thing. I guess I think of it more for maybe a student, let's say, or someone who's coming up and feels the pressure, okay, I have this, you know, I have these abilities as a player. I've also got to be a songwriter. I've also got to be successful and I've also got to have a hit. That's when I think you see that you start playing at the thread. And I've also got to be really good at self-promotion because social media. I don't have to be really good at selfies. I get it. Now it's like you just add to the list. You add to the pile. I feel so bad for young people. I think there's a tremendous amount of empathy and compassion needed because it is a different field. That's why we all have to stick together intergenerational. Because I think that's how we all get through stuff. Yeah. But it's more in that environment that I can see someone think, well, you know, I got attention when I did this, so I better keep doing that. Yeah. I know. You get it. Don't worry about it. So how did you shake that? I don't know how I... How did you ever have that feeling? I remember... It's a good question if I really think about it. My first record I didn't make as a leader until I... I think I was 21, 22. But I've been playing really seriously since I was five and I was out with Gary Burton's band for about a decade from 15 until I was 25. It was one of those rare mentorships. I was really... I guess my point being I had no qualms. I was like, this is great. I don't have to be the guy. I can be the simple... You weren't staring at a mountain of ambition, of extra stuff that you were waiting to do. No, no, no, no, none of this. See, that's how I was when I moved to New York. Is that right? I think... Well, because I was really young and it all happened really fast. So I hadn't had time to look toward what I was doing yet. Thank God. I think that's a very lucky and rare place to be. I think it's a fortuitous thing because it can allow you to just redirect energy where it's needed. What's the thing I think that I want to do? It's part of it, I think for me was always... And I say this with tremendous respect. I mean, I really do. That I always felt like jazz, my relationship to improvised music was about celebrating a subculture. You know, I was like, this is great because no one cares. If no one cares, I can do anything. You know, it's not like no one cares, I must be doing something wrong. I don't mean no one cares. You didn't feel the pressure. No, I was... I was like, wait, this is... I know what you mean. Do you know what I mean? It was like me doing this... It's niche. It's niche and the people who know it and love it like yourself and everyone you mentioned before, we're gonna stick together through all of this. I felt like I didn't have any pressure to really go out there and do it. Now, similar to you, once I started, I made this record. I think I felt a pressure to reinvent maybe myself within my own orb. I had a band that I really liked. I liked it then, I like it now, but it was hard. It was kind of a chamber group. It was like acoustic guitar, saxophone, cello, bass, percussion. And I said, I don't want a trio. I don't want real drum set. You didn't want a traditional set up. I thought this was my offering, was I'm gonna be non-traditional. And we made a lot of cool music. I don't think... But were you already writing from a young age? I was. I was. I forgot. Someone the other day sent me a recording of my demos from when I was like 13. So good. And I was kind of... Certain things were better then than they are now. I were talking about not being self-conscious. Yeah, the beginner's mind. Oh my God. I wrote all these tunes and these rhythm changes things. That's cool. It was great. Looking back, I think when I first started getting that, okay, I gotta have a chamber ensemble, I gotta merge these worlds. It was really... I truly mean it. It was a wonderful necessary thing for me to do. But I think what made it cool was the human beings involved. Yeah. Not because I had such a clever idea. Not the... Not the concept. Not the concept. No, no. It's just the fact that you guys were all playing music together and vibing. And just listening and loving one another. That's all that matters. It's exactly... Yeah. So I rebranded why that... Much of myself, I've reframed why that was important. At the time, I thought it was something else. But it's been so lovely because over the years, I realized that to pick up a guitar and play it at all is really special. If I can celebrate that, whether it's through the prism of an original, an improvised piece, a standard, it doesn't really matter. You just have to put your heart on it. That's it. That's why it's so fun to play with you because you got that... Obviously, you possess that and share it with great generosity. And it's just a reminder that's the whole thing. So we were on tour in Europe recently with Jorge Roder, Brilliant Bass is one of my best friends in the world. We've made... He's been in my first band all the way to now. So we're kind of... He's so good. Yeah. And we just happened to have a few dates with Joey Barron. Oh, cool. We were playing with... We were playing with Joey. I know, but I know through Jesse a little bit. I think you would have a ball. To me, he's such a bastion of what we're talking about. It's how we relate to the music. And he's living proof of that. And as are all the masters. We play with Dave King, who's also a master and it's the same thing. But it's funny when you... Or Billy Hard or these... You just kind of circle, wow, it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to live it. And I'm trying to really learn about it more. It's important to remember. It is. It's important to recognize when you go off of the rails a little. Yeah. And kind of go, wait, I think I might be pursuing a different agenda. I haven't done that in a while. Is that right? I'm not saying I'm like perfect or something. No, I don't know, but that's... I don't really do stuff unless I'm really feeling it. So actually, when we were trying to come up with a cover to do, I haven't done as many covers in the last 10 or so years because I don't feel the same when I'm singing them as I did when I was 20. When I was 20, I felt like I could really sing the song and sometimes I overinterpreted it, but usually I was just so green that I just, oh, this is a great song, I'm going to sing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was really heartfelt. But now that I started writing, I find it harder to put other words in my mouth and make them real. It's total sense. Because I feel like to sing a song, you do have to sort of own it. You absolutely... You have to sing it like you wrote it. Yeah, absolutely. Do you... A question for you. I'm sorry. No, I like it. I'm fine with it. Okay. But suppose you run into that, right? Do you... Are you of the mind, well, I'm going to strategize how to move through this or is it enough to be like, this ain't it? I mean, I'll try a couple of times, but then it either is it or it's not. I mean, what am I doing where I have to do it? It's so true. You don't have to. If somebody wants me to sing it for a movie, that's different. That's different. But you have the... Yeah, you can... That's encouraging. Yeah, why make it happen? I'll fight it. Yeah. Covers are wonderful. I keep... I'm starting to return to them more. Yeah. Well, it must be fun to play melodies. I mean, it's fun to play melodies. It's fun to play melodies. And when you don't have to like fake the words, like what if there's an awkward word? Like, you don't have to worry about that. How you do it. I'm not cut out for words. I really am not. We were talking about... Who wrote this? Which one? We were talking about Hardik. I love that song. Tell me about this. In all honesty, I don't really know much about it. I know. I don't really either. I think that the song Hardik, I think it might be on that solo album he did. Thanks, I'll eat it here, but it's not the same version. It's not the same version as the one you shared with YouTube. No, the one I shared with you is some random demo with him and Linda Ronsat, which I used to have like a bootleg recording of in the early 2000s. Or maybe it was... It definitely wasn't on YouTube. It was like a rogue. Yeah. File that we had of it. I really loved it. I loved it. I would love to play with you. You know why I love it so much? Because it's got such a weird key center change. I still don't completely understand it or I haven't analyzed it enough, but it's so natural and beautiful yet weird. I would never think of it. I was in the car listening to this in traffic and I was like trying to be the good music suit. I was like trying to sing the bass and like here where he's moving and I was foiled and then I was like, if I guitar where my hands is, it's such guitar language. Yeah, it is. At least with him. He's such a master. That's right. It's cool though. I'm glad you brought it up. Are you... Is F a crappy key for guitar? They're all good. Okay. I just... You want to try on acoustic? Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. So I've always loved the song and I've sang it a couple of times and just like, you know, I'm not much of a... I'll sing a song at somebody's apartment. Jesse, perfect guitar. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. His house, you know, people are always jamming. He kind of sets the stage for that. Yeah, it's fun, but like I'm not the first to go up and sing a song, but I feel like I've sung this a couple of times at random things because it's just a great song. Well, it's also kind of rare. It's like when I put it on, like I haven't heard it much, but it's just kind of... It's got what you need. I heard it once and I was like, I got to hear that again. It's so pretty in her harmonies. She's so open. I just love her so much. No, well, you give me an A. Thank you. Thanks. These strings are old. They're good. What do you got there? This is this calling that I like. We made this like a signature guitar years ago and I really like it. Very lightweight so it... It's almost like it ages in dog ears. So for every year you own it, it's about seven years old. What do you think about Emma Hoy? Are you into Emma Hoy? My favorite. What you're just playing. That's like the wandering trap. She's my favorite. She just died last year, right? So she's this Ethiopian nun. Ethiopian nun, right? That alone is so hip and she lived to be, I believe, 99 or 100. She was old. She wrote music, piano, music for a single piano and she played these recordings. I mean, recordings are just... Yeah, exactly. Homeless wanderer. Oh my God. A young girl's complaint. Yes, right? Famine disaster. Oh my God. The names alone of these songs are so amazing. It's almost like a little cat is just like walking on the keyboards but in the most beautiful way. I know. I mean, every time I talk about writing to God, I mean, that was definitely spiritual music. You vary. And the recordings themselves are gorgeous documents. I know. And it's kind of big now. Like on that Ethiopian stuff. Exactly. And I actually saw a commercial for VRBO where they clearly were ripping it and it was a beautiful commercial. It made me... They got you. Like they did a great job. It was beautiful but it was not her. But it was very much similar. The secret's out. Let's celebrate Emma Hoy. Yeah, she's the best. It is so good. Okay, let's see what we got. Take that. I'm gonna play this one up a little bit. Can you hear me okay? Yeah. So when you play an F, it's just only bar chords basically, right? Ish, C, F, and D. I guess so. You mean on this arrangement? Just in general. Like, I don't know. If I saw an F. If I saw an F. I think of it more... The less notes, the better. I don't play a lot of bar chords. Gotcha. Because they're hard. You know, they are hard. So you play the higher... High in the neck basically. I play higher, I play here. But even a dyad like... You're losing me. I know. I know I'm losing myself. I'm losing the guitar. I know. But it's true that... Playing a straight F like is hard. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. It's mechanically. Mechanically is if you look at even your fretting hand, it's asking a lot. It is. It's so... You just either figure it out or you don't, but you don't have to. My friend for this Puss in Boot show, she wanted to sing Oh Holy Night in the F. I was like, cool. I'm gonna ask you to change that. And then I was like, wait a second. I can capo it. It's fine. Capos are great. Capos are the best. I've done some stuff with a capo over the... And I played it neat. Yeah. It was super easy. I think that's the solution. Just don't worry about it. I capoed our gig last week. I was super excited about this, but it was a total dork moment. I got the key wrong and we started the song and I realized I usually play with the capo. I could play it without the capo, but there was the bridge coming up, which I wasn't sure what was gonna happen. And then I remembered what key I did it in. On a little sly moment, I put the capo out and I started playing it in the new key and I was like, yes. I did it. This is a pretty dork moment. No, that's great. I live for that kind of thing. All right. I did too. I still slowed it down. That was my... It's gotta go where it's gotta go. It's a sweet little tune, right? It is great. I was just playing it thinking about what it must have been like to write that or that structure where... I wonder if you thought about it. I don't know. He was a really good guitar player, right? Tremendous. One of the greatest. He had that ability. He had that ability, but it's... What he found so clearly is that it's almost like falling grace by swallow or something. One of these tunes where it cycles. You don't know where things end and where they begin. It sounds like it was an accident. It could have been. It's a beautiful one, if so. I know. I love it. And the lyrics are very heartfelt. Yeah. You sound gracey in that. Oh, thank you. Can we try that tune of yours? Which one? Do we talk about hymnal? Do we talk about Speak to Me? Oh, Speak. You want to try that? Yeah, I think I know what's happening on it. Well, of course you know what's happening. Well, I mean, you might have to... Well, let's... I think I get it. How's it? Be flat? It's right there. Be flat? That seems like a weird key for a guitar. It kinda is. I'm rethinking that as we speak. It works in other keys just as well. Do you ever do other tunings? I don't. I don't touch it. I'm worried. I'm worried. This is a general notion. No, but I know the point is that it reframes the guitar completely. I just feel like I'm working so hard to understand it as it is. I don't want to pull the rug out just yet. Well, it's like you always have that up your sleeve if you ever get stuck. You just start working on it. Truly. Yeah. When I moved into New York, I'll tell you this is kind of funny. I started going over to Jim Hall's house a lot. Jim Hall was like, my... That's so cool. Did you ever play with him? I didn't. So he was one of your... Total gods. I mean, total, totally. That's so cool. You had to play with him. It was wonderful. No, I was like, little boy, Julien was flipping out. But he was so over... He was just over anything that wasn't about innovation. And I'd go to him and I'd talk to him. I'd say, hey, Jim, can I ask you a question about playing with Sonny Rollins in the 60s or this with whomever? You just... You say, Julien, it was not a good time. This country was not in a good place. And him being in... What could we consider an early integrated band? Sonny Rollins, Quartet. It was just a massive deal. And he just was very clear to say, don't romanticize anything. Just anything. But especially that time because it sucked. The music was great, but it sucked. And he was always looking forward. How can we make the world a better place and not romanticize what it was? What an interesting reminder. Isn't that cool? It's the most important thing, isn't it? Exactly. So it was a matter of real concern to him that we don't get caught up in that. But anyway, so I'd go over there with these questions about these iconic records. And he'd say, I've got a better idea. How about I'll give you my guitar, you give me yours, and I'll detune yours randomly. And you detune mine randomly. And it will play free. Oh, and it was... How fun. It was fabulous. And it was terrifying because here I am sounding like a, you know, like I've never played guitar in my life in front of my hero. Yeah. But he probably was in the same boat. But he was in the same boat. So we're both. What a cool. It was great. So I always keep that in the back of my mind that it's there for us as a tool. Yeah. But no, as far as playing songs, I stick to standard as much as I can. What a great story. Yeah, it's fun. I love that. Well, let's see. Well, so this one, we had talked about this. I know I've always played as kind of a faster thing. Like however you want. I think it's groovy. I'm a slow, slow Jones. So... Well, this is going to work just fine. Thanks. I think it's... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You sound so great on that. I think I kept up mostly. I didn't say something too much. You kidding? It's beautiful. That's fun. It's fun to play with piano and guitar. It is. It's hard to play in B flat minor. It is. It's a weird key. It's a weird piano. I can only imagine. And guitar. And guitar. And guitar. And piano. And piano. And piano. And piano. And piano. And piano. And guitar. And guitar. But it's so satisfying when you get to that... Yeah. That E chord. Yeah. It feels so wrong, but it feels so right. So right. It's so good. It's so like getaway car. I know. It's like, I love it. That's so good. That was fun. Thanks for playing that, Nora. Thanks for letting me. That was awesome. That was fun. Can we try hymnoms? Yes. Oh my God. I love this. I know it's a weird one to pick, but I thought we could... It's so hip that you picked it though. We can do it anyway you want. Okay. I thought I could be the bass, basically. That's beautiful. I could take his parts. The bass parts. Is that Jorge? Yeah, that's Jorge. Okay. So if I'm... I play this theme, right? It's like a hymn, it's like a spiritual tune. So it's kind of called in response, right? So I'll play the thing and then you play anything in between it. And then what happens? Let me think about this first. I wrote it down. Can I see what you wrote down? Yeah. This is what I wrote down, but it's not in total order. That's okay. There's some stuff in there that's not there. That's quite all right. I just want to... My charts are not amazing. They're highly efficient. They work for me. That's how similar. Okay, here we are. Okay, here we are. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I love that. That's good. That's great. It's kind of Indian-y, like almost. I think so. It lives in that space. Yeah. Oh, it's so nice to play that with you. Wow. Thanks. I love that one. The harmonies are great that you're playing. Yeah, because it's all that. It's all that. It's voice leading that the church stuff. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's churchy, but it's also like Eastern-y. Yeah, well, that's what I... Yeah, I like old church. Old church. Yeah, like you're like pipe organ kind of energy. Yeah. It's pretty. It's just lovely to hear you play. Thanks for picking that one. Thank you. That's so unexpected to me. But it's totally fodder for really whatever someone wants to play. That's good. I love it. Did you study sort of Eastern music? Did you study the Alayak Bar? I did. Yeah, I studied at Tabla and Sitar for about a year. What? Yeah, it was wonderful. I was terrible, but I loved it. Ooh, I didn't know that. Oh, it was so fun. And I took one lesson with Kansa with Alayak Bar Khan. Oh, wow. On guitar. On guitar. I went to his house. So he's pretty old. He was at the time, he was... I don't remember how old he was. I must have been 15 or so. Okay. And his son, Alam, who's so wonderful, brilliant, master, he kind of arranged it. And it was... Interesting. It was just a one hour lesson with his father, but it was... So cool. Tremendous. I mean, it was tremendous. I think his father... I think my dad's guru was his father. Oh, interesting. I think so. And I think they came together, up together. I think my dad married his sister. Get out of here. I could be totally wrong about this. And then they were estranged. That's a zi-a-distan. Yes, they were not. They did not stay close. I don't know. Wow. But you played tabla though. I played tabla. That's my dream. Did you perform it? Did you? I mean, you must have. No, I always wondered what I would have played if I had grown up closer with my dad as a kid. Yeah, of course. Of course. Because I love, of course I love that music. And I think I would have gravitated towards tabla. That's pretty cool. It's really cool. I just remember being so out of my league and loving it. It's so hard. It's so hard. But it's so real. Because it's like, these things are hard. And they do take lifetimes. Yeah, they do. And within, I don't know how it was in the school because I know it was Americanized, but was it super traditional where the respect thing was really different from here? It was serious in that department, but I do think it was different, like you're saying. It was toned down. It was toned down. I mean, the fact that I was allowed to be there and kind of be this transplant as a jazz guitar player trying to fumble my way through other instruments was pretty generous of that. Yeah, that's cool. Did you touch his feet? Was that a thing? I did. Yeah, that was a thing. Absolutely. And I just remember this lesson with Ah-Far Khan was, here's how it went. I'll describe it very quickly. I went in, I touched his feet, sat down, and he said, let me see your guitar. And I handed him the guitar. And he began tuning it, and he kept tuning it. And I thought, wow, that's never heard of so in tune. I just wasn't the tradition I came from. And he kept tuning it. And I kid you not, it was probably about 50 minutes into the lesson. So about 10 minutes left. He's still tuning it, trying to get every overtone to just really see. Wait, he's tuning it the whole time? The entire lesson was him tuning it. And I'm watching him. What? It was fabulous. That's so weird. No, at the end, he plays a chord on it. And I've never heard a guitar so in tune in my life. Really? And the majesty of it alone was just stunning. Because you heard everything. And then in the remaining 10 minutes, he taught me a raga scale. And then I went home. That was it. But it was something to behold and witness. That is strange. Oh. But it was what I needed. It was cool. It worked out. It worked out great. But it was also, I have to say this too, about the guitar, especially, the history of the guitar and a lot of music is that it's very native, right? It's a folkloric instrument all around the world. But there's also another historical perspective that says the guitar has always been an outsider, even for it to be legitimized as a classical instrument. It took a lot. Composers didn't want to write for it. And you know, Segovia really pushed for that. In jazz, the guitar has always been a little bit misunderstood. Not to those who care about it, but... I know what you mean. Do you know what I mean? It's like the outlier a little bit. It can be. And yet it's got roots. So this is what we're all in the business of reconciling. How can you forget about that? It's a guitar. Just hear music. To see Alain Pruikran, concepts that see him tune the guitar and put it in to give it that care was really profound because it showed me that it's worth it. It's worth it. It's worth it. And that's very... It was a lesson in how to approach things. Completely. That's interesting. And that's that, that he made it very legitimate to me in that moment. That's so cool. That is really cool. Another beautiful thing of growing up where I grew up was to have access to it. Yeah. His instrument was the sarod. Yeah. How many strings does that have? It's a great question. Is it kind of like a sit-down-on-your-lap thing? Well, you place it in your lap, but it's kind of guitaristic in terms of... It's more guitar-y. You use a plectrum. Yeah, use a pick. Is it more guitar-y than a sit-ar? More guitar-y. The only difference though, maybe I should reconsider how I say this, it's got no frets. Oh, it's slide-y. Yeah, it's just slide-y. So I was more in-car with that tradition of guitar. That's cool. And there's sympathetic strings. Oh, which is a pain to tune. Oh my... That's probably why he said you got two of these things. I'm not sure how they do it, honestly. I don't think the boys sounds good when they get it. Yeah. I took one lesson with my dad one. Did you really? Yeah, it was really sweet because we had reconnected and gotten pretty close after I sort of turned 18, and I was probably 25 maybe, or 26, and I went to India. I'd gone through a breakup and I needed to escape some things. And I went there for a few weeks to spend with him. And I brought a little travel guitar. Get out. Because it, you know... Yeah, you're right. And I don't remember whose idea it was. I would have never probably asked. I probably would have been too shy. Yeah. But I was too shy. I was like kind of stubborn at that time. I'm not going to touch your feet. You're like, you know, I'm your daughter. This is weird. The whole cultural thing was just pretty foreign to me because I didn't grow up around it completely. Of course. But I think I might have touched them. I can't remember. But it was just such a thing. Of course, it's just a sign of respect. Of course. And I went in and he was trying to teach me a song. And I was trying to play it on guitar. It was funny. It was like really sweet that we tried kind of thing. But I think he thought of it too seriously. And I thought of it too not seriously maybe. Yeah. I just wanted to play. I just wanted to jam, man. Of course, though. But meanwhile, he's Ravi Shankar. So he's like this amazing, insane, brilliant, also teacher was a very prolific teacher his whole life. That's as I understand it. Which is I think the whole tradition of the music. Absolutely. Once you went through that experience with him, was that kind of understood mutually that that was good. And we're going to kind of keep going on our paths together. I honestly don't remember thinking about it much. Even better. It's more like a reflection thing where I found I find it funny. That is so sweet. I mean, we had dinner and we watched movies the rest of the week. It was fine. That's so great. It wasn't like, yeah. You weren't pushing. Being pushing about it just for fun. I wasn't pushing and he wasn't pushing. It was a sweet moment. I'm glad we had that. So thanks for sharing that. It's really cool. It's really cool to hear that. Well, do you want to try one more song? I would love to. You name it. What do we have? Well, I have a selfish request for you. Oh, I know what this is. So for some reason I was listening to all your stuff and I was like, wait a second. I have this old song that I wrote that I never did anything with and I found it in my voice memos and I sent it to you. I love this and you completely spun my head around because I see it written out and I go, oh yeah, I get it. But as music coming out of a speaker, it's so. It's weird. It's weird and beautiful, compelling. Yeah. So I'm glad you brought it to the table. Yeah, I actually had a question that relates to this because I called this is an instrumental song and I called it preschool blues because I think at the time I was applying to preschools for my kid, like literally in New York City. Yeah. But I was wondering about your songs. Yeah. It's hard to come up with titles. For instrumentals. For instrumentals. Oh, yeah. But they're really good. They're not contrived. Thanks for saying that. I mean, you generally just seem like you're not contrived. I guess it makes sense. Do you have a hard time ever or do you just pluck what the like universe tells you? Well, I've kept a list for maybe 15 years of titles that every time I hear something, I put it on a list. So there's at this point, there's probably 1500. That has nothing to do with music. Nothing to do with music. Oh, just so that you have them. Just so I have them. It's so interesting. It's going to be a turn of phrase. My father used to have them. People say things like, oh, that would be a good title. The trouble that, I'll say this again, all subject to change, but at this moment in time, the danger with titling instrumental songs is the, for me, is often the desire to sum up the emotion. Yeah. You know, and I've increasingly learned it doesn't matter. The emotion will translate. It's there. The title is almost more of an architectural component. That's why it gets contrived, I think. Of course you say it's the infinity of the blip and the blop and then it's like, okay, well, sure. But it's not, I don't think it's our duty to really spell it out for anybody. So I increasingly gravitate towards titles that are nonchalant because they need to be small enough to mean something and become a part of the equation for the listener. But on the other side, sometimes instrumentals have like ridiculous ones. You know, like the pencil in the ceiling. Oh my God. Like stupid. No, untitled, you know, 13. No, untitled number 17, 4. You're real careful. The project, zero. But if you know what's funny, I like typography, like I like fonts, you know, as I think a lot, I'm not alone, I know. So for me, it's always because that's such a dangerous thing where you can be too carefree about it. A big part of it is what does it look like written out? And what does it look like in handwriting? What does it look like in typeface? Okay. Because that can determine how the back cover is going to look and how it's going to look on iTunes or whatever. So you're thinking like an artist. I'm trying to. I will. And it happens to be really fun. And I am very lucky to be, you know, Margot Glassby is my partner and she's, as far as words and rhythm and cadence goes, she's a tremendous force. And so there are many things I show to her and I'll just say the name of the title and I feel like all the energy left the room. I'll be right back. That's so cute. Go, Consultalist. That's sweet. Yeah, it's kind of nice. I was wondering how she can stop herself from writing lyrics to all your tunes because they're just so melodic. She does. She's got her hands full with her own things. But I have to say this about of the many things I learned from her. We've been friends for so long. She told me the story. Yeah, it's like going way back. It's great. So I look up to Margot deeply and one of the things she's taught me is there's such a period in my life where I was looking to songwriters. You know, and I just moved to New York and I was just starting to hang out with Jesse, we've referenced before. And I was kind of around this crew where people could be in a circle and say, well, sing me your latest song. And then he would get to me and I don't sing and I wouldn't know what to play and I thought I needed to play with someone. And I had this kind of, I didn't feel sufficient is my point. And Margot helped me realize that it's really, it's just not true that with instrumental music, you have a freedom to access emotions in an epic. Emotions in an abstract way that is very liberating. It's not less than, it's not, it's not like, oh, this would be great if only I was saying what I was really talking about. She's helped me see that this is, this is an, it's, it's an ethereal realm for which I'm, I'm devoted. It's a good lesson. It's a good lesson. So she's never been like, your song is great if only it had lyrics and it would really, you know, she's got it. She accepts them. She accepts them. She says, no, that's great. And if anything, she's been like, do the things that you couldn't do with a singer now. Play with time and emotion and expectation because you don't have to deal with this other stuff. It's great. It's a very gracious way of phrasing. And it's helped me. What a lovely relationship. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm telling you, I learned a lot, I learned a lot from her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎 That was cool. Oh, that was good. Like your form, cause your form. Well, then I forgot how to play a blues form. I did too. I literally forgot. Well, cause your form's very clear. Like what this is is its own thing. I was like, well maybe we were there. I know. We were just talking about this other day. I mean, we both know that the blues form is not one thing. Yeah, that's true. It's whatever you wanted to be at any given time. But it was funny cause like, I forgot how to play a blues form just now completely. And when I was practicing it earlier, I also forgot how to play a blues form. So I was like, maybe it doesn't fit in that. Maybe you're onto something. Maybe it's a, what's that one? What's that trouble in mind? Is that that one that's like an eight bar blues? Yeah, blues form is real relative in my thinking. So I like what we did. And then when it did go to blues, it was like, yeah, this. Yeah, okay. You landed on it and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, that's perfect. No, you followed me when I was lost to the ways. No, no, no. You know it was your solo. Sorry about that. Listen, we're together. That's a great tune. Is that on a record? You got that on? No, no, it's just on my voice memo. No, that's fun. Thanks for doing this. It was awesome. Thanks for letting me do it with you. You did the perfect subject. Thanks so much. This was a blast. It's really great. Thank you for having me. I hope we can play again. Yeah, let's do more. It'd be so fun. Let's play. Let's play. We can do it. I can see it. I know we can. And I know we will. We will. The line is open. Yeah, the line is open. All right. Thanks, Norm. Oh, thanks so much for listening. That was great. That was Julian Lodge. He's so fun to play with. Yeah, and he's so curious as a musician. Yeah, he is. That's the best. That's my favorite kind of musician. And very calm. He has a very calming energy. Yeah, I felt zenned out. If you liked the show today and want to know what we played, the first song was a song written by Julian that I added some sneaky lyrics to in the end called Day in Age from the album World's Fair from 2015. The second song we did was called Heartache, written by Lowell George and Ivan Olds. I know this song from a YouTube version that was a demo by Lowell George and Linda Ronstadt. It's also on his album Thanks I'll Eat It Here from 1979. Third song we did was called Hemnel from Julian's album Speak to Me 2024. And the last song we did was a song of mine that I wrote a long time ago called Preschool Blues. Special thanks to Julian Lodge for joining us today. We'll be back next week with Josh Hami. Nora Jones is playing along as a production of I Heart Podcasts. I'm your host, Nora Jones. Today's episode was recorded by Matt Maranelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, edited by Sarah Oda, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Fry, photography by Shervin Lenez, and produced by me and Sarah Oda. Executive producers Aaron Wong-Coffman and Jordan Runtog, marketing lead Queen Aniki. Thanks so much for listening. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.